np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[TM13IceBeam]

CB Azumarill is also a good revenge-killer for Excadrill...

 

[alexwolf]

Actually is it better to call Azu a revenge killer or a counter?
Since he is actually a counter to Exca being able to take everything from a +0 Exca and ohko back with AJ!

 

[Charro]

Err just check, actually Adamant life orb EQ does 71.3% - 84.2% to 252/0 Azumarill, that's an OHKO with SR and sandstorm damage on the switch

Lucario is not a counter either, you can't switch in because your balloon will be popped (predicting EQ doesn't count)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Except that when ou switch in you get +2 Special Attack anyway so you either set up +2 on the switch out and retain your Balloon...or set up +2 anyway and kill Excadrill.

 

[Ninja_13]

Except that when ou switch in you get +2 Special Attack anyway so you either set up +2 on the switch out and retain your Balloon...or set up +2 anyway and kill Excadrill.

Charro is saying is that he's not a counter because you can't switch in on a Rock Slide or whatever filler move he has, because they will pop his balloon and allow Excadrill to OHKO next turn with Earthquake, regardless of whether it's at +2 or not. Lucario isn't getting to +2 if his Balloon is popped on the switch, which means his VW won't KO.

From the context of your quote it sounds like you believe Excadrill is the one switching in, which I don't see why it would what with it being a Fighting type, ESPECIALLY since your opponent will already know that Lucario has a Balloon. It's not relevant to the discussion either, as we're talking about Balloon NP Lucario as an Excadrill counter/check, not how it deals with an Excadrill switch-in.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

You misunderstand. My intention was that it doesn't matter whether it can switch in at all. Assume Excadrill gets to plus 6 and kills a death fodder. All of a sudden, here comes Lucario who can now get a guaranteed +2, either as Exca switches out or as it breaks the Balloon, but either way, the presence of Excadrill opens a very threatening door against your opponent.

If you consider my post as Lucario switching in, it still gets to +2 on half of Exca's moveset (far easier than it sounds given that unless the opponent is a Celebi or a Genie 99% of the time an Exca is using SD or EQ).

 

[Woodchuck]

You misunderstand. My intention was that it doesn't matter whether it can switch in at all. Assume Excadrill gets to plus 6 and kills a death fodder. All of a sudden, here comes Lucario who can now get a guaranteed +2, either as Exca switches out or as it breaks the Balloon, but either way, the presence of Excadrill opens a very threatening door against your opponent.

252 +6 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs 4 HP/0 Def Lucario: 154.61% - 181.91%

...yeah.
Yes, you can predict an Earthquake, but it's far safer and consistent to come in on a revenge kill. Either way, Lucario is an excellent way to take advantage of the Excadrills on most sand teams. With NP Luke on my team I cheer when I see Excadrill rather than shudder :P

Although:
252 +2 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs 4 HP/0 Def Lucario: 77.3% - 91.13%
so you'd better hope they don't have Spikes up.
EDIT: Wait, no, Spikes doesn't hit you 9.9. You still can't switch into SR twice safely.

Also, has anyone used Agilicario at all? It can do the same thing -- Agility up on Excadrill -- then sweep.

 

[alphatron]

HEY! I've used Camerupt in OU! Drilbur on a Rain team is a better use of a team slot than Camerupt.

Trapper Teams are pretty damn viable in OU. Especially considering Tyranitar's most used set is in fact a trapper set. This may be a 4th Gen team but it does the best job of explaining exactly how a Trap team works.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40480

I'm aware Rotom-W shits all over that team, but it's just an example. I'd love to see someone build upon that premise as it's a very good gimmick. I'm sure there's a lot of better Pokemon to use than Weavile & Uxie now. Hell throw Scarf Tyranitar in Weavile's slot & you could easily mold it into a Sand team.

