Metagame np: PU Stage 5 - Movin' On Up (Vigoroth and Exeggutor are BANNED)

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Yay new drops! Since Beedrill is completely irrelevant, lets just skip past that and talk about all of the other mons. To begin with, I'll talk about Altaria, which is the drop I was most excited for. While it probably won't be ranked that high, having another Dragon and a Monferno counter, I think it's good enough to at least use on a team. Most of ManOfMany's Altaria sets were good, but I also have a few that I thought up on my own that I wanted to share.

(mobile so no sprite sorry lol)

Altaria @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / Earthquake
- Iron Tail
- Roost

This is a pretty cool Clefairy lure that's able to 2HKO SpDef Clef, which can clear the way for a lot
of mons.

Altaria @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- Tailwind

This is a lot like my Pelipper set that has seemed to take a liking, but basically if you want something that can support a slow wallbreaker and never hit a single move, don't look further than this set!

Ok moving on lol, I think Glalie is pretty cool and definitely a better alternative than Whirlipede or Venipede, as it has Taunt to prevent other Taunt users from stopping it from getting hazards, as well as Explosion to prevent opposing Defog / Rapid Spin, so I look forward to this.

Camerupt is honestly pretty underwhelming, like yeah it can check Electrics without Water-type coverage, but it has such a bad typing and it's defensive stats are pretty bad, even with Solid Rock to boot. We'll see how it fares in the meta though.

Audino seems like a cool cleric that is very similar to Lickilicky. It's defensive stats are a bit lower, but it has access to Regenerator, so I think it'll be a bit more effective than Lickilicky, but the same general role.

I honestly don't think fully offensive Lopunny sets are worth it in this meta, but I think something by the likes of Assault Vest + Trickeroo with Klutz can be really nice for crippling defensive Pokemon like Misdreavus, while still allowing space for Healing Wish.

Overall I don't think the meta will be that different, but it's going to be fun to be able to use some new mons.
 

Most of the Pokemon that dropped have been talked about, apart from Beedrill, so I'll talk a bit about it, the niches it carries and the sets it can run, because I don't think it is totally useless and outclassed by other Pokemon that perform similiar roles. Before continuing, I want to state that Beedrill isn't of course good, but that it can be useful in certain situations and builds. So, at first, Beedrill might look like it's outclassed both in supportive roles by the likes of Venipede and Glalie, in offensive ones by Ninjask and other wallbreakers, and while it is true that it is almost outclassed on the offensive side and the aforementioned Pokemon are better in most situations, Beedrill carries some niches that can differentiate it from them and make it usable in certain cases.

In fact, the support set resembles Glalie and Venipede, but with the addition of interesting moves such as Toxic Spikes(this applies only to Glalie), Tailwind, U-Turn, and Knock Off, while still carrying things such as Endeavor. The access to these moves make Beedrill an ok suicide-lead, which can be also useful later on in the game because of access to good speed and attack plus Tailwind, which can be handy early too if you are going to sack it, and an alternative to the aforementioned other suicide-leads. U-Turn + Tailwind and Knock Off if running it over Endeavor make Beedrill less passive when comparing it to Venipede, while it also has Toxic Spikes as a niche over Glalie, making it not terrible on teams that appreciate Toxic Spikes support more than Spikes. Still, lack of Spikes hurts and makes Beedrill less splashable on teams that don't need support to deal with bulkier teams in comparison to Venipede and Glalie. Also Swarm + Focus Sash hits like a truck.

Beedrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Endeavor / Knock Off
- U-turn
- Tailwind

4 remaining EVs are useless
 

ShuckleDeath

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Beedrill @ Salac Berry
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- X-Scissor
- Drill Run
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

Beedrill is a Mon I missed the chance to use in the lower tiers. This is a set I came up with, I believe this set does a good job bringing out the quality's that Ninjask does not have. Ninjask can run SubSD but this is where the similarity's end. This set is all about trying to get into swarm range and trying to clean up weaken teams with a boosted speed stat from a Salac Berry, it also makes use of it's coverage move Drill Run meaning Rock and Steel types can not have a free switch in necessarily. it is pretty obvious this set needs a lot of support to work but hey its better than Butterfree imo :P.

