np: ORAS UU Stage 3.2 - Game of Pricks [Pidgeotite voted BL] - See Post #257

[Sam]

The next suspect in UU is Pidgeotite. There have been concerns with Mega Pidgeot about its centralization of the tier. Lack of good Flying-type resists means that there are few solid answers to Mega Pidgeot. However, it also matches up poorly with some offensive teams and some of its checks are fairly solid in the tier. Pidgeotite will not be allowed during this test.

The suspect test will have an N value of 20 and a COIL requirement of 2650. It will last 2 weeks from the date this thread is posted.

You can calculate the number of games required using this formula:

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2650)

song: Guided by Voices - Game of Pricks

The test will end at 11:59 PM EST on July 15th.

The Immortal

 

[Sam]

We are going to keep this thread closed for the first 2 days of this test. Hikari and I noticed in the last test that most people were posting about how they already had their decision made up at the very start of the test. This is obviously not ok, as it means that players weren't basing their decisions on the suspect ladder. I implore everyone to enter this test with an open mind. It's alright if you want to discuss the test with your fellow players, just be objective and use your experiences on the ladder to shape how you feel about the suspect.

Here are some more issues that Hikari and I had with the previous suspect. Please read them over so you don't find yourself falling in to these reasonings:

• People were posting overwhelmingly about their intention to vote ban when the thread was posted. The ladder didn't even go up until a few hours after the thread did, and the tone of the thread was already 'ban' when it did.
• People seemed very reliant on theorymoning to support their choice. There were many posts about Victini sets that supposedly pushed it over the edge. However, there were very few instances of people posting their replays or giving actual examples. Theorymoning about sets can be nice to show what can be used in the suspect, but replays and examples can give discussion about counterplay, what could have been done differently, etc. and give a better picture of the suspect. Many people actually posted about not seeing Victini on the ladder, which makes me further questions how much these sets were actually explored.
• People claimed that while Victini was not broken, there were other Pokemon that were more broken and they did not want to add Victini to the tier. The main questioning was "Feraligatr and Pidgeot are more broken, why are we adding Victini?" While a concern (and perhaps an oversight on my and Hikari's part), other broken Pokemon can be addressed later. It may be valid if the suspect would overwhelmingly make an entire playstyle "too good", but I never really saw this discussed
• People wanted to 'preserve the metagame'. Although this argument wasn't used too much, it was still brought up. At the very least, these posts were called out.

Thank you.

 

[Saria]

Time to open this.

This thread will be moderated more harshly than previous versions, so I advise you to read Sam's post before replying to this thread.

 

[Nightingales]

Yay, it's open.

My first thing I want to say is that the meta is a lot more varied now, with empoleon not being omnipresent. Pidgeot made teams have to be prepared, and now it's not as needed, so I think it's a bit healthier than before.

Is it better? That remains to be seen.

 

[Godsend]

Yay, it's open.

My first thing I want to say is that the meta is a lot more varied now, with empoleon not being omnipresent. Pidgeot made teams have to be prepared, and now it's not as needed, so I think it's a bit healthier than before.

Is it better? That remains to be seen.

Honestly I'd say the opposite, I haven't seen any great changes in diversity and Empoleon is still a really good mon in the meta. I wouldn't say that Mega Pidgeot is particularly missed but I also can't say for sure if that's because it was oh muh gurd broken or just an annoying mon to face.

 

[Patrick1088]

I'm at 1500+ already and I don't see too much changes in the meta tbh. My latest team has scarf heliolisk, which is a great check to m-pidgeot, with Hyper Voice hitting sub variants.

The only real changes i have noticed is an influx of sweeper Infernape and Lucario. I had 10-15 battles this morning and half had one or the other.

M-Pidgeot is hard to outright say its broken. Its the ability to mindlessly spam hurricane with 30% confusion and we all know how good flying moves are in the meta (Raptor, Togekiss).

