np: ORAS UU Stage 7.3 - See No Evil | Baton Pass Suspect - see post #110

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Honestly this should have been done ages ago by Smogon as a whole, instead of this convoluted "No BP + Speed + Other Stat boosts" they went with.

I've always thought the only real use of BP that is a non-issue is Drypass/Wishpass, but then we'd just be going from one complex ban to another if we excluded it. Best option in my opinion is to just straight remove Baton Pass. The only mons that would really suffer would be the Cleric Eevees(Umbreon/Espeon/Vaporeon) if they chose it for "safer" passing, and Shedinja(who does take a somewhat nasty hit).
 
Well, as far as i can see, this discussion seems to revolve around Celebi. (#ShibaH8) However, i believe it kinda falls into the category of 4th slot syndrome: Despite the popularity of bulky waters among the UU tier, which gives Celebi free switch-ins most of the time (why people don't just run ice beam?), Celebi will lack the coverage to either beat poisons or ghosts, and faster pokemons with dark, bug & flying moves can switch into it once the lack of coverage is presented. I don't find it bad to have your teambuilding limited in a way you have to run something capable of outspeeding celebi. Speed tiers are something to consider within any metagame.

Despite the Celebi disussion, I believe Baton Pass is healthy at the current meta. Gligar pass and Chicken pass are unusual fun strategies to see, for example.
This is just my opinion, i hope i didn't disrespect anyone, neither wish to be disrespected by future posts.
 
Okay I think I read enough to understand whats going on and what people think. I actually didn't plan to post, however it sort of annoys me how people are trying to defend Baton Pass with bad arguments. This is also regarding Celebi somehow so yeah.
With the addition of Celebi Baton Pass has gotten really troublesome imo, nowhere as dangerous when it was up to solely Gligar/Mienshao/Absol (lol) as "viable" passers, former being the most popular one out of then. While I think it was pretty manageable preventing Gligar from passing, in my opinion, Celebi takes it to a whole other dimension. The main issue is the versatility of Celebi and therefore the incredible unpredictability of whats coming next. Don't get me wrong I don't think Celebis broken, no, by no means it's really just Baton Pass which makes Celebi considerably broken. Celebi's just incredibly versatile and effective in its rolls but not really broken in perfoming any of these. Like the Offensive Rocker one, Nasty Plot dual stabs, Perish Song on stall, Swords Dance Sweeper, Choice Scarf; all of these are good but nowhere broken, it just really is the problem of Baton Pass which makes you think twice about it, Oh hey Nasty Plot Celebi lemme attack, oh wait what if I Dark Pulse here and he passes to Hydreigon!? Damn I lost my Houndoom because it had Epower! See what I mean? Without Baton Pass you would just see ah NP so probably Dual Stabs+Coveragr without having to worry that a Pokémon will get a free +2 while you opt for the best possible move. Same with Weakness Policy pass, oh Celebi easy Aerial Ace =) as they proceed to pass into Sharpedo and get 3-4 kills at average. I guess SD Pass is the most predictable but even then it'll take you a turn to know what it's going to do and you might switch into the wrong Pokemon as they get off a free Pass into a dangerous sweeper. All in all Celebi def isn't the problem Baton Pass is and we'll take care of it accordingly, imo banning the entire move would be the easiest and best solution. While I do agree dry-passing is fine, I don't think we should do complex bans such as Baton Pass + only stat boost because that'd just end up in confusion and stuff like that, banning the move as a whole is the way to go since this would also prevent further issues we could have with Baton Pass since theres probably something exploitable. God knows maybe there are crazy people who make Ingrane/Aqua Ring Pass broken or stuff like that.

This post might content dumb stuff since I'm quite tired and writing from my phone but I'm pretty sure you catch my drift.
 
So, I'll give all my thoughts here:
A) Ban Baton Pass
This one is probably the worst option imo. Baton Pass isn't itself broken, but it's when paired with boosting Moves/Abilities/Items, and a potential ban wouldn't be beneficial for Pokémon like Choice Specs Sylveon, that can use Baton Pass to have momentum, nothing more, and this is not broken at all. The only Pokémon that's broken with Baton Pass is Celebi, but it isn't broken because of Baton Pass, it's only broken because it can abuse of Swords Dance/Nasty Plot + Baton Pass.

B) Ban Baton Pass + stat boosting moves and items
This one is, imo, the right pick. It might be complex how dodmen said, but I don't think that it's that complex. First of all, Celebi is basically the only 'mon that is doing the use of Baton Pass + boosting Move/Ability/Item at the moment, I'm not talking about other strategies like Combusken + Xatu. I'll show a common scenario here:
  • In the team preview, your opponent has both Sharpedo and Celebi, you have two options:
    • Play around Celebi carefully to not be sweeped by Mega Sharpedo, but you're crushed if it has Nasty Plot;
    • Play around Celebi expecting a Nasty Plot set and playing around it with Pokémon that you carry to defeat ONLY the Nasty Plot set, like Heavy Slam/Gyro Ball Forretress, but if you're really risking it, you have basically no ways to play against the Baton Pass set;
      • Right now, your opponent clicks Swords Dance, and you goes directly to a Pokémon that can try to defeat Sharpedo, but you must sack it because it must do a big effort ONLY to defeat Mega Sharpedo; let's say that this Pokémon is Bulk Up Conkeldurr. You go to it and your opponent clicks Baton Pass to another Pokémon, that isn't Mega Sharpedo; let's say that it is Metagross. What's your play now? Sack Conkeldurr or any other Pokémon to try to OHKO it with a super effective move? After your sack, what happens if Celebi passes a Swords Dance to another Pokémon?
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that Baton Pass, when combined with a boosting move, has basically no counterplays. If you sack a Pokémon or two to defeat only one Pokémon that received the boost, you are still sweeped by another Pokémon. This is extremely broken.