Replay against good friend and great user cryalot: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-300631969
 
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hey so unlike beedrill this is actually kinda good:


Lopunny @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Healing Wish
- Switcheroo / Thunder Wave / Toxic / Fake Out

Despite 76 Attack looking really weak it's actually not that awful with a boosting item and high BP moves (just look at Monferno which only has base 78), but where this set shines is in its great support capabilities for an offensive mon. Base 105 Speed coupled with Healing Wish and a bunch of other useful moves that can be switched around based on your team's needs. Here's a replay of it in action actually putting in work: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-300640762

seriously klutz av is awful those don't use

oh and here's a few calcs showing how this thing actually isn't as weak as it looks:

252 Atk Choice Band Lopunny Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 255-300 (87.6 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Lopunny Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 280-331 (90 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 141-166 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- 80% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (not impressive at all but Limber means you can usually beat it if they switch in which is really nice)
252 Atk Choice Band Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 157-186 (43.1 - 51%) -- 52% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 

TONE

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Ok, well I'll talk about Audino then. It has some things going for it like being a good Wish passer and cleric with Heal Bell and being a nice special wall until you realize that it faces competition from Lickilicky as it can still pull this off better as it has more offense presence while doing the exact same thing Audino can. What does set Audino apart from Lickilcky is Regenerator so it can actually Wish pass to teammates more reliably while being able to keep its own health high at the cost of being Taunted which Lickilicky can't be.


Audino @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
- Knock Off

Basically my opinion of standard Audino. Wish and Heal Bell lets it act as a good cleric plus combined with Regenerator lets its recover health as it passes to a teammate. Knock Off is for utility for getting rid of Eviolites from Roselia and Misdreavus. Double-Edge or Return can be run as a option for STAB, but it won't be doing much damage with Audino's pitiful offenses. Toxic can also be used to wear down bulkier foes, but it struggles to find space for it.

Audino @ Leftovers / Mental Herb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Encore
- Yawn
- Healing Wish

This is a pretty cool set to run for dedicated Trick Room teams (or basically my replacement for Chimecho to anyone whose read my rmt). The idea behind this set is pretty simple. Force your opponent to switch by either locking them into an unfavorable move with Encore or force them to switch by using Yawn. Next turn, set up Trick Room and click Healing Wish to revive a weakened teammate to abuse Trick Room for 3 turns.

Now on to Camerupt. Camerupt comes back with a unique Fire / Ground typing making it one of the best Electric stops PU has to offer. It also has good offenses for an Stealth Rock setter and has great ability in Solid Rock as well as access to utility moves such as Roar and Will-O-Wisp. However, it does have a glaring 4x weakness to Water and is weak to Ground as well as having a bad matchup against other Stealth Rock setters such as Golem and Relicanth. It also doesn't have the best defenses and lacks reliable recovery, so it isn't difficult to wear down.


Camerupt @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm / Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power / Earthquake
- Roar

Basically Camerupt's way of being a good tank. Even without investment, Lava Plume and Earth Power does a good amount of damage to foes whereas Earthquake can be used to hit Ninetales harder. Stealth Rock + Roar good utility and phazing foes out and racking up entry hazard damage. Camerupt goes great with other hazard setters like Roselia and Quilladin that can cover for its Water and Ground weakness.

Camerupt @ Choice Specs
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 52 HP / 252 SpA / 204 Spe
Modest Nature
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Camerupt has some solid Special Attack, so a Choice Specs set isn't out of the question. If given the chance, STAB Eruption can do a huge amount of damage to anything bar Flash Fire Pokemon and Politoed takes about 45% minimum if it switches in. Fire Blast is the secondary Fire move to use once Camerupt's HP is below 72%, Earth Power for Fire- and Electric-types, and HP Electrc nails Pelipper and other Water-types on the switch. It may be a lot of Speed, but it does allow Camerupt to outspeed uninvested base 65s such as Pelipper and Roselia and smack them with HP Electric and Eruption respectively, though max Speed isn't out of the question so you can outspeed uninvested Politoed and KO it with Earth Power if it is a weakened state.
 
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Haven't seen this posted yet but here's a fun set I'm going to be testing for a while.



Camerupt @ Air Balloon
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Roar / Will-O-Wisp

Air Balloon is a nice option over the standard Leftovers allowing you to freely switch in Stunfisk most notably. It also allows you to check Probopass, Arbok (without Aqua Tail), Golem (Stone Edge hurts but at least you have a chance), and other Camerupts. More speed creep is optional if you want to beat outspeed certain things. Yeah definitely give this a try.
 
I don't think my opinions will differ too much from the ones before but why the hell not throw them out there anyways :D

Beedill just seems useless to me. I mean yeah, sure base 90 Attack seems nice but there's no other good stats in its stat-pool so we might as well forgot about its existence.

