np: ORAS UU Stage 8 - I Got the Keys [Klefki is unbanned, see post 25]

[dodmen]

With Klefki falling from OU with the most recent tier shift, we have decided to drop Klefki to UU for the first time in almost two years. After a week or so of Klefki in the tier, we will be performing a council vote to decide whether Klefki should remain BL or permanently fall to UU.

Klefki was banned both in XY UU and the preliminary stages of ORAS UU due to its unparalleled utility options and the ease with which it could support its team. With one of the best typings of the game, it could first and foremost easily lay down Spikes to support the offensive teams it was found on. However, it had a myriad other options to run, each of which could put an unexpecting or unprepared opponent heavily on the backfoot. In particular, Dual Screens was what sent Klefki over the edge, as the easy turns of setup it provides to threats like Cloyster, Lucario, Slurpuff, and Haxorus was considered too much to handle. Rain Dance Klefki could set rain multiple times a game thanks to its stellar typing and could give threats like Kingdra and Omastar enough turns of rain to plow through anything lacking a Blissey (and also synergizes exceptionally well with Mega Swampert). On top of all this, Klefki's Spikes and paralysis support provided even more opportunities for breakers and sweepers to plow through teams. Additionally, it was argued that Prankster TWave discouraged thoughtful/skillful play, or "is a gay strategy that promotes careless playing zzz", in the words of one wise ex-tier leader. In the end, Klefki was banned because it never failed to do its job in supporting brainless HO, especially since it has the ability to come in and set up at least two times per game.

On the other hand, several of the scarier setup sweepers have now been banned or risen to OU of their own accord (Salamence, Zygarde, Volcarona, for example). More importantly, Klefki may provide the metagame with a healthy check to several dangerous offensive threats in the metagame, including Hydreigon, Celebi, Sylveon, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Sceptile. Furthermore, while the hazard removers that fared the best against Klefki in the past are long gone (Zapdos and Starmie), we still have Tentacruel, Forretress, Donphan, and Empoleon to keep Klefki's Spikes off the field. Nonetheless, we will have to see if these factors balance out the insane amount of support that Klefki can bring to offensive teams.

While this is a council vote only, please feel free to share your thoughts, sample teams with Klefki, replays once the ladder is up, etc.

As a reminder, Baton Pass is also banned.

Tagging The Immortal again - BP is banned and Klefki is UU, no suspect ladder required. Thanks :D

 

[MANNAT]

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD OR 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Dazzling Gleam/Toxic/Magnet Rise/Fairy Lock/Foul Play/Heal Block

I feel like Klefki will be a very useful Pokemon for offensive teams to utilize in this new metagame. It will help ease some of the pressure that Mega Aero constantly asserts vs offensive builds, and it will be able to stack up spikes to wear away at defensive teams. Additionally, Klefki can choose to run a physically defensive set to take on threats like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, etc. but a specially defensive set is still preferred for crap like Hydreigon, Celebi, Sylveon, etc. I personally like dual STABs since it can nail both Hydreigon and Sylveon for super effective damage, but if you are fine with chipping away at Hydra as opposed to KOing it all at once, then you can run a utility move in the last slot. Klefki has an array of different options to utilize, and if you have more than one Hydreigon check on your team, then feel free to use it. Not sure if the council's gonna vote to ban this thing since stuff like Krook and Pert are better than they were when it got banned (with mpert not even existing then lol), but it seems like it'll be a fun mon for offensive teams to use nevertheless.

 

[The Immortal]

Does the Baton Pass banned apply to lower tiers too? atomicllamas ryan galbia

 

[Disjunction]

Does the Baton Pass banned apply to lower tiers too? atomicllamas ryan galbia

NU banned Speed Pass and it doesn't affect PU. The ban transitivity doesn't apply anymore.

 

[atomicllamas]

Does the Baton Pass banned apply to lower tiers too? atomicllamas ryan galbia

RU should still inherit bp clause from OU (and PU from RU).

