np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

[McMeghan]

Hey there guys, the OU Council has decided to suspect test Greninja this round. Greninja got a few interesting toys in ORAS, namely Gunk Shot and Low Kick, which allow it to get past some of its best checks in XY, like Azumarill and Chansey. Its formidable Speed along with the boost from Protean and Life Orb make Greninja incredibly hard to play around for both offensive and defensive teams and it puts a massive strain on team building. On the other hand, Greninja is incredibly frail and, in a such offensive based metagame like the current ORAS OU one, it has hard times switching in and is relatively easy to revenge kill. It should also be noted that it suffers from 4th moveslot syndrome, being unable to run: Hydro Pump, Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse and Hidden Power Fire/Grass on the same set.

Use the suspect thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact McMeghan, Aldaron, gr8astard, M Dragon or myself through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in the thread.

In order to vote, you'll need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 or more on the OU Suspect Test ladder, in which Greninja will be banned, that will be implemented very soon. Please note that this rating may not be the final rating required, and we reserve the right to increase or decrease the requirements based upon the first week of laddering. The suspect test will last approximately 2 weeks and will end on Sunday 4 January 2015, 11:59pm EST. The vote will take place in no more than a week after that.
Remember that this is a Suspect Test and that, as of right now, nothing is set in stone. Whether Greninja will continue to be OU or not is entirely up to the playerbase.

We would like to stress that we never have nor ever will claim these are Nintendo-official rules; they are Smogon-official rules that are ONLY enforced in OUR environments. We feel there are many ways to enjoy Pokemon, whether singles, doubles, online, or wifi, and we don't feel any one method or metagame is "better" than another (though we obviously emphasize certain ones).
Finally, it's extremely important to note that YOU have the DIRECT ability to influence these changes; simply play on the suspect ladders, qualify, and vote. The algorithm that determines qualification credentials emphasizes BOTH experience and quality of play, so you don't need to be a "smogon elite" with a 90% win percentage to qualify (if you have a lower win %, you just need to play more games).

Good luck and have fun laddering!

Addendum:
as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

Here are some sample values:

GXE N
100 30
90 41
85 52
80 70
75 112
70 324

Credit for the illustration goes to anundeadboy.

Keep the discussion in this thread civil and avoid making one liners or uninformed posts. Failing to comply with this request will result into your post being deleted and infracted. Thanks for the cooperation.

READ THIS THREAD BEFORE POSTING

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ad-before-posting-in-suspect-threads.3522684/

 

[trc]

I guess I'll repost my post from the main thread.

I think Greninja isn't good for the tier. Before ORAS, Greninja was one of the defining threats of the metagame, considered by some to even be broken then, thanks to its large movepool, Protean, and amazing Speed, which allowed it to threaten offensive teams as it lacked offensive switch-ins. However, offensive teams usually packed a check like AV Azumarill or Clefable which could take advantage of Greninja's inability to 2HKO them by getting a free turn (well, in Clefable's sake it had to Soft-Boiled). In ORAS, with Gunk Shot, these two counters are invalidated AND Greninja now has a move to hit specially bulky Pokemon with, such as Chansey, which is 2HKOed by Gunk Shot after some hazards. Even nicher counters like Empoleon are wrecked by Low Kick, Low Kick the move that means that the opponent cannot even rely on a miss against their Heatran or Tyranitar. Greninja has no offensive switch-ins now, and its best answers on defensive teams are Tentacruel, which can lose to the rare but viable Extrasensory, SpD Alomomola, and Porygon2, a niche choice. Because of this, Greninja is very difficult to deal with for certain playstyles.

In mid-XY, offensive teams were typically weak to Greninja, an example being the many Mega Charizard Y teams running around the ladder and in tournaments. Now, offensive teams don't have the worst time against it. They typically pack a scarfer to outspeed it, for example, Scarf Landorus-T, the most common scarfer. Full stall is fine too, they usually feature bulky Pokemon like 252/252+ Def Chansey which can get stall out its LO recoil. With Toxic and hazards, Greninja is usually dealt with reasonably well. Balance teams however, usually use cores that have a big problem with Greninja, and it's hard to mitigate this. I think Greninja is limiting the growth of balance and bulky offensive teams and I don't think this is healthy for the meta.

Also, on a different note, I don't see how anyone can actually ladder for this suspect test with the ridiculous amount of lag going on. Not the usual cancel button lag, even though that's worse than usual, but with the timer button. So far I have lost about 4 games (in very few played) from simply making a move, having the timer count down but not register that I've made a move, and then I timeout, and right after I lose and the ladder is updated, my move goes through and the turn occurs, but the game is over. I don't see how anyone can ladder with this happening.

 

[Destiny Device]

Also reposting mine because I feel like it will eventually be lost in the middle of all the posts going on the regular thread.

In my opinion, Greninja should be banned because...

