np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned

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TDK

dream solister
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#1



Hi everyone, the OU tiering Council has decided to test Hoopa-Unbound this round.

With its incredible offensive stats, an extremely spammable STAB, and access to a diverse physical and special movepool, Hoopa has risen to become a dominant force in the metagame since its release last year. Hoopa, with its versatile movepool, can viably run physical, special, and mixed sets, making it even more difficult to switch into if the set hasn't been revealed. Hoopa even has access to an extremely powerful Dark move, Hyperspace Fury, allowing it to hit through both Protect and Substitute.

Thanks to its stats and movepool, Hoopa has virtually no safe switchins. Hoopa is more than capable of nailing common Dark resists, such as Clefable and Keldeo, and removing them from the picture with the appropriate move. Even incredibly bulky Pokemon such as Hippowdon, Mega Scizor, and Assault Vest Tornadus-T, are all unable to switch into Hoopa due to its sheer power. Even Pokemon such as Klefki and Mandibuzz, which can shrug off both of Hoopa's STAB attacks, can't take two hits with the appropriate coverage.

Common Pokemon that can shrug off attacks on the physical end, such as Garchomp and Landorus-T, aren't capable of taking repeated hits from Hoopa, making them nothing more than a one time switchin. Hoopa is also often seen running Dark Pulse, thus making both Garchomp and Landorus-T wary of switching in on a possible Choice Specs/Life Orb Dark Pulse.

Hoopa most commonly runs a specially oriented set nowadays, mainly with Choice Specs. Special Hoopa, unlike physical, is capable of nailing both physically and specially bulky Pokemon, thanks to Psyshock. Between Hoopa's two STABs alone, virtually every non Dark-type will either get knocked out in one or two shots. Specially bulky Pokemon such as Chansey and Tornadus-T aren't able to take Psyshocks from Hoopa, due to Hoopa's tremendous power and their frailty on the physical end.

Although Hoopa has plenty of huge advantages, it has some fatal flaws. Its sits at a poor speed tier for a Pokemon with such frailty on the physical end, thus making it highly susceptible to common priority users and many fast physical attackers. Hoopa's weakness to U-turn also poses a huge issue, as every possible U-turn user either KOs Hoopa or gets a free switch as Hoopa is forced out. Pursuit users, such as Tyranitar and Weavile, also are quite a nuisance to Hoopa, either trapping Choiced sets or forcing a prediction with non-Choiced sets.

Although it has its flaws, Hoopa-U is quite capable of overcoming them. Pursuit users can't safely switch into Hoopa and also will struggle to trap non-Choiced sets. Although Hoopa will be forced out vs U-turn Pokemon, there are plenty of teammates for Hoopa that will let it come back in again safely and net another KO. Hoopa, even with its poor speed and defense, is more than capable of pressuring even fast paced teams.

Hoopa is a huge restriction in terms of teambuilding; considering that not only the fact that there are very few reliable Dark resists, but also the fact that none can safely switch into Hoopa. Hoopa lacks any true counters, making it impossible to prepare for and thus worthy of a suspect test.

For this round we are going to have two alternative ways to qualify for voting:
  1. Laddering: you will need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 (or more) in a /!\ game limit of 70 games /!\ on the OU Suspect Test Ladder (in which Hoopa-Unbound is banned), that will be implemented very soon.
  2. Suspect Tours: check McMeghan's thread.

The suspect test will last for approximately 2 weeks and will end on Monday April 11th. The vote will take place in roughly one week after that.

Use this thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact AM, boudouche, M Dragon, McMeghan, PDC, TDK, and/or Tesung through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

Keep in mind that, as usual, it's going to be up to the playerbase to decide the outcome of this test. Good luck and have fun laddering!

/!\ Rules for posting in this thread /!\
  • No one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.

Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you will need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

Here are some sample values:
Code:
GXE N
100 30
90 41
85 52
80 70
75 112
70 324
 
#3
YES, THE MENACE OF STALL (and bulkier archetypes that lack fast Pokemon) IS GONNA DIE! (maybe/probably)

If you couldn't tell, I am glad it is being suspected as even in a meta without Hoopa-u building these bulkier stall / semi-stall teams will still be a nightmare. My perspective is that having a Pokemon that regardless of what you run on your team is likely to destroy all life is plain stupid, sure you can outplay it but for these bulkier teams even outplaying hoopa-u is likely to result in massive damage or just delaying the inevitable aka trading. This is only further amplified when you consider how synergistic these teams are, where taking out even a single Pokemon can mean losing the entire match due how exceedingly offensive the OU meta is.

