np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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Thorhammer said:
This is clearly false, as proven by the fact that the question was proposed in the first place.
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You knew what he meant. I mean, you're technically right, but he wasn't being so literal.

Thorhammer said:
Support for complex bans appears to increase with every round, especially among the newer players Smogon has been afraid complex bans would scare off. Meanwhile, Policy Review and the rest of Smogon have never been allowed to be polled to share their collective opinion on the subject; when I attempted to make a poll on that and related matters here in DST, it was locked almost immediately, and the mod who locked it admitted later that the only reason new complex bans are universally rejected is not because of any vote, but simply because the higher-ups have taken it upon themselves to bypass Smogon's methods and declare it as an arbitrary authoritarian rule. There are many people here who think complex bans can solve certain issues better than blanket bans, and if Smogon doesn't at least listen to hear what they have to say, it will soon lose its place as the competitive Pokemon battling authority.
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I wouldn't say support for complex bans increases every round. This round in fact, it seems to have gotten less support than in the past. Yes, it's been brought up more often, but it's been carried on and championed in any significant way much less often than before.
And I don't actually think it's because Smogon is afraid of alienating new players. I believe it's more of a problem of principle- complex bans being seen as straight-up bad (which I'll admit, I agree with).

I remember when you made that thread/poll, and I really don't mean to be rude, but please don't bemoan the locking of it here (or if you're not complaining and I misinterpreted, then please explain how that incident supports your claim, because I'm failing to see it).

I personally have no problem with the "authoritarian" decision being made, not only because I agree with the decision, but because I have no real attachment to voting on these sorts of matters anyway. I suppose I would feel differently if I did disagree, but then I would argue with the decision itself, not the authoritarian way that it was made. Since you, Thorhammer, have said in the past that you don't care about the result of the vote on this, that you simply want one, I'm curious why you cling so adamantly to the need for a vote.

You're right, there are many people on Smogon who want complex bans, but you cannot deny that there are also a great many who oppose them, and my hypothesis is that the latter is a majority. While we should listen to pro-complex ban people, as you said, that doesn't mean ignoring the mass of anti-complex ban people either.

About your last sentence. You do realize that when Aldaron's Proposal was implemented, Smogon actually took a lot of heat from other sites, right? A ton of other communities thought we were nuts for not just banning Politoed or Drizzle. Smogon's place of "the best" was shaken by that, not solidified.


Malvira said:
Although I agree with a lot of what you say, the bolded portion is just completely false. Other communities' tiering are dreadful due to the significant gap in skill level and mentality, and it is highly likely that none of them will gain any significant traction in battling authority, even if they are more democratic than Smogon.
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I haven't spent large amounts of time on other forums and servers, just like a day or two here and there.
But in my admittedly shallow experience, Malvira speaks the truth about other communities.
 
Specially-defensive Zapdos is quite similar to the role of Jirachi - they both majorly counter Tornadus, Special Grass, Latias, and Gengar. Jirachi is used more, though, because it can additionally take hits from Reuniclus, Alakazam, and Latios.

Specially-defensive Zapdos had more of a niche last gen, because there were no strong Psychic sweepers that are available now, and it was also used to stop Water Sweepers, namely Suicune. However, the Water Sweepers in 5th gen is buffed by Rain, making Zapdos not the best at stomaching Water hits. Even a Hydro Pump from Scarf Toed threatens to 2HKO. Specially defensive Grass Types and Water Absorbers / Storm Drainers took Zapdos role as a Water counter.
 
I've never fought Sp. Def Zapdos.
It's a waste of Sp. Atk and Speed to invest all its EVs into defenses with Zapdos IMO.
 
Offensive Zappy is the way to go. Even with a Modest nature, it outspeeds most everything (who says Base 100 isn't great any more?) bar Scarfed stuff and Starmie, and it has great natural bulk... And it can actually use its defensive typing, unlike Thunudurus who everyone praised for having great defensive typing, then did nothing with it due to it having no bulk and no Roost. And with HP Ice, it laughs at Gliscor and Dragonite who come in to wall it. Of course, now with Thundurus gone offensive Zap is more expected than before, and I think that it might take Thundurus's place in OU. Let's face it, it deserves to be an OU veteran. Don't let Gengar and Starmie be the only ones (and poor Snorlax... nothing can save you now...)
 