 

[kokoloko]

anyone else remember when tiering was meant to cater to dumb people who couldnt understand non-permeating clauses

yeah me neither

 

[obii]

i built some klefki teams. here they are:

Idea was just klefki+entei since klef baits in those forrys, empo, tenta to spin and entei can pressure and burn them. spikes also makes it easier for you to click espeed and win. the rest of the team just kinda clicked, taunt roost hydrei seemed amazing w spikes, scarf mowtom is another water resist+ speed control, blastoise is the spinner and pressures bulky offense, gligar sets rocks and brings in entei / toise safely. team is kinda weak to bu conk and cune so you can try celebi > mowtom and scarf hydrei

Hide

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic
- Dazzling Gleam

Entei @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
- Flare Blitz

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Aura Sphere
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt
- Roost

Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Leaf Storm
- Volt Switch
- Signal Beam

Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost

following the previous idea of spikes+wall breaker+momentum grabber to force switches in this case being sd gatr w bee+shao. yeah defog+spikes may be counter productive but gligar was the best fit for the team and it isnt that counter productive unless you absolutely need spikes to win, which on offense teams is rarely the case. spikes is more of an extra hazard to have if you wanna rack up damage. team doesnt like opposing forry that much

Hide

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Toxic

Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Crunch

Beedrill-Mega @ Beedrillite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- U-turn
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off

Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 SpD
Bold Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog

Celebi @ Meadow Plate
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Energy Ball
- Psychic

Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

the basic bulky offense. not much to explain here but dual waters ease the entei match up, aero + hydrei are glue / speed control and np celebi takes advantage of the spikes

Hide

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic
- Dazzling Gleam

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Acid Spray

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Aerial Ace
- Pursuit
- Roost

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Roar

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Flamethrower

i also built a rain team but its literally the bog standard uxie+abusers+klefki so i wont post it here.

some observations: klefki works best on offense / bulky offense teams as a hydreigon check, sylv check, spiker, and emergency twaver. im finding it very hard to fit on bulkier teams because, when it comes down to it, forry is the better choice due to its role compression (spinner+spiker). i've been messing around with klefki+jelli and klefki+chandy and having a tough time putting things together because you either stack weaknesses or need to forgo some important role which ruins the dynamic of your team. klefki also ruins the aesthetic of bulkier teams :(

as for the movesets, i dont think anything is really set in stone besides twave. you could even possibly forgo spikes if you dont want it on your team in favor of some other utility like dual status, metal sound, foul play, heal block, or even some switcheroo shenanigans. overall, i find klefki pretty effective because of its versatility, how easily it fits onto bulky offense, and its ability to check hydrei+sylv in 1 slot. i think the nidos will get better since they can switch int klefki pretty easily. i dont know if its overwhelming yet (only been down a couple hours).

ps: my klefki spread isnt really anything specific, its just what i use in ou so there is most likely a better one

 

[KW]

Klefki, ou's cutest little menace. I am surprised that instead of suspecting celebi, we are re-testing klefki. Wasn't the mess that UU became a result of letting to many slightly over powered threats in? Isn't the work UU's been doing over the last months of this generation aimed at cleaning the tier up? With days before a new generation, is it really a wise idea to think about introducing a big new threat that could wildly reshape the meta? Looking at klefki itself...

we still have Tentacruel, Forretress, Donphan, and Empoleon to keep Klefki's Spikes off the field.

UU is a tier with very limited hazard removal options at the moment, do we really want to introduce a highly effective spike stacker? Tentacruel seems fine in theory, though thunderwave cripples its ability to check other threats. There's also the matter of Jellicent, which spin blocks tentacruel 100%, and is effective against balance. Crobat? Do you really want to get t-waved and lose all efficacy? Empoleon looks by far to be the best check, but switching in to t-wave will always suck, and defiant tornadus can easily come in and sweep after the defog boost. Klefki, Jellicent, tornadus is not a bad core at all. Through sd luke onto that squad, and its looking really scary.

More importantly, Klefki may provide the metagame with a healthy check to several dangerous offensive threats in the metagame, including Hydreigon, Celebi, Sylveon, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Sceptile

Is it tiering policy to add new threats to check old ones?

It's also important to realize that klefki can run other totally viable sets, such as dual screens or whether support. Dual screens + t-wave in this tier are on par with baton pass in my opinion, in that certain teams have no counterplay, especially if they get unlucky with a full para. I am open to changing my mind if i find it underwhelming on the ladder, but for now I am firmly against it. HO doesn't really need any more tools to be viable in this tier, and klefki's really splashable on any offensive build. That's my two cents.

