Metagame np: PU Stage 4 - October All Over (Throh Remains Banned!)

[Optical Real]

So I made multiple points within Tect's video, but I decided to highlight some of my opinion's with a post. In my mind it is not a question of Throh being broken, rather a question of if it's reintroduction into the tier will be beneficial towards a healthier meta game.

With regards to Throh improving the viability of balance and semi-stall play styles, I believe Throh still lacks the ability to aid cores that are currently being stressed by wall-breakers such as Exeggutor. This fearsome breaker will still have the ability to tear apart cores and make balance and semi-stall sub-optimal play-styles. This being said I do believe the addition of both a Knock-off absorber and spammer into the tier offers an interesting circumstance that raises the question of does the positive attributes outweigh the negatives? In my mind the pros outweigh the cons, as PU can be a very eviolite reliant tier. Therefore, by having a very splashable absorber, it can negate some of the pressure that cores and walls endure throughout the course of a match.

This being said I think Throh will become a very meta-defining pokemon, in that most teams will find themselves using a Throh as a knock-off absorber. Is this healthier than the current meta-game? I believe it is not, as Exeggutor is one of the main wall-breakers and it will become an even greater threat to Balance and Semi-stall play-styles because, in all probability, Throh will be used on these teams due to the utility it provides these play-styles. All in all, at this point, Throh does not improve the health of the meta game but simply changes it a more Throh dependent one, making it possibly worse off than before.

 

[MZ]

Alright, I normally post a lot but I've been fairly quiet because I'm really torn on this suspect. Throh is certainly not broken, but it's a very solid Pokemon that you can fit on tons of teams with a variety of sets to just fuck with offensive playstyles (or bulkier ones if CB). Bulk Up is kinda trash and people should stop using it btw. Anyway, I just really hadn't decided on whether Throh was a good thing. It punishes offense by being hard to take down and switch into but encourages you to use things like Eggy and CB Dodrio that punish more defensive playstyles while being more mediocre vs offense. It sorta tears the meta and makes building weirder. Throh also shares a lot of the issues with Machoke, it has more sets and isn't as crippled by knock and lefties helps longevity, but the main issues about how they punish teams are carried over. On the other hand I like it, it's fun to play with and I'm one of the few council members (I think? this is the general message I got from people) who doesn't think this meta is way worse. Throh never felt broken or overly obnoxious in an actual game, and it was kinda tame a lot of the time, lacking a decent switch-in opportunity versus plenty of teams without some spdef investment and being shitty and weak with it. In the same way that it makes teambuilding weirder in a difficult way, it also helps check lots of stuff and isn't too hard to fit on teams and be good. I'm really tired right now, this may be incoherent and there is a good chance I change my mind when we vote. But as of now I'm leaning towards leaving this thing banned. PU simply lacks the appropriate fighting resists, and the way it forces offensive teams to run colbur psychics and murkrow every time and bulkier teams to start slapping on air slash pelipper while still putting tons of pressure on every single playstyle regardless of any checks it may have is just too much. I enjoy throh, and I wouldn't even mind a re-retest, likely not for a year or something until some changes happen as we won't get too many better fighting checks in the foreseeable future, but right now this needs to stay out of the tier for it to be healthy. Hopefully this doesn't have something obviously stupid in it.

 

[Dundies]

I've also been pretty quiet about this subject since I've been on vacation for the past week, but I figure I'll post my final thoughts on Throh as well. At first I thought Throh was more healthy for the metagame than anything, but my opinions have shifted. While bringing a Vigoroth counter to the tier is really helpful, and while Throh is much more pressured in this offensive of a meta, the negatives outweigh the positives here. Throh overall makes a lot of playstyles worse, and its honestly just too much to prepare for. The Storm Throw + Knock Off combination along with RestTalk is really only checked consistently by Colbur Psychics and Flying-types, which puts a huge restraint on teambuilding, even with mons like Colbur Exeggutor running around. Things like Pelipper can switch in, but are just worn down unless its running the very subpar Air Slash / Hurricane set. Honestly even with Throh in the tier, Vigoroth is still going to be broken, and I feel like that attests much more to Vigoroth being broken than Throh being healthy for the meta.

