Metagame np: PU Stage 10 - A Better Place, A Better Tree - QUAGSIRE IS BANNED

i'm not letting a song by a band with that name be the np song galbia pls pick a different one -i've gotten away with something worse in the past B)

Well, it looks like we got one completely expected drop and one completely unexpected drop! The council originally wanted to suspect Muk immediately after the tier shift, but with the drop of a hard counter it obviously doesn't make sense to do so. Also, Musharna has dropped back into BL4 as it was banned waaaaaay back in October of 2014. Since the meta is completely different now, we may give it another shot in the future, but as of right now we have no plans of doing so. Have fun and enjoy the final drops of the generation!



ALSO WE HAVE A TREE!!!!
 
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pancake

movement and location
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One day after the terrible, terrible presidential election, I think it's fitting that we got a Pokemon unaware to all of this.



This thing is actually just the most healthy thing for the meta right now tbh. First, it aids stall in giving them an Unaware user, something that they have been lacking for the entirety of Generation 6. However, it does something much more than that.

INSANE ROLE COMPRESSION !_!

Here will be Quagsire's main two sets. The main good thing is that these sets both hard counter Muk + Probopass or Trapinch. And they don't seem to suck at first glance like our friend Marshtomp, either.

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb / Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Curse
- Recover
- Scald / Encore
- Earthquake

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Scald
- Toxic
- Recover
- Earthquake / Encore / Curse
s/o littlelucario

In fact, I think Water Absorb might just be the better ability for our friend Curse Quagsire here. It beats Muk with Curse even if it has Water Absorb, and Water Absorb lets it check threats such as Regice and Floatzel. In addition, it hard checks most of the Electrics in this tier and forces them to run HP Grass to beat it. If you aren't running Curse, you probably should have Unaware so you can beat Muk. It is a solid setup sweeper on stall, a solid part of the defensive core on balance, and some of the best role compression we have right now.

Really well timed drop for this meta. Good job NU, at least you guys proved you weren't another RU. Fuck Togetic lol
 
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Time to post some Quagsire counters!


Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Dragon Pulse / Toxic
- Heal Bell
- Roost

This beats all variants of Quagsire if you decide to run Toxic over Dragon Pulse as even +6 Waterfall doesn't 2HKO Altaria and Heal Bell allows you to cure Scald burns and stay in and take on opposing Toxic Quagsires.


+6 0 Atk Quagsire Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Altaria: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- 88.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery




Cryogonal @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Hidden Power Fighting

Cryogonal is also a mon that takes on Curse Quagsire being immune to Earthquake, pitiful damage from Scald and being able to OHKO with Freeze Dry. Just watch out for Waterfall variants if that becomes popular.




Grass types. Although these guys don't enjoy being burnt or poisoned, all of them to switch into Quagsire's STAB moves and threaten it back with their own 4x super effective STAB's respectively.
 
I've already done this once so lemme do this summarise what i said then rewrite it when i have the motivation
Combusken looks good
quagsire bringing back stall?
monferno hidden power grass lure looks ideal on life orb set, but you are losing priority or sd
WE GOT A TREE
 
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PTF

girl
is a Tiering Contributor
These are the final drops of this generation and we have two fantastic additions, Quagsire and Combusken. I'll shed some light on Combusken.

Combusken's access to its ability Speed Boost and high-Base Power STAB moves means this mon is a powerhouse against offensive and balanced teams. Its Fire + Fighting coverage allows it to deal with a great bulk of the tier including Rotom-F, Stoutland, Leafeon, Cacturne and Mawile. Combusken can also run both special and physical sets which makes it an unpredictable matchup.

The downfall of Combusken is that its base speed is slow and it can be outsped by prominent offensive mons at +1 including Floatzel, Jumpluff, Raichu, Zebstrika, Electrode, Scarf Leafeon, Scarf Mime, Scarf Chatot and Scarf Dodrio. It's poor bulk wihtout evio means that it can easily be killed by priority attacks specifically Aqua Jet. Although Combusken's STAB moves are of high Base Power, its low offensive stats can make it set up fodder for mons like Calm Mind Grumpig, Duosion and Dragon Dance Altaria.

These are the two most viable sets:
LO Special Combusken



Combusken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
- Protect
- Hidden Power Electric / Baton Pass
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 343-406 (106.1 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 179-212 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 439-523 (117.3 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 476-562 (142.5 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Probopass: 437-520 (134.8 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 192-227 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Eviolite Vibrava: 203-239 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 165-196 (47.9 - 56.9%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 304-359 (74.1 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 265-315 (67.4 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 218-257 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 160-188 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 207-243 (61 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Physical SD Combusken



Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Sky Uppercut
- Protect / Thunder Punch
252 Atk Combusken Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Combusken Sky Uppercut vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 304-360 (100 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 186-220 (44.9 - 53.1%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 158-188 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Metang: 198-234 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I would argue that the special set is Combusken's most viable. As a SD user, it faces competition from Monferno which is far superior. I was going to mention Chicken Pass but it's honestly not as viable as these two sets.

Speed Stats
229 / Combusken / 55 / +Spe / 252 / 0
343 / Combusken / 55 / +Spe / 252 / 1
458 / Combusken / 55 / +Spe / 252 / 2
572 / Combusken / 55 / +Spe / 252 / 3
687 / Combusken / 55 / +Spe / 252 / 4
801 / Combusken / 55 / +Spe / 252 / 5
916 / Combusken / 55 / +Spe / 252 / 6


At +1 it outspeeds unboosted mons with a base speed of 106 and under including Ursaring, Kadabra, the Simi trio, Dodrio and Leafeon. However it fails to outspeed unboosted mons like Jumpluff, Floatzel, Zebstrika, Electrode and Ninjask. It also fails to outspeed prominent scarfers like Rotom-F, Leafeon, Dodrio and Mime.

At +2 it outspeeds most of the tier except for Scarf Mime, Scarf Dodrio, Scarf Leafeon, Scarf Chatot, Scarf Floatzel and Scarf Simipour.

At +3 it outspeeds the whole tier.