Most people are dumb anyways, although I never saw the votes, the fact that BP and haxrachi were even nominated becomes a warning sign of how easy it is for a simple democacry to do not so smart things.
 
Seeyalater said:
Most people are dumb anyways, although I never saw the votes, the fact that BP and haxrachi were even nominated becomes a warning sign of how easy it is for a simple democacry to do not so smart things.
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With Haxrachi, it was nominated because it induces a major element of luck into the game. I don't agree with this view on the metagame, but I can see where they're coming from. With Baton Pass, it is very hard to defeat the chain once it's started. Notable exceptions include Haxorus and Dragonite. Taunt and pHazing can be circumvented via Espeon.
 
tomtom5858 said:
With Baton Pass, it is very hard to defeat the chain once it's started. Notable exceptions include Haxorus and Dragonite. Taunt and pHazing can be circumvented via Espeon.
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Exactly, surely it would make more sense to ban Espeon over Baton Pass because, rather than banning a whole playstyle, and move, why not just ban the factor that makes it broken?

I assume however, this point has been brought up before.
 
Seeyalater said:
Most people are dumb anyways, although I never saw the votes, the fact that BP and haxrachi were even nominated becomes a warning sign of how easy it is for a simple democacry to do not so smart things.
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"They don't agree with me, so clearly the process sucks and people with the same views as mine should make the calls".


No. The fact that Jirachi was nominated by a few and yet didn't even get a vote shows how the system works (worked), even with its many flaws.
 
ToeyJoey said:
Exactly, surely it would make more sense to ban Espeon over Baton Pass because, rather than banning a whole playstyle, and move, why not just ban the factor that makes it broken?

I assume however, this point has been brought up before.
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Yeah, it has been brought up before. People generally agreed with this, but nobody wanted to ban Espeon. Espeon isn't broken without BPass, and BPass isn't broken without Espeon. If we're going to ban something in this case, I see combo banning Espeon+Baton Pass being the only logical solution. However, I don't see Baton Pass as being broken, and thus see this being unnecessary.
 
I'm putting it out right here, I highly disagree with banning BP in any form, but I agree with Tomtom that if anything, Espeon + BP should be banned. Like Pocket said tons of times, banning BP will pretty much discredit Smogon and pretty much cement "I can't deal with it, so ban now!" Banning Espeon will do the same thing as... well... its Espeon.
 
Seeyalater said:
Most people are dumb anyways, although I never saw the votes, the fact that BP and haxrachi were even nominated becomes a warning sign of how easy it is for a simple democacry to do not so smart things.
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Except they weren't because Smogon isn't a democracy. And it's good that it isn't, although the alternatives also have their issues.
 
I don't believe Baton Pass broken either but to bring up again, what others have previously; surely Espeon+Baton Pass is just another unnecessary complex ban that the higher ups are trying to avoid. Therefore, be Baton Pass broken, the element that makes it broken, Espeon, should go instead of the move. If people want rid of the Baton Pass teams that can deal with everything that used to kill them, because of Espeon, doesn't it make more sense to have a single ban of one Pokemon? Rather than a whole move that is quite useful situationally for things trying to escape from trappers, or an entire playstyle that while without Espeon is rather useless. However, it is easy to present the argument that unlike Excadrill, for example, Espeon would be useful outside of Baton Pass for generic Magic Bouncing. This leads back to the complex ban which while would work best, is trying to be avoided, like how people keep saying

Why can't I use Blaze Blaziken?
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Blaze Blaziken probably, (speculation,) end up UU without Speed Boost but it's most broken set banned it as competitive Pokémon has pretty much always operated.

To sum up:

Ban Baton Pass: Whole playstyle. Limits "diversity."
Ban Espeon: Stoppping a single Pokemno being used, is viable outside of Baton Pass.
Ban Espeon+Baton Pass: Trying to avoid complex bans. "Slippery Slope" argument. Overcomplicates tiers.

I kind of hope this made sense.
 