 
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#5
Thank god. Honestly this shit is a joke and I'm appalled that it was ever allowed in ou. First things first it's base offenses are stupidly high. What that means is that it 2hkos the entire tier no matter the mon, given the appropriate coverage moves. The common argument is the 4ms, but that doesn't mean shit when you literally have to guess correctly or sack 1-2 mons. Think mandi can take it, bopped by tbolt. Think hippo can sponge, "oh man it does 70% golly gee it does so much." Honestly, any non mega mon with offenses like that should be an auto suspect , but anyway.Secondly people say it's frail and dies to uturn. First off, what dumbass is purposely keeping it in on a uturn. Secondly hoopa u un-invested sponges every non super spa in OU and can retaliate if scarf or faster. Think iI'm kidding, it's base defenses are 80/130 for spdef. That's a fucking latias With base 160/170 offenses. This shit needs to go. It's barely a fucking pokemon, this is like straight out of final fantasy game. Please ou, get this shit out of here. It's a joke.
 
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Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#6
I knew it lol, (this better not be an April Fool's joke...) anyways let me leave some thoughts...

Hoopa-U is a monster and probably the best wallbreaker and overall offensive powerhouse in OU atm due to its amazing offenses coupled with its equally amazing movepool. Dark/Psychic is also pretty good offensively and allows it to break down some of the most common types in OU such as Psychic, Fighting, and Ghost. The Specs set is really what can push it to be broken in my eyes, as there is a limited array of specially defensive walls that can repeatedly switch into STAB Dark Pulse and Psychic coming off of 170 Sp.Atk while also being potentially worn down by hazards. Band and mixed LO are also very good, but not as impressive as Specs imo.

There will be many people saying that its low base defense and average speed stop it from being consistently amazing, however there are already many offensive VolTurn teams that allow Hoopa-U to gain a lot of free switchins in which your opponent would basically decide what would get 2HKOed at that point.

I am still undecided and would need to see how the metagame develops without it to really see how things flourish, but at this point, Hoopa-U's presence in OU is being held by a very tight strand in my eyes.

Haunter better not resurrect from the dead to pull a April 2015 on us again... I am literally scared cause I wanted this to happen for so long :'(
 
#8
I really hate this suspect feel like there are more important/worthy things to test such as...Clefable,Torn-T,Manaphy,Scald....

I being the ambassador of hoopa-u sense day 1 will ofc be voting no ban but not because I love it but because it isn't broken.

This suspect can be considered like lando t suspect..the possibilities(side note: can't believe specs is all of a sudden being used) it has changed the meta sense the goth suspect into a more offense approach but has most definitely not bought a end to bulky teams. Teams have stayed high on ladder with ttar(to remove) and mandibuzz to take hits. I feel like I don't have the best way with typing out words so won't go to much into this. Just please don't ban hoopa I don't want more balance/stall malarkey _._

#WeavileStall
 
#9
alright so this suspect could've been seen from a mile away because hoopa's just been picking up a ton of usage lately and its newly discovered specs set is pretty insane, but i'm not for banning hoopa. even though its one of the single best offensive mons in the tier, i just can't think it's banworthy at all. it's a defensive liability on a ton of teams, with its really exploitable typing and horrible physical bulk along with barely passable speed. the only saving grace defensively is its solid spdef which lets it live a couple hits like latios' draco and specs kelds hydro which is pretty solid but i mean, given the ubiquity of sand and spikes in ou right now, is hoopa really gonna be reliably living these hits? other than that, hoopa is just so weak to a bunch of shit defensively, given all the priority in the tier, all the faster pursuiters running around, and in general annoying fast mons like torn which can just pick it off easily. don't get me wrong though, hoopa is definitely the single most powerful offensive mon in the tier, but when it can't blow past its checks or counters, it struggles so badly with them, ttar/weav/bish all pretty much easily stop hoopa once they're in on a move it resists, and even if hoopa is firing off focus blasts, teams should be running something to handle that.