Checks and Counters

The best mons to counter both sets of Combusken include:



Grumpig @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt

Pig can take every attack from each variants of Combusken with ease and can OHKO it in return with Psychic. Combusken can also act as set-up fodder for CM Pig.
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 87-104 (25.5 - 30.4%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Grumpig: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 254-300 (97.3 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Combusken: 380-450 (145.5 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO




Altaria @ Yache Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Roost

Altaria also takes every single attack from special/physical Combusken with ease whilst OHKO in return with Earthquake or using it as set up fodder.
252+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Combusken: 240-284 (91.9 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Combusken: 160-190 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 80-95 (26 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 92-109 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 23.3% chance to 3HKO

Other mons worth mentioning are AV Beheeyem, Duosion. Good mons that check/counter the physical variant of Combusken include Quagsire, Vullaby, Vibrava, Lumineon, Prinplup, Dusknoir, Stunfisk, Gabite, Rotom-S, Muk.​
 
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MANNAT

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Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Scald
- Toxic
- Recover
- Earthquake / Encore
I think curse is worth slashing here in the 4th slot since it lets you beat cm users 1v1 that would be a lot more annoying to deal with otherwise, and it provides a consistent win condition for stall, which is always nice.
 
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Stall had become usable in the last shift, but quagsire will probs make stall a playstyle that is relatively common and one that must be prepared for, which would probably mean a rise in more dedicated stallbreakers.
 
I feel that Simisage will increase in viability a lot if Quagsire becomes dominant on stall teams. Simisage
can run a life orb physically biased mixed set and destroy common cores OR use quagsire as sub nasty plot fodder.
Since simisage can run superpower, it can beat Audino as well. It also severely damages Probopass,too.
It can also use knock off on a predicted switch it.
 

MANNAT

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I believe that dedicated stallbreakers become a lot more needed with Quagsire's introduction into the metagame, giving stall a lot more flexibility with team slots, as it can check the entirety of the physically attacking metagame when combined with Tangela, meaning that stall teams will have 4 teamslots to dedicate to checks for special attackers and generally solid utility Pokemon. Below are a couple of stallbreakers that I believe will be quite effective in the future...
Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Scald
- Ice Beam

Simisage @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ice
I feel like all these elemental monkeys will see a spike in viability after this last tier shift since they can be very potent wallbreakers with the latest tier update, as there will be a lot more need for them, not to mention that both of them can break through Quagsire quite easily, unlike most of the setup sweepers in the tier, and they have a solid matchup vs Clefairy as well as a lot of other potent defensive Pokemon on stall teams. Obviously these two have their flaws, but they are both pretty potent vs defensive teams with their respetive sets and have the potential to be more than effective in their own right. You can obviousoly run timid on these guys if you want to be a bit better vs offensive teams, but I really like the power boost that you get from being Timid on these guys.
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Simipour Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 486-575 (118.5 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Simipour Scald vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 285-335 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Simipour Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regice: 333-393 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Simipour Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 458-541 (108.2 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
...Simisage has a similar damage output to Simipour, so its does about the same damage vs this stuff too
 
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inb4 Quagsire quick-rises back to OU
Ok seriously though we finally get an unaware user, for them bulky setup sweepers like clefairy/muk.

Quagsire and Gogoat look like they're going to be a nice combo considering Gogoat's main weaknesses are its low defenses and inability to touch grass-types. While Quagsire doesn't really do much against grass-types directly, they'll likely switch in unabated which gives you a shot to toxic/burn them, making them much easier to wear down for Gogoat (also Gogoat can sets up alongside SD Leafeon from experience, or defensive Tangelas if you're running substitute). You're going to need something for stuff like CB Stout/Dodrio (aka Mawile) as well as Freeze Dry (aka CroMuk/Audino), but its a solid starting point for a stall team (also I'm not sure if I have to mention this but Gogoat beats Quagsire).
Gogoat @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 232 HP / 48 Atk / 228 SpD
Careful Nature
- Horn Leech
- Earthquake
- Bulk Up
- Milk Drink / Substitute

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic



MixFerno could also be useful because it can put in work against Quag+Tangela cores, considering with LO and a non-hindering nature Grass Knot/Fire Blast/Close Combat covers most common stall teammates with SR on the field (minus stuff like CroMuk, Altaria and Vibrava).
MixFerno (Monferno) @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Close Combat
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- U-turn / Mach Punch

0 SpA Life Orb Monferno Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 348-411 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Life Orb Monferno Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 338-400 (101.1 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Monferno Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 118-140 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- 51.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Monferno Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 408-484 (99.5 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
hello I would like to talk about the ghost tree Trevenant

Trev is definitely one of the most interesting drops. It's been hard to find good sets for it since it seems to be somewhat outclassed in a lot of roles, however it is still decently threatening overall and has some unique niches. Here is what I think what can be the main sets for Trev:



Trevenant @ Choice Band
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Shadow Claw
- Earthquake
- Trick/Horn Leech/Rock Slide

CB Wood Hammer is the main move and is just ridiculously powerful for PU standards Shadow Claw is a fantastic STAB to hit grass resists like Gourgeist and Leafeon. Earthquake OHKOs all fire-types as well as Muk, although Shadow Claw already does a decent amount to them. Trick cripples Vullaby, and Horn Leech is a great move for dealing damage while also recovering health. The main problem with this set is it is mostly outclassed by CB Leafeon. There's not many reasons to use it over Leafeon on your team, and it is fairly slow and not too tough to revenge kill. Over Leafeon though it is much harder to switch into for poison and fire types, and having pseudo-status immunity, as well as the higher special bulk.

overall MoM rating: B-


Trevenant @ Life Orb / Colbur Berry / Yache Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Earthquake
- Shadow Claw/Wood Hammer
- Rock Slide/Will-O-Wisp

Offensive Trevenant does not have to run Choice Band of course though. You can run Life Orb too- I faced Machoker with it and it was really tough to play around. Yache can be definitely run to help with Floatzel, and Colbur can be run with Wisp to lure Dark-types.

overall MoM rating: B/B+


Trevenant @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Horn Leech
- Earthquake
- Shadow Claw

I tried out this set. It's a pretty decent late-game cleaner with its good combination of power and coverage. Trevenant can find opportunities to set up Trick Room because of Trev's good bulk, although it isn't easy either. Horn Leech is good with this set over Wood Hammer, because Wood Hammer just means you die to recoil after presumably taking a hit and then setting TR and Horn Leech means you can't stall out Trev's coverage using recoil and switching between moves. Only problem is it's not quite powerful enough sometimes. Trevenant should be able to clean lategame versus a decent amount of offensive teams using this.

