Metagame NP: PU Stage 3- Monster House (mid-December Tier Shift)

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Specs

Lost In The World
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I’m surprised to see that Arctovish or the other Hail abusers aren’t on here, will they be looked at some time in the future?
Vanilluxe will most likely become better as a result of these bans, which means Arctovish will get more usage. There are still water immunes like Vaporeon running around so we haven't found it to be too much of an issue as of writing this. However we're gonna keep a close eye on it because it could get ridiculous at some point if say meta trends make said water immunes less viable or splashable
 

ManOfMany

Formerly Many
is a Tiering Contributor
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https://pokepast.es/a4c53a6b5d1a02aa

I wanted to show off this new team I built based around Bulk Up Talonflame. It's a set that used to be quite good in older generations, and I think it has a lot of potential here too. Now it feels like with the bans that the meta has calmed down a bit and it's easier make more use of long-term game strategies like this rather than just clicking buttons. BU Talon has some hard counters (Gigalith for example) but it pairs very well with mons that destroy these counters and can be a real threat to weakened teams. Clawitzer is a really fun breaker that absolutely roasts slower Rock types and forces Water-types like Vaporeon and Lanturn in to pressure them really hard. Rotom is a neat utility mon that provides a pivoter and spreads status to bulkier mons that annoy Talon- be careful not to overestimate it though as its natural power and bulk is really poor. Sandaconda was my bulky Rocks setter of choice mainly cause I liked its access to Glare, but you can honestly go any of the usual picks here. Palossand, Stunfisk, they all work the main goal is just to be your physdef wall. I also wanted to use a real special tank that was plenty strong offensively so I started searching for an AV mon like I would use in older generations. Eventually I settled on AV Scrafty and I'm very happy with this choice. With Shed Skin, Scrafty is way more status resilient than your typical AV user and its already great special bulk is boosted to obscene levels. Use Scrafty to spread Knock on the opposing team, removing Boots and tanking hits from opposing Roserade, Heliolisk, etc. My final pokemon is Scarf Roserade, the cleaner because Talonflame was not enough for speed control. Roserade gives me a way to beat those passive bulky water types and just generally has a good amount of power and speed. Enjoy!
 
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I want to briefly talk about a Pokemon who hasn't been discussed too much here (and listed as LC Uber on Showdown).



Sneasel went under the radar when it dropped with now-banned mons like Exploud, Machamp, and others. However, this thing is devastating because STAB Knock Off hits like a truck as it always has, but it also gained access to Triple Axel. Additionally, Sneasel sits at the 115 Speed tier, outspeeding mons like Archeops, Virizion, Charizard, and Heliolisk. Moreover, STAB Dark + Ice is near impeccable type coverage. Overall, it's a powerful wallbreaker that also serves as speed control. You could even run a Swords Dance set, but I believe Choice Band is significantly better.

Here are some calcs showcasing Sneasel's power:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 366-438 (102.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Runerigus: 270-324 (84.3 - 101.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sandaconda: 294-348 (84.4 - 100%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- approx. 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Vaporeon: 289-342 (62.2 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 130-154 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

LordST

Dormi Bene Duce
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Hello PU Friends, today I would like to go over everything currently in the tier that I think is already outright broken or has the potential to be.

:ss/roserade:
Imo Roserade is the best pokemon in the current meta and also the most broken. The combination of its great speed tier, access to Spikes/Tspikes and Sleep, insanely high SpA, and solid defensive typing make this an absolute pain to play against. The counterplay in our tier is extremely limited, as very little can comfortably switch in to the combination of Leaf Storm and Sludge Bomb, and the few that can are compromised by a Sludge poison. The only mons that can come in on Rose's STABs are just about limited to Steels and Poisons, but many fear eating a sleep or get Spiked on for free. Only Golbat has reliable recovery out of these, so being able to continually come in long term with steels and poisons is near impossible. Its diversity in sets makes checking Rose even more of a struggle. Between Eject Pack, Specs, Scarf, and Standard Offensive the correct play could be different every game to try and check it and trying decipher what set it might be at preview isn't really possible. In that way Rose feels similar to the recently banned Duraludon, which only really had checks in steel types which could be easily abused with some set diversity. With all this in mind Roserade is too much of an oppressive force in the metagame and I believe should be banned.

:ss/virizion:
Virizion is an absolute beast. What if you took Roserade and instead of sleep and Spikes we gave it an even better speed tier, better offensive typing, and all the coverage it needs? Broken is what you would get. Where to even start with this thing? It has so many usable sets and each one has very different checks (or no checks at all lmao). SD 3 Atks absolutely rips through any team that doesn't have a Weezing and has no shortage of opportunities to set up. Mixed LO can easily nuke the aforementioned Weezing with high powered Leaf Storms while still maintaining the ability to rip through the rest of balance cores. Synthesis can be added to either of these sets to increase longevity and keep Virizion out of priority range. Taunt can be used to turn Virizion into a deadly stallbreaker. This thing is just too much for the tier. Revenging killing with something faster is just about the only way to deal with Virizion reliably, but it very often gets to do a lot of damage before hand. Virizion is not quite as broken as Rose is, but imo such a versatile wallbreaker with this kind of speed tier is too much for PU.

:ss/archeops:
Flying types in general are very powerful this meta, but Archeops is a bit of a cut above the rest. Sky high attack, pun intended, combined with EdgeQuake to hit basically everything at the speed tier it sits at is such an immense threat. In the past Archeops could be limited with rocks pretty easily, but the addition of HDB this meta keeps Archeops around for way longer than before to dish out strong attacks. Defensively only bulky rocks and grounds like Rhydon, Regirock, and Palossand can check Archeops but they are all vulnerable to hazards and can be easily abused with a well timed U-turn. Only one of its checks has reliable recovery in Palo, but Taunt can easily be fit to ruin its day. I'm not sure if I'd want this banned before Rose as I think it enables Archeops so much, but its still in the top 5 most broken things in the tier right now and something to keep a very close eye on.

:ss/magmortar:
Mag is the massive wallbreaking threat it's always been. Fire Blast, Focus Blast, and Tbolt can hit almost anything for a 2hko and Taunt can stop most things that aren't. There are a lot more tools to deal with Mag than when we banned it in SM like Druddigon, Vaporeon, Gigalith, etc, but Mag also has the addition of HDB to keep it around longer to wear down these checks. I would pretty confidently say Magmortar isn't straight up broken right now, but has a high potential to be in the future.

:ss/kingler:
Kingler is similar to Mag in that I don't believe it's broken but is top tier threat not to be underestimated. Kingler often gets to choose its checks, with Agility 3 atks leaving offense in shambles while SD can absolutely neuter balance that relies on Vaporeon to be the water check. This is another mon that loves to partner with broken Roserade to provide Spikes support and check bulky waters, so I'd like to see if it had the same effect with a Rose-less meta before taking any action.