C) Suspect Celebi
This one is really hard to me, but I'm leaning to disagree that Celebi is broken right now. The metagame simply adapted to it, and nothing is wrong with this. It may be the only good NP/SD Passer actually, but this is what turns Celebi into a broken 'mon right now. I really disagree with the Defog Salamence argument because the NU Community and council understood that the wrong thing wasn't Xatu because of its ability to keep status away, and they understood that the passer (Combusken) wasn't the broken 'mon there because its only function aside of being a Special Sweeper was passing Speed to Xatu. This is exactly what's happening right now. Celebi passes Swords Dances or even Nasty Plots to Pokémon like Sharpedo and Yanmega and the opponent is sweeped. Also, saying that Defog Salamence wasn't broken and this is because Baton Pass is much more complex than Defog. Defog is a hazard removal move that functions well in some Pokémon, but Baton Pass is completely different, because it has too much functions actually, it not only gives a Pokémon momentum, but it can pass abusing stats to a Pokémon, and that's why we can't compare it to Defog - Baton Pass is much more complex. If I remember correctly, Baton Pass was nerfed to 3 Pokémon like 2 years ago, and then limited to only one Pokémon with Baton Pass per team, but the UnderUsed Metagame need another ban, this may be complex and all, but it's necessary imo.

Now onto Celebi. I really think that the metagame adapted to it, and when I'm saying this, I'm saying that almost every team carries a Celebi check, doesn't matter what. I'll list in the spoiler below all the Counters/Checks/Revenge Killers for each offensive Celebi variant.
Nasty Plot + STABs/ Offensive Stealth Rock / Choice Scarf

Counters: Bronzong, Hydreigon, Metagross, Forretress, Doublade, Mega Houndoom, Mandibuzz, Mega Aggron.
Checks: Blissey, Kyurem, Mega Aerodactyl, Reuniclus, Cresselia, Celebi, Entei, Cobalion, Florges, Mega Abomasnow, Empoleon, Porygon2, Whimsicott, Sableye.
Revenge Killers: Darmanitan, Galvantula, Rotom-Heat, Heracross, Mienshao, Infernape, Crobat, Mega Beedrill, Mega Absol, Chandelure, Mega Sharpedo, Tornadus.
Nasty Plot + STABs + Leech Seed
Counters: Bronzong, Hydreigon, Metagross, Forretress, Doublade, Mega Houndoom, Mandibuzz, Mega Aggron.
Checks: Kyurem, Mega Aerodactyl, Reuniclus, Celebi, Entei, Cobalion, Florges, Mega Abomasnow, Whimsicott.
Revenge Killers: Darmanitan, Galvantula, Rotom-Heat, Heracross, Mienshao, Infernape, Crobat, Mega Beedrill, Mega Absol, Chandelure, Mega Sharpedo, Tornadus.
Nasty Plot + STABs + Dazzling Gleam
Counters: Bronzong, Metagross, Forretress, Doublade, Mega Houndoom, Mega Aggron.
Checks: Blissey, Mega Aerodactyl, Reuniclus, Cresselia, Celebi, Entei, Cobalion, Florges, Mega Abomasnow, Empoleon, Porygon2, Whimsicott.
Revenge Killers: Darmanitan, Galvantula, Rotom-Heat, Heracross, Mienshao, Infernape, Crobat, Mega Beedrill, Mega Absol, Chandelure, Mega Sharpedo, Hydreigon, Tornadus.
Nasty Plot + STABs + Shadow Ball
Counters: Hydreigon, Forretress, Mega Houndoom, Mandibuzz, Mega Aggron.
Checks: Blissey, Kyurem, Mega Aerodactyl, Entei, Cobalion, Florges, Mega Abomasnow, Empoleon, Porygon2, Whimsicott, Sableye.
Revenge Killers: Darmanitan, Galvantula, Rotom-Heat, Heracross, Mienshao, Infernape, Crobat, Mega Beedrill, Mega Absol, Chandelure, Mega Sharpedo, Tornadus.
Nasty Plot + STABs + Earth Power
Counters: Bronzong, Hydreigon, Forretress, Mandibuzz, Mega Aggron.
Checks: Blissey, Kyurem, Mega Aerodactyl, Reuniclus, Cresselia, Celebi, Florges, Mega Abomasnow, Porygon2, Whimsicott, Sableye.
Revenge Killers: Darmanitan, Galvantula, Rotom-Heat, Heracross, Mienshao, Infernape, Crobat, Mega Beedrill, Mega Absol, Chandelure, Mega Sharpedo, Cobalion, Tornadus, Mega Houndoom.
Nasty Plot + STABs + Hidden Power Fire
Counters: Hydreigon, Mega Houndoom, Mandibuzz, Mega Aggron.
Checks: Blissey, Kyurem, Mega Aerodactyl, Reuniclus, Cresselia, Celebi, Entei, Cobalion, Florges, Empoleon, Porygon2, Whimsicott, Sableye.
Revenge Killers: Darmanitan, Galvantula, Rotom-Heat, Heracross, Mienshao, Infernape, Crobat, Mega Beedrill, Mega Absol, Chandelure, Mega Sharpedo, Tornadus.
Nasty Plot + STABs + Signal Beam
Counters: Bronzong, Metagross, Forretress, Doublade, Mega Houndoom, Mandibuzz, Mega Aggron.
Checks: Blissey, Kyurem, Mega Aerodactyl, Entei, Cobalion, Florges, Mega Abomasnow, Empoleon, Porygon2, Whimsicott, Sableye, Hydreigon.
Revenge Killers: Darmanitan, Galvantula, Rotom-Heat, Heracross, Mienshao, Infernape, Crobat, Mega Beedrill, Mega Absol, Chandelure, Mega Sharpedo, Tornadus.
Standard Swords Dance (SD + Seed Bomb + Zen Headbutt + Sucker Punch)
Counters: Bronzong, Hydreigon, Forretress, Doublade, Mega Houndoom, Mandibuzz, Mega Aggron.
Checks: Kyurem, Mega Aerodactyl, Celebi, Entei, Cobalion, Mega Abomasnow, Empoleon, Porygon2, Whimsicott, Sableye, Metagross.
Revenge Killers: Darmanitan, Galvantula, Rotom-Heat, Heracross, Mienshao, Infernape, Crobat, Mega Beedrill, Mega Absol, Chandelure, Mega Sharpedo, Tornadus.​


