Metagame np: PU stage 7 - Eh

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So yeah eh we got Mawile and not Torterra or Muk or whatever you guys were hoping for. So yeah be polite and please think twice before asking for an unreasonable suspect test and have fun on the ladder with this moderately cool new toy once the ladder gets updated


ALSO THIS IS THE ONLY ALLOWED MAWILE SPRITE IN THIS THREAD
 
Hi. So I'm just gonna post a few sets I think will be pretty solid in this meta. Overall, Mawile is really nice but I've already seen people overestimating it. It's something that can hit hard, yeah, but for SD sets, it can be very hard to find setup opportunities, and with Mawile's low Speed and defense stats, basically anything faster than base 50 that doesn't die to Sucker Punch and has some offensive presence can offensively check it, so keep this in mind before jumping to conclusions.


Mawile @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch

So if I had to guess, this will most likely be Mawile's main set. Life Orb Sheer Force lets Mawile hit really hard and with an Adamant nature and max Speed, you're still able to outspeed things like Golem while having a strong Sucker Punch. You can actually run Stealth Rock > SD to turn Mawile into an offensive Stealth Rocker, but Mawile loses to like all of the tier's Stealth Rockers so it's really not gonna get many opportunities to get them up.


Mawile @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Play Rough / Iron Head
- Toxic
- Baton Pass

Here's a look at what the defensive set will probably be. Having Intimidate along with Stealth Rock and Baton Pass makes Mawile a great support Pokemon, switching into Pokemon such as Leafeon and Dodrio, get up Stealth Rock, cripple a switchin, or pivot out into a Pokemon that gives the user a more favorable matchup. Play Rough is meant for mainly Machoke, while Iron Head deals more damage to things like Regice, so that will depend on the rest of the team.


Mawile @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe or 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough / Iron Head
- Baton Pass

Here's another pretty cool set which I've been using along with Stoutland in sand. Basically you combine your Normal check with a Swords Dance passer, making the likes of Stoutland or Simisage super threatening. A fast or defensive spread can be used here, though my only problem with defensive is that you're outsped by Golem, which can KO you with some chip damage.


Mawile @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Play Rough
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Blast

Here's an AoA set whose main purpose is basically to lure things like Gourgeist-XL, Pawniard, and Klang. This is probably the best threatening set for stall, which has gotten a bit better as of recent.

Overall Mawile is definitely a solid Pokemon, I just don't think it'll be insanely impactful.
 
(Insert post where ManOfMany hypes webs)

Mawile is a really cool pokemon. It's really weird as it has a great physically defensive typing but can't take a special hit to save its life. It is highly reliant on Sucker Punch vs offense but it can really punch HUGE holes in defensive cores. And it also has a funny physically defensive set that seems to be equally viable as the offensive version as it is a reliable SR setter with momentum- and you can never have too many Stoutland checks.

The main problem with Mawile in my opinion would have to be its speed. It is slow even for a wallbreaker and therefore is outrun by everything except defensive pokemon. Like Rampardos or Glaceon, you can get it into play with a smart double switch and just proceed to wreck everything in your way, but other than that it's not coming in. Offensive Mawile is absurdly frail so having a resist doesn't mean too much to it as it can't switch into even normal or flying types. (However it can beat them 1v1, which is certainly a plus). Having a +2 Sucker Punch that OHKOs everything is definitely great though, but shouldn't be impossible to deal with as it's no different than dealing with Pawniard in this aspect.

One thing I will say is that Mawile is a really cool addition to Sticky Webs. I built a webs team to take advantage of Mawile as a SR user and wallbreaker and it's been doing really well in the battles I've played. It functions like Pawniard except it hits much harder and doesn't give momentum to dangerous things like Vullaby and Monferno, and it also offensively checks opposing Pawniard. Obviously the speed is still of an issue on Webs but far less of one now that you can outspeed stuff like Monferno and Grumpig easily.

I still have yet to try the defensive set, which seems much more splashable than offensive Mawile but obviously less threatening. Offensive Mawile will probably be harder to fit on standard teams since it brings nothing to the team defensively so I expect to see a lot more of the Intimidate set once the meta stabilizes.

Also Taunt seems like another cool way to beat Gourgeist-XL if you feel like running that instead of Fire Blast.
 

LordST

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Hey so I was looking around Mawile's huge movepool and found this fun little tool:

Mawile @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Iron Head
- Magnet Rise
- Sucker Punch

Essentially what magnet rise does is let you win 1v1 against mons like Adamant Golem, Adamant Crustle, Marowak, etc. If Jolly Golem and Crustle are threats you can just run Jolly on Mawile yourself to beat them at the cost of some power. Giving up SD or Fire Blast may not be worth it in the long run, but i thought this would be a neat little anti lead set.
 

5gen

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I wouldn't be surprised to see offensive mons like Floatzel or Zeb running Substitute fearing Mawile's Sucker Punch. I also feel that having Mawile in the tier will make bulky offense the go to offensive style (even more than BO is already used lol) because mons such as Bouff, Probo or Altaria can check it, outspeed (Probo can't) and deal heavy damage without much fear of Sucker Punch.
 

Mawile @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Play Rough
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Blast
I've used this set a bit, and it's insanely threatening to defensive teams. Fire Blast essentially turns Mawile from a slow, decently strong Pokemon that can't take many hits or get past physical walls into a very good wallbreaker. Life Orb Mawile 2HKOes just about everything in the tier, and its amazing typing and decent physical bulk mean that many defensive mons can't really touch it (especially VULLABY), so it can get some free switches here and there and start throwing out really strong moves. SD will be pretty good too, but I don't think it will be as good since it relies way more on Sucker Punch and is easily checked by a few common mons, particularly Monferno. However, on webs this is much less of an issue, so I think SD Mawile will shine there. Defensive seems like it will have a lot of potential too (it was good in BW PU even without the fairy typing), but I haven't really seen anyone use it yet. Finally, SD pass sets might be pretty good as well.
 
Without actually discussing mawile itself, i feel like the sd pass should be a defensive pivot set with minimal speed for a safer bp, nevertheless i wanted to discuss the meta and what trends i think will become more relevant now that mawile has joined the tier.

  • First things first; a rise in popularity of fire types such as torkoal, ninetails, flareon etc running quirky sets. Most commonly a substantial rise in will-o wisp fire types for sure. Torkoal for those bulkier teams, ninetails being an offensive check with will-o / sub as a way of bypassing sucker punch.
  • A substantial increase of offensive teams in the foreseeable future simply because of how well mawile dismantles bulkier cores with the combo of knock off / fire blast and sd + play rough / sucker. That way, the tier has a way of combating the wall breaking power that mawile carries.
  • A third prediction is a substantial reduction in "normal spam" or normal wall breakers such as dodrio / stout that carry choiced items for fear that they can give offensive mawile setup or being walled by pivot defensive mawile.