:ss/gallade: :ss/scrafty: :ss/toxicroak:
Will PU ever be free from the Fighting type menace? All three of these and to a lesser extent Sawk and Hitmonlee are centralizing mons and provide for a huge headache while building. Individually each could be a balanced addition to the tier and would prove to be little issue, but the problem is there are too many of them and checking them all while still building a coherent team is a daunting task. Have Weezing as your check? Gallade will tear through your team with ZHB. Well thats ok you can just run Palossand instead, until you get swept by Shed Skin Scrafty. Surely Aromatisse should be enough to stop fighters but nope there's Toxicroak to ruin your day. Making sure you have a good matchup vs every fighting type we have often requires two even three slots to be safe, and in a meta like this with so many threats to cover that will always leave you open to problems elsewhere. I'm not really sure what should be done about this issue or which is more broken than the other, but I am sure PU will not be balanced if they all stay.

Thanks for reading! :blobwizard:
 
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MZ

petals in the wind
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PU Leader
Council Minutes
First of all, sorry about missing last week. There was enough happening that deserved council weighing in on, I just sorta got real busy and forgot to get it done. I also forgot about Untier Talk ,,,

Meta Discussion:
  • :Roserade: This has been the #1 discussion point of council and at this point and opinions have shifted since the quickvote on 1/2 which saw it receive 4/8 ban votes and stay in the tier. A majority of council just believes it's flat out broken and not worth dealing with, not the most broken thing we've ever had or absolutely dominating every game it's in but overpowering enough with little enough counterplay to be worth just quickbanning. It's been talked about a lot in our voting reasonings, discord and room discussion, even in the post above (s/o LST his reasoning is good) so I won't bother adding on more here.
  • What else are we talking about? Well first of all :Virizion: is still a pretty contentious Pokemon as you might expect. It's a Pokemon that's fast but not crazy fast, strong but not crazy strong, has good typing but not that good. However, it's got a nice movepool that can go physical or special and that counts for a lot. We have the offensive and defensive checks to handle some of its sets individually but it gets trickier when you try to switch your physically defensive Aromatisse in and it takes 70 from Life Orb Leaf Storm, or you go Weezing and get caught by Lum Berry + Swords Dance + Zen Headbutt. In the pre-bans meta we had Sigilyph and Vileplume as well as a few other ubiquitous checks like Scarf Indeedee-F, but now Virizion is a lot stronger. All this being said, it's not clearly broken. It's still pretty straightforward to revenge kill, coverage/prediction reliant, and arguably a great, S-tier breaker that's also not worth banning.
  • :Archeops: :Toxicroak: These are the only other Pokemon to see major discussion along the lines of "broken maybe?". The former is pretty fast and strong and annoying, I think it's clear what Archeops's benefits are. On the other hand there's a good few Pokemon in this meta that can outspeed and revenge kill it, even more scarfers that help put on the offensive pressure, and most of our normal defensive mons match up just fine vs it (Weezing, Regirock, Vaporeon, etc.). You're not exactly going deep on the VR to find how to beat Archeops. Toxicroak, on the other hand, is insanely strong at breaking teams down. Being able to run powerful Swords Dance or Nasty Plot sets, both of which can drop priority to break even more would be counters, makes it really threatening right now. Currently it's much more of a pure wallbreaker as even with the priority it doesn't pull off that many sweeps, which is a decent factor in it not being super broken, but we're still keeping a close eye on this since the counterplay is not that easy.
VR and Other Votes:
  • (first of all if you missed it we had a vote on January 2nd and 9 things got banned, we just haven't done minutes since then)
  • There will be a vote this Friday, January 15th. Roserade, Virizion, Archeops, and Toxicroak will be on it, I don't think anything else will be and the latter two are more formalities than anything I would expect much action on. This vote will have 3 options instead of 2: Ban, if a council member thinks the Pokemon is just worth quickbanning immediately, Do Nothing if no action is required, or Suspect. We're finally in a place that "I think this is broken/very close to broken but it should be decided in a public vote" is a viable option, hooray. Personally speaking, what I want and expect based on recent conversations is for Roserade to get quickbanned and Virizion to be deemed suspect worthy. If this is the case, we will start a Virizion suspect test this Sunday. No guarantees, but I really do want to get a suspect going soon.
  • There's also an honest to god actual viability rankings thread out now! I mean, there's still a ton of inaccuracies because this is a very new meta and fairly top-heavy and centralized so in particular the lower ranks are kinda all over the place, but it's not a bad start. Making it was pretty chaotic and there won't be another vote for a little bit, but we'd love to get your input!
Forum Happenings:
  • Like I said above, we have a viability rankings now. And there was that huge council vote. And also the tier shift right before that. Gonna assume anyone reading this is familiar with those things.
  • 2021 PU Circuit details got announced, as well as info on the 2021 PU Classic.
  • And then, since we missed a week, SM PU Cup R1 has already gone up (they still might take subs though? idk) and ORAS PU Cup Signups are here.
  • Akir is starting to fix BW PU with this new discussion thread, I believe the vote for that will be out soon as well since any bans should be concluded before the open starts.
  • PU Matchmaking is back, go participate and be on the lookout for more forum projects now that we might have any level of stability.
  • LTPL Week 3 came and went with some pretty fun games and techs in there and LTPL Week 4 is here too. 6 PU matches in both of these weeks, s/o the very accommodating managers who apparently love picking this tier.
  • PU Analyses are starting up again! I promise there's never a better time to get into c&c, there's tons of new Pokemon we want help putting out sets for and we could really really use more writers and QC members, particularly the latter.
  • Secret Santa started but it's kinda too late to advertise it. This is what happens when I don't bother anyone about the week x_x
tl;dr vote this Friday, I give it a very good chance of Roserade Ban+Virizion Suspect, PU analyses are back, and we have a viability rankings again
 
So I'm back making a post on the latest disease that has been plaguing PU which I have named the "Fighting Disease."

:ss/machamp: Fighting Disease :ss/sirfetchd:

Introduction
It is easy to see what sort of symptoms a tier with Fighting Disease has: a large amount of fighting-type pokemon, the majority of them being quite good and that's about it. The PU council sent out a vaccine that ridded us of Sirfetch'd and Machamp not too long ago. The biggest issue concerning the Fighting Disease where switchins were practically non-existent. The remaining Fighters got a bit angry and now they are plaguing the tier so for the sake of my fellow PUers, I'm doing an in-depth analysis on the viable Fighters in the tier because we deserve to know how they operate and what they are capable of. Click on the mons to see their sets.


:passimian: The Best :virizion:

:ss/passimian:
Starting off with monkey boy Passimian, which is my favourite Fighter to use right now, is not the most versatile mon I will be covering. I can only see choiced as viable options for it but do not let that distract you from the fact that Passimian is one of the best mons in the tier. Choice Scarf is a fabulous revenge killer, outspeeding the entire unboosted metagame utilising its great coverage in Knock Off and Gunk Shot to damn its Ghost and Fairy checks into oblivion. U-turn also being a fantastic and quite necessary move on a lot of scarfers to maintain offensive momentum, not many of the other Fighters are able to replicate Passimian's scarfing ability. The few cons with Passimian is base 80 Speed is contested with Scarf Braviary (which isn't bad guys) and also Scarf Mesprit, both of which can deal fatal damage to you if Passimian decides to lose 50 50 speedtie. Choice Band is a devastating mid-speed breaker, especially on builds that utilise webs to alleviate its above speed tier. Anything that isn't named Palossand or Cofagrigus (or Weezing for that matter) do not want to switch into Close Combat. I mentioned webs because you cannot forget about Passimian's ability Defiant which defers Defog attempts from the likes of Silvally-Steel.

