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np: ORAS UU Stage 7.2 - Asteroid
- Thread starter Saria
- Start date
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I mean, UU got Quagsire back. Stall's fine.
but pif's isn't
Pif can deal, not like he still isn't gonna be at the top of the ladder anyway.
Maybe it's time to subTangela in for Tangrowth lol?
My 2 cents:
Tangrowth gone means that Chesnaught has its worst rival eliminated. I think Chesnaught usage may rise due to Tangrowth becoming OU. Chesnaught still has to compete with a plethora of other grass types (Celebi, Shaymin, and maybe Roserade) but it may rise in usage. Tangrowth gone also means that Crawdaunt's usage may rise due to another bulky grass removed from play. (As for Tangela it is vulnerable to Knock Off removing its Eviolite and probably won't be viable).
As for Quagsire, it can check most setup pokemon bar ones with grass type moves due to Unaware. I think it would do well in UU. Welcome Quagsire!
Tangrowth gone means that Chesnaught has its worst rival eliminated. I think Chesnaught usage may rise due to Tangrowth becoming OU. Chesnaught still has to compete with a plethora of other grass types (Celebi, Shaymin, and maybe Roserade) but it may rise in usage. Tangrowth gone also means that Crawdaunt's usage may rise due to another bulky grass removed from play. (As for Tangela it is vulnerable to Knock Off removing its Eviolite and probably won't be viable).
As for Quagsire, it can check most setup pokemon bar ones with grass type moves due to Unaware. I think it would do well in UU. Welcome Quagsire!
Yeah Chesnaught is powerful and is in a better spot now. However the problem with Chesnaught is that while it has a great move pool, ability, hp, defense and attack.
It can't take special attacks at all and it's typing puts it at disadvantage. Then again on the opposite of the spectrum Sceptile, despite having a lot of weaknesses has a lot going for it. It has alot of resistances, a good ability to deal with electric types/attacks, as well as hitting extremely hard and fast against anything not just water types. I guess you have to weight the good with the bad.
It can't take special attacks at all and it's typing puts it at disadvantage. Then again on the opposite of the spectrum Sceptile, despite having a lot of weaknesses has a lot going for it. It has alot of resistances, a good ability to deal with electric types/attacks, as well as hitting extremely hard and fast against anything not just water types. I guess you have to weight the good with the bad.
With Salamence gone, Haxorus can now claim to be the fastest Dragon Dance user in the tier, and the most powerful as well.
What would be a good offensive Defogger? With Salamence gone, it seems like the only offensive hazard clearing mons are Mega Blastoise and Donphan.
What would be a good offensive Defogger? With Salamence gone, it seems like the only offensive hazard clearing mons are Mega Blastoise and Donphan.
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Swampert doesn't clear hazards, so I imagine you meant Crobat or Tentacruel; the other options are Forretress, Empoleon and Mandibuzz. I don't count Donphan as an option because it's not very good. Empoleon and Tentacruel are probably the easiest to fit on an offensive team because they switch well into Sylveon, which is something every offensive team needs; Forretress is nice for also giving you Spikes. None of the hazard control Pokemon handle Entei, though (Mega Blastoise does it very badly), so you have to think a lot harder to make the role compression work for an offensive-leaning team. Basically, hazards are a lot harder to clear, so stuff like Spikes + Mega Aerodactyl is pretty strong right now.
I was playing around with Special Defog Flygon over Mence, it's obviously significantly worse both offensively and defensively (it handles physical threats worse even after switching into SR, which is pretty hilarious) but Ground STAB is useful for the bunch of stuff it outspeeds—similar to Krook, but also non-Scarf Darm and Offensive K9 and at the very least a 50/50 against Offensive Tenta. I guess if played better than I did it could work, but it's a bit bait for Sylveon even if it does around 35% to 0/0 with LO, and that's never good. The power difference with Mence's Draco Meteor is also huge, you miss out on OHKOing Krook before it can do anything and take a ton from Knock Off. One plus, though, is that it pairs up pretty well with Gyara so you can have two lesser Mence replacing its roles.
I doubt that set alone is good enough for UU, but Defog Flygon in general is an option if there's nothing that fits your team better. Not being weak to SR and having an immunity to Ground is on itself a niche only shared by Gligar and you're not gonna be using that on offense (well I guess you could because slow U-turn, but it's generally better for BO, etc), so it's not completely terrible. Hell, I remember koko using Scarf Defog Gon at the start of XY UU, it might work if you want to still outspeed and KO +1 Haxorus and Scarf Darm/Hydra... But that's a really small niche I guess.
-1 252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 108-127 (32.6 - 38.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 162-191 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 200-237 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 266-315 (88.3 - 104.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 329-387 (99.3 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Flygon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 266-316 (80.3 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 162-191 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 200-237 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 266-315 (88.3 - 104.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 329-387 (99.3 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Flygon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 266-316 (80.3 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I doubt that set alone is good enough for UU, but Defog Flygon in general is an option if there's nothing that fits your team better. Not being weak to SR and having an immunity to Ground is on itself a niche only shared by Gligar and you're not gonna be using that on offense (well I guess you could because slow U-turn, but it's generally better for BO, etc), so it's not completely terrible. Hell, I remember koko using Scarf Defog Gon at the start of XY UU, it might work if you want to still outspeed and KO +1 Haxorus and Scarf Darm/Hydra... But that's a really small niche I guess.
I'd rather have Flygon being physically offensive, as that is the most reliable set it can run in UU; though it's still a niche set at best, it can still work on momentum-heavy teams.