 

[trc]

the meta isn't worse for defensive teams at all, you can say all you want about how omg i can't kill the resttalk set when you are playing a tier where machoke does literally the same thing, and you don't complain about it at all outside of dynamic punch. throh isn't even hard to deal with at all, it's worn down really easily, the tier has so many pokemon that do at least 80% to it, it is not like everything in the meta needs a 100% switch in anyway. it's also slow as fuck. i have used a variety of teams in the throh metagame and without being overtly prepared i can't see it as broken at all, i actually become really confused when people talk about it like that

edit: 'subpar' lol flying stab pelipper is way better than u-turn anyway

 

[MZ]

It's not worse for just defensive teams it's worse for all teams. When you're facing a Throh it's worse, it's never dead weight or unlikely to get a kill or put in work in some other way. I don't particularly like Machoke either, but it's here and it's not really banworthy. Throh has the same negative characteristics, just moreso (see:previous posts) and it's easier to leave something banned than to ban it. I'm not saying it needs a 100% switch, it's certainly easy to check, but idt it's healthy and that post didn't really address how teams aren't massively pressured by it even when seriously prepared outside of saying "no they aren't" which obv won't go either way. Will question the whole "we have plenty of pokemon that do 80% to it" though, obviously if you it it super effectively it'll do a lot but p much all non SE attack isn't doing that much and with strong SE attacks the fact that it lives things like LO Mime Psychic is more impressive/relevant than how much it did.

 

[Raiza]

I think people at this point should just switch their focus away from the ''Throh is / isn't broken'' argument, we already addressed that with countless posts, and I think the majority of us agreed that Throh isn't broken at all. Though, deciding to unban Throh just because it isn't broken without considering the various effects it brings with its unbanning means plain ignoring the main reason Throh was retested at the start. Throh was retested because it was easier to bring down, and the tier ''needed'' an answer to Vigoroth. For me, we just took a misstep here: First of all, if we needed so badly an answer to Vigoroth, which was even considered an almost auto-win(not by my point of view) for the player that was using it, the most simple path of action that had to be taken was suspecting Vigoroth beforehand. Then, yes, Throh is easier to bring down, but only for offensive teams through offensive pressure, as the Specially Defensive spread can take on offensive teams decently too at times, but nothing on defensive teams is able to seriously threaten Throh or bring him down in reasonable time, especially if running a RestTalk set, unless you are running some dedicated answer such as Pelipper on every defensive team, which isn't taking down the Specially Defensive set, and will cause extreme over-centralization that will also be taken advantage of by offensive teams, since they can screw Pelipper pretty easily through Stealth Rock pressure and presence of plenty of wallbreakers that shred through the bird.

Machoke, while being similiar to Throh, isn't nearly efficient as it when running a RestTalk set, because of being reliant on Eviolite for bulk, and not having access to things such as Circle Throw, which is devasting against defensive teams along with Toxic Spikes to wear them down for a cleaner, is pretty big. Machoke is a big pain in the ass for defensive teams because of its All-Out Attacker set and its lack of switch-ins and ways to be dealt with when facing slow paced teams such as Stall or defensive-ish teams, but adding an alternative to it such as Throh isn't going to help them at all, as Choice Band(this can also blow up Pelipper) / Bulk Up Throh can also be really annoying to defensive teams as well as when it is running a more defensive set. So, to end it, I don't see the point of unbanning Throh, since it doesn't help defensive teams at all, as it actually is hard to deal with for themselves, and it doesn't even help playstyles such as balanced against offensive teams anymore given it is checked pretty handily by things such as Exeggutor and other offensive powerhouses.

 

[ShuckleDeath]

I like Dundies first thought Throh was over all healthy for the tier. After seeing some compelling posts my thoughts have started to waver a bit. With all that said I still am leaning to the Unban side, but it is still a tough decision. I feel like ResTalk Throh is not too hard to break, you just need to prepare, I also feel like you don't need too centralize to do it. I just think in a tier where a good number of bulky Mons carry Eviolite, and our best Knockoff absorber happens to run Eviolite (I have literally never seen Banded Machoke) it just is a big boon, for me. Throh himself is a good user of Knockoff but I just feel its not a big issue as because Knockoff will still be a relevant move with or with out Throh, and it is a big help to support are numerous amount of NFE's to have this kind of support with out being neutered completely.