Passimian overall is quite a good mon in such an offensive metagame, isn't too slow, hits hard and has decent bulk to afford switching into neutral moves.

:ss/virizion:
Virizion is next on my list and Virizion has been claimed by many to be broken for the tier and should either get quickbanned or suspect tested. It is a shame that I have not used Virizion as much as I should've compared to other Fighters but I still have decent enough knowledge to talk a good bit about this mon. Virizion stat-wise is very stacked for the tier. Base 90 offensives aren't shabby by PU standards, especially when you have setup options in Calm Mind and Swords Dance plus it is the fastest Fighter in the tier with base 108 speed. You don't notice too much but having base 129 spdef is amazing to switch into mons like Specs Heliolisk spamming Thunderbolt and threaten it up and proceed to sweep. My favourite set would have to be Swords Dance because you're able to use dual stab + Zen Headbutt, which covers your poison weakness and bopping Poisonvally, Roserade and Weezing which cm somewhat struggles to do due to lack of coverage. I won't say too much else on Virizion but it's pretty self-explanatory why Virizion is the best Fighter in the tier.



:gallade: The Good :hitmonlee:

:ss/gallade:
Starting off the good section with Gallade. I like to call Gallade the "Fighter who beats the Poisons" because of its psychic typing. Gallade overall hits very hard, having the highest Attack stat of the Fighters tied with Sawk and is able to boost that Attack with Swords Dance, Gallade is probably the best balance breaking Fighter in the tier. Dual-stab + Knock hits everything in the tier (Dark + Fighting coverage is goated) and it's very easy for Gallade to just ohko opposing mons. AoA isn't the only set I've experimented with. It might be the best but Gallade isn't as one trick pony as you think. Choiced Trick is a nice option to cripple the defensive mons that intend to rain on its parade like Palossand and Aromatisse, the latter really hates getting choice locked because it loses passive recovery.

:ss/toxicroak:
Toxicroak is up next and I made a pretty fun team utilising both Gallade and Toxicroak so I've gotten quite used to using this beast. I called Gallade the "Fighter who beats the Poisons" and now we have the "Fighter who beats the Fairies." Toxicroak does its job as a great physical and special attacking Fighter because of its good offensive stats and decent speed tier. Toxicroak's strongest tool is obviously you do not know what set it is running off the bat. You want to bring in Weezing to burn physical, oh it's just going to Nasty Plot and 2hko you with Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse. Its versatility keeps whoever faces it on their toes as its checks are completely different depending on what set it is. Toxicroak is also very nice to use rn when Vaporeon is so common and you use it as setup fodder thanks to its ability Dry Skin, making it a water immunity. My main issue I've found with this mon is 4mss on SD sets because you're completely walled by Ghosts unless you want to run Knock > Sucker but Sucker is amazing for dealing with faster threats that are attempting to revenge kill. Its STABs are somewhat easy to wall but NP has this covered with Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse coverage which catches out the Ghosts. I think Shadow Ball is more preferable due to Colbur being so common. Once again, like Gallade, it can run Choice Scarf. imo it's not the best scarfer but its speed tier is higher than things like Braviary and Passimian so I suppose it's nice to catch them out and potentially kill them with your moves.

:ss/sawk:
My favourite Fighting-type of all time, I'm happy to use Sawk in the tier I play the most. Sawk is most similar to Passimian out of all the Fighters. They typically want to run the same sets (Band or Scarf), their stat distributions are quite similar (Sawk has slightly higher and speed but Pass is more bulkier). So why is Pass like the most used scarfer over Sawk. From my studying of the Fighting Disease and discussing with affiliates, U-turn is a big move that Pass possesses and Sawk does not. U-turn is such a free move vs checks switching into you so the player using Passimian is always in the lead in terms of momentum but Sawk does not have that option. The best Sawk is able to do is Knock incoming checks. There is nothing wrong with that, Knock is the freest move in the game but when Palossand comes in and takes like 25 from Knock due to Colbur, you are immediately forced to switch and the opponent is most likely guaranteed rocks or instant recovery, setting you back. This is not to invalidate Scarf Sawk. I still believe it has reason to be used. Sawk's Mold Breaker ability is nice for catching out things like Weezing that dare to switch in expecting a Close Combat and then proceed to get Earthquaked on the switch.

Band is also a fantastic breaker in the same vein as Band Passimian, having the added benefit of being stronger and faster. There is not much to explain here because it is practically a faster and stronger Passimian with the same coverage options (Gunk Shot Poison Jab same thing).

:ss/hitmonlee:
Last one on the good list is Hitmonlee, another Fighter I wished I had used just a bit more but Hitmonlee has quite a few tricks up its sleeves to differentiate itself from the other Fighters so far. Hitmonlee thrives on terrain teams, not as much as before because we banned Indeedee, basically killing Psy terrain teams but it was very strong under that, outspeeding the entire metagame via Unburden and being immune to priority so it could use Endure + Liechi Berry and proceed to destroy offence. It can still function on Grassy and Electric Terrain but it is definitely not as strong as Psy Terrain. But if you're like me, and do not care about terrain teams then Hitmonlee can do everything the previous Fighters can in terms of running a Choice Band set and proceed to have limited switchins. Utilising its other ability Reckless, banded Hitmonlee Reckless High Jump Kick is definitely the strongest attack coming from the Fighters in the tier, landing a solid 3hko onto Weezing after rocks and straight up killing everything that isn't a resist/immunity. It is also the king of the mid speed Fighters having base 87 speed, getting the run on even Sawk and Toxicroak, who have base 85 speed.


:scrafty: Insufficient Data/Unexplored :silvally:

This is the section of my report where the mons where I've barely used and the mons that are overall not being used that I believe have potential will be placed. This is not indicating that a mon here is worse than the Good Fighters eg Scrafty is here but I've heard from many that Scrafty is great, I just haven't used it enough. Speaking of Scrafty...

:ss/scrafty:
When I asked on PUcord about why Scrafty was so high on the VR or why people thought it was good, I was told that in certain MUs, it kinda goes off. Now I can understand that, bulky Bulk Up (great wording ik) sets can be dangerous late game sweepers especially when you don't have anything to hit it with for super-effective damage. I've also witnesses Dragon Dance sets which I personally think aren't that great considering Scrafty's speed tier kinda blows and the ones I faced not having full speed investment, even at +2, you are still outsped by base 80 speed scarfers and above, a lot of them being Fighters which kill you instantly so yeah. I'll try out this mon in the near future and report back to you guys.

:ss/hitmontop:
Hitmontop is next and tbh, I could've put Top in the good section but i didn't want it to get too long, I already know a lot about its capabilities in this tier atm. imo it's one of the best spinners in the tier, slightly below Tsareena when it comes to offensive spinner but it can get the job done quite well. Earlier on in the gen Top was dangerous because of Technician Triple Axel and I still have to say it's still dangerous, not too many mons resist ice + fighting (Centiskorch can get hit by the occassional Stone Edge and Lass and Jelli get hit by that Brutal Swing). I feel like this gen, we've abandoned bulky Top sets with Intimidate because Technician so good but those are still being used but idt they're that good, you can just use Throh if you want a bulky Fighting type. I think you want to go for damage and have sweeping potential when you have a speed boost up.

