np: ORAS UU Stage 7.2 - Asteroid

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Hogg

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I can't lie, this suspect has been really annoying for me.

Here's the problem: I think Salamence is actually busted as hell, and is a really overwhelming threat to cover. So I should just vote ban, right? Well, yeah, and I almost certainly will. That being said, it just hurts my soul to see yet another halfway-decent source of hazard removal exit the tier, and there are non-problematic sets that are actually downright healthy for UU.

Anyhow, most people have covered the good reasons for banning Salamence, so I don't want to waste too much time on it. Suspect ladders are often not the best indicator of the metagame at large, but I've played on it quite a lot and the tier is definitely healthier with Salamence gone. Offensive teams no longer have to run Mamoswine or Whimsicott to keep themselves from being swept by DDmence. Balance teams don't need to play Guess-The-Coverage-Move game with MixMence (and weaken half their team in the process) anymore. Shuca Berry on every Steel-type is still pretty common on the suspect ladder, but it's way less essential with Salamence gone. Just in general, there is way less pressure in teambuilding with this meta... with the exception of hazard removal, which can be a good or a bad thing, depending on your point of view.

I like Salamence a lot. It is literally the single most versatile 'mon in the tier. I also think some of its best sets have largely gone unexamined (in particular, MixMence has mostly been dropped in favor of specially offensive with Defog and Roost, which I think is a waste - I actually think MixMence and DDmence are the two problematic sets, and Scarf/specially offensive/bulky defog Salamence would all be fine on their own). It has fantastic bulk, clears hazards, catches people by surprise, and puts in work every game. It'll hurt to see it go. But those two problematic sets are such a problem that I can't even remotely pretend it is healthy for the tier.
 
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Pearl

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My position regarding this suspect test is pretty similar to Hogg's, considering that hazard removal is, in my opinion, the single most important part of balance and bulky offensive teams in UU and Salamence is one of the most common Pokemon to perform that role (although I disagree with how often full specially offensive Defog Salamence is used, as it's a waste of some of this Pokemon's many traits. FatMence and MixMence with Defog, on the other hand, are incredibly good, and I'll certainly miss them a lot).

Jumping onto the important part: in spite of the positive traits it brings to the table, the truth is that Salamence needs to go if we want the UU metagame to evolve in a healthy manner. The reasoning behind that has already been mentioned time and time again, but it boils down to how easily it can either pressure slower builds or clean through weakened teams after a boost depending on its set, and how hard it is for most players to guess Salamence's set before it plays its role in the match (it's pretty easy to recognize the aforementioned Defog Salamence sets in team preview, but identifying which set Salamence is running between DD, CB, MixMence and Scarf is a whole lot trickier). The fact that there are very few solid Salamence switch ins overall also adds insult to the injury (Porygon2 and Suicune are the only 2 I can think of right now).

It's likely that I've exaggerated Salamence's good points a little throughout this post, but it's impossible to deny that it is a very consistent Pokemon overall and it's incredibly rare to hear someone saying things like: "ugh, Salamence was totally useless in this match up".

And since you can't push a Pokemon with wings off a cliff, here's some footage of Salamence willingly leaving the tier:

 
I'd like to say I've fully enjoyed this suspect. It's been the first time where I've beaten good players with any amount of regularity--I'm still losing to y'all more than I'm winning, but it feels like I'm making major strides. Or it could just be that Euphonos's team is carrying me :P But it's nice to feel like I'm starting to improve bit by bit. So I'm voting ban on that whim alone--the fact that I've enjoyed this ladder more than any other ladder seems reason enough to me.

I think, for me as a more "average" player, not having the pressure of a Salamence looming over your head from team preview is a really nice thing, in terms of the mental aspect of a game. If I see a Salamence and another potential spinner/defogger, like Empoleon or Crobat, I have to play the set guessing game and most of the time that's a game you can't win. Does Empoleon have both rocks and defog, or is the Salamence defog and the Empoleon ice beam to kill MY Mence? It takes a lot of the pressure off not only teambuilding, but also pre-game guesswork. There are a lot of teams that can either look more balance or more HO depending on the way the sets line up. Azelf-Swampert-Salamence can be bulky Pert, NP Azelf, and Defog Mence or it can be suicide lead Azelf, Rain Dance Pert and Scarf/DD Mence. Not only does removing Salamence from the tier help us by limiting its own flexibility and versatility, but it also helps me guess the other sets with more reliability.