 

[g]

Haven't posted yet because i was unsure really about what to vote and what i feel about having Throh in the tier and to address a few things that have been repeated over and over. The positives have already been said and clearly having something that can absorb Knock Off for all kinds of teams (which also means an additional check to Pokemon such as Pawniard, for example) and that has an amazing amount of bulk and staying power can go a long way in terms of role compression and in general to (soft) checking threats. The fact that it is also a surefire way to check Vigoroth is also something to take in mind but it for sure isn't a reason for which someone should decide if Throh has to stay or does not just like the argument I don't get that defensive teams struggle to kill this threat while it is very comparable to Rest + Sleep Talk Machoke in terms of staying power so that is definitely not something I will consider in my vote as well.
Throh also doesn't make any playstyle more or less viable or good in the current metagame to be honest since it is a Pokemon that can fit on any kind of team very well (balanced and bulky offense mainly as a phazer/shuffler and even as a wallbreaker) and honestly does fine against most playstyles without exceeding against any so the polarization caused by Throh can also be ignored.
What i have thought it is that Throh can be quite hard to deal with just because of its nature of being a Fighting-type with Knock Off, a generally incredibly hard combination to switch in due to the synergy and nature of the moves (Knock Off helps in removing the raw bulk of Pokemon hit neutrally) and the only reason i see to ban that is because it is quite hard to switch into and take down (not impossible mind you) since answers to it (which you have to run no matter what just like you have an electric/water/psychic/ice resist lol) cant really be deeply explored in a 15 days time spawn and a decision like this in two weeks is definitely quite rushed but what can we do.
I will probably vote do not ban since, assured that it is not broken in a vacuum as most people agree, I feel like its presence in the metagame is not big or polarizing enough for me to consider it a bad addition and since i honestly think the answers to this actually exist but from my stance i can definitely agree with some points made by people who will vote differently for me.

 

[Grim]

Like Raiza said I think we can all agree that Throh isn't 'broken', and the main thing opinions are mixed about is whether it would have a positive or negative effect on the tier. Personally, I don't think Throh has any more of a bad effect on the tier than Machoke which definitely isn't banworthy, even if Dynamic Punch shenanigans can be annoying. I've seen people say that it makes the gap in playstyle viability between offense and 'stall' bigger by adding yet another hard to wall threat, but considering it's just going to replace Machoke again, it's not like we have another fatbreaker to deal with. In fact, I think Machoke is actually harder to deal with for bulky teams, taking into account its access to No Guard as well as a strong STAB in Close Combat when running Guts. It also is a more than decent option on those bulky teams as a specially defensive wall, reliable Knock Off absorber, and Vigoroth counter. I think its negative impact on the meta is an exaggerated argument and it doesn't truly benefit one playstyle more than others. I enjoyed almost all of my games in the suspect meta and when I didn't it wasn't because of Throh, so no issues with the metagame being shitty or centralizing from me. I think that, overall, Throh is a healthy addition to PU and I will be voting unban.

 

[Magnemite]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pu-stage-4-suspect-voting.3557597/

voting thread is up

 

[ManOfMany]

We are hopefully getting a lot of cool drops Friday due to the Mega Shift. Not all of them will be viable, but some of them will be quite interesting pokemon. I've outlined what I think the best sets may become below.

Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
- Earthquake/Heal Bell/Substitute/Cotton Guard

Offensive DD Altaria is kind of bad and also really outclassed by Fraxure, so a more bulky DD set would be viably. Altaria can abuse its resistances (look, a reliable Monferno counter!), bulk, and Roost to set up vs defensive Pokemon like Throh. Unfortunately it's really weak from the start. I haven't narrowed down the EV spread yet, but this lets it 2HKO Grumpig at +1 and outspeed the Simis at +1. Substitute can turn Stunfisk and other stuff into set-up bait, Earthquake is for Steels, and Cotton Guard is pretty Gimmicky but can be useful against more physically oriented teams.

Altaria @ Choice Specs
Ability: Natural Cure/Cloud Nine
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Moonblast/Tailwind/HP Ground

Probably Altaria's best set. Specs Draco Meteor hits ridiculously hard, even off of base 70 SpA. Altaria can abuse its resistances to get into play safely and then drop a nuke. Pretty simple. The last moveslot is open for either Moonblast, to consistently beat Rest-Talk Throh, Tailwind for the teammates, or HP ground for Probopass.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Simipour: 339-399 (116.4 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO HOLY SHIT

Altaria @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- Heal Bell

Based on Special Defog Mence in UU, this could probably work as well as the Choice Specs set and I can see it being popular among the best players. It doesn't get all the OHKOs Specs does, but still hits really hard and has the survivability in Roost and ability to support the team with Heal Bell.