:ss/silvally-fighting:
And finally the last mon from the Fighting Disease I will be going over is Silvally Fighting. Metas change I know, we got a whole lot of mons now because of DLC but no one is scared of Silvally formes anymore. Not to say this thing is broken but I think it's slightly being overshadowed and underestimated rn. Second fastest Fighting-type in the tier and sure it is unable to hold a band to increase its immediate breaking power nor a scarf to be pivot like Pass but SD is still quite a dangerous breaker with a Close Combat that doesn't drop your defences and 95/95/95 bulk all around that makes taking this thing out not too easy unless you use a Brave Bird. 4mss still kinda sucks, you want Flame Charge to sweep but Psychic Fangs is nice for killing Poisons or you want Iron Head to punish Fairies but also there's U-turn to keep momentum if you face Fairies who don't care about your STAB or your mandatory coverage option which is Crunch. I do believe it's somewhat difficult to sweep with Fightingvally, it's better to break with it but other Fighters can break much more reliably. Things like Toxicroak can handle its weaknesses and so can Gallade. Why use Fightingvally over them? Well it still has its speed and bulk so there's always going to be a niche for this mon.


Now guys, hopefully I well-informed you when it comes to knowing about the Fighting Disease. We won't be getting rid of this for quite a while now and maybe Virizion goes in who knows when but we are still left with the plethora of Fighters raring to spam CC and Knock Off or attempt to hit Focus Miss. If I missed out a mon you think I should've talked about then my bad. Poli, Chan, Gurdurr (Falinks is pushing it) but those are the only things that are somewhat worth that I missed. Everything else isn't.
 

Deleted User 350996

Banned deucer.
When I started playing this tier the only Fighting mons were :monferno: (RIP) and:machoke: while :throh: was banned. Time has changed and it's good to see more versatility and options!
Anyway from my own little and humble experience, :virizion: is probably the scariest of them; it can run either physical or special set, have coverage options to deal with its checks and can even run Taunt or Synthesis.
Also maybe we shouldn't forget :gurdurr: which has the unique ability to Defog (even though I've never used it as a defogger) and absorb status.
 
I'd like to apologise in advance if this post comes off as abrasive, because truthfully I respect every single person on the council, and I think they're all great people and players of the tier. I was going to wait a week to potentially make this post if the worst were to come as a result of this ban vote, but it's probably better suited as a preventative measure rather than a complaint post-vote. It's also probably helpful to vent my previous frustrations from the last slate and subsequent banning of nine Pokémon.

This metagame has changed rapidly over the last year due to the DLCs, rapid tiering changes, and various other factors; and with that the council has attempted to be proactive throughout all that time with frequent bans to at least make the tier playable during that time, which I commend them for. Now however, we're finally at a stage where the metagame won't change drastically for at least several months, and yet we're still employing the same ban philosophy.

As I've already said, the last ban vote saw the banning of nine Pokémon, six of which were universally agreed upon as broken by virtually the entire community. Tauros, Raichu-Alola and Sceptile however were not. I went into this vote believing wholeheartedly the council were not going to ban terrain abuse and rather see how Pokémon like Sceptile were after Indeedee's departure. But instead, we got some unfortunately subpar ban reasonings from council members, with the majority theorymonning for future metagames and not giving it a chance. Tauros saw no usage, saw no tournament success, the metagame didn't even have a chance to adapt to a Pokémon that just wasn't being used, simply because a few people looked at it on paper and said "nah that's too much". I don't understand why we had to ban it straight away? Am I missing something? I mean, sure you want to make the metagame playable for LTPL but this is just absurd.

And now we come up on yet another ban vote. This time we're voting on Roserade, Virizion, Archeops and Toxicroak. I felt required to make this post because seeing again Pokémon that are unequivocally not broken being added to the slate is worrying to say the least. But I am hopeful, given MZ stating that the latter two are mostly formalities and Virizion will most likely lead to a suspect. The optimal outcome from this vote for me personally would be Roserade leaving the tier, Virizion getting a suspect, and the other two being ignored so this is completely fair. Although given I've heard there are members of the council that believe Archeops and Toxicroak are broken and should leave, I felt like this post was necessary.

What I'm simply asking for is for people on the council to maybe employ a more lenient criteria for Pokémon staying in the tier. Potent wallbreakers aren't always banworthy, and the fact that we've repeatedly added Pokémon that aren't even borderline unhealthy in my eyes to the slate is alarming. I appreciate the work you all do in ensuring this metagame is as balanced and fun as it is, but truly my anxiety is getting the better of me as we approach another ban vote. Thank you for your time.
 
Tauros saw no usage, saw no tournament success, the metagame didn't even have a chance to adapt to a Pokémon that just wasn't being used, simply because a few people looked at it on paper and said "nah that's too much".
I too hope this doesn’t come off as rude as well, but Tauros was clearly broken as well and wouldn’t have taken long for players to realize that. Tauros had few checks due to nothing wanting to switch into Sheer Force boosted attacks and the few that could reliably switch in got destroyed by CC or Iron Tail. There’s also it’s speed tier, which rivals Archeops for crying out loud. And it also had deceptively decent bulk which allowed it to tank a hit before steamrolling back... I agree that the bull wasn’t used much before its ban, but it still was very clearly broken for the tier.
 
I too hope this doesn’t come off as rude as well, but Tauros was clearly broken as well and wouldn’t have taken long for players to realize that. Tauros had few checks due to nothing wanting to switch into Sheer Force boosted attacks and the few that could reliably switch in got destroyed by CC or Iron Tail. There’s also it’s speed tier, which rivals Archeops for crying out loud. And it also had deceptively decent bulk which allowed it to tank a hit before steamrolling back... I agree that the bull wasn’t used much before its ban, but it still was very clearly broken for the tier.
I appreciate your reply, but this is clearly missing the point of my post. I agree it looks broken on paper, but we weren't given the opportunity to even attempt to defensively prepare for it, because we didn't see it as a threat at the time. Saying players would have realised a Pokémon is broken if we hadn't banned it is a slippery slope argument that doesn't really help our case when tiering effectively.
 

Specs

Lost In The World
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Hey Chloe! Take this post as a response from the whole council. I wrote most of it but there were some edits ect, and not all of this is something I actually believe but it's a mixture of my thoughts + things I know some council members believe

we're finally at a stage where the metagame won't change drastically for at least several months, and yet we're still employing the same ban philosophy.
Starting here would be good, this is a fair point at face value. We've been having a good amount of pokemon on each slate this whole gen. While the days of drastic changes every month + DLC's to worry about down the line are over, this was still a massive hit and we felt that this method was still a good way to do things.
Tauros saw no usage, saw no tournament success, the metagame didn't even have a chance to adapt to a Pokémon that just wasn't being used, simply because a few people looked at it on paper and said "nah that's too much". I don't understand why we had to ban it straight away? Am I missing something? I mean, sure you want to make the metagame playable for LTPL but this is just absurd.
Usage is a tough thing to really factor in when we are faced with 50+ new pokemon in a tier. Could we have waiting one or two more weeks to vote on it again, after some previous bans? Yea for sure. But this just didn't seem necessary given what we had experienced with it, and how we felt the tier would be if it stayed.