Overall MoM rating: B



Trevenant @ Lum Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Horn Leech
- Earthquake
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest

This is my favorite Trev set that I've tried out so far. At first it looks pretty gimmicky, but it has a lot of things going for it in the PU metagame. Why use it over Roselia, or other special walls? Well, it's surprisingly tough to switch into, since Will-O-Wisp cripples a lot of pokemon like Leafeon, and Earthquake does massive damage to Fire-Types. It also deals with psychic-types like Mr.Mime and Grumpig a lot better than Rose.
And Lum Rest is actually really annoying to deal with, and that combined with Horn Leech makes it way easier to recover than you would think. Overall a solid threat that is hard to take out because of status resilience and bulk, but also not something that gives free switch-ins.

Replay vs ShuckleDeath stall: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-474736955

Overall MoM rating: B
 
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Ninetales is a mon that has been falling from grace slowly, but in this meta it probably has recieved a huge bump.
With the rise of bulky steel types like Metang and Bronzor in order not to auto lose vs CroMuk, Psychic-type stallbreakers (such as Nasty Plot Mr. Mime and SubCM Grumpig, which have been our main stallbreakers) haven't been as good as they were a few metas ago. Instead, Ninetales took their spot. SubNP Ninetales is able to just dick on stall that lack Grumpig/Altaria, even then, those are heavily pressured between rocks and pursuit support (come on, non-DP Ninetales has pursuit support like almost ever). It's ability to check Combusken and be a set up sweeper that beats Quagsire is nothing to laugh at. Overall, this guy has got significantly better this meta.




I know it's a bit (perhaps very) early to do this kind of thing but whatever. I want to start this argument by saying Carracosta isn't that broken alone: what really made it broken was its presence in the tier alongside Barbaracle, as they had very different checks, barring Kadabra and Poliwrath, the latter of which left us, which was the reason they were suspect after all. Defensive teams have got a very sturdy check to Costa in Quagsire, but it's manageable even without it: bulky steel and rock types such as defensive Mawile and Relicanth deal with non-Earthquake variants rather well, while bulky grasses cold stop non-Ice Beam variants.
For offensive teams, though, there has been a increase in popularity of Scarfed water resists, which is very bad for a mon who relies in a water-type move to deal with faster threats. Even the Best scarfer in the tier™ avoids the OHKO from Life Orb-boosted Aqua Jet at +2 after rocks, so that's great. Kadabra is always there as your everything check with the haxy encore and yellow magic. Overall, this thing isn't or doesn't look unhealthy or broken considering it's not alongside Barbaracle, so I think it could be retested.
 

Anty

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I know it's a bit (perhaps very) early to do this kind of thing but whatever. I want to start this argument by saying Carracosta isn't that broken alone: what really made it broken was its presence in the tier alongside Barbaracle, as they had very different checks, barring Kadabra and Poliwrath, the latter of which left us, which was the reason they were suspect after all. Defensive teams have got a very sturdy check to Costa in Quagsire, but it's manageable even without it: bulky steel and rock types such as defensive Mawile and Relicanth deal with non-Earthquake variants rather well, while bulky grasses cold stop non-Ice Beam variants.
For offensive teams, though, there has been a increase in popularity of Scarfed water resists, which is very bad for a mon who relies in a water-type move to deal with faster threats. Even the Best scarfer in the tier™ avoids the OHKO from Life Orb-boosted Aqua Jet at +2 after rocks, so that's great. Kadabra is always there as your everything check with the haxy encore and yellow magic. Overall, this thing isn't or doesn't look unhealthy or broken considering it's not alongside Barbaracle, so I think it could be retested.
I feel like you may have some misconceptions regarding the previous time Carracosta was here, as Carracosta would have almost certainly been banned even without Barbaracle (the other way is much more debatable though), as there weren't a healthy number of checks back then just like there aren't now. Its offensive checks are very minimal, pretty much limited to Kadabra, Floatzel and Scarf Leafeon (relying on Rotom is insane as it dies after 2 rounds of Srocks), as Jolly Costa can outspeed base 110's and most priorities do little damage if not already outprioritised by Aqua Jet. I don't know what other Scarf Water resists you are referring to, as Scarf Politoed isn't great and Scarf Sawsbuck/Simipour get a small fraction of the usage they did in the Carracosta meta. In fact a big reason why Carracosta was worse than Barbaracle, IMO, was that it did not care about bulky Grass-types (which were even more common back then), meaning you will often be stuck running one of a few bulky checks. The best defensive checks seem to be the bulky Rockers such as Mawile and Metang, along with Quagsire. Quagsire and Mawile seem to check it well (though keep in mind Mawile does very little damage in response so has to stay healthy), but stuff like Relicanth (as you mentioned) and Metang have to be decently healthy in order to live one (plus neither immediately KO back unless you're running GK Metang). Additionally, if you are running one of these but the Carracosta user has a different last move then you could be in a terrible position as it isn't easy running multiple solid Carracosta checks in one team factoring in both movesets.

Though that paragraph maybe assuming Carracosta has set up with enough HP to not die from a few LO hits, you have to consider this possibility, as it sets up on a large amount of Pokemon like Stoutland and Muk, and that isn't even with Memento support. Trying to build a team and play without the possibility of Costa getting an easy Smash is very difficult and unreliable, speaking from a lot of experience.

Lastly, you have to consider the overall impact of what the Pokemon would do to the metagame when resuspecting. For example, though it would check the best two Pokemon in the meta well, neither of those atm are getting obnoxious, and it also introduces a set up sweeper with few checks very late into the metagame's life. There are two reasons to re-suspect something, to improve the meta (which I don't think Carracosta does), or because it isn't broken (personally I believe Carracosta would still be broken, and I think it is too late to re-suspect on those grounds).
 