Flygon @ Earth Plate
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Earthquake
- U-turn
I obviously used specially offensive because I wanted it to be able to tank at least one hit from Entei and KO back (similar to Mence), and physical variants can't do that 50% of the time (47.5% with misses). If you don't need that, I guess you can use physically offensive, but special is also a pretty nice K9 switchin since it can't tank a hit and burn you to recover health later. It's up to the user anyway.
So I wanted to share my opinion on Hydreigon and whether or not I think it should be suspected. I apologize in advance because pretty much everything I say will be common knowledge but it still needs to be reiterated to create a proper argument.
When thinking of Hydreigon, I most commonly think of its Life Orb and Scarf sets, and then Specs second. What I see here are sets that are incredibly hard to deal with for common playstyles; LO Taunt Roost does well against fat teams, LO 4 attacks is a problem for balanced teams and Scarf is a nightmare for offense. Looking at these sets one-by-one, they are all more or less manageable. But it really only takes one turn to take control of a game with Hydreigon, as being the right set and clicking the right coverage move as your opponent tries to guess around it can prove fatal for them.
LO Taunt Roost hits very hard and has few reliable answers. Those answers are mostly fairies for bulkier builds and Pokémon that can switch in and threaten it in return (e.g. Cobalion) on offense. The problem here lies in how well it deals with bulkier builds, mainly, as a lot of them cannot afford running fairies (example: standard pif stall) and 1v1ing Hydreigon, especially lategame when you do not have access to your full roster anymore, can be tricky, as your premiere special wall is going to be Blissey, which gets shut down by taunt. For the most part, Hydreigon can just PP stall Seismic Tosses. The only way of properly dealing with Hydra seems to be getting it statused and wearing it down slowly, and the only way these kind of stall builds have for that is usually scalding on a taunt and hoping to get the burn as early on as possible. It doesn't just have a fantastic match-ups against those teams, as even fairy balances get heavily disrupted with hazards up as taunting on a switch to a cleric fairy can majorly mess up your WishPass chain, or your ability to heal your mons from volatile status, all the while taking hazard damage and slowly wearing you down. This is especially potent and punishing in combination with toxic spikes with the chip damage quickly getting out of hand and opening up a hole as your best dragon answer / special wall – and the central pillar of the whole team - is likely beyond saving. On top of that, Taunt LO Hydreigon is not “useless” vs offense; its best switch-in is Cobalion, a Pokémon which takes up to 70% from a Draco Meteor, and while Hydreigon cannot switch in often against offense, it still gets at least one shot and severely weakening if not removing a gluemon that was likely meant to clean up and/or check more threatening Pokémon (such as Lucario) means that the match-up is not nearly as bad as it might look.
LO 4 attacks Hydreigon is another problem altogether; if you think you can just start tossing it with Blissey to wear it down, and it's not burnt, you're going to lose the central pillar of your team. If you want to check it with a fairy, you have to dodge Iron Tail. While that is not the most reliable option, it is an option that can punish you severely. Considering the switch-ins here are also very streamlined and obvious, packing the right attacks can be very punishing and usually doesn't bear a high risk but if you really cannot beat something for whatever reason (e.g. being burnt from a scald), switching out and gaining momentum that way is not the hardest of tasks.
The next big set would be scarf; this set has a “bad” match-up vs fat builds, but even those I would say aren't horrible match-ups. It still hits considerably hard and usually forces the opponent into their Blissey / fairy, and U-turning for momentum isn't too bad. If you can somehow remove / weaken checks, through other Pokémon those need to check or just pursuit trapping if it's the blob, Hydra turns into a massive threat even against those teams. The playstyle that this set does best against is undoubtedly offense, though, because offense has limited answers to it. It usually packs an offensive fairy like Whimsicott or Specs Sylveon, one of which gets bopped by Fire Blast and the other being a rather reliable answer so long it doesn't get worn down (U-turn and SR is a nice combo here). Cobalion is also a check but it also loses to Fire Blast. Empoleon, while a decent check on paper, is usually overloaded with trying to defog / set SR, so it is rather easily worn down. And once those mon are gone, Hydreigon is free to spam Draco Meteor or Dark Pulse. Offense has ways of punishing such behaviour in the form of set-up, but games can quickly turn into “I get a kill with my Hydra, beat whatever you set up with with another of my mons, sack the mon I used to beat your mon and get another kill with Hydra”. Basically, Hydreigon roulette.
Now, those are not all of Hydreigon's sets. While more niche, Banded Hydreigon can lure many of its usual checks and counters and remove common special walls in a single turn, opening up teams for a lot of scary special attackers; Specs Hydreigon, while not quite as niche, is a nightmare to play around as Flash Cannon now 2HKOs cleric fairies, no longer forcing it to rely on Iron Tail hitting. Both aren't useless even against the playstyles they do worst against. Another set I have been playing around with lately has been Tailwind 3 atk Hydra; while not the best set, it has helped me clutch out games against offense where my opponent's only way of still winning was outspeeding with a mon they kept in the back (e.g. Crobat, Aerodactyl) and revenge-killing me. I also didn't lose out on much when using this set as I mainly needed LO and 3 attacks, and the Tailwind is more filler. I haven't used Twave Hydreigon in a while but when I did, it was disgusting, as twave usually is. These sets, while all niche, are all perfectly viable options, further increasing its unpredictability.
