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April tier shifts are out! PU lost a couple very common pokemon in Talonflame and Vaporeon, along with some more niche but still solid options like Braviary and our most used hail setters + abusers. Talonflame is the biggest loss out of all of these. It was able to be fit on every team, and always did something for the team. Whether it was your defogger, or a general pivot with u turn, Talonflame was easily the most viable pokemon in PU. This felt like it deserved its own new NP thread, as the tier will be very different. It was discussed in the previous NP thread here but, to reiterate, talk with the council will be had regarding Virizions place in the tier without Talonflame.
Let us know your first impressions of what you think, what pokemon do you think will benefit from these changes?
Winners
Everyone's been talking about it, Virizion is the clear standout here. With Talonflame gone, teams will be hard pressed to rely harder on Poison-types (Garbodor, Weezing, Golbat) and bulky Grass-types (Whimsicott, Gourgeist) to deal with it. It can justify running Zen Headbutt more often now that Talonflame isn't an issue, it can run Calm Mind sets more frequently now that it doesn't need to worry about Talonflame. Mixed sets will continue to go ham without a faster, common Pokemon holding it back. I'd definitely like to hear what the generally community thinks on whether Virizion is unhealthy, now that Talonflame has actually departed.
Without Flame Body Talonflame around, Tsareena has a lot less in the way of repercussions when spamming Power Whip. Choiced sets only get better now. If Virizion goes, this Pokemon will likely rise as a much more potent offensive Pokemon. Trevenant also benefits from being to spam Wood Hammer, Horn Leech, etc without worrying about Flame Body, albeit admittedly to a much lesser extent (Natural Cure and access to Poltergeist). It also appreciates Braviary leaving. Flapple doesn't have to worry about Flame Body anymore when using Sucker Punch or Outrage, or worry about Talonflame revenging, and can spam its attacks a whole lot easier.
Without Talonflame being on every second team, these Pokemon will flourish. Other checks will of course rise in usage (assuming Charizard, specially defensive Togedemaru), but without Talonflame being so prevalent, one can only assume Ribombee and Choice Specs Whimsicott will benefit immensely.
Charizard will of course rise in usage now being the premier Fire/Flying of the metagame. The speed tier of course hinders it a lot as it can't revenge or situationally switch into Virizion. Having no Flame Body hurts a lot as well. But Charizard of course has other things going for it, its offensive presence and potential movepool, its ability to run far more viable set up offensive sets. It can slot into Talonflame's slot on a lot of new balance teams just due to its typing and stats alone.
Defensive Steel-types like support Togedemaru and Steel Silvally will only get better as a means of checking Ribombee and Whimsicott. Yea.
Vaporeon leaving helps Omastar immensely. One of its greatest checks beforehand, Omastar has one less Pokemon it has to worry about getting a 50/50 right against. Omastar however does dislike Talonflame leaving, as it was formerly one of its greatest opportunities to set up. Kingler benefits immensely as Vaporeon was formerly its greatest check. Offensive water-types in general appreciate Vaporeon leaving a ton.
While this isn't a direct replacement by any means, Jellicent is a bulky Water Absorb Water-type that can sponge hits from offensive Water-types. Tangela also helps versus Kingler and Kabutops, who now lose a reliable check; however, it cannot adequately answer specially offensive threats.
Notable Loser
Any potential niche this Pokemon had before is sufficiently depleted. Unlike Heliolisk, it outspeeds Archeops, but that would never be enough to justify usage over it. Please do not use Jolteon!
It's been a while since I've done one of these, but I wanted to provide some thoughts/input on how I think the new meta will progress now that the PU tier has gone through some considerably drastic changes thanks to the tier shift. Before I do that however, I just want to quickly reflect on the Talonflame meta and how losing Smogon Birb in the builder will significantly impact the tier in honestly a quite positive manner.
Talonflame was undoubtedly the tier's premier staple and provided the player with answers to just about any question in the builder. Needed some defensive utility? Use Talonflame. Needed a generic Fighting check? Use Talonflame. Needed a generic Fairy check? Use Talonflame. Birb also provided speed control, pivoting capabilities, a Defogger, an offensive check to some of the most common setup sweepers in the tier, Flame Body punishment for our other pivots like Togedemaru, and overall longevity that nothing else in PU could ultimately hold a candle to respectively whilst maintaining all of these other niches. It is, now was, and probably will always be remembered truthfully as Gen8 PU's best mon. So, seeing this mon rise to NU didn't come as a shock to me, but rather a disappointment because there simply is no mon that can do what Talonflame does. That isn't to say the tier will be left in shambles however, with its departure. As it has been commonly trending that Virizion has now become troublesome for the tier, or predictably so, with Talonflame gone this will ultimately lead to a hopeful suspect test / quick-ban for Virizion in the near future. I don't want to dwell on this subject too much, as that was discussed in the previous NP thread, however the reason I'd prefer a quick-ban is largely for the success and future involvement PU can have in future tournament scenes and ultimately because Virizion is just far too powerful a mon for the tier, especially with losing its most active check both offensively and defensively. Use a BW favorite of Unaware Swoobat for your Viriz answer since they have no reason for Stone Edge now kek.
So TL;DR, a Talonflame-less meta will actively push out such an offensive powerhouse and most definitely open up the builder in creative ways again, as the previous meta was largely cookie-cutter, almost identical, and to be quite honest, boring in terms of teams you'd commonly see at a competitive level.
As for Vaporeon, this was PU's go-to bulky Water and provided a defensive backbone that many other mons failed to compete with. It provided a solid defensive foundation with Virizion checks lacking in recovery thanks to its fat Wishes like Garbodor, but even more so a defensive check to pretty much most physical attackers in the tier not named Toxicroak, as well as provided a bulky check to common special attackers like Omastar. Similarly to Talonflame, Vaporeon was certainly an integral piece to the SS PU metagame, and will be quite missed as it could splash itself onto virtually all teamstyles thanks to its defensive success. However, with Vaporeon gone, this only opens a door for further experimentation in a brand new metagame and will enforce creativity in the builder, especially in teams lacking defensive checks to Omastar. At first glance, almost all offensive Water types received a massive buff with the departure of Vaporeon, and Omastar could perhaps become rather alarming.
One commonly suggested bulky Water replacement was Jellicent. However, it isn't as similar in design since Jellicent cannot contribute to teams with healing/cleric support. Instead, it can provide status support thanks to Will-O-Wisp as well as provide teams with additional immunities. However it is not as consistent as Vaporeon in terms of an overall defensive mon since it is more susceptible to status and being chipped down much more easily without Leftovers.
1v1 Scenario of Omastar vs Jellicent
+3 252+ SpA Omastar Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 343-405 (84.9 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Jellicent Hex (65 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Omastar: 123-145 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
This scenario is regarding Jellicent's most common moves and is under ideal scenarios, however Jellicent isn't a reliable defensive check to Omastar after a Shell Smash due to the possibility of being OHKOd with a +3 Meteor Beam. Although Meteor Beam can be played around and baited, this calc stills shows just how big the shoes are that Jellicent is trying to fill with taking Vaporeon's place. However, if the Meteor Beam can be predicted, Jellicent can 2HKO with Shadow Ball after a Shell Smash or surprise with a Giga Drain for an OHKO as well as some added recovery.
Now, onto the the new meta to see who I believe profited the most/least with these shifts.
Winners
Virizion
This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Virizion is for the most part universally accepted as being far too much for the current tier, and was limited to a certain degree from being too much before simply due to Talonflame being omnipresent. However, now with it gone, setup Virizion (as Chloe mentioned) has certainly gained popularity once again and can still go mixed 4atk or mixed 3atk + Synthesis in order to bypass its remaining defensive checks, especially since the only two left who are faster naturally are Ribombee and Whimsicott. Garbodor and Weezing have lost their beloved Wish partner in Vaporeon; who was a natural invitation for Virizion most of the time, so now their limited recovery means they are more susceptible to being worn down much more easily. Yes, there are still other defensive checks like Golbat, Charizard, and Shiinotic, but all of these can be easily pressured with proper prediction, Knock Off support, or simply beaten by Virizion itself. And as for offensive checks, such as Choice Scarf Mesprit, Choice Scarf Unfezant, Archeops, Ribombee, Whimsicott, and Froslass: offensively dancing around Virizion seems to be the most effective way of handling it. However, none of them can reliably switch into Virizion without proper prediction.
Setup Sweepers
Scyther has without a doubt received a massive boost with Talonflame gone and quite honestly has gone under the radar on people's lookout. I think this is one of the tier's most threatening up-and-coming offensive setup sweepers with a set revolving around Swords Dance and U-turn. Not only is it quite fast, but it is a notable offensive check to Virizion lacking Stone Edge/Air Slash and an offensive check to Toxicroak. It also can actively punish switch-ins trying to deter setup with Knock Off into U-turn (example being Knocking a Regirock/Gigalith/Gunfisk's Leftovers or Sandaconda's Rocky Helmet). And on top of this, just by having Knock Off as an option, it can deter its offensive checks like Choice Scarf Togedemaru or HDB Charizard from ever wanting to risk switching in on a Swords Dance or it can punish its frail offensive checks like Lycanroc, Archeops, Heliolisk, or Galvantula.