so i've been playing a lot of balance on the ladder lately (i know it's ladder, but still, it's near the top so there's some competence here), and basically i've just been scouting hoopas move by foddering the least valuable mon to get ttar in, and just removing hoopa from play there. it's a massive strain on building, but really, its effectiveness is massively exaggerated in-game because i feel it gets dispatched by pursuit insanely quickly or it just gets pressed heavily by faster mons and hazards. as a balance user for the time being, i really don't think hoopa is that problematic. it's very centralising for building, but ask yourself this: is tyranitar a bad pokemon? there is little wrong with centralisation as long as its making actual viable shit better, not like greninja where it brought up p2 and empoleon to ou relevance.

but yeah i don't think this mon is broken at all, given the insane vulnerability to common shit in the tier. it's an insanely potent offensive mon, but its flaws help prevent it from being banworthy in my eyes + it's easy to keep in check. this is clearly evident given the constant success of balance and stall even with hoopa running around.

with that in mind, i will play around on the suspect ladder and get reqs but im hugely convinced my opinion isn't going to change.
 
#10
#KillITWithFire

Hoopa can do anything! This monster upon release, almost entirely invalidated a play style by itself. Stall (Yes I'm aware people hate it) is forced to run fast things than OHKO it, or Mandibuzz (which dies to Thunderbolt or Hidden Power [ice]) and yes, it keeps stall at bay, but there are other stall breakers! That said, Its also a pain for offense, it is invited in on the Latis, free to fire off a strong STAB, or set trick room and start killing you, it also kills Mega Diancie with hyperspace hole on the turn of mega evolution. Yes it has a 4x Bug weakness but really, will it stay in on Scizor?

On a side note, thunder wave support from klefki makes it easy to get the kills.
 
#11
When I got home, the first thing I thought when I hopped onto Smogon was: "I'm pretty sure that there's gonna be a Hoopa-U suspect test, and, prior to that, there'll be a thread in the Policy Review forum like the Mega Sableye one". I was wrong about the whole policy review thing, but whaddya know.

Regardless, I do support a Hoopa-U ban. Sure, it has the Defense stat of a wet paper bag, and a horrid Speed stat, but there are zero switch-ins for this thing because of the sheer amount of coverage this thing gets. Scizor? Fire Punch. Fairies? Gunk Shot. Mandibuzz? Thunderbolt. Tyranitar? Drain Punch or Focus Blast. Landorus-T? Doesn't like taking a special move, especially if it's the rare HP Ice. Pretty much everything in the tier is 2HKO'd by this monster of a genie, which nearly negates an entire playstyle (stall). Yes, it can be played around, but it requires heavy predicting, and, in the hands of an experienced player, they might outpredict you (for example: you send in a Tyranitar hoping to stomach a Psychic or a Dark Pulse, but they Focus Blast you and boom, there goes your Hoopa-U "check"). Aside from the Choice Specs set, which has been getting a LOT of hype, it can either go the physical route with a Choice Band, or redeem its middling speed with a Choice Scarf. The latter Choice item also allows it to outspeed everything in the tier barring Mega Alakazam, Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill (who can't switch in at all, not to mention Alakazam can't OHKO it without running the rare Signal Beam) and most other Choice Scarf users.

I'm not going to deny Hoopa has its flaws. Like I said, it has bad Defense and sits at a poor Speed tier (80), leaving it prone to being revenge killed. Even without the middling speed stat (especially if it has a scarf equipped), it absolutely hates priority, and since pretty much every form of priority is physical, it's fairly easy to revenge kill. However, like I said, it has zero switchins, meaning you'll often have to sack a mon to get your revenge killer onto the field safely.

All in all, Hoopa definitely has a decent chunk of flaws, but the sheer pressure it puts on teams definitely redeems these flaws. Please send it to the depths of the hell that is Ubers, where it will have to suffer even worse low-ladder players than on the OU ladder.
 
#13
While Hoopa-U is an insane offensive Pokemon, I wouldn't go and say that it is particularly broken.
Say, a mixed life orb set generally goes with a Hasty nature and puts his base 60 defense at a meager 140, leaving a revenge killer to just end it, or at least forcing a switch, especially with a Hyperspace Fury or two. Choice-locked moves can be circumvented with loads of pokemon, most notably Clefable taking well a Hyperspace Fury and threatening out with a potential 2HKO from moonblast, I believe (while still fearing a Gunk Shot but as I said, it can all be circumvented with an appropiate switch-in).
It's a monster, yes, but like many monsters, they all have a crippling weakness that can be easily exploited.
So, I'm saying Do Not Ban.
 