For one mon joining the tier, i think it will completely shape the way PU will be in the coming weeks, and a bold prediction for maybe in a months time, i can see a potential suspect on the cards from just how well it dismantles bulkier cores whilst having the amazing typing + power + priority.
 
Welcome to the PU tier our new resident Mawile

I personally was neither terrified or excited with Mawile dropping but it very much was interesting, shown to be an effective threat with some decent versatility to boot it has also shown several downsides such as Speed and Frailty which is honestly good to see showing Mawile isn't all that. With many posts already done on its Set diversity and plausible feelings of a suspect test, personally against but understand why some would feel as such, i'm going to focus on two small things in particular.


Probopass has returned with its trapping capabilities.

For a couple of months now Probopass has been hot topic on the VR and in the PU chatroom on its overall viability with many being split about its overall effectiveness, Crustle dropping was what originally allowed Probopass to start showing its personal set diversity and capabilities on more offense based teams instead of the generic balance or bulky-offense all of this was with the Timid Taunt set posted by 2xTheTap which was a topic going around during that time.

When Mawile dropped many turned to Probopass to see if it had its former main niche back however when they saw Probopass had the chance of being 2HKOd by AoA sets and OHKOd by SD sets it was immediately rejected and while i can somewhat understand that it seems very narrow minded to assume Mawile will always get the high rolls against Probopass in order for it to not be taken out. I've personally always been a fan of Probopass despite its few shortcomings and decided to make a slight update towards its EV spread for those who are scared of Mawile and still wish to use Probopass as the official trapper which originally gave it recognition.

Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 172 HP / 36 Def / 252 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch
252+ SpA Probopass Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 242-286 (100.4 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 172 HP / 36 Def Probopass: 255-302 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery [37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock]

or

Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 36 Def / 224 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Probopass: 255-302 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

224+ SpA Probopass Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 236-278 (97.9 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO [guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock]

Both sets act similar with simply small differences shown in that calcs however with the first one having the ability to outspeed base 45's with no speed investment such as Defensive Machoke which is something else to mention. Mawile also has only one way of possibly escaping Probopass and that is with Baton Pass which allows it to escape no harm done, on paper this is grand for defensive sets predicting Probopass to come in and gain momentum however on offensive sets Mawile loses out on an important moveslot which is generally hard enough to justify something over the already standard SD and AoA sets.


The Fire-Type Revolution
For some time now the Fire-Type has been underwhelming in PU with Monferno being the only notable Fire-Type to come across however with a boon of Bulky Grass-Types and wanting the ability to wall or check Mawile there has been a lot more discussion on the other fire types not named Monferno or Simisear this includes the recent popularity of Rapidash,Camerupt,Torkoal and Nimbasa Ninetales all of which are gaining a lot more discussion and usage in the past couple of days.

I'm not quite sure if this is just fear hype or actual development of the PU meta however it certainly is nice to see more discussion,set ideas and branched thoughts come across with the Fire-Types of PU and i certainly look forward to seeing how this possibly develops and how common the prior mentioned Fire-Types possibly become.



So far i have been enjoying the development of the current meta with a lot more creative ideas,sets and discussions continuing and i look forward to seeing what else Mawile potentially may bring in the future
 
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mawile.gif

#thuglife
Mawile @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 136 HP / 156 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Crunch
- Play Rough
- Rock Slide

CB Mawile is an... interesting option. The given EVs let Mawile speed creep Armaldo and Lead Golem while hitting just as hard as Jolly Mawile with 252 Atk EVs. Crunch is used on this set because being locked into Sucker Punch SUCKS, while Rock Slide is there to hit stuff like Swanna super effectively. A Scarf set with a Jolly nature and a spread of 252 Atk /4 Def / 252 Spe can be used as well, but I like this one more.

EDIT: Surprised galbia hasn't deleted this yet.
 
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I can't see why you'd actually use choice band mawile over life orb. there's a pretty small drop in power and only sucker punch has recoil, plus the ability to switch moves is really important for a wallbreaker like mawile. really, standard life orb mawile with play rough, iron head, fire blast, and sucker punch is good enough at breaking down pretty much any defensive core that doesn't involve defensive relicanth or a defensive fire type while also not being dead weight against offense. variation from the norm is cool, but i really don't think wallbreaker mawile needs it.
 
I can't see why you'd actually use choice band mawile over life orb. there's a pretty small drop in power and only sucker punch has recoil, plus the ability to switch moves is really important for a wallbreaker like mawile. really, standard life orb mawile with play rough, iron head, fire blast, and sucker punch is good enough at breaking down pretty much any defensive core that doesn't involve defensive relicanth or a defensive fire type while also not being dead weight against offense. variation from the norm is cool, but i really don't think wallbreaker mawile needs it.
Hey, I didn't say it was good. It's kind of like that god-awful AV Crustle set I came up with: It's interesting, but it's not viable at all. Anyways, speaking of defensive Fire-types...

ninetales.gif

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Flamethrower
- Calm Mind

Defensive Calm Mind users are pretty damn good in OU, but PU CM users are a bit more offensive. Ninetales is a nice addition to the defensive CM pool, as it can stall out the opponent with Will-O-Wisp while waiting for the right moment to let loose with Flamethrower. Too bad it doesn't have any reliable recovery...
 
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Hey, I didn't say it was good. It's kind of like that god-awful AV Crustle set I came up with: It's interesting, but it's not viable at all. Anyways, speaking of defensive Fire-types...

View attachment 62211
Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Heat Wave
- Calm Mind

Defensive Calm Mind users are pretty damn good in OU, but PU CM users are a bit more offensive. Ninetales is a nice addition to the defensive CM pool, as it can stall out the opponent with Will-O-Wisp while waiting for the right moment to let loose with Heat Wave. Too bad it doesn't have any reliable recovery...
There is no reason to use Heat Wave in this kind of set (or any set in case of almost any poke actually) because the power difference between Flamethrower and Heat Wave is negligible but the accuracy difference can clearly make you lose a game... And if you compare the differences between Heat Wave and Fire Blast then the accuracy difference is just lower than the difference in power... So, if you want power go with Fire Blast but this kind of set usually likes reliability and then your move should just be Flamethrower!

I guess another option for healing on such a move could be just ChestoRest... At least it's more reliable than Pain Split...
 
I was holding this off because I didn't want to create any controversy for PUPL...after seeing the RU suspect test I gained confidence that this is indeed possible.

What's the problem? Machoke.