Camerupt will likely have a hard time seeing any usage as Floatzel, Basculin and Simipour are all very much viable right now. Only things it has going for it are rocks and electric immunity. I guess it checks Rapidash and Zebstrika but so does Stunfisk. So overall maybe a bit of usage but not much

Yaay now people can run scumbag regenerator Audino-Duosion core, maybe, possibly... It's access to Knock Off as well as supportive moves can possibly make Audino be very useful in balanced teams, maybe even stall, but overall I don't really see it having a huge impact on the meta so I didn't care to think of any sets yet.

Bulky Dragon/Flying seems solid as hell. Though there are definetly a whole bunch of things cabaple of killing it a bulky DDancing variant can clear up lategame. Also a mixed set can probably be more useful but I've seen an example for that in this thread already so I'm just gonna leave that.
Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Atk / 66 SpD / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Roost
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
The set outspeeds a Zebstrika at +1 and kills Floatzel with Dragon Claw at +2.
PS.: I don't think Power Herb Sky Attack will ever be a thing but it sure could be fun lol

Oh Glalie, how I love your design, wish you were actually a better Pokémon. I feel like Glalie is gonna be a pretty gimmicky Spikes setter suicide lead but it's pretty good at that as far as PU goes. Also taunt can stop the opponent's hazard so that's something. And as I haven't seen any sets yet, have a Suicide Glalie :D
Glalie @ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Spikes
-Freeze-Dry/ Ice Shard
-Explosion
-Taunt

Lopunny will probably be the most used out of the 6 new additions. It has okay Attack stat and alright bulk with that 84 Def / 96 SpD for base stats. Having access to Fake Out is pretty good as well 'cause a little bit of priority never hurts and the combination of Return-High Jump Kick can hit really hard. You gotta bring something along it to deal with ghosts but in general it can be a useful addition to HO teams with its base 105 Speed and access to Healing Wish. As far as sets go, I've seen a few useful already and I wouldn't put anything much different here so I'll just skip that. Also it doesn't have to fear Static paralysises thanks to Limber.

Just to put something at the end here, I had a ton of fun with Glalie-Lopunny hazard stacking team today, reached 1200 pretty quickly so yeah the new additions will give new options but will not change the meta imo.
 
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Yeh, just wanted to drop some of my thoughts on drops (haha).

Beedrill-I think jolly CB might have a place in the meta, not sure if Ninjask is really that eclipsing in this role due to Beedrill's superior coverage vs common stops (ie knock off crippling Misdreavus, Drill Run smacking Probopass), as I need to test. Drill Run also helps you cover grounded Poison types (Arbok and I guess opposing Beedrill), allowing you to effectively lay up T-Spikes. Roselia gets murdered by Turn, Jab, or X-Scissor and Beedrill switches in decently to Roselia actually. Who knew this useless Pokemon would make one of our brightest seem dull. lol

Edit: I was delusional due to lack of sleep, this thing is terrible.

Audino
-Pretty much a better and worse Lickilicky (ie worse stats, can be taunted but has regen)

Altaria-Really versatile and finally a viable Draco Meteor user (lol Sliggoo's is actually stronger). I wish it's offensive stats were better tbh, but we won't have to worry for too long about how weak it can be. NU will probably be taking this off our hands soon enough. Story of my life. cri etc

Glalie-Now watch me Spike, now watch me go boom. Great additon to offensive Hazard Stack with a decent matchup against most defoggers with STAB Freeze-Dry. And what it can't kill, it Taunts. Nuff said.

Camerupt-Camel, why can't you just be better. I guess Stunfisk might find some competition for it's slot on teams with Camel back, but tbh, not that much. Sure it checks Rotom and has a better match up against Roselia, as special attacking Ground types go, but like Rose isn't what it use to be and Rotom just wears it down or Subs as it comes in and Pain Splits to put it in range. Decent addition to the tier and makes a nice core with Altaria....in a world where every water and ground type doesn't have coverage for Flying and Dragon type's. Seriously, Camel, why you suck so hard?

I'll touch on Lopunny in a later post, I'm really tired.

P.S.- I think this has been my most casual post ever. I blame sleep deprivation. Back to old stuffy Tect after I get some rest. See ya.
 