Camerupt @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature/Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power/Earthquake
- Will-O-Wisp/Roar

SpD Camerupt is a solid rock Stealth Rock setter, that has a niche vs other SR users with its ability to severely threaten Grass Types with Lava Plume and also its blocking electric types most of the time. (Unlike Stunfisk, it counters Rotom-F as well). However, it still isn't all that bulky and pretty vulnerable on the physical side.

Camerupt @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rock Polish
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Probably not all that good, but Rock Polish Camerupt can be a nasty surprise for those expecting a defensive set. With a Timid Nature, it can outspeed Zebstrika, but Timid LO Fire Blast is still super powerful, OHKOing Ursaring after rocks. And Timid LO Earth Power should not be underestimated either, OHKOing Floatzel after rocks. It can grab setup opportunities on some common pokemon like HP ice Zebstrika, but the problem is it is revenge killed easily by scarfers except Scarf Fridge and also very priority weak.

 

[TONE]

We are hopefully getting a lot of cool drops Friday due to the Mega Shift. Not all of them will be viable, but some of them will be quite interesting pokemon. I've outlined what I think the best sets may become below.

Banette @ Life Orb
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp/Hidden Power Fighting/Pursuit
- Shadow Claw/Sucker Punch/Gunk Shot

Banette is a pretty interesting wallbreaker. It has good coverage and the coveted Knock Off, although it hits only moderately hard. Though it is slow, Shadow Sneak and even Sucker Punch let it threaten offense as it does 45-50% to mons like Simipour and Zebstrika. Will-O-Wisp and Hidden Power Fighting could be used to hit Pawniard (HP fighting OHKOs despite the -SpA nature), and Gunk Shot hits Tangela and Clefairy really hard. Pursuit lets it get rid of Kadabra's Sash and trap pokemon like Grumpig. Banette faces competition from Dusknoir and is super frail so it won't likely see a lot of usage but looks to be still usable on some teams as a strong priority abuser.

Ampharos @ Assault Vest
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast

Ampharos has great stats and access to a powerful Slow Volt Switch, but it's main problem lies in the lack of resistances it has. Assault Vest patches up this problem on the Special side and lets it switch into common special attackers and Volt out, maintaining momentum.
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Ampharos: 129-152 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Ampharos @ Life Orb
Ability: Static
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Agility
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Agility Ampharos can sweep some offensive teams lategame, thanks to its huge SpA and good bulk for setting up. However it still appears to be mediocre as it faces competition from Raichu and is walled by common electric checks like Stunfisk.

Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
- Earthquake/Heal Bell/Substitute/Cotton Guard

Offensive DD Altaria is kind of bad and also really outclassed by Fraxure, so a more bulky DD set would be viably. Altaria can abuse its resistances (look, a reliable Monferno counter!), bulk, and Roost to set up vs defensive Pokemon like Throh. Unfortunately it's really weak from the start. I haven't narrowed down the EV spread yet, but this lets it 2HKO Grumpig at +1 and outspeed the Simis at +1. Substitute can turn Stunfisk and other stuff into set-up bait, Earthquake is for Steels, and Cotton Guard is pretty Gimmicky but can be useful against more physically oriented teams.

Altaria @ Choice Specs
Ability: Natural Cure/Cloud Nine
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Moonblast/Tailwind/HP Ground

Probably Altaria's best set. Specs Draco Meteor hits ridiculously hard, even off of base 70 SpA. Altaria can abuse its resistances to get into play safely and then drop a nuke. Pretty simple. The last moveslot is open for either Moonblast, to consistently beat Rest-Talk Throh, Tailwind for the teammates, or HP ground for Probopass.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Simipour: 339-399 (116.4 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO HOLY SHIT

Altaria @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- Heal Bell

Based on Special Defog Mence in UU, this could probably work as well as the Choice Specs set and I can see it being popular among the best players. It doesn't get all the OHKOs Specs does, but still hits really hard and has the survivability in Roost and ability to support the team with Heal Bell.