Well, I wasn't just thinking of Rotom-W and Scizor. I was also thinking about the sheer number of teams that carry bulky boosting pokemon who usually don't care about being trapped on the battlefield by the current trappers in the metagame (Scrafty for example), but it sounds like a fun idea. I shouldn't knock it until a try it. And yeah, scarf tyranitar definitely sounds better than weaville in this instance.

 

[BurningMan]

Also, has anyone used Agilicario at all? It can do the same thing -- Agility up on Excadrill -- then sweep.

Terrakion does the same but better physically and specially Aurasphere and Dark Pulse are just too weak even with LO and Modest.

 

[badabing]

Terrakion does the same but better physically and specially Aurasphere and Dark Pulse are just too weak even with LO and Modest.

Mmmm debatable because Agility Luc has Ice Punch and Crunch. Ice Punch lets him pick off a weakened Gli even when its unboosted, while you cant say the same for stab Stone Edge. Luc doesn't have nasty weaks to common priority either. Though special Luc should probably be Nasty Plot instead...

edit @ Haunter: thoughts on the deadline?

edit by Haunter: no, but the server won't be up anytime soon.

 

[alphatron]

I wouldn't bank on using balloon terrakion to check Excadrill, but balloon terrakion is a great pokemon all on his own. If Gliscor switches in on the sword's dance, he's dead in two stone edges.

Also, I can't really say that I see the love for azu. Using good prediction to mold an ideal scenario will make any pokemon look good. Like cacturne for instance.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Wow, I've noticed some threat from Terrakion and Landorus from battling them. Every time I fight them they manage to outspeed my scarfers that have 350-400 speed. AND manage to then OHKO. How the hell do Terrakion and Landorus do that shit? It's really annoying.

Also what can I do against them.

 

[Ewil]

My rotom-w hate increase every day, it's incredibly weird how this thing abuse rain and get rid of rain team if placed in sand team and that needs a simply rain support to spam STAB boosted Hydro pump and 100% acc Thunder and, if you not have rain up, it can volt switch or burn things (and trick yeah).

Gastrodon and Quagsire are really the only things that can completely wall this washing machine from hell, you must run something that is immune to his STAB (bar Ferrothorn) 'coz even the things that resist him takes a huge damage if switching on an attack.

You have another check/counter for Rotom over Gastrodon, Quagsire & Ferrothorn ?

 

[Mr_br_kill]

@ wintston They most likely were scarfed themselves. Landorus (in sand) and terrakion both are really powerfull. Bu could you tell us which scarfers you were using

 

[M BLADE]

Grass pokes. Ones with good Sp.Def.
Also... well... Blissey?

 

[B-Lulz]

My rotom-w hate increase every day, it's incredibly weird how this thing abuse rain and get rid of rain team if placed in sand team and that needs a simply rain support to spam STAB boosted Hydro pump and 100% acc Thunder and, if you not have rain up, it can volt switch or burn things (and trick yeah).

Gastrodon and Quagsire are really the only things that can completely wall this washing machine from hell, you must run something that is immune to his STAB (bar Ferrothorn) 'coz even the things that resist him takes a huge damage if switching on an attack.

You have another check/counter for Rotom over Gastrodon, Quagsire & Ferrothorn ?

Lati@s, Hydreigon, Celebi, almost all Grass types tbh...

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Not only is Celebi immune to Will-o-wisp and resists both of Rotom's stabs, but it doesn't particularly mind a Trick either and assuming it isn't a scarf/specs variant, Celebi can then set up a Nasty Plot on the switch out.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

My rotom-w hate increase every day, it's incredibly weird how this thing abuse rain and get rid of rain team if placed in sand team and that needs a simply rain support to spam STAB boosted Hydro pump and 100% acc Thunder and, if you not have rain up, it can volt switch or burn things (and trick yeah).

Gastrodon and Quagsire are really the only things that can completely wall this washing machine from hell, you must run something that is immune to his STAB (bar Ferrothorn) 'coz even the things that resist him takes a huge damage if switching on an attack.