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How is Audino a worse Lickilicky? It's way better lol

Like seriously Regenerator is insanely good on a mon like that
Lickilicky and Audino will most likely compete for a cleric. Audino has in most cases, a better ability, and better HP than Lickilicky. Lickilicky can actually DO Damage, something that Audino can't.
 

kay

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Well actually, here is the thing about Audino vs Lickilicky as far as power goes. Audino is able to run Double Edge due to Regenorator because it can heal off any of the recoil damage by switching out which is not something Lickilicky is able to do. It actually out damages a licki's Body Slam. Tho if Licki is running Return is does have a bit more sting to it, but the bonus damage isn't worth it over all the other traits Audino brings. I'll use Zebstrika as the punching bag to show this -

0 Atk Lickilicky Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 117-138 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Lickilicky Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 139-165 (47.7 - 56.7%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Audino Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 126-148 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

So what you're really netting with Licki is just a tad bit more power if you're using return/ less power but a para chance if you're using body slam and 10 more Sp.D.
But the down sides is that you're giving up on Regen.
Over all unless you're running an offensive Licki, I see Audino as just the better pick of the two as it can preform its cleric job much better.
 
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Altaria is a really neat addition to PU with multiple good sets that it can run. Myself and some others have been building teams around Altaria, and here is a set that is good. ManOfMany is largely the one who should get the credit because it was mostly his research with me kind of going along, but there is a cool variation of that set thought up by Solar Flare that has been doing some good work using ManOfMany's and my EVs.

Altaria @ Leftovers / Yache Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
Although the set's moves are pretty normal, the EVs are what is different. 104 Speed with a Jolly Nature lets it outspeed Zebstrika, and most importantly, Floatzel after one Dragon Dance. What makes this better than the normal 252 Atk / 252 Spe set though is that instead of wasting all those EVs on unneeded speed, this lets Altaria become much bulkier. There is really no reason to use the fully offensive one over this, unless you want to run Adamant. If you want to use Adamant, a spread of 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe is still much better than uselessly running full Speed. The other really cool thing about this set is the second item, the Yache Berry (created by Slar Flar). Yache Berry lets Altaria set up on Floatzel and other Water-types, then precede to KO them after just a little prior damage. This can make Altaria a pretty good win condition without having to worry about Ice-type coverage that is everywhere. Leftovers isn't even missed that much because Altaria has access to very reliable recovery in the form of Roost.
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Ice Punch vs. 148 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Altaria: 232-274 (70.7 - 83.5%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Altaria: 212-250 (64.6 - 76.2%)
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Altaria: 203-239 (61.8 - 72.8%)

I would have replays, but Showdown is being really weird and only letting people download replays.
 

Anty

let's drop
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Ok its been several days, so i feel like i can comment on this meta.


Audino is clearly the drop which has the most effect of the metagame, as not only has it become a staple on bulky teams, but it has also shown to be effective on balanced and even bulky offensive teams. Its ability to take on a range special attackers like Floatzel and Zebstrika is already a huge asset, but also being able to reliably pass off wishes makes it on of the best support mon in the tier. It works very well with most physical walls as the best ones, like Stunfisk and Relicanth, lack recovery and Audino can also bait in mons like Stoutland, which they can take on. Protect can even scout Stoutland to see if its locking itself into Superpower. The reason I really like this is because of its ability to check loads of set up sweepers for more offensively orientated teams, which means im not as pressured to run a scarfer. These mainly include Gorebyss and Regice, as Thunder Wave stops all of these cold (though often you have to sack Audino to KO them), though annoyingly Audino is set up fodder for bulkier sweepers like Pawniard (if no focus punch) and more crucially Vigoroth, while also giving switch ins to mons like Exeggutor which offensive teams really dislike (sleep powder Exeggutor is really good vs Audino teams). The other annoying thing when running Audino is choosing its movepool. It gets a range of support moves like wish, healing wish, encore and thunder wave, and even some nice offensive options like knock off, double edge, and drain punch. Overall Audino is a healthy addition to the tier, as it can take on difficult Pokemon, however still isn't too hard to pressure and can be exploited.

As for other good Pokemon in the metagame, Rotom-f is really standing out as Choice Scarf sets can be devastating for offensive teams, which will often just have to predict correctly, or send in bulky-ish mons like Grumpig which get warn down. Simipour is also another great Choice Scarf user as many teams are underprepared for Water-types (mainly offense teams as they cant always run roselia/politoed as it will often double up typing with floatzel/exeggutor) and it can easil clean if its in a position to spam Hydro Pumps as its the fastest common Pokemon in the tier. Trapinch is also a cool Pokemon, as paired with Electric types and Stoutland/Dodrio, you heavily pressure Stunfisk and Probopass (among other electric/rock types), meaning they often will not risk switching in, in case of a double switch (or you prevent them from spamming volt switch/getting up rocks), though annoyingly the most common electric type is now Rotom-f. Adamant and more attack EVs with Superpower could be a nice twist to trap Audino.