Not all of this was based on looking at Tauros on paper though, people have just had different experiences with the tier. This is something that the council is experiencing even now. Tauros was something the council was worried about as soon as it dropped, we used it, and most of us (7/8 on the vote) found it to be too much for the tier breaking wise. Could it have been because the defensive structures we were seeing at the time couldn't handle it well while also keeping in mind things like Machamp, Sirfetch'd, Indeedee, ect? Possibly yea. We just felt that it was too much anyways, and that's just sort of how this happened.

When we are trying to balance the tier as quickly as possible there has always been an element of prediction and seeing what things do on paper. I (Specs) could face a bunch of Toxicroak before that first vote and really have found it to be an issue, while MZ could face 0 and think I'm crazy because at the time it doesn't seem like an issue at all on paper and he has nothing else to go off of. This would be remedied with more time, but if the people on council have already found a certain threat to be an issue despite not everyone facing it a lot this is just a bi-product of us getting a crazy amount of threats all at once.

And now we come up on yet another ban vote. This time we're voting on Roserade, Virizion, Archeops and Toxicroak. I felt required to make this post because seeing again Pokémon that are unequivocally not broken being added to the slate is worrying to say the least.
The latter 2 indeed were added because a couple council members did want them on the slate just in case opinions changed during the voting process. This has been something we've done for the whole gen and it has worked out fine, adding on some potential scary mons to a slate where they might not be the top threats on the slate, but we might find council members do in fact think they are worth voting ban on.
 
Can I ask why Arctovish isn't even being put on the slate? It's the most broken weather abuser in the tier (maybe Charizard, but Sun setters are way worse than Hail setters in the tier) and is only really countered by Vaporeon and Jellicent, neither of which can really fight back. Jellicent can burn it but can't switch in to Freeze Dry, whilst Vaporeon can stand up to Freeze Dry but has to spam Wishtect to survive. Are we expected to depend entirely on offensive checks versus a pokemon that can OHKO almost everything in PU, which outspeeds everything under Hail?
 

tlenit

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Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeello,

Since it's been already couple weeks I think I can confidently drop my meta thoughts. Been very busy at work and irl, but somehow still managed to get myself in a point where I feel im up to date. Not to mention played too much after all.

First of all I'm only speaking from my perspective, not behalf of council like Specs did right above.

Anyways, to drop the mic, I think the meta is actually in good place as it is. Simple as that. I don't find any mon right now being over the top and I am very much down to let things settle down as they currently are. We have already seen good amount of adapting from where we started. People recognizes whats top tier threats meaning we will take them into account while building. When all 100 mons dropped, it was a mess, but for a reason. We wanted to test out everything and fast. This alone creates lot of flawed teams to begin with. I did that too (thanks !randpoke 6, pu -command).

I think we're also in very different place compared to SM. SM PU was very narrowed down with number of mons the tier carried. SS PU is already bigger tier than SM and this gives more options to run. This is something we are not used to in PU. Lot of new mons are introduced that we could have never even dreamed in SM. If you werent familiar with these from other SM tiers, this automatically leads us to start fresh. These new mons can make themselves looks better than they actually are, because opponent will be granted free turns while you're figuring what they can do in game. I believe this alone slows the adapting process and giving more time should be granted.

One of very new mons that is versatile with its movepool and has lot of options is :Virizion:. This will be the mon im focusing on this post. Virizion alone can run physical, special, 4atk mixed LO, SetUp sets to start with. Base 90atk/spatk isnt the hardest hitter of tier, but the move pool offers great coverage. Part of the conversations about Virizion what I have followed has been it has basically answer to everything. This is only if Virizon has A) perfect set for the MU B) clicks always the perfect move C) has perfect condition eg. rocks/spikes up and D) carries 6 moves. To get Virizion rolling the Virizion user has to most often make a play. Otherwise you end up losing momentum and need to find spot to reclaim it. We have good amount of pivot mons that can switch in and "abuse" Virizion, to name few; Whimsicott, Ribombee, Scarf-Mesprit/Xatu, Talonflame, and my personal favorite Golbat which in fact hard walls entire mon - stone edge doesn't break it. Yes, Virizion does have coverage for some of them, but again, Virizion user needs to make a prediction to get things rolling.

There is also good amount of mons that doesnt mind switching in even, if they can't pivot out. To point few out: AV Trevenant (yup, this mon exists still), Weezing (doesnt need to run only physical def EVs), Gourgeist (Basically hard walls physical and mixed can be EV'd to tank), Musharna (again, this does exists and is surprisingly fine support mon) and even Alcremie is fine coming in against mixed Virizion. Yes, I did focus with purpose more on "unmons" while listing these.

Outcome after seeing Virizion on paper and in practice is like night and day. On paper Virizion is outstanding and does whatever it likes to. In practice its often momentum drainer and puts less effort than I first thought. Don't understand me wrong. It's still top tier mon and good, but it's definitely not living it's expectations.

Roserade is imo even simpler DnB vote than Virizion. Roserades sets are narrowed down and is often called off on preview. Yes, you often have to give a sleep fodder against it, unless you run safety goggles mon to abuse those turns. Articuno/Golbat/Silvally Poison and Steel defogs through game pretty confidently and tbf doesnt care that much sleeping turn or two. Looking forward hearing some strong arguments to ban it, because so far it looks like spikes+sleep powder being too much for some people. For sure not fun to play against, but not enough to ban at all.

Like Chloe stated in her post. I also am not fan of generally ban happy environment. I think the ban case should be pretty strong to remove something in the first place from tier. To me, the upcoming voting slate is pretty simple: DnB all. None of them deserves being banned and I would personally start with Archeops suspect instead of Roserade/Virizion. As an additional respond to Chloe, I have used pretty much every mon in the tier and my opinions are based on how they act in practice. I prefer it that way, if i dont find time to use them - I wont vote on them.

Anyways, I think we can slow things down and keep it cool. I had like to get plausible suspect test up and running. Altho I would also like to see people being unbiased and voting based if the mon is actually broken instead of "i dont like to play against it". If something is broken to bring up why its broken and extra points and cookies for everyone who bring replays with them to party. Usually suspect tests feels to me be "pre-ban" stage and it doesn't even matter what gets suspected, its usually leaving the tier. Like, it's fine to have different opinion than friends ^^

tldr: idk, just wrote an hour some pu related stuff. no idea how many times i lost the track, but enjoy


Can I ask why Arctovish isn't even being put on the slate? It's the most broken weather abuser in the tier (maybe Charizard, but Sun setters are way worse than Hail setters in the tier) and is only really countered by Vaporeon and Jellicent, neither of which can really fight back. Jellicent can burn it but can't switch in to Freeze Dry, whilst Vaporeon can stand up to Freeze Dry but has to spam Wishtect to survive. Are we expected to depend entirely on offensive checks versus a pokemon that can OHKO almost everything in PU, which outspeeds everything under Hail?
ill quickly respond to this as well regarding Arctovish. We have good portion of bulky water type. None of them are bothered by freeze dry. Even jellicent recovers it off, bcs it makes only 29.7 - 35.6% against 252hp Jellicent. Many vaporeons does run toxic, which beats the 1v1 sequence and not to mention Poliwrath being there as well. Under hail with adamant Arctovish hits 408 and with Jolly 458. This alone means the better ability (adamant) alone is outsped by base 75 scarfers. Which honestly is quite sad news for Fish. Arctovish is great breaker if opponent forgets their water switch in most often. Otherwise its kept in leash for most parts.
 