Camerupt @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature/Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power/Earthquake
- Will-O-Wisp/Roar

SpD Camerupt is a solid rock Stealth Rock setter, that has a niche vs other SR users with its ability to severely threaten Grass Types with Lava Plume and also its blocking electric types most of the time. (Unlike Stunfisk, it counters Rotom-F as well). However, it still isn't all that bulky and pretty vulnerable on the physical side.

Camerupt @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rock Polish
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Probably not all that good, but Rock Polish Camerupt can be a nasty surprise for those expecting a defensive set. With a Timid Nature, it can outspeed Zebstrika, but Timid LO Fire Blast is still super powerful, OHKOing Ursaring after rocks. And Timid LO Earth Power should not be underestimated either, OHKOing Floatzel after rocks. It can grab setup opportunities on some common pokemon like HP ice Zebstrika, but the problem is it is revenge killed easily by scarfers except Scarf Fridge and also very priority weak.

You could've waited til Friday ya know. Plus it isn't even a guarantee we get Banette or Ampharos.

 

[ManOfMany]

You could've waited til Friday ya know. Plus it isn't even a guarantee we get Banette or Ampharos.

1 1/2 days is a very long time ;_; I'll delete the Ampharos and Banette sets if we don't get them

 

[Magnemite]

Banette and Ampharos are XY megas that are more than one tier above PU so they are not dropping this shift

also rp camerupt is garbdix

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Just as a reference, these are the mons PU is getting (Bolded ones I think will be relevant):
Altaria
Audino
Beedrill
Camerupt
Glaile
Loppuny

Really, only the first two here and Camerupt to a lesser extent look like they would do good here

 

[Mistress Remilia]

Just as a reference, these are the mons PU is getting (Bolded ones I think will be relevant):
Altaria
Audino
Beedrill
Camerupt
Glaile
Loppuny

Really, only the first two here and Camerupt to a lesser extent look like they would do good here

Eeeeh, Glalie could become a thing.
He was an okay spiker back when he was with us.
Now he has rougher competition, but still has small attributes such as the combo of Explosion + Priority.

 

[Raiza]

We talked about Camerupt yesterday in room and it doesn't look like it's too good. Its defenses and HP base stats are pretty mediocre for a wall, so it needs like full SDef investments with Calm to even not get 2HKOd Choice Scarf Rotom-F's Blizzard, not counting Stealth Rocks up, and if they are, it is 2HKOd by probably almost every offensive threat out there. Rock Polish just looks terrible and a worse set up sweeper than Regice overall, worse coverage, worse bulk, worse Speed which is so terrible that it gets even outsped at +2 by Floatzel if not running Timid, but even then there's the threat of Aqua Jet and it is stopped by most Choice Scarf users if not running Modest anyway. It is also hard to set up because Water-types are everywhere, while Regice finds it much easier because Fire- and Fighting-types are kind of rare apart from Monferno / Machoke, but even then Regice is able to KO most of its checks if they are slighly weakened, while Camerupt heavily struggles against things such as Politoed and Pelipper even if its at like 60-70%. The best set I could see being used for this is Choice Specs I guess, it actually has nice Special Attack and can find some ways to spam Fire Blast / Earth Power, such as when checking Electric-types such as Zebstrika and Electrode, which I don't think will run HP Water most of the time, as the trade-off to hit both Dragon- and Ground-types, especially when Altaria drops, is better than only hitting like Camerupt. Also pretty sure Nasty Plot Raichu destroys Camerupt with Focus Blast at +2 Special Attack.

Glalie will be probably good, Explosion + Taunt + Ice Beam STAB is an enough niche to be viable on Hyper Offensive teams that want entry hazard stacking without having something overly passive such as Whirlipede or Venipede, that get abused by every Substitute user and also can't prevent the opponent from entry hazard stacking himself. I guess lack of Toxic Spikes is something to account for, but I feel Glalie will still be the preferred choice on teams that don't need Toxic Spikes pressure to deal with bulkier Pokemon, especially since we have plenty of wallbreakers that can get the job done and defensive teams aren't that popular at the moment and probably won't be in the near future.

 

[Magnemite]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pu-stage-4-suspect-voting.3557597/page-3#post-6553565

Throh remains banned from PU! Thanks to all who participated!

Tagging The Immortal to update the ladder

 

[MaroGod]

Rip throh

Anyway, Altaria+Camerupt have been covered and many only seem to find those two to be of any sort of relevance due to the other mons facing competition but it does not mean they will be hopeless as they all have a unique niche and are given doubt. Keep in mind this is not to over-sell there capabilities but shed a little more light for those who just look at there stats and compare to one of the better pokemon.