 

[Mazz]

I've got a ton of problems with your post and mindset.

Klefki, ou's cutest little menace. I am surprised that instead of suspecting celebi, we are re-testing klefki. Wasn't the mess that UU became a result of letting to many slightly over powered threats in? Isn't the work UU's been doing over the last months of this generation aimed at cleaning the tier up? With days before a new generation, is it really a wise idea to think about introducing a big new threat that could wildly reshape the meta? Looking at klefki itself...

Re-testing Klefki is due to it having recently dropped and the terms it was banned to BL on in XY. In order to stay UU in XY, Klefki needed a supermajority vote and missed out on it by a vote or two. It wasn't actually voted to be banned, but only failed to reach supermajority UU status (iirc it was 7/12 in favour of UU, and it needed 8/12 to stay). Regardless, we still have a solid 2-2.5 months of UU until SuMo UU Beta is even ready (I'm predicting March 2017). That's more than enough time for 3 or 4 tests if the TL's and/or Council think we need that many. If they take the council vote route for the rest of the generation, we have even more time. No rush.

UU is a tier with very limited hazard removal options at the moment, do we really want to introduce a highly effective spike stacker? Tentacruel seems fine in theory, though thunderwave cripples its ability to check other threats. There's also the matter of Jellicent, which spin blocks tentacruel 100%, and is effective against balance. Crobat? Do you really want to get t-waved and lose all efficacy? Empoleon looks by far to be the best check, but switching in to t-wave will always suck, and defiant tornadus can easily come in and sweep after the defog boost. Klefki, Jellicent, tornadus is not a bad core at all. Through sd luke onto that squad, and its looking really scary.

Quit acting like Sylveon won't still be on the majority of teams and will never have the opportunity to click Heal Bell. Thunder Wave isn't an end-all-be-all move (still really good though). There's plenty of Pokemon that can still beat Klefki and prevent / remove hazards: Tornadus and Whimsicott both get Taunt and still exist, Magic Bouncers gain some extra utility, and all of our current hazard removers 1v1 Klefki. It's not guaranteed 3 layers of Spikes every time it comes out, and it's still going to be heavily threatened by Nidoqueen, Krookodile, and Fire-types whenever they come in.

If anything, Klefki's going to be better for Dual Screens considering we lost Azelf and Prankster allows it to easily fill the role Azelf had.

Is it tiering policy to add new threats to check old ones?

It's also important to realize that klefki can run other totally viable sets, such as dual screens or whether support. Dual screens + t-wave in this tier are on par with baton pass in my opinion, in that certain teams have no counterplay, especially if they get unlucky with a full para. I am open to changing my mind if i find it underwhelming on the ladder, but for now I am firmly against it. HO doesn't really need any more tools to be viable in this tier, and klefki's really splashable on any offensive build. That's my two cents.

By definition, testing a drop is tiering policy. If you need me or any of the council members to clear that up for you any further, don't hesitate to ask. Klefki has the added bonus of checking some big-name threats in UU thanks to its typing. By extension, this means we got another viable Hydreigon check (read: be happy with Klefki and shut up). I have a feeling you're one of the players Omfuga refers to in the previous NP thread that would prefer Thunderus-T and/or Volcarona over Klefki, so I'll echo his statements here. Also, here's a list of teams that currently can't handle the plethora of Klefki's sets you've listed:

1. Bad teams

Both Reflect and Light Screen can be removed via Defog and have existed long before Klefki came to UU. The dual screens set also doesn't have a ton of room for Thunder Wave either: Fairy Lock is Klefki's only way of getting a set-up sweeper in safely, and running Thunder Wave alongside it makes you Taunt bait. Forego Fairy Lock, and you can no longer get your HO sweeper in safely and have put it on some form of a timer. Sableye / Tornadus / Whimsicott have had access to some combination of Rain Dance and Sunny Day for ages and you don't see weather teams plowing the current metagame because of the finite number of turns that weather is up for. The only way a team can be weak to Klefki is that it has:

• an inherent weakness to entry hazards when it shouldn't have one
• an inherent weakness to HO
• an inherent weakness to Sun / Rain teams

and all of these break down to outstanding flaws within the team itself. Klefki has lots of viable counterplay. The addition of Klefki, banning of Baton Pass, and the rise of Dugtrio to OU have UU in a healthier place than where it was a week ago. Let the TL's and council continue to do their work, and let's work with them to sort out ORAS UU in its final months instead of just shitting on them.