Truth be told, Scyther is easily one of the mons I am most excited for in the upcoming meta. A setup sweeper who can punish its switch-ins with item disruption or by gaining momentum versus them with STAB U-turn is something PU hasn't been able to reliably experience thanks to Talonflame on 99% of teams or Vaporeon being able to 50-50 the Wish vs Scald turns on the setup vs U-turn turns.
Similarly in the reasoning as Scyther for being a setup sweeper who appreciates the removal of a pesky Flame Body bird, Silvally forms are freed up a bit by not needing to carry Rock Slide as frequently (unless your name is Silvally-Fairy and you still need a way to hit Charizard). But overall Silvally has gotten a tad better, especially since Silvally-Ghost in particular is on the rise and can offensively threaten the tier's newest defensive Water in Jellicent.
As a setup sweeper, a Choice-locked wallbreaker, or a Sticky Web setter for offensive teams, this mon has received a significant buff with the loss of Talonflame and to a lesser extent Sandslash-Alola. As it was mandatory before, it is only even more required now that Ribombee must be accounted for when building teams. Silvally-Steel, Charizard, SpDef Togedemaru, and even some lesser common checks like Frosmoth or Golbat are all notable options.
Choice-Locked Grass-Type Wallbreakers
Trevenant, Tsareena, and Gourgeist in particular as being physically offensive Grass-types largely appreciate not having to risk Flame Body anymore and to the lesser extent, the removal of several key Ice-types being Vanilluxe and Aurorus, this simply frees them up for being some strong wallbreakers with excellent utility they provide teams. As for Whimsicott, its pretty much the exact same reasoning as Ribombee when it comes to being a Choice-locked wallbreaker. Has identical defensive checks, but must be accounted for when building teams. Eggy was already amazing, but now has even more freedom for spamming Leaf Storm instead of gambling Draco Meteors.
Physical Pivots
These guys now being freed up from having to risk Flame Body chances when U-turning just drastically increase their chances of being successful in the new meta. Additionally for Basculin, it has also lost a counter in Vaporeon, so this is a major buff to it as well, but still is faced with Jellicent and the Dry Skin users of Toxicroak and Heliolisk.
Offensive Water-Types
Short, sweet, and to the point, Vaporeon gone = these guys are freed up immensely. Both Kingler and Clawitzer have coverage for Jellicent whereas Omastar can dispose of it with minimal chip prior to nuking with Meteor Beam into Earth Power unless Jellicent is well-prepared with building adaptations such as Shadow Ball > Hex or teching Giga Drain.
Offensive Rock-Types
This mon didn't particularly get any better, however with how commonplace Ribombee will inevitably become, it is by no surprise Lycanroc will continue bringing teams an offensive check to handle Ribombee if it gets out of control.
Defensive Fire-Types
Although it may share a typing with Talonflame, these two aren't comparable in terms of everything they are needed to check. For example, Charizard isn't reliable as a Virizion check because the most notable feature about Talonflame was that it was not only faster than Virizion but it could even gain momentum with U-turn as they preserved Viriz. Unfortunately though, Charizard isn't faster naturally, meaning it is just simply Stone Edge food. However, Charizard is still reliable as a Ribombee, Whimsicott, and Toxicroak check as well as differentiates itself from Talonflame with Dragon Dance sets as a way to break through common counters such as Lanturn and Gigalith. It isn't by any means Talonflame, but it at least does the job.
Defoggers / Hazard Removal
Our hazard removal has just lost arguably one of its strongest competitors in Talonflame, meaning there is room to try out various forms of hazard removal. Imo, Lurantis is probably the best Defogger whereas Tsareena is the best Rapid Spinner since both of which threaten most of the hazard setters like Gigalith, Regirock, and Sandaconda but also provide Knock Off support and cleric capabilities or in Tsareena's case, pivoting capabilities versus counters like Weezing and Garbodor.
Some other notable hazard removal who also got inherently better with shifts include the lesser known Fighting-types in the tier, Gurdurr and Hitmontop. The former being able to provide Knock Off support and tank physical attackers whereas the latter can go a bit more offensive with Technician-boosted Triple Axels without being fearful of Flame Body anymore. And what's also nice about the two of these unlike Lurantis and Tsareena, Gurdurr and Hitmontop naturally invite defensive Ghosts like Palossand and Jellicent in freely; meaning they can easily cripple either Ghost with Toxic on the switch-in and both Fighting-types have excellent forms of priority for revenge-killing weakened threats like Omastar for example.
Unfezant
Honestly, this mon doesn't look too bad! A strong, offensive Flying-type who can run a Choice Scarf to check the powerful Grass-types on the rise as well as another form of Defog support if need be is certainly a unique role compression for the builder.
Losers
Hail Teams
Losing not only Aurorus and Vanilluxe as weather-setters is a major burden for the archetype, but with both Sandslash-Alola and Arctovish leaving, this simply means Hail teams will be completely nuked from having any competitive success in the upcoming SS PU metagame.
Defoggers
Defoggers themselves didn't get inherently worse, however with losing Talonflame and the not-so-popular Sandslash-Alola, this means we have simply less to choose from and our pickings before weren't entirely too stellar.
NU just banned Snow Warning and unbanned Aurora Veil. Which means we cannot use Snow Warning, but can use Aurora Veil now! Having to set up hail manually to get veil isn't very effective, especially with Gigalith being common, stopping the use of the move in its tracks. Anyways yeah heads up, Abomasnow can no longer use the ability Snow Warning, and Aurora Veil is now legal!
NU just banned Snow Warning and unbanned Aurora Veil. Which means we cannot use Snow Warning, but can use Aurora Veil now! Having to set up hail manually to get veil isn't very effective, especially with Gigalith being common, stopping the use of the move in its tracks. Anyways yeah heads up, Abomasnow can no longer use the ability Snow Warning, and Aurora Veil is now legal!
I dont understand why this affect PU... i know NU is a higher tier but why Aboma cant use Snow Warding??
To not being a 1-liner, the hazzard meta has change a bit in favor of spikes (Garbo and Weezing) bc the most common hazzard control are weak to Stab + they are the most notorius Virizion "checks" rn.
Aromatisse love not competing with Vaporeon as a cleric/wish passer.. A good core can be Garbodor + Aromattisee + Jellicent as a Spike stack balance defensive backbone.. Not 100% swear in ivs, evs and set but can help someone thinking how to build in a non-TalonVapo meta
Because bans on abilities affect the tiers below it. For example, NU banned drought back in May 2020. If PU hadn't already banned the ability ourselves, it would've made us not be able to use it either. In this case: Snow Warning is banned in NU, so it's also banned in PU, but is usable in RU and above
Well, since NU flat-out banned Snow Warning, chances are we'll be getting the Ice-types back next month (along with potentially Arctozolt). Thanks for nothing NU
Virizion loves not having the birds around for obvious reasons (It got banned lmao), and Charizard can rise up as the premier Fire-type without Talonflame around. On the flip side we can kiss any Abomasnow usage goodbye lol, which coupled with the loss of most of our Ice-types will benefit mons like Guzzlord and Eggy.
Also Frosmoth is more viable with Talonflame gone and less Ice-type competition, which is nice.
As this post and this post alluded to, council held a vote this week regarding what to do with Virizion with three options on the table: (1) do nothing, (2) hold another suspect vote for Virizion, and (3) quickban Virizion. It was a very unusual voting slate, as there were only 3 days coming in between a tier shift and the start of a major PU tournament (Open). So, as a council, we did our best to gauge community opinion before and after this shift and to further discuss what Virizion's presence looks like in a Talonflame-less meta. Ultimately, this shift made it much more difficult for players to reliably answer Virizion in teambuilder, which is a point that has been sufficiently covered by players like termi and Ktütverde in their posts here and here. Virizion no longer has enough checks (both defensive and offensive) available to answer it, and so PU council has decided to ban Virizion. Thank you all for your input! Council reasoning can be found in this post.
Welp, it was fun using you, but no one could deny that anyone could see this coming from a mile away. Have fun in NU, and say hi to the other PUBL members for us!
Moving back on topic here... As everyone is theorymonning on what’ll improve and what won’t, I guess I’ll share my thoughts.
THE WINNERS
Charizard may just be the biggest winner of these shifts and bans. With Talonflame gone, it no longer has to compete for a slot. Hail mons being gone is also a big boon for it, as while the playstyle and Vish were reduced to niche during the end of their days, they also completely cucked Zard and relegated it to a benchwarmer. Vape’s rise means that it doesn’t have to run T Punch anymore on DD and SD sets, freeing up a slot to run Roost or Dual Wingbeat or whatever. Offensive Defog sets are bound to get better, as PU is short on good hazard removal, and considering that we just lost two hazard removers in Talon and Alolaslash... Zard may not be a complete Talon replacement, but it sure is our best choice.
All of our spinners have enjoyed everything that has happened. Top appreciates Virirz getting the ban hammer and facing less competition as a Fighting-type, as well as Triple Axel being a bitch to switch into. Tsareena was already decent beforehand, but faced competition as a Grass from Virizion and Whimsicott, and with the former out of the way, it can now shine as the premier offensive Grass of PU without Talon’s omnipresence. And Claydol can actually do something without being complete setup fodder for SD/CM Virizion if it chooses to run Scorching Sands.
