np: ORAS UU Stage 6 - Slow Hands

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Sam

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#1
hello

As you know, recently we're receiving new drops in the form of mega base-form mons. In addition to this, we have decided to hold a suspect test. The mon being tested is Crawdaunt. Crawdaunt is a very potent offensive mon, but the metagame has changed drastically since it was last tested.

The suspect test will have an N value of 20 and a COIL requirement of 2650. It will last 2 weeks from the date this thread is posted.

You can calculate the number of games required using this formula:

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2650)

song: Interpol - Slow Hands


The test will end on December 19th at 11:59 PM EST

The Immortal
 

Sam

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#3
You may now post. This thread will be heavily moderated to make sure people are avoiding speculation and are appropriately contributing to the suspect discussion.
 

Kink

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#4
Captain's Log Stardate 201512.07

I have found that Crawdaunt heavily benefits from a 4th move specializing in either Sludge Waving or Ice Beaming.

In general, SD appears to be more effective than DD; the meta appears to favour a wallbreaking Crawdaunt as opposed to a Sweeper. SD also gives Crawdaunt more immediate cleaning capability.

Otherwise notable, LO w/ four attacks (one of which is special) seems to be particularly effective against counters: Chesnaught + Tangrowth, as well as other nuisances. The combination of Knock Off + Ice Beam takes care of some interesting threats.

Brokeness factor: inconclusive; further testing required.

Captain out.
 

Hogg

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#5
These are just my initial thoughts - I've only played ~20 games with Crawdaunt, and watched a few room tours.

Thus far, Crawdaunt has been threatening but not overwhelming. As I suspected, the terrible Speed tier and subpar defenses are what ultimately hinder the crab. While it is incredibly hard to switch into, it is almost impossible to bring in safely - you pretty much need to bring it in on a kill or a slow U-Turn, and so much of the tier outspeeds it and can straight up KO or cripple it in return. In most of the games that I watched, Crawdaunt rarely was able to come in more than once in a game, at which point it was either revenged or forced out and not allowed back in. The only times I've seen it get more than one kill in a game have been either late game, when it was able to sweep weakened teams with Aqua Jet, or on Trick Room teams.

While Swords Dance seems to be the set that everyone likes to talk about, I really haven't seen it actually put in any decent work, due to the aforementioned problems with getting it in and the fact that Crawdaunt almost never gets more than a single turn to do its thing. (The same has been true for the rare DD Crawdaunt sets I've seen.) Right now the two most threatening sets, at least based on the games I've played and watched, have been LO + 4 attacks and CB. LO + 4 attacks allows it to surprise a counter (Aerial Ace for Chesnaught, Superpower for Cobalion, Ice Beam for Chesnaught/Tangrowth/Salamence, etc.), although it's heavily prediction-reliant, as many of those counters outspeed (and even the ones that don't can often comfortably tank one coverage move - for example, Ice Beam only does ~60% to Chesnaught, who can retaliate with a Drain Punch or Wood Hammer for the KO), so you pretty much have to catch them on the switch. CB just banks on the raw power of Knock Off and does the best job spamming Aqua Jet late game, but is even more easily exploitable than LO due to the fact that it can't finish up things that survive a Knock with an Aqua Jet.

All in all Crawdaunt reminds me heavily of Mamoswine and Hoopa - a really threatening wallbreaker that is insanely hard to switch into, but one with almost no defensive utility. Crawdaunt has even more wallbreaking potential than either of those... but in turn it has even less defensive utility (and a much worse Speed tier in the case of Mamoswine, which is significant against balance teams).

My opinions might change as the meta settles a bit, but as of right now Crawdaunt seems good but not broken.
 
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#6
Now, maybe this is just me. But I've found that unless it's a Trick Room team, Crawdaunt isn't exactly threatening to most of my teams depending on the set. Dragon Dance just gets Outsped and OHKO'd, SD I can sack something, then bring in something else to force it out and set up or just Revenge it. Overall, it doesn't say broken to me. I probably have more issues with Gatr.
 
#7
First off, I'm horribly offended that Rock Lobster was not the track of choice for this suspect. I mean, seriously? I even got everyone matching towels..

Concerning Crawdaunt itself, Hogg pretty much said everything. It's a very strong offensive mon, especially if you can get off a Swords Dance or Dragon Dance. The flaw in that comes when you realize that is has very few opportunities to do so. It's coverage is actually very shallow, only having Aerial Ace/Superpower for Physical options and Ice Beam/Sludge Wave for special; the latter of which can't really be run on a Choiced set, and all of them tend to only defeat certain checks/counters, while still losing to the others.

As to it being worth banning, hard to exactly say yet.
 