I haven't really had too many issues with pidge before the test with the latest team and the meta hasnt changed drastically. Im beginning to tbink Pidge is more annoying than broken, but whether or not Hurri spam is unhealthy is the issue. I think about Machamp a bit, which has comparable power, more bulk, less speed and juat the right coverage options. Dynamic Punch has 100% confusion. Im on the fence now and will need to play more

 

[Master B8s]

Haven't gotten to playing the ladder yet, but I can say I'm excited. Whether or not pidgeot is broken, I can guarantee there is a sense of relief lifted from teams to have a consistent switch in to the bird. The lack of good rock type switch ins (steals had a hard time with heat wave, but I was told work up refresh was a better set, which don't carry heat wave) really helped make pidgeot seem broken. I see a surge fighting types, namely infernape, who was outsped and would be forced out (bar Mach punch, but as a wallbreaker, I don't think it's that great of an option). I know we were not suppose to theorymon the ladder, but I'm just pretty pumped to start playing.

 

[Patrick1088]

Haven't gotten to playing the ladder yet, but I can say I'm excited. Whether or not pidgeot is broken, I can guarantee there is a sense of relief lifted from teams to have a consistent switch in to the bird. The lack of good rock type switch ins (steals had a hard time with heat wave, but I was told work up refresh was a better set, which don't carry heat wave) really helped make pidgeot seem broken. I see a surge fighting types, namely infernape, who was outsped and would be forced out (bar Mach punch, but as a wallbreaker, I don't think it's that great of an option). I know we were not suppose to theorymon the ladder, but I'm just pretty pumped to start playing.

Infernape is definitely more viable now. NP mixed sets are really dangerous. Florges is probably the best answer atm.

 

[YABO]

Despite not thinking Pigeot is broken I will say that I'm looking forward to using Ape like you all have mentioned. I'm especially looking forward to trying out my SD Flame Charge infernape again. Cool thing is you can capitalize on offensive switch ins like Crobat and Flame Charge. You can also abuse sacks and nab an SD followed by a Flame Charge to pretty much straight clen up the game. Pidgeots absence just removes another viable revenge killer to it which is nice for the time being. I have also yet to see a Mega Ampharos and have seen a ton of mega pert granted small sample sizes are rarely indicative of what's actually happened so far.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

It really shouldn't be that easy to theorymon how a pokemon will impact the ladder. I'm going to try refrain from posting around Pidgeot and rather use my post to help others who think it might be black-white.

The metagame, and all the tiers, are ecosystems. There are predators and there are prey, and by that I do not mean defensive mons are preyed upon.
You have the top predators, Pidgeot, Feraligator, Hydreigon to name three. These pokemon have a trickle down effect when they're removed, or if they're present. You are here to decide which metagame you like the most, a metagame where's Pidgeots presence effects every single pokemon in the tier, or a metagame where Pidgeot is removed and the metagame shiftes drastically. Because it's not black and white. You might think removing Pidgeot from the metagame will only remove one monster, in reality you're trading Pidgeot for a drastic metagame change. I'm not that good at UU and I probably wont obtain reqs, but I want you to know that banning Pidgeot will make:

- Multiple mons increase in viability
- Multiple mons decrease in viability
- Pidgeots viability increases in OU, meaning other things might drop to UU
- The new viability rankings will again effect the metagame

I'm not pro ban nor am I against it as I have yet to try out the ladder, so don't take what I've just said as me tellibg you to vote one way or the other :p, how you perceive this message is up to you

 

[Darvin]

With ~20 games on the suspect ladder, the biggest thing I've noticed is that Grass are getting more use. Shaymin and Chesnaught in particluar are pokemon I'm running into a lot now that I haven't. Haven't seen too much of an increase in fighting-type presence yet, but it does seem pretty logical that these pokemon will get an increase in usage with a premier flying-type removed from the tier. Aside from flying-weak pokemon getting a reprieve, I expect Mega Pidgeot's departure will have more subtle effects on the tier. Offense will still feel an impetus to go fast, but beating that 375 speed tier is no longer quite as important, so slightly slower stuff (like non-scarf Infernape) should get more viable. Stall, balance and bulky offense will have a lot more leeway; there were very few choices to check Mega Pidgeot, and while they were very good pokemon in general that was still a pretty small pool to work with. Stuff like Empoleon will still get used a lot - it's a great pokemon, Pidgeot or no Pidgeot - but there will be less pressure to include it instead of other options at the team-building level. I know when I designed a new team for the suspect ladder, not having to build with Pidgeot in mind really lowered the pressure.