Waterfall>Scald on curse Quagsire definitely seems like the better option in my experience as it gives Quagsire a way to get past bulky flying types like Vullaby
+6 0 Atk Quagsire Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 174-205 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, though Pelipper remains unpassable and though the argument could be made that through burn damage one could ppl stall their way through one of those walls, i would counter that pp stalling also take a significant toll on Quagsire's own pp which could harm it's ability to pick of the rest of the opponents team.
 

ManOfMany

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is a Tiering Contributor
Waterfall>Scald on curse Quagsire definitely seems like the better option in my experience as it gives Quagsire a way to get past bulky flying types like Vullaby
+6 0 Atk Quagsire Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 174-205 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, though Pelipper remains unpassable and though the argument could be made that through burn damage one could ppl stall their way through one of those walls, i would counter that pp stalling also take a significant toll on Quagsire's own pp which could harm it's ability to pick of the rest of the opponents team.
I'm personally a fan of Earthquake, Curse, Toxic, Recover myself because Toxic beats or wears down almost everything that likes to switch into Earthquake. Meanwhile almost everything that can take a Toxic is a steel that's hit hard by Earthquake or a Magic Guard user that is beaten by Quag. The exceptions of course are Altaria and Bronzor
 
hello! So basically, I decided to give the quagsire meta a chance, it shouldn't have been too bad considering that its a slow pokemon that loses teams lots of momentum but; after playing and building for this meta a lot in the last few weeks, I have definitely seen a detrimental amount of centralisation in the tier. This post will basically outline why I think (and many other relevant pu players think) that quagsire is broken, and should at the very least be suspect tested.

1.) It allows and encourages extremely passive pokemon in the PU tier.
This point has been made extremely apparent to me even in the short time quagsire has been in the tier. It allows for the viability of extremely passive pokemon, such as bronzor, clefairy, avalugg, altaria and vullaby, to really take over. The reason why is that, suddenly, there is no trade off to just click roost or recovery. In the previous meta, you knew every recovery meant the possibility a pokemon could set up on you, such as sd monferno, curse muk, np mr.mime or calm mind grumpig for a few examples. But now, click roost and spamming attacks that do set damage (such as seismic toss and psywave) are the way to go in this meta it seems. This is because you can always fall back on quagsire to just ignore any stat boosts that your opponent has earnt. This feature of the meta lends it self towards being heavily stall and balance oriented. Why? This is because, suddenly if your pokemon aren't carrying rest or some form of reliable recovery, the stall or balance team will continue to pivot around any settup you use. You will be taking rocks damage (due to the poor nature of hazards control in pu), damage from set hp attacks such as stoss and psywave. This feature of the meta, where you can run 6 pokemon with recovery and high bulk hugely centralise the meta around obscure lures and stall teams. If you are running an offense team in this meta that is likely to be without recovery, you will be at a huge disadvantage at matchup. Quagsire completely removes any element of offensive pressure meaning offense is practically impossible without running 2-3 obscure lures at the very minimum.

2.) complete inadequacy of checks in PU.
Quagsire has one weakness, which is fine. But PU itself is in lack of grass type pokemon that can take full advantage of this weakness. Leafeon, Cacturne and Simisage are the only ones that come to mind as offensively viable and threatening, 2 of which don't run reliable recovery, and the one that does can be scald burned on the switchin, making it essentially useless outside of heal bell support. PU simply doesn't have the neccesary materials to pressure this pokemon effectively, leading to everyone centralising their builds around this one pokemon. Suddenly, all fillers won't be based on what the team needs to run for its own wincondition or maybe another weakness. Any pokemon that can run a hidden power, run hidden power grass. Any pokemon that can learn a grass type attack, even though it doesnt neccesarily give optimal coverage, runs that attack (ursaring stands out as an example). Playing in a meta where you are forced into running really obscure and niche lures isn't fun, especially from a teambuilding perspective. Suddenly you need 2-3 pokemon to take on 1 archetype. Having the likes of Nasty Plot Beheeyem or Nasty Plot Mr. Mime isn't gonna cut the mustard on its own, so you have to run multiple stallbreakers. When you are forced into running multiple stallbreakers, you generally can't build a team that checks all the pokemon in the meta. The element of team matchup in games is hugely amplified, and not a true representation of whos better. Teams become suddenly become a seesaw, the more you prepare for stall, the better or more easier you can win, but it means for a worse matchup vs offense. Balancing both of these matchups used to be quite elaborate pre-quagsire, running a stallbreaker was seen as a bold maneoveur staged by one of the opponents to try and get a better matchup vs balance. However, it is now completely neccesary to run stallbreakers as well as several quagsire checks (now seen in the form of toxic pokemon, which can be shrugged off with appropriate support).

3.) the centralisation.
I have kinda mentioned this both in the above paragraphs; but quagsire literally means your settup pokemon are useless unless they have a mechanism to get past quagsire. I've seen monferno and pawniard run grass knot, ursaring run seed bomb despite having worse statistical coverage than other moves and now nasty plot beheeyems adopt setting up because they are one of the rare pokemon that can actually 2hko it. Tough luck if you are running bulky beheeyem or even life orb np mr mime and they run special defense investment. It massive all around bulk literally means it can check 70-80% of the meta in one pokemon. Marowak is now used to break stall and balance, because other pokemon with settup simply cannot 2hko quag pre-boost. It centralises the meta hugely around it that no other pokemon currently can.

tl;dr; it makes stall godly, makes team matchup more of a problem, we havent got enough good offensive checks, it forces everyone to either run stupid lures or stupidly powerful wallbreakers and therefore is broken. I sincerely hope the council takes this into consideration because we have LTPL going on, and with quagsire here, its gonna be a clusterfuck of stall and people running anti-stall, with not neccesarily the best player winning.
 
hi, today im going to CONTRIBUTE (yes, im a very good user)! i would like to build onto HJAD's above post and support a quagsire suspect. to begin with, im going to go ahead and share my infamous stall team, featuring quagsire. i present to you...