Now, as I lined out the strengths of each set, I also briefly mentioned that they do have answers and “bad match-ups”. The problem with these bad match-ups is that even in its worst match-up for that particular set, Hydreigon does not do bad. It still performs its role as a member of the team, and it does so well. While not strictly “broken”, there are very few downsides to using Hydreigon – in any set, for that matter – and I believe it to be an overcentralizing force of this metagame. As such, I would like to see it suspected, at the very least; there is no known general consensus of whether Hydreigon should be in the tier or not, and there is grounds to believe that it might be “too good” or “too unhealthy”. I do believe that makes it suspect-worthy.
edit: I sniped you, hogg!
When thinking of Hydreigon, I most commonly think of its Life Orb and Scarf sets, and then Specs second. What I see here are sets that are incredibly hard to deal with for common playstyles; LO Taunt Roost does well against fat teams, LO 4 attacks is a problem for balanced teams and Scarf is a nightmare for offense. Looking at these sets one-by-one, they are all more or less manageable. But it really only takes one turn to take control of a game with Hydreigon, as being the right set and clicking the right coverage move as your opponent tries to guess around it can prove fatal for them.
LO Taunt Roost hits very hard and has few reliable answers. Those answers are mostly fairies for bulkier builds and Pokémon that can switch in and threaten it in return (e.g. Cobalion) on offense. The problem here lies in how well it deals with bulkier builds, mainly, as a lot of them cannot afford running fairies (example: standard pif stall) and 1v1ing Hydreigon, especially lategame when you do not have access to your full roster anymore, can be tricky, as your premiere special wall is going to be Blissey, which gets shut down by taunt. For the most part, Hydreigon can just PP stall Seismic Tosses. The only way of properly dealing with Hydra seems to be getting it statused and wearing it down slowly, and the only way these kind of stall builds have for that is usually scalding on a taunt and hoping to get the burn as early on as possible. It doesn't just have a fantastic match-ups against those teams, as even fairy balances get heavily disrupted with hazards up as taunting on a switch to a cleric fairy can majorly mess up your WishPass chain, or your ability to heal your mons from volatile status, all the while taking hazard damage and slowly wearing you down. This is especially potent and punishing in combination with toxic spikes with the chip damage quickly getting out of hand and opening up a hole as your best dragon answer / special wall – and the central pillar of the whole team - is likely beyond saving. On top of that, Taunt LO Hydreigon is not “useless” vs offense; its best switch-in is Cobalion, a Pokémon which takes up to 70% from a Draco Meteor, and while Hydreigon cannot switch in often against offense, it still gets at least one shot and severely weakening if not removing a gluemon that was likely meant to clean up and/or check more threatening Pokémon (such as Lucario) means that the match-up is not nearly as bad as it might look.
LO 4 attacks Hydreigon is another problem altogether; if you think you can just start tossing it with Blissey to wear it down, and it's not burnt, you're going to lose the central pillar of your team. If you want to check it with a fairy, you have to dodge Iron Tail. While that is not the most reliable option, it is an option that can punish you severely. Considering the switch-ins here are also very streamlined and obvious, packing the right attacks can be very punishing and usually doesn't bear a high risk but if you really cannot beat something for whatever reason (e.g. being burnt from a scald), switching out and gaining momentum that way is not the hardest of tasks.
The next big set would be scarf; this set has a “bad” match-up vs fat builds, but even those I would say aren't horrible match-ups. It still hits considerably hard and usually forces the opponent into their Blissey / fairy, and U-turning for momentum isn't too bad. If you can somehow remove / weaken checks, through other Pokémon those need to check or just pursuit trapping if it's the blob, Hydra turns into a massive threat even against those teams. The playstyle that this set does best against is undoubtedly offense, though, because offense has limited answers to it. It usually packs an offensive fairy like Whimsicott or Specs Sylveon, one of which gets bopped by Fire Blast and the other being a rather reliable answer so long it doesn't get worn down (U-turn and SR is a nice combo here). Cobalion is also a check but it also loses to Fire Blast. Empoleon, while a decent check on paper, is usually overloaded with trying to defog / set SR, so it is rather easily worn down. And once those mon are gone, Hydreigon is free to spam Draco Meteor or Dark Pulse. Offense has ways of punishing such behaviour in the form of set-up, but games can quickly turn into “I get a kill with my Hydra, beat whatever you set up with with another of my mons, sack the mon I used to beat your mon and get another kill with Hydra”. Basically, Hydreigon roulette.
Now, those are not all of Hydreigon's sets. While more niche, Banded Hydreigon can lure many of its usual checks and counters and remove common special walls in a single turn, opening up teams for a lot of scary special attackers; Specs Hydreigon, while not quite as niche, is a nightmare to play around as Flash Cannon now 2HKOs cleric fairies, no longer forcing it to rely on Iron Tail hitting. Both aren't useless even against the playstyles they do worst against. Another set I have been playing around with lately has been Tailwind 3 atk Hydra; while not the best set, it has helped me clutch out games against offense where my opponent's only way of still winning was outspeeding with a mon they kept in the back (e.g. Crobat, Aerodactyl) and revenge-killing me. I also didn't lose out on much when using this set as I mainly needed LO and 3 attacks, and the Tailwind is more filler. I haven't used Twave Hydreigon in a while but when I did, it was disgusting, as twave usually is. These sets, while all niche, are all perfectly viable options, further increasing its unpredictability.
Now, as I lined out the strengths of each set, I also briefly mentioned that they do have answers and “bad match-ups”. The problem with these bad match-ups is that even in its worst match-up for that particular set, Hydreigon does not do bad. It still performs its role as a member of the team, and it does so well. While not strictly “broken”, there are very few downsides to using Hydreigon – in any set, for that matter – and I believe it to be an overcentralizing force of this metagame. As such, I would like to see it suspected, at the very least; there is no known general consensus of whether Hydreigon should be in the tier or not, and there is grounds to believe that it might be “too good” or “too unhealthy”. I do believe that makes it suspect-worthy.
edit: I sniped you, hogg!