I'm excited to see the tier without Salamence so I can try some new teambuilding ideas that I've grabbed from laddering. There are some cool things that I haven't had a chance to play with much because I need the crutch of good teams to get reqs, but after suspect ladder goes down I'm looking forward to trying out some new mons I haven't used much and some new types of win conditions.
 
So I got reqs on this thing, using basically the same team with some minor adjustments. The fact that I got them in less games than last time already means lack of Mence looming took some burden off of it. Funnily enough, much unlike the Zam suspect I lost more games earlier on and less the higher I got, and could've done even better had I not lost due to Sacred Fire not burning in a game—first against Machamp, then against Gatr—plus the obvious misplays on my part.

I honestly don't like having to say goodbye to Mence since it was with us the moment ORAS started and I just liked it so much, and it was S-rank all the time I think? so it feels like heresy to say that the increased offensive pressure caused it to be stronger against the current meta, but at the same time I realize it's easier to breathe without it (and I'm gonna say not just my team, which could be overwhelmed by it, but basically every team, even those that used their own Mence). I might end up voting DNB for the hell of it but I do feel like it being gone can be a step towards a healthy metagame. And if anything, I can keep running SD Pass Onion and getting away with it, heh.

I wanna talk about some things I saw + some others that might become more common after everyone adapts to a Mence-less meta (and forgive me if I'm talking about it as if it were a fact). First of all, I saw an obvious increase in Haxorus—not sure if enough to keep it from dropping—and Gyarados usage, plus more Darmanitan than ever. Weirdly, I can't say the same thing about Ape, since I only faced a couple besides dodmen 's one. I also found more Galvantula, even higher on the ladder, although some were Scarf for whatever reason; I guess to rk Gyara? I dunno. Similarly, I didn't notice a decrease in Mamo usage, but at least two of the ones I faced were Scarf. No idea why that's a thing. I faced like four Rain teams, too, and they were all over the second my Entei burned Mega Pert. Dunno why they kept trying to go mega against it, lol.

Lack of Intimidate Mence obviously increases Fire- and Fighting-types' viability, and even though Gyara can do the using them as setup bait in a similar way, its lower Speed does pose some issues. Firstly, unlike Mence it can't rk Entei reliably without Lum; secondly, it's outsped by Scarf Darmanitan even at +1, meaning it either has to take two Sheer Force Flare Blitzes (stronger than CB Entei's Sacred Fires) or not set up and attack outright and therefore be forced out by even more stuff; thirdly, there's the obvious "not outspeeding Aero after it megas" thing. Another issue is that Thunder Punch on Fighting-types such as Conk is a more common coverage move due to not needing Ice Punch much—unless you're really scared of Acrobatics Gligar, lol. So, it can't set up reliably on them either. Finally, and this is strictly theorymon, if we were to see an increase in Moxie Scarf Hera à la BW2 UU, it wouldn't be able to rk it as it would like to because it'd have to take two neutral STAB hits, which are stronger than two -1 Sheer Force Flare Blitzes so yea. Gyara is still pretty good, but those things make it immediately worse. I also doubt Hax can attempt to fill Mence's shoes, and it will always just be better off with Tailwind offense hitting really fucking hard. Outspeeding Entei before setup and Darm at +1 are two perks it has, admittedly.
Infernape in general should've gotten better even if its usage doesn't show that, but particularly physical variants have more reasons to be used now. The biggest issue with the SD set is really wanting to fit all of CC, Flare Blitz, Thunder Punch and Mach. While even Iron Fist boosted TP is just as strong as CC against neutral Water-types, the ability to also hit Gyara, Slowking, Jelli, and Tenta and not having to deal with defense drops against the others (well, except for Pert, obviously) means that it could be a serious option, even if +2 Mach is just all around useful.

I mentioned Acrobatics Gligar jokingly, but it might be more viable without the threat of Ice Punch. One of the nice things about it is that the four Fighting-types that don't run Knock Off, Cobalion, Infernape, Luke, and Croak are all weak to Ground (in Cobalion's case, "weak"), so it's not gonna be worse off against those. U-turn will probably still be the better option to pivot around and get the powerhouses in, but more defensive teams could enjoy using it.

tl;dr: Celebi for president.

