np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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j/s but there's so many mix ape versions you really cant say it isnt running something. What do you do if I decide to run SD Mixape with SD/Fire Blast/Close Combat/Earthquake? There's a reason Kefka asked people to find counters for those sets, its because they cant be 100% countered, period (ignoring MixMence). (Admittedly, I'm hard pressed to find a way for Ape to beat Jelli outside of a +2 Sun boosted Fire Blast)
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
j/s but there's so many mix ape versions you really cant say it isnt running something. What do you do if I decide to run SD Mixape with SD/Fire Blast/Close Combat/Earthquake? There's a reason Kefka asked people to find counters for those sets, its because they cant be 100% countered, period (ignoring MixMence). (Admittedly, I'm hard pressed to find a way for Ape to beat Jelli outside of a +2 Sun boosted Fire Blast)
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+2 Life Orb boosted Grass Knot.

I didn't think it was that hard to find.

252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot vs 248 HP/0 SpDef Jellicent: 115.63% - 135.98%
100% chance to OHKO
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
j/s but there's so many mix ape versions you really cant say it isnt running something. What do you do if I decide to run SD Mixape with SD/Fire Blast/Close Combat/Earthquake? There's a reason Kefka asked people to find counters for those sets, its because they cant be 100% countered, period (ignoring MixMence). (Admittedly, I'm hard pressed to find a way for Ape to beat Jelli outside of a +2 Sun boosted Fire Blast)
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When female DW Infernape gets released or the elemental punches come out in the third game T-Punch will be a common tool for Infernape to take out many water threats without resorting to Grass Knot,Jellicent included.

Also i think that a +2 GK from Nape ohkoes standrt Jellicent doesn't it?

EDIT:I made a mistake,+2 life orb T-Punch always ohkoes Jelli even without Iron Fist.
EDIT again:Mistake again +2 life orb T-Punch never ohkoes Jeli without Iron Fist.
 
Meh, I discounted Grass Knot since there's far too many situations where its useless :/

Also, I did consider Thunderpunch as well but I don't believe it KOs, particularly given the frequency of physically defensive Jelli's.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Meh, I discounted Grass Knot since there's far too many situations where its useless :/

Also, I did consider Thunderpunch as well but I don't believe it KOs, particularly given the frequency of physically defensive Jelli's.
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Are you joking? There's many situations where it's useful.

Also, replying to your old comment, SD Infernape is almost always Swords Dance + Flare Blitz + Close Combat + Stone Edge.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Meh, I discounted Grass Knot since there's far too many situations where its useless :/

Also, I did consider Thunderpunch as well but I don't believe it KOs, particularly given the frequency of physically defensive Jelli's.
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You shoudn't be discounting things when you first mentioned EQ on Nape as a way to beat Tenta.
 
LucaroarkZ said:
It's not that they don't have a viable counter, it's that they have very few viable counters and the viable counters most likely suck outside of countering said Pokemon or are very shaky checks. Especially with Dragonite; You need Stealth Rock up to effectively deal with it and even then every team with Dragonite has a spinner (usually Starmie)

I guarantee that if Dragonite didn't have Multiscale, it would not be so high in the ranks in OU; I doubt it would even be OU at all since Haxorus and Salamence would automatically become better Dragon Dancers.

Also, Infernape DOES have a universal check at least: Alakazam. Alakazam OHKOes regardless of whether it uses Psyshock or Psychic.

Also, I found the Scarf Porygon2 comment hilarious. Is that even competitively viable? Good luck taking any hits, as the above poster said.
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BP Chains have few counters? You basically want ONE pokemon that not only completely rapes an ENTIRE playstyle, but is also good outside of destroying BP. Anyway, you can always use CB Haxorus and other strong attackers to break through their Ninjask's weak Subs + Vaporeon/Mew when it BPs.

Of course Dnite wouldn't be OU without MS. What exactly are you arguing? Lots of pokemon wouldn't be OU without SOME trait. And SR is definitely NOT the only way.
If we're talking bulkyDD, then Skarmory, Gliscor, Heatran, Rotom-W(With TrickScarf), Mamoswine(after even 1% of damage <,<), and others can switch it and either force it out via WW/Roar/D-tail or Burn/Toxic/Paralyze it while still surviving a +1 DClaw or Fire punch.(They rarely use EQ...)

Well, the argument was for a counter, not a check...either way, the point stands. Just because something has few counters doesn't necessarily mean it is broken. I do not care how many times it has been mentioned in these topics, it still remains true.

Are you joking? There's many situations where it's useful.
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Yea!! Like you can OHKO Gastrodon and Jellicent, aaaaaand...Gastrodon and Jellicent!...
 
LucaroarkZ said:
Are you joking? There's many situations where it's useful.