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#14
Furthering Shadestep's response, I am also curious as to why there is a game limit. With all due respect, I feel that it is unfairly biased towards those with higher GXE.

Anyways, while Hoopa certainly is a devastating, unpredictable wallbreaker, I feel that its physical frailness and speed tier (scarf with base 80 speed really isn't that fast) balance it out. Furthermore, its susceptibility towards physical priority (Azumarill's aqua jet, CB Scizor's bullet punch, Weavil's ice shard) in tandem to its weakness towards faster, physical threats (scarf lando's u-turn, for instance). While it certainly is the nightmare of stall teams, it certainly isn't broken. Do not ban.
Thanks for reading.

Also seeing how a GXE of 80 is needed to even have a say is a bit ridiculous. There's a difference between some totally random noob (50-60 GXE) and an average player (myself -- ~65 GXE). It seems as if only the "elite" players have a say in this matter, and seeing how this effects the whole community, it is unfair in my view. Finally, compared to the last suspect test where 75 games were needed, 70 are needed now? Why so?

Anyways enjoy:
 
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#15
The rush to post begins: Hoopa-U is not like most suspects we see. It's not a terrifying sweeper like Mega Mawile or an overly centralizing figure like Aegislash (In fact its not centralizing at all because it doesn't cause usage shifts through its presence in the metagame). The main problem with Hoopa-U is that it is unhealthy for the metagame. It has zippo true counters, which puts a lot of pressure on balance and stall teams, and requires them to have to go out of their way to play around Hoopa-U. Yes, it is possible to play around this Pokemon, but the metagame would be much better with it gone.

A nice invalid argument I had read in the OU Chat stated that "People who want Hoopa banned are people who like stall." Yes, the Hoopa-U ban will make stall (and balance) better. However, an argument I can see coming up a lot in the future is that stall was mediocre enough to begin with before Hoopa-U entered the scene. The Shadow Tag ban had injured stall, as threats like Manaphy could not be trickscarfed anymore and run rampant on stall. If Hoopa-U were to be banned in this suspect, stall would not become an issue, because of the numerous other threats that exist in the metagame. As it is, there is a surplus of stall threats, and I would like to see the numbers cut down. I had good timing actually, as just yesterday I wrote a guide describing multiple different methods of defeating stall, so I'm sure stall will stay in a repressed state even if Hoopa-U were to be banned.

Edit: I mentioned 40 other stallbreakers besides Hoopa-U in that guide by the way, just wanted to put that out there. Stall won't run rampant. Let's cut the stallbreaker surplus just a little.

Sorry for anything wrong in my rushed thoughts. I might add more to this later. I'm sort of split (because it's not broken in the traditional sense that we are used to), but at the moment I'm leaning towards ban.
 
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#16
First off, I'd like to introduce this post by saying I'm not sure why Hoopa-U defaulted to OU upon release in the first place. It has a BST of 700 680, and I thought all non-Mega, non-Slaking, non-Regigigas Pokemon with a BST of 670 or greater were default Uber and tested down, not default OU and tested up.

Regardless, this thing is just fucking broken. Specs Hoopa OHKOes/2HKOes the entire tier, even Chansey as it's 2HKOed by Psyshock after Stealth Rock and still has a near 100% chance to be 2HKOed without Stealth Rock. As far as I'm concerned, stall is pretty much dead with something that has precisely zero switch-ins lurking in the tier. This seems vaguely like the ORAS Greninja metagame in which you basically had to run offense, and even that isn't safe as Specs Hoopa can readily switch in on Latios's Psyshock and essentially get a free kill, much like how Greninja still outsped damn near everything on offense that didn't run a Choice Scarf. If you're voting no ban on Hoopa-U, then if your reasoning is because you want a stall-less metagame, at least be honest about it, but if that is your reasoning, I don't know why you voted to ban Greninja and Landorus-I because they did basically the same thing (i.e. "no switch-ins"). As far as I can tell, Hoopa-U should never have been allowed into the tier in the first place, but it definitely shouldn't continue to be given that it invalidates an entire playstyle by itself.