1) it has an incredible Movepool and extremely versatile moveslots,
Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Hidden Power Fire, Grass Knot, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Hidden Power Grass. Greninja can just run any combination of those moves (bar HP Fire + HP Grass, of course) to defeat whatever it wants to. Of course it can only run four of those, but your opponent has no way of telling which moves you're running at all, and there are no restrictions between Greninja movesets. While everything else just runs STABs + coverage, Greninja has 4 STABs and 4 powerful coverage moves which it can choose freely. Each set has very different checks. I will talk more about this on 3).

2) it is almost impossible to switch into with offensive teams,
This one is pretty obvious: most of the time you can't switch in on Greninja without running things that simply don't fit in on offensive teams, namely Specially Defensive Alomomola and Chansey, or "passive" things, such as Klefki, who completely kill your momentum. If you allow Greninja to come in, well, you got to sack something. While that may also apply to some other threats, such as Kyurem-B, Greninja is also hard to revenge kill thanks to its great speed tier. Not even HO teams enjoy sacking members like that. Sure, Greninja is frail and can't switch in safely, but U-turn and Volt Switch are far from uncommon, it is not that frail (I mean, it is frail but Water/Dark gives it a plenty of resistences as it switches in, and that is all it needs) and Greninja can just be played aggressively and try to get in as an opponent sets Stealth Rock, recovers or switches. Usually risky, yes, but it will usually pay off for offensive teams. The best an offensive team can do is to play really well and not give Greninja enough room, but that is just way too hard if not borderline impossible. Even so, if you sack something and send in a Scarfer, Greninja can just switch out. You basically need a Scarfer or insanely strong priority user, and none can actually switch in on Greninja.

3) it forces obnoxious "guessing games" at no cost to the Greninja user,
While Dark Pulse/Low Kick/Gunk Shot/Ice Beam is probably the best set, Greninja is still extremely unpredictable. That set is checked by Tentacruel, right? Well, what if it runs Extrasensory? To be honest, it's impossible to counter Greninja as a whole. You can check "Extrasensory-less" Greninja, "Dark Pulse-less" Greninja, "Hidden Power Fire-less" Greninja, etc at best. And while you're there being forced to make risky plays and pulling your hair out (or just praying so your opponent doesn't have the proper coverage to plow through your team), your opponent knows exactly what to do and how to take advantage of the situation. Personally, I've caught myself thinking "ok, I win this match unless that Greninja has Low Kick!" or "ok this team can actually fare -decently- against Greninja unless it carries Extrasensory!" and the likes many times and I know I'm not the only one. That is not a good thing, specially when it's almost impossible to scout four moves against something that is by no means weak. This is particularily annoying for balance and bulky offense. Also, you can't say "you can just predict" because Greninja is in fact the most unpredictable thing I can think of in OU and, even if it wasn't, you just can't rely solely on prediction to defeat such a threat. Most of the time it can just go down to guessing Greninja's full moveset and trying to play around it.

4) it is nearly impossible to counter or check reliably without dedicating two or more teamslots to it,

Hide

Specially Defensive Mega Scizor: loses to Hidden Power Fire and can't switch in on Hydro Pump well.
Ferrothorn: loses to Hidden Power Fire and takes a lot of damage from Low Kick.
Heatran: loses to Hydro Pump and Low Kick.
Mew: loses to Dark Pulse.
Alomomola: most Alomomola teams tend to fare poorly against Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes.
Chansey: extremely passive, most Chansey teams also fare poorly against Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes.
Clefable: loses to Gunk Shot.
Azumarill: loses to Gunk Shot.
Kyurem-Black: loses to Low Kick.
Empoleon: loses to Low Kick.
Tentacruel: loses to Extrasensory.
Rotom-W: loses to Hidden Power Grass and can't switch in well on Dark Pulse.
Mega Diancie: loses to Hydro Pump.
Keldeo: loses to Extrasensory and can't come in on anything without getting into/close to Gunk Shot/Grass Knot/Hidden Power Grass's KO range.

Again, a lot of guessing games. See 3). That wouldn't be an issue if it had 2 or so available moveslots for coverage moves, but it has 4. That said:

5) and it simply destroys balanced builds.
Those balanced "fat" teams rely on team synergy and such to keep threats in check, but that simply won't work with Greninja. Those teams need to play safe most of the time, and losing a team member to an unexpected move can punch enormous holes in such teams' structures. There is no room for mistakes on any remotely passive team, and points 1), 3) and 4) mean those balanced/bulky teams have no way to safely keep Greninja in check.

 

[Jukain]

I posted something that went a bit more into detail about other points regarding this suspect in the other thread, but I would like to reiterate one point. Greninja basically invalidates balanced and even slower offensive builds that opt to play a bit more conservatively, relying on a combination of resists, pivots, and revenge killers to handle opposing threats. The problem is that this type of play simply doesn't work for handling Greninja because it has such a wide array of coverage that it is almost impossible to handle defensively without a full counter. Certain other Pokemon are like this, but the Pokemon that actually counter Greninja, such as Chansey, Alomomola, and Tentacruel, are undesirable for these types of teams because they are passive and thus a momentum sink. Having multiple counters to different variants of Greninja works in theory, but each Pokemon tends to be integral for these teams to function throughout the match, meaning that one correct prediction by the opponent can set you back a long way. Offense has an easier time against Greninja because it tends to pack faster Pokemon, Scarfers, priority, etc that pressure it from switching in and reduce its impact dramatically. Balance doesn't have the option of passive defensive counters or high offensive pressure to counteract Greninja, so it becomes almost impossible to prepare for. This team-restrictive effect that Greninja has on the metagame is entirely unhealthy and makes it worthy of a ban.