Rock-types too have benefited from these shifts, as well. Lycanroc has been rising in usage at the start of March, and for good reason too; it’s a scary wallbreaker that can punch holes in a team, or it can outright sweep with SD. Having a great speed tier is also one of Lycan’s more notable features, as it outspeeds many of our top offensive mons and can act as a reliable revenge killer. Oma has also been making waves (heh) due to how scary it is once it gets a Shell Smash up, being able to decimate unprepared teams that rely on Pokemon such as Lanturn as their Water checks. It has also been causing adaptations such as faster scarfers like Toge and Rotom to make bumps in usage to ensure that teams don’t autolose to it. Rhydon, while not as fast as either Lycanroc or Omastar, is still a force to be reckoned with, as it can find setup options surprisingly easy due to the amount of switches it forces, its great physical bulk that’s further bolstered by Eviolite, and EdgeQuake + Heat Crash being difficult to switch into. While the presence of Fightings will always put a damper on Rock-types, it would be unwise of one to underestimate them.
Slow breakers in general have gotten better due to a whole slew of fast(er) mons either leaving or getting banned (see a pattern?). Centiskorch already manhandles common defensive cores and goes ham against more defensive teams, so Talonflame leaving will no doubt improve it, and now Centi doesn’t have to worry about getting smacked by Talon and Virizion’s SE. Exeggutor is already very strong with PU’s lack of sturdy Grass and Dragon resists, and its OTR and Specs set were and still are strong enough to blow holes in unsuspecting teams, with OTR horrifying offense and Specs being mighty hard to switch into. And with one less Water Absorb and Grass mon leaving for NU, Kingler has less to worry about and more opportunities to setup & sweep.
i've built a decent amount of teams since tier shifts and virizion quickban & played a ton of games, and i'd say im starting to realize just how much talonflame held the tier together. it compressed a ton of roles that no other pokémon even comes close to doing, and it rising to nu leaves teams obligated to actually delegate roles to multiple mons instead of just slapping one and calling it a day. for example, if i needed a grass, fighting, and fairy check, i could simply add a talonflame on my team and be fine. the pokémon closest to doing everything talonflame did is charizard, but it's considerably slower and also no flame body kinda sucks. ig what i'm trying to say is that talonflame kept a ton of threats at bay, and now we're stuck with a "metagame" where the huge amount of threats is considerably more apparent. vaporeon leaving obviously didn't help either, as now threats like omastar and kingler are even better
from what i've experienced this just leads to a very mu-fishy meta where u have to hope u don't run into a threat that 6-0es u on preview, or run hyper offense (which is also mu-fishy lol). it's kinda hard to pinpoint exactly what's wrong with the metagame; it's just the huge amount of threats. omastar seems like the main one, and it's probably the closest thing we have to an unhealthy mon. i thought it was meh pre-tier shifts but archeops also got considerably better & it's getting apparent how annoying fast boots mons that can actually hit hard are. archeops also loves talonflame leaving, as taking advantage of charizard is just so much easier. wouldn't call it broken or anything of the sort but yeah i'd say it's up there. ribombee, especially quiver dance sets, is sooo much more threatening now unless u run into like, spdef togedemaru or steelvally / gigalith + wish support. but yeah, i wouldn't really be surprised if any of these threats became too much as the meta develops, less so archeops and ribombee
anyway, more of a general meta post: xatu is amazing rn and it'll probably continue being good as long as people refuse to use rhydon. the pivot set is pretty good at what it does; deny entry hazards and teleport into a wallbreaker or whatever. passimian is also really good as it has a much easier time clicking close combat / u-turn without talonflame. talonflame leaving also makes rock slide less needed, so it can run gunk shot more freely. fighting-types in general are better, especially gallade as people seem to be gravitating towards bulky poisons to answer fighting-types. the same goes for grass-types, really, especially alolan eggy. kingler is extremely scary unless u run into a bulky grass or druddigon, and rotom is actually not that bad!! so yea, try out these mons they're pretty epic
The shifts shook up the tier quite a bit, as we lost the #1 used and possibly very best PU mon in Talonflame to NU, while also losing one of the best defensive Pokemon in Vaporeon. Braviary, a solid offensive threat and one of the few viable Ghost resists in the meta, also moved up. Moreover, Arctovish, Aurorus, and Vanilluxe all left as well, although with NU's recent Snow Warning ban we most likely haven't seen the last of them.
After these shifts, it was clear to council that swift action was necessary to prevent the tier from becoming completely unbalanced, so Virizion was unanimously banned from PU by council vote as per this post.
So is everything well in the tier now? Regrettably, many council members still have concerns regarding the current state of the metagame, as even after the Virizion ban people have struggled to build reliable teams. The lack of Talonflame and Vaporeon to glue teams together have made the plethora of scary offensive threats in the tier feel really overwhelming, as trying to be well-prepped for one may leave you too vulnerable to the other. Moreover, the things that are meant to serve as glue on people's teams are often easily worn down (i.e. Scarf Togedemaru, Garbodor) and struggle not to succumb eventually to the things they're meant to check. Hence, there is a good chance we will have to return to quickban slates to deal with some of the more troublesome offensive threats in the tier. Several Pokemon were brought up in this context:
Omastar is probably the #1 concern within the council as of right now thanks to its incredibly deadly Shell Smash sweeper set. While it has less opportunity to set up and sweep with Talonflame gone, it very much appreciates Vaporeon being gone, as defensive counterplay to Omastar after a Shell Smash is almost nonexistent and circumstantial at best - notable exception being AV Guzzlord, which eats a +2 Ice Beam if it's healthy. Meanwhile, offensively your options are limited to certain priority users (Vacuum Wave Toxicroak, Mach Punch Hitmontop/Lee/Gurdurr, CB Lycanroc, Prankster Whimsi with Encore or Stun Spore) and a set of Scarfers with a base Speed of 90 or over (e.g. Togedemaru, Rotom, Gourgeist-Small), but the latter aren't even reliable thanks to Weak Armor letting Omastar boost its way past them. Still, setup opportunity can be hard to get, so not everyone is convinced Omastar is too much. Do you think the meta can adapt to Omastar?
On the topic of Water types, these two both really appreciate Vaporeon being gone as well, as they can fire off their high-powered moves with little worry. Kingler already was something of a rising star in the tier before the shifts happened, but with Vaporeon gone it has even less to worry about, as Liquidation smacks just about everything while the few Water immunities we have do not enjoy taking a Body Slam/Knock Off/High Horsepower. Maybe this will give rise to different counterplay like defensive Guzzlord, Ferroseed, bulky Gourgeist, or Tangela, but with its great offensive movepool Kingler seems to have the ability to adapt to such metagame trends. Meanwhile Clawitzer, while lacking the ability to boost its speed with Agility like Kingler, has found itself rocketing up to the status of a top tier breaker. Enjoying not only the absence of Vaporeon but also Virizion, which made for a good offensive check thanks to its resistances and fantastic Sdef stat, Clawitzer finds itself thriving with a Specs set with 4 "STABs" in Water Pulse/Dark Pulse/Aura Sphere/Dragon Pulse, hitting pretty much the whole tier bar Whimsicott for very high neutral damage (Whimsicott, by the way, still gets 2HKO'd because of its poor special bulk). The question is if its mediocre Speed and it being somewhat reliant on prediction is enough to hold it back, but in any case, it cannot be ignored in the builder.
Ribombee is another major presence in the current metagame. Enjoying Talonflame's departure, Ribombee finds its Quiver Dance sets doing a lot of work against teams with squishier Fairy resists such as Scarf Toge. Outspeeding everything after a QD and resisting Fighting priority, Ribombee is a scary sight in the lategame. Meanwhile, Specs and Webs sets have also gotten better with Talonflame's departure. At the same time, a lot of counterplay to it does exist - Charizard, Togedemaru, Silvally-Steel, and Gigalith, to name just a few top threats, are all capable of checking Ribombee. The problem might not be that the bee has no checks, then, as much as the fact that these checks find themselves overwhelmed by the other things they have to switch into. Is Ribombee the problem, or just a symptom of a different problem?
Fighting types have been a very dominant force in the tier for a long time, and unsurprisingly, Talonflame's departure was good news for them. Passimian, already a top tier mon, now finds it much easier to spam U-Turn, Knock Off, and CC without fearing Talonflame's Flame Body, while also not needing Rock Slide and instead being able to run Gunk Shot or Earthquake. DD Scrafty lost an offensive check, while all of its sets prey on any team that forgoes a Fairy type. Toxicroak also lost an offensive check (but also easy setup bait in Vaporeon) while lacking good defensive counterplay with its NP set beyond Stomping Tantrum Garbodor. Together, the Fighting types typically necessitate two or three different Fighting resists to ensure that one of them doesn't just steamroll through your team, which obviously is a big constraint on the builder. Of the three mentioned, only Toxicroak has been considered as a potential candidate for a QB slate, as it is probably the most awkward to check defensively (although manageable to check offensively), but one can see that all three are leaving a big mark on the meta. How do you deal with Fighting types in the teambuilder?
Other than these, other mons that have been mentioned to a lesser extent include although council does not presently look too concerned about these. However, most of these do put a lot of pressure on the builder, and we may find that they become more problematic as the meta develops, so they're worth keeping an eye on.