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0 SpA Life Orb Arctovish Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 156-187 (38.6 - 46.2%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Arctovish Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 172-203 (37 - 43.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery

Why are you running Adamant on a mixed set?

Specially Defensive Jellicent actually fares better and Strength Sap/ Will O Wisp.

Boots on Vaporeon is slightly better, but if you stop the Wish tect loop to Toxic, you die.

A layer of spikes means you don't actually need Hail for these calcs.
 

tlenit

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0 SpA Life Orb Arctovish Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 156-187 (38.6 - 46.2%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Arctovish Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 172-203 (37 - 43.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery

Why are you running Adamant on a mixed set?

Specially Defensive Jellicent actually fares better and Strength Sap/ Will O Wisp.

Boots on Vaporeon is slightly better, but if you stop the Wish tect loop to Toxic, you die.

A layer of spikes means you don't actually need Hail for these calcs.
Yea, it was a bit fast respond. Altho, +atk -def/spdef nature since you want to click fishious rend as hard as possible usually. Life orb is fine option as well, but I personally prefer banded for the monster truck damage.

I have to disagree actually, from my personal experience its actually vice versa; HDB Jellicent and Lefties Vaporeon works out superb. Sometimes itemless Jellicent is great option as well to absorb poltergeists or create one through colbur berry. Anyways, as you pointed out through calcs, freeze dry is not breaking either of them. If you end up "locking" urself into freeze dry and only spamming it, you are willingly giving opponent fairly free switch in to whatever breaker that doesnt care about freeze dry. From your opponent perspective burning hail turns is not that bad idea either.
 
I mean the best 2 switchins can be 2HKOd by a coverage move with no investment from full HP.

Poliwrath can revenge kill but he doesn't out speed under hail and gets 2HKOd by Freeze Dry and Psychic Fangs, with 2 layers of spikes and Hail Psychic Fangs will OHKO it.

Arctovish has no counters under hail, you must either make a lucky prediction or sack a Pokemon.
 
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spatulakun

I LOVE CHIPFLAVOUR
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I mean the best 2 switchins can be 2HKOd by a coverage move with no investment from full HP.

Poliwrath can revenge kill but he doesn't out speed under hail and gets 2HKOd by Freeze Dry and Psychic Fangs, with 2 layers of spikes and Hail Psychic Fangs will OHKO it.

Arctovish has no counters under hail.
I don't know if arctovish is broken or not but you're kind of overselling it. Saying a mon gets ohkod after 2 layers of spikes is a pretty substantial condition that needs to be fulfilled for the calc to manifest itself in the actual battle. Also, arctovish is outsped by 2 common scarfers (assuming it's adamant) in passimian and togedemaru and if it's jolly, it's not the strongest thing in the world, and most traditional water resists, let alone the multiple immunes like vaporeon/jellicent and even stuff like heliolisk and toxicroak, can usually take a hit and retaliate. Also, being weather dependent is a pretty big condition for arctovish to reach its full potential that isn't always guaranteed to be present. Finally, arctovish is pretty vulnerable to hazards - it's weak to rocks and gets hit by spikes/tspikes. So, even if it were true (I don't believe so, personally) that arctovish had no "counters" in the traditional sense, there's still a good amount of counterplay available in the tier. A pokemon can be broken even if hard counters exist, and a pokemon can be balanced even if no/very few "counters" exist.

In order to not turn this post into a giant-ass lecture about a single mon, I do want to say that I'm having a lot of fun with the tier at the moment, specifically because of the plethora of wallbreakers that are available. I'm building a new team pretty much every day with stuff like CB basculin, CB guzzlord, SD virizion, NP toxicroak, boots magmortar, you name it. Definitely not gonna miss roserade though...
 

gum

royal screw up
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hi, gonna give my two cents on the mons getting voted on!!! also sorry if this post is kinda rambly and i repeat myself a couple of times, i'm too lazy to proofread

9C134282-7A17-4DD9-8092-944A5AD5C610.png

this mon is beyond stupid. in a tier lacking sturdy grass and poison resists, its stabs are already hard enough to switch into. it can also take advantage of like, all of our best defensive pokémon because of its typing + ok special bulk to wallbreak or be an annoyance. however, what pushes it over the edge is its access to spikes - it's by far the best setter due to what i mentioned earlier, which is made even worse when u take its ability to simply render a pokémon useless for a couple of turns with sleep powder. i don't think it'd be anywhere near a big issue if it wasn't simultaneously the best support pokémon and a top 5 breaker in the tier. another point i'd like to talk about is how well it pairs with just about any pokémon in the tier, ranging from excellent wallbreakers like archeops and sneasel to defensive staples like palossand and gigalith. this makes it extremely splashable. this is something i'm gonna talk about more later on, but roserade is also an enabler to many pokémon considered broken / unhealthy - those threats wouldn't be anywhere as good without roserade's excellent support

AFE83551-898C-4530-A9A9-29008AA82AFA.png

virizion is a weird case; it's almost impossible to switch into thanks to its movepool and how unpredictable it is. similarly to roserade, it can also take advantage of common defensive mons, but what makes it different from roserade is that sets like swords dance and calm mind are always gonna struggle in certain matchups due to them always needing the right coverage option to break through a certain check. mixed doesn't really have that problem, but it's still rather prediction reliant and can sometimes struggle to break through mons it can't hit super effectively. it's also kinda easy to punish with stuff like toxic palossand and vaporeon. on the other hand, as long as you don't know what set it is, you take a huge risk by sending out your weezing or talonflame; the former might become setup fodder for calm mind and the latter might just take a stone edge. this is also true for swords dance sets, albeit to a lesser extent. i don't think any of its sets are too much by themselves, it's moreso its versatility that makes it such a pain building and playing wise. fitting answers to all its sets is rather hard, and people often have to rely on using multiple soft-switchins like talonflame or weezing + an offensive check like archeops or whimsicott. i still think it's an underexplored threat, with sets like subcm with lefties / salac berry and sub 3 attacks being considerably harder to revenge kill at the cost of not being able to threaten certain threats very well. i'm still not convinced it's broken, though, and i think it could potentially be manageable in a roserade-less metagame

5E55F062-4CC6-4846-8B8A-0A748A288900.png

this mon isn't broken!!! we have plenty of answers - both defensive and offensive ones, and they're all very good. the most common argument i hear for this pokémon being broken is it being such a good spikes abuser (roserade partner), which allows it to break through would-be answers like palossand and regirock, but i think that says more about roserade being a really stupid mon than anything. in a roserade-less meta, i don't think this would be anywhere as solid or even be considered broken. it needs quite a bit of support too, as its ability leaves it with almost no defensive utility and means it gets forced out by almost every faster threat. it's more of a mon you need to build around than one you simply add to a team, which limits its options greatly. also i think people overrate how good dual wingbeat is on archeops, yeah it has 145 attack but that move is still piss-weak meaning you can't even 1v1 threats like choice band passimian due to defeatist, and it kinda always wants to run 6 moves

AD66CE1B-EDAD-4AF6-8E03-95703AF60E6C.png

toxicroak is another pokémon i don't think is broken. it kinda thrives right now due to most defensive cores folding to it, but i think that's more of a byproduct of how the metagame is currently than toxicroak being broken. answers to it aren't necessarily scarce or bad, with stuff like will-o-wisp jellicent dealing with swords dance sets rather easily, while mons like garbodor can take on nasty plot sets without much difficulty. it's a bit useless against most offensive teams since it has absolutely 0 defensive utility outside of dry skin + an awkward speed tier, with even resisted hits chunking it heavily, with stuff like ribombee and talonflame revenge killing it without much difficulty.

tl;dr: ban roserade!! suspect virizion, and keep archeops and toxicroak in the tier

---
ty for reading!!
 