 

[henry]

jukain said he would beat me up and take my lunch money if i wrote this

o_o guess i have dissenting opinion but if i were to have to vote right now i'd say no ban, but that might change depending on how much better/worse suspect ladder is. i think that ppl are really overstretching the ability greninja has to break teams down, as almost all teams i've seen built for oras really aren't prepared for meta at all regardless of whether greninja is in the tier or not.

what a ton of people(including myself) seem to assume is that gren is running at least 6-7 moves at once rather than constraining it to its most common set in oras of gunk/low kick/beam/dpulse, albeit leaving few mons that can't be 2hkoed on switch-in/

however similar to how landorus-i was in xy(and still is now to an extent), most team archetypes barring stall/some balance will inevitably have to have offensive checks to greninja(which are much more widespread with introduction of fast newmegas, scarf lando, rise in rock polish sets etc.), as its coverage is difficult but far from impossible to deal with otherwise. however, both of these pokemon have important differences in that greninja is much faster, while landorus-i has the ability to spam insanely strong earth power and luring its checks with knock off.

the main point i'm trying to make is that because the meta at the moment is more offensive doesn't make greninja broken, and a more passively oriented meat doesn't make landorus-i broken, just that right now greninja is better. this may seem obvious, but it's really important in order to understand that the oras meta is still young, and i don't think oras is stable/ will remain even remotely the way it is right now as time goes on, making a greninja ban shortsighted and unnecessary in the grand scheme of the tier.

of course, i could be completely wrong; i usually am.

 

[Lord Wallace]

Aside from being an amazing, unrivaled, late game cleaner, Greninja is the ultimate lure for offense.
Let's say we're in a tourney, both players are of equal skill, Player One brings pretty standard hazard stacking offense, and let's say it's the mid game and all Player One has left on his team is his Ferrothorn to stop Player Two's Agility Mega Metagross (or other physical sweeper, doesnt really matter what it is) from tearing him apart, and it's also his only switch in to Player Two's Greninja because Greninja is a monster.
Player One is a good player, so naturally he will scout for the HP Fire when it comes time to switch in his Ferrothorn on a Hydro Pump as to not lose his only check to Metagross and at the same time not have to sack everytime Greninja switches in. However, Player Two is also a good player, and all he has to do to bring the odds to his side is simply switch out to bluff he doesn't carry HP Fire.
So now the next time Greninja comes face to face with Ferrothorn, Player One is more likely to feel comfortable staying in and removing one of the major threats to his team, and will be promptly sniped by an HP Fire. This example is rather basic but can apply to a variety of pseudo Greninja checks courtesy of Greninja's treasure trove of an offensive movepool, and it makes Greninja an all-solving glue for offensive teams with otherwise crippling weaknesses to X defensive threat(s).
Now Player Two pretty much wins the game because he has removed, rather effortlessly, his opponent's only check to both Greninja and Metagross.
Doesn't this sound familiar? It should, because it's why Mega Gengar was banned, now, Greninja doesn't have STag and I'm not saying it's as borked as MGengar but the slight similarity between the two is definitely there.
Situations like this in which Greninja is unfair alone could justify a ban, but it's really just one of many reasons why it should leave the OU metagame, reasons that I'm sure have already been discussed. It just does too much in one teamslot. It's a sweeper, but it's also a wallbreaker, and a revenge killer, and a lure, and you can lead with it too. Fuck this frog. I'm voting Ban.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Ok I will try and do bullet points here to outline my points better because I usually just ramble on. I will start by saying that I think this is the least threatening suspect we have had for a good while.

-greninja has a standard moveset that is "optimal", all the other moves that people act like are on every greninja, are lures. So greninja has to sacrifice an optimal moveset to typically hit 1-2 mons, this is no different to me than latios, he has an optimal moveset but can also run a lure set like earthquake/hp fire/draco which allows him to easily dismantle common balance cores or it could just lure in mons that think they can safely switchin. This trait is not limited to these two, even thundurus-i can have grass knot/knock off/incinerate/superpower/psychic all of which make him sacrifice his optimal moveset in order to better hit 1-2 mons. This has always been a trait that the top tier offensive pokemon carry and I find it in no way broken.