Super Duper Fun Quagsire Stall!!!!

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Psywave
- Toxic
- Rest

Muk @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Poison Jab
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Audino @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Encore

Avalugg @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Avalanche
- Roar
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Roost
- Heal Bell

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Curse
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Recover

so im not gonna really go in depth too much on how to use this team, but the thing that has always troubled stall teams have been setup sweepers, namely things like SD monferno, SD pawniard, and NP beheeyem. what quagsire does is basically nullify these threats, and with just a little support in maybe a toxic absorber and checks to breakers that beat it (really not hard), quagsire makes stall broken. to clarify, i do not think quagsire alone is broken, because it really isn't. you could easily make the case that "oh you just need toxic to beat it" or "oh just bring a grass type", but this really isnt the case, as any decent stall team, such as this one, has easy ways to support it for these weaknesses. imma stop typing because HJAD really covered mostly everything that needed to be said, but i wanted to contribute this team that for you all to use and experience quag at its best for yourself (for the record i dont think this team has lost once in tournament play, and its pretty well-known).

here's a few replays showcasing how dumb stall is with quag:
 
Ok so this Quagsire thing has been hanging around for a while now and the council is pretty divided about it too, even if it doesn't look like it because nobody bothered to post a contradictory to the above posts which i will try to do, at least partially, with this post.

1. What is happening / Why "nothing" is happening / WTF ARE U WAITING 4 GALBIA!!?!!?

PU Tiering has officially ended with the latest tier shift and SM OU has gotten out of BETA on PS a few days ago so it is obvious the interest in the tier has decreased heavily, can't blame nobody about that, even thought a few tournaments are still being played (LTPL and Seasonal Playoff which ended just yesterday if I'm not mistaken). We really are in no rush to make the final adjustments to the tier since PU is going to stay like this until the SM tier gets released in quite a few months (you should stay tuned tho since Magnemite wanted to get out a list of something playable some time in the future) and the really small poll of interesting games in which both sides tried to use "current" teams really has made the decision to start a serious discussion has been hard. Quagsire is not the kind of Pokemon that you consider broken traditionally since it doesn't have the sweeping potential of a Vigoroth or a Tauros nor the fat stats all around of a Musharna and a closer look is needed to really make sense of its impact on the tier, thank got at least dundies post makes that clear if it wasn't clear enough.
Me and a few other council members argue that some time is still needed to make this decision (since it is quite noticeable the fact that if something does get suspected it is some times assumed it deserves to get banned, and even pro ban people on the council agree on that) and that the impact on the tier of this Pokemon isn't as big as you might believe.

2. Trying to refute these arguments above at least partially because i do not want another Carracosta / Barbaracle level of misinformation part

a) HJAD's argument
Premise: I have already spoken to him in private (im sorry) jsyk the council (which is ME when something bad happens and everybody in it when something negative happens) addressed the concerns in some way even if nobody from any of the two sides has posted about it.

1.) Quagsire allows and encourages extremely passive pokemon in the PU tier.
Not going to go in detail since most of what is said here is quite superficial since most of the Pokemon he mentions have been very popular in the tier at one time or another and i don't really see how this is anything but a paragraph complaining about stall in PU so i am essentially going to treat it at such.
Me and some other councilmen believe that the shown effectiveness of stall in the current two tournaments is due to the fact that this Quagsire metagame has been very undeveloped due to the low activity and, even then, the sample size of games is really too small to use it as a case for or against Quagsire's presence in the tier. There is also a lot of evidence of stall teams or semi-stall teams being very effective in PU tournaments that could check most things without Quagsire, especially if you look at past seasonals, since it is a teamstyle that is very easy to win with if you get a good matchup. This is all made worse by the fact that most successful PU teams in the past metagames have only really used a small Poll of Pokemon (Monferno has almost 40% (sic) usage in seasonal and other Quagsire-weak Pokemon such as Floatzel, Golem, Zebstrika, Mawile are all in the top 6-7 Pokemon) that, with their most common set (which might not be the best one right now!!), are easily covered by Quagsire + a generic special or physical wall.

2.) complete inadequacy of checks in PU.
I don't see this argument as very well constructed since it repeats a lot of the stuff from the one above and even contradicts itself with the following one in some parts but i think we can all agree Quagsire, by itself, is not unbeatable. In addition to the Grass-types you mentioned the fact that Roselia essentially comes in scot free to set up hazards (not the easiest thing to remove in PU) and that Trick/Taunt and Toxic are viable options on many sets of the Pokemon Quagsire supposedly checked even before its advent on the tier (think about defensive Grumpig, Floatzel, Golem) make the "overused PU" metagame relatively able to handle Quagsire decently. The fact that most proper physical wallbreakers and special attackers do break it, that it is grounded and prone to all hazards, and also that Energy Ball / Grass Knot / HP Grass is heavily distributed among other "walled" threats do not make it too hard to lure if you want to. If you want me to be more in depth about this i can but not on this post.

3.) the centralisation.
I responded to most of what is argued here in the two paragraphs above but i will repeat myself if needed.
quagsire literally means your settup pokemon are useless unless they have a mechanism to get past quagsire.
this is equal to saying "X is unbreakable by Y unless Y has a way of getting past X" which is a tautology used to reinforce your argument which i don't consider very cool :(.
Speaking about the use of Pokemon not previously common to break it since they are effective sounds honestly nice to me since i believe that having more diversity is great in my opinion and
It centralises the meta hugely around it that no other pokemon currently can.
is another retorical device that can be applied to many other Pokemon since there is at least 3-4 other Pokemon that heavily influence the metagame and haven't been banned now.


b) Dundies' argument
I have already answered to the whole "it beats those common Pokemon if it has enough support so you have to use uncommon Pokemon" part in one way or another so i am going to skip to the replays (i am assuming these are about Quagsire being broken and not just a "how good is my team" showcase).