Out of interest, has anybody experimented with full stall? I assume Audino would help the playstyle out (even though Lickilicky is bulkier, passing wishes is so nice), but im not sure if the playstyle is viable due to mons like Exeggutor and Vigoroth being common.
 
but im not sure if the playstyle is viable due to mons like Exeggutor and Vigoroth being common.
hi! this is a problem! It's a good thing you mention this because I think that both Vigoroth and Exeggutor need to be suspect tested if we want PU to be a healthy metagame. We just got drops so I'm not calling for this immediately (maybe like a week from now works), but I really don't see the meta shifting away from this any time soon. Basically, these two Pokemon (Exeggutor moreso than Vigoroth, but Vigoroth is also more traditionally broken) give defensive teams an insanely hard time in the current metagame to the point where they aren't really seen as viable at all. Neither of these Pokemon really have dedicated stops that are easy to fit on teams, and Exeggutor in particular can get around them pretty easily (SpD Vullaby is 2HKOed by Specs Ancientpower after rocks and defensive Metang actually loses to Exeggutor even without Sleep Powder because it can just keep clicking Leaf Storm as Metang struggles to do much back. There's also the issue of sets like SubSitrus and SubPetaya which are even harder for slow teams to deal with). Meanwhile, Vigoroth also has few dedicated stops and can basically pick and choose its checks by running either Taunt or Substitute, while even being insanely hard to stop for offensive teams to beat without going way out of there way to prepare for it. There's really not much I can honestly think of that beats Vigoroth at all, bar Machoke, some variants of Monferno (this is pretty shaky), and fast Misdreavus. All in all I really do think that PU would be a much better tier with both of these Pokemon gone and therefore would like them to be suspected sooner rather than later.
 

Many

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is a Tiering Contributor
Exeggutor definitely does not need to be suspected. The checks to it on an offensive team are extremely numerous. They range from Zebstrika, to Specs Floatzel, to Monferno, to Stoutland, to Dodrio, etc. Simply put, Exeggutor's numerous weaknesses make it very easy to revenge kill. As far as Eggy getting a kill every time it steps into play- that isn't necessarily true either. Stuff like Sap Sipper Zebstrika, Jumpluff, and Rapidash can definitely take advantage of good predictions to get into play vs it. Eggy can switch into an average number of pokemon, including Stunfisk and defensive Politoed, but it definitely does not make up for its lack of defensive utility and the fact that it struggles to make multiple kills vs most teams in the meta.

You do bring up a valid point about Eggy not being broken, but unhealthy for the meta because it kills the viability of defensive teams. However, even Eggy leaving wouldn't make defensive teams much more viable. There's not much PU can do to solve the problem at this point- at least Audino helped a little bit. Additionally I'm not all too convinced on the "ethics" of banning something just to make a certain playstyle better.
 

kay

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It's not just defensive teams that Eggy basically keeps from being strong, it's also bulky team that suffer too. With Audino dropping it gives these two play styles something they've never had so far in pu in a reliable wish passer. It makes stall teams almost viable and is a huge boon to bulky teams who can abuse the wish passing to keep their bulky mons nice and healthy to keep sponging hits and dishing them out.

The problem is Eggy force the meta in one direct, it forces to into building faster offensive teams because that's the only realistic way of beating it. And a meta with 1 realistic play style is not a healthy metagame.
By banning it we will have a much more open metagame! We'll see more balanced teams coming out, more bulky offense teams, and maybe even stall. I completely agree with having to ban those 2 if our goal is having a healthy metagame where it's not just "Play HO because it's the most viable".

Not going to even comment on Vig because it's busted and has been for a long time.
 
Exeggutor definitely does not need to be suspected. The checks to it on an offensive team are extremely numerous.
I never said otherwise? You're completely missing the point of why it should be suspected, of course a mon with base 55 speed and no boosting moves isn't going to be broken if you only take offensive teams into account.
You do bring up a valid point about Eggy not being broken, but unhealthy for the meta because it kills the viability of defensive teams. However, even Eggy leaving wouldn't make defensive teams much more viable. There's not much PU can do to solve the problem at this point- at least Audino helped a little bit. Additionally I'm not all too convinced on the "ethics" of banning something just to make a certain playstyle better.
I'd argue that defensive teams would actually be pretty decent if these two Pokemon were banned. When I say "defensive teams" I don't just mean full stall (which yes, probably won't ever be that great in PU, but it's better than being completely unviable), I'm also talking about more defensively oriented balance teams which get completely annihilated by Exeggutor (yes, they can run something faster that can kill it, but the Exeggutor user can then just switch out and eventually force the balance team to have to sack something). Without these two impossible to deal with threats, it will be much better, especially because of Audino which not only helps a lot in general because it's such a great Wish passer but is also a special Floatzel counter that doesn't just die to physical Floatzel clicking the right move, which is enormously helpful because it means you don't have to rely on correctly guessing its set. I really don't see how anyone can oppose a suspect for a mon that has such an awful impact on the metagame.[/quote]
 