-All of the arguments are starting under the assumption that greninja got in safely, so in order for this to happen either greninja needs to wait for something on his own team to die, or he needs to be brought in through slow volt-turns.( these are the ways he can SAFELY be brought in you could say he can be brought in through smart double switching and I can just as easily say that I would predict that and OHKO greninja) In the first scenario greninja will come in after one of his own teammates dies and then just attempt to kill off one mon, so even worst case scenario greninja will just end up trading kills. In the second scenario of needing volt-turn, that is requiring team support(albeit easy to find team support in things like rotom and land-t) but it is showing that greninja is not taking on the world by himself. The only time I have struggled against greninja is when I was already struggling in the battle, I never feel like it is unfair I had to sack a mon I feel like I didnt play as well as I should and thats why he won.

-I dont ever feel like I am at an immediate disadvantage just because I see greninja on the other team. Granted I typically play HO, but I have seen people vastly overstate greninja's capabilities against offense, I mean every offensive teams has mons that naturally outspeed greninja, scarfers, priority, and on top of that greninja can not find a time to enter the game, even if he gets brought in through slow volt-turn that means their volt-turner just took a massive hit and the offensive team will have no problem just sacking something to greninja and carrying on. Ill quote Destiny Device here

2) it is almost impossible to switch into with offensive teams

so I can think of probably 80 things that offensive teams can not switch into, offensive teams do not try to have switchins for everything, they focus on keeping up their momentum so things like greninja dont get a free turn, if greninja does get a free turn that probably means they got outplayed and deserve to be put into a stickier situation. I also think that "impossible" is too strong, bisharp is a pretty reliable switchin for greninja on offensive teams, I mean if azumarill, gengar, garchomp,latios,etc.. are out on the field and gren is trying to revenge kill it would be incredibly risky for the greninja user to use low kick, I am not saying its full proof but honestly what is? I mean you can reasonably predict what move greninja is going to go for and it turns into something like an 80/20 in your favor. But yeah bisharp can switch into most moves of greninja and then threaten it out with a sucker punch, obviously you would weigh the risk of the greninja user predicting that but HO is a high risk high reward play style.

- as for greninja's matchup against stall this is where the overcentralization argument comes into play, I am pretty sure overcentralization isnt grounds enough to ban(or I at least heard that plenty of times in the aegi thread), and I guess I agree somewhat because there will always be top tier threats that need to be prepared for. But I mean I just do not see greninja ever putting in work against a stall team, I dont care what you guys say, chansey is a greninja counter. period. Chansey can run 252hp and def and that hardly scarficies its special bulk, and allows her to handle greninja. I dont think having chansey being required on stall teams is exactly a grounds to ban something this fat b*&#@ is everywhere, but there are also things like tentacruel who naturally pairs well with sableye(the best stall mega) who can absorb the toxic spikes and spin away spikes, all while walling greninja. Alomomomola is a good stall mon that handles it well, and honestly just bulky waters in general, the fact is scouting with a stall team is easy, I mean their are regnerator mons, wish support, reliable recovery EVERYWHERE on a stall team. They can afford to scout out, and all the while greninja is taking damage from his LO and potentially hazards. I just can not see an argument that shows greninja has an unfair advantage over stall teams.

-if you hate me by now I understand, but here is where I was going to insert my opinion on how greninja handles balance, but Jukain literally worded it perfectly so just pretend what he wrote up there goes in this bullet point. This is literally the only reason that makes greninja banworthy, he just simply invalidates balance teams, and there is no way to dance around that fact.

So to sum this up, I dont think greninja should be banned because he has the option to run lure sets, that trait is possessed by many mons. I dont think he should be banned because he has "no counters", because against HO teams that is irrelevant as they dont need switchins for everything, and its irrelevant against stall teams because they do have counters for greninja, it just requires a little scouting which stall can afford to do. I think greninja needs to be banned because he has an unhealthy effect on the metagame by making it impossible to effectively use balance teams, he promotes either very offensive teams, or very defensive teams and this is very restrictive and not a sign of a healthy metagame. So although you may have thought I was anti-ban I will conclude this by saying BAN THE TURTLE!

p.s. please dont catch me on technicalities, I may have worded things slightly wrong but just try to take away the main points, I dont want to quibble over details.

 

[Gary]

Reposting from other thread. I always forget this subforum still exists lol.

Greninja is a perfect example of a Pokemon that has all the tools it needs to successful, and that's actually an understatement. It has everything it could ever ask for. It's fast, pretty strong because it has STAB on everything, and has coverage for nearly every notable threat in the metagame, offensive and defensive. Its 4MSS doesn't even come close to making it less broken, because it can basically pick and choose what it beats depending on your team. Is your team a little Ferro weak? Use HP Fire. Want to lure Keldeo and Tentacruel? Extrasensory. Want to pressure offense even harder? Use Spikes. People still using AV Kyurem-B to beat you? Then just use Low Kick. Want Greninja to have better synergy with Volt-turn teams? Give it U-turn.