So I've been pretty vocal about this for a while, but I think that UU is way overdue for a Hydreigon suspect.
Someone asked me to post elsewhere why I thought Hydreigon was all of a sudden ban-worthy after being a UU staple for years, and here was my response:
So then comes the next question... what changed? I mean Hydreigon has been UU literally for years, so what actually changed for it? Well, I think there are a couple of big factors.
First of all, the common sets shifted and became more centered around sets that take advantage of Hydreigon's best aspect - i.e., its crazy-strong Draco Meteor. During most of my time playing XY and early ORAS, Scarf was far and away the most popular set, with the occasional "lure" Hydreigon with Superpower for Blissey/Umbreon. By UU Open last year, this had largely shifted in favor of LO Taunt Roost, which is around when I personally feel Hydreigon started being really overwhelming. (Not to say Scarf isn't good, by the way - it's a really great set, and Hydra is in my opinion far and away the best Scarfer in the tier.) And now, in addition to LO Taunt (which remains popular), Specs Hydreigon has been seeing more and more use, whereas previously I think it was considered mostly a niche set meant to bluff Scarf and surprise people.
Second, the meta has gotten increasingly more offensive with various drops and shifts. ORAS obviously saw a big jump in offensive threats right off the bat, and tier shifts brought some old standards like Heracross and eventually Celebi back, plus some big new threats like Gyarados, Mamoswine, Conk and Sylveon. Meanwhile, most of the heavy hitters still remain - we've banned Alakazam and Salamence but most of the old standards like Entei and Krookodile still remain. It's gotten to the point where building anything other than straight offense is a really delicate balancing act, since there are so many serious threats to account for. While it's the newer threats that have really tipped things over the edge, Hydreigon is far and away the most threatening (only Celebi really comes close), and is probably the most restrictive on teambuilding. You could ban all the new drops and shifts to make UU less crappy, simply because Hydreigon has a history of being UU - but that's stupid. Hydreigon is more busted than almost any of them (again, the only thing IMO that comes close is Celebi).
So yeah, enjoy that wall of text. None of this is new, by the way - I've said all of this many times (in far smaller chunks) on the Skype chat, in the PS room, etc. For what it's worth, by the way, I believe Hydreigon is actually more busted in this tier than three out of the five most recent UU bans: Salamence, Victini and Pidgeotite. (Yeah, Serp and Zam were more busted, but come on, that's hardly a surprise.)
EDIT: DAMN IT GC YOU KEEP SNIPING ME
Someone asked me to post elsewhere why I thought Hydreigon was all of a sudden ban-worthy after being a UU staple for years, and here was my response:
- Draco Meteor is a stupid, stupid move. It hits so ridiculously hard from Hydreigon's Special Attack that you really can't switch into it without a decently bulky resist (or a Blissey). You can't just pivot in something moderately bulky that KOs in return, because Draco just drops things. Hell, it does 45% to 252/252+ Umbreon (and the popularity of Taunt means that using Umbreon as your special wall is a liability against any team with a Taunt Hydreigon). This is literally THE benchmark Special Attack in UU - Draco Meteor from Hydreigon hits harder than Sylveon's Hyper Voice, +2 Celebi's Psychic or PZ's Adaptability Tri-Attack. It is a nuke, and if the opponent doesn't have a Fairy or a Blissey, there is almost zero drawback to clicking it every time Hydreigon comes in.
- Hydreigon gets really pointlessly good secondary STAB and coverage. Lots of things hit really hard, and I don't think that wallbreakers are inherently broken. But Hydreigon's secondary STAB is ALSO really good, hitting most Steel types hard and preventing things like Cresselia from recovering on it. Plus, you know, Hydreigon for some reason learns EVERY GODDAMNED MOVE IN THE GAME, so it has the ability to punch past every one of its counters. I'm not talking about some hypothetical Hydreigon with eight moveslots. Actual legitimate, functional Hydreigon sets can easily beat common counters, just running dual STABs + Fighting and Steel coverage.
- The rest of its (non-offensive) movepool ain't half bad either. Mostly I'm talking about Uturn, Taunt and Roost here, Roost in particular.
- Hydreigon is actually really useful defensively. In general I don't think wallbreakers are broken. For example - sorry Fuga - I don't actually think Mamoswine is broken, despite the fact that like Hydreigon, it's stupid hard to switch into. The difference, though, is that Mamoswine is both significantly slower (I'll get to that next) and also doesn't really possess much defensive utility. You're almost never switching Mamoswine into attacks not named Volt Switch, so with even a little bit of offensive pressure from the other team, Mamoswine is only ever coming in after something dies. But Hydreigon's bulk is actually pretty good, and its typing is kind of amazing defensively for the tier. When you add in the fact that it's Stealth Rock neutral and immune to all other entry hazards, Hydreigon is going to get multiple switch-in opportunities in most games, which other wallbreakers could only dream of. Entei and Kyurem can both apply similar offensive pressure and are also stupidly fat, but they are hazard weak and have way worse defensive typings for the tier, so again, they're not coming in as freely as Hydreigon. (Oh yeah, and it resists Pursuit, too. Not necessarily the biggest deal, but it adds into how few drawbacks there are to just bringing in Hydreigon and clicking Draco Meteor.)