Many

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is a Tiering Contributor
So after some thought I see what you guys are saying. It would indeed help balance the meta by suspecting eggy and therefore placing fewer limitations on defensive playstyles. Although Eggy isn't broken, I guess it is unhealthy.

Going along with this, I would also like to Propose a Suspect for Machoke. Machoke should be included in the package because it is extremely limiting for defensive playstyles, and basically any playstyle using an Audino because it gives Machoke free switch-ins. The only reliable Machoke switch-ins happen to be Gourgeist-Super and Colbur Exeggutor. Clefairy doesn't count and neither does Tangela as both pokemon are absolutely destroyed by Knock Off. Pelipper and Altaria can be killed by ThunderPunch or Ice Punch respectively- in fact, Machoke can fit both of these moves on its moveslot with little to no difficulty. Bullet Punch is neat for offense but is expendable. Arbok is a nice check for offensive teams, but still takes a pretty hefty chunk from Knock Off or Close Combat. Just like I don't want to run Vullaby, Zweilous, or Metang on every somewhat passive team to account for Eggy, I don't want to have to run Gourgeist-Super or Arbok on every defensive-oriented team to deal with Machoke.

Besides this trio of ultimate wallbreakers/stallbreakers (Exeggutor, Machoke, Vigoroth) nothing does even as close to as much harassment vs defensive teams. By removing at least 1 of these mons, we can significantly boost the viability of the defensive playstyle as it will not be such a huge pain in teambuilding having to take into account hard counters of each of these three mons.
 

kay

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I think suspecting Dynamic Punch would be a little more reasonable then just flat out banning Machoke as the Dpunch sets are the ones that are really annoying to fight and have any merit for banning.

There is a lot of parallel you draw from the Chatter suspect to this, in that it's random to the point of being uncompetitive. No matter what you switch into it be it a wall or something offensive you HAVE to fight confusion to do anything. That and they're both super frustrating to play against.
I think just flat out suspecting Machoke is way over the top as without the Dpunch set it's really manageable both offensively and defensively. Suspecting the mon over all is just not needed.

Over all I wouldn't disagree with suspecting Dpunch/ No Guard on Machoke but I'm heavily against suspecting the whole mon.
 

2xTheTap

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This post will not be related to the impending suspect of Vigoroth / Exeggutor (or possibly Dynamic Punch?), but I just wanted to comment on various metagame trends to give more casual players of the tier a comprehensive, yet concise overview of how the relevant drops we've received recently (i.e. Bouffalant, Pawniard, Exeggutor, Gorebyss, Audino, Glalie, Camerupt, Altaria) have impacted teambuilding.


To start, Exeggutor has probably had the most dramatic impact on our metagame. Its entry into the tier has increased the usage of Bug-type coverage on various Pokemon, meaning you can expect to see these coverage moves more often:

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Kadabra's Signal Beam
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Grumpig's Signal Beam
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Stunfisk's HP Bug (or Sludge Wave, but if you're investing in SpA to OHKO Exeggutor as it switches in, HP Bug lets you preserve more bulk as it does more damage to Eggy than Sludge Wave does)
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Adamant / Jolly Quilladin's Pin Missile
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Sawsbuck's Megahorn
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Bouffalant's Megahorn


With Pawniard dropping, 220 once again became the new benchmark to hit in Speed, and Fighting-type coverage moves have increased for certain Pokemon. Not only that, but it landing has also made Pokemon such as Stunfisk, defensive Pelipper, and Monferno better on the whole, which in turn created other meta trends that I'll touch on in a moment.