Lopunny.

Lopunny is one of the more overlooked pokemon among the drops due to the amount of normal types Pu has such as Stoutland,Dodrio and Vigoroth however the rabbit seems to have a few tricks that would make it an asset on teams such as access to Healing Wish and Multiple support options.

Stats

65 HP
76 Atk
84 Def
54 SpA
96 SpD
105 Spe

Nice natural defense crippled by Hp and Amazing speed crippled by mediocre attack its overall stats are bad and good with its attack thankfully being usable with high base power moves such as STAB Frustration and HJK.

Sets

Lopunny @ Life Orb
Ability: Limber
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- High Jump Kick
- Healing Wish
- Status / Baton Pass / Encore

Lopunny @ Choice Band
Ability: Limber
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- High Jump Kick
- Healing Wish
- Baton Pass

Lopunny @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Limber
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- High Jump Kick
- Healing Wish
- Switcheroo / Ice Punch

The three sets shown are what i personally believe would be the most usable. Due to Lopunnys mediocre attack stat a Life Orb is very much warranted to improve Lopunnys overall damage output, Frustration and HJK both hit very hard and allows Lopunny to possibly be a decent Rker thanks to its speed. Unable to be a breaker lopunny instead will focus on being a Support Rker with its 4th slot being the most optional as Stab,HJK,HW are all required as of current knowledge but the overall options the 4th slot has is quite interesting with Toxic,Thunder Wave,Baton Pass,Encore.

JollyBand/AdamantScarf also seems optional. Both run similar to the Life Orb set except CB lands a few important OHKO/2HKOs Baton Pass is somewhat more essential imo for the ability to pivot out once your opponent realizes what item you are holding. Scarf seems like an odd option on an already fast pokemon but AdamantScarf can surprise faster threats such as other Scarfers,Zeb/Trode,Pluff ect although they will need around 30%/35% chip for the kill it still can be nice for both surprise factor and cripple with switcheroo (Ice Punch is slashed for the guarantee on Jumpluff and Altaria depending on set)

Glalie.
Glalie is something mentioned previously on this thread and the main reasoning for its relevance is the Suicide Lead set it provides despite being a one-trick pony in this regard it is something that will keep Glalie relevant.

Stats

80 HP
80 Atk
80 Def
80 SpA
80 SpD
80 Spe

Slightly irrelevant but ill leave this here for newer players who want know. Base 80 stats all around you will be focusing on two and that is Speed and Special Attack.

Set

Glalie @ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Explosion
- Freeze-Dry

This set is what will be keeping Glalie relevant. Spike-Stack is an effective strategy in Pu due to how mediocre our removal is with all of them being defoggers and our two "viable" spinners being pressured in an offensive meta. This set will probably be fairly effective due to the fact Glalie can reliably set 1/2 spikes and use one of its other moves to cripple (Taunt) or damage (Freeze-Dry/Explosion) the opposing pokemon. A slight mention of its ability Inner Focus should be mentioned since although its not an amazing abliity it does allow Glalie to set a spike on fake out users thinking they can break your sash and kill you off remaining spike free.


Edit-

Beedrill.
Beedrill is a pokemon a lot of players say possess no niche what so ever over the likes of Ninjask and Venipede and to an extent this is true but there are some small factors the original bee has over them.

Stats

65 HP
90 Atk
40 Def
45 SpA
80 SpD
75 Spe

Beedrill is obviously only ment to be played offensively relying on attack and speed as well as its natural Special bulk however it lacks the speed of Ninjask/Venipede which both have either naturally or ability wise Beedrill is able to compensate with its slight diversity the two bugs do not have over it.

Sets

Beedrill @ Choice Band
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Drill Run

Beedrill @ Insect Plate
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Filler

These two sets both have something over Beedrills competition first i will focus on the first set which is JollyBand.

JollyBand Beedrill was something myself and Tect talked about when we discussed the drops and when Beedrill was brought up we both were at a lost until Tect brought up this. JollyBand lacks slight power over Ninjask which can run Adamant however it possess a much better movepool over Ninjask such as its access to stronger secondary stab,Knock Off and Drill Run all of which take on notable stops to Ninjask the biggest example being Probopass and Stunfisk which Beedrill has the ability to OHKO due to Sniper+Drill Run. Knock Off is also very useful in...well knocking off items which is another benefit to mention also not having a quad rock weakness is worth a mention.