- Actually decent Speed. I always see people point out Hydreigon's Speed like it's some great flaw. I'll admit, it's excruciating to see something get so close to the base 100 benchmark but not quite hit it, but... really? Hydreigon's fast af, dude. Yeah, it's the second slowest of the S ranks by a hair, but it's still faster than the entirety of A+ and 2/3 of the rest of the tier. I always hate it when I see people argue that you have to choose between beating offense with Scarf or beating fat teams with Specs/LO. Specs/LO might not be as crazy good versus offense as it is versus balance, but they still almost always put in work, especially since most things that outspeed it can't actually switch in. Hell, I just pulled up all of kokoloko's replays from SPL. He almost exclusively played offense, and yet in almost every single week, Hydreigon was as fast as or faster than 4 out of 6 pokemon on koko's teams (and this was in a meta when we had another fast offensive threat in Alakazam).
So then comes the next question... what changed? I mean Hydreigon has been UU literally for years, so what actually changed for it? Well, I think there are a couple of big factors.
First of all, the common sets shifted and became more centered around sets that take advantage of Hydreigon's best aspect - i.e., its crazy-strong Draco Meteor. During most of my time playing XY and early ORAS, Scarf was far and away the most popular set, with the occasional "lure" Hydreigon with Superpower for Blissey/Umbreon. By UU Open last year, this had largely shifted in favor of LO Taunt Roost, which is around when I personally feel Hydreigon started being really overwhelming. (Not to say Scarf isn't good, by the way - it's a really great set, and Hydra is in my opinion far and away the best Scarfer in the tier.) And now, in addition to LO Taunt (which remains popular), Specs Hydreigon has been seeing more and more use, whereas previously I think it was considered mostly a niche set meant to bluff Scarf and surprise people.
Second, the meta has gotten increasingly more offensive with various drops and shifts. ORAS obviously saw a big jump in offensive threats right off the bat, and tier shifts brought some old standards like Heracross and eventually Celebi back, plus some big new threats like Gyarados, Mamoswine, Conk and Sylveon. Meanwhile, most of the heavy hitters still remain - we've banned Alakazam and Salamence but most of the old standards like Entei and Krookodile still remain. It's gotten to the point where building anything other than straight offense is a really delicate balancing act, since there are so many serious threats to account for. While it's the newer threats that have really tipped things over the edge, Hydreigon is far and away the most threatening (only Celebi really comes close), and is probably the most restrictive on teambuilding. You could ban all the new drops and shifts to make UU less crappy, simply because Hydreigon has a history of being UU - but that's stupid. Hydreigon is more busted than almost any of them (again, the only thing IMO that comes close is Celebi).
So yeah, enjoy that wall of text. None of this is new, by the way - I've said all of this many times (in far smaller chunks) on the Skype chat, in the PS room, etc. For what it's worth, by the way, I believe Hydreigon is actually more busted in this tier than three out of the five most recent UU bans: Salamence, Victini and Pidgeotite. (Yeah, Serp and Zam were more busted, but come on, that's hardly a surprise.)
EDIT: DAMN IT GC YOU KEEP SNIPING ME
I'm exceedingly curious about the timing of "properly nominating" Hydreigon for a suspect test; most of what GrilledClawitzer and Hogg (perfectly) articulated about Hydreigon has been common knowledge since at least last year's open, and the condition of the metagame has very obviously turned to favour offensive styles. With SuMo less than 3 months away (as of yesterday), I very much figured something would have happened sooner. Something along the delay between the Alakazam and Salamence tests is what I had in mind. Regardless, something is better than nothing. I'm looking forward to how the next month or two will play out, since I do think there's still a few discussions that should be had.
Hydreigon's true menace is its (currently, and virtually) unparalleled ability to fit perfectly on every playstyle. It's commonly known for being the offensive engine of many balance and offensive teams, as very few Pokemon posses the immediate offensive pressure that Hydreigon does. Such pressure typically allows it to effectively ruin a core member of any opposing team, further increasing the difficulty of switching in or reliably checking it. For example, offensively-natured teams tend to pitch Cobalion at Hydreigon on the sheer notion that its typing and ability should leave it in a favourable position versus Hydreigon. Meanwhile Cobalion takes 45-50% from (unboosted) Draco Meteor with no means of reliable recovery, making switching in next time much more difficult. Keep in mind that LO would do upwards of 65%, making that feat all the more impossible.
Something GC alluded to is Hydreigon's defensive utility. Hydreigon has the tools necessary to viably fit on stall and defensive teams, providing a sound and potent answer to two massive nuisances to such playstyles: SubCM Chandelure and NP Taunt Houndoom. Having something that sufficiently resists both of their STAB and common coverage moves without having to run significant investment and maintain the ability to pressure other stall teams via Taunt and ridiculous coverage options gives stall teams a very valuable teammate. Not a knock on Stall or the builds that defer to Mega-Aerodactyl in that role, just painting a visual as to the sheer versatility of Hydreigon. Celebi and Entei find themselves in a similar boat: STAB moves are deterred, and specific coverage options (specifically Celebi and DG) are required. I find it obvious that Celebi would much rather have Earth Power since neither Psychic, Giga Drain, or even Leaf Storm threaten Steel-types (outside of Cobalion / Lucario and Psychic). Dazzling Gleam is very much strictly for slow(er) Hydreigon or catching them on the switch.
One point I think can never be hammered home enough is Hydreigon's centralization of the metagame. I've known players to complain about Suicune's effect but Hydreigon's is worse. You essentially must run Sylveon / SpDef Empoleon / Florges on bulkier builds to avoid Specs Hydreigon from mauling you every time it comes in. Even balance teams are pushed into running the first two based strictly on Hydreigon's prevalence in the tier.