Machoke is the single most unhealthy, broken, and annoying pokemon to face in the tier. I think almost everyone can agree with me that it is making the metagame less fun and is a huge problem to teambuild and play against. At first offensive pressure was enough to keep this thing down, but ever since the invention of the Defensive Rest-Talk set it just got a lot harder to deal with. I'm sure even some of the newer players who only learned PUPL are also questioning "Why is this mon legal?" Enough is enough, it's time to suspect this thing.

here are my points:

1. Machoke is broken. Machoke is one of the most ridiculous pokemon to face as it 1v1s pretty much every pokemon that is not a fighting resist. Due to its immense bulk with Eviolite and possible defensive investment, many offensive pokemon struggle to 2HKO or even 3HKO this thing. However it nearly always 2HKOs offensive pokemon back with Dynamic Punch or Knock Off- add to this a potential 50% chance Dynamic Punch full confusion, and Machoke can rest up and simply forget it got damaged at all. Simply by bringing it in vs an offensive pokemon can cause them to sack it to get damage off on Machoke- this is pretty much the definition of broken. In fact, it is not uncommon to see people Machoke taking out two or three pokemon, as they struggle to break through this thing, leaving the rest of their teams easy picking. It has just way too good of a matchup vs a majority of PU to be balanced in this tier.

2. Machoke has few counters.
Gourgeist-Super is the only true switch-in to Machoke. That's it. There's just one ghost type who can reliably switch it in and stall it out- and guess what- it doesn't fit on offensive teams or even offensive-leaning balance, and it provides . You might say "Well there are some fighting resists." That's certainly true- Swanna, Jumpluff, Grumpig, Mime, defensive Mawile, Arbok can all switch in on Dynamic Punch reasonably, and will most likely beat Machoke in a 1v1 situation. However here's the problem- Dynamic Punch confusion gives them the incredible 50% chance to lose total momentum for their team. If the foe's Arbok hits itself in confusion, you can switch to the Arbok check, Golem, without losing any momentum or having Sturdy broken or anything. Machoke is able to reward the user 50% of time with free switches simply by using Machoke. Finally, although I'm focusing mainly on the most broken of sets, defensive Rest-Talk, half the pokemon on this list get lured by Offensive Machoke sets. T-punch lures Swanna, Ice Punch lures Jumpluff, Earthquake lures Arbok, etc. And it can fit 2 of these moves on the same set! There really isn't any reliable way to deal with Machoke and not get into a possible 50% loss of all momentum without using Gourgeist-Super, and it's awful.

3. Machoke is overcentralizing.
Machoke is the single scariest threat I have to prepare for when teambuilding. This alone does not mean it should be banned, but it is the sheer extent at which it warps teambuilding. You may say stuff like Rotom-F and Floatzel are similar, but the situation is entirely different. You can have some pokemon weak vs Floatzel or Rotom-F on your team, but they will never threaten to 1v1 your entire team if that one pokemon dies. All you really need are one check/counter to them, and then multiple pokemon that can at least try to get some damage on it or revenge killing. Machoke is different- simply having one fighting resist isn't enough- what if that gets confused, and then just dies? Machoke proceeds to 1v1 huge or at least large portions of your team. I've found that in order to not have a large disadvantage against Machoke you need to pack multiple fighting resists/immunities on your team (which is a lot considering how few reliable fighting resists PU has. PU is not NU). It's really made me paranoid when building especially when building without Gourgeist-Super. Simply relying on offensive pressure is not enough, because it has happened so many times as you try to Knock Off Machoke or wear it down to defeatable range, you get confused and actually accomplish very little. Dynamic Punch is such a massive massive copout that makes offensive pressure, or even offensive pressure + 1 fighting resist, a very unsatisfactory way to deal with Machoke. Coupled with all the offensive threats you already want to deal with, Machoke just makes teambuilding in PU a lot harder and a lot les fun, when you have to insert your obligatory fighting resist to not get destroyed.

4. Machoke makes the tier less fun. Let's be honest. Nobody likes playing against confusion. No one likes being forced to take a Dynamic Punch and getting super nervous just hoping you won't hit yourself because then you'll lose the match. Yeah I know, we can't ban confusion- it's part of pokemon, and we can't ban Dynamic Punch either. But we can ban one of the single best and most popular pokemon in the tier, who with its sheer bulk is able to confuse literally every pokemon on a team. Machoke's Dynamic Punch makes the game less skillful and literally turns the game into a bunch of 50-50s. If we don't want to reward people winning matches by coinflips time after time again, then we should make a move to get this pokemon out of the tier.


Here are some sample calcs for those who don't play much PU, using Machoke's defensive rest-talk spread, just to show the insane bulk it really has:
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 107-126 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 176-210 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO

I'll add replays later when I have more time.

so yeah, let's kick this cancerous shit out of PU :)

 
I was holding this off because I didn't want to create any controversy for PUPL...after seeing the RU suspect test I gained confidence that this is indeed possible.

What's the problem? Machoke.


Machoke is the single most unhealthy, broken, and annoying pokemon to face in the tier. I think almost everyone can agree with me that it is making the metagame less fun and is a huge problem to teambuild and play against. At first offensive pressure was enough to keep this thing down, but ever since the invention of the Defensive Rest-Talk set it just got a lot harder to deal with. I'm sure even some of the newer players who only learned PUPL are also questioning "Why is this mon legal?" Enough is enough, it's time to suspect this thing.

here are my points:

1. Machoke is broken. Machoke is one of the most ridiculous pokemon to face as it 1v1s pretty much every pokemon that is not a fighting resist. Due to its immense bulk with Eviolite and possible defensive investment, many offensive pokemon struggle to 2HKO or even 3HKO this thing. However it nearly always 2HKOs offensive pokemon back with Dynamic Punch or Knock Off- add to this a potential 50% chance Dynamic Punch full confusion, and Machoke can rest up and simply forget it got damaged at all. Simply by bringing it in vs an offensive pokemon can cause them to sack it to get damage off on Machoke- this is pretty much the definition of broken. In fact, it is not uncommon to see people Machoke taking out two or three pokemon, as they struggle to break through this thing, leaving the rest of their teams easy picking. It has just way too good of a matchup vs a majority of PU to be balanced in this tier.
2. Machoke has few counters. Gourgeist-Super is the only true switch-in to Machoke. That's it. There's just one ghost type who can reliably switch it in and stall it out- and guess what- it doesn't fit on offensive teams or even offensive-leaning balance, and it provides . You might say "Well there are some fighting resists." That's certainly true- Swanna, Jumpluff, Grumpig, Mime, defensive Mawile, Arbok can all switch in on Dynamic Punch reasonably, and will most likely beat Machoke in a 1v1 situation. However here's the problem- Dynamic Punch confusion gives them the incredible 50% chance to lose total momentum for their team. If the foe's Arbok hits itself in confusion, you can switch to the Arbok check, Golem, without losing any momentum or having Sturdy broken or anything. Machoke is able to reward the user 50% of time with free switches simply by using Machoke. Finally, although I'm focusing mainly on the most broken of sets, defensive Rest-Talk, half the pokemon on this list get lured by Offensive Machoke sets. T-punch lures Swanna, Ice Punch lures Jumpluff, Earthquake lures Arbok, etc. And it can fit 2 of these moves on the same set! There really isn't any reliable way to deal with Machoke and not get into a possible 50% loss of all momentum without using Gourgeist-Super, and it's awful.
3. Machoke is overcentralizing. Machoke is the single scariest threat I have to prepare for when teambuilding. This alone does not mean it should be banned, but it is the sheer extent at which it warps teambuilding. You may say stuff like Rotom-F and Floatzel are similar, but the situation is entirely different. You can have some pokemon weak vs Floatzel or Rotom-F on your team, but they will never threaten to 1v1 your entire team if that one pokemon dies. All you really need are one check/counter to them, and then multiple pokemon that can at least try to get some damage on it or revenge killing. Machoke is different- simply having one fighting resist isn't enough- what if that gets confused, and then just dies? Machoke proceeds to 1v1 huge or at least large portions of your team. I've found that in order to not have a large disadvantage against Machoke you need to pack multiple fighting resists/immunities on your team (which is a lot considering how few reliable fighting resists PU has. PU is not NU). It's really made me paranoid when building especially when building without Gourgeist-Super. Simply relying on offensive pressure is not enough, because it has happened so many times as you try to Knock Off Machoke or wear it down to defeatable range, you get confused and actually accomplish very little. Dynamic Punch is such a massive massive copout that makes offensive pressure, or even offensive pressure + 1 fighting resist, a very unsatisfactory way to deal with Machoke. Coupled with all the offensive threats you already want to deal with, Machoke just makes teambuilding in PU a lot harder and a lot les fun, when you have to insert your obligatory fighting resist to not get destroyed.

4. Machoke makes the tier less fun. Let's be honest. Nobody likes playing against confusion. No one likes being forced to take a Dynamic Punch and getting super nervous just hoping you won't hit yourself because then you'll lose the match. Yeah I know, we can't ban confusion- it's part of pokemon, and we can't ban Dynamic Punch either. But we can ban one of the single best and most popular pokemon in the tier, who with its sheer bulk is able to confuse literally every pokemon on a team. Machoke's Dynamic Punch makes the game less skillful and literally turns the game into a bunch of 50-50s. If we don't want to reward people winning matches by coinflips time after time again, then we should make a move to get this pokemon out of the tier.

Here are some sample calcs for those who don't play much PU, using Machoke's defensive rest-talk spread, just to show the insane bulk it really has:
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 107-126 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 176-210 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO

I'll add replays later when I have more time.

so yeah, let's kick this cancerous shit out of PU :)
I agree, Machoke is honestly ruining the tier with how overcentralizing and strong it is. I hate battling it, I feel like scum using it, I get treated like scum using it (d-punch) and it's versatile enough that you can predict wrong and get horribly punished by it. If you don't burn the no-guard set, you're gonna be getting hit hard by dynamic punches all game, but if you do burn it and it ends up being guts, guts boosted Close Combats are NEVER fun to deal with. Ever.
 
I 3rd this, while i dont think machoke's guts sets are broken, its access to no gaurd+ dynamic punch make it so even things that should beat it in most cases (pig, swanna, kadabra + others) get put into 50/50s with confusion.
I belive that this is very similar to chatter being banned previously. It creates an unfair meta where players with less skill can beat players with considerable skill simply by having machoke in preview in some cases.
Dynamic punch gives free turns with little skill required in the same way chatter did and while only one mon got chatter, a few get d punch but none have the ability to abuse the free turns in the same manner as machoke.
 
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I was holding this off because I didn't want to create any controversy for PUPL...after seeing the RU suspect test I gained confidence that this is indeed possible.

What's the problem? Machoke.


Machoke is the single most unhealthy, broken, and annoying pokemon to face in the tier. I think almost everyone can agree with me that it is making the metagame less fun and is a huge problem to teambuild and play against. At first offensive pressure was enough to keep this thing down, but ever since the invention of the Defensive Rest-Talk set it just got a lot harder to deal with. I'm sure even some of the newer players who only learned PUPL are also questioning "Why is this mon legal?" Enough is enough, it's time to suspect this thing.

here are my points:

1. Machoke is broken. Machoke is one of the most ridiculous pokemon to face as it 1v1s pretty much every pokemon that is not a fighting resist. Due to its immense bulk with Eviolite and possible defensive investment, many offensive pokemon struggle to 2HKO or even 3HKO this thing. However it nearly always 2HKOs offensive pokemon back with Dynamic Punch or Knock Off- add to this a potential 50% chance Dynamic Punch full confusion, and Machoke can rest up and simply forget it got damaged at all. Simply by bringing it in vs an offensive pokemon can cause them to sack it to get damage off on Machoke- this is pretty much the definition of broken. In fact, it is not uncommon to see people Machoke taking out two or three pokemon, as they struggle to break through this thing, leaving the rest of their teams easy picking. It has just way too good of a matchup vs a majority of PU to be balanced in this tier.
2. Machoke has few counters. Gourgeist-Super is the only true switch-in to Machoke. That's it. There's just one ghost type who can reliably switch it in and stall it out- and guess what- it doesn't fit on offensive teams or even offensive-leaning balance, and it provides . You might say "Well there are some fighting resists." That's certainly true- Swanna, Jumpluff, Grumpig, Mime, defensive Mawile, Arbok can all switch in on Dynamic Punch reasonably, and will most likely beat Machoke in a 1v1 situation. However here's the problem- Dynamic Punch confusion gives them the incredible 50% chance to lose total momentum for their team. If the foe's Arbok hits itself in confusion, you can switch to the Arbok check, Golem, without losing any momentum or having Sturdy broken or anything. Machoke is able to reward the user 50% of time with free switches simply by using Machoke. Finally, although I'm focusing mainly on the most broken of sets, defensive Rest-Talk, half the pokemon on this list get lured by Offensive Machoke sets. T-punch lures Swanna, Ice Punch lures Jumpluff, Earthquake lures Arbok, etc. And it can fit 2 of these moves on the same set! There really isn't any reliable way to deal with Machoke and not get into a possible 50% loss of all momentum without using Gourgeist-Super, and it's awful.
3. Machoke is overcentralizing. Machoke is the single scariest threat I have to prepare for when teambuilding. This alone does not mean it should be banned, but it is the sheer extent at which it warps teambuilding. You may say stuff like Rotom-F and Floatzel are similar, but the situation is entirely different. You can have some pokemon weak vs Floatzel or Rotom-F on your team, but they will never threaten to 1v1 your entire team if that one pokemon dies. All you really need are one check/counter to them, and then multiple pokemon that can at least try to get some damage on it or revenge killing. Machoke is different- simply having one fighting resist isn't enough- what if that gets confused, and then just dies? Machoke proceeds to 1v1 huge or at least large portions of your team. I've found that in order to not have a large disadvantage against Machoke you need to pack multiple fighting resists/immunities on your team (which is a lot considering how few reliable fighting resists PU has. PU is not NU). It's really made me paranoid when building especially when building without Gourgeist-Super. Simply relying on offensive pressure is not enough, because it has happened so many times as you try to Knock Off Machoke or wear it down to defeatable range, you get confused and actually accomplish very little. Dynamic Punch is such a massive massive copout that makes offensive pressure, or even offensive pressure + 1 fighting resist, a very unsatisfactory way to deal with Machoke. Coupled with all the offensive threats you already want to deal with, Machoke just makes teambuilding in PU a lot harder and a lot les fun, when you have to insert your obligatory fighting resist to not get destroyed.