Overall, I'm torn on how I intend to vote for Pidgeot. Sam has already succinctly noted how Pidgeot's checks (while relatively few) are top notch pokemon. I do feel like every team archetype has the tools to check Pidgeot, and I've seen good players put those to excellent use to tank hurricanes and handle the free turns it occasionally generates. That's a big part of my consideration as whether to Pidgeot is unhealthy for UU. Another factor is that Pidgeot is deceptively customizable despite its shallow movepool. The only move it needs to function is Hurricane, letting you use the other three moveslots to customize your Pidgeot to prey on specific team archetypes. The stallbreaker is true to its name, the conventional set with u-turn does a great job of nabbing momentum with the threat of hurricanes, and I'm personally a fan of Hurricane/Heat Wave/Work Up/Roost which is specialized to act as a win-con. Substitute nabs free turns from stuff like Cress or P2 which launch predictable T-waves, and I've even gotten some excellent use out of niche moves like Agility (fun set, but I can't recommend it; too hard to find that setup turn). Protect is its best move against HO (easily Pidgeot's worst matchup), giving it a reprieve to get its mega evolution off while letting it scout scarfers that try to revenge it. What makes Pidgeot so dangerous is that no matter how you customize those other three slots it still retains its basic and powerful function with those wicked no guard hurricanes. Pidgeot can come in repeatedly to fire off Hurricanes without ever giving away any hint of what other tricks it has up its sleeve, which only amplifies the pressure it exerts and makes it more difficult to keep the correct checks healthy.

So, that's where I stand going into this suspect test, standing on the fence. I look forward to seeing more of the meta without Pidgeot.

 

[Malin]

- Multiple mons increase in viability
- Multiple mons decrease in viability
- Pidgeots viability increases in OU, meaning other things might drop to UU
- The new viability rankings will again effect the metagame

I can't see how this suspect increases Pidgeot's viability in OU, at all, js. But what we have to see is if Pidgeot's ban really changes UU mons viability. I played a few games and I've seen just as much Empoleons as before, while also seeing a huge usage in Mega Aerodactyl. I could see Crobat's viability increasing a bit too, as an offensive flying type, since Flying is a ridiculous good offensive type. But they won't be as good as Mega Pidgeot, since special offensive flying moves is what makes hard to deal with it. Any common p.def wall can pack a few physical flying moves and retaliate back, but a few sp. walls can tank Hurricanes, and others can be played around with U-Turn and mons like Entei or Hera to help break thru.

I'm still on fence to see if Mega Pidgeot is broken or just annoying, but I guess it will be a fun and enjoyable ladder n_n

Just expect to see Mega Bee, Feraligatr, MAero and other top mons even more lol

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I can't see how this suspect increases Pidgeot's viability in OU, at all, js. But what we have to see is if Pidgeot's ban really changes UU mons viability. I played a few games and I've seen just as much Empoleons as before, while also seeing a huge usage in Mega Aerodactyl. I could see Crobat's viability increasing a bit too, as an offensive flying type, since Flying is a ridiculous good offensive type. But they won't be as good as Mega Pidgeot, since special offensive flying moves is what makes hard to deal with it. Any common p.def wall can pack a few physical flying moves and retaliate back, but a few sp. walls can tank Hurricanes, and others can be played around with U-Turn and mons like Entei or Hera to help break thru.

I'm still on fence to see if Mega Pidgeot is broken or just annoying, but I guess it will be a fun and enjoyable ladder n_n

Just expect to see Mega Bee, Feraligatr, MAero and other top mons even more lol

People might opt to use Pidgeot more in OU now that it's the only tier they can run it in, it might just be a snowflake but it can snowball into an avalanche.