Outside of shit like Chansey which can only fit well on stall and shitty balanced teams , P-2 which is mediocre at best, and specially defensive Alo which hates being poisoned by Gunk Shot and is easy as hell to take advantage of, there is absolutely nothing that can reliably switch into Greninja without fearing some kind of coverage move. It doesn't matter that it can't carry all of its moves at the same time; just the sheer fact that it CAN run any of those coverage moves to fuck you is good enough. Sure your Tentacruel can beat most Greninja variants out there, but that one time you run into someone using Extrasensory, your Tentacruel becomes a liability. Yeah Ferro can check standard Greninja pretty well, but if it just so happens to carry HP Fire it just dies in one hit.

Greninja's ability to basically check 75% of the metagame while having basically zero reliable counters as well as a limited pool of checks because of its insane Speed stat which puts it above a huge portion of the metagame, is way too much for the metagame and keeping it around any longer will only hurt the development of the OU metagame. To be honest, its got a point where I don't even bother trying so hard to prepare for Greninja anymore because none of them are really reliable anyway, especially if you're an avid player of offense such as myself. Half the time its just you baiting it to use a move like Gunk shot on your Clef or Azumarill so you can get Lando-T in for free, but unless your opponent is an idiot, he'll see right through that play and just go for a Hydro or Ice Beam. And that's what I'm trying to get across to some of you people who think Greninja isn't broken. There really isn't a solid reliable way in dealing with Greninja offensively or defensively, and every time Greninja is sent out in play it basically gives the player using it a shit ton of momentum.

You're always going to be Greninja weak, because until you know its entire moveset it could be carrying a move to fuck you with. Its fragility rarely ever comes into play because of how fast it is, and how its insane coverage allows it to hit most of the metagame for super effective damage, thus preventing it from needing to take any hits. Greninja to me is the embodiment of an unhealthy offensive Pokemon, and its small list of flaws is heavily made up for by its retarded as fuck movepool, speed, Protean, and just the amount of sheer pressure it puts on every single archetype.

Ban Greninja all the way. Keeping it around any longer would be a foolish idea in my opinion. It's been around long enough for us to realize its impact on the metagame, so I don't see a point in waiting to suspect it.

 

[Lord Wallace]

I guess I'll repost my post from the main thread.

I think Greninja isn't good for the tier. Before ORAS, Greninja was one of the defining threats of the metagame, considered by some to even be broken then, thanks to its large movepool, Protean, and amazing Speed, which allowed it to threaten offensive teams as it lacked offensive switch-ins. However, offensive teams usually packed a check like AV Azumarill or Clefable which could take advantage of Greninja's inability to 2HKO them by getting a free turn (well, in Clefable's sake it had to Soft-Boiled). In ORAS, with Gunk Shot, these two counters are invalidated AND Greninja now has a move to hit specially bulky Pokemon with, such as Chansey, which is 2HKOed by Gunk Shot after some hazards. Even nicher counters like Empoleon are wrecked by Low Kick, Low Kick the move that means that the opponent cannot even rely on a miss against their Heatran or Tyranitar. Greninja has no offensive switch-ins now, and its best answers on defensive teams are Tentacruel, which can lose to the rare but viable Extrasensory, SpD Alomomola, and Porygon2, a niche choice. Because of this, Greninja is very difficult to deal with for certain playstyles.

In mid-XY, offensive teams were typically weak to Greninja, an example being the many Mega Charizard Y teams running around the ladder and in tournaments. Now, offensive teams don't have the worst time against it. They typically pack a scarfer to outspeed it, for example, Scarf Landorus-T, the most common scarfer. Full stall is fine too, they usually feature bulky Pokemon like 252/252+ Def Chansey which can get stall out its LO recoil. With Toxic and hazards, Greninja is usually dealt with reasonably well. Balance teams however, usually use cores that have a big problem with Greninja, and it's hard to mitigate this. I think Greninja is limiting the growth of balance and bulky offensive teams and I don't think this is healthy for the meta.

Also, on a different note, I don't see how anyone can actually ladder for this suspect test with the ridiculous amount of lag going on. Not the usual cancel button lag, even though that's worse than usual, but with the timer button. So far I have lost about 4 games (in very few played) from simply making a move, having the timer count down but not register that I've made a move, and then I timeout, and right after I lose and the ladder is updated, my move goes through and the turn occurs, but the game is over. I don't see how anyone can ladder with this happening.

Pretty much this, at least in XY we had Clefable, the queen of XY balance, to save us from Frog, and more aggressive balanced teams had AV Azumarill just so they wouldn't get completely shredded by other offense, but now, not only does Greninja get Gunk Shot but in general Azumarill and Clefable are at an all-time low point in viability (partly due to the former, but also because of the recent spike in Magnezone and Ferrothorn usage and Mega Metagross becoming a top tier threat to contend with). If you're running balance and don't have powerful priority (Greninja initially resisting a lot of common priority doesn't help it here either) or anything hitting over 122 Spe+ you just auto lose to good players/teams with Greninja, that's just messed up, there's just too few Pokemon faster than Greninja in general, and most of them don't really do well on balance, not a whole lot of priority consistently threatens Greninja enough to hinder it from executing it's job(s) (even CBNite only does around 70% with ESpeed), and the number of viable Scarfers in OU is probably smaller than it's ever been since the inception of the item, partly because some Pokemon even with a Scarf still won't outspeed Frog.
Greninja is one of the main reasons the XY meta was not the BO renaissance everyone thought it would be and it's really not helping ORAS get any closer either. Perhaps if Greninja was a good twelve or fourteen base Spe slower, or ten base Atk and SAtk weaker (or if Protean didn't exist) then perhaps it wouldn't be suspect-worthy at all, but as it right now it's a bit overwhelming just how much Greninja has going for it.