EDIT: In case anyone wants to try the team out (really original, I know .–.):
Celebi @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 68 SpD / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Seed Bomb
- Recover

Cobalion @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Rock Polish

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Roost
- Wing Attack
- Earthquake

Entei @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed
- Flame Charge

Krookodile @ Black Glasses
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Pursuit
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
- Sludge Bomb
 
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I don't have any great conclusion to share tbh, everything about Salamence has been said, and I just feel bad we might be losing some good sets like FatMence or Offensive Defog. We are lacking good defoggers since Zapdos has gone and Salamene is one of the (if not the) best on this job. But DD Mence and offensive variants like Mixed 4 Attacks are really hard to deal with and pushes it over the edge.

About the suspect process itself, I think we could have had a double dragon suspect. Other tiers do double suspects all the time, and suspecting both top tier dragons wouldn't have been a bad thing by itself. On the other hand, it could have saved us a good time, since I believe Hydreigon and Mamoswine should get suspected, as I find them to restrict teambuild way more than Salamence has ever done. Celebi is another mon to look after. Stall has literally zero counterplay to NP Celebi, with Blissey being actually a setup fodder lol. Apparently the most reliable way to beat this is a slow U-Turn from Gligar to a Pursuit Mega-Aerodactyl, so... I guess we should be cautious with that onion lol.

I'm gonna talk about some cool stuff on this meta tho. I extensively used Mandibuzz in this suspect and I'm really surprised by how good it is right now. Mandibuzz has great mixed defenses, making it a reliable wall and putting in work against most matchups. It can switch on dark types like Krookodile and (non-Taunt) Hydreigon with ease and also check or counter some big threats running around like Feraligatr and Gyarados. Mandibuzz can also work as a defogger, especially since this meta is awful at hazard removal, but if possible I wouldn't recommend it. Good news are that Mandibuzz and Tentacruel works really well together, covering most each other weakness and being able to break fat teams with T-spikes + Taunt. If you are looking for a mon to build around, Mandibuzz might be your lady.

Escavalier has been as good as ever, especially with Specs Sylveon running rampage. It can switch on it anytime, but if you are willing to double, you might get yourself in a really good position since Escavalier can actually pressure most builds. Checks any Psychic type any time and also checks Mega-Aerodactyl, Krookodile, (some) Hydreigons, Mega-Beedrill, all those top tier offensive threats we are familiar with.

Swampert is the most reliable Pokemon in this tier by a good margin. Without Salamence to be immune to your EQs, resist your Scalds and drop Dracos on your head, you can easily setup rocks and pressure most of hazard removers. Imo Swampert is doing its same job at its best right now.

Other mons that are really cool, I have seen them around, but didn't have time to research more are Tornadus, Metagross and Conkeldurr. Conkeldurr in particular is an interesting choice to build around. I've used CB Iron Fist and BU Leftovers sets to relative sucess, both pressuring any build really hard. CB Iron Fist Hammer Arm is stupidly powerful, and BU Conkeldurr can probably 6-0 most stall running around.

Last but not least, I miss you, Zapdos.
 
Well. *rubs chin* I really don't know what to say about this.
I wasn't enraged at this suspect test, rather, confused. Salamence has always been a good Pokemon since the Gen 4 days, where it was Uber. However, this isn't the Gen 4 days, this is the ORAS days, and Salamence is.... meh?
I've never seen a lot of success with the DD set (probably because Iron Miss), and I never considered bulky Defog or 4 Attacks Mixed LO. While building a team with Salamence in it, Blissey always came to mind because Blissey always walled my Salamence (or just about any offensive Pokemon not named Heracross, Infernape or Lucario). Then we have Pokemon like Hydreigon who has almost no real switchins to all sets (Umbreon and Mandibuzz come to mind, Blissey gets rekt by Mixed Hydreigon.) Because of this, Hydreigon is extremely difficult to play around, probably harder than Salamence.
I'll keep this post MUCH shorter than my other posts and sum this all up with: I really think there are other things in UU that need to go more than Salamence. Alakazam was extremely strong, and pretty much the only Special Attacker capable of breaking Blissey with its raw power (and even more powerful with Magic Guard LO,) Mamoswine is ridiculously strong and I have no idea who decided it was a good idea to put it in UU in the place, and Hydreigon is just STRONG.
Malin said:
Swampert is the most reliable Pokemon in this tier by a good margin. Without Salamence to be immune to your EQs, resist your Scalds and drop Dracos on your head, you can easily setup rocks and pressure most of hazard removers. Imo Swampert is doing its same job at its best right now.
Except Hydreigon does this job that Salamence apparently does much better lol.
All right, I'm done. Can't wait to see how this will turn out. (really hoping Salamence stays lol) This is 420LegitShucks, signing out.
 