Finally, a few Pokemon from past metas that might be making a return to relevance in the new meta. and have seen more use as the former lost an offensive switchin while the latter an offensive check that could outspeed and OHKO even after a Quiver Dance. and have been mentioned as potentially decent in a meta where role compression is everything. and have been mentioned for similar reasons, setting hazards while providing some useful resistances that are hard to cover otherwise. Let us know if you have any experience with any of these, or if you have found success with other underrated Pokemon in the new meta.
Are you also stuck in the teambuilder in the new meta? Ask someone for help in the PU Teambuilding Lab! Conversely, if you're having fun in the builder, consider helping someone waiting for a team out.
Tournaments
PU Open has kicked off! If you didn't sign up before, you can still sign up as a substitute in the thread. Many people got a bye, so you will almost certainly be able to play if you sign up soon.
I've made a few rough appearances on the ladder, but I think one of the main talking points on the ladder is the dragon types in the tier. Guzzlord / Drampa / Egg-A are some seriously impressive pokemon that enjoy switch ins on the majority of the tier with relatively no defensive presence. This is definitely worth discussing a bit further from a balanced pov.
I'm not too sure about the fighting types in the tier being problematic, i think they're decent but not overwhelming or broken because the tier is filled with a lot of decent good utility checks.
I'd also argue vikavolt is one of the best pokemon in the tier at the moment, which i really enjoy using.
Just adding my 2 cents and wanted to add to the discussion and say hello to the tier after a long hiatus I'm by no means a tier expert, but I'll be getting to know it just a little more recently where I've had a bit of time to ladder.
Hey! Heads up, the Council will be holding a vote on Omastar, Kingler, Clawitzer, Toxicroak, and Ribombee. Each Council member sent 2xTheTap what mons they wanted on the slate, and all of these were sent by major of council members. So that's how these were chosen. The results should be out on Sunday.
It's been exactly two weeks since shifts have happened. I usually give myself that amount of time to figure out the meta, what's dumb and needs to go, what's good, etc. Something I've been surprised to see is the general disdain for the meta right now, with a ton of threats apparently clashing with each other that makes it hard to build against one without leaving yourself open to the another. Mons like Kingler, Clawitzer, Magmortar, and others have risen up in viability once Talonflame and Vaporeon (and also Hail stuff) left. However, I personally have been enjoying the meta a lot, possibly even more than the previous meta. I found that actually having to dedicate teamslots to mons instead of slapping Talonflame on lead to much more creativity in the teambuilders. However, I think that PU is in a very awkward state right now, which is why I can understand the many calls for actions, although I personally disagree with most of them.
PU, for as long as I've been playing it, has been balanced in a very standard way. Offensive threats are checked by defensive threats, which are in turn checked by new offensive threats that capitalize on these defensive threats, which then are checked themselves by new defensive threats, and then the cycle continues. A good example of this would be rising Basculin usage, which is checked by Vaporeon, which is checked by Toxicroak, which is checked by Claydol, which is checked by Basculin, and on and on ad infinitum. It's basically a long way of saying offense checks defense and vice versa. This has been shown in past metas with balance being the most common and best playstyle to use for over a year (from October to November 2020 I think semi-stall seriously challenged its position but a lack of reliable win cons stopped it from being better). However, with a rise of offensive threats, something is changing. Defense no longer checks offense, but rather it is offense that checks offense. This leads to a different, more offensive, meta where counterplay to many offensive threats is offensive as well.
However, I don't see this to be a necessarily bad thing, but rather different. On paper, the idea that offense checks offense can easily lead to a constrained meta, but past tiers and metas have shown that offensive metas can still work and stay healthy without being too much (see: Gen 5 PU, Gen 6 OU, Gen 8 UU). I see no reason why many of the threats decried as broken or too much, such as Omastar, Kingler, and Ribombee, should be banned due to their adequate offensive counterplay, with priority being common and speed control that can beat these Pokémon being common as well. And in Ribombee's case, it has more than enough defensive counterplay that doesn't completely sap momentum, such as Gigalith, SpDef Toge, and Silvally-Steel. This is not me saying "lol just run HO" (although HO archetypes such as Screens and Webs are quite good right now), but me imploring people to try out offensive counterplay rather than defensive counterplay, as Pokémon can often be balanced through an abundance of offensive counterplay rather than defensive counterplay, especially in an offensive meta like this.
With that being said, there is one mon I would be completely fine with leaving immediately: Clawitzer. It is easily the dumbest mon in the tier right now, with a total of 0 switchins if given minimal support since Lanturn dies after Rocks unless it's Protect and gets flinched to death anyway. That might have been a lengthy sentence, but it shows the importance of how little Clawitzer actually needs to tear through a team. You need a Water immunity + a Dragon immunity + a Dark resist + an Ice resist to even begin to play the multiple 50/50s it requires everytime it's on the field. The offensive counterplay I stated above doesn't work as well because, as a pure Water-type with solid bulk even when uninvested, it lacks weaknesses and can come in on staples like Zard, Palossand, and Xatu with little drawback. I was somehow able to top ladder with the dumbest hazards stacking team I ever built, and all it took was one layer of Spikes (and sometimes a little luck) to render whatever wanted to switch into Claw useless. It's absurdly dumb and I think it should leave.
The other mons on the slate are less of a concern to me. Toxicroak is a mon I've been a vocal opponent about in the past and I was unsure what it was going to look like in a post-Flame meta, and I'm still not completely sure, but I'd rather see a suspect than a quickban. With so many new threats, I don't think the meta has given Toxicroak adequate time to actually be assessed. And I know that many people don't share my Talon meta opinion that it was very unhealthy and quite like a neutered Virizion in a way. Omastar has, in my eyes, been overrated since day 1 and I stand firmly in the position that it is absolutely fine. While it can drop Ice Beam for Earth Power because Virizion is gone and the other Grasses drop to a Meteor Beam or even a +3 Surf late game, it needs a decent amount of support to actually do anything and is crippled by metagame advancements such as Scarf Toge and Rotom, priority in Hitmontop and Toxicroak, and having to choose between Timid and Modest with both having substantial opportunity costs. While there are many games where Omastar sweeps, it only does so extremely late and isn't 6-0ing teams unless they don't prep for it, which many do. Unhealthy? Possibly, I wouldn't say yes yet but I can keep the possibility open since opinions change, but I genuinely cannot see why so many people think it's broken.
Kingler and Ribombee are both fine mons, not sure why they're being talked about at all. While Kingler is harder to deal with offensively compared to its main competition in Omastar, it is much easier to deal with defensively. It has massive 4MSS: after boosting move/Liquidation/Knock, what exactly do you choose? High Horsepower leaves you unable to touch Tangela and Guzzlord (although the favorable roll on Lanturn after Rocks is nice), Ice Beam means Naive and inability to deal Toxicroak, Body Slam is blanked by Druddigon and ScarfGeist, and another boosting move is just worse Tangela fodder. Most importantly, that turn it needs to actually setup can be hard to get considering it doesn't force out much, using Knock early game chips you down, and whatever it would like to setup on can usually do something to stop it in its tracks. It's a very high risk-reward mon, and so far, that reward hasn't outdone the risk. Ribombee is super not broken considering the amount of super splashable counters it has (SpDef Toge, Gigalith, bulky Zard, etc) means there are a surprising amount of matches where the best Ribombee does is chip damage then die. Specs sets on paper seem to solve this problem because you can Switcheroo your check, but these come at a high opportunity cost due to the Rocks weakness and general betterness of the QD set. Plus, a Specs Zard is surprisingly hard to switch into if it's 3 atks + Roost, which makes it backfire easily.
Overall, I've been quite satisfied with the way the meta is currently developing and would be fine if everything but Claw stayed. I think it's taking a new direction that hasn't been widely present in Gen 8, and rather than knee jerking 5 mons to be problematic, I'd much rather see the meta develop with them to see if anything changes. To end this off, I just want to talk about some mons I've been enjoying.
I was a hater pre-shifts, but post-shifts I have come to absolutely love the monke. I haven't tried Grassy Terrain teams so I can't say if they're viable or not, but as a stand-alone breaker, it loves a meta where all the Grass resists run Boots, and thus being able to KOff its own checks can go a long way. Water-Grass cores are especially potent right now, so I would try to take advantage of that.
I think Lycan took a drop in viability because no Flame but I've been liking a Hard Stone set of Accel/STEdge/Crunch/CC. While no PFangs does kinda suck against Croak, the amount of chipped bulky Grounds that have switched into a STEdge and proceeded to heal up only to take a CC/Crunch to the face is quite big and outweighs that. Probably not the best set but fun regardless.
A bit disappointing but I like it. I run Heal Bell over Rocks because I have another Rocker and it can't actually do much to the Ghosts it force out, but the utility and bulk it provides regardless is invaluable to a bunch of teams. Offensive also seems cool, with Scrappy, a high Attack stat, and a way to gain momentum via Eject Pack. A bit weird to fit on teams but often worth it.
Hey! We got Arctovish, Sandslash-Alola, Aurorus and Vanilluxe back. With the Snow Warning ban NU did awhile back this is no surprise, and means that Aurorus and Vanilluxe are extremely mediocre (maybe you could use refrigerate Aurorus ) Arctovish seems pretty good, has ways around most water resists. Still pretty slow but maybe we'll see more Ferroseed running around. Sandslash-Alola will most likely only be using Spdef Spin sets, being able to check fairy types like Whimsicott and Ribombee pretty well.