-1 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-487745847
This one looks lame before even starting. The left side has a team with literally one Pokemon able to beat Quagsire against one player that has used it about 100x times during the Tournament. The best part is that a 5 Pokemon team without Quagsire would have won regardless this time around.
★The50mph: sucks to lose to broken stall :/
★Dundies: sorry
★Dundies: blame galbia
+False偽: sucks to prep badly for stall
★Dundies: for not banning

You're welcome


-2 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-483907834
Waste of my time since the team on the right side can't touch Bronzor at all.
Also proof that the opponent is pretty stubborn if anything
★Anty:sorry for that

No need to apologize for me.


-3 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-pu-217522
Idk i see a random Flareon on spikes balance without a Rapid Spin blocker, Bronzor is busted

Sorry for the lack of depth but i really don't see the impact of Quagsire from these replays and he theorical proof has been lacking.

Inviting Anty Teddeh False Magnemite 2xTheTap RawMelon Grim Megazard to contribute of course as well as anybody with good arguments
 
Without writing too much, because a lot has already been said.
I think that quag on its own is not broken at all. As explained, the amount of coverage options that people are just ignoring because they are either using teams that are old or ignoring the fact that quag is very limited in what sets it can run. Unaware + curse is very good when facing setup sweepers such as duosion / clef / bouff / pawniard, but it's literally the only thing going for quag.
The weaknesses it has - such as grass types (leafeon, roselia, servine, quiladin) or just grass coverage such as hp grass on zeb / floatzel (which really aren't bad options at all) make it very easy to lure. But the biggest thing is its vulnerability to toxic / status. It has a huge number of checks such as altaria / lumineon / prinplup / bronzor - plus literally anything that can carry toxic. It means that quag needs heavy support and there are many ways around beating it.
Without looking at what it does just as a physical wall - it can also beat things such as weak boosters who have special attacks - namely false mentioned duosion + clef. Well without being too obvious about this - both mons have coverage options available whereby they could EASILY beat quag if they chose to run a different coverage option available to beat quag. I'm not talking specifically energy ball / grass knot (which could also hit golem), but also cm + toxic being an option. It's not hard to think of things.

As for response - I believe that, unlike previous times, the only time people will be playing PU now is to prepare for LTPL, which half the time teams have been recycling old teams from PU open (Namely Blunder using my team that i built near enough 5 months ago - how the fuck did he even get it i don't know) in the first weeks of pu open and in general teams being lazy with their builds. Secondly, because there is a massive lack of people playing PU right now, the adaption to quag has been more than slow - hence teams who have developed faster than others (namely kinglax's in pupl with me and hjad, or dundies' stall team as he was prepping and building for pu ssnl) - the teams that have adapted faster have better results. I think it just takes longer for others to adapt because there are less tournaments, less opportunities to play pu competitively, less adaption.

Hence this leads me to the conclusion that because of people adapting very slowly - I think we definitely need more time to even consider the proposal of a quag suspect because it on its own is very beatable. Also - when something goes up on the suspect block - it is more than often considered broken - hence would be likely banned, hence I would want to avoid this unless I was genuinely divided 50/50, however from playing and adapting myself, i am 100% convinced that quag is not broken and deserves to stay in PU.

tl;dr quag is not broken, it has plenty of checks, answers and ways to beat it, adaption has been incredibly slow because dead tier and only 1 pu tour left, once it goes up on the suspect block people will perceive it as broken before having time to get a full idea of how it is in pu fully. Hence wait longer to adapt more - ideally maybe another 2-3 weeks.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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Ok, I'll bite. A lot of the stuff you've brought up is true, but some of it probably needs to be responded to. I understand the mindset of waiting because nothing is going to change, especially since we're not going to finish a suspect either way until the majority of LTPL is over, but while we're waiting to get rid of quagsire (or keep it (puke)) I don't agree with some of the arguments

I think the response to how good stall is (it's matchup based+ppl arent preparing+ppl use the same 6-7 mons that happen to lose to quagsire) is wholly inadequate. Sure, I absolutely don't deny stall is very powerful in matchup and it looks a lot worse to see the50mph have zero chance before the game's started than it might actually be if you dont think about how he didn't prep or whatever. But the idea that nobody is prepping and this is unfair to stall isn't one that I understand. Stall is still a pretty unhealthy matchup to have to deal with even if you do have the foresight to actually prepare a team that doesn't get boned by it. It's not really as simple as prep slightly for stall and it's not a huge threat, that used to be how it worked but no longer. When you say quagsire beats that one basket of mons that everyone uses, I see that as it beats a large percentage of the best stuff in the tier which severely limits your options on how to handle it. You've brought up rose spikes as an example of how to prep better for quag stall many times. I had tried making rose spikes earlier for just that reason, and I found out 2 things. First off it's pretty good vs quag stall. Second off roselia just really kinda sucks right now and leaves you a lot worse off versus offense.

There's lots of other mons that can break through quagsire for sure, that was just one example, and some of the mons actually do perform very well vs stall despite the fact that quag has 5 teammates to beat whatever random mon you gave grass coverage to. I'm sure people could adapt better to quag stall, but is this something you want to force the tier through? Because from what I've been seeing/testing with, it's not a good meta shift that makes the tier more open. It's a bad one that heavily restricts you and makes matchup a lot more crucial. That's not something very easy to demonstrate, but I think you described one of the best ways to get around at it. Most of the good shit in the tier absolutely hates quag, so you have a metagame where you're pulling up all this mediocre to bad stuff to handle it which doesn't help all that much versus a good team without quag. Not in every case for sure, but the amount of things that are consistently good vs quag stall and good as a whole are limited and these limits on building in a meta already saturated with threats is a significant strain. You need to have 3 mons on your team capable of hitting quag and 2 of those have to be safe switchins, ideally to scald, to not run into problems with team support. When you consider how many top things absolutely hate quag or hate the changes to their moveset this forces on them, that has become annoying for the meta to deal with so far. Not to mention, we're just talking about killing quag. Not the other 5 things on stall. All of which want to come in to wall ur HP grass mon of choice, and all of which significantly benefit from the way quagsire has made a lot of setup sweepers a lot worse.