 

[KW]

Regardless, we still have a solid 2-2.5 months of UU until SuMo UU Beta is even ready (I'm predicting March 2017). That's more than enough time for 3 or 4 tests if the TL's and/or Council think we need that many

Then why do this as a council vote?

By definition, testing a drop is tiering policy. If you need me or any of the council members to clear that up for you any further, don't hesitate to ask

I would sincerely appreciate clarification. Isn't the purpose of testing a drop to see whether it's inherently broken or not? Given that the meta is fluid, should a pokemon's place in it be considered?

Quit acting like Sylveon won't still be on the majority of teams and will never have the opportunity to click Heal Bell

Sylveon is on around 25% of teams. Half of sylveon run heal bell. Also, any compotent HO will always punish sylveon tremendously for wasting a turn clicking heal bell, if it even gets the opportunity.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Since when did we go back to the Council system?

 

[newfren]

Since when did we go back to the Council system?

Since there's less than a week until SuMo and we need to get shit squared away.

 

[Killintime]

So I went ahead and gave klefki a shot and had some fun test games with some of my friends and decided to share my opinion of it as a mon. Now the biggest thing for me is the fact I have only played 5 games with the thing so I cant say with confidence how much of an impact it will have on the tier as a mon. That being said I still really wanted to voice my opinions regarding klefki as a mon.

The first thing that really hit me with klefki is how easy it is to slap on teams with the massive amount of role compression it offers as well as priority T-wave, which can to some extent be harder to deal with than a whimsicott in the back with encore or an inaccurate as shit stun spore. The ability to check mons like crobat, aero, sylveon, hydreigon, and other top tier mons with the use of moves like magnet rise I thought would be a great addition to the tier at first, but honestly in the games I played all I witnessed was the spamming of hazards and a game of simply waiting for the opposing hazard control to get paraed so that you can pressure your opponent for a large portion of the game. Honestly it was disgusting how mindless the games were with so many mons just offering klefki a switch in to drop spikes or status you find yourself trying your best to predict it coming in, but its just so hard to pressure it as a mon. It resists rocks, pursuit, and the mons that do hurt it are easily walled or at least dealt with. Just the basic core system of klefki+bulky mon of some sort+water allows you to throw up spikes 24/7 while crippling mons in the process.

A team I tried to make around this idea was pretty straight forward in the fact I wanted a spinblocker, klefki punish, fire resist, and honestly anything with decent coverage that was fast as hell to take full advantage of the hazard stacking:

bad team

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Magnet Rise
- Play Rough

Jellicent @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Def / 128 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Scald
- Taunt

Nidoqueen @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Thunder Punch

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast

Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Naive Nature
- Iron Tail
- Knock Off
- Fire Blast
- Sucker Punch

I felt like I could even attempt a dark spam of sorts as long as I ran klefki+anything that dealt with fightings+specs hp fire from a sylveon. I ran a spread on absol which makes it so you're still faster than heliolisk however dazzling gleam/playrough only have a 12.5% chance to KO you with time I would probably assume you would want to run dazzling gleam on klefki so you could just invest the 48 points into sp.def so you never actually get KOed by it unless you switch into a hazard. With that I was hoping I could overpower and take advantage of opposing klefki while keeping up offensive pressure with a specs dreigon (which holy crap does less than 25 at times to klefki with dark pulse).

So take my words lightly since I can't honestly say I have really taken to the meta until I have actually played it (especially since I have been dead for almost 3 weeks), but I dont really appreciate it as a mon right now with how it seems to synergize with what I think is annoying to deal with right now as it is.