 

[TaBuu]

There's a very strong majority that supports a ban on Greninja and a small minority that supports otherwise. Personally I'm still on the fence about banning Greninja and I'll try to keep the bias to a minimum. Here's just some things I thought I'd bring up, more out of curiosity than anything else.

• A lot of people of people have made the argument that Greninja is impossible to counter reliably.
  On the Suspect Thread Etiquette thread, the second bullet point is "... , just because something lacks counters / checks does NOT mean it is instantly broken". I understand that Greninja's ability to place offensive pressure on teams is incredible but my question is where is the line drawn? Any top-tier Pokemon can and should be able to place immense amounts of offensive pressure on opposing teams. Surely, it can't be said that Pokemon such as Kyurem-Black and Landorus-I are suspect worthy because of their lack of reliable counters. Despite Greninja's ridiculously varied movepool, Greninja will struggle to get past certain Pokemon should it lack the appropriate coverage move.
• Another popular argument was that Greninja invalidates Balanced team-builds.
  At first glance, this is a huge issue. Invalidating any form of playstyle is a sign of some unhealthiness in the metagame and should be noticed by top-level players. However, there's also a question of adaptation. Sure it seems like 100% offense or 100% defense is the only way to go if you want to beat Greninja but ORAS is a young meta, and quite frankly, who knows what might come down the line in due time? Looking back at BW, rain offense was everywhere because of one Pokemon. With rain being so predominant, other playstyles became less favorable and became difficult to execute in such a rain-oriented metagame. Each metagame is different and while reaching the "perfect metagame" would be any competitive Pokemon player's dream, adaptation to the given meta is also a very real solution. Does the hindrance to balanced playstyles really require a ban on Greninja?

I know these might be some simple and ignorant questions but I'm sure these questions will help clear out some confusion that I'm sure some other users are bound to have. That being said, I'll be climbing the suspect ladder so I can provide a much more educated answer in the future.

 

[Gary]

I'm actually getting pretty sick of seeing the "We should wait and see if the meta can adapt to Greninja" argument. Hello? Greninja has been around since the beginning of X and Y and was always considered a huge threat; even before the introduction of Gunk Shot and Low Kick to its movepool it was always a pretty hard Pokemon to deal with, even though it had quite a few more checks than it does now. So now it has two more moves that basically eliminate a large portion of its common checks, such as Clefable, Azumarill, AV Conk, Sylveon, Empoleon, and Kyurem-B. It's so obvious now that Greninja checks and counters are very hard to come by already, so why sit around and wait to see if there's some magical Pokemon that exists that can 100% beat Greninja and fit on a lot of teams? I highly doubt that. This reminds me of the anti ban idiots who kept saying to wait and suspect Mega Mence because the ORAS meta was only a month old. But waiting was a stupid idea, because Mega Mence was so obviously broken that it would have taken a HUGEEEE metagame shift for it to ever be considered manageable.

Of course I'm not saying Greninja is nearly as broken as Mega Mence, because that's not the case at all, but judging by the very few amount of Pokemon that have come up as a check or counter to the new Greninja, most of them not even being reliable in the first place, I really can't see how waiting a few months will make any difference. Greninja is always going to be extremely threatening, and there's nothing that will change that over the course of these next few months unless Gamefreak somehow creates some amazing new Pokemon that fits well on a lot of teams and makes Greninja a liability or something, but we all know that's not going to happen.

Just ban the motherfucker and get him out of the meta. If for some reason in the future we feel that Greninja may be less overwhelming, then we could always retest it (even though OU seems very conservative about re-testing things without a generation shift). But as it stands now, Greninja is flat out broken, and waiting around just to see if the meta can come up with more obscure ways to deal with it is dumb and it's just an excuse for the anti ban people to keep him around longer IMO.

 

[Clone]

It's time.

Ever since I first started hearing complaints about Greninja when ORAS came out, I still held the views that I did during late XY where I found Greninja to be extremely good, but not overpowered. As time went on, however, I started to see how Greninja had an unhealthy presence in the metagame. I found that many of my balance. Teams had to be reworked to not be 6-0ed by Greninja (and by 6-0ed I mean 6-0ed with minimal team support like VoltTurn and rox n shit), which was not fun as they were otherwise solid versus the rest of the metagame. Whenever I was making a balanced squad I always had to deviate from my original ideas simply because I found that many common cores I used were shat on by the frog. Even simple FWG cores like tran / bro / Celebi | ches, which handled a lot of the metagame, were falling to the standard Greninja set of Low Kick / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse / Gunk Shot.