Celebi is just not like Hydreigon, Salamence or Alakazam. It is overcentralizing, but not broken. Its huge movepool allows it to do things that no other Pokémon in the tier does, but seriously, no one is giving setups opportunities to Celebi anymore, and if you're giving, you may have an ace on the hole (I think that's what you say lol) like Signal Beam Celebi or even Signal Beam Heliolisk/Rotom-Mow, and this is why I don't think that Celebi is broken. Most of the teams are carrying a Celebi check/counter/whatever else, just like they must do with omnipresent threats like Hydreigon, Sylveon and Mega Aerodactyl. The variety of its checks/counters are showing that Celebi is basically showing how all the playstyles can play around it very well, from Stall to Hyper Offense. I know that I said like one month ago that Celebi was the real problem and that Hydreigon wasn't broken at all, but I think that the metagame adapted really well to it, and this is why I think that it isn't broken, not at the moment.

D) Do nothing
The tier has a real problem at the moment, how I explained above.

Tl;Dr: Banning Baton Pass + Boosts is the right pick imo.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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I've got a lot of mixed feelings on the matter at hand here, but ultimately, I don't really care about the outcome of Baton Pass in UU unless this discussion culminates in a suspect for a certain "other" Pokemon. So I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a bit and just present some info to you, and allow people to come to their own conclusions on the state of Baton Pass...real quick, I decided to pull up the UU 1630 stats from last month, and I'm gonna post the usage stats of mons that carry Baton Pass, for both the regular UU and Suspect UU ladders:

Sylveon - 29.791% / 26.434%
Celebi - 22.884% / 13.848%
Espeon - 7.641% / 11.585%
Vaporeon - 17.443% / 22.528%
Umbreon - 13.515% / 11.076%
Gligar - 10.506% / N/A
Smeargle - 33.916% / 35.937%
Togetic - 13.812% / 23.428%
Ninjask - 63.754% / 90.387%
Medicham - 14.228% / N/A
Volbeat - 87.479% / 67.382%
Shedinja - 20.872% / 10.382%
Flareon - 2.482% / N/A
Drifblim - 25.035% / 79.367%
Combusken - 55.457% / 92.228%
Mr. Mime - 4.641% / 7.743%
Musharna - 51.393% / 19.927%
Glaceon - 9.883% / N/A
Durant - N/A / 4.618%
Lopunny - 68.243% / 78.436%
Leavanny - 14.891% / 24.031%
Mawile - 8.719% / N/A
Floatzel - 42.507% / 34.483%
Gorebyss - 27.398% / 10.020%
Solrock - 28.561% / N/A
Huntail - 6.404% / N/A
Lunatone - 97.240% / N/A


Obviously the suspect ladder's stats are weighed more heavily due to being around the majority of last month compared to the regular UU one...and thus most moves' percentages are going to be higher. But an interesting trend to note is that in an environment free of Hydreigon, Celebi and Sylveon (and Volbeat I guess, it's a mon whose niche practically revolves around Baton Pass + Tail Glow) ran the move less on the general portion of the ladder. I also want to say, of the Pokemon listed above, how many of them are actually ranked on the Viability Thread? Since those are the main ones anyone'd care about, that narrows it down to Sylveon, Celebi, Espeon, Vaporeon, Umbreon, Gligar, Togetic, Shedinja, and Durant...and at least half of this list is using Baton Pass either for momentum or Wish passing as opposed to passing boosts (Sylveon, Vaporeon, Umbreon (stats show Baton Pass is used more than Curse so the stats don't fully coincide with just using Curse to pass), Durant).