Previously stall wasn't so scary because of how badly things like NP Mime hurt it, now you have to beat quag with really strong hitters (mostly CB/specs things if not SE coverage) rather than setup sweepers and that hurts you vs the rest of stall. And maybe people can adapt and start slapping HP grass on more things, but for now it's hard to say that quag isn't an incredibly limiting mon based off of what you can and cannot run simply because it's in the tier.

And I'm sure people who dont want to ban quag just read that as "blah blah blah he can't adapt or run new shit" because of the way I went about explaining it, so tldr quag stall is very hard to beat and puts restrictions on builds in a meta where you already just couldn't account for everything so just because 1/4 of the mons in the tier can run toxic or hp grass for quagsire or because it itself isn't the strongest sweeper around doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt the tier.

Now I was fine with waiting to look at the meta a bit because there's definitely a chance that we do find some incredible ways to beat quag stall and still have just enough space to prep for everything else. Nothing I've seen in the over a month quag has been around has suggested this, but sure that's not impossible. Just pretty unlikely that we all wake up one day and realize beating stall and not fucking yourself over vs everything else is as easy as doing xyz changes. And with that in mind I absolutely hate the mindset in this post.
Without writing too much, because a lot has already been said.
I think that quag on its own is not broken at all. As explained, the amount of coverage options that people are just ignoring because they are either using teams that are old or ignoring the fact that quag is very limited in what sets it can run. Unaware + curse is very good when facing setup sweepers such as duosion / clef / bouff / pawniard, but it's literally the only thing going for quag.
Quagsire itself the pokemon is not the issue. What it provides to stall teams and how it hurts so many mons in the metagame is. Unaware+Curse might be all it has going for it (yes that is most of what it has going for it although as we branch out and find new ways to break quag like you and galbia predict I dont see why it can't start finding new sets too), but why does it need to have anything else going when it's how it changes the meta that's important.
The weaknesses it has - such as grass types (leafeon, roselia, servine, quiladin) or just grass coverage such as hp grass on zeb / floatzel (which really aren't bad options at all) make it very easy to lure. But the biggest thing is its vulnerability to toxic / status. It has a huge number of checks such as altaria / lumineon / prinplup / bronzor - plus literally anything that can carry toxic. It means that quag needs heavy support and there are many ways around beating it.
Do prinplup/bronzor beat it without carrying toxic? I'm p sure Prinplup would just get set up on and yeah zor can PP stall I guess assuming they never start running waterfall but that's not really ideal. Anyway, the hey look it's 4x weak to grass argument is one that we've already had to respond to multiple times because it's the first thing pretty much anybody says about this mon. Hey look just lure it with random grass shit. In practice I don't think it's proved to be quite that easy because with or without random grass coverage on, idk floatzel, quagsire is still going to do its job of shutting down boosting Monferno, Muk, Pawniard, Mawile, Bouffalant, Drifblim, physical huntail, etc. And yes, I do think the hurt it puts onto SD sweepers has a significant impact on the metagame. This didn't have to be a negative impact, I'm not saying all change is bad, but in this case I think it is for all the reasons pro-ban people have previously stated + the above portion of this post. Quag might have a good amount of checks, but it also has a good amount of top mons checked by it, and that's huge.
(oh and also toxic weak isn't the end of the world when stall has a reliable heal bell user, it helps but it's not like one toxic and you've invalidated its usefulness)

Without looking at what it does just as a physical wall - it can also beat things such as weak boosters who have special attacks - namely false mentioned duosion + clef. Well without being too obvious about this - both mons have coverage options available whereby they could EASILY beat quag if they chose to run a different coverage option available to beat quag. I'm not talking specifically energy ball / grass knot (which could also hit golem), but also cm + toxic being an option. It's not hard to think of things.
Actually I think it is hard to think of things for some mons. Sure, you can pick the ones that can learn energy ball and only have a moderate opportunity cost from losing out on hugely important moves in twave/knock/encore and acid armor/HP fighting/signal beam, but I can just go back over to the list o' things that dont have convenient grass coverage like Bouffalant or whatever (unrelated but taunt toxic comeback pls).
As for response - I believe that, unlike previous times, the only time people will be playing PU now is to prepare for LTPL, which half the time teams have been recycling old teams from PU open (Namely Blunder using my team that i built near enough 5 months ago - how the fuck did he even get it i don't know) in the first weeks of pu open and in general teams being lazy with their builds. Secondly, because there is a massive lack of people playing PU right now, the adaption to quag has been more than slow - hence teams who have developed faster than others (namely kinglax's in pupl with me and hjad, or dundies' stall team as he was prepping and building for pu ssnl) - the teams that have adapted faster have better results. I think it just takes longer for others to adapt because there are less tournaments, less opportunities to play pu competitively, less adaption.
There's less competitive play with updated teams but there is still some competitive play with updated teams and when a large amount of people engaging in said competitive play have pointed out an issue for said competitive play why would we not pay attention to the warning signs at least a little bit because "there's not enough serious people"
Hence this leads me to the conclusion that because of people adapting very slowly - I think we definitely need more time to even consider the proposal of a quag suspect because it on its own is very beatable. Also - when something goes up on the suspect block - it is more than often considered broken - hence would be likely banned, hence I would want to avoid this unless I was genuinely divided 50/50, however from playing and adapting myself, i am 100% convinced that quag is not broken and deserves to stay in PU.
When I said I hate the mindset in this post, this is the part. "We need more time to see all the facts but I'm convinced it's 100% not broken so I won't change how I'd vote anyway"????? Regardless of who time and adaptation proves wrong there's no way you should be able to justify these two statements together. Also we've had over a month, multiple tournaments, plenty of good players coming forward about this, how is that not enough to "consider the proposal" even if we don't actually do anything? This part might've just been poorly phrased though, because literally all hjad's/dundies's/galbia's/your/my posts are doing is considering the proposal.
tl;dr quag is not broken, it has plenty of checks, answers and ways to beat it, adaption has been incredibly slow because dead tier and only 1 pu tour left, once it goes up on the suspect block people will perceive it as broken before having time to get a full idea of how it is in pu fully. Hence wait longer to adapt more - ideally maybe another 2-3 weeks.
And ultimately this is coming down to "there are lots of ways to beat quag". And I understand, it's far easier to think about that than make a completely subjective judgement on whether or not quag is "unhealthy". And any time a mon is being banned because it's "unhealthy" and not broken it's a lot more contentious because of how subjective that is and I can understand if you see that side and then decide nope, quag's still fine for the tier to handle. But I think you've simultaneously overrated how easy it is for a team to deal with combined with how restrictive it is to need to deal with quagsire.