 

[g]

Does the Baton Pass banned apply to lower tiers too? atomicllamas ryan galbia

Sort of late but posting regardless:
Baton Pass is currently not broken on any PU Pokemon so we would like to still inherit RU's Clause for now, however Combusken has just dropped into the tier and if it is a problem we will decide if it is worth banning as a Pokemon

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD OR 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Dazzling Gleam/Toxic/Magnet Rise/Fairy Lock/Foul Play/Heal Block

I feel like Klefki will be a very useful Pokemon for offensive teams to utilize in this new metagame. It will help ease some of the pressure that Mega Aero constantly asserts vs offensive builds, and it will be able to stack up spikes to wear away at defensive teams. Additionally, Klefki can choose to run a physically defensive set to take on threats like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, etc. but a specially defensive set is still preferred for crap like Hydreigon, Celebi, Sylveon, etc. I personally like dual STABs since it can nail both Hydreigon and Sylveon for super effective damage, but if you are fine with chipping away at Hydra as opposed to KOing it all at once, then you can run a utility move in the last slot. Klefki has an array of different options to utilize, and if you have more than one Hydreigon check on your team, then feel free to use it. Not sure if the council's gonna vote to ban this thing since stuff like Krook and Pert are better than they were when it got banned (with mpert not even existing then lol), but it seems like it'll be a fun mon for offensive teams to use nevertheless.

Honestly, I think Magnet Rise is too valuable to put into a slashed spot. being able to hard wall the likes of Nidos is too valuable(until they start running more fire coverage).

Personally I'd say something along the lines of:

Klefki @ Leftovers/Air Balloon
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave/Toxic
- Flash Cannon/Dazzling Gleam/Foul Play
- Magnet Rise
- Spikes/Heal Block

Only reason I list Heal block is in conjunction with Toxic for fat setup mons like Cress/Cune/Lax.
SpD over Def because most of the things you'd want to come in on are generally special - Nidos/Drei/MScept/MAboma/etc. - not to mention Magnet Rise negating one of the scariest physical moves vs. Klef. Aside from that your typing kicks in vs. mons like MAero and MBee.

 

[Metric]

Limitless was right.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

My favorite part about this whole thing is the song in the OP

I haven't had a chance to play around with Klefki yet so everything I'm saying is just speculation...On paper, Klefki is undeniably going to scream "BROKEN!" to a lot of people...Prankster Spikes + Thunder Wave, Dual Screens, and the coveted Steel/Fairy typing that lets it check several huge threats in the tier (Gyarados, Conkeldurr, Hydreigon, Sylveon, Mega Beedrill, Celebi to an extent, and the several Ground-types added to this list if you opt to run Magnet Rise), which lets Klefki function on pretty much every single playstyle because of its niche at Thunder Wave/screens/hazard support + checking the aforementioned Pokemon. Klefki's role compression is just way too valuable to pass up, and it makes it extremely easy to just stack Fire/Ground resists on a team to ensure Klefki does well.

Like I said, while all this makes Klefki seem broken on paper, Mazz's post has me realizing that Klefki is definitely still a highly flawed Pokemon, and there's a reason the majority of the Council didn't vote Ban on it last time (despite it still being banned anyway). The metagame may be able to adapt? Meta trends might include more Pokemon carrying Fire or Ground moves they wouldn't use as much otherwise, such as Earthquake on Mega Sceptile, Fire Blast on Life Orb Hydreigon or Nidoqueen, or even a sudden huge spike in Rotom-H's usage. But even then, the angle I wanna approach is: Is Klefki (un)healthy for the meta?

UU right now up until Klefki's re-introduction has been stale to a lot of people. The top-tier Pokemon have this weird "power balance" going on, that if one of them were removed, the rest of them would become highly unbalanced. For instance, if Sylveon were absent, Hydreigon and Conkeldurr just become way harder to deal with. If Celebi is removed, Suicune, Krookodile, and Conkeldurr have an easier time dominating. If you banned Suicune, Mega Aerodactyl, Entei, and a metric ton of Pokemon who hate Scald suddenly look a lot scarier now. But the point I'm getting at with this is Klefki, heedless of its own centralizing nature, makes it a lot easier to keep these Pokemon in check. Forcing things to forgo other, better coverage just for the sake of dealing with Klefki might in turn make the Pokemon itself easier to handle in most cases. It's similar to what Hydreigon's presence did to Celebi: Nasty Plot Celebi during the Hydreigon suspect test had little reason otherwise to run Dazzling Gleam without Hydreigon present, so it was easier to get away with coverage like Shadow Ball or Earth Power. Now that Hydreigon's back, Celebi has to choose between either running Dazzling Gleam and beating Hydreigon itself, or a better coverage move and relying on teammates to deal with Hydreigon.