4. Machoke makes the tier less fun. Let's be honest. Nobody likes playing against confusion. No one likes being forced to take a Dynamic Punch and getting super nervous just hoping you won't hit yourself because then you'll lose the match. Yeah I know, we can't ban confusion- it's part of pokemon, and we can't ban Dynamic Punch either. But we can ban one of the single best and most popular pokemon in the tier, who with its sheer bulk is able to confuse literally every pokemon on a team. Machoke's Dynamic Punch makes the game less skillful and literally turns the game into a bunch of 50-50s. If we don't want to reward people winning matches by coinflips time after time again, then we should make a move to get this pokemon out of the tier.

Here are some sample calcs for those who don't play much PU, using Machoke's defensive rest-talk spread, just to show the insane bulk it really has:
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 107-126 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 176-210 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO

I'll add replays later when I have more time.

so yeah, let's kick this cancerous shit out of PU :)
Unfortunately, yes, it is. If anyone remembers the old guts wallbreaker set, it is honestly impossible to switch into. Game after game I find myself leading with it, getting a kill, and switching out to do the same later. It has boosted the viability of Psychic types like Mr. Mime and Grumpig by an immense amount, as they can check it.

One thing mom didn't mention a whole lot, though, is how goddamn bulky it is. It literally doubles as arguably the best wallbreaker, pivot, and stallbreaker in the metagame, all in literally one set. Also, its versatility is nigh unmatched, being able to run multiple sets, fro mthe likes of guts attacker to defensive pivot to resttalk d-punch. It is definitely worth evaluating a Machoke-less metagame and how it would change the meta, given how absurd its capabilities all around are.

Also, pertaining to Fire-types:

Simisear @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Low Kick
- Knock Off

Does anyone else not realize how goddamn deadly this set is in the current meta? It shreds common cores and popular mons like Metang with ease, and has literally 0 safe switchins. Not to mention the sheer horror of Blaze-boosted Fire Blast:

252 SpA Life Orb Blaze Simisear Fire Blast vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Grumpig: 133-157 (39 - 46%) -- 20.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Blaze Simisear Fire Blast vs. 160 HP / 28 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 278-329 (81.5 - 96.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Blaze Simisear Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Simipour: 209-247 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Combined with its excellent speed, this allows it to perform well versus any given playstyle, gifting it immense versatility and further enhancing its breaking prowess.
 
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ShuckleDeath

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Pros and Cons of Machoke

Machoke is really starting to insert it's self as one of the best Pokemon in the tier. it has very few reliable switch-ins, excellent bulk, and a great typing to boot. It's combination ability to not only wallbreak but to also check many threats of the metagame I feel is unmatched in the tier. With several viable movesets, back by two amazing ability's, it is just a terror to reckon with. I wanted to start of conversation about this debatable broken Pokemon and the pros and cons of having it in our tier.

Pros
Offensive Capability

Machoke at first glance may not look as though it would be not as big of a wallbreaking powerhouse that it is. 100 base speed accompanied by it 45 base speed may seem usable at best, but with it's excellent and now-a-days rare fighting typing paired with it's perfectly suited STAB options and ability's it is by far one of the most threatening attackers in PU.

Some common switch-ins to Machoke, things like, Stunfisk, Vullaby, Tangela, Quilladin, Grumpig, Swanna and Altaria ether lack reliable recovery to heal off the chip damage, can be crippled heavily by getting there Eviolite knocked off or take massive damage from coverage options Machoke has at it's disposal. Even Pokemon like Gourgeist can come out battered after a 1v1 match-up versus a well played Machoke. These quality's make Machoke a stable on balance and offensive teams alike giving variation to the cleaning options of the tier.


Checking Capability

Another amazing attribute of Machoke is it's ability to check almost every offensive Pokemon in the tier. Ninjask, Zebstrika, Relicanth, Floatzel(and other similar water types), Monferno, Stoutland, Bouffalant, Pawniard, Leafeon, Regice, Simisear, Rotom-F, the list can go on and on. With very few Pokemon being able to threaten Machoke with an outright OHKO(usually a boosting item super effective STAB) are typically predictable making having the switch-in or sack at the ready.

These are all very positive things Machoke can bring to most of the team archetypes PU can boast as as it's most effective. it is hands down in my opinion both supporting and breaking for any team deciding to put it on there short roster of 6.


Cons
All of the things I just addressed are only taking into account it's standard 160 HP 44 Speed set. Machoke is much more versatile than that. With it's other amazing set's such as offensive ResTalk, defensive ResTalk(248 HP, 120 Def, 140 SpDef, Impish) Machoke can be tailored made to break or wall depending on the needs of the team.

Lack of reliable Switch-ins

While it is great to have a Mon wallbreak well versus most playstyles, some may argue Machoke does it a bit to well. Very few top rank Mons hate trying to check Machoke, as they often times times get weakened to the point of no return, this alows other Mons to clean much easier making a few Mons more threatening than they need to be.

Team Building Restrictions

Machoke is one of the hardest Pokemon to account for while team building. it's best counter, Gourgeist-XL, has been shot up in usage as it one of if not thee only higher ranked Mon's that can switch in and beat it with most of it's set's. Defensive Swanna is aruguably it's second greatest check but after considering rocls damage +Knock Off Swanna often finds it's self having to chose rather to attack if they predict them to stay in or Roost if they predict the switch i feel between these mind games Swanna often struggles in checking Machoke repeatedly. Grumpig now is often used to check Machoke as well which i feel is troublesome for it as now it is excepted to check Rotom-, Monferno, Regice, Mr.Mime and several other threats, this can become too much for Grumpig. This often times leave teams needing several checks to Machoke. I feel this can make team building rather difficult to newer players.