Just kinda happy to get something, even if they arent much. You can check out the usage stats here
Aurorus @ Power Herb
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rock Polish
- Meteor Beam
- Hyper Voice
- Freeze-Dry
This looks to be Aurorus’ best set as of now, unless someone can discover some awesome tech. People seem to have forgotten that this thing now gets Meteor Beam, meaning that it has a reliable Rock STAB without having to resort to Ancient Power. It’s no Oma, but I’d say it’s decent enough for Aurorus to carve a niche.
Losing Snow Warning sucks for Vish, but it can set its own Hail semi-decently due to its decent bulk. It’s done the same thing as it had done beforehand, but now it’s a tad bit harder to break teams.
Sandslash-Alola @ Leftovers
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Icicle Crash
- Iron Head
- Earthquake / Protect
Ayyy, nice to have you back buddy. Alolaslash is the only mon I can see that has a fair chance at staying in PU. It’s a Steel, which is already decent on its own, but it can soft check a lot threats like Bee, Tsareena and Choice-locked Eggy-A. Speed is for getting the jump on Sandaconda and anything below that.
Tier shifts happened and we have gained so called hail rejects back: , , and
For last few weeks council been talking about having new sample teams and opening requests to everyone soon. Slam running right now is giving a little gray hairs in general since every council member participated in this tournament (didn't double check this, but I'd assume so).
Theres been lot of buzz around Passimian as a best pokemon of the tier in council chat. Won't go through the same as Termi went few weeks ago, but Passimians ability to make teammates look better than they sometimes are is outstanding and will be reflected in upcoming VR updates.
Ktutverde and HJAD had an interesting conversation about the old, good and reliable KangaSpikes as a playstyle. While in SM KangaSpikes was fine to throw on a hail core, on a hyper offense, hard balance and in general was more versatile. In SS we have been introduced with heavy duty boots. KangaSpikes as a playstyle has turned into more match up based instead of a great all around team option. Fitting knock off is not always the easiest task, but still manageable with bulky mons like Clefable-Tangela/Ferroseed to support this playstyle.
Worth picking up as a meta discussion point. Council members in general seems to be happy how the meta is right now and enjoys it more than dislikes it after the recent bans. Bans seemed to be a good face lift for the tier and we are on right track.
Forum Happenings
VR will be updated soon and that basically has been the rest of meta discussion in council chat. We can expect this to be ready latest end of this week.
Sample team suggestions will be open soon-ish and can be done here. Thank you for patience meanwhile :)
Tournaments
Congratulation to Ktütverde once again for winning PU Classic Playoffs. If you have missed the final set, you can find it from here
PSPL week 2 is up and running. PU participated as well and is looking forward to qualify from group stage after winning first week 6-2 against Studio. This week PU is against NatDex who won as well their first week. Currently PU is leading 2-0 as we speak with zS opening the week and Xiri following today with win.
PUPL is around the corner and we have opened up the topic as a whole. Stay tuned for more information soon!
A vote on Light Clay was had in RU, it was unanimously voted to be banned. Which means it is also banning here, if you'd like to see the voting and/or read the discussion in the thread check it out here
Hi, this thread's been pretty dead so I'd like to spark some discussion wrt the present state of the meta. In my personal experience, the meta is about as balanced right now as it was before Talonflame & friends moved up, which is a good thing given that the meta felt incredibly out of wack immediately after their departure. Moreover, unlike back then I don't feel like the meta relies as strongly on the presence of 1 or 2 splashable top threats as back then, which is reflected in last month's usage stats - PU is the only tier where nothing got over 20% usage. Despite this fact, the balance of this meta does continue to be about as precarious as it was in the Tflame meta, with several threats teetering on the edge of being too much to handle and forcing you into pretty specific kinds of builds in order to keep your matchup vs all top threats reasonable. I'm not entirely sure what, if anything, should be done about it, but I'd like to discuss several things that are on my mind as far as potentially problematic elements in PU go.
One of my first attempts at teambuilding in the Tflame meta centered itself around these two, and for good reason. It is no secret that even after the bans of such monsters as Sirfetch'd, Machamp, and Virizion, Fighting types have continued to be incredibly dominant in PU, requiring several decent checks in order not to fold to one of them. While Passimian is the "best" one of the pack, it is probably also easier to deal with than Scrafty and Croak because it can be worn down with things like Rocky Helmet and sand chip and decently reliant on prediction in a meta where a lot of mons like to run Protect (more on that momentarily). Moreover, Passimian does not require very specific checks, as any decently bulky Fighting resist + another check will do the job in most cases. Scrafty and Croak put a lot more pressure on the builder because the pool of checks you need to run in order to deal with them reliably is a lot smaller and there is practically no overlap between the two. Scrafty basically forces a Fairy (or a Croak) onto most teams, preferably with recovery or Wish support from something like Togedemaru because the BU Shed Skin set has a tendency to outlast its own checks in the long run (I will leave DD alone for the moment since I think it's the worse set outside of HO, a playstyle which has just received a nerf w/ the recent Light Clay ban). Croak, meanwhile, is even more awkward to deal with, since Garbodor is the only check it has that can deal with physical and special sets (also Golbat if you like running shitmons); other bulky Poisons and Ghosts deal with physical sets but crumble to NP, while the few potential NP checks (bulky Zard, faster offensive Ghosts/Psychics, Gigalith if Vacuum Wave) are often reliant on prediction and/or hate switching into a physical set. Together, Scrafty and Croak (+ Passimian) make it difficult to build without a Fairy + Garbodor/Zard and because of their respective durability and versatility they often still find ways to break teams. I would also like to point out as an aside that most combinations of Fighting checks that help against Scrafty + Croak just crumble to Gallade, which is a rare sight at the moment because of how awkward it can be to build with but is assuredly a potent threat.
Is there a problem with our Fighting types, and if so, how can we fix it? I personally feel like Scrafty puts less of a constraint on the builder overall, since Fairy types are already very good and often necessary because of a certain palm tree we will get to shortly, but its ability to outlast its checks can make it very troublesome. Toxicroak for me would be the more likely candidate for a suspect test or whatever, since its versatility makes it harder to deal with reliably in the builder, and although it is easier to keep in check through sheer offensive pressure, I feel fatter balance teams have become noticeably better since the Tflame meta and such teams obviously leave more room for Croak to do its thing. Still, given how many Fighting types PU has, I'm not even sure to what extent a ban on Croak would alleviate things.
A strange pairing of mons, but I think it makes sense to discuss these two at the same time. For one, they're obviously the most immediately powerful threats in PU with their Specs and Band sets respectively (barring Drampa), and for two, the combined pressure these two put on the builder is I think a major reason why things feel so constrained right now. Eggy-A stands out as the most potent breaker in the tier thanks to its ability to claim a kill vs practically any team if it hits the right button, meaning you essentially want to minimize the amount of slower mons that give it room to come in and click buttons and run Protect on the things that do let it in. The alternative is to run a Fairy + Zard and just pray you get the 50/50 right. Aggron has slightly less opportunity to come in and has slightly sturdier counterplay than Eggy-A, but makes up for it by having the most spammable move in the meta in CB Head Smash. The power of this move basically means only bulky resists can hope to check it, as even something like Passimian takes about 60% and is a few rounds of chip damage away from fainting. This is where the problem becomes apparent: the mons that would most reliably check Aggron are Sandaconda and Palossand, but these mons inevitably leave your team open to Eggy-A as they can't threaten it well and can't afford to run Protect. Meanwhile, Aggron appreciates Fairy types being common in part due to Eggy's presence, since things like Silvally-Fairy, non-Grass STAB Whimsi, non-Specs Bee, and especially Aromatisse give it opportunity to come in and break stuff. Slower balance teams are hard-pressed to find themselves capable of dealing with these two breakers consistently
Is one of these breakers too much for the tier or can we adapt to them? I am particularly concerned about Eggy, especially since it has room to adapt to metagame trends, for example by opting for Trick Room in order to exploit teams that rely on Protect to deal with it. A ban on it would also make it a lot easier to run Sandaconda or Palossand, although I do realize we have several other Grass-type breakers that are hard to switch into and could potentially take its place (especially the Ghost/Grass types can be annoying because of our very limited pool of viable Ghost resists - this PU Open replay shows Trevenant being very potent even against a Scrafty team). For the moment I've found BU Scrafty with enough speed for Adamant Aggron to be a decent solution as it checks Aggron decently well (still takes a lot from Heavy Slam though) while not letting Eggy in (and in fact since you outspeed it you can check it if you're healthy). This does come with the downside that your Rock resist is weak to Flying, making it hard to cover for the occasional DWB Archeops.
Some other threats that I feel are worth discussing:
Zard is both a positive and a negative in the builder, providing a lot of useful resistances (Fairy, Fighting, Grass) and a splashable Defog user with reliable recovery but also forcing very specific mons on a lot of teams (Gigalith and Lanturn in particular) in order to deal with it. Its best set is the bulky Defog set with Toxic, which messes with the typical switchins too, but offensive sets have an arsenal of very potent moves that force very specific checks to begin with. It might be unreliable and it's not something I'd personally like to run as a result, but dual STAB + Focus Blast has very little in the way of defensive counterplay and probably accounts for the reason why Gigalith and Lanturn end up on every other team to begin with.