And for the record I've been sorta high on painkillers while doing this, not using that as an excuse to not take what I'm saying seriously but if there's anything that looks disastrously wrong just let me know and I might've really overrated how I think about some topic or another. The main point all looks fine though
 
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Anty

let's drop
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Megazard bought up good points about Quagsire and stall, so this post is more about the general health of the metagame.

I think the anti-suspects posts above have been focussing on more the Pokemon itself than the issue with the tier right now (maybe because they were replying to other posts idk). Also, I think they are more focussed on 'people not preparing' and ignoring that Quagsire is very difficult to prepare for without sacrificing too much. Running something like NP Raichu or Ninetales might be able to break Dundies stall, but that is not the only defensive team, and other teams can run checks for those heavy stallbreakers (Roselia/Grumpig/etc - we aren't short on checks for some of the suggested breakers), and if your opp may have a slight stall variation the game can become extremely difficult to win. This creates a matchup problem which plenty of players believe is just 'bad teambuilding'. Running several stallbreakers makes you weaker to offense but not running enough (or correct) stallbreakers means you just lose to some defensive teams (and become weaker vs defensive playstyles). In the seasonal final game 1 the50mph, prepares well for stall running Specs Camerupt and LO Murkrow (as just running Camerupt might not be enough if Dundies decides to change the team up a bit), but Dundies pulls out a offensive balance team with Rotom-Fan which the50mph could not handle. G2 of that series involves the50mph using a lure to bait in Quagsire which just doesn't work. I know there is bound to be matchup issues in any metagame, but right now its just absurd due to Quagsire and its ability to take on plenty of set up sweepers which would otherwise keep defensive playstyles in check (from Pawniard to Monferno to CM/Flame Clef). Stuff like Specs Camel and Spikes stack may seem to trash over any stall, but there isn't many mons that can do that and they cannot fit in every team.

I don't know how people expect the meta to develop without it ending up like the Machoke meta. Players may run better wallbreakers, but defensive playstyles can still adapt and games can be decided from team previews despite both teams being good, which is not a healthy metagame.

Lastly, though most suspects do end up in bans (disregarding that the suspects are likely broken), I don't think that is a fair reason to prolong a suspect till some of the very anti-ban users are neutral/proban, as right now most people seem to want a suspect (just looking at the PS poll). I know there are legit reasons to wait for a suspect, but keep in mind we would want time for a potential non-quag meta to develop as well.
 

false

maybe this is heaven
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This post is pretty bad and doesn't really say anything new so I'll remedy that by putting some nice music here.
"You're better off without me"
- Quagsire

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Quag is not broken, it has plenty of checks, answers and ways to beat it
I wanted to address this point because I've seen it expressed a few times now and I think it completely misses the mark when it comes to whether or not Quagsire is truly suspectworthy. I believe sentiments like these that try to argue that Quagsire is not broken and therefore not suspect worthy are entirely irrelevant and don't actually address the issues that Quagsire's presence creates. As far as I'm concerned (and I assume this is the same viewpoint held by other pro-suspect users such as Anty and Dundies) the pro-suspect argument doesn't argue that Quagsire is a broken Pokemon, in fact it doesn't even matter if Quagsire is broken or not. The pro-suspect argument states that Quagsire's presence alone creates a metagame imbalance, heavily centralising the metagame around a few distinct styles. A metagame centralised to this degree isn't healthy and doesn't allow for there to be as much diversity in the tier, creating a stale metagame where one is either taking advantage of the unhealthy element, or constructing teams with the specific goal of defeating a team utilising it. In my personal opinion, Quagsire is not broken, however the opportunity cost that comes with using Quagsire, especially on defensive builds, is next to nothing, whilst on the other side, the opportunity cost of focusing to defeat Quagsire-centred builds is much higher because if you prep for it and then face anything but Quagsire stall your team is already at a disadvantage due to the fact that you've prepared heavily for a Pokemon that you're not facing.
People are adapting very slowly so we should wait longer so that everyone adapts to the new tier
Next I'd like to address the sentiment because it just doesn't make any sense to me. If tier development is slow, what will waiting 2 weeks do to change that? Quagsire's effect on the tier doesn't take a month to comprehend. Quagsire's effect on the tier is plain to see right as we speak. One argument I've seen states that the reason people think Quagsire is broken is because they're only recycling old teams, teams that lose to Quagsire because the teams were built before Quagsire was to be accounted for. If that was the case, why do 5 of the 8 active PU council members (along with other accomplished and notable players like Dundies and HJAD) want Quagsire to be suspect tested? None of theses users are recycling old teams, they are in fact stating that the current metagame in which they're having to build for is one that is unhealthy. Why is this being disregarded? Not to mention the fact that no amount of metagame progression will remedy the fact that Quagsire still centralises the tier.
half the time teams have been recycling old teams from PU open (Namely Blunder using my team that i built near enough 5 months ago - how the fuck did he even get it i don't know) in the first weeks of pu open and in general teams being lazy with their builds.
This was one of the most confusing points that I read, and it really stuck out to me. Why is this relevant at all? In essence you're stating that blunder (or anyone else for that matter) would be moved to vote ban after seeing that a pre-drops team has a bad matchup vs Quagsire. I don't know anyone who has told me the reason Quagsire is broken is because it beats pre-drops teams, so I don't understand why a point like this would even be mentionworthy. The pro-suspect argument states that Quagsire's presence creates an unhealthy and centralised metagame. Nobody is arguing that their pre drops team can't beat Quagsire and therefore it should be banned.
 
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