Stopping a single pokémon of being used even though it's viable outside of [X] is the way we've worked since the Hyper Beam Tauros days, and there is no reason to change it now. Like, zero reason. Minus one, even.



Funny that we were discussing Zapdos and a single post has derailed us completely...
 
I know most people hate complex bans, but for BP, it makes so much more sence. BP and Espeon by themselves broken. BP is beaten by things like Taunting, pHazing, and even Encore, and Espeon isn't that good except for it's ability. (kind of like stuff like Politoed and Ninetales) But together, they're dangerous, as Espeon beats all the common BP counters as well as benefiting from BP.
For those of you who still think we shouldn't do a complex ban just because it's a complex ban, remember the Rain Dance + Drizzle ban? That was a complex ban, but it worked. We managed to get rid of the broken element while keeping the playstyle and the Pokemon who weren't broken by themselves. It would be the basically the exact same thing with a complex ban for BP.
 
The thing with complex bans is that they aren't exactly bans, they are rules, they are nerfs. While banning swift swim + drizzle ban certainly saved our metagame (even if it wasn't the only plausible solution) it was also very harmful to our community and its creative (and unprepared) mindset. Politoed is doing just fine in the current metagame while kingdra can fill certain niches, we added a rule in our ruleset to avoid adding names to our banlist, but the same thing could be done to empty our current banlist.

There's a rule saying we can use swift swim if we don't use drizzle, but why there's no rule allowing us to use a lvl80 Kyogre? Yeah, it sounds stupid, but it's not worse than any other complex ban (or should i say "nerf via rule"?). It's not different from banning drizzle + swift swim, it's not different from suggesting a Multiscale ban (a.k.a Dragonite nerf because Multiscale isn't broken per se) and it's not different from allowing Mewtwo into OU if he only uses subpar moves. Alas,

I mean, as far as i know, suspect test was supposed to be a way to identify broken pokemons, identify the culprits and add them to our ban list, not to create inumerous rules with infinite possibilities that range from mewtwo being unbanned to excadrill having to hold an iron ball. We aren't supposed to nerf things deemed too powerful, we are supposed to add them to our banlist.

Identifying the culprit isn't always easy, but i'd rather spend months, maybe years building a good metagame with a huge banlist (this isn't being banhappy) than end playing pokemon with dozens of nerfs, a two-pages ruleset and an ugly metagame filled with makeup.

That's why i'm more than happy with that "arbitrary authoritarian rule". Sadly we still have that swift swim/drizzle nerf, but oh well, it could've been worse!

EDIT: Fuck, i'd hate to see baton pass banned, but if people decide it's broken then i'd rather never use it again than play with a rule that could be compared to a bronzong being thrown in a HO team as a last ditch effort to lessen its problems.

EDIT2: Wait, let's use another example. Why there's a drizzle + swift swim ban instead of a swift swimmer with water move ban? It would serve the same purpose but with different results, but due to personal preference it was never brought up, even if it could've resulted in a better metagame. With such a huge number of possibilities, it's highly likely that a better option won't even be thought of.
 
Actually, Ability bans are viable and not considered complex, that is, when that ability is broken on every pokemon (e.g Moody); that's why people suggested a Multiscale ban instead of a full Dragonite ban.
 
Blue_Star said:
Actually, Ability bans are viable and not considered complex, that is, when that ability is broken on every pokemon (e.g Moody); that's why people suggested a Multiscale ban instead of a full Dragonite ban.
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Banning moody isn't that different from banning double team, minimize or banning a pokemon. It's banned from EVERYTHING, it's not a complex ban, completly different from banning Multiscale from Dragonite even though we all know it wouldn't bring us any harm if, for example, Yanmega had it.

oh and PLEASE LET'S NOT TALK ABOUT DRAGONITE, i'm sorry for mentioning it, let us use another example.
 