Ban
 
#17
Hoopa-U is not too good. Against offensive teams it is not too big a threat and even bulky teams can play around it if they have a Dark-type and a Fairy-type. Full stall loses to it but it loses to other things as well. Hoopa-U is a Mega Gardevoir that doesn't occupy the Mega slot basically (which is why Mega Gardevoir's usage has declined). I feel like if you wanted to ban Hoopa you also have to ban Mega Sableye. Since Mega Sableye was not banned, I don't think Hoopa should be banned either. You want to keep out hazards? Fine, but give me a spammable wallbreaker to play with. I also said that back in the Mega Sableye test, I think they should either both stay or both go.
 
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toshimelonhead

Honey Badger don't care.
is a Tiering Contributor
#18
I didn't appreciate Hoopa-U until the Specs set and then I realized damn, it can run Specs, Band, Scarf, or Mixed Life Orb effectively and everything in the meta is going to be weak to at least one of those sets. Mandibuzz used to be a switch before the Specs set started running Thunderbolt. Klefki is my go-to Hoopa-U counter on balanced / stall teams as it resists both STABs, but even the Specs set 2HKOs it with Focus Miss (and Banded Fire Punch OHKOs). If the only way to stop a mon is through revenge killing, it has to go. The Pursuiters aren't even safe switch ins because of Dark Pulse, Drain Punch, and Focus Miss. Then if something successfully survives a Hoopa-U attack, Hoopa-U can switch out without much consequence; it's not hard to figure out to switch to Rotom-Wash because Band Talonflame is coming to U-Turn or Brave Bird you into submission. I'm leaning towards ban until proven otherwise.
 
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#19
Been waiting a while for this one. It was inevitable. I agree with every single reason to suspect test Hoopa-U. It's just non-counterable. Hoopa-Unbound does have boundless potential if you catch my drift. I think that every single viable set Hoopa-U can run is equally dangerous. Hoopa isn't necessarily hard to check because of the poorer speed tier at base 80 and the miserable base 60 defense, but after a player's physical attackers are gone... Well good luck breaking that natural special bulk and decent HP without a signal beam or a strong fairy move like Moonblast from Mega Diancie. You know, this kind of reminds me when Lando-I was in the tier. Remember how very few things in the tier could viably switch into it? Well Hoopa-U is not at all different. And in all honesty, I never understood the big deal with pokemon that have no switch ins about a year ago. Ever since Hoopa was released, I immediately understood why it's a problem. Things like this cause serious detrimental effects to team building, as we have to have at least 2 answers to Hoopa-U on our teams if we expect to keep it from simply coming in, clicking a move, and leaving... Only to return again and beat the crap out of us with that Hyperspace Fury or whatever other move it wants. This thing is incredibly dangerous. There is also a scarfed set to make up for the poor speed tier, turning it into an exceptionally nice cleaner or revenge killer. It has so many sets, even though they are all similar, that you just have to prepare for multiple sets and not the actual thing that Hoopa-U is. For instance, It's hard to deal with all of Landorus-T's sets if you think about every set specifically; however, if you have a way to check or counter something like Garchomp, which shares the ice weakness, then you should be able to do the same with most Lando-T. You can't really apply the logic to Hoopa-U... I can drop a draco on Lando-T and a number of other things with Latios, but Hoopa actually has tons of special bulk...
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now I'm not saying things like a matchup, but I'm just proving my point. Hoopa can't be dealt with from typical "nukes" like other common mons are dealt with at times. I'm pretty sure that in practice whenever I've used Hoopa-U or had to face it, that diabolical monster has nearly always gotten an equal 1 for 1 trade at the very very VERY least. Most of the time it's 2 or 3 things Hoopa kills before fainting itself. We'll see how the suspect test goes. I hope everyone enjoys the ladder and thinks long and hard about Hoopa. It isn't necessarily the easiest pokemon to fit into a team. Like... I'm not just going to smack it on a team because it's strong. It does have to fit the team playstyle in some way as well as help the team function as an overall unit. Anyway, I'm gonna keep my post as brief as possible and just say that I'm leaning towards a ban.
 
#20
Also, I'd like to bring up the argument about something along the lines of "If you voted no ban on Mega Sableye, why do you want to vote ban on Hoopa-U?"