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Roselia is now normally ran offensively with a spread of 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Speed Modest (220 Speed total there) and runs HP Fighting
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Grumpig runs enough Speed for Pawniard with a Colbur Berry, along with either HP Fighting or Focus Blast
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Misdreavus' minimum Speed should be 220, and is now able to run HP Fighting for Pawniard again if you're not running Pain Split or double status
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Vigoroth no longer runs 241 Speed to creep Misdreavus which were previously creeping Mightyena; instead, Misdreavus now creeps Pawniard by +1, which means Vigoroth now creeps Misdreavus by +1 at 221 Speed total and runs a Careful nature over Jolly

While it is probably fairly obvious by this point, Pawniard dropping also benefited team archetypes based on stacking hazards (whether those hazards be Sticky Web or Spikes + SR) by giving them another option for punishing Defogs outside of Purugly's Defiant. There have been other ramifications related to Pawniard dropping, such as Duosion's AA set becoming much worse.


Monferno being more common thanks to Pawniard, Exeggutor, Bouffalant, and Audino all dropping (as I stated in my last post here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-pu-stage-4-october-all-over-throh-remains-banned.3554725/) means that physically defensive Stunfisk, Grumpig, physically defensive Pelipper, and Altaria especially will be used frequently to account for Monferno weaknesses during teambuilding (although Monferno possibly running Thunder Punch to mess with Pelipper / U-turn to mess with Grumpig is still problematic). Offensively, faster options that can either take a Mach Punch like Choice Scarf Mr. Mime, or simply outspeed it with its own priority like LO mixed Floatzel with Aqua Jet have also been used more often to check Monferno.

+

Exeggutor’s Chlorophyll set (Modest in Sun: 418 / Timid: 458, or ran with bulk for CS Rotom-F at 448 Speed total) and SS Gorebyss (Modest after SS: 406 / Timid: 446) dropping caused an increase in the usage of Scarfers and fast Pokemon in general, assuming your team doesn't already contain fat answers to these special attackers such as Tank Regice or Audino:

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Timid LO Electrode (416) - beats Modest SS Gorebyss
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Choice Scarf Modest Chatot (420 with HP Fighting) - outspeeds Modest Egg / Modest Gore and OHKOes both after SR
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CS Monferno (426) - outspeeds Modest Egg / Modest Gorebyss and OHKOes Egg, but needs prior damage on Gorebyss
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CB Ninjask (either Jolly (460) or Adamant (419) - beats Modest Egg / Modest Gorebyss if Adamant, and Timid variants of both if Jolly; needs prior damage on Gorebyss, but OHKOes Egg
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CS Rotom-F (447) wins against these two, except for Timid Chloro variants of Egg
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CS Mr. Mime (459) outspeeds both, but needs prior damage on both targets
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CS Sawsbuck (475) OHKOes both with Megahorn on Egg / Seed Bomb or Horn Leech on Gorebyss
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CS Modest Raichu (478) outspeeds and OHKOes Gorebyss, but needs prior damage to beat Eggy in Sun
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CS Dodrio (492) outspeeds both and OHKOes Egg, but needs prior damage on Gorebyss
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CS Modest Floatzel (493) outspeeds both, but needs prior damage on both targets
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CS Simipour (496) outspeeds both, but needs prior damage on both targets


As stated above, Audino dropping has had a significant impact on shaping the meta, as it walls many special threats and can stop them with Thunder Wave, meaning that Choice Scarf mons (those above basically) are not nearly as necessary now as they were for revenge killing threats such as SS Gorebyss.

What's more, is that it provides the tier with a more reliable Wish user in general, which greatly benefits more defensive styles of teams. Lickilicky's Wishes that it passes are slightly bigger than Audino's, but the issue with Licklicky being used for Wishpassing is that it is often forced to use its Wishes for itself rather than for its teammates due to its lack of Regenerator. Audino is able to Wish, and then pass the Wish, while simultaneously recovering some HP via Regenerator; this in turn lets it come back in to do the same thing again and again.

Audino is yet another reason why Fighting coverage is so good in this tier, as we have many Normal-types at the moment (Bouffalant, Vigoroth, Stoutland, etc.) that need to be accounted for during teambuilding.


Bouffalant dropping has in general given the tier answers to various Grass-types via its ability Sap Sipper, both offensive Grass-types and defensive ones, which directly hindered Roselia and was part of the reason why it recently fell out of S rank.

On the opposite end, faster, floating Ghost types with access to Will-O-Wisp, essentially Misdreavus and Drifblim, have become more common for their ability to hard counter SubSD variants of Bouffalant that run Frustration and Earthquake. Gourgeist-Super also beats Bouffalant handedly for the same reason, while Spell Tag WoW + 3 Attacks Dusknoir is able to at least get a Burn in before Bouffalant uses Substitute, assuming Dusknoir outspeeds. Bouffalant is another reason why Monferno has increased in usage, given LO Monferno checks and OHKOes Bouffalant if a Substitute hasn't been set up yet.