#8
The only true counter to crawdaunt would be chesnaught(assuming no one is going to run aerial ace). Toxicroak is OHKOed by knock off after a dragon dance boost usually.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 303-357 (98.6 - 116.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Though most crawdaunt aren't going to have dragon dance.
Suicune is 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and...
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Mega Aggron: 109-130 (31.6 - 37.7%) -- 91.4% chance to 3HKO

Hard to counter doesn't necessary mean it is broken though
 
#9
Crawdaunt from what I've tested so far may be the best wallbreaker in this tier right now. If it gets the chance to get a SD off, a lot of Pokes are outright slaughtered thanks to Adaptability and it's base 120 attack. Life Orb Swords is a ridiculous set for this Poke, and honestly is really the only set it needs to run. DD Craw I found takes too long to set up and is easily taken advantage of compared to the other set.

Despite this thing's power, I don't believe it's THAT broken. The best surefire counters right now for Crawdaunt are Chesnaught and Tangrowth, which are pretty relevant right now since this meta is currently all about bulky offense, and a lot of Water-types are commonly used. Crawdaunt does have other options for taking these two out, but are really niche options and aren't really used for much else, except for maybe a predicted switch-in. I also found that Crawdaunt can make you lose a lot of momentum. All it takes is for your opponent to bring in something that can pose a threat, like Blastoise or Chesnaught, and since Crawdaunt doesn't have the best defenses and defensive typing, you're forced out a lot.

Crawdaunt is a powerhouse for sure, but I don't think it's in any way broken. Not now, anyway. If the meta shifts away from bulky offense, then I could see Crawdaunt as potentially ban-worthy.
 
#10
Crawdaunt more like craw-DON

but real talk I've been spamming this like double water triple dark core of crawdaunt + sharpedo + hydreigon with healing wish support and together they can so easily overwhelm each others checks and counters its amazing.
Pros:
-crawdaunts bulk isn't bad so you can barely live a hit from a lot and then 2ko with knockoff/crabhammer + jet
ex: 252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crawdaunt: 229-270 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
from full health you can live quite a few hits.
-life orb is deadly, I've seen splash plate work pretty well, it also bluffs a focus sash set which is scary to face when you're using offense.

Cons:
-crawdaunt's low speed is actually a really huge detriment to it when playing offense as usually you end up only being able to aqua jet everything except for like forretress.
-susceptible to scald burns and hard to switch in and avoid a 2KO
-water + dark + superpower occasionally is basically the extent of its move set

in terms of the suspect i think it'll be similar to mamo and hoopa as previously said and just be another great wall breaker to shake up the UU meta.
also its hard to get a good feel for it with the addition of all the new mega-base form drops shaking the meta up on top of this.

edit: I can also see a crawdaunt + gatr + sharpedo core for water wall breaking + cleaning work out really well
THE WATER SPAM IS REAL

edit2: I wanna also add that unless you're trying to speed tie other crawdaunts, you always want to run adamant just for the sheer power. and the fact that it can get forced out after a kill shouldn't really be that big for a factor since crawdaunt should be used as a wallbreaker (aka netting kills) and the best thing about it is not much can really set up on a crawdaunt either, forcing the opponent to attack it or risk dying for the most part
 
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Adaam

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#11
After using Crawfaunt in about ~25 games, it doesn't seem to be too broken. Don't get me wrong it should be automatic S rank of unbanned but I honestly think its not as threatening as Mamo (who I also think should be S but that's another story).

Anyway, the lack of defensive utility is being really overstated. Obviously you aren't throwing it at a Specs Chandy or Sacred Fire, just like you wouldn't blindly switch in Hoopa in on Nidoqueen, or . You either bring it in off a U-Turn/Volt Switch or use it to revenge kill said Entei/Chandelure/Mega Houndoom/Reuniclus etc. By virtue of typing alone it can revenge kill a number of both offensive and defensive mons and get a chance to fire off a free Crabhammer or Knock Off. It also forces extremely deadly 50/50s against stuff like Mega Aero with the threat of Aqua Jet. You can either switch on the Aqua Jet and potentially get smashed by Crabhammer, or stay in and die to Aqua Jet.

Of course, it's bulk is still a big negative as well as its speed. That's definitely what's keeping it from being borked, but STAB Adaptability Knock Off, Aqua Jet, and decent typing more than makes up for it. For now I'm leaning to keep it but very hesitantly
 
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#12
Played over 100 games in this meta and enjoyed it immensely. I used Crawdaunt for half of those games and found it useless 50 percent of them. Mostly used its presence effectively (by doubling or bluffing jet and knocking off) then sweeping with it. SD is better then the dd set from what I have seen. Crawdaunt has many offensive soft checks and lures for it to definitely not be overwhelming.


As for hard counters for the most mentally digestible set(SD/DD)Chesnaught,Tangrowth, and Virizion (Kinda) come to mine. Some people are even using bulky sala with rocky helmet which is pretty useful(cept when u get bodied by ice beam). Back to using Crawdaunt in game, it really can only sweep poorly built teams most teams in this meta have a whimscott/toxicroack/cobalion(all soft offensive checks) or enough offensive pressure where it can not be effective.