TL;DR: This is all speculation, but even though Klefki has a lot going for it on paper, it might actually balance the tier out somehow.

 

[Vague]

Klefki's a pretty phenomenal addition to the tier. Another Fairy-type that fits on fast paced offense besides Whimsicott is a godsend and the raw utility it brings in a single mon is amazing. In a sense, it's sort of a combination of Whimsicott + Forretress with its access to Prankster TWave + Spikes. Really splashable but pretty passive asides from spamming Thunder Wave or Toxic. That being said, Klefki doesn't particularly seem broken or overbearing to face. It seems just like one of the common, but not prevalent mons' you'll see like Infernape, Heracross, Mienshao, etc. Also it's best not to try and use Klefki on bulkier teams. It's really hard to not clearly see that Forretress is always better.

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Magnet Rise / Heal Block
- Dazzling Gleam

This is the set I use. The spread hits a jump point in defense, which is great for coming in on things like Crobat and Mega Abomasnow much easier while the rest is placed in SpD to switch into the likes of special attackers. I agree with the notion that Magnet Rise is very valuable since being able to hard wall things like Mega Aero and choice locked Krookodile is satisfying especially when setting up spikes with ease or twaving their switch-in. Heal Block is great too though, especially on HO because it pressures bulky mons so much when you're negating their recovery and overloading them with passive damage.

sample team because everyone is doing it

Hazard Games

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Magnet Rise
- Dazzling Gleam

Krookodile @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Giga Drain
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 216 Atk / 40 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Wing Attack
- Earthquake
- Hone Claws

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 232 HP / 76 Def / 8 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin

Entei @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
- Flare Blitz

A little something that's one of my favorite teams now with the goal of breaking down opposing teams with Entei and Celebi for Mega Aerodactyl to clean up. The team started around a core of Mega Aerodactyl + Klefki + Entei since (Hone Claws) Mega Aero + Spikes is one of the oldest, yet effective combinations ever and Klefki makes the goal a bit more easier to reach with priority Spikes. Entei wears down Mega Aero's checks incredibly well with burns and it's raw power. Extreme Speed + Spikes is also very scary. NP Celebi takes full advantage of Spikes to smash through bulkier teams with much more ease. Shadow Ball is nice here to lure in Bronzong for Mega Aerodactyl while also hitting Psychic-types like Cresselia really hard. Krookodile sets Rocks and Knock Off Leftovers and other items so teams are worn down quicker from passive damage. Tentacruel clears away hazards on my side of the field and checks some annoying setup sweepers with Haze (yes, it's good). Toxic Spikes, while seeming a bit overkill, is kind of a backup plan in case Klefki can't setup Spikes (which doesn't happen often).

 

[dodmen]

FYI, ladder is now updated!

Additionally, Manipulative will be voting in place of IB this round. Since we were a bit delayed with the ladder, we probably won't be voting until next week. In the meantime, please continue the discussion on Klefki.

Anyone tried Fairy Lock yet?

 

[Hogg]

I haven't tried Fairy Lock again since the ladder updated, but for another tour in which Klefki was allowed, I built a few offense teams that centered around Fairy Lock. This was also a meta that allowed Salamence, so it's not strictly applicable, but this is probably the best of the teams I'd come up with using that:

Hide

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Iron Tail
- Defog

Venomoth @ Focus Sash
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Spikes
- Play Rough
- Fairy Lock

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Extreme Speed

Krookodile @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Taunt

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rain Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

Like I said, it was built for a very different meta, but it's an interesting launch point for anyone interested. In practice I found Fairy Lock rarely actually works, although when it does, it works really well - catching someone the turn before Klefki dies and guaranteeing an extra turn of setup is pretty brutal. But again, it almost never actually worked out, and most of the time I'd have preferred a more general move like Magnet Rise, Toxic or Heal Block.