While it's probably the least relevant among these recent meta trends, Camerupt dropping has provided another answer to threatening Electric-types in the tier, such as HP Ice Zebstrika and Choice Scarf Rotom-Frost. Rotom-F's Blizzard misses the 2HKO, which allows Camerupt to setup SR fairly reliably. Audino Wishpassing to Camerupt is a nice strategy to keep SR up on the field throughout matches.

I'm also in agreement with the others before me who've stated that offensive variants of Camerupt are pretty lackluster and SpDef sets are simply more effective.

As far as offensive answers go, Camerupt dropping has given Electric-types in the tier the option of running Water coverage. While not ideal given you lose out on Lightning Rod, Surf is an option for Raichu that lets it OHKO Camerupt after a Nasty Plot, and HP Water is a possible option for the others that don't have access to Surf to let them 2HKO Camerupt on the switch after Leftovers/SR have been factored in.

252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Camerupt: 135-159 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Camerupt: 261-308 (76 - 89.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Camerupt: 515-608 (150.1 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There have been many other changes in the meta recently, and this post barely touches on Altaria and completely misses talking about Glalie's ability to set up Spikes on many Pokemon in the tier via its decent Speed stat, but I felt these were overall the most pertinent.
 
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I also thought about Dynamic Punch these days and how unhealthy it is, given how Chatter got already dealt with and banned, while Dynamic Punch is still here, there are some differences between the two but they can be compared pretty well. So, I'm also advocating in favour of a Dynamic Punch suspect / quicktest at least after Vigoroth / Exeggutor suspect ends, in case they do get suspected, otherwise as soon as possible. More in favour of a quicktest since it's pretty clear Dynamic Punch is extremely unhealthy and is another factor that makes Machoke the pain it is for especially defensive teams. In fact, Machoke is already a pretty big problem for defensive teams because of its access to both a Fighting-type STAB, and Knock Off, which make it hard to switch into, while also being kind of bulky thanks to Eviolite and hard to bring down for things such as stall and slow paced teams. Dynamic Punch is just the icing on the cake and makes Machoke a little over the top in case it gets a self-hit, as it would allow Machoke to break through its already few checks and counters.

If you compare Dynamic Punch to Chatter, the first thing that will stand out to you is that Ghost-types are immune to Dynamic Punch, while Chatter hits every Pokemon apart from things that carry Soundproof such as Mr. Mime. Another factor is that Chatot can abuse of self hits better than Machoke, as other than doing a lot of damage, Chatot could've also used Chatter to set up key Substitutes and at times even find set up opportunities with Nasty Plot on Pokemon that were meant to not be set up fodders at all. While Machoke can't do that to an extent, Dynamic Punch still is uncompetitive as it relies on luck to fully succeed, and makes Machoke even harder to be dealt with by like every playstyle, but defensive ones struggle the most especially when carrying slow tanks and walls or Pokemon that can't KO Machoke fast enough. Also, regarding the Dynamic Punch not hitting Ghost-types, the access to Knock Off also greatly deters Ghost-types such as Misdreavus, which gets heavily crippled by it, from switching in on Machoke directly or other Ghost-types as they fear Guts sets.

Overall, Dynamic Punch is just unhealthy and I don't see any reason to keep it in PU, especially as Machoke wouldn't even suffer too much from the loss of the move. Machoke would be more predictable I guess, but it would still able to run an offensive set because of access to things like Close Combat, and while having to run a STAB that lowers bulk sucks, it's a sacrifice you can make when running an AoA set, as its made to just break through stuff that can't KO it easily or slower Pokemon. RestTalk sets can run Close Combat or even Cross Chop, missing Cross Chop is unlucky but the set it's kind of durable so not that big of a deal, you can run No Guard + Rest if you're really scared of misses though.
 

Funbot28

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The thing is with banning Dynamic Punch is that the move would have to be broken on all users in the tier, which to my knowledge it isn't (it only breaks Machoke imo). Chatter was different as the only available user of the move besides Smeargle was Chatot. Banning only D-Punch to me is kinda like "keep mon by banning broken element that is not broken on other mons". We should just stick on suspecting Machoke and not Dynamic Punch.
 

Josh

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It might only be broken on Machoke, but its still uncompetitive as fuck on anything else that might choose to run it. There's literally no other Pokemon that would care if it was banned on a competitive level, only on a memey hax team level. Banning Machoke takes away from the tier, but banned Dynamic Punch takes away nothing besides uncompetitiveness.
 
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