On one hand, Baton Pass as many in this thread have stated, is an unhealthy move period, due to its nature of forcing teams to win or lose outright strictly based off of matchups as opposed to skill. That things like Hoopa and Nidoqueen with a simple few Speed boosts can pretty much shred the tier with little difficulty, even in spite of the number of nerfs imposed to keep Baton Pass in check. And the fact Baton Pass keeps coming up as an issue despite the number of restrictions we've imposed on it might actually speak for itself, as Mazz said. On the other hand, one could argue that Baton Pass's issue never really came to light in UU until Celebi happened. That same argument, coinciding with those numbers I dug up, could be further pressed by asking, "If Baton Pass is so broken and deadly in UU, why are Pokemon whose entire niche is based around the move, such as Volbeat, Combusken and Ninjask, not even ranked in the VR thread? Can I slap a Combusken on an offensive team and achieve similar results as Hogg?" "And if passing boosts with Baton Pass is really the issue, why are most Pokemon deemed viable in UU that frequently run/have access to Baton Pass using it for momentum, which many agree isn't a 'broken' use of the move?" it really points to just a small pool of Pokemon enabling Baton Pass to be broken in such a way that it's even being examined the way it is now.

TL;DR: I guess the real question I would ask myself is, "Is Baton Pass a broken move? Or are the Pokemon using it broken?" Once again though, I don't care for the outcome either way unless something ends up being suspected, but maybe this gets people thinking? Idk. Feel free to combat, critique, praise, or disagree with my thoughts.

If we end up scalping Baton Pass, can we get a public Scolipede test tho? jk jk I know that'll never happen before Gen 7
 
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With that said, I fail to see a reason to not ban Baton Pass as a whole. What was even the reasoning for it last time? ORAS OU does have some Pokemon that use Baton Pass without passing any boosts and some that pass non-Speed boosts. Even so, why should they be protected over the sake of banning something that may be overpowered and / or uncompetitive?

I want to reiterate this; we did not and will not unban Blaze Blaziken or Torrent Greninja; what differentiates Blaze Blaziken / Torrent Greninja and Speed Boost Blaziken / Protean Greninja from non-Speed passing Baton Passers and Speed passing Baton Passers? Only the fact that it's a move compared to a Pokemon.

Greninja and Blaziken, both Pokemon deemed overpowered in OU, were banned. If we were to remove Greninja's ability to use Protean or Blaziken's ability to use Speed Boost, would they be banworthy? No.

Say Baton Pass is still overpowered or uncompetitive; Baton Passing boosts would be deemed banworthy, but not Baton Pass without any boosts. Why should it be different here?

I don't care to go super in depth into complex bans, but the reason we don't delve into unbanning Blaze Blaziken and the such is because we don't tier things to make everything viable in OU nor should we care about preserving Pokemon for the sake of it. If we ban abilities off of specific Pokemon, why not ban moves off of specific Pokemon? Banning King's Shield off of Aegislash is the most recent OU suggestion in this regard and it was brought up multiple times during the Aegislash retest. It, however, has no logic backing it up; if we're banning specific parts of a Pokemon to make it not-overpowered in a specific tier, there would be no reason to ban Pokemon at all, only the broken aspects. In this case Ubers wouldn't exist and every Pokemon deemed "too good" would simply be nerfed to preserve its place in OU.
TDK's post on this matter was a good one. There is no self-consistent reason to not outright ban Baton Pass. Yes, passing with no boosts isn't broken, however things like Defensive Mence weren't broken either, and I dont think that the fact that BP is a move should mean that we bend over backwards in order to accommodate it. It's already had to be nerfed because unrestricted it is broken as fuck, despite no logical reason to make an exception to our tiering for this one move, and it's still being talked about as being broken, with the ChickenPass using 2 mons that are almost never seen in UU and being reportedly a really good, easy way to win.

We should not do another Complex Ban in reducing BP by not allowing it to pass moves. First of all, that's completely separating the move from it's intended mechanic (the move was never designed for use to escape pursuit or gain momentum, it was expressly to pass boosts,) and secondly it's nerfing to the point of rediculousness, which is not something that we should set a precedent for. The only example of this is the Leppa Berry, which everyone but Zarel just wanted banned, and then we let him do his stuff because it was completely meaningless to the metagame, he was the only one inconvenienced by it and it turned out that banning the Leppa Berry didn't solve the problem.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
can ou just ban baton pass instead xd

banning baton pass is the way to go, it's about time tiers see this disgusting mistake
  • Baton Pass Clause: Players cannot have more than one Pokémon with the move Baton Pass. Furthermore, a Pokémon cannot have Baton Pass while also having a move or ability that boosts Speed and a move or ability that boosts another stat.
and finally revert it and go with the most sensible route and just weed out the core problem

#POdoesitbetter
 

Hogg

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Alright, since I've been pushing for a BP ban for quite some time now, I figure it's worth sharing my thoughts on this.

I very much believe that Baton Pass is a fundamentally broken move. Its very design is based around the concept of giving stat boosts to things that don't ordinarily get them, either because they can't afford to set up or because they just straight up don't have access to them. The thing is, there are lots of Pokemon that are ultimately balanced by their inability to boost their stats. Something like Nidoqueen, for example, can be utterly punishing to teams that lack one of the few reasonable switch-ins to it (Blissey, Cresselia, Bronzong), but it is balanced by its mediocre Speed, which allows teams to play around it without carrying one of its hard counters (all of which are very passive). Give it Rock Polish, and suddenly it's a monster that can cut through many common teams like butter. On the other side of the coin, something like Sharpedo can easily clean up against weakened teams, but requires a significant amount of support to consistently break through anything moderately bulky. Give it Swords Dance (as well as the ability to actually reliably get a Swords Dance off), and suddenly this is no longer true.