Otherwise Non Viable Mons getting ranked.(Dustox recently dropped back down to E)

Some teams have even resorted to running things like Dustox, Slowpoke and Swalot which i feel is overall unhealthy for the metagame. Considering these Pokemon often times are used solely for Machoke, While these Mons may be able to beat Machoke 1v1 they often teams just loop teams in bad match-ups as the can not reliably beat other higher ranked Pokemon with out a huge amount of support, also making team building around these rather hard for new players.

Dynamic Punch Confusions

This is the thing I hear the most complaints on. A 100 base power STAB, with 100% accuracy thanks to No guard with a 100% confuse rate. This in many people's opinion push Machoke over the edge making for an incredibly hard move to switch into while sometimes with luck allowing Machoke to break past the few checks it has. No reason to go in to too much detail here we all know how good it is.

Final Thoughts
I feel Machoke is really strong for the tier and i also feel it has a few more Cons than Pros. Than again Machoke is also the best glue we have. Checking many threats in the tier and holding a lot of teams together.
I'm not sure if losing Machoke would be the best thing we can do as while it certainly is one of the hardest Mons to prepare for, i feel it often times help balance out a few playstyles as it can work well against and on most team archetypes, That being said i know people have been bringing a Machoke suspect up for quite a while and it may be nice just to get a lot of weigh in on this Mon, so I will say I support a suspect test.







 
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I'm not going to say too much, but i think people are overlooking the cons of machoke a little bit.
I think personally, the addition of mawile into the tier, especially the offensive set really takes advantage of the bulky machoke set and really forces a lot of pressure on the user. So if there were to be a machoke suspect test, i'd like to wait until mawile settles a little more, because as well all know, the tier can go through a lot of trends from time to time.

Secondly, the other thing i'd like to point out is that it heavily relies on its evio for any bulk with the rest-talk set, as without it, it cannot check anything really :L So i think that people are overselling this a little bit, but i can see the want for a machoke suspect. Nevertheless, this is the main difference i feel between machoke's rest-talk set and lets say throh's set. Throh started with reliable recovery and didn't lose bulk if it got hit by a knock off, whereas machoke has the need for its evio quite heavily and doesn't have the passive recovery.

tl;dr still wait for mawile to settle before a suspect, machoke needs evio to be bulky
 
Gonna post a few thoughts of my own. Machoke overall is actually healthy for the tier, and that might sound wierd, but let me explain. Machoke takes a lot of ease off of teambuilding, giving you things like a Golem check, Pawniard check, and a status absorber. It also has some solid wallbreaking capabilities, while still being checked / countered by Pokemon such as Gourgeist-XL, Swalot, and Swanna. However, the problem lies in Dynamic Punch along with No Guard, which in essence is uncompetitive and honestly dumb as shit, forcing a ton of 50 / 50s while being very uncompetitive. Now, policy currently states that we can't do a complex ban as such, but if we can talk with Policy Review and convince them to compromise and allow this, then I'd be all for it.
Unfortunately, yes, it is. If anyone remembers the old guts wallbreaker set, it is honestly impossible to switch into. Game after game I find myself leading with it, getting a kill, and switching out to do the same later. It has boosted the viability of Psychic types like Mr. Mime and Grumpig by an immense amount, as they can check it.

One thing mom didn't mention a whole lot, though, is how goddamn bulky it is. It literally doubles as arguably the best wallbreaker, pivot, and stallbreaker in the metagame, all in literally one set. Also, its versatility is nigh unmatched, being able to run multiple sets, fro mthe likes of guts attacker to defensive pivot to resttalk d-punch. It is definitely worth evaluating a Machoke-less metagame and how it would change the meta, given how absurd its capabilities all around are.

Also, pertaining to Fire-types:

Simisear @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Low Kick
- Knock Off

Does anyone else not realize how goddamn deadly this set is in the current meta? It shreds common cores and popular mons like Metang with ease, and has literally 0 safe switchins. Not to mention the sheer horror of Blaze-boosted Fire Blast:

252 SpA Life Orb Blaze Simisear Fire Blast vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Grumpig: 133-157 (39 - 46%) -- 20.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Blaze Simisear Fire Blast vs. 160 HP / 28 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 278-329 (81.5 - 96.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Blaze Simisear Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Simipour: 209-247 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Combined with its excellent speed, this allows it to perform well versus any given playstyle, gifting it immense versatility and further enhancing its breaking prowess.
I also just want to point out that you're overestimating the shit out of Machoke and even Simisear. You may have just worded this miscorrectly, but saying Guts Machoke and Life Orb Simisear are impossible to switch into is just wrong. Any AoA Machoke set is completely countered by Gourgeist-XL and checked by things like Swalot and Swanna, depending on coverage moves. Same goes for Simisear, as things like Stunfisk and defensive Swanna have no trouble switching in, so I'd suggest either rewording this or going more in-depth with your research.
 

ShuckleDeath

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I'm not going to say too much, but i think people are overlooking the cons of machoke a little bit.
I think personally, the addition of mawile into the tier, especially the offensive set really takes advantage of the bulky machoke set and really forces a lot of pressure on the user. So if there were to be a machoke suspect test, i'd like to wait until mawile settles a little more, because as well all know, the tier can go through a lot of trends from time to time.

Secondly, the other thing i'd like to point out is that it heavily relies on its evio for any bulk with the rest-talk set, as without it, it cannot check anything really :L So i think that people are overselling this a little bit, but i can see the want for a machoke suspect. Nevertheless, this is the main difference i feel between machoke's rest-talk set and lets say throh's set. Throh started with reliable recovery and didn't lose bulk if it got hit by a knock off, whereas machoke has the need for its evio quite heavily and doesn't have the passive recovery.

tl;dr still wait for mawile to settle before a suspect, machoke needs evio to be bulky
I actually feel Mawile doesn't Machoke as well as we first thought. It's offensive set of coarse threatens Machoke but not any more than say Specs Mr.Mime or LO Swanna. with the pivot set it is still taking ~25 % from offenisve Machoke's dynamic Punch, and on top of theis it even struggles to pivot afterward as the confusion is passed with it
 

5gen

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I was holding this off because I didn't want to create any controversy for PUPL...after seeing the RU suspect test I gained confidence that this is indeed possible.

What's the problem? Machoke.