This is a false equivalency. There are plenty of Stealth Rock setters that can beat Mega Sableye: Clefable, SD Lum Garchomp, Mold Breaker Excadrill, offensive Heatran as a few examples, most of which you're not even running specifically to beat Mega Sableye, and even the ones that can't directly beat it can at least wear it down by chipping at it by, I don't know, attacking, because I hope you're not stupid enough to try to set up Stealth Rock on an impending Mega Sableye switch-in. Also, and this was argued in Mega Sableye's suspect, Mega Sableye at least has an argument to stay in that it keeps spike-stacking from dominating the tier. Find me something positive Hoopa-U contributes to the metagame.

If you want your Mega Sableye re-suspect, call for a fucking retest, but don't try to use it as some kind of argument against banning Hoopa-U.

Seth_ so your argument is "everyone run Scizor to beat Hoopa-U?" that'd be like arguing "everyone run Scarf Genesect to beat Soul Dew Latis" a generation ago. If anything, you've only proven how centralizing Hoopa-U is.
 

Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
is a Pre-Contributor
#21
It's common knowledge that choice specs hoopa has almost no switch-ins, and you can beat most of the metagame with your stabs alone (you're not overreliant on focus blast for coverage), and it has no switch-ins to just one set. While some other suspects like mega mawile and greninja got the boot because they were strong against every playstyle (offense to stall and everything in between), they still had to pick and choose their moves to perform better or worse. Tailoring your moves to fit your team is not necessarily bad, but it's always better to have one set that handles everything either way. And this is what Hoopa-u does. It performs its role as a wallbreaker perfectly in just one set. It can't be compared to BW hydreigon or early ORAS ninja because they couldn't cover everything with just one set. Specs hoopa does. What's even worse is that dark pulse and psyshock are moves with 100 accuracy and plenty of pp, they cannot be stalled out by recovery and they cannot miss. They are incredibly consistent and powerful, and the risk of clicking dark pulse when the opp doesn't have a ttar or terrakion on the opposing side is almost always worth the reward because your "resist" is not switching in again.

It does have a weaker matchup vs offense, as almost every wallbreaker does, but it's definitely blown up. It's decent sdef will let it tank lati dracos and check electrics and check zam, it's inaccurate to say that it brings no defensive capability to the team. It is not slow for a wallbreaker, 80 base speed is fast enough to outpace nearly every fatmon in ou. And scarf sets are more than capable of actually cleaning offense teams, no team can rest easy when facing this thing no matter what you carry. When a pokemon can effectively use choice band, choice scarf, and choice specs that's generally a red flag :L (think genesect) Fuck even with scarftar running around, Hoopa-u can run an EV spread to live pursuit from scarftar with enough hp to come back in on rocks for another kill too (it's only <60 evs in defense and hardly subtracts from your power)

We've also made some bans based on overcentralization (aegislash). Hoopa's presence necessitates scarftar in nearly every stall or semi-stall build; if you dont have a ttar you're basically considered weak to hoopa-u. Ttar clearly isn't a counter either, hoopa gets plenty of options for fighting coverage, and we've NEVER seen scarf ttar on full stall before. Stall being forced to run sub-par options in order to not get massacred by a threat is always always a red flag.

What makes it comparable some other shit we've banned before like ninja and lando-i is that it doesn't take up a mega slot! Some wallbreakers like mega hera and mega chomp still have some switch-ins here and there but a non-mega flawless wallbreaker such as hoopa-u frees up teambuilding way more. And even though it has zero switch-ins to just choice specs, it can run other sets like av, scarf, sash, lo, or band to suit the teams needs; it's not a one-trick pony in the slightest. It boasts the same level of versatility as shit we've banned before while still having no switch-ins to just one set 3 moves, and it dominates what ever kind of playstyle it wants or fit any team's needs with its items and moveslots.

Right now, i'm leaning towards a Ban
 
#22
Seth_ so your argument is "everyone run Scizor to beat Hoopa-U?" that'd be like arguing "everyone run Scarf Genesect to beat Soul Dew Latis" a generation ago. If anything, you've only proven how centralizing Hoopa-U is.
My man, please don't imply things I did not say.