So yeah, there are definitely non-broken uses of Baton Pass (dry-passing and Wish-passing), but in the end, it's built around what is basically a broken concept. Now, it can be argued that this is in itself balanced by the fact that you have to dedicate multiple Pokemon to accomplish a single goal - basically, you're resigning yourself to starting out the game at 5-6 in exchange for the ability to get some of your Pokemon to do something that GameFreak never intended. I get this, and in theory it might be true. In practice, however, it doesn't really shake out that way (at least in UU). See, that would only be true if the Pokemon in question was ONLY useful for passing to the intended recipient (either because it serves a useful role on the team outside of its ability to pass boosts, or because the boosts it passes are flexible enough that they can be passed to a variety of Pokemon in a variety of situations). The argument also falls apart even in cases where this is true if the boosts it passes are SO significant that the recipient manages to sweep a significant number of teams (as we saw with things like GeoPass and SmashPass, and as is true to some degree with things like CeleShark).

Anyhow, Baton Pass has a long, LONG history of being problematic, and in XY and ORAS in particular, we saw these so-called gimmicky teams actually being used in tours like WCOP and stour, which made people realize that it's not just a gimmick but something that actually wins games. And basically every time we've attempted to address the issue, we have jumped through increasingly more complex hoops in order to keep the move around, for fear of potentially banning something that has SOME non-broken uses. Seriously, this gen alone, we've gone through three increasingly arduous BP clauses, banned individual moves and Pokemon, etc. It's only semi-relevant, so I'm putting it in hide tags, but Baton Pass is just the monster that never dies:

  • Full Baton Pass chains were considered uncompetitive/broken, but there wasn't overwhelming consensus that BP was inherently broken, so Baton Pass clause was implemented, restricting teams to three Baton Pass users.
  • "Full" BP teams involving just three users were developed, and were so consistently successful that they were being used in major tours. However, there wasn't overwhelming consensus that strategies such as QuickPass were themselves inherently broken, not to mention things like drypassing, etc. So, BP clause Mk2 was implemented, restricting teams to one Baton Pass user.
  • Teams built around Geomancy passing from Smeargle were developed, eventually being used with decent winrates in tours such as WCOP, as well as taking over the ladder. Down on the UU side of things, there were also issues such as QuiverPass from Venomoth, etc.
  • Since it might not be BP as a whole that was the problem, Venomoth was banned in UU due to its ability to pass Quiver Dances.
  • Since it might not be BP as a whole that was the problem, Geomancy was banned in UU.
  • When Smeargle began to adjust and use things like Quiver Dance instead of Geomancy, Smeargle was banned in UU.
  • Strategies around SmashPass via Gorebyss began to grow in use (though they never took off in UU, I personally did a fair bit of testing with Gorebyss SmashPass teams, and can confirm that they were broke af, and they were definitely big problems in lower tiers).
  • As Baton Pass still was regularly causing problems, BP clause Mk3 was implemented, restricting teams to one Baton Pass user AND prohibiting teams from passing Speed and another stat simultaneously.
  • As these strategies, made popular in XY/ORAS, began to see use in other older gens, BP clause Mk3 was applied retroactively to BW and DPP.
  • Similar retroactive nerfs have been applied to other gens, such as making Ingrain illegal on Smeargle in Adv, though things like BellyPass in Adv OU still prove to be valid strategies.
  • Baton Pass continued to cause problems in some other tiers, including Speed passing to Xatu in NU, and CelePass in UU.


Anyhow, back to UU, since that's what is relevant. Right now, I think that there are two big issues. The first, and biggest, is Celebi. I've posted a bit about this in my recent RMT, but I think that Celebi with BP is actually too much for UU. While the metagame has adjusted to the point where NP + 3 attacks doesn't just straight up sweep teams the way it did during late UUPL/early UU Open, CelePass manages to beat almost every consistent counter to Celebi, while also making traditional Celebi checks far less reliable. It's especially potent because Celebi remains a fantastic 'mon in addition to running BP, so it's not like you're running 5-on-6 in order to give your Shark a boost or whatever. And when you consider that passing a +4 boost is not out of the question (either because of something like SD/NP + Weakness Policy or with a set like bulky SubNP), the things Celebi passes to become really overwhelming for most teams to deal with.

Is Celebi inherently broken without BP? I don't know, but I'm inclined to say no. Taking BP out of the equation, I think Celebi is still probably an S-rank 'mon, but I don't think it's actually banworthy. Frankly, I'd like to find out, and if Celebi was still overwhelming after a BP ban I'd absolutely support suspecting it. That said, if it was a question of banning Baton Pass to "preserve" Celebi, I would absolutely be opposed to it.

So that brings us to our next issue, which is speed passing. The pinnacle of this is ChickenPass. I think ChickenPass is an actively negative presence in the tier. That does NOT mean that it is this broken strategy that auto-wins games (although sometimes it does). In fact, it reminds me a lot of Rain HO - a bit gimmicky, not always the most consistent playstyle, but there are definitely matchups that it more or less wins on Team Preview with very little available counterplay on the part of the opponent. ChickenPass plays like this, only with way more good matchups than Rain could ever dream of. Again, there are a lot of Pokemon, such as Nidoqueen, that are balanced by their lack of Speed and inability to boost it outside of a Choice Scarf. By building a fairly standard offense team with threats like this alongside Combusken and maybe a stallbreaker or two (Espeon/Xatu are common choices, but they're not the only ones), you can run a ChickenPass team that can play around a lot of threats, but also just straight up wins in some matchups.