 

[Vapo]

I was on the fence before getting reqs as to whether I wanted Pidgeot gone or not. It in theory has plenty of counters and pokemon that beat it 1v1, but what tips it over the edge in my opinion is the lack of reliable counters in practice because of Hurricane's 30% confusion chance (which is slightly reminiscent of Togekiss's flinch chance). The result, I noticed, were teams often times packing multiple pokemon that should beat it in case hax gets the best of one. While this was not always the case, it was something I definitely noticed more and more in the days leading up to the suspect test. While I am not entirely done laddering, nor have I decided what I am voting, I can definitely say I noticed a shift in playstyles. It might just be the nature of suspect ladders in general, but I've noticed a lot more people running Offense as opposed to Balance. I cannot say whether this has to do with Pidgeot's absence from the ladder or not, but it definitely was refreshing. The tier just seems a lot less restricted without Pidgeot, from my experiences, but again a pokemon that restricts teambuilding to an extent does not necessarily deserve a ban, so I'll have to ladder more to form a more concrete opinion.

 

[canasian]

It's worth pointing out that teams often used multiple Pidgeot checks not because they needed multiple Pidgeot checks, but rather because they were just good teammates in the first place. Rotom-H is an excellent partner to Empoleon for its ability to handle Mamoswine (while Empoleon in turn removes the Stealth Rocks that bother Rotom); Cresselia has resistances/immunities to Aggron's prominent Fighting and Ground weaknesses while Aggron absorbs Knock Offs and U-Turns; Porygon2 and Mega Aerodactyl work well with just about anything, etc.

I guess you could say that removing Pidgeot from the metagame took some pressure off teambuilding to an extent (though I hope people don't think they have no use for flying resists period when Moltres and Noivern are still around and the former has been gaining more than a little attention), but the same would've happened if Lucario, Suicune, Hydreigon, Salamence, or just about any other offensive threat had been removed. I'm admittedly not a huge fan of Hurricane's 15% chance to invalidate offensive switch-ins, but I hope nobody actually plans to vote ban just because they think there aren't enough specially defensive flying resist in UU.

 

[Wanka]

There are aspects of Mega pidgeot that are indeed not broken whether people like it or not. And whether people like it or not there are on paper a good chunk of checks that the burd has in the forms of empoleon, porygon 2, cresselia, mega aero, mega amph, blissey (refresh really was not all that common prior to the test), snorlax, rotom heat, and goodra. Nobody really cares about rotom and goodra, but the chances of a player not finding at least one of these mons on a balance team are extremely slim so that's kinda why I think the centralization argument is kinda poop. The issue with the damn bird is that it does not care about whether or not on paper mons are supposed to check it because it can break through them anyways.

As for the other aspects of pidgeot, The high speed is the really only thing that is setting it apart as well due to its ability to fire off fast and powerful hurricanes. While its bulk isn't bad, it honestly is not switching in to very much at all because its typing defensively is just meh. Its either coming off of a sack or in with volt turn. A rocks weakness isn't helping the mediocre bulk either so thats that. The one dimensional argument is most cases should be a valid argument but in pidgeot's case, no guard hurricanes only being resisted by only 2 types (I think?) is just overshadowing any other aspect of mega pidgeot that can be deemed not broken.

We'll see how the meta fairs but gatr will definitely be more prevelant then it already is because with the bird out, the tier is going to need more stuff to step up and break balance. Still undecided as of now on burds ban though.

 

[Schpoonman]

We're not lacking for balance breakers. We've still got the Nidos, Mega Beedrill, Kyurem, 98% of our offensive powerhouses... In fact, with a little experience on the ladder and that spurring some thinking, Pidgeot's only real issue was the confusion, barring that it actually wasn't as good a breaker as many Pokemon in the tier.

 

[YABO]

We're not lacking for balance breakers. We've still got the Nidos, Mega Beedrill, Kyurem, 98% of our offensive powerhouses... In fact, with a little experience on the ladder and that spurring some thinking, Pidgeot's only real issue was the confusion, barring that it actually wasn't as good a breaker as many Pokemon in the tier.