I'll post some thoughts on Klefki in the metagame a bit later, but thought I'd toss that in re: Fairy Lock.

 

[Sun]

hello everyone, we are all seeing Klefki in tier as little more than a week now, and I want to to express a thought on the tier with the presence of this key, Klefki is a very good pokemon in underused tier, its ability to paralyze and set hazards benefits many wallbreakers that are lacking in speed and exploiting well the presence of hazards in the field to optimize their sweep/wallbreaking. In recent times we have seen many Krookodile, Entei and Celebi, which are some of the strongest Pokemon in this current state of the metagame due to their impressiveness on the differents playstyles, and their variability in their sets (concerning especially Celebi and Krookodile), these Pokémon aforementioned derived much advantage from Klefki, managing to be very dangerous exploiting the Spikes damage thus to allowing them to break rolls on certain pokemons that usually switch in, I also noticed how Volturn teams are very good right now, offensive pivots such as Infernape, mega Beedrill, scarf Hydreigon put a lot of offensive pressure and force the opponent switches due to hazards that allow them to keep more momentum as possible and revenge killers such as mega Sharpedo, mega Aero and mega Sceptile still have benefits from Klefki hazard and Thunder wave support for a potential clean in late game. Klefki has been shown to also have to give a very good defensive support to balance teams, it proves, in fact, a great dragon & fairy switch, manages to enter on Hydreigon w /out fire blast without too much trouble and kill him back with dazzing gleam, klefki + water + fairy is really amazing core balance in teams, water types as defensive mega Swampert, fairy pokemon as cleric Sylveon helps Klefki to manage fire types and Fire blast Hydreigon better, also klefki appreciates a lot the wish support to keep it running healthy during the game, to finish this post, I want to show a team built by me:

klefki Bulky offense

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Magnet Rise

Tornadus
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- U-turn
- Grass Knot

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rain Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam / Shadow ball
- Nasty Plot

Cobalion @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 240 HP / 244 Def / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Haze

The team is a bulky offense built around the concept to put Klefki in work in the metagame with a few "abusers" of hazard stack called Defiant Tornadus, which still threaten Grass types and fighting types, also it pressure very well defoggers like Empoleon and Mandibuzz boosting its Atk due to Defiant, i choose to put u-turn to gain momentum and take advantage from hazards and i put GK to lure Swamperts, the team was a bit weak to stall / bulky balance teams, thus i added Celebi, with nasty plot its a scary wallbreaker, and taking advantage of hazards, it can kill easily Entei with + 2 Psychic which is an amazing thing for me, d.gleam to help versus Hydreigon , but it can be replaced with shadow ball, to hit better Metagross, Cresselia, Reuniclus, others Celebi and Bronzong, then i added mega pert, which is a solid sweeper and a cool entei and aero check, i noticed the of lack stealth rock and a hazard remover in the team, and i was really weak to revenge killers like mega Sharpedo and mega beedrill, thus i added shuca Rocks Cobalion and T.spikes+ haze Tentacruel, these pokemons have a great sinergy in the team, coba can beat the aforementioned pokemons and it provides momentum with volt switch, at last Tenta provides a second fairy and fighting switch, hazard remover support, and t.spikes support, which is another key to win against fat teams if i pressure well the hazard removers, in the 4th slot, i choose Haze,it can be useful to cripple setuppers like suicune, and finally it can be another Entei countermeasure.

Hope you like my thought about Klefki and my team Peace.

 

[Godfather 4]

Well i wish i had more time to gather these replays, try other strategies like the one mentioned by Hogg, but either way, i'm dropping here some battles on the test ladder where i run klefki and not necessairly win them, just show some of its potential. I tried to align it with Houndoom, as flash fire helps out with the major klefki weakness.

replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-474686354> First trial with this team, swampert made it with some predictions, although it doesn’t show much of klefki and was somehow poorly played by both sides.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-474739950 > This replay doesn’t show much from klefki, but shows houndoom being effective against gardevoir, although it was somewhat not that much well played by oreos, but a great game nonetheless. Conkeldurr spamming toxic went somehow great.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-475926259 > spike stack + sucker punch finish nidoking off, which was essential for the rest of the game.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-475931515 > Sam I yam shows the power of twave spam, with celebi to scare ground types off while klefki inutilizes my crobat, losing the ability to defog. Although it shouldn’t have sacked bat that soon, I could have played pert there.