I think also Crawdaunt gives a nice offense check to the powerful mega sharpedo which is always annoying to handle for offense based teams. Speaking of Mega Sharpedo crawdaunt pretty much is the slower version of Sharpedo just has priority and its been clear Sharpedo isn't broken so I am voting to Keep The Hammer in UU [:

Just A List Of Some Checks by viability in meta from New Mons to A-:

Soft Checks:

New Mons

Sableye-Willo if its at enough hp to live a boosted/non boosted aqua jet.
Venusaur-Sun or Weird Non-Sun variants can outspeed and kill with drain.
S Rank

Salamence-Draco/Outrage It switchs in if intimidate with decent bulk and can roost off damage. If moxie it spams outrage.
Hydregion: It switchs in nicely and can revenge kill it easily with draco.

A + Rank:

[07:00:24] @NJNP: !dt switch ins/Soft Checks
No UU Pokémon, in, this, rank likes this mofo named 'crawdaunt' 'crawdaunt' was found to kick they ass.
(Check your counters?)

A Rank:
Cobalion can revenge kill with cc.
Whimscott switchs in and kills all non sludge wave variants.
Mega Blastoise(run 72 speed evs to out speed adamant) switch ins and kills with sphere.
Toxicroack switchs in and revenges with drain(all non aerial ace daunt's)

A- Rank:
Kyurem can live any aqua jet(even plus 6 after rocks) and revenge kill it with draco/pulse
Empoleon can run max speed and run grass knot if u are desperate.
Heracross lives plus 2 at full at kills with megahorn/cc
Shaymin lives any aqua jet and kills with seed flare/dazzling gleam






Lures:

New Mons
Diancie Max Speed to bop non boosted daunts with moonblast
Metagross Grass Knot(More Viable)/Hammer Arm to do a decent amount or kill and doesn't die to plus 2 jet at full.

S Rank:
Suicune HP Electric/Grass on cune to do decent damage to crawdaunt. Not depending on scald burn at least.

A + Rank:

Running low kick/superpower on Feraligatr on dd/sd set.
Run 96 speed evs on florges to outspeed common adamant(I know thats a little over the top, lol).

A Rank:

Chandelure running energy ball to bop it.(Not the best lure sense common)
Azlef lead with t bolt/dazzling gleam to bop it.(Not the best lure sense common)

A- Rank:
[07:00:24] @NJNP: !dt Lures
No UU Pokémon, in, this, rank lures this mofo named 'crawdaunt' cept crazy focus blast slowking [:
(Check your brain?)

Anti Meta Core with Crawdaunt

Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance

Virizion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance


So with this SD LO spam core here, it simply helps break walls for each other, Intimidate Salamence/Zapdos Bulky is annoying towards crawdaunt. SD Virizion is able to "Lure" in the sala and ohko's with edge with rocks up(+1 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 306-362 (92.4 - 109.3%). Crawdaunt handles taking out amoongus after an sd and doing a ton to doublade with knock off(not boosted) making it no longer a check to Virizion. Virizon also with boosts does nice damage towards crawdaunt soft checks like whimscott(unless speedy variants outspeed ofc)/Tangrowth/Chesnaught Virizon also gives a switch in to crawdaunt :P



Anyway, hope you guys enjoy suspect and this post peace.
 
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Take Azelfie

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#13
Crawdaunt is really cool and I personally enjoy using it. Crawdaunt has the same feeling as when I use Hoopa-U in OU in that it has pretty much no switch ins but it can be taken out pretty easily. Swords Dance is amazing clean-up since it can nuke anything in its path. Life Orb is also effective. Dragon Dance is only effective once all flying and levitators are out of the way and you have Sticky Web up so yh. Splash Plate, Life Orb, Choice Band are all viable items. Ice Beam is actually pretty good but of course you will have to get rid of some of Craw already pretty garbage bulk. Keep the Craw
 
#14
I agree with the General consensus of the last few posts, it is not ban worthy, there a ton of checks that are soft, med, to great counters. also couple low special D and speed with somewhat low bulk and you essecially have a glass cannon evenwith DDance and swords dance

its major flaw is fairy type, which theres only one fast one in this tier called Whimscott, which is one of its biggest counters due to prankster able to stun spore it, Moonblast/energy ball/giga drain, the only way this thing is stopped is taking one of its moves off to learn poison jab, but even then it gets nulled

another is fighting pokemon mainly these few, Virizion, the mentioned Cobalion and ive thought about it and Mienshao (if the fake out set it normally is) can check it hard as well, not to mention ANY and ALL pokemon that resist water and are faster than it to not worry bout knock off as it turns Aqua jet to null.