Here's a replay from the finals of a roomtour I won with ChickenPass earlier today: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-471034012. nv had a very solid bulky offense team with no direct switchins to Nidoqueen, but a lot of possible counterplay (5/6 'mons outsped it and had ways to hit it hard or outright KO it). It didn't matter. He ended up in a bad matchup that he pretty much could do nothing to play his way out of. Again, this isn't some rarely used team archetype it's beating - I'm talking about a fairly standard BO team of Celebi/Krook/Sylv/MAero/Tenta/Helio just losing on Preview.

So is Combusken the next S-rank 'mon? No, of course not. There are a lot of solid counters to speedpassing that mean that even at its best, it will always be less reliable than just bringing a really solid balance team most of the time. But I do think it's incredibly unhealthy for the meta. It doesn't take a lot of skill to load up a ChickenPass team and cheese your way into a win over a much better player, and that's a scenario that can come up more often than you'd think. That's true to some degree with other Pokemon and playstyles as well, but I feel like it is particularly pronounced in this case.

So yeah, I think that CelePass is a HUGE problem in the tier right now, but I also think that even on its own Baton Pass is problematic too. We could ban Celebi and Combusken, but I feel like that's barely addressing the problem, and we'll be in the same place down the road. Frankly, I think that Baton Pass has to go.

(That said, I'm still undecided on whether to go for a straight ban on the move, or ban BP + boosts. I am inclined toward the former, as I'm not a fan of complex bans at all, but there are certainly arguments to be made for retaining the non-broken aspects of BP such as drypassing and WishPassing.)
 
Now is the time that i post my thoughts in Baton Pass
1-Passing stats makes baton pass broken,but when not passing stat,baton pass is NOT broken
I began playing competitive pokemon in gen 3,back than,baton pass was a PAIN to deal,having smeargle to pass ingrain was the biggest problem,so it was banned,but the baton pass teams continued,time passed,and teams were resticted to 1 baton passer,and they couldn't pass speed+another stat.That ruined Baton Pass,so people began using baton pass to get momentum and scape fron Pursuit
2-Baton Pass today
Now,the best baton passer is Celebi,having the ability to pass SD or NP to the likes of Entei and Sceptile Mega is OP,and you will have to sack off 1 or 2 pokemon to kill the boosted mons,and even after THAT,celebi can come back,set up and baton pass AGAIN,it's just broken
3-Conclusion
There 2 solucions to baton pass:or celebi gets BANNED or baton pass+stats is BANNED,because baton pass can cause so much trouble,so we ban its main user or we ban baton pass+Stats
 

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As satisfying as I know a cold turkey Baton Pass ban would be, I don't think I'm 100% sold on that being the solution. I think a lot of the frustration with the alternatives comes from our consistent failure to properly nerf BP to non-toxic levels, as evidenced by the fact that strategies involving the move have consistently and persistently raised their ugly head, each as obnoxious and cheap as the last. And while there's no doubt in my mind that banning BP outright would shut down these strategies for good and make for a much healthier environment, I have yet to see a satisfying explanation for how this wouldn't have the same effect as Option B -- no boosts, no Berries, nada -- while simultaneously preserving the healthy aspects of the move we've so desperately tried to single out. Since we've already gone down the complex ban rabbit hole and set a precedent for nerfing this stupid, stupid move, so as to not throw out the baby with the bath water, I don't see how only allowing Dry / Wish passing wouldn't fix this problem without a hitch. And while it is true that we wouldn't ban, say, King's Shield, so as to preserve Aegislash, since that is both needlessly complex and defeats the purpose of tiering, Baton Pass is a move, not a Pokémon. It's not like any other move, either, in that it can be used in both broken and non-broken ways, and no other move can be divorced from its own broken aspects the way that Baton Pass has. This is the reason we've given BP a different treatment from any other inherently busted move; Swagger and Double Team / Minimize have no competitively redeeming qualities, while BP does. No other move, depending on how it is used, can either give you some neat momentum with the right prediction, which is healthy and fun, or the equivalent of a Swords Dance Sharpedo you downloaded off Pokégen, which isn't, and I think it would be shortsighted to not finish what we've started by getting rid of the latter once and for all.
 
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I'm starting to see all the points about how Baton Pass is getting away with nerfs no Pokemon ever did to keep it around. While it as a mokentum tool is useful, I think it's time to move back to banning more liberally. As has been stated, BP Clause has gone through 3 iterations and it's still proving problematic. Yes, some of the Eeveelutionsare going to suffer for it, but the move as a whole is clearly out of hand, so unless we want to move to Pet Mod territory or until GameFreak nerfs Baton Pass it needs to go.
 

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The only pokemon in UU that don't use Baton Pass for purely stat boosting purposes are drypass Celebi(which i've only included because in the event of a boosts+bpass ban might see a shred of use), specs Sylveon, (puke) umbreon, (puke) vaporeon. Durant could use it to drypass on CB but rly what I'm trying to say here is that is it worth jumping through hoops to preserve these? Half of these mons don't even use the move and the other half would suffice perfectly fine without it. I don't have a whole load to say about Baton Pass in general, Hogg's thoughts articulated mine in a way I never could but I just wanted to make a point in that if you do think pass is broken in a stat boosting concept, what is the point of preserving incredibly niche sets on pokemon by making a complex ban? Make the banlist simpler and remove something that's been debated over for far too long.
 