You have another check/counter for Rotom over Gastrodon, Quagsire & Ferrothorn ?

I've really begun to dislike Rotom-W since it became so common. It's just a really annoying thing to deal with. I personally LOVE the Rotom-C lawnmower form, and I use him.

Rotom-C is actually a pretty great check/counter to Rotom-W with his leaf storm, as well as putting down water ground types. I didnt invest any defenses or hp for my Rotom-C and he takes like 10-30% damage from mostly anything Rotom-W throws at him, so he's a great pokemon against wash form.

@ wintston They most likely were scarfed themselves. Landorus (in sand) and terrakion both are really powerfull. Bu could you tell us which scarfers you were using

Damn, I really hate terrakion and landorus, being able to OHKO and outspeed even my fastest pokemon. -_- (OP in my opinion)

I use Rotom Cut which hits like 410 speed until he tricks his scarf away, and Chandelure at 380~ speed. Froslass at 350 speed.

 

[Nubagator]

Quick question, it's the 19th now, with the deadline for the round set at midnight tomorrow. Will this stand with the server having been down for almost a week (still currently down) ? Or will the round's ending be pushed back? Just curious :/

 

[Curtains]

Quick question, it's the 19th now, with the deadline for the round set at midnight tomorrow. Will this stand with the server having been down for almost a week (still currently down) ? Or will the round's ending be pushed back? Just curious :/

Since there is no way to get to the server the rounds end will most likely be pushed back until a few weeks after we can get another person to run the server which might be weeks or even months.

 

[badabing]

I wouldn't bank on using balloon terrakion to check Excadrill, but balloon terrakion is a great pokemon all on his own. If Gliscor switches in on the sword's dance, he's dead in two stone edges.

Also, I can't really say that I see the love for azu. Using good prediction to mold an ideal scenario will make any pokemon look good. Like cacturne for instance.

Azus niche has definitely gone down a bit since the departure of blaziken but it still effectively checks exca and is one of the few viable physical rain spammers. Increased rotomw and jelli usage dealt it a blow tho

 

[yee]

Azus niche has definitely gone down a bit since the departure of blaziken but it still effectively checks exca and is one of the few viable physical rain spammers. Increased rotomw and jelli usage dealt it a blow tho

Running toxic on it is almost required now IMO. Switch ins like those two because significantly easier to deal with after they've been hit with Toxic, especially Jellicent. A fast CB Tar is the only other easy way for Azumarill to gain anything from a Jellicent switch and for obvious reasons thats compromising.

 

[Charro]

Yo guys (specially the ones who likes underrated threats like me)
Have someone tested NP Azelf this gen?, I tried it last gen, and it was uber hard to pull off because Tyranitar, Heatran, Flygon, Rotom-A, Jirachi were common scarfers, without mentioning that CB Scizor and Blissey were everywhere
But now!, scarfers are not that common (there are, but no every team carries with one like in DPPt) and Tyranitar, Heatran, Jirachi are too busy being bulky to counter Azelf, let me explain, take this set

Azelf @ Life Orb
Timid 252 spA / 4 spD / 252 spe
NP
Psyshock
Flamethrower/ Fire Blast
Hp Fighting / Grass Knot

Grass Knot have little to no use actually just Quagsire

Here are some neat calcs

Hide

+2 Psyshock vs 252/252 def Bold Blissey = 94.3% - 111.1%
+2 Psyshock vs same spread Chansey = 69.9% - 82.4%
+2 Psyshock vs 4/0 Latios = 74.2% - 87.4%
+2 Psyshock vs 252/252 Relaxed Swampert = 71.3% - 83.9%
+2 Psyshock vs 252/252 bold Reuniclus = 39.4% - 46.5% (3HKO and it can't do much to you unless it runs shadow ball or trick room)

vat? psyshock hits the physical defense of its opponents? who cares!
+2 Flamethrower vs 252/0 Gliscor = 93.8% - 110.5%
+2 Flamethrower vs DD Scrafty = 85.3% - 100.7% (bulk up you say?, hp fighting OHKOes)
+2 Flamethrower vs 252/0 spD Hippowdon = 81.7% - 96.2%
vs 252/104 Hippo = 71.4% - 84%