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Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
Hi, just gonna reply to some stuff as shortly as I can.

...and yet we're still employing the same ban philosophy.

As I've already said, the last ban vote saw the banning of nine Pokémon, six of which were universally agreed upon as broken by virtually the entire community. Tauros, Raichu-Alola and Sceptile however were not. I went into this vote believing wholeheartedly the council were not going to ban terrain abuse and rather see how Pokémon like Sceptile were after Indeedee's departure. But instead, we got some unfortunately subpar ban reasonings from council members, with the majority theorymonning for future metagames and not giving it a chance. Tauros saw no usage, saw no tournament success, the metagame didn't even have a chance to adapt to a Pokémon that just wasn't being used, simply because a few people looked at it on paper and said "nah that's too much". I don't understand why we had to ban it straight away? Am I missing something? I mean, sure you want to make the metagame playable for LTPL but this is just absurd.
I was added back to the council a month ago and even now I still feel like I'm on the other side and not really council. So I'll be replying the way I'm feeling now, not so much as one of those who voted on Machamp and friends but more as just a PU player.

First of all the vote happening today and tomorrow is the last quickban vote, the ban philosophy will be suspects from now on (I think it's important to say it for whoever didn't know it).

Secondly, I want to encourage you to realize nobody got even close to understanding January 1 PU. All the mons we've been seeing in PU for the last 2 weeks simply didn't exist in december PU. The volume of new toys to use is massive, the amount of combinations to try out is astronomical, and the number of possible teams incredible. As Specs said very accurately in our council chat, we're all having our own experience with the tier and it's different from everyone else. That's why your argument about mons getting quickbanned based on theorymonning isn't relevant to me: we've all been theorymonning; yes we've played the tier, but we would have needed a hundred hours to understand it; and imo it was such a mess before the quickbans that any real understanding wasn't possible and bans had to be done on the little experience we had.

Everyone thought exploud was broken, but wasn't that theorymonning and imagining what it would do in a balanced meta? I haven't had any trouble with exploud in a metagame where only HO and offense were viable. From my experience Tauros was far stronger than Exploud in this beginning of January. Unpopular opinion? I guess. But I played the tier and it seemed to me all that fuss about exploud was just massive hype about boomburst when the guy sat at 68 speed base stat and got destroyed by everything offensive and lost to the only defensive mons used ie Regirock and Gigalith. Nobody even pointed out Band braviary was stronger than specs exploud and bulkier and faster, and that tauros was much faster and didn't really pale in comparison power-wise.

What was "universally agreed upon as broken" wasn't necessarily broken at that moment, and in the same way, what wasn't agreed upon as broken could be totally broken like sceptile in terrain IMO. Nobody is right or wrong, but it's not because a bunch of people including us council thought something was broken or not that it was any closer to the truth: the tier was an absolute mess and you couldn't even trust a twenty or thirty games to help you figure out the actual effectiveness of a pokémon: even machamp could seem OK with the stupid amount of indeedee teams or kingdra rains. Theorymonning supported by little experience was simply the only way to judge pokémons when voting.

That's all I wanted to say in response to your post. I understand your stance, and I hope my response didn't feel like dismissing your worries, but just nuancing what you made look like black and white. I also took note of writing in more detail my reasonings when voting on something.


Can I ask why Arctovish isn't even being put on the slate? It's the most broken weather abuser in the tier (maybe Charizard, but Sun setters are way worse than Hail setters in the tier) and is only really countered by Vaporeon and Jellicent, neither of which can really fight back. Jellicent can burn it but can't switch in to Freeze Dry, whilst Vaporeon can stand up to Freeze Dry but has to spam Wishtect to survive. Are we expected to depend entirely on offensive checks versus a pokemon that can OHKO almost everything in PU, which outspeeds everything under Hail?
I absolutely get your point and I think arctovish is dumb, but let me convince you of why it isn't broken and won't be banned. First of all, weathers are a niche playstyle and you don't see them too much. A weather sweeper needs to be clearly uncompetitive and broken as f*** to need a ban: for exemple, Leafeon in sun was banned (actually it was heatrock but it's the same result) almost a year ago because there was just no counterplay. Arctovish however loses to vaporeon and that's a big deal, because vaporeon is common. It is also rocks weak and can't afford boots because fishious rend without LO or CB doesnt KO things. Jellicent and lanturn also exist(lanturn can't really switchin but can use voltswitch to force vish out and force it to take stealth rock again later and just die), rockyhelmet too, priority from talonflame and toxicroak.

I think that arctovish is extremely close to deserving a suspect because in the current meta the best scarfer, passimian, is slower than vish (seriously don't run adamant vish it's not viable) and other good scarfers like mesprit and braviary are also slower. But the only fact that vaporeon (and jelli and lanturn) exists makes vish not broken. Imagine you are in a tournament setting and you think about using Hail and vish in particular, and just think how likely it is to run into Vaporeon or Lanturn: is using vish worth it? Then if hail is able to abuse these waters and can afford to send vish in and out and in again, it's probably broken, but I haven't seen hails doing that yet. Also if you've played SMPU, you have probably dealt with rain, and even though it's super dumb, nobody uses it in tournaments because teams carry just enough checks like jellicent and eelektross and are able to pressure rain just enough to prevent it from being reliable. Just like sandslash in hail isn't broken in SMPU even though at +2 it sweeps the entire tier because Jellicent existing discourages anyone from bringing it without it being a gamble.