And that's when my views on Greninja started to change. I found myself resorting to hyper offense more often than not, simply because the playstyle allowed me to dictate how matches would go from turn one. That might sound fine and dandy, but HO never was my favorite play style, and even ignoring that HO is really match up reliant. I used HO to improve my matchup against Greninja (ironically, the team I use doesn't even have Greninja, lol). I had to resort to a play style that I wasn't entirely comfortable with, simply because of one mon. Hell, for a time I was even using stall, simply because I hated seeing Greninja in the team preview and knowing that I'm in for a tough battle (btw I fucking hate stall, which goes to say something at the very least). However, this leads to my next point, which as a heads up, might seem a bit confusing at first.

Despite what I said above, I still do not hold the view that Greninja is overpowered. I say this because as I stated above, HO and stall both match up well against him, contrary to popular belief. HO May not have switch ins for him, but HO doesn't have switch ins for a lot of things. HO just has switch ins for mons that are very common and somewhat exploitable, such as Latios or Scarf Lando T. Hyper offense is an extremely high risk high reward play style that is hit or miss, and Greninja doesn't change that more than any other mon. I'd even argue that Mega Lopunny is worse for HO due to Fake Out, Scrappy, and an even higher speed tier. The other playstyle I mentioned was stall, which simply does not give a fuck about Greninja in the slightest. Chansey is a staple of stall and counters all non CB Low a Kick variants of Greninja (lol pls don't run that unless u like giving out free wins). No matter what anyone says, Greninja has no way of breaking 252 / 252+ Chansey that is played competently. Any competent player can beat a Greninja if all it can do is 3HKO the mon you send in. Despite her passiveness, she won't lose to Greninja. And even then, SpDef Mega Sableye is a thing (and trust me it's really good as it handles other things than ninja!!!), as well as Tentacruel, Alomomomomomomola, Mega Venusaur, and Suicune. All of these are common / relatively common stall mons that beat ninja and when paired up with other stall mons, fare well against the rest of the meta. Greninja can't break these mons and will kill itself through LO recoil before it can crit its way through according to the law of probability.

One last thing before I wrap this up: balance isn't helpless against Greninja. Despite what I said above about having to give up playing balance, I've still seen balance squads fare well against Greninja. Teams that feature mons like AV Conk, alomomomola, Bulky Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, and Chansey all have ways of beating the frog. It may be difficult, but the possibility is still there. It just takes creative teambuilding and the ability to make plays. I struggle with Greninja when playing Balance because I lack the creative teambuilding skills that other, better players possess. Regardless, Greninja is still a threat to balance and is definitely centralizing to the tier.

Now, that last sentence is important because that is where my stance on the issue is and where my vote will lie once I achieve reqs. As anti ban as this post may seem, I still hold the view that Greninja should be banned from the OU tier. I do not find him OP. I find him unhealthy. I find him unhealthy to the point where I feel pressured to play with teams I would otherwise use as little as possible. (Such as stall or some HO teams) just so I don't feel insanely pressured whenever I see Greninja in the team preview. Greninja limits teambuilding and limits it in ways where certain cores and mons simply do not work because he singlehandedly renders them obsolete, where they would otherwise fare well against the rest of the metagame. My experience on the suspect ladder confirms this, as from the games I have played so far I have enjoyed the tier a lot more with Greninja absent from it.

Greninja, your my second favorite mon, and it pains me to say this, but it's time for you to join your fellow starter (Blaziken) in the Ubers tier, as OU simply is not ready for you yet. I have to vote ban.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

After just coming back from a 10 day vacation, I was able to achieve voting reqs in less than one day (around 12 hours to be exact) with a very nice w/l ratio and got #12 on the suspect ladder. In my opinion, Greninja is a top tier threat especially for offensive teams, but I'd still have to say to NOT BAN greninja.

In all honesty, I like Greninja's impact on the metagame. Pre ORAS, near the end of XY, the best playstyle by far was balance by a large margin. The ladder and tour battles alike were both infested with balance vs balance games, and both full HO and full heavy stall were pretty rare in the metagame. The "we should strive to create a metagame in which all playstyles are equally viable, like in late XY" statement is incredibly false because everyone and their mother knows this isnt true. Not all playstyles were equally viable in late XY, because balance was way more common and dominant than stall and offense combined. Now enter ORAS, and with the introduction of new powerful + bulky megas, and the improvement of Greninja's expansive movepool, the metagame has shifted away from a balance dominated metagame into a more offensive metagame where stall has also become increasingly popular, and that's a good thing. Now these playstyles are more common, leading to a greater variety of teams. My thoughts on the "we should totally ban Greninja because it makes balance an unviable playstyle!!!" (looking at you MegaScizor and you -Clone-) is that this is such a silly, wrong, concept. First off, we don't ban things just because they destroy a playstyle. Kyurem-b broke stall in BW2 but we didn't ban that. Similarly, Gothitelle destroys many common stall builds today and invalidates a basic game mechanic called switching, but we're not doing anything about that either. Just because Greninja completely destroys balanced builds (which isn't even true at all. Sure, HO and full stall have a much easier time against Greninja compared to balanced teams, but still, balanced teams aren't helpless; they have some checks like the common Ferro, gyarados, rotom-w, keldeo, etc) doesn't mean it should be banned. In order to ban something, the pokemon should either be "broken" or "uncompetitive", and Greninja is neither, which is why I think it deserves to stay.