I'm not completely against klefki being on the tier, i'm concious that the council will understand whats better, but with sun & moon making its appearence already, i don't think we have many room for changing the current tier. I also think klefki might be a little too annoying to deal, since we have some absurdly strong yet not so fast attackers on the tier like crawdaunt, and even hydreigon.

 

[Nightingales]

Right, well. I know my input might not be super-valued around here but I do have something to say about Klefki.

This thing is not going to be too healthy in uu's metagame, if it stays. It might be weak yeah, but that typing means that one of Fairy's most common weaknesses is completely mitigated. On top of that, Fairy helps Steel by patching up it's weakness to fighting attacks, meaning that it can come in on things that other Fairies couldn't and things that other Steels couldn't. So having an already-impressive list of immunities and resistances, the thing has some impressive defensive abilities. Then we have to consider Prankster Thunder Wave, which can almost singlehandedly neuter offense. Only Ground-Types and Electric-Types are immune, and it has Prankster Magnet Rise to mitigate that. So now we have a steel type who is immune to ground moves, that sets hazards and can screw over offense in single turns unless they're packing a lum berry and manage to get behind a sub.

So yeah, it might not be explicitly broken, but I can see it being incredibly unhealthy in it's current state.

 

[Meru]

Keys is an interesting addition to the metagame that is healthy in some ways. Its typing enables a wide variety of bulkier offensive archetypes using more mons in the ~50-95 range that were previously held back by Hydreigon's wallbreaking power and its typing also shifts the focus of the tier away from the three fast megas of the tier which are also kinda restrictive themselves. It's also a good check to Conkeldurr and Specs Sylveon without having to make resort to niche mons or fit into very restrictive team dynamics. I think its typing is definitely the healthiest part of its contribution to the metagame.

As far as status goes, aside from pointing out obvious 4MSS issues it faces, it also finding itself in a tier littered with offensive mons that are pretty accustomed to status being thrown around. Abilities like Natural Cure, Guts, Magic Bounce, other Prankster users (kinda) and Lightningrod for weakened Klefki as well as Rest users and clerics. We have a wide variety of Electric- and Ground-type mons that not only enable offense to keep up momentum but they also appreciate a metagame that has another strong Hydreigon check since Hydra resists those two STABs. I think offense has enough tools to fend off priority Thunder Waves since the tier has the depth to support it.

And finally, the hazard stacking of keys. I think this is the most broken aspect of Klefki and what might push it over the edge. While the tier has the hazard control to not make it as obnoxiously broken as something like Deoxys-D was in OU, I think that the offensive mons that Klefki enables are very capable of taking advantage of the two most problematic Defog/Spin users in Emp and Forry. The threat of Prankster Spikes will pose a huge strain on most balance builds as some of the most prominent mons on those teams are grounded (Steels, Fairies, Waters, Grounds). I think the combination of Spikes and checking the three fast megas will also provides momentum for more hyper offensive to use a larger variety of set-up speed boost/priority mons that won't be held back by easy revenge kills from the 145+ club.

Altogether I think the package of Klefki brings an entirely new perspective to the tier and will shift it into a very offensive route but I think it will give the tier a larger variety of builds in the process, and I think it's capable enough of being managed. There are a few combinations of offensive mons that it enables that I'm more concerned about (AoA Fire Blast Hydra, Bee, Entei) so I'm very narrowly on the do not ban side but if Hydra is here to stay, I think that Klefki makes the tier better than it was before

 

[Hogg]

Sorry for the delay, all. With a near-unanimous council vote, Klefki is officially unbanned, and will remain legal in UnderUsed. Thanks to everyone who provided feedback and participated in the suspecting and voting process.

vote results

dodmen: Unban
Sam: Abstain
Hogg: Unban
King UU: Unban
Manipulative*: Unban
Tony: Unban
Christo: Unban
Ice Tea: Unban
Pearl: Unban

*took the place of IronBullet for this vote