Archeops is an incredibly good partner for Eggy-A, especially with U-Turn, as it shares a lot of its checks with Aggron which as we've noted are taken advantage of by Eggy. It also servers as a Zard check and adds speed to your team which makes it easier to pair with Eggy than Aggron is. Outside of this role it also is decently threatening on its own, with a lot of interesting options like DWB and Knock Off, although I think it functions best as an offensive pivot - I've seen people calling Archeops underwhelming and I think this is because they expect it to consistently break teams on its own, but it is only with appropriate team support that Archeops truly shines.
Silvally is starting to regain its status as a serious offensive menace after mostly fulfilling support roles for a minute. Fairy, Steel, and Ghost are all very dangerous with SD Flame Charge sets, all sporting enough speed, bulk, and useful resistances to enable them to set up and sweep lategame with a bit of support - or none if your opponent's resist to the former two is a Zard or their Ghost resist is missing. Even more dangerous with Hwish support as they can conveniently function as midgame breakers and sweep lategame.
These threats are pretty rare rn and most definitely not banworthy, but I would like to hear how people deal with them. Poltergeist was sort of a neat buff for these mons but I long for the days when you could just ignore Ghost types in the builder. Guzzlord seems like the easiest Ghost check, but it can have some durability issues and obviously doesn't enjoy switching into Froslass, while Scrafty doesn't enjoy any of their secondary STAB moves if they run CB. Other than that there are some Normal types, most of which are hard to fit on a team, and I suppose random itemless mons? But I do find that the item slot is hard to pass up on most mons, and of course it doesn't help you one iota against SD Silvally-Ghost. I'm interested to know what people think of our ghosts and how they prep for them - if at all.
Finally, on a positive note, I've found Wish Togedemaru to be an exceptional mon in the meta. It was already very good before the most recent set of bans, but it often needed Scarf in order to keep Omastar at bay. Now, there are less obstacles for it, and it has really proven itself to be great team support in my experience, giving a lot of mons the durability they need to check what they need to throughout the course of the match while not being as passive or exploitable as something like Aromatisse. Moreover, in a meta where bulky Steel types are in short supply, Togedemaru is one of the few things that can fill the hole, while also having additional goodies like a potential Volt Switch immunity. Despite the rat's mediocre defenses on paper, it's surprisingly durable and, additionally, it's cute. Use it!
To facilitate discussion, a short questionnaire (don't feel obliged to answer these questions, I just put them here for those who find it easier to post their thoughts in a questionnaire format): 1: What are your thoughts on the meta? Is it enjoyable, competitive, balanced?
2: What do you believe to be the most dangerous threat(s) in PU right now and why?
3: How do you prepare yourself for Fighting types? Which one(s) do you find to be the most difficult to deal with?
4: How do you prepare yourself for Ghost types? How good do you think they are right now?
5: Any threats you deem to be underrated? Have you had any success with creative sets?
1: What are your thoughts on the meta? Is it enjoyable, competitive, balanced?
2: What do you believe to be the most dangerous threat(s) in PU right now and why?
3: How do you prepare yourself for Fighting types? Which one(s) do you find to be the most difficult to deal with?
4: How do you prepare yourself for Ghost types? How good do you think they are right now?
5: Any threats you deem to be underrated? Have you had any success with creative sets?
Guess I'll answer these, thanks for your post termi :D
1. I'm enjoying myself, probably more than Talon meta. Building is alright, even with the multitude of threats you mentioned in your post. I also think the tier plays well. It doesn't feel like I can lose to absolute random things, just really good breakers/cleaners. So to me it's enjoyable, competitive enough, and almost definitely not 100% balanced (although we've definitely seen and had worse)
2. I think the 3 most dangerous mons in the tier are Scrafty, Exeggutor-Alola, and Charizard. You mentioned great points already but these are mons that I've more recently really started to think about in every single build. Scrafty needs really specific checks that can beat it over the course of the game. Exeggutor-Alola requires extremely aggressive positioning, or a lot of outplay to never have it get going. And Charizard similar to Scrafty can outlast many of its checks, so that is a huge deal in the builder. I've seen so many builds with Lanturn + Zard weak just never be able to kill it.
3. I've been liking Zard, Ribombee/Whims, and a general phys def meta check like Sandaconda or Palo. The combination of these generally gets the job done against Passimian, Toxicroak, even the odd Gallade. The fighting type I have the most trouble against is Scrafty. The fairy types bar Silvally-Fairy on non DD Iron Head sets and Phys def Aromatisse just don't switch in throughout the game. And Flying/Fighting types either don't kill it in one hit or need to take a risk every time they come in.
4. Yeah Guzzlord is my go to for these. Tbh I almost never see Froslass so that might hurt me one day. Trev for example even if I don't have Guzzlord is super slow so you can generally do something about it. I think a big thing to combat the physical ghosts will be Helmet Garbodor + ghost resist/non item mon. Being able to force Gourg to click whip instead of polter, or force Froslass to click triple axel and take a ton of chip. I agree with you that these aren't close to ban worthy, but things that we should probably think about more when building.
5. Not much but I have a couple things in mind to build with. This NUPL replay made me want to try out Gorse again lol. Idek if it'll work out but not being able to be toxic'd by Zard seems super dope. I'd also like to try out some more trick room options to partner with eggy. MZ used it here in Open and I thought it was a super cool team. Maybe Eggy-A + Apple for that double Eject pack grass dragon core? Idfk lol
Again thanks for the post and getting some discussion started, hope ppl enjoyed reading
scrafty (the bu set) is kinda stupid imo, its great bulk + decent defensive typing + overall durability mean it has a really easy time outlasting many of its answers, which are mainly just fairy-types n some fighters. fairyvally, whimsicott, toxicroak (and other fighters like passimian) all lack reliable recovery, which means they are very prone to entry hazards chip, status, or just repeatedly switching into attacks. this leaves aromatisse, ribombee... and clefairy and alcremie? the former two are pretty solid currently, especially the latter of the two, but clef and alcremie are generally rather underwhelming. n yes i know u can pair less reliable answers with wish support but most wish mons eventually find themselves in awkward scenarios where they need recovery but so does a teammate, which means it can be unreliable at times
anyway, i'll mainly be focusing on ribombee on aromatisse since those two are the most relevant ones n the other two mainly run into the same problems when trying to deal with scrafty. ribombee finds itself extremely reliant on its item to not fold to scrafty, which is obviously a major issue when u want to switch into a pokemon with knock off. if rocks are up, this means u always have to roost after switching in, which means you end up being a huge momentum sink. aromatisse, while it doesn't suffer from this, is more passive and has to rely on wishtect for recovery. i don't think it's hard to see what's the problem with this - consistent scrafty answers end up being super easy to take advantage of, which means that any partner that can switch into them, like garbodor, aggron, magmortar, charizard, n sd steelvally to name a few become much harder to deal with when they're given free opportunities to come in. i think this is especially true in garbodor's case, as our removal isn't particularly great and scrafty absolutely loves hazards to overwhelm frailer answers
i think this is kinda where the issue lies; it's not all that easy to consistently be safe vs scrafty, and, when u are, u often have to accept the fact that certain mons are always gonna be bigger issues (or even just ur spikes mu). or at least, that's what i've been noticing when building / testing. also if smth does happen i think banning toxicroak instead wouldn't help with this issue much, like scrafty answers are still extremely exploitable even without toxicroak. not sure if im really advocating for a scrafty ban? but i think it's smth worth keeping an eye on as the meta further develops & imo it's more of a problem than toxicroak n if one of them has to go i'd much rather see scrafty go
1: What are your thoughts on the meta? Is it enjoyable, competitive, balanced?
I rate this meta a solid 7.5/10. I’ve been having a lot of fun with this meta, more so than the Talon & Viriz-less metas. It’s very much enjoyable, quite fun, and there’s not too many mons that I can point to as broken. As a bonus, PU is one of the few tiers that hasn’t had Screens be overbearing, and after facing Screen after Screen team in UU, RU, & NU, it’s a breath of fresh air. Teambuilding is a bit constraining at times though, but its not too bad compared to past metas (*cough cough* Oma *cough cough*) Of course, this state of tranquility will probably shatter once the shifts happen and NU (fucking thieves smh) will once again take a handful of our mons.
2: What do you believe to be the most dangerous threat(s) in PU right now and why?
In no particular order: Aggron, Eggy-A, Toxicroak, and Zard.
Aggron’s switchins are entirely limited to bulky Grounds and Fighting-types. Said bulky Grounds still take a fair amount from Head Smash and are bodied by Heavy Slam and Aqua Tail, and every Fighting bar bulky Scrafty is taking massive amounts of damage from either of Aggron’s STABs. It’s not impossible to check, but its honestly disheartening to see your team fall to Banded Head Smash.
Eggy is even worse. At least Aggron has Ground & Fighting-types to make its job harder. Eggy? It just click either Leaf Storm or Draco and watches things get annihilated. This thing is so stupid it’s honestly insane. You have to play lots of 50/50s of ‘is it going to use Storm or Draco?’ and if you get it wrong, your mon is either dead or heavily crippled. And it’s not terribly hard to build around either, it pairs incredibly well with strong physical breakers like the aforementioned Aggron, Banded Pass, and SD Silvally forms. The pressure it exerts on teambuilding is also worth talking about; you have to slap on a Fire + Grass resist & a Fairy to be safe against it, but when you consider PU’s total lack of Grass and Dragon resists… you get the problem. I wholeheartedly agree with a suspect about this thing, it’s proven more than it’s worth already.