Machoke is the single most unhealthy, broken, and annoying pokemon to face in the tier. I think almost everyone can agree with me that it is making the metagame less fun and is a huge problem to teambuild and play against. At first offensive pressure was enough to keep this thing down, but ever since the invention of the Defensive Rest-Talk set it just got a lot harder to deal with. I'm sure even some of the newer players who only learned PUPL are also questioning "Why is this mon legal?" Enough is enough, it's time to suspect this thing.

here are my points:

1. Machoke is broken. Machoke is one of the most ridiculous pokemon to face as it 1v1s pretty much every pokemon that is not a fighting resist. Due to its immense bulk with Eviolite and possible defensive investment, many offensive pokemon struggle to 2HKO or even 3HKO this thing. However it nearly always 2HKOs offensive pokemon back with Dynamic Punch or Knock Off- add to this a potential 50% chance Dynamic Punch full confusion, and Machoke can rest up and simply forget it got damaged at all. Simply by bringing it in vs an offensive pokemon can cause them to sack it to get damage off on Machoke- this is pretty much the definition of broken. In fact, it is not uncommon to see people Machoke taking out two or three pokemon, as they struggle to break through this thing, leaving the rest of their teams easy picking. It has just way too good of a matchup vs a majority of PU to be balanced in this tier.
2. Machoke has few counters. Gourgeist-Super is the only true switch-in to Machoke. That's it. There's just one ghost type who can reliably switch it in and stall it out- and guess what- it doesn't fit on offensive teams or even offensive-leaning balance, and it provides . You might say "Well there are some fighting resists." That's certainly true- Swanna, Jumpluff, Grumpig, Mime, defensive Mawile, Arbok can all switch in on Dynamic Punch reasonably, and will most likely beat Machoke in a 1v1 situation. However here's the problem- Dynamic Punch confusion gives them the incredible 50% chance to lose total momentum for their team. If the foe's Arbok hits itself in confusion, you can switch to the Arbok check, Golem, without losing any momentum or having Sturdy broken or anything. Machoke is able to reward the user 50% of time with free switches simply by using Machoke. Finally, although I'm focusing mainly on the most broken of sets, defensive Rest-Talk, half the pokemon on this list get lured by Offensive Machoke sets. T-punch lures Swanna, Ice Punch lures Jumpluff, Earthquake lures Arbok, etc. And it can fit 2 of these moves on the same set! There really isn't any reliable way to deal with Machoke and not get into a possible 50% loss of all momentum without using Gourgeist-Super, and it's awful.
3. Machoke is overcentralizing. Machoke is the single scariest threat I have to prepare for when teambuilding. This alone does not mean it should be banned, but it is the sheer extent at which it warps teambuilding. You may say stuff like Rotom-F and Floatzel are similar, but the situation is entirely different. You can have some pokemon weak vs Floatzel or Rotom-F on your team, but they will never threaten to 1v1 your entire team if that one pokemon dies. All you really need are one check/counter to them, and then multiple pokemon that can at least try to get some damage on it or revenge killing. Machoke is different- simply having one fighting resist isn't enough- what if that gets confused, and then just dies? Machoke proceeds to 1v1 huge or at least large portions of your team. I've found that in order to not have a large disadvantage against Machoke you need to pack multiple fighting resists/immunities on your team (which is a lot considering how few reliable fighting resists PU has. PU is not NU). It's really made me paranoid when building especially when building without Gourgeist-Super. Simply relying on offensive pressure is not enough, because it has happened so many times as you try to Knock Off Machoke or wear it down to defeatable range, you get confused and actually accomplish very little. Dynamic Punch is such a massive massive copout that makes offensive pressure, or even offensive pressure + 1 fighting resist, a very unsatisfactory way to deal with Machoke. Coupled with all the offensive threats you already want to deal with, Machoke just makes teambuilding in PU a lot harder and a lot les fun, when you have to insert your obligatory fighting resist to not get destroyed.

4. Machoke makes the tier less fun. Let's be honest. Nobody likes playing against confusion. No one likes being forced to take a Dynamic Punch and getting super nervous just hoping you won't hit yourself because then you'll lose the match. Yeah I know, we can't ban confusion- it's part of pokemon, and we can't ban Dynamic Punch either. But we can ban one of the single best and most popular pokemon in the tier, who with its sheer bulk is able to confuse literally every pokemon on a team. Machoke's Dynamic Punch makes the game less skillful and literally turns the game into a bunch of 50-50s. If we don't want to reward people winning matches by coinflips time after time again, then we should make a move to get this pokemon out of the tier.

Here are some sample calcs for those who don't play much PU, using Machoke's defensive rest-talk spread, just to show the insane bulk it really has:
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 115-136 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Machoke: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 107-126 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 176-210 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO

I'll add replays later when I have more time.

so yeah, let's kick this cancerous shit out of PU :)
Yeah I agree Machoke is annoying to face due to it's sheer bulk and D-Punch spam. As MoM stated, Choke is over-centralizing, so I'll be talking about how it's molded offense in PU. For offensive teams, Machoke can be a pain to face whether you're prepared or not. This is because Machoke has the option of going either offensive or defensive, Guts or No Guard.

The Guts set is more commonly used as an all out attacker since status gives it a 1.5 x attack boost. This set typically runs CC/Knock Off/Bullet Punch/Ice Punch and is very difficult to switch into. So much so that you're basically forced to run Gourg, Defensive Swanna, Swalot, Dustox or Defensive Mawile (now) if you want a reliable switch in. Offensive teams have become bulkier as a result, trying to run good Choke checks such as Colbur Grumpig or Def Swanna. Heck, even on HO teams you're forced to run at least two checks and keep momentum up through switches/sacking so you can hit it hard. Guts Machoke can also run different sets such as BU, slightly different moves like EQ or T-Punch and fast Sub BU which can beat Gourg-Super. So what offense has resorted to is running bulky or niche mons like the ones mentioned previously or two reliable checks such as CB Dodrio, LO Mawile, Kadabra or Mime.

Here is the more problematic of the two: No Guard Machoke. Let's face it, the only reason this set is even relevant is because of D-Punch, which is super annoying with 100% confusion. Like MoM stated, D-Punch gives you free turns, makes usual checks/counter have a 50% chance to do anything and allows the Machoke user to switch out into a more favorable mon. This set can go AoA with Dynamic Punch as your STAB followed by coverage. This particular set is a pain to face when using offense because again you're forced to run bulky stuff to check it or multiple frail check and sack stuff so you can revenge it. The more recent set is Rest Talk. This set is so bulky it's funny. Now Machoke is able to 1v1 the majority of the tier because 1) it Knocks Off your item then 2) Proceeds to D-Punch spam and 3) Heals itself back to full. So it's like what are you gonna do you? Well, your best bet is to run powerful mons that are able to dent it like Mawile, Swanna, Mime, Cuno etc. Honestly the sheer bulk of Rest Talk Choke is a pain to deal with on HO teams and Offense in general.