Akin to most members of the Underused community, I believe in and support a Hydreigon suspect. Not necessarily the act of banning it (which is still a positive outcome if I'm honest), but rather the discussion and deeper investigation to its effects on the metagame. However getting rid of Hydreigon right now seems counter-intuitive to me right now, or at the very least is going to open a can of worms. Adding to what I mentioned above, Celebi will no longer be forced into running Dazzling Gleam, thus making countering its NP set virtually impossible. As of right now, Steel-types are the best bet since Celebi rarely tends to run Earth Power or Shadow Ball (unless the team its on is effectively Hydreigon-proof). It's Bronzong (if EP, SB decimates this) or revenge-kill, and I don't think that's a particularly great outcome (especially considering Bronzong doesn't exactly do much back considering Giga Drain's recovery, Gyro's PP, and Natural Cure). In turn, that makes Sylveon all the more dangerous, since Steels will now be pressured further. We also lose a check to Entei, but I find that to be less of a consequence since Suicune and a sizeable chunk of Pokemon in UU still handle it quite well.
In the metagame as of right now, Celebi is the #2 offensive threat (at most) behind Hydreigon. It shares a similarly broad versatility to Hydreigon, but isn't quite at the same level, as its less than stellar typing still allows it to freely switch in on opposing Scalds. Ridding UU of Hydreigon (right here I'm specifically talking Scarf, since it checks Celebi if it can come in safely) will greatly increase Celebi's effect and will probably throw UU into a "must get rid of Celebi right now" frenzy, but at the same time may reduce Sylveon's prevalence. Bit of a cointoss, but I figured the next few suspects (if we get that many) would result in some headscratching in terms of their order. Not that I'm criticizing the decision to start the Hydreigon conversation before the Celebi one - and I must stress that I'm not advocating for Celebi to be suspected before Hydreigon - I just find the timing, order, and effect of doing things this way intriguing. Playing around Celebi safely is harder but the list of good checks is significantly larger than Hydreigon's. Eventually, specific threats have to be looked at, I just find starting this way forces our hand when it comes to Celebi, whereas doing it the other way doesn't blast holes in how the metagame adapts post-suspect test.
Hydreigon's true menace is its (currently, and virtually) unparalleled ability to fit perfectly on every playstyle. It's commonly known for being the offensive engine of many balance and offensive teams, as very few Pokemon posses the immediate offensive pressure that Hydreigon does. Such pressure typically allows it to effectively ruin a core member of any opposing team, further increasing the difficulty of switching in or reliably checking it. For example, offensively-natured teams tend to pitch Cobalion at Hydreigon on the sheer notion that its typing and ability should leave it in a favourable position versus Hydreigon. Meanwhile Cobalion takes 45-50% from (unboosted) Draco Meteor with no means of reliable recovery, making switching in next time much more difficult. Keep in mind that LO would do upwards of 65%, making that feat all the more impossible.
Something GC alluded to is Hydreigon's defensive utility. Hydreigon has the tools necessary to viably fit on stall and defensive teams, providing a sound and potent answer to two massive nuisances to such playstyles: SubCM Chandelure and NP Taunt Houndoom. Having something that sufficiently resists both of their STAB and common coverage moves without having to run significant investment and maintain the ability to pressure other stall teams via Taunt and ridiculous coverage options gives stall teams a very valuable teammate. Not a knock on Stall or the builds that defer to Mega-Aerodactyl in that role, just painting a visual as to the sheer versatility of Hydreigon. Celebi and Entei find themselves in a similar boat: STAB moves are deterred, and specific coverage options (specifically Celebi and DG) are required. I find it obvious that Celebi would much rather have Earth Power since neither Psychic, Giga Drain, or even Leaf Storm threaten Steel-types (outside of Cobalion / Lucario and Psychic). Dazzling Gleam is very much strictly for slow(er) Hydreigon or catching them on the switch.
One point I think can never be hammered home enough is Hydreigon's centralization of the metagame. I've known players to complain about Suicune's effect but Hydreigon's is worse. You essentially must run Sylveon / SpDef Empoleon / Florges on bulkier builds to avoid Specs Hydreigon from mauling you every time it comes in. Even balance teams are pushed into running the first two based strictly on Hydreigon's prevalence in the tier.
Akin to most members of the Underused community, I believe in and support a Hydreigon suspect. Not necessarily the act of banning it (which is still a positive outcome if I'm honest), but rather the discussion and deeper investigation to its effects on the metagame. However getting rid of Hydreigon right now seems counter-intuitive to me right now, or at the very least is going to open a can of worms. Adding to what I mentioned above, Celebi will no longer be forced into running Dazzling Gleam, thus making countering its NP set virtually impossible. As of right now, Steel-types are the best bet since Celebi rarely tends to run Earth Power or Shadow Ball (unless the team its on is effectively Hydreigon-proof). It's Bronzong (if EP, SB decimates this) or revenge-kill, and I don't think that's a particularly great outcome (especially considering Bronzong doesn't exactly do much back considering Giga Drain's recovery, Gyro's PP, and Natural Cure). In turn, that makes Sylveon all the more dangerous, since Steels will now be pressured further. We also lose a check to Entei, but I find that to be less of a consequence since Suicune and a sizeable chunk of Pokemon in UU still handle it quite well.