Also, replying to your old comment, SD Infernape is almost always Swords Dance + Flare Blitz + Close Combat + Stone Edge.
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Texas Cloverleaf said:
j/s but there's so many mix ape versions you really cant say it isnt running something. What do you do if I decide to run SD Mixape with SD/Fire Blast/Close Combat/Earthquake?
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Ans I didn't say it wasn't useful. I said there's far to many situations that its useless. I'd rather run SD/NP, Fire STAB, Fighting STAB, coverage move that isnt useless on the majority of the metagame rather than Grass Knot. HP Ice/Electric I'd even prefer so I'm not walled by Dragonite/Gyarados which I'd be far more concerned about than Jellicent.
 
Kefka Palazzo™ said:
BP Chains have few counters? You basically want ONE pokemon that not only completely rapes an ENTIRE playstyle, but is also good outside of destroying BP. Anyway, you can always use CB Haxorus and other strong attackers to break through their Ninjask's weak Subs + Vaporeon/Mew when it BPs.

Of course Dnite wouldn't be OU without MS. What exactly are you arguing? Lots of pokemon wouldn't be OU without SOME trait. And SR is definitely NOT the only way.
If we're talking bulkyDD, then Skarmory, Gliscor, Heatran, Rotom-W(With TrickScarf), Mamoswine(after even 1% of damage <,<), and others can switch it and either force it out via WW/Roar/D-tail or Burn/Toxic/Paralyze it while still surviving a +1 DClaw or Fire punch.(They rarely use EQ...)

Well, the argument was for a counter, not a check...either way, the point stands. Just because something has few counters doesn't necessarily mean it is broken. I do not care how many times it has been mentioned in these topics, it still remains true.
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Vaporeon is going to Acid Armor, so even CB Haxorus would be considered pretty weak against BP.

I'd also like to remind you that Dragonite basically always has Outrage, not Dragon Claw.

Try this: an offensive counter to Dragonite that can OHKO it from full health and outspeed it after a Dragon Dance, because there are some teams where those Pokemon just won't fit in.

I will say this once: Skarmory sucks. It doesn't deserve any form of usage it may be getting. What is Skarmory going to do when Dragonite is the last Pokemon left? Whirlw - Oh wait...

And if Dragonite just happens to have Earthquake, then Heatran needs a balloon to handle it.

I would like to say that Choice Scarf Haxorus deserves a special mention, since it's pretty much guaranteed to be faster unless in the unlikely event that Dragonite grabs two Dragon Dances, and Mold Breaker ignores Multiscale. Banded/DD Haxorus does better if Dragonite hasn't used Dragon Dance.
 
LucaroarkZ said:
Vaporeon is going to Acid Armor, so even CB Haxorus would be considered pretty weak against BP.

I'd also like to remind you that Dragonite basically always has Outrage, not Dragon Claw.

Try this: an offensive counter to Dragonite that can OHKO it from full health and outspeed it after a Dragon Dance, because there are some teams where those Pokemon just won't fit in.

I will say this once: Skarmory sucks. It doesn't deserve any form of usage it may be getting. What is Skarmory going to do when Dragonite is the last Pokemon left? Whirlw - Oh wait...

And if Dragonite just happens to have Earthquake, then Heatran needs a balloon to handle it.
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When Vaporeon is going to Armor Acid against a quicker Haxorus CB?
 
LucaroarkZ said:
Vaporeon is going to Acid Armor, so even CB Haxorus would be considered pretty weak against BP.

I'd also like to remind you that Dragonite basically always has Outrage, not Dragon Claw.

Try this: an offensive counter to Dragonite that can OHKO it from full health and outspeed it after a Dragon Dance, because there are some teams where those Pokemon just won't fit in.

I will say this once: Skarmory sucks. What is Skarmory going to do when Dragonite is the last Pokemon left? Whirlw - Oh wait...

And if Dragonite just happens to have Earthquake, then Heatran needs a balloon to handle it.
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-Ninjask manages to get to +6 Speed and uses BP as Haxy uses Outrage.
-Haxy hits Vappy with Outrage as it switches in and if Vappy survives, it is forced to BP again or die.

EDIT: Here's what Max/Max Vaporeon takes from JOLLY MOLD BREAKER CB Haxorus' Outrage-
589 Atk vs 240 Def & 464 HP (120 Base Power): 316 - 373 (68.10% - 80.39%)



Always? Not really, I've seen quite a few with D-Claw. Why do we NEED an offensive counter anyway? Where does it say we MUST preserve HO as a playstyle?(I'm assuming that's where you're going with that argument)
Anyway, if you want to use arguments like that, I'll send in Bulky Cloyster with a White Herb.

I will say this once: Skarmory doesn't suck. Sure, it has trouble with last-man-standing Pokemon, but then, you shouldn't slap on Skarmory and expect it to stop every physical attacker. Either way, what's stopping me from sending in a check or what if i have another counter or if I have Perish Song or something? <,<

And if Dnite happens to have EQ, it gets walled by a million more things.
 