This pokemon Might deserve a S, but I believe in all regards that Feraligatr does better with more, better moves, still has both Swords dance and Ddance, access to sheerforce which is a fucking god send, and its sheer power, its slightly less powerfull than Craw daddy, (until you add ability and life orb into equation) BUT it is not weak to fairy/fighting and it gains a huge boon in the fact its more bulkier and faster sporting much better defence, HP, and Special D meaning it can take more than one hit...

so in the closure... why Is crawdaddy banned again?
 

Kink

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#15
I agree with the General consensus of the last few posts, it is not ban worthy, there a ton of checks that are soft, med, to great counters. also couple low special D and speed with somewhat low bulk and you essecially have a glass cannon evenwith DDance and swords dance

its major flaw is fairy type, which theres only one fast one in this tier called Whimscott, which is one of its biggest counters due to prankster able to stun spore it, Moonblast/energy ball/giga drain, the only way this thing is stopped is taking one of its moves off to learn poison jab, but even then it gets nulled

another is fighting pokemon mainly these few, Virizion, the mentioned Cobalion and ive thought about it and Mienshao (if the fake out set it normally is) can check it hard as well, not to mention ANY and ALL pokemon that resist water and are faster than it to not worry bout knock off as it turns Aqua jet to null.

This pokemon Might deserve a S, but I believe in all regards that Feraligatr does better with more, better moves, still has both Swords dance and Ddance, access to sheerforce which is a fucking god send, and its sheer power, its slightly less powerfull than Craw daddy, (until you add ability and life orb into equation) BUT it is not weak to fairy/fighting and it gains a huge boon in the fact its more bulkier and faster sporting much better defence, HP, and Special D meaning it can take more than one hit...

so in the closure... why Is crawdaddy banned again?
Crawdaunt was banned during an earlier phase of UU which was seized by HO, and it was deemed that Crawdaunt was too powerful to contain. You can see our reasoning in this post here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-tiering-system-voting-records.3520708/#post-5459366 - I myself said the following words during the previous Crawdaunt vote:

"Whenever a Crawdaunt switches in, 9 times out of 10, a strategy has to be improvised to deal solely with the Crawdaunt, lest you risk an easy and simple sweep.

The combination of adaptability and knock off, with the combined possibility of over 4 standard sets (DD, SD, Sash, Band, and more), AND the fact that Daunt can theoretically fill in the required offensive roles on ANY team makes this mon beyond broken.

UU is not ready for this level of Hyper Offense. Daunt must go."

As you can see from the link, the ban on Crawdaunt was absolutely unanimous throughout the Council. While I no longer hold this opinion on the Rock Crab, Crawdaunt is still immensely powerful, and our decision here should be weighed on a variety of factors. First, and foremost, I think giving it a potential rank is premature and your focus should, instead, be shifted towards seeing whether or not the meta can currently handle Crawdaunt. Secondly, while Whims can handle Crawdaunt fairly decent in a one-on-one matchup, whims can't afford to switch into more than two Knock Offs before being rendered impotent. Considering that, right now, Fairy-types support Crawdaunt very well, I'd say the crab's larger problems are focused around: (1) Priority including vacuum Wave aka Lucario, Infernape, and Toxicroak, as well as Entei's E-speed, and the occasional Mach Punch from Ape; (2) a wider variety of defensive tanks, including the prevalence of Intimidate users such as Salamence (which outspeeds +1 DD), and other mons that have soared in usage since Crawdaunt's last appearance, including Bulky Coba, and the introduction of a larger variety of faster mons such as Mega Sceptile, which can outpseed +1 if necessary.

Things have changed for the Rock Lobster, and I think this is what you should focus on. If you have questions such as "why was it banned in the first place?" then you should take more time to inform yourself of the history of the tier; the past informs the future, so be sure to know the past. Lastly, we should not be speculating Rock Crab's viability rank until the time comes for it to settle within the meta.

Sorry for the essay, but I really need to stress to you all that this level of speculation will not be tolerated.
 

Pearl

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#16
Crawdaunt seems pretty balanced to me so far. For reference, I've played around 60 games during this suspect test, 50+ with Swords Dance Life Orb Crawdaunt and 15 or so with Ice Beam Crawdaunt.

Honestly, it doesn't surprise me that a metagame with threats such as Feraligatr, Mega Sharpedo and Mega Swampert (among other similar Pokemon) is able to handle Crawdaunt fairly well, and even though it's true that the latter does much better against slower teams than all of the other Pokemon I've mentioned (bonus points if it's carrying either Ice Beam or Aerial Ace), it also packs a lot less utility against offense. Priority Aqua Jet is cool to pick off some weakened threats, but that's about it, especially when taking into consideration that it has a reduced amount of switch in opportunities and that every good offensive team carries solid Water-type resists that Crawdaunt has a hard time revenge killing, such as Toxicroak, Salamence, Heliolisk and Hydreigon. However, I have to agree that Crawdaunt gives slow balance and stall teams a very hard time, but since that applies to an insane amount of UU's offensive threats I don't really feel like it makes up for a good pro ban argument.