Toxicroak simply has no defensive counterplay, NP or SD otherwise. With NP, Claydol falls to Shadow Ball, Sandaconda takes lots from Shadow Ball and can easily be chipped into KO range, and Gigalith is a shaky check if Croak is running Focus Blast. SD sets can lure in Croak’s usual checks and can blast through them with a move such as Ice Punch or EQ, or can cripple them with Knock Off. The only non capable of walling both of these sets is Garbodor, and even that has to be careful of EQ on physical variants. Thankfully, we have plenty of offensive counterplay for Croak, but none of them can switch into it safely once boosted and all of them fear priority.
Zard is a big contender for the most versatile mon in PU, and that translates to ‘annoying as fuck to deal with’. There’s standard Toxic Zard, then there’s offensive/bulky Defog, and then 3 Attacks + Roost and DD, and finally, more niche sets such as SD on webs and SubBD… you get my point. All of these sets require different answers, and there’s no way in hell you’re fitting all of them into a coherent team. Another factor in Charizard’s dominance is how easily its few universal checks are, as many of them lack reliable recovery and are a magnet for Toxic.
3: How do you prepare yourself for Fighting types? Which one(s) do you find to be the most difficult to deal with?
Generally, one offensive and one defensive check is my go-to way of handling Fighting-types. You can easily pressure Fightings offensively with Flyings such as Arch, Zard, and Scyther, and can force a switch with Aromatisse and the ever-growing popular Xatu. Mesprit & Whimsi are also two nice checks to them that I haven’t seen mentioned elsewhere. Oh, and don’t forget about Ghost-types either.
For the most annoying, that award goes to Toxicroak and Hitmontop. I’ve covered Croak above, but Top is a complete bitch to switch into, Triple Axel hurts a ton and all viable Ice resists are smacked by CC.
4: How do you prepare yourself for Ghost types? How good do you think they are right now?
God cow Miltank is my favorite option to deal with pesky Ghosts, with having reliable recovery and being immune to Poltergeist and whatnot. Next in line are Darks, with them being Guzzlord, which can easily tank Poltergeists and force progress with Knock, Scrafty, which eats Ghost attacks like a champ and can stave off damage with Rest, and Absol, which can fire off nuclear Knocks or can setup SD on said Ghosts.
Ghosts were very good in past metas, and still are in the present. Nothing has really changed for them except being a bit harder to use with all the heavy hitters around, but Xatu’s rise in popularity has benefited them greatly.
5: Any threats you deem to be underrated? Have you had any success with creative sets?
I’ve got some I’d like to share, but its dark where I live, so I’ll edit em in soon enough.
I wouldn't say there has been much controversy about it, but lots of talk about its impact on building, and its raw breaking power in game. It's most definitely a top breaker and something you need to account for when making a build. Now that we finally (halleluiah) have replays from Open, gonna go over what we've seen so far from top games.
[Gen 8] PU replay: Greybaum vs. MZ - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
Eggy comes in on Palossand rocking, a pretty common thing that occurs. Eggy likes coming in on rockers, especially the ground types. Forced out by Eggy, Guzz comes in on Trick room. At this point with the right click Eggy does either get a kill, or heavily dents Steel-vally. Protect is clicked but same thing would've occurred, just less TR turns. Draco is clicked and Guzz goes down. Ultimately I think Steel-Vally could've maybe come out if it hadn't been for that Whims in the back being a huge threat if Flamethrower is clicked. Eject Pack is shown and MZ makes a nice play going into Rhydon, Double Edging on Palo and Double Double Edging on the Toxicroak predicting the Eggy to want to come in. Eggy eventually does come back in on Palo the next turn, sets up Trick Room and puts MZ in a very favorable position to win by Killing Zard and getting somewhat necessary chip on Steel-vally as you can see by the end game. Healing wish + Steel-Vally made a lot of progress but didn't end up pulling it out.
This is a pretty good replay for Eggy. It got in enough, did its job, didn't even need to be on the field at one point to force plays. I do think overall MZ outplayed, but having Eggy helped a ton.
[Gen 8] PU replay: Decem vs. eifo - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
I'm including every open replay so this one has to be in there. T1 we see some adaptation, timid Vikavolt. Seeing as though the same team has a Scyther and Whims, I think not running Max HP isn't the biggest hit to the builds match up against mons you would typically want to hard Vikavolt into. Scouting is probably the best play for Decem but oh well, you get the point. It's a nice pick from eifo, especially on sand. If you can catch an Eggy of guard, go for it.
[Gen 8] PU replay: termiii vs. Greybaum - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
One of my fav replays of the whole tour. And while we saw a really dope set from Greybaum in LO Synth Eggy, this might just be a better replay for Zard than Eggy. Going over what each Eggy did though, Parting Shot Silv-Fairy was shown which is a great partner for that Eggy set Grey has. We first see it Shoot out on Spdef Toge and have Eggy come in. Flame does 73 as Toge wishes. Timid Specs Flame had an okay shot from killing at this health, but it makes sense why Termi stayed in. Zard hardly has a switch in with Archeops Toxic'd so no way you throw it in there. Shield comes out on Draco, then U-Turn into Mesp on Synth. Skipping forward a bit eventually Passimian Rock Slides into Ferro, giving Termi a pretty Free Eggy. Grey doubles into Toge on Eggy but it can still click whatever it wants as U-turn doesn't do that much. 2 Gigas puts Ferro into rocks range and Grey brings out his own to keep his sack. Not too many mind games here, Draco is pretty free and while Mesprit is good it also is a free Toge every time for Grey. It dies to Draco and Zard comes in to Roost. Greys Eggy heals up but doesn't get to click thanks to a great Arch from Termi. Termi Pivots Eggy into Toges locked move, willing to let it go but ends up living Zing Zap so Pivots into her own Toge.
I didn't really go over how much of a threat Zard was on Termi's side. There was a good bit to say about Eggy on both sides but I would almost argue most breakers in the tier would've helped her just as much in winning this game. Zard absolutely massacred if Arch ever took more damage than just Zard Flamethrower combined with Toxic. It forced Grey on the back foot for a good portion of this game. Greys Eggy set is super cool and maybe a look into the future of Eggys sets. Screw locking yourself in, why not throw off insanely powerful attacks while also being able to heal.
[Gen 8] PU replay: Decem vs. pattek - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
Final game so far! So at least in this game, a turn 1 speed match up actually went in Eggys favor. Patteks Aggron was adamant, while Decems Eggy was timid! To be honest I do think Aggron should be Jolly at the moment but of course I guess you want as much power as possible, this seems like another adaptation that can be made to combat Eggy. After this Eggy got in on Palo clicking rocks, this is something we saw in another game as well. Audino came in to take Leaf Storm but took a whole %69. After this Pattek went Whims and took 40 from -2 Leaf Storm, this is a lot but also confirms its not Max HP Whims. So already a good amount of value coming in from Eggy. Audino can not switch in to another Eggy attack bar Flamethrower which is almost never going to be clicked here, and it's the same thing with Whims except it can only take Draco. Skipping ahead Eggy hards in on Palo again, at this point I feel people should maybe try out Sludge Bomb on Palo with how often people are switching Eggy in on it. With rocks up and boots gone on Audino Leaf Storm should just nuke it and nearly claim one after if Audino switches but it ends up dodging Leaf Storm anyways so lol. Later down Decem U-turns with Cincinno to get Eggy in on Palo after forcing Shore up. Sacking Croak is kinda forced as its physical and burnt. The last time Eggy comes in it's after Gigalith is sacked to Wishiwashi's Scald. Ends up just Leaf Storm critting Audio, realistically it didn't matter.
Wow that took a long time to write. I'd say the biggest contributing factor as to why Eggy hasn't been suspected is that we haven't been able to even see it be used. I really enjoyed watching these and analyzing what it's doing in each one. I do think suspecting rfn would be really jumping the gun as time will prove more anyways, and I think the conversation is still going. Speaking of that, I would love to hear what you think of Eggy at the moment. Do you have any cool adaptations you're using in your builds to prep for it? If so: what? And how has it done? Ideally if anything is done about this mon it's a suspect because I want to make sure peoples votes and voices count. But we'll see, this is just sort of me asking what you think right now. As for what I think of it overall, it's probably too much for the tier but I think waiting longer is almost always better. We also have other mons doing really really well so making sure to deal with the right thing at the right time is important.
If I made any mistakes feel free to hmu, and as a heads up this wasn't to criticize anyone's plays or builds. Not that I did any of that really but just wanted to make it clear. Thanks for reading and have a good one!