In the metagame as of right now, Celebi is the #2 offensive threat (at most) behind Hydreigon. It shares a similarly broad versatility to Hydreigon, but isn't quite at the same level, as its less than stellar typing still allows it to freely switch in on opposing Scalds. Ridding UU of Hydreigon (right here I'm specifically talking Scarf, since it checks Celebi if it can come in safely) will greatly increase Celebi's effect and will probably throw UU into a "must get rid of Celebi right now" frenzy, but at the same time may reduce Sylveon's prevalence. Bit of a cointoss, but I figured the next few suspects (if we get that many) would result in some headscratching in terms of their order. Not that I'm criticizing the decision to start the Hydreigon conversation before the Celebi one - and I must stress that I'm not advocating for Celebi to be suspected before Hydreigon - I just find the timing, order, and effect of doing things this way intriguing. Playing around Celebi safely is harder but the list of good checks is significantly larger than Hydreigon's. Eventually, specific threats have to be looked at, I just find starting this way forces our hand when it comes to Celebi, whereas doing it the other way doesn't blast holes in how the metagame adapts post-suspect test.
I have seen a lot of people calling for a Mamoswine suspect as well, however I still am not convinced and am slightly confused even. Its less than good speed tier and bad bulk makes it so it can never really switch into attacks, and the amount of super bulky mons that are able to force it out the next turn make me question why people believe it is broken.
Maybe someone can explain why there have been calls for a ban and change my view?
ninja edit: also, i always thought that we didnt discuss how a meta is going to be affected by a ban until after the ban.
Maybe someone can explain why there have been calls for a ban and change my view?
ninja edit: also, i always thought that we didnt discuss how a meta is going to be affected by a ban until after the ban.
Ya, a Hydreigon suspect is definitely warranted at this point in time in the Meta especially when bulky offense and balance seem to be the most effective archetypes in the meta currently. Hydreigon is the best balance breaker one can use atm since like what Hogg stated, both its STABs complement each other extremely well which allows it to break down many of UU's most common walls + it's insane coverage which lets it deal with potential switchins like Fairy and Steel types. People also forget to mention that it's ability also greats it many switchin opportunities thanks to it being immune to one of the most common offensive attacks in the meta. At this point, the opposing team really lacks any concrete solution to avoid one of their mons being OHKOed or at least heavily damaged with the right prediction. It's too good at punishing even optimal plays and should be suspected at this time.
Also Celebi is another potential threat on the chopping block in my eyes, but i will save that argument after the potential Hydreigon suspect.
Also Celebi is another potential threat on the chopping block in my eyes, but i will save that argument after the potential Hydreigon suspect.
Hydreigon is ridiculous, in my opinion far more so than Salamence was. Neutrality to Stealth Rock, resistance to Pursuit and STAB Dark Pulse go a long way, and unlike Salamence, it doesn't need to get locked in to Dragon attacks, making it much less vulnerable to Fairies. In fact, Hydreigon absolutely punishes stuff like Empoleon and Milotic that would give Salamence issues. I too believe Life Orb sets are the best for Hydreigon--three attacks with Roost is ridiculously hard to contend with considering that your best options--Sylveon/Florges and Whimsicott--can easily be finished if you switch into Iron Tail even once. I'm not that big a fan of Taunt Hydreigon considering how common Sylveon and Whimsicott are, but I do love four attacks Hydreigon for the way it wrecks Blissey and Porygon2, which normally wall three attacks Hydreigon. Given Hydreigon's good (enough) speed tier, it creates several risk/reward dilemmas that few other very threatening Pokemon can.
1. Hydreigon can switch in for free on Earthquake and with minimal risk on almost every support Pokemon, including everything other than Diancie that does well against Entei. This distinguishes it from Mamoswine and Crawdaunt, which are similarly threatening but vastly more difficult to bring in. Pursuit resistance means it doesn't really care about Mega Aerodactyl.
2. Hydreigon doesn't need set-up turns. Every turn it is in is a threatening turn.
3. Hydreigon can click Dark Pulse with almost no risk a huge percentage of the time, especially if the enemy Fairies are Specs Sylveon or Pixie Plate Whimsicott. Krook is slower, and the Fighting types (Cobalion included) take way too much damage from Draco Meteor to come comfortably into Hydreigon. Conkeldurr is a partial exception, which goes a long way toward what makes Conk really good.
4. Every time you bring in a Hydreigon check it involves heavy risk, even if you already know the set. Because of point #1, this risk is likely be repeated multiple times. Switching Sylveon into Dark Pulse once means that Iron Tail will bring it into a critical range, particularly if Spikes or Toxic Spikes are in play, strong possibilities since Tentacruel and Forretress each pair very well with Hydreigon.
I agree with the others above not merely because Hydreigon has "no counters" (which could also be said of Mamoswine and Crawdaunt) but because it is easy to bring in, has great sustainability over the course of a game (even with Life Orb!) and is immediately threatening even to its alleged hard checks. Hydreigon creates amazing reward for minimal risk, and constrains teambuilding to an incredible degree (one hard check is not sufficient). If Hydreigon is not a deserving suspect, I don't know what ever would be.
Postscript: While not nearly as broken, I find Gyarados more constraining on team building than any other Pokemon in UU.
1. Hydreigon can switch in for free on Earthquake and with minimal risk on almost every support Pokemon, including everything other than Diancie that does well against Entei. This distinguishes it from Mamoswine and Crawdaunt, which are similarly threatening but vastly more difficult to bring in. Pursuit resistance means it doesn't really care about Mega Aerodactyl.
2. Hydreigon doesn't need set-up turns. Every turn it is in is a threatening turn.
3. Hydreigon can click Dark Pulse with almost no risk a huge percentage of the time, especially if the enemy Fairies are Specs Sylveon or Pixie Plate Whimsicott. Krook is slower, and the Fighting types (Cobalion included) take way too much damage from Draco Meteor to come comfortably into Hydreigon. Conkeldurr is a partial exception, which goes a long way toward what makes Conk really good.