I think that's all I have to say about Crawdaunt, so here are some misc opinions of the metagame so far:
  • Venusaur is getting a lot of undeserved shit. It competes for a slot w/ Roserade and Amoonguss, but it's not 100% outclassed by any means. Try Swords Dance / Power Whip / Knock Off / Synthesis Venusaur with a bulky EV spread, it's pretty neat.
  • Froslass + Sableye Spikes stacking is back! I feel that people are underselling Sableye a lot as well. It was a solid A+/A rank threat back when it was UU and I'm really looking forward to see more people using it. Plus, it is a perfect Reuniclus counter, which is a huge bonus.
  • No Jirachi means that Metagross will be a lot more viable this time around. I've been seeing a lot of Assault Vest on the ladder (note: Pursuit is cool on this set), which isn't bad at all, but Choice Band, Agility and Stealth Rock are probably just as good, if not better. I'll give Metagross a try in the near future so I can post more about it.
  • Double Water-type (Crawdaunt + Rain Dance Pert / Mega Shark) is beastly. I've been using Ice Beam Crawdaunt to lure stuff and Swampert as a cleaner, but any other Crawdaunt set should also work fine.
Hyped to try Gardevoir. Most Gardevoir I've seen are Choice Specs / Scarf, but Healing Wish support looks really neat as well.
 
#17
Crawdaunt more like craw-DON

but real talk I've been spamming this like double water triple dark core of crawdaunt + sharpedo + hydreigon with healing wish support and together they can so easily overwhelm each others checks and counters its amazing.

I tried this out just for shits and giggles, and it turned out amazing!! Sharpedo + crawdaunt are bffs!

I'm on the fence about crawdaunt being broken too. The difference between crawdaunt and other wall breakers vs offensive teams is that crawdaunt at least has aqua jet to hit with.
Right now it is too early to tell with the new drop downs that can shift the metagame

Edit: forgot crawdaunt was banned before ORAS.
 
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#18
Crawdaunt is unhealthy imo. It falls under the catergory of semi unwallable wall breakers seen in BL.(Victini Diggersby Staraptor) I do think that Craw is least broke out of those but I think that is so hard to wall switch in to and sweep whole teams due to priority itll make for a less healthy meta.

Ive been using a bulky hydrei set that is not only good at checking craw but is cash in general. It is really good at taking hits from waters fires things like krook metagross and other things that doesnt hit SE and hit back either twave or a pulse of choice lol. It also baits things like coba pory n fairys so u can wave them and then act acoordingly. I havent tried it yet along with these mons but i pretty much know that a core of tenta w/ t spikes and hex chandy would be good.

248 hp 216 def 44 speed @ lefties
Bold
T wave
Taunt
Dragon or dark pulse
Roost

Im on my phone so thats y this post isnt all pretty lol
 
#19
After laddering and tilting a fuckton and finally getting reqs, here's what I have to say about Crawdaunt:

It limits bulkier playstyles a hell lot, and forces them to run Chesnaught on every bulkier teams because that's the only thing that's switching into it. However, it still fears Ice Beam or Aerial Ace Crawdaunt and hence makes it very dangerous for bulkier builds. I have laddered with Choice Banded set and it just OHKOs half the metagame and yes, it is slow as shit but with proper support it just decimates every bulky Pokemon hence making it very easy for cleaners to clean through. As for the Life Orb set, it also decimates everything after a Swords Dance given if it outspeeds that Pokemon and if that Pokemon isn't weak to Aqua Jet. Therefore, I believe Crawdaunt is broken.

I do not why the council decided to suspect Crawdaunt over other BL Pokemon; Staraptor or Scolipede would have been a better idea over this thing. Anyways, I have used Crawdaunt + Nidoqueen which is a really cool core right now since bulky Nidoqueen beats most of Crawdaunt's checks and counters like Toxicroak, Heliolisk, Chesnaught and Salamence. I also saw some Florges running Speed EVs to creep Adamant Crawdaunt which is reminding me of the time people ran Speed EVs on Cresselia for Pangoro in RU.

e: Also I think the tier is perfectly fine with the new drops and Crawdaunt not existing. Bringing Crawdaunt back in is going to turn the metagame into a very unhealthy one.

tl;dr I do not want one of my mons to die whenever Crawdaunt switches in and therefore, I am going to vote ban.
 
#20
My first ever attempt at reqs, I've played a lot of ladder games now (around 100 I think) but pretty much given up trying haha (my GXE sucks tbh).

I was surprised by how balanced I found Crawdaunt to be. It's sheer power is insane, of course, but in practice I found it doesn't get *too* many chances to take advantage of that power. It's super slow, weak to both U-turn and Volt Switch and Aqua Jet's power can be underwhelming when hitting neutrally. I started off with Jolly Swords Dance Life Orb and played around 25 matches and never really got the opportunity to SD. Any opportunities I did have, Crabhammer or Knock proved to be more desirable. So I changed to Jolly Life Orb 4 attacks and toyed around with Sludge Wave for the Chesnaught and Whimsicott switch-ins and it proved to work a lot better, for me.