So, Azelf can be a deadly late game sweeper with some support (spikes, killing prority users and common scarfers)
Yeah anything faster and with priority kills it, Excafuck too, but doesn't all that kill Thundurus too?, there's almost no difference, only Lanturn and spD Quagy can counter Thundurus, and only Latias (252 hp only), Cresselia and Deoxys-D can counter Azelf

I really want to test this bitch now because it failed me last gen, killing priority users and things like that is annoying yes, but I don't see how everyone is afraid of Thundurus when Azelf is not only faster but also have the same (and some more, but very uncommon) amount of counters '-'

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Yo guys (specially the ones who likes underrated threats like me)
Have someone tested NP Azelf this gen?, I tried it last gen, and it was uber hard to pull off because Tyranitar, Heatran, Flygon, Rotom-A, Jirachi were common scarfers, without mentioning that CB Scizor and Blissey were everywhere
But now!, scarfers are not that common (there are, but no every team carries with one like in DPPt) and Tyranitar, Heatran, Jirachi are too busy being bulky to counter Azelf, let me explain, take this set

Azelf @ Life Orb
Timid 252 spA / 4 spD / 252 spe
NP
Psyshock
Flamethrower/ Fire Blast
Hp Fighting / Grass Knot

Grass Knot have little to no use actually just Quagsire

Here are some neat calcs

Hide

+2 Psyshock vs 252/252 def Bold Blissey = 94.3% - 111.1%
+2 Psyshock vs same spread Chansey = 69.9% - 82.4%
+2 Psyshock vs 4/0 Latios = 74.2% - 87.4%
+2 Psyshock vs 252/252 Relaxed Swampert = 71.3% - 83.9%
+2 Psyshock vs 252/252 bold Reuniclus = 39.4% - 46.5% (3HKO and it can't do much to you unless it runs shadow ball or trick room)

vat? psyshock hits the physical defense of its opponents? who cares!
+2 Flamethrower vs 252/0 Gliscor = 93.8% - 110.5%
+2 Flamethrower vs DD Scrafty = 85.3% - 100.7% (bulk up you say?, hp fighting OHKOes)
+2 Flamethrower vs 252/0 spD Hippowdon = 81.7% - 96.2%
vs 252/104 Hippo = 71.4% - 84%

So, Azelf can be a deadly late game sweeper with some support (spikes, killing prority users and common scarfers)
Yeah anything faster and with priority kills it, Excafuck too, but doesn't all that kill Thundurus too?, there's almost no difference, only Lanturn and spD Quagy can counter Thundurus, and only Latias (252 hp only), Cresselia and Deoxys-D can counter Azelf

I really want to test this bitch now because it failed me last gen, killing priority users and things like that is annoying yes, but I don't see how everyone is afraid of Thundurus when Azelf is not only faster but also have the same (and some more, but very uncommon) amount of counters '-'

I can attest to Azelf's usefulness, being able to set up somewhat easily with it and demolishing threats such as Scizor and Tyranitar for my main sweepers. Considering Azelf is faster than Thundurus and is also able to OHKO Jirachi, it leaves teammates such as Latias or Kingdra a lot of room to breathe in OU.

Pairing Azelf with a dual screen user makes a sweep with it all the more easier. Using Magic Bounce Espeon is somewhat out of the question though, so a screener with different typing should be advised (suggestions would be nice as of now, since Espeon's the biggest thing going around).

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Alternatively you could go with Dual Screen Memento Uxie :3
Then typing isn't as big of an issue.