Pippy said:
I know most people hate complex bans, but for BP, it makes so much more sence. BP and Espeon by themselves broken. BP is beaten by things like Taunting, pHazing, and even Encore, and Espeon isn't that good except for it's ability. (kind of like stuff like Politoed and Ninetales) But together, they're dangerous, as Espeon beats all the common BP counters as well as benefiting from BP.
For those of you who still think we shouldn't do a complex ban just because it's a complex ban, remember the Rain Dance + Drizzle ban? That was a complex ban, but it worked. We managed to get rid of the broken element while keeping the playstyle and the Pokemon who weren't broken by themselves. It would be the basically the exact same thing with a complex ban for BP.
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the thing is why only do it for BP+espeon case or any other specific cases?
the most popular arguments for my case would be blaze blaziken, rough skin garchomp (though we've never tested rough skin garchomp...but that's not the point), escadrill without sand rush, and thundurus without prankster. Hell, we can even include things such as kyogre or rayquaza with certain moves, abilities. For instance, rayquaza without outrage and extremespeed and such COULD be tested for OU. Now, that just sounds ridiculous.
 
ToeyJoey said:
To sum up:

Ban Baton Pass: Whole playstyle. Limits "diversity."
Ban Espeon: Stoppping a single Pokemno being used, is viable outside of Baton Pass.
Ban Espeon+Baton Pass: Trying to avoid complex bans. "Slippery Slope" argument. Overcomplicates tiers.
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I'm sure it's been mentioned before but you can't forget ban Magic Bounce+Baton Pass. If we ever run into this problem later (who knows how it may happen) then we have to ban another Pokemon for the exact same reason and Espeon is still banned from Baton Pass. We should make it simpler first if we so choose to go this way. (Not saying we will ban it or keep it)

And not that complex bans are bad, I mean, we have Swift Swim+Drizzle banned. It shows how a very clear strategy that is quite overpowered or gives an unfair advantage can be removed from the metagame to restore balance. I mean, look at all the rain teams out there with this complex ban already in place. It didn't stop rain and this ban probably would not stop Baton Pass from finding its use without Magic Bounce too.
 
We have four options here.

1. Ban Baton Pass
2. Ban Espeon
3. Ban Espeon + Baton Pass
4. No Bans

1. seems ridiculous due to the fact that your eliminating a whole play-style that is only broken because of Espeon (it would be like banning Sand Stream instead of banning Excadrill). There's no point in pointlessly making the metagame less diverse.

4. is viable, but at this point, I think we can safely say that BP is OP.

2. This or 3. seem to be the best options. You can either go for tradition and ban Espeon, in other words, banning a Pokemon that is only broken in given conditions, or you can ban Espeon and BP, in other words, banning the condition in which the said Pokemon is broken in.

It boils down to what you prefer. Should the whole Pokemon be banned when it's only broken in certain conditions? Or should the Pokemon be unable to fulfill the certain conditions it's broken in?

Personally, I think we should stay away from complex bans unless we are faced with an issue that will vastly decrease the diversity of the metagame. Banning one Pokemon will not drastically decrease the metagame's ecosystem.
 
EpicTurtle said:
We have four options here.

1. Ban Baton Pass
2. Ban Espeon
3. Ban Espeon + Baton Pass
4. No Bans

1. seems ridiculous due to the fact that your eliminating a whole play-style that is only broken because of Espeon (it would be like banning Sand Stream instead of banning Excadrill). There's no point in pointlessly making the metagame less diverse.
Agreed, with the eliminating a non broken part of a strategy atleast.

4. is viable, but at this point, I think we can safely say that BP is OP.
Since when?

2. This or 3. seem to be the best options. You can either go for tradition and ban Espeon, in other words, banning a Pokemon that is only broken in given conditions, or you can ban Espeon and BP, in other words, banning the condition in which the said Pokemon is broken in.
If anything, it should be 3. Not that it will. It's damn BP for crying outloud...

It boils down to what you prefer. Should the whole Pokemon be banned when it's only broken in certain conditions? Or should the Pokemon be unable to fulfill the certain conditions it's broken in?

Personally, I think we should stay away from complex bans unless we are faced with an issue that will vastly decrease the diversity of the metagame. Banning one Pokemon will not drastically decrease the metagame's ecosystem.
But BP isn't overpowered. And even if Espy is gone, Xatu will take it's place. And then what? We ban ROFL Xatu to Ubers? Espeon is already laughable enough, but Xatu...we'd be in a similar scenario as with the BP ban. Being the laughing stock of competitive battling...
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Just saying.
 
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