Ya, everytime I tried to build around Pidgeot I would eventually end up scrapping it since I almost always want some decent defensive capability out of my mega slot since most of my other choices are offensive exclusively (lucario, sharpedo, etc). With stuff like that Pidgeots felt like a weak link to me and would get swapped for something like Ampharos, aero, or pert. That isn't am anti ban argument in itself, just an observation I've noticed. Although I did have one awesome team with Pidgeot awhile ago with LO Zam breaking traditional walls like Flores and Snorlax so Pidgeots could sweep later.

 

[feen]

Ah, ladder isn't as centralizing as before, I see less Empoleons and more of other rockers now, as well as the rise of Mega Beedrill. What I'm seeing the most is Cresselia on almost every team. Pidgeot's removal couldn't really affect the latter one though. But the most fruitful thing about the absence of Pidgeot is obviously rise to Stall based teams in this metagame. They no longer have to fear the dangerous Work Up Pidgeot and can play more safely. Best examples of stall being one of the best playstyle right now is this:

Hide

We all hate stall, but the question is: Will the banning of Mega Pidgeot be good for the current metagame with dangerous offensive attackers in Salamence, Mamoswine, Mienshao, Heracross, Aerodactyl and Beedrill? I still believe it will be good for the meta if it's banned because it has incredible speed while having a few reliable counters and can hax its way to beat them as well.

Shoutouts to Sam for being smart and opening this thread after 2 days!

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I use Pidgeot exclusively as my mega. I've been wanting this for a long time. Outside of theorymon, I dont get any of the arguments here. I've used Pidgeot in RU,UU and OU and while its good in those tiers, it doesn't really do anything but fire off no miss hurricanes. The hax is not guaranteed as some days I would get it and other days I wont, like hoping for burn on physical attackers. The confusion is good when I can land it but there is still a chance it does nothing at all.

I have played many m-pidgeot sets and by far the best set I found involved hurricane, heatwave, u-turn and filler because when I tried to use the wall breaker set, I could not use it in most the games I played and ended up clicking hurricane anyway. The one game I managed to get it to work was when a blissey decided to stay in and let me setup. Against other team, I just never had the chance to use it unless a very specific situation popped up where I could click workup. On top of that, unless the pokemon is really frail, its not going down in two hits most likely.

Even if I did manage to get the +1, something would switch in and force me out, fearing the scarf or just going down. Jolteon is very fast, m-beedrill gets the OHKO with poison jab after rocks, any scarf attackers with at least 65 bs in speed with nature will outspeed max speed super bird and more than likely get the KO. Scarfed pokes are very common. Other mega like beedrill, sceptile and aero are not scared of pidgeot after they mega. Other defensive megas like amphy and aggron and others tank the hits. Sure they have to worry about confusion, like physical attackers have to worry about burn but no Pidgeot is staying in to fish for the confusion if the pidgeot player can avoid it. The only time I had to stay it was because I had to but ended up losing my pidgeot most of the time.

Pidgeot's speed tier is decent but its far from good but there are a ton of faster threat, with or without a scarf that deal with it. Like said above, pidgeot has switch ins that can force it out and I understand the counter can be confused but this is no different than switching into any other attack where you eat a crit, take some kind of status or stat reduction. This is just the risk of making defensive switches.

Also keep in mind Mega Pidgeot doesn't have the best bulk to begin with. Almost any hit from an attacker will take it down. Bulky defense rotoms deal about 70% with volt switch.

0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 188-224 (61 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hurricane against it is almost a 5HKO

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W: 66-78 (21.7 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Most other hits from full (non super effective) deal about 75 to 80% to mega burd so if it takes any rocks damage, there is a good chance its going down to any attacker. To put this into perspective, most bulky attackers with non super effective can deal damage you can't roost of effectively

252+ SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 186-219 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not sure what other info to post but based on my own personal experience (and have some recordings to prove it) Mega Pidgeot is not broken like people say it is but it can be VERY good once its checks have been dealt with but if you want to be honest with yourself, what isn't.