4. Every time you bring in a Hydreigon check it involves heavy risk, even if you already know the set. Because of point #1, this risk is likely be repeated multiple times. Switching Sylveon into Dark Pulse once means that Iron Tail will bring it into a critical range, particularly if Spikes or Toxic Spikes are in play, strong possibilities since Tentacruel and Forretress each pair very well with Hydreigon.
I agree with the others above not merely because Hydreigon has "no counters" (which could also be said of Mamoswine and Crawdaunt) but because it is easy to bring in, has great sustainability over the course of a game (even with Life Orb!) and is immediately threatening even to its alleged hard checks. Hydreigon creates amazing reward for minimal risk, and constrains teambuilding to an incredible degree (one hard check is not sufficient). If Hydreigon is not a deserving suspect, I don't know what ever would be.
Postscript: While not nearly as broken, I find Gyarados more constraining on team building than any other Pokemon in UU.
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It's a bit off-topic and probably a question better suited for the Simple Questions thread, but I can certainly understand why people want to see Mamoswine go. It is up there with Hydreigon, Kyurem and Entei as one of the hardest 'mons to switch into. In some ways it's even worse than Hydreigon in that respect, because at least the "good" answers to Hydreigon (read: Sylveon/Florges and kinda-sorta Empoleon, though the latter struggles heavily in anything resembling a longer game) are all really good Pokemon in this meta.
That said, I personally find Mamoswine far easier to account for when teambuilding, simply because you can build teams that don't necessarily have a switch-in to Mamo as long most of your team can apply decent offensive pressure. The fact that it gets so few switch-in opportunities, has far worse bulk overall and lacks recovery means that (in my opinion) Mamoswine offers a level of counterplay that really doesn't exist with Hydreigon. This is made worse by the fact that it underspeeds a lot of key threats that it should beat by virtue of its typing, almost all of whom can hit Mamo hard in return.
But even with its drawbacks, Mamoswine is still a top-tier wallbreaker, and is definitely one of the reasons why even balance teams have been forced to either skew a bit offensive or rely on things like Cresselia or Alomomola.
Neither here nor there since this discussion is about Hydreigon, but since you asked...
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just dropping in to say that uturn hydra + dugtrio is beyond ridiculous (sludge wave gets whimsi too).
there's literally no drawback to using hydra, because nothing that switches into the attacks can punish you for clicking draco. like i get it, blissey and fairies can switch into a draco. but then what? the best they can do is pass a wish (which comes at the cost of not healing oneself). theclosest you'll get to losing momentum when clicking draco are specs-sylv and coba. one can be killed w. a coverage move and the other can switch in exactly once.
the relation between opportunity cost (basically just one slot) and the utility and abilities it offers is just unbalanced.
there's literally no drawback to using hydra, because nothing that switches into the attacks can punish you for clicking draco. like i get it, blissey and fairies can switch into a draco. but then what? the best they can do is pass a wish (which comes at the cost of not healing oneself). theclosest you'll get to losing momentum when clicking draco are specs-sylv and coba. one can be killed w. a coverage move and the other can switch in exactly once.
the relation between opportunity cost (basically just one slot) and the utility and abilities it offers is just unbalanced.
This isn't exactly true. Specs Hyper Voice from Sylv hits really damn hard so that's something you don't want to let in for free (you did mention this though). There also is the fact that Draco puts you at -2 SpA so anything with a some semblance of bulk can punish a Draco. Lucario, Slurpuff, Cobalion, Mega Swampert, Gyarados off the top of my head set up easily on -2 Hydreis although the Luc has to be wary for Superpower (the least common move). However once Hydrei reveals LO it becomes less of a problem for offense since 324 is good speed Bt not so good that it outspeeds everything. Not to mention wallbreakers that no longer fear a Hydreigon with 175 SpA.
It's unfair to blame Hydreigon when defensive checks do exactly what they're supposed to do: switch in and kinda sit there. This isn't unique to Hydreigon, though. Very few things switch into Entei and those that do can just throw Scalds back at you. That's the tradeoff you get with running defensive Pokemon, you get a reliable switch at the cost of offensive pressure
Things like Lucario, MegaPert, Gyara and Cobalion can all try to set up on a -2 Hydreigon, but literally none of them can comfortably switch in to LO or Specs Hydreigon. LO Draco does 70-80% to MegaPert, has a guaranteed OHKO on Gyarados after rocks, and does a ridiculous 60% to Cobalion (a moderately bulky Pokemon that resists). Slurpuff of course can come in safely on a Draco, but doesn't want to switch into any other moves from LO/Specs (if rocks are down, switching into LO Dark Pulse is guaranteed to prevent a BD). Lucario is almost always 2HKOd by Draco despite both the resist and the -2 drop. Yes, offensive teams can try to sack something to Hydreigon and set up on it, which is why I agree that LO/Specs is way more dangerous versus bulkier teams than versus offense, but even in those instances where Hydreigon's matchup is at its worst, it still almost always ends up doing work (as evidenced by the above calcs).
And yeah, there are other wallbreakers that can apply almost as much pressure as Hydreigon, like the Entei you referenced. But Hydreigon is faster and despite Entei's greater bulk gets way more switch-in opportunities, thanks to not being hazard weak plus recovery plus having a typing that can easily switch in on common moves like Scald.
And yeah, there are other wallbreakers that can apply almost as much pressure as Hydreigon, like the Entei you referenced. But Hydreigon is faster and despite Entei's greater bulk gets way more switch-in opportunities, thanks to not being hazard weak plus recovery plus having a typing that can easily switch in on common moves like Scald.
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