The only pokemon in UU that don't use Baton Pass for purely stat boosting purposes are drypass Celebi(which i've only included because in the event of a boosts+bpass ban might see a shred of use), specs Sylveon, (puke) umbreon, (puke) vaporeon. Durant could use it to drypass on CB but rly what I'm trying to say here is that is it worth jumping through hoops to preserve these? Half of these mons don't even use the move and the other half would suffice perfectly fine without it. I don't have a whole load to say about Baton Pass in general, Hogg's thoughts articulated mine in a way I never could but I just wanted to make a point in that if you do think pass is broken in a stat boosting concept, what is the point of preserving incredibly niche sets on pokemon by making a complex ban? Make the banlist simpler and remove something that's been debated over for far too long.
For real you are willing to ban baton pass and dont cara about vap/umbreon/espeon they just become different pokemons without that move. Just ban the interaction of baton pass with stat boosting, and nail the celebi in the head.
 
Maintaining the specific niches of three generally inferior Eeveelutions is much less important, letalone significant in the slightest, than removing an aspect of the metagame that's been well known to be broken. The 'sanctity' of Vaporeon, Espeon, and Umbreon is a poor justification as to why Baton Pass should not be banned.

It's easy logic really: read through Hogg's post, specifically the bit where he outlines the history of Baton Pass nerfs, and try to reason why we're still having issues with Baton Pass. The move itself is inherently broken: the sheer number of nerfs that we've made to it haven't been enough. At what point do you draw the line?
 
I might be missing something here but just for the sake of argument let's pretend that Dragon Dance made Gyarados broken just like it did with Mence, would we ban the move even though it's not broken on mons like Haxorus and Gator or we would we just ban the two broken mons? 'cause I feel like we would just have banned Mence and Gyara if that was the case.
Why is this case different? Why ban the move Baton Pass instead of just banning Celebi and Combusken (if it was really broken) when the move is not broken on mons like the Eevolutions, Mienshao and MAbsol?
 
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Because it's actually vice versa, and banning a Pokémon that actually has an important role in metagame, over a move that is totally retarded, pointless and uncompetitive wouldn't make much sense. And Baton Pass isn't actually a problem on Celebi only, as Gligar, Sylveon, Espeon etc also perform the role of a decent Baton Passer and we would have people argue why they aren't banned aswell heh.
 
Because it's actually vice versa, and banning a Pokémon that actually has an important role in metagame, over a move that is totally retarded, pointless and uncompetitive wouldn't make much sense. And Baton Pass isn't actually a problem on Celebi only, as Gligar, Sylveon, Espeon etc also perform the role of a decent Baton Passer and we would have people argue why they aren't banned aswell heh.
But that is exactly like if you just banned Dragon Dance just so you can keep FatMence because it has an 'important role in the metagame' even though that there is no proof that it is broken on other mons like Haxorus and shit.

Baton Pass so far is only broken on Celebi and (maybe) Combusken, you can't just ban it just to nerf a certain mon by removing its best set just so that it can stay in the metagame and we've seen this already in PU where people wanted to ban DPunch so that they can preserve Machoke.

Also if you did this then what is stopping us from banning Hurricane or Quiver Dance just so we could keep MPidgeot and Volcarona even though those moves aren't broken on Venomoth and Tornadus?
 
But that is exactly like if you just banned Dragon Dance just so you can keep FatMence because it has an 'important role in the metagame' even though that there is no proof that it is broken on other mons like Haxorus and shit.

Baton Pass so far is only broken on Celebi and (maybe) Combusken, you can't just ban it just to nerf a certain mon by removing its best set just so that it can stay in the metagame and we've seen this already in PU where people wanted to ban DPunch so that they can preserve Machoke.

Also if you did this then what is stopping us from banning Hurricane or Quiver Dance just so we could keep MPidgeot and Volcarona even though those moves aren't broken on Venomoth and Tornadus?
The point is that Dragon Dance is not broken since there are a lot of ways to play around it, but Baton Pass IS broken since there's no counterplay for it... Also lol, Baton Pass had a lot of nerfs in all the tiers because it is definitely a broken move, and this is why Baton Pass is completely different when compared with Dragon Dance. Stop comparing Salamence with Baton Pass and Celebi, this argument is completely wrong...

Edit: Salamence wasn't broken only because the DD set was a thing too, since it has a Mixed Attacker set that was almost impossible to switch-in.
 
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The point is that Dragon Dance is not broken since there are a lot of ways to play around it, but Baton Pass IS broken since there's no counterplay for it...
But Baton Pass on Mienshao and MAbsol isn't broken and has counterplays to it, the only mon (or two) that make it a problem are Celebi and possibly Combusken.
Let's PRETEND for a minute that there was no DrySkin mons or good Grass or Electric types in this meta, so we find ourselves having no counterplay to CroCune, would we in that situation deem Suicune to be a broken mon and ban it like we normally do or would we ban the move Rest just cause we want to keep CM+ 3 Attacks Cune 'cause it's an "important mon" and just screw over Snorlax and MAggron cause we want to keep Suicune and we deem other Rest users that are not broken at all (as they have counterplays to their Rest sets) as 'less important' ?
 
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Why are you theorymonning over non-existent problem and don't face the realistic issue that is Baton Pass? Stating things as they could possibly be is just a shitty comparison to something that actually CURRENTLY exists and is a real problem so I don't get what you're implying.