1 week ago I thought "eggy a problem? mh IDTS I run icebeam on my lanturns with some speed and I try to put eggy in icebeam range, and I avoid using sanda and palossand, after all stealth rock in gen8 isn't thaaat good. Offensive pressure beats eggy just fine". Yeah now in retrospect I'm like wtf am I crazy. There's some irony in this because it now straight up sums up my current stance on eggy: suspect-worthy at the very least. Indeed, Grounds and Lanturn are simply PU staples, and not using them leaves you weak to an awful lot of stuff (archeops, passimian, charizard, togedemaru, steelvally, heliolisk ... ). Anyway, using another rock setter like gigalith, mesprit, rhydon or whatever doesnt make you less eggy weak. Lanturn can run icebeam for eggy, but it's totally unviable vs the rest (does pitiful damage to tsareena or guzzlord...). You could tell me "yes but protect lanturn+fairy+zard is immune to eggy" well yes but no because if you decided specs was the only set that's cool, but LO is equally viable, whether it has synthesis, sub or trickroom. Zard+Fairy that resists grass is a must-have, and even then you need to predict perfectly vs eggy. EVEN with protect lanturn and zard and fairy, eggy can get kills by coming on another slow mon. Whatever you do, unless your entire team outspeeds eggy and can damage it, you're gonna drop mons to it, and absolutely nothing else in PU can do this: it is very similar to clawitzer and not even worse I'd argue.
But it doesnt stop here. As if being able to grab a free kill on our stealthrockers every time they come out (excepted protect gigalith + sturdy special grass resist maybe) and being able to abuse lanturn unless it really goes out of its way and runs icebeam wasn't enough, eggy also happens to be the craziest voltturn abuser of all times. And we have an awful lot of viable uturn and vswitch users: Passimian, Togedemaru, Archeops, Silvallies (parting shot too), Lanturn, Heliolisk... For example, eggy gets a free switchin every time Passimian uturns on a predicted weezing. Same for palossand but I already mentioned it. I feel we've reached a point where you just can't use a defensive mon viably without either A) running protect B) ice coverage C) investing a ton in speed. Examples: icebeam defensive mesprit (we had that problem with eggy in SM too), weezing with most EVs in speed. Most evs? Well it happens that Timid Eggy is totally viable, and probably its best set. Who cares about doing 150% instead of160% to most foes. I'm not gonna mention things like Dragon Rush/Scale shot Sandaconda, it's super smart but that shouldn't even be considered in a team.
So yeah, I'd rather have this suspected asap (and possibly banned). My reasoning isn't crazy for sure, but using: Jolly Aggron; Timid Vikavolt hoping eggy will be modest; "Usain Bolt" weezing as I call it; super fast lanturn with icebeam (protect nice too, but LO eggy tho); Zard+Fairy and needing to predict right with them every time; Simply not using Palossand or Sandaconda; not using rocks at all etc etc is way too centralizing to me.
In a nutshell: Eggy abuses our best rockers and best special tanks. With the ubiquitous voltturn support, it can also abuse anything slower than it and destroy team backbones in a couple turns. Eggy has no switchins, and the cost for predicting (i'd say flipping a coin) wrong against it is way too high. And dont tell me it sucks for eggy to predict wrong, it just has to switchout and come back a bit later. It's not like losing one entire mon every time you guess wrong. Timid Eggy is good, praying for it not to be timid isn't viable counterplay.
Suspect timing
I'm honestly making this post because PUPL is starting quite soon, and given the state of the tier, I have 0 doubts eggy is going to be called out by week 2 or 3 and will have ruined a bunch of games by then, as well as ruined teambuilding for most teams. Then what happens, we have to suspect it in the middle of PUPL which is suboptimal. Or quickvote on it within the council, which I massively disagree with, since we could suspect it Before PUPL as long as there is a consensus on Eggy being problematic, or at least suspect it at the very start of PUPL and not have to deal with eggy drama in the rest of it. But nothing is happening without the community support. So I'm trying to lead by example (well Specs did it with his great post above and replays, but in a much more neutral way). If you believe eggy to be a problem (or to be fine), express it now below. We council can't decide what to do without your opinion -saying that eggy is nuts on discord is pointless- , and the default option is well to do nothing obviously.
Sorry for the kinda randomish post, sometimes I can pull out Shakespear-like stuff of incredible quality (you disagree?) that also lulls you to sleep by line 3 (sleep is healthy), but not this time! I is not happy. I trust you guys to do better than me and make nice and interesting posts expressing your view, whether it's pro-suspect, against, or don't-care. I do think there are a bunch of people out there who want the egg suspect, but no posts about it = no evidence about it being problematic = nothing is happening. If you want something to happen go ahead and make a post!
Now is the time to rise up my coconuts!! (eh)
*music starts*
"Knock Knock Nuts! Nutty Nutty Nuts! Eggy's CocoNUTS! Please Oh God, Make it stop, From grabbing my N***"
Ok I promised Specs I would make a post but didn't have a ton to say that wasn't better expressed in short Discord messages. What I want to add to the conversation about Alolan Exeggutor is that I don't think it's /quite/ as much about its stupid breaking power. Like that's a huge dimension of the mon but we've had big dumb breakers before that require careful prediction but have bad speed and defensive stats and get chipped by everything and end up balanced. Like, Drampa was a huge deal in the yesteryears of the pre-DLC times, that kind of thing. Where I think Egg separates from being just a breaker is that it has a much larger impact on what you can and can't run. Drampa's defensive utility was awful, the most it cut you off from wanting to use is like, fat Gourgeists. Egg is slowly starting to warp what is and isn't acceptable. Lanturn and Gigalith really just need to run Protect and have teammates that can pivot into each of Egg's moves, never mind the fact that fitting Heal Bell or Toxic would be nice. Sandaconda can and does still get run but seeing unironic Coil+Scale Shot usage is a bit sad, as is the amount of speed Weezing needs to run to outpace Alolan Exeggutor. Certain BO teams as a style just don't work in an Egg meta imo, look at the final replay in Specs' post (Decem vs Pattek). If Egg needs to go I think this larger meta impact is why. As a breaker it's nuts and the way people are starting to experiment with non-choice fun stuff is very cool but on its own I can't see just the power getting there. It should always be about what the mon does to teambuilding, and I haven't seen that be front and center yet.
Fighting types have been a very dominant force in the tier for a long time, and unsurprisingly, Talonflame's departure was good news for them. Passimian, already a top tier mon, now finds it much easier to spam U-Turn, Knock Off, and CC without fearing Talonflame's Flame Body, while also not needing Rock Slide and instead being able to run Gunk Shot or Earthquake. DD Scrafty lost an offensive check, while all of its sets prey on any team that forgoes a Fairy type. Toxicroak also lost an offensive check (but also easy setup bait in Vaporeon) while lacking good defensive counterplay with its NP set beyond Stomping Tantrum Garbodor. Together, the Fighting types typically necessitate two or three different Fighting resists to ensure that one of them doesn't just steamroll through your team, which obviously is a big constraint on the builder. Of the three mentioned, only Toxicroak has been considered as a potential candidate for a QB slate, as it is probably the most awkward to check defensively (although manageable to check offensively), but one can see that all three are leaving a big mark on the meta. How do you deal with Fighting types in the teambuilder?
although council does not presently look too concerned about these. However, most of these do put a lot of pressure on the builder, and we may find that they become more problematic as the meta develops, so they're worth keeping an eye on.
and 
have seen more use as the former lost an offensive switchin while the latter an offensive check that could outspeed and OHKO even after a Quiver Dance. 
and 
have been mentioned as potentially decent in a meta where role compression is everything. 
and 
have been mentioned for similar reasons, setting hazards while providing some useful resistances that are hard to cover otherwise. Let us know if you have any experience with any of these, or if you have found success with other underrated Pokemon in the new meta.
I'm by no means a tier expert, but I'll be getting to know it just a little more recently where I've had a bit of time to ladder.
I was a hater pre-shifts, but post-shifts I have come to absolutely love the monke. I haven't tried Grassy Terrain teams so I can't say if they're viable or not, but as a stand-alone breaker, it loves a meta where all the Grass resists run Boots, and thus being able to KOff its own checks can go a long way. Water-Grass cores are especially potent right now, so I would try to take advantage of that.
I think Lycan took a drop in viability because no Flame but I've been liking a Hard Stone set of Accel/STEdge/Crunch/CC. While no PFangs does kinda suck against Croak, the amount of chipped bulky Grounds that have switched into a STEdge and proceeded to heal up only to take a CC/Crunch to the face is quite big and outweighs that. Probably not the best set but fun regardless.
) Arctovish seems pretty good, has ways around most water resists. Still pretty slow but maybe we'll see more Ferroseed running around. Sandslash-Alola will most likely only be using Spdef Spin sets, being able to check fairy types like Whimsicott and Ribombee pretty well.
Silvally is starting to regain its status as a serious offensive menace after mostly fulfilling support roles for a minute. Fairy, Steel, and Ghost are all very dangerous with SD Flame Charge sets, all sporting enough speed, bulk, and useful resistances to enable them to set up and sweep lategame with a bit of support - or none if your opponent's resist to the former two is a Zard or their Ghost resist is missing. Even more dangerous with Hwish support as they can conveniently function as midgame breakers and sweep lategame. 
These threats are pretty rare rn and most definitely not banworthy, but I would like to hear how people deal with them. Poltergeist was sort of a neat buff for these mons but I long for the days when you could just ignore Ghost types in the builder. Guzzlord seems like the easiest Ghost check, but it can have some durability issues and obviously doesn't enjoy switching into Froslass, while Scrafty doesn't enjoy any of their secondary STAB moves if they run CB. Other than that there are some Normal types, most of which are hard to fit on a team, and I suppose random itemless mons? But I do find that the item slot is hard to pass up on most mons, and of course it doesn't help you one iota against SD Silvally-Ghost. I'm interested to know what people think of our ghosts and how they prep for them - if at all.