Theres also the argument that "Greninja overcentralizes the metagame as much as Aegislash and promotes lazy teambuilding, and if you don't pack at least 3 checks, you're dead" which is also untrue. Greninja isn't even remotely as overcentralizing as Aegi was. Aegi made like 10+ pokemon unviable, or rather lackluster choices in the OU metagame which otherwise would be top tier threats (medi, garde, hawlucha, alakazam, celebi, starmie, heracross). These pokemon were all uncommon at high levels of play JUST because of Aegi. Greninja doesn't do that. Sure, ninja now beats clef and azu and all that but the point is these mons are still very common. Greninja doesn't overcentralize the metagame like Aegi because it can't even fit on any type of team. If you're running a Greninja on any playstyle that isn't offense, you're probably doing it wrong. On the otherhand, Aegislash fitted on every single team out there ranging from HO to heavy stall. Now for the "you should always pack 2-3 checks for greninja otherwise you're dead" argument Destiny Device , this isn't even true most of the time. Sure, balanced teams might think about this commonly but I can bet you that Greninja isn't a major concern at all for stall builds who don't even consider Greninja a threat. Offensive teams aren't even that pressured by Greninja and don't consider it a major threat either due to the prevalence of scarfers, hard hitting priority, and faster, stronger attackers. They're much bothered by other things like mega lopunny and sand excadrill. Another point is that just because you require checks in order to not get destroyed doesn't mean you're automatically broken. If you don't have like 2 thundurus checks it steamrolls you. if you dont have a keldeo switch in it gets a kill each time it comes in. It's all the same concept.

Now lets go over how Greninja fares against all common playstyles. First, against offense. heavy offense actually fares quite well against Greninja. Sure, offense teams probably don't have any direct switch ins against Greninja, but who the fuck cares? It's heavy offense, it's not supposed to have switch ins to anything. There are tons of things in which offensive teams don't have a switch in for. A good example is CB azumarill in the XY metagame, or even mega garde which basically got a kill everytime it got in safely. offensive teams dont need a switch in to Greninja to beat it; they have tons of offensive checks to it, and they are able to pressure it immediately and limit the number of times it can come in safely. Greninja will be hard pressed to beat offensive teams because of the absurd number of checks on the other team: mega sceptile, mega lopunny, talonflame, exca in sand, breloom, bisharp, scarf lando-t/chomp, thundy can paralyze, mega aero, mega beedrill, dnite espeed, not to mention all the rain HO teams that just shit on it. You might use the argument that "well greninja can always switch", but think about it, can it always really switch against HO teams? switch against a talonflame and it'll SD and sweep your team. same thing against bisharp, and it even has pursuit to trap you. switching vs scarf lando-t just makes things harder for you cuz then it can just u-turn and regain momentum. HO fares very well against Greninja.

Now against stall, Greninja really struggles to put in work. Stall, quite simply, does not give a fuck about Greninja at all. The most standard stall build (sableye/chansey/tenta) walls ninja to hell and back, even sableye can check it with priority CM + recover. you can sugarcoat it all you want by saying greninja 2hkoes chansey after 3 layers of spikes and you can extrasensory tentacruel, but the fact is greninja isn't getting past stall. how are you gonna get 3 layers of spikes down when tentacruel spins on your face? how are you keep going to fire move after move when LO and hazards damage are taking your toll? and even if you do have extrasensory to beat tentacruel, it only 2hkoes at best, and you have to drop dark pulse. and against stall, there are always bulky psychics to take advantage of that fact, such as jirachi, slowbro, cress, etc.

Balanced teams undoubtedly have the worst matchup against Greninja, which kinda sucks and they'll be forced to adapt, but hey what can you do about it. Similar to how stall had to adapt to the increasingly common wallbreaker megas after the Aegi ban, balanced can also adapt to greninja and not be a shitty style based on fat mons + 2 powerful attackers. balanced teams arent helpless against ninja, they just have the most difficult matchup. ferro and specially defensive rotom-w are good checks, and if you get scarf lando-t in safely you pretty much get a free u-turn against their team. one less common and unique pokemon that actually works really well on balance atm is klefki, which also has the perk of walling and crippling greninja with thunderwave. specially defensive mega scizor is also a really god switch in, and you can even run some other cool stuff like scarf/chople berry kyurem-b.

Becuase of all these factors and my reasoning, I will vote DO NOT BAN on the suspect test.