Banning move on certain Pokémon would just not be right since it would be a complex ban which is by no means supported and would end up in various problems. I don't fucking care what happens in PU or outside of UU if it's not affecting us so what is your point.

+ it was already 100% times said that complex bans are just dumb and speaking about Baton Pass which was like nerfed around 10 000 times its just about time to get rid of it as it proved that it's still broken even after said nerfs.
 
DaKakz, dont forget that the Baton Pass currently in the tier isn't anything like unrestricted baton pass. It's nerfed to ridiculousness at this point, and the fact that it is still a central part of broken areas just shows that it's not been enough. The main difference between BP and Dragon Dance is that BP has been way too much in so many cases, and even after the numerous restrictions placed on it, it's still too much, and people are not willing to act illogically any more by trying to preserve the shattered remnants of a broken thing that remains broken, despite it going against all of our other tiering decisions, to preserve remnants that aren't even close to what the move is intended for in the first place.
 
Why are you theorymonning over non-existent problem and don't face the realistic issue that is Baton Pass? Stating things as they could possibly be is just a shitty comparison to something that actually CURRENTLY exists and is a real problem so I don't get what you're implying.

Banning move on certain Pokémon would just not be right since it would be a complex ban which is by no means supported and would end up in various problems. I don't fucking care what happens in PU or outside of UU if it's not affecting us so what is your point.
I'm obviously theorymoning over a non-existent problem to help people see the picture that I'm trying to draw, rules must be consistent and banning Baton Pass to save Celebi is IMO the same as banning Quiver Dance or Hurricane just so we could play with MPidgeot or Volcarona.

And I never argued for or talked about banning a move just on certain Pokemon, in my example I argued that if we banned an ENTIRE move from the metagame just so a top tier/broken mon could stay and we could play with its other non-broken sets that would screw over other mons that use that move in a non-broken way.

And I also talked about PU to help people understand my argument, we should not ban an entire move that is not broken on mons (that I guess we deem unimportant) just 'cause it's used in an unhealthy way by a top tier mon. IDK how we're dancing around this when it's clear that there are a ton of BP users that are not broken, yet we want to ban the entire move just so we could save ONE mon that we deem "important" instead of banning the only mon that this move is broken on.
 

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I'm obviously theorymoning over a non-existent problem to help people see the picture that I'm trying to draw, rules must be consistent and banning Baton Pass to save Celebi is IMO the same as banning Quiver Dance or Hurricane just so we could play with MPidgeot or Volcarona.

And I never argued for or talked about banning a move just on certain Pokemon, in my example I argued that if we banned an ENTIRE move from the metagame just so a top tier/broken mon could stay and we could play with its other non-broken sets that would screw over other mons that use that move in a non-broken way.

And I also talked about PU to help people understand my argument, we should not ban an entire move that is not broken on mons (that I guess we deem unimportant) just 'cause it's used in an unhealthy way by a top tier mon. IDK how we're dancing around this when it's clear that there are a ton of BP users that are not broken, yet we want to ban the entire move just so we could save ONE mon that we deem "important" instead of banning the only mon that this move is broken on.
However, we aren't even considering banning Baton Pass to protect Celebi. While Celebi may be the main perpetrator of the move currently, the move itself has broken aspects that are being taken into account which apply to Pokemon outside of Celebi as others before have mentioned previously. While the move may not be broken on certain Pokemon (i.e Pokemon without any form of setup which is limited), it is definitely deemed to be broken on most of the viable Pokemon that are allowed to use it to fulfill its original role of passing boosts.

If we're on the subject of preservation and saving something, then I believe globally a lot of people have already tried to preserve Baton Pass countless times with the amount of unnecessary complications regarding its use as is. This fact has also been pointed out beforehand by other players. While personally I'm mostly impartial to this suspect (as much as possible) and don't really have a say in its decision regardless, I believe posting thoughts is a good thing and it's nice to see people against and for said banning but I believe we should be clearing misconceptions about the suspect like its main cause is to save Celebi. Celebi might have brought it into the spotlight but it's saving the Pokemon is definitely not the reason the move is suspected.
 
I'm obviously theorymoning over a non-existent problem to help people see the picture that I'm trying to draw, rules must be consistent and banning Baton Pass to save Celebi is IMO the same as banning Quiver Dance or Hurricane just so we could play with MPidgeot or Volcarona.

And I never argued for or talked about banning a move just on certain Pokemon, in my example I argued that if we banned an ENTIRE move from the metagame just so a top tier/broken mon could stay and we could play with its other non-broken sets that would screw over other mons that use that move in a non-broken way.

And I also talked about PU to help people understand my argument, we should not ban an entire move that is not broken on mons (that I guess we deem unimportant) just 'cause it's used in an unhealthy way by a top tier mon. IDK how we're dancing around this when it's clear that there are a ton of BP users that are not broken, yet we want to ban the entire move just so we could save ONE mon that we deem "important" instead of banning the only mon that this move is broken on.
MPidge wasn't banned because of Hurricane. It was banned because the Work Up set had few counters, and those could be broken by confusion luck.

Also your arguments suck. You're trying to justify your points by using examples of a single mon being overwhelming due to a move, while Baton Pass is much more than that. A single mon being too good because of a singular thing would be banned 100% of the time over the thing that makes it too good(barring mega stones). This goes beyond a single pokemon, regardless of what you want to think.

And ban Work Up. Free MPidge.
 
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