First of all, scizor isn't even most common pursuit trapper. What about Ttar, Mmetagross, MAerodactyl, Bisharp, Weavile... You have variety off choices. Every single one of them does heavy damage to Hoopa. And pursuit trapers aren't even bad in thhis game. They are good for other things (namely OMGSOBROKEN Torn-t).

And it is not even only way to beat hoopa.

So running one move on one moon does not seems to be do so bad.
 
#23
As with most of the other suspect tests I'd like to ponder whether or not it's a legitimate threat that would need to be assessed when compared to some of the other aforementioned Pokémon like Clefable and Lando-T (personally I don't like Lando-T because of it's common repetitive nature in OU).

Regarding Hoopa-Unbound, I don't think it's too broken of a Pokémon in my humble opinion. Maybe this comes from a guy who usually packs a Hoopa check without realizing it (I do it a lot more than I would take credit for) although in comparison to the other suspect tests, I am unsure about this one. Heck, I'm still reeling from the Mega Lucario and Aegislash bans in the beginning of XY.

Hoopa-U is an interesting case. It shares a lot of similar qualities to another similar mixed attacker named Greninja with the 4 moveslot syndrome that this gargantuan holds. Only real thing it lacks is the Speed and physical defense, but otherwise you got a solid sweeper on your hands. I never played against the Specs variant of Hoopa-U, but something fired off from that high a base SpA w/Specs is gonna hit most things hard nonetheless.

However, there ARE drawbacks to a Specs set. Namely Choice-Lock. I see this new set being most of the rage on here, so I'll assume it as a bread and butter set. You can effectively check it on a switch-in with a decently fast physical attacker.

This thing also gets absolutely destroyed by U-turn. If you wanna beat it effectively, you can run Scarf Scizor (many Hoopa-U are not Scarfed usually) and Lando-T. And some calcs.

252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Hoopa Unbound: 392-464 (107.6 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And that's a fully invested neutral natured one. Pretty much no one is gonna run that, b/c it will detract from Hoopa's firepower. Also for fact Lando-T likes Scarf sets usually and is in the top 3 of OU usage.

Other relatively common stuff can kill it fairly easily as well. Mostly physical attackers though. For instance.

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 297-349 (98.6 - 115.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Garch can get a nice chunk out of it regardless of the set.

Hoopa-U does not have any real counters persay, but I'd say it's fair in the checks department as it dies to most physical moves, and unlike Greninja it does not have the natural Speed to back it up without costing an item slot.

I'll say Don't Ban for now until I play more games against this monster.
 

Aberforth

Californium is PoMMan now.
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#24
Offense fests aren't actually indicative of a fantastic meta in many of our eyes. Sacking a pokemon to revenge kill something is not something that people who play slower playstyles (balance/stall) are comfortable with because often, they will actually need every pokemon on their team. Or at least, to the point where losing a single pokemon can have a notable effect and put them in a much worse position later. My answer to a wallbreaker should not be "sack something and win a 50/50 with you choice scarf mon you'd never consider if it wasn't for this one mon", that is an example of a wallbreaker simply being too strong.
 
#25
Definitely worth a suspect test, undetermined if it needs to be banned yet, but leaning more towards it. Hoopa-U has such great variety in it's movepool and the sets it can run to make it a threat immediately when it hits the field (Specs set, mixed LO, Band, Scarf, Sub NP). This is a problem when it comes to in game when you have to figure out that first switch into Hoopa-U. If you switch in lando-T on Hoopa-U think it will be physical and it turns out to be specs than you will be at a state where you have to either sac your Lando or you have to let another pokemon taking another big hit. Or if you have a chansey hoping its the specs set but ends up being the physical variant than your Chansey will be severely wakened and you will be at the same situation as the previous example. This can make teambuilding stressful as your go to hoopa checks can end up not checking it at all than you are at an uphill battle. It being pared with pokemon with access to volt switch and U-turn makes it able to safely switch into.

On the other hand as well, the speed really hurts for hoopa, as well as the low defense stat. While hoopa can easily pick up a kill, it leaves itself very vulnerable to pursuit trapping or for another big hitter with higher speed to come in on to revenge (example Char X). It also doesn't preform well against hyper offensive but as a good balance/stall matchup.

I'm gonna get reqs first before making any final decisions, but im leaning more towards BAN atm.
 
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