LucaroarkZ said:
Vaporeon is going to Acid Armor, so even CB Haxorus would be considered pretty weak against BP.

I'd also like to remind you that Dragonite basically always has Outrage, not Dragon Claw.

Try this: an offensive counter to Dragonite that can OHKO it from full health and outspeed it after a Dragon Dance, because there are some teams where those Pokemon just won't fit in.

I will say this once: Skarmory sucks. What is Skarmory going to do when Dragonite is the last Pokemon left? Whirlw - Oh wait...
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No, most Nites run Dragon Claw. (at least from my experience)
As for that counter you want, that's a tall order, and I don't think that's possible in OU. Without the DD, something like a specs Starmie might be able to do it, and MAYBE specs Latios's Draco Meteor (but I doubt it) Although it won't outspeed, a Cloyster could probably do it. Unfortunatly, after a DD, you need a scarf to outspeed it, but you have to have the specs to even hope for a KO. Needless to say, SR, status, and phasing are the best ways to beat Nite.
 
Dusclops is a better counter than cofagrigus anyways.

Mixnite, Mixmence and Mixape can all be "countered" by Cresselia, though it's incredibly mediocre at doing anything other than being setup fodder.
 
I don't think Dragonite would not be OU without MultiScale. It's true is much better with MS, but without is good too.

Cofragigus has the trouble in it has a shadow movepool and no reliable recovery move(even no Sleep Talk), and Dusclops is better as a wall so it also cannot stand the raw power of powerhouses at OU like evolite(obviously) Dusclops can do. Despite this, is good in lower tiers like RU.
 
What is this about Salamence not being countered by good viable OU pokemon? Have you people never heard or Porygon2? How about Bronzong + rain support, thats 2 viable ones right there.
 
waterwarrior said:
Dugtrio is not correct. Any flying type and Levitator avoid Arena Trap.
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Yes, but to be a counter, it has to be able to switch in, and a flyer or levitator can't do that when trio has trapped a non flying or levitating poke, thus, making it impossible to counter.
 
Pippy said:
Yes, but to be a counter, it has to be able to switch in, and a flyer or levitator can't do that when trio has trapped a non flying or levitating poke, thus, making it impossible to counter.
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What I meant is that Flying types/ Levitators can easily switch out, not that they can switch in, which they can't.
 
Pippy said:
No, most Nites run Dragon Claw. (at least from my experience)
As for that counter you want, that's a tall order, and I don't think that's possible in OU. Without the DD, something like a specs Starmie might be able to do it, and MAYBE specs Latios's Draco Meteor (but I doubt it) After a DD, you need a scarf to outspeed it, but you have to have the specs to even hope for a KO. Needless to say, SR, status, and phasing are the best ways to Nite.
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I've seen one Dragonite with Dragon Claw, out of the many I've fought.

Also, SR is a very VERY shaky way to check Dragonite. Ever heard of Rapid Spin? And I'd like to remind you that Starmie is capable of getting past Jellicent.

The bolded statement is exactly what I was trying to say by saying "find me an offensive counter to Dragonite". It's either you can't or it's really hard to.

@Kefka, Cloyster sucks. Its Special bulk is so bad that Lucario's LO Modest Vacuum Wave OHKOs it without any boosts. While it can beat Dragonite, stopping Cloyster's sweep isn't that hard to do. And I didn't say preserving HO was necessary, but some players prefer to play with a purely offensive play-style (I'm one of them), and quite frankly I believe that players who want to play a purely offensive style should be allowed to. There's nothing that says HO shouldn't be usable.
 
so... wtf are you guys talking about right now???

NP Ape has serious coverage issues. Without HP Ice, it has no chance breaking through Latias / Latios / Dragonite. Without Grass Knot, it's not breaking through specially-defensive Water Types. Sun Support can help it outmuscle through these threats with Summer BBQ-boosted fire stab.

Outside of Sun, either a SD set or an all-out attacking / scouting set would be more desirable. You get a more acceptable coverage with the SD set (Fighting + Fire + Rock), and the all-out attack set has the extra slot for nigh-perfect coverage (Fire Blast, Close Combat, Grass Knot, HP Ice / Stone-Edge / U-turn, for instance).
 
There is no write in nowhere place Hyper Offensive must be viable.

So Full Stall is not viable.




Jellicent takes 120 base power against Grass Knot like Milotic.
 
Anyway, what do you guys think about Nidoking now that Excadrill has gone? With its LO and Scarf sets it can be a hugely threatening special attacker, even if it is hard walled by Chansey.
 
Well, it faces the same problems in OU that it does in UU, except multiplied by two. A LO set is ever more easily outsped and Scarf dents a lot less.
 
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