Next, Offensive T-Spike setter is something Beedrill possess over Venipede in its ability to actually damage the opponent and set-up hazards through out the game U-Turn+Knock Off is mandatory since those are beneficial to Beedrill>Venipede the last slot however is free of choice on what your teams requires. You can Go Sniper+Drill Run again or Tailwind also Poison Jab for dual stab.

Ninjask/Venipede will still be the better options but these few factors that allow Beedrill to maintain some kind of viability.

 

[ManOfMany]

We talked about Camerupt yesterday in room and it doesn't look like it's too good, its defenses and HP base stats are pretty mediocre for a wall, so it needs like full SDef investments with Calm to even not get 2HKOd Choice Scarf Rotom-F's Blizzard, not counting Stealth Rocks up, and if they are, it is 2HKOd by probably almost every offensive threat out there. Rock Polish just looks terrible and a worse set up sweeper than Regice overall, worse coverage, worse bulk, worse Speed which is so terrible that it gets even outsped at +2 by Floatzel, if not running Timid, but even then there's the threat of Aqua Jet and it is stopped by most Choice Scarf users if not running Modest anyway, also hard to set up because Water-types are everywhere, while Regice finds it much easier because Fire- and Fighting-types are kind of rare apart from Monferno / Machoke, but even then Regice is able to KO most of its checks if they are slighly weakened, while Camerupt heavily struggles against things such as Politoed and Pelipper even if its at like 60-70%(HP Electric without Modest is not dealing much damage even to Pelipper if it's running Special Defensive spread). The best set I could see being used for this is Choice Specs I guess, it actually has nice Special Attack and can find some ways to spam Fire Blast / Earth Power, such as when checking Electric-types such as Zebstrika and Electrode, which I don't think will run HP Water most of the time, as the trade-off to hit both Dragon- and Ground-types, especially when Altaria drops, is better than only hitting like Camerupt. Also pretty sure Nasty Plot Raichu destroys Camerupt with Focus Blast at +2 Special Attack.

Glalie will be probably good, Explosion + Taunt + Ice Beam STAB is an enough niche to be viable on Hyper Offensive teams that want entry hazard stacking without having something overly passive such as Whirlipede or Venipede, that get abused by every Substitute user and also can't prevent the opponent from entry hazard stacking himself. I guess lack of Toxic Spikes is something to account for, but I feel Glalie will still be the preferred choice on teams that don't need Toxic Spikes pressure to deal with bulkier Pokemon, especially since we have plenty of wallbreakers that can get the job done and defensive teams aren't that popular at the moment and probably won't be in the near future.

Although I doubt RP Camerupt will be anywhere as good as RP Regice, I really dislike some of your points here. You are somehow arguing that the collective usage of Pelipper/Politoed (btw 252 SpA Life Orb Camerupt Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 265-317 (82 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) is more than the usage of Machoke, Metang, Monferno, Rapidash, and Ninetales? That doesn't make sense. And I don't see how being stopped by Floatzel if running Modest is relevant because it most certainly will be running Timid anyway. What you said about priority Aqua Jet and Choice Scarf users is true anyway but no one is denying that. Anyway, we'll see when the mons drop.

I also don't think that Choice Specs will be better than SpD sets, although it gets in for free if the opponent has an electric type on their team without HP water and can spam a move, it is still really outclassed by other faster pokemon like Simisear. SpD can at least provide utility to teams with Stealth Rock, and are more bulky with investment than you think. (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Camerupt: 229-270 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Although, Surf is probably better than Focus Blast on NP Raichu tbh.

Glalie will be ok. Hyper Offense teams can usually prevent it from getting multiple spikes (simply by 2HKOing) but it can be scary if it gets in without rocks on the field when it is up against a slower pokemon. Beating all relevant Defog users is also really cool. I don't remember it too well from before, but it was never too hard to deal with though because of its predictability.

Lopunny actually doesn't seem too bad at all. It hits hard, is fast, and has utility with Healing Wish. And Limber is neat. Of course, it is really outclassed by Ursaring and can do absolutely nothing to Ghosts, but it won't be unviable. Also AV Klutz Switcheroo is fun

 

[g]

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