The difference between the suspect ladder and the regular ladder are pretty night and day in my eyes. Salamence was simply one of, if not the best at everything that it did. DD, Defog, and MixMence are all incredibly effective and have a place on basically every team for their offensive and defensive utilities. Salamence is so unpredictable and picking the wrong set often means that you lose (Either predicting the wrong coverage move on DD or getting outsped by Scarf, etc.) due to its immense power and speed on all spectrums. Infernape is the only Pokemon that comes anywhere close to Salamence's level of unpredictability and urgency when it comes to getting the prediction right. But, Salamence has much high sheer power and better defensive capabilities that makes Infernape's higher speed a little less important. (This isn't to mention the Offensive Utility sets which are also really fun to play around with and to consolidate roles)

Obviously Salamence isn't an impenetrable wall so that its defensive sets are impossible to break through, but its offensive sets' range of sets are too much for this tier to handle, and the suspect ladder was a great indication of this. There was a lot more variety this suspect now that each team didn't need at least two Mence checks. From other forms of hazard removal to more varied sweepers, I felt that the metagame was more stable without the threat of Mence looming over every match.
 
Where is the voting thread? I've PM'd Hikari with the proof I made the reqs (I made a typo in my original post, and realised it too late so couldn't edit).
 
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reachzero

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I voted Do Not Ban because Salamence is relatively balanced compared to other major threats in the metagame--if you have a bulky Fairy (Florges, Whimsicott or Sylveon, basically), Mence can't risk using Outrage or end up dying without accomplishing anything, while Dragon Claw represents a really significant drop in power. You might argue that having to have a Fairy is constraining, but let's face it: if you don't want to lose to Hydreigon, you already have a Fairy. I would definitely vote to ban Hydreigon, but Mence is handled by things that exist in the metagame for other reasons: Empoleon will still use Shuca for MAero, Whimsicott is one of 2-3 things that actually beat Gyarados. Gyarados, in my opinion, is far more constraining to team building than Mence. I'd like to consider Mence in isolation after Hydreigon, but I couldn't justify voting to ban it first.
 
Malin said:
Hydreigon can't Defog your rocks.
True. Very true.

daredevil said:
The difference between the suspect ladder and the regular ladder are pretty night and day in my eyes. Salamence was simply one of, if not the best at everything that it did. DD, Defog, and MixMence are all incredibly effective and have a place on basically every team for their offensive and defensive utilities. Salamence is so unpredictable and picking the wrong set often means that you lose (Either predicting the wrong coverage move on DD or getting outsped by Scarf, etc.) due to its immense power and speed on all spectrums. Infernape is the only Pokemon that comes anywhere close to Salamence's level of unpredictability and urgency when it comes to getting the prediction right. But, Salamence has much high sheer power and better defensive capabilities that makes Infernape's higher speed a little less important. (This isn't to mention the Offensive Utility sets which are also really fun to play around with and to consolidate roles)

Obviously Salamence isn't an impenetrable wall so that its defensive sets are impossible to break through, but its offensive sets' range of sets are too much for this tier to handle, and the suspect ladder was a great indication of this. There was a lot more variety this suspect now that each team didn't need at least two Mence checks. From other forms of hazard removal to more varied sweepers, I felt that the metagame was more stable without the threat of Mence looming over every match.
I can understand this, but at the same time, not really. Anything that beats Infernape beats Salamence (I'm talking to you two, Florges and Sylveon.) I'm certain that you don't need to run 2 Salamence checks just to beat the Dragon Pokemon. I'm actually more concerned about Mega Beedrill sweeping my team than Salamence lol.