While using teams built to handle Crawdaunt, Chesnaught and Mega Ampharos proved most reliable for me. Chesnaught can use Spiky shield to scout for an Aerial Ace or Sludge Wave/Ice Beam, force it out and start setting up Spikes or Leech Seeding something or just Drain Punch it if it stays in. Mega Ampharos can take any hit and Thunderbolt or Volt Switch out.

I never felt overpowered by Crawdaunt and nor did I feel Crawdaunt overpowered my opponents too much, so I lean towards the unban side at the moment. Though I doubt I'll actually get to vote this time, I've enjoyed the suspect so far!
 

Kink

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#21
After laddering and tilting a fuckton and finally getting reqs, here's what I have to say about Crawdaunt:

It limits bulkier playstyles a hell lot, and forces them to run Chesnaught on every bulkier teams because that's the only thing that's switching into it. However, it still fears Ice Beam or Aerial Ace Crawdaunt and hence makes it very dangerous for bulkier builds. I have laddered with Choice Banded set and it just OHKOs half the metagame and yes, it is slow as shit but with proper support it just decimates every bulky Pokemon hence making it very easy for cleaners to clean through. As for the Life Orb set, it also decimates everything after a Swords Dance given if it outspeeds that Pokemon and if that Pokemon isn't weak to Aqua Jet. Therefore, I believe Crawdaunt is broken.

I do not why the council decided to suspect Crawdaunt over other BL Pokemon; Staraptor or Scolipede would have been a better idea over this thing. Anyways, I have used Crawdaunt + Nidoqueen which is a really cool core right now since bulky Nidoqueen beats most of Crawdaunt's checks and counters like Toxicroak, Heliolisk, Chesnaught and Salamence. I also saw some Florges running Speed EVs to creep Adamant Crawdaunt which is reminding me of the time people ran Speed EVs on Cresselia for Pangoro in RU.

e: Also I think the tier is perfectly fine with the new drops and Crawdaunt not existing. Bringing Crawdaunt back in is going to turn the metagame into a very unhealthy one.

tl;dr I do not want one of my mons to die whenever Crawdaunt switches in and therefore, I am going to vote ban.
I'll be honest with you. I have no friggen clue how your post has 12 likes. Your post is based on the weirdest conjecture I've read in a while. Instead of deleting it, I'm going to make an example of you. Disclaimer: I apologize in advance if this sounds harsh. I do like you, Arifeen, but this hurt my brain.

First of all, the council decided to suspect Crawdaunt because of several key factors including, but not limited to: (1) the chance of Crawdaunt staying, which was significantly higher now than ever before due to the recent change up ; (2) the fact that we didn't even need to hold a suspect test, but that the drops gave us an opportunity to bring in Pokemon which would otherwise be shut down, aka Crawdaunt or, for example, Victini, the latter of which was recently denied re-entry and must wait its turn before it can be tested a third time. The purpose of suspect tests isn't to cater to your understanding, and I'd prefer you ask one of us as rather than make erroneous statements which hold no true sceptical ground. Suspect test are meant to test the boundaries of the tier against the suspect in question. Perhaps Staraptor might make an interesting suspect, but Crawdaunt was first on the list, and we attempt to carefully select which Pokemon best represents the point of a suspect test.

Addressing your other points, I think you're not capturing the stable elements of the tier, and that you should try experimenting with Balance Cores that stand a chance against against a variety of threats. Here is a team that handles Crawdaunt and other threats fairly well, generally finishing with a Krook cleanup:
Krookodile @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Knock Off

Empoleon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Roar

Salamence @ Dragon Fang
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- Defog

Machamp @ Assault Vest
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 96 Def / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch

Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder Wave

OHKOing half the metagame isn't impressive. Salamence can OHKO half the game just by being Choice Band and clicking Outrage. It's HOW Crawdaunt measures up to its checks and counters alongside their cores that determines whether or not Rock Crab is broken, and you have not established this in the slightest. Cobalion, Mence, Lucario, Toxicroak, Priority revenge killers in Entei and Infernape, Checks/Counters in Tangrowth, Chesnaught, Amoonguss, Shaymin, struggles against Intimidate and Rocky Helmet cores focusing around double switching Arcanine + Mence. Yeah. There are ways to get around Crawdaunt, and this list literally took me one minute to come up with. But yeah, my point is to actually take the time to find ways to beat Crawdaunt, and then see just how difficult it is to take it on. No, you don't have to run Chesnaught on every team. Don't be lazy in your teambuilding.
 