Still I can absolutely imagine vish becoming broken at any moment, especially the combination vanilluxe+vish. I've lost painfully to vish even when I had cofagrigus max defense or machpunch hitmonlee because the thing is virtually unbeatable without water absorb or a scarfer that outspeeds it, and such scarfers are difficult to justify otherwise over behemoths like passimian. It's also important to mention a strong positive for vish which is that freezedry does a bunch to vaporeon and thus u need vaporeon healthy; and a negative which is that scarf togedemaru is uncommon but not a bad scarfer.


hi, gonna give my two cents on the mons getting voted on!!! also sorry if this post is kinda rambly and i repeat myself a couple of times, i'm too lazy to proofread

View attachment 307494
this mon is beyond stupid. in a tier lacking sturdy grass and poison resists, its stabs are already hard enough to switch into. it can also take advantage of like, all of our best defensive pokémon because of its typing + ok special bulk to wallbreak or be an annoyance. however, what pushes it over the edge is its access to spikes - it's by far the best setter due to what i mentioned earlier, which is made even worse when u take its ability to simply render a pokémon useless for a couple of turns with sleep powder. i don't think it'd be anywhere near a big issue if it wasn't simultaneously the best support pokémon and a top 5 breaker in the tier. another point i'd like to talk about is how well it pairs with just about any pokémon in the tier, ranging from excellent wallbreakers like archeops and sneasel to defensive staples like palossand and gigalith. this makes it extremely splashable. this is something i'm gonna talk about more later on, but roserade is also an enabler to many pokémon considered broken / unhealthy - those threats wouldn't be anywhere as good without roserade's excellent support

View attachment 307774
virizion is a weird case; it's almost impossible to switch into thanks to its movepool and how unpredictable it is. similarly to roserade, it can also take advantage of common defensive mons, but what makes it different from roserade is that sets like swords dance and calm mind are always gonna struggle in certain matchups due to them always needing the right coverage option to break through a certain check. mixed doesn't really have that problem, but it's still rather prediction reliant and can sometimes struggle to break through mons it can't hit super effectively. it's also kinda easy to punish with stuff like toxic palossand and vaporeon. on the other hand, as long as you don't know what set it is, you take a huge risk by sending out your weezing or talonflame; the former might become setup fodder for calm mind and the latter might just take a stone edge. this is also true for swords dance sets, albeit to a lesser extent. i don't think any of its sets are too much by themselves, it's moreso its versatility that makes it such a pain building and playing wise. fitting answers to all its sets is rather hard, and people often have to rely on using multiple soft-switchins like talonflame or weezing + an offensive check like archeops or whimsicott. i still think it's an underexplored threat, with sets like subcm with lefties / salac berry and sub 3 attacks being considerably harder to revenge kill at the cost of not being able to threaten certain threats very well. i'm still not convinced it's broken, though, and i think it could potentially be manageable in a roserade-less metagame

View attachment 307777
this mon isn't broken!!! we have plenty of answers - both defensive and offensive ones, and they're all very good. the most common argument i hear for this pokémon being broken is it being such a good spikes abuser (roserade partner), which allows it to break through would-be answers like palossand and regirock, but i think that says more about roserade being a really stupid mon than anything. in a roserade-less meta, i don't think this would be anywhere as solid or even be considered broken. it needs quite a bit of support too, as its ability leaves it with almost no defensive utility and means it gets forced out by almost every faster threat. it's more of a mon you need to build around than one you simply add to a team, which limits its options greatly. also i think people overrate how good dual wingbeat is on archeops, yeah it has 145 attack but that move is still piss-weak meaning you can't even 1v1 threats like choice band passimian due to defeatist, and it kinda always wants to run 6 moves

View attachment 307781
toxicroak is another pokémon i don't think is broken. it kinda thrives right now due to most defensive cores folding to it, but i think that's more of a byproduct of how the metagame is currently than toxicroak being broken. answers to it aren't necessarily scarce or bad, with stuff like will-o-wisp jellicent dealing with swords dance sets rather easily, while mons like garbodor can take on nasty plot sets without much difficulty. it's a bit useless against most offensive teams since it has absolutely 0 defensive utility outside of dry skin + an awkward speed tier, with even resisted hits chunking it heavily, with stuff like ribombee and talonflame revenge killing it without much difficulty.

tl;dr: ban roserade!! suspect virizion, and keep archeops and toxicroak in the tier

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ty for reading!!
Excellent post to me, I agree with everything and that's pretty much my reasoning on the current vote which I've already written. Just disagree with suspecting virizion but I don't mind if it happens if that's what the majority wants.


Other stuff: maybe it's obvious, but if you have time to spend on mons, play as much as you can, the possibilities right now are almost endless, and pretending to having figured out what's really good and how it should be used would be surprising. Look at the mons in ZU, stuff like scrafty and cofagrigus are PU material for exemple. Try out everything. Have you tested sandaconda and palossand? Which one do you like more? What about charizard, talonflame and archeops as birds? Galvantula/vikavolt, best thunder bug? And what about ribombee and whimsicott, do you prefer one and what sets? Ran into weathers or used your own and for what results? And what about Mesprit and Uxie? And all the fighting types? There are so many things to talk about, so I encourage everyone including myself to test absolutely everything and share your experience below.


Again I lied and I didn't keep it short. Peace guys.

-ktut
 
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MrAldo

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Virizion is certainly the type of mon that looks broken on paper but you end noticing it has 90 base offenses a lot of times during damage calculations.

No joke that it is incredibly threatening primarily because of the incredible speed tier and the variety of sets it can pull off really well from SD, to CM, to Specs to Mixed and stuff is hard to prep for... until you see that in practice it can fail to kill many things which let the tier check it pretty well through resistances alone. It can argued that you do not know the set early and that can end up costing you your supposedly check, and thats fair, but even then at the very least you should have a mon that can outspeed it and a mon that check said set tbh.

Roserade on the other hand... boi. This mon shuts down anything it wants to with sleep powder alone. A handful of things that arent even good do not mind that and the one that do not mind can get shut down agressively fast by some set adaptations (sunny day + weather ball is good and demolishes teams on its own) that arent too farfetched or complicated to pull off. You cannot status it which is something that makes viriz easier to check long term since toxic if it is life orb means it is on a timer and lo + passive damage goes a long way. Well, with roserade you cannot do that so F. Ample coverage where every coverage has targets, you dont need to run said coverage but if you had like a guzzlord issue I couldnt say anything if you are running dazzling gleam, or extrasensory and stuff like that. That leaves steels as consistent switch-ins, except we have sleep powder to take into account, and all mind switch-in into that unless you are running spdef ferroseed... yeah, too much. Kick.

Sleep in general is pretty busted, and in something that is as strong as roserade... thats just too strong for the tier. Good thing hidden power is gone otherwise this would have been gone ages ago, but still needs to go imo. Archeops is super strong but with stuff like palossand and viable scarfers in the tier this can be handled, just gotta remove roserade as a partner for this one.. magmortar cause nobody is running fire resists. Think, again, getting rid of roserade will make other fire checks more appealing. Also I love fighting types, all really nice here with their own perks.

Cheers!
 

MZ

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That vote we've been talking about happened!. Roserade is banned, not super surprising given the level of anti-Rose sentiment from most of the community and council. On the flipside nobody is super worried about Archeops and Toxicroak yet, termi is willing to call for a suspect now and maybe more people will join her but we'll wait and see.
Virizion is something we're still pretty split on, the simple majority of 5/8 members believes some kind of action is necessary but it's not the strongest call we could have had. I think we will go ahead with starting the suspect this Sunday, we still have a majority and enough community sentiment but I'm going to take the next day to talk it over with council and see if there are strong no suspect positions. If you're very against a Virizion suspect, this would be the time to speak up.
 
I have never found Virizion particularly threatening, largely because if you're weak Virizion then Roserade or anothet Fighting type will destroy your team any way.

I don't think a suspect test is necessary but would be happy to see one happen.
 
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