reachzero said:
I voted Do Not Ban because Salamence is relatively balanced compared to other major threats in the metagame--if you have a bulky Fairy (Florges, Whimsicott or Sylveon, basically), Mence can't risk using Outrage or end up dying without accomplishing anything, while Dragon Claw represents a really significant drop in power. You might argue that having to have a Fairy is constraining, but let's face it: if you don't want to lose to Hydreigon, you already have a Fairy. I would definitely vote to ban Hydreigon, but Mence is handled by things that exist in the metagame for other reasons: Empoleon will still use Shuca for MAero, Whimsicott is one of 2-3 things that actually beat Gyarados. Gyarados, in my opinion, is far more constraining to team building than Mence. I'd like to consider Mence in isolation after Hydreigon, but I couldn't justify voting to ban it first.
If I was good, and could vote (I wish I could have a voice,) then I'd vote Do Not Ban as well. Instead of Gyarados, I'd suspect Mamoswine, because that thing is way too powerful with its unresisted STABs and 130 base Attack. Mamoswine is extremely restricting because of the same argument used for Salamence: if you don't bring a check to it, you're screwed. Unlike Mamoswine, more things beat Salamence than Mamoswine. I wouldn't be surprised if Salamence got banned, but at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't get banned. I'm sorry if my post sounds retarded, I'm a big OU player, I have little experience with UU.
 
Okay, 1) Florges and Sylveon aren't beating Infernape except on predicted Close Combats. The both of them 252/252+ are barely avoiding 2HKOs with Rocks up from Scarf Infernape's Flare Blitz, much less Life Orb, Band, or Swords Dance. 2) Dragon Dance Salamence, its most broken set, completely destroys the both of them with Iron Tail.
 
Okay, 1) Florges and Sylveon aren't beating Infernape except on predicted Close Combats. The both of them 252/252+ are barely avoiding 2HKOs with Rocks up from Scarf Infernape's Flare Blitz, much less Life Orb, Band, or Swords Dance. 2) Dragon Dance Salamence, its most broken set, completely destroys the both of them with Iron Tail.
+1 252 Atk Salamence Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Salamence Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 308-364 (85.5 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Salamence Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 316-374 (80.2 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

From full health, none of them are a guaranteed OHKO while they can do massive damage with Moonblast / Hyper Voice (Florges and Sylveon both OHKO). And that's assuming Iron Tail doesn't miss, which is assuming a lot. And of course if you run Iron Tail that either means no Earthquake, so you lose to Empoleon, or no Fire Blast which means you can't touch Forretress.

Cresselia's a great check too. It isn't 2HKOed by a +1 Outrage (or pretty much anything Salamence has), and after Stealth Rock Ice Beam OHKOes:

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cresselia: 195-230 (44 - 51.9%)
4 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 140-165 (31.6 - 37.2%)
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 192-226 (43.3 - 51%)
0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 272-324 (82.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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Stallion

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I can't pretend I'm an UU Veteran, but I picked up the metagame for uu open and got reqs. The difference between the meta pre and post Mence was actually astounding. I don't think any one set is broken, but Menace's versatility which makes it ridiculous to deal with. It can be a bulky Defogger, a fearsome mixed attacker and the best set up sweeper in the tier, and the worst part is that each of those sets have vastly different switch ins, so you have no idea what to switch in to it initially. Try and get Whimsicott in on a predicted dd and you might get roasted by Fire Blast, try and switch your bulky water/cress in and you could get toxiced by the defensive set, try and get a fairy in and the mixed attacker could hit it with an Iron Tail. Imo it's very over centralizing (and so is Hydreigon to a lesser extent, but that's a story for another day).
 

reachzero

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Salamence can only be guaranteed to get a chance to Iron Tail the Fairies if it has Dragon Claw rather than Outrage--otherwise it is stuck in a nasty 50-50 against bulky waters with Ice Beam. It would be tempting to complain about Waters needing Ice Beam, except that it is also your best play against Celebi, which is just as dangerous, it provides an actual attack against Toxicroak and Heliolisk, discourages Mega Sceptile from switching in, etc. If Mence uses Iron Tail against the Water it's almost certainly getting KOed, so the 50-50 involves real risk. It's irresponsible to say "Iron Tail beats Fairies" as if using Iron Tail on a predicted switch carries no risk. Four attack MixMence would surely be a different story, but I don't think I've ever used it or faced it so I can't be sure...
 