Adaam

I’m a computer-y guy
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
#22
After laddering and tilting a fuckton and finally getting reqs, here's what I have to say about Crawdaunt:

It limits bulkier playstyles a hell lot, and forces them to run Chesnaught on every bulkier teams because that's the only thing that's switching into it. However, it still fears Ice Beam or Aerial Ace Crawdaunt and hence makes it very dangerous for bulkier builds. I have laddered with Choice Banded set and it just OHKOs half the metagame and yes, it is slow as shit but with proper support it just decimates every bulky Pokemon hence making it very easy for cleaners to clean through. As for the Life Orb set, it also decimates everything after a Swords Dance given if it outspeeds that Pokemon and if that Pokemon isn't weak to Aqua Jet. Therefore, I believe Crawdaunt is broken.

I do not why the council decided to suspect Crawdaunt over other BL Pokemon; Staraptor or Scolipede would have been a better idea over this thing. Anyways, I have used Crawdaunt + Nidoqueen which is a really cool core right now since bulky Nidoqueen beats most of Crawdaunt's checks and counters like Toxicroak, Heliolisk, Chesnaught and Salamence. I also saw some Florges running Speed EVs to creep Adamant Crawdaunt which is reminding me of the time people ran Speed EVs on Cresselia for Pangoro in RU.

e: Also I think the tier is perfectly fine with the new drops and Crawdaunt not existing. Bringing Crawdaunt back in is going to turn the metagame into a very unhealthy one.

tl;dr I do not want one of my mons to die whenever Crawdaunt switches in and therefore, I am going to vote ban.
I mean no disrespect when I say this but do you have proof of Crawdaunt killing something every time it comes in? I'm curious to see this happen, since mons like Hydra, Whims, Salamence etc are pretty common. Crawdaunt also has a hard time coming in, so if it did get a kill every time it came in, it shouldn't be too many unless you built poorly or misplayed

Moreover, it is extremely silly to say Crawdaunt destroys a team after a SD if it outspeeds a mon or of its weak to Aqua Jet. Well, obviously. It is no secret that of you let something set up for free, and you also lack any way to revenge kill it, you will lose to it. I can say the same for Salamence, for example. It easily sweeps if it gets a free DD, given if it has the appropriate coverage moves and given there are no ice shard users.

I won't deny Crawdaunt is a menace for bulky builds, but honestly, I'd really like replays of it 6-0ing teams on preview. And if you do find one where Daunt breaks through a Slowking + Florges + Aggron core, maybe they should have prepared better for it. The nice thing about Crawdaunt is that it has nearly the same checks as Feraligatr and Mega Sharpedo, so if you prepare for one you at least have an ok check to Daunt. Try exploring less standard sets. Creep with Florges on Adamant Crawdaunt. Run Colbur Reuniclus/Slowking/Jellicent. Maybe even run the uncommon Mega Ampharos, which is a great offensive check to it.

Here are some replays where Crawdaunt is used but doesn't destroy the opposing team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-302209424

Turn 2 I get in Crawdaunt safely via a double, and I then Crabhammer the Florges putting it at 12%. Sacri had a Mence in the back, and if the EVs were correct, he could have stayed in on Slowking for another Fire Blast (his Chandy was max attack LOL), which would smoke Crawdaunt despite resisting. It then dies to Moonblast. I won't deny that if I denied its recovery later on, I probably would have won (damn speed creeping Florges). However, it seems like DD Gatr could have punched some holes in this scenario as well. So could Mamo. Are they broken as well?

His Crawdaunt makes an appearance turn 24 and kills Crobat, which I sack. It then is forced out by Ampharos and is later used as fodder. Again, it wasn't Crawdaunt's brokenness that gave Sacrifice a free kill. Switching in Gatr, again, or Sharpedo, or Mamo, or Krook all would yield similar results.

In total, the Crawdaunts dealt ~110% damage for one kill.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-302282025

Another replay vs a decently bulky team. It features Salamence, Whims, Nidoqueen, Stoise, Snorlax, and Honchkrow. The former five all have respectable to great bulk, so it's fair to call it a bulky team.

Right off the bat I lead Crawdaunt in case he tries to get rocks up ASAP. But, he leads Whims and I'm forced out. I fail to get Crawdaunt in safely until I use it to pick off a Mega Blastoise at 8%. Sure you can argue that I'm bad and had many opportunities to bring it in, but the fact remains that doing so via doubles is highly dangerous. Mence then forces me out and ends up cleaning after critting Umbreon.

All in all, Crawdaunt isn't this ridiculously borked fat slaying mon that people seem to be claiming it to be. We have plenty of new offensive and defensive checks, including the rise of old mons like Whimsicott, Cobalion, Heliolisk, Kyurem, M-Snow, and NP Toxicroak, and new mons like Salamence, Mega Sceptile, Mega Sharpedo (can pick off after prior damage), Zapdos, and Mega Pert. I acknowledge that these aren't ez hard counters like we all would love, but the conjunction of all these new soft to decent checks make Crawdaunt much more manageable
 
Last edited:
#23
King uu it seems silly to put arifeen on a podium under the assumption that his post was entirely speculation when the suspect test has gone on for only a couple days only and isnt even a true glimpse of how the tier would function in the coming months with spl around the corner as well. Anyone could throw a team together and throw out claims of "its fine" if you have half a brain. Trying to objectify statements in such a subjective aspect of tiering at times, suspect testing, seems silly to throw someone entirely under the bus over and openly claim your intention to make an example of.