 

[Cheryl.]

Ahh, mega pidgeot, mega pidgeot. What a pokemon. 135 special attack, 121 speed, decent defenses, can 6-0 stall, and really what's wrong with u is ur confusion chance on Hurricane. Well, i love the non centralization. Less Pingu, more fighting types (Love me some Infernape) and the rise of Mega Beedrill. Awesome. Also, the absence of Mega Pidgeot has opened the opening for stall again, as they used to fear the bird destroying them. Pidgeot's ban will be good for the meta imo, as Fighting types and stall will rise (less excited for stall though) and overall it is very overcentralizing to the meta.

 

[Sabella]

mega pidgeot has one of the best speed tiers in the game are you lost crystal pidgeot? you severely underselling it

 

[Vapo]

uhm

Even if I did manage to get the +1, something would switch in and force me out, fearing the scarf or just going down. Jolteon is very fast, m-beedrill gets the OHKO with poison jab after rocks, any scarf attackers with at least 65 bs in speed with nature will outspeed max speed super bird and more than likely get the KO. Scarfed pokes are very common.

Doesn't this apply to basically any fast offensive pokemon? Just because scarfers can revenge kill it does not mean it isn't a problem in the metagame. Scarfers revenge kill S Rank mons, so does that mean these pokemon are not threats? So because a scarfer can kill Hydreigon after it drops a draco, or Salamence after an outrage, these pokemon are balanced? The scarfer prevents said pokemon from forcing you to take a huge hit and potentially sack a mon?

Pidgeot's speed tier is decent but its far from good

Let's list off the pokemon in UU that outspeed Mega Pidgeot without a scarf.

1. Mega Aerodactyl
2. Mega Beedrill
3. Mega Sceptile
4. Crobat

If being at a speed tier that outspeeds all but four pokemon isn't good, I don't know what is.

Also keep in mind Mega Pidgeot doesn't have the best bulk to begin with. Almost any hit from an attacker will take it down. Bulky defense rotoms deal about 70% with volt switch.

0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 188-224 (61 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'd say 83/80/80 defenses for an offensive pokemon are above normal, allowing it to take, as you've shown, super effective STAB hits from defensive pokemon and still have enough HP to switch in on rocks (though I'm not sure why any Pidgeot would stay in vs a defensive Rotom, but the option is there if you need it). Off the top of my head, the only pokemon that can OHKO Mega Pidgeot with a neutral hit is Darmanitan's Flare Blitz, with Mienshao having around an 80% chance with Reckless HJK. Pidgeot takes almost every other unboosted neutral hit.

Most other hits from full (non super effective) deal about 75 to 80% to mega burd so if it takes any rocks damage, there is a good chance its going down to any attacker. To put this into perspective, most bulky attackers with non super effective can deal damage you can't roost of effectively

252+ SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 186-219 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Well you just showed a calc where a super effective hit did 72% max, so I'm not sure how you got to the conclusion that non super effective hits do 75-80. Even in the calc you posted, a max SpA modest Moonblast does 71% max, so that really doesn't support your claim either.

While I don't know myself whether I'm voting ban or not, I will make sure my decision is educated, and I hope yours is, too, because the reasoning behind your decision to vote 'no ban' really doesn't make much sense. I honestly don't mind whether Mega Pidgeot stays or goes, as long as the reasoning behind its fate is logical.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

mega pidgeot has one of the best speed tiers in the game are you lost crystal pidgeot? you severely underselling it

It has to run speed nature to do anything. Its base 121 is decent against some attackers but its super easy to outspeed.

 

[Wanka]

I suggest the battling 101 sections before you attempt to make serious posts on a suspect -.-

>super easily outsped. How can you be so naive to say it is super easily outsped. It outspeeds the entire metagame bar 3 pokes in driller, mega scept, and aero (And jolteon I even though nobody uses it blah blah blah).