Salamence can only be guaranteed to get a chance to Iron Tail the Fairies if it has Dragon Claw rather than Outrage--otherwise it is stuck in a nasty 50-50 against bulky waters with Ice Beam. It would be tempting to complain about Waters needing Ice Beam, except that it is also your best play against Celebi, which is just as dangerous, it provides an actual attack against Toxicroak and Heliolisk, discourages Mega Sceptile from switching in, etc. If Mence uses Iron Tail against the Water it's almost certainly getting KOed, so the 50-50 involves real risk. It's irresponsible to say "Iron Tail beats Fairies" as if using Iron Tail on a predicted switch carries no risk. Four attack MixMence would surely be a different story, but I don't think I've ever used it or faced it so I can't be sure...
4 attacks MixMence is a solid wallbreaker, but much like the DD set there's always going to be something it can't beat. Outrage, Draco Meteor and Fire Blast are too good to pass up so that leaves you with either Iron Tail or Earthquake in the final slot. Run Iron Tail, you can't break Empoleon; run Earthquake, you can't break the bulky Fairies.
 

pokemonisfun

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Disappointment that Salamence was banned aside, is there any word on when/if the next suspect will be? Because as far as I can see even if the people who posted disagreed on whether Salamence should be banned (not too many people actually to be honest) almost everyone agreed that Salamence banning may not be enough. Celebi and Hydreigon I think have been floated around as potential suspects maybe a couple others that I missed.

Are we waiting for drops/rises or something or do we think the metagame is balanced and no suspects are necessary?
 
Disappointment that Salamence was banned aside, is there any word on when/if the next suspect will be? Because as far as I can see even if the people who posted disagreed on whether Salamence should be banned (not too many people actually to be honest) almost everyone agreed that Salamence banning may not be enough. Celebi and Hydreigon I think have been floated around as potential suspects maybe a couple others that I missed.

Are we waiting for drops/rises or something or do we think the metagame is balanced and no suspects are necessary?
In my opinion, banning Salamence allows us to view the metagame without the most constricting Pokemon and see what other issues arises. I know people were also throwing around Sylveon (just people in the UU room and in other discussions), though it's probably not that big of an issue.
 
Just because a Pokemon is S rank doesn't mean it's broken.

Celebi has average speed and numerous type weaknesses and this isn't hard to take advantage of. Being weak to Pursuit and Sucker Punch doesn't exactly help it either.

Here, let me show you: http://pastebin.com/3HuQTy3E

If you don't have at least one of these Pokemon on your team then it's intentional.

Celebi is S rank, no denying that. But unlike Salamence, it actually has a variety of answers. IMO UU is currently balanced. Please no suspects
 
Most of the "counters" are not counters to celebi. It has coverage, be it earth power, dazzling gleam or stabs, to hit them supereffective while outspeeding all of them unboosted. Not to mention, you can never bring one of those checks without sacking a mon or fearing a super effective move
 
I usually don't post but this hurts me so I just can't not reply this time. A lot of the "counters" you listed are really not counters at all. Arcanine, Chandelure, Doublade, Entei all lose to NP Earth Power (Chandelure doesn't even appreciate Psychic). Blissey loses to NP Leech Seed. Hydreigon, Kyurem and Mandibuzz all don't particularly appreciate NP Dazzling Gleam. While a lot of these can act as checks, Pokémon such as Chandelure or Hydreigon also need to be scarfed to outspeed and hit it (otherwise, you're playing "guess the coverage"). Gyarados does beat it - unless it is Life Orb NP. Literally every Counter you listed is nothing but a check.

As for your checks, while most of these act as fine checks, how is Toxicroak one? Unboosted LO Sucker Punch does 68.6% max to Celebi. To act as a check, you'd have to scarf your Toxicroak and that would mean you give up on checking Suicune as it just pressure stalls you at that point; you might as well not run Toxicroak then.

Now, that doesn't mean I think Celebi is broken, but it really doesn't have reliable counters, only a plethora of checks. Since people also tend to run it as their sole answer to bulky waters a lot, that behaviour can also be taken advantage of (see this lure by Sam, for example). It is a very centralizing Pokémon that can be very hard to play around safely and I think you are really underestimating its impact on the metagame.
 
Probably of little relevance to UU (or a lot, I don't know), but we lost Tangrowth. Your favorite Grass-Water Regenerator cores are now officially dead.
 
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