Been like 5 days most of these posts dont hold legitmate grounds in the long run when the tier would stabilize anyways. Lol relax.
 
#24
My two cent post.

In the past, we've banned things because they either are too powerful to handle across any one play style or they utterly decimate a specific build. In this case, that build is stall. They have almost nothing to actively keep pressure on daunt, sans status. There aren't many answers that fit on full stall, at least none I can see.

Then again, I play ho, so my opinion is probably invalid.
 
#25
I mean no disrespect when I say this but do you have proof of Crawdaunt killing something every time it comes in? Moreover, it is extremely silly to say Crawdaunt destroys a team after a SD if it outspeeds a mon or of its weak to Aqua Jet. Well, obviously. It is no secret that of you let something set up for free, and you also lack any way to revenge kill it, you will lose to it. I can say the same for Salamence, for example. It easily sweeps if it gets a free DD, given if it has the appropriate coverage moves and given there are no ice shard users.

I won't deny Crawdaunt is a menace for bulky builds, but honestly, I'd really like replays of it 6-0ing teams on preview. And if you do find one where Daunt breaks through a Slowking + Florges + Aggron core, maybe they should have prepared better for it. The nice thing about Crawdaunt is that it has nearly the same checks as Feraligatr and Mega Sharpedo, so if you prepare for one you at least have an ok check to Daunt. Try exploring less standard sets. Creep with Florges on Adamant Crawdaunt. Run Colbur Reuniclus/Slowking/Jellicent. Maybe even run the uncommon Mega Ampharos, which is a great offensive check to it.

Here are some replays where Crawdaunt is used but doesn't destroy the opposing team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-302209424

Turn 2 I get in Crawdaunt safely via a double, and I then Crabhammer the Florges putting it at 12%. Sacri had a Mence in the back, and if the EVs were correct, he could have stayed in on Slowking for another Fire Blast (his Chandy was max attack LOL), which would smoke Crawdaunt despite resisting. It then dies to Moonblast. I won't deny that if I denied its recovery later on, I probably would have won (damn speed creeping Florges). However, it seems like DD Gatr could have punched some holes in this scenario as well. So could Mamo. Are they broken as well?

His Crawdaunt makes an appearance turn 24 and kills Crobat, which I sack. It then is forced out by Ampharos and is later used as fodder. Again, it wasn't Crawdaunt's brokenness that gave Sacrifice a free kill. Switching in Gatr, again, or Sharpedo, or Mamo, or Krook all would yield similar results.

In total, the Crawdaunts dealt ~110% damage for one kill.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-302282025

Another replay vs a decently bulky team. It features Salamence, Whims, Nidoqueen, Stoise, Snorlax, and Honchkrow. The former five all have respectable to great bulk, so it's fair to call it a bulky team.

Right off the bat I lead Crawdaunt in case he tries to get rocks up ASAP. But, he leads Whims and I'm forced out. I fail to get Crawdaunt in safely until I use it to pick off a Mega Blastoise at 8%. Sure you can argue that I'm bad and had many opportunities to bring it in, but the fact remains that doing so via doubles is highly dangerous. Mence then forces me out and ends up cleaning after critting Umbreon.

All in all, Crawdaunt isn't this ridiculously borked fat slaying mon that people seem to be claiming it to be. We have plenty of new offensive and defensive checks, including the rise of old mons like Whimsicott, Cobalion, Heliolisk, Kyurem, M-Snow, and NP Toxicroak, and new mons like Salamence, Mega Sceptile, Mega Sharpedo (can pick off after prior damage), Zapdos, and Mega Pert. I acknowledge that these aren't ez hard counters like we all would love, but the conjunction of all these new soft to decent checks make Crawdaunt much more manageable
I don't really save replays when I ladder unless I missclick the button while skipping turns. But I do disagree with you. I have 6-0ed some bulky teams with Choice Band Crawdaunt which legit got a kill everytime and the opponent ragequit and said "Ban this monster". I however do not have any replays, but I am sure there will be since there's a lot of time left for the suspect. Also I do not understand by what you mean by "Sure you can argue that I'm bad and had many opportunities to bring it in, but the fact remains that doing so via doubles is highly dangerous." Doesn't this imply to every Pokemon then? The thing I've been meaning to say is that if it gets a safe switchin, Crawdaunt will most likely KO something and then switch out. It's fairly easy to switch it in safely especially if you have a slow Volt Switcher like Forretress or just predict a switch and switch it in.
 
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