As player that mainly uses HO/Offense teams I can say Machoke can be annoying to face, but when you run those mons that already fit on offense and can dent it such as Dodrio, Mawile, Mime, Kadabra, Swanna, and others, the matchup becomes much easier. Not to mention Knocking Off it's Eviolite helps a ton. Another note I'd like to add is the addition of Mawile to the tier and how it affects the Choke situation. First off, we got a much needed Choke switch in and check, which can severely damage any Choke with LO Sheer Force Play Rough. Secondly, some people think Maw is actually more difficult to switch in, and they're right. However, Mawile is also way easier to check imo because of it's poor bulk and reliance on Sucker Punch vs faster mons.

All in all I support a Machoke suspect just to see whether not having Machoke would actually benefit PU as it finds it's way on many teams and is able to check a whole lot. Yeah we can keep playing in this Choke dominant meta but I feel people are just sick of facing it.
 
Gonna post a few thoughts of my own. Machoke overall is actually healthy for the tier, and that might sound wierd, but let me explain. Machoke takes a lot of ease off of teambuilding, giving you things like a Golem check, Pawniard check, and a status absorber. It also has some solid wallbreaking capabilities, while still being checked / countered by Pokemon such as Gourgeist-XL, Swalot, and Swanna. However, the problem lies in Dynamic Punch along with No Guard, which in essence is uncompetitive and honestly dumb as shit, forcing a ton of 50 / 50s while being very uncompetitive. Now, policy currently states that we can't do a complex ban as such, but if we can talk with Policy Review and convince them to compromise and allow this, then I'd be all for it.

I also just want to point out that you're overestimating the shit out of Machoke and even Simisear. You may have just worded this miscorrectly, but saying Guts Machoke and Life Orb Simisear are impossible to switch into is just wrong. Any AoA Machoke set is completely countered by Gourgeist-XL and checked by things like Swalot and Swanna, depending on coverage moves. Same goes for Simisear, as things like Stunfisk and defensive Swanna have no trouble switching in, so I'd suggest either rewording this or going more in-depth with your research.
I'm aware that Simisear is not an A+ -rank mon, and I understand that; I pointed out Simisear because I feel players are underestimating its breaking capabilities in the current meta. I've used Simisear a lot, and while not flawless, it gets the job done very well, and I feel it deserves more recognition. That they're "impossible to switch into" was a hyperbole.

Also, calcs versus Swanna and Stunfisk (speed on swanna to outpseed adamant ferno):

252 SpA Life Orb Simisear Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stunfisk: 140-165 (33.1 - 39%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Simisear Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stunfisk: 195-230 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Simisear Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Swanna: 140-165 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Simisear Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 136+ SpD Swanna: 105-125 (29.7 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

As for Machoke, I think evaluating and looking at whether or not the meta would be better or worse without it would be beneficial; I'm not pro-ban, I have no opinion, as I actually haven't considered it yet. This is why I support a suspect test, because given how Machoke became one of the best 'mons in the meta relatively quickly from its previous already fantastic stature, I'm pretty sure a lot of people haven't considered a suspect.
 

Serene Grace

Live for the applause
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So I just wanted to clear up some stuff regarding complex bans and banning only Dynamic Punch, or banning only Dynamic Punch on Machoke etc. A lot of people seem confused so I'm going to try and clear it up. I am aware that a Machoke suspect is not close to being a thing and is just being suggested, so everything I'm saying is from a hypothetical standpoint with the assumption that Machoke is indeed broken.

First of all, Smogon wants to avoid complex bans as much as possible. Its just silly when you see stuff like "X is banned in combination with Y as long as the user holds an Absorb Bulb while dancing on one leg and holding apple pie." Complex bans make stuff unnecessarily confusing and should be avoided at all costs because its just dumb to have complicated stuff when there's no need. Baton pass was an exception because there was literally no simple way to stop it from being broken so an exception was made.
So on to the machoke related stuff.

Why not ban just Dynamic Punch in general, its clear that's what makes Machoke so broken right?

Banning Dynamic Punch in general implies that Dynamic Punch as a move is broken in general in the PU tier. This implies that stuff like Golett and Machop are broken too because of their access to dpunch as well (yes they're shit, that's the point). Clearly those two as well as other Dynamic Punchers are not broken. It is evident that Dynamic punch is only broken in combination with Machoke. If that is the case there is no need of banning a whole move just because one pokemon can abuse it well. My point is that in conjunction with the move dynamic punch you need to have the stats to actually abuse it. That is a function of the pokemon, and not the move.


Well then why not just ban Machoke+Dynamic Punch, Machoke is the only Dynamic Punch abuser in the tier right?

Banning combinations of moves and Pokemon, along with being unnecessarily complex, leads down a slippery slope.
Why not unban Linoone but only ban Belly Drum on it?
Why not just ban King's Shield on Aegislash?
Why not just ban Protean on Greninja?
Why not just ban speed boost on Blaziken?
Why not just ban Hurricane on Mega-Pidgeot?

The list goes on and on. Banning a combination of moves will just leave you with a diluted and dilapidated pool of mons which have lost its main niche with the pretense of "balancing only what was necessary." Frankly, its just silly.


Well what about Chatot, wasn't banning chatter a complex ban?

Banning chatter implied that chatter was a broken move and the Chatot was not. It implied that every single pokemon that got chatter in PU was broken as a result of having Chatter. It implied that every single pokemon that had chatter would not be broken if it didn't have chatter. Considering that Chatot is the only pokemon with access to chatter (nope not even Smeargle) I would say that Chatot's broken factor was a function of the move Chatter, not Chatot by itself. The key is that Chatter only applies to one pokemon. Again, this brings me back to the first question, Dynamic Punch is different from chatot because Dynamicpunch is distributed to more pokemon and it is evident that every single pokemon with dynamic punch is not broken (implies it is dependent on the pokemon in question, while it is evident that every single pokemon with Chatter was broken in PU (function of the move, not the pokemon) Banning chatter only affected one pokemon, which still has great viability even with the ban of chatter.

To conclude, if a machoke suspect where to ever happen (yes i know there are no plans for it as of now) it would have to be a suspect of Machoke itself, not dynamic punch or anything else along those lines.
Only the pokemon itself can be banned.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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So I just wanted to clear up some stuff regarding complex bans and banning only Dynamic Punch, or banning only Dynamic Punch on Machoke etc. A lot of people seem confused so I'm going to try and clear it up. I am aware that a Machoke suspect is not close to being a thing and is just being suggested, so everything I'm saying is from a hypothetical standpoint with the assumption that Machoke is indeed broken.

First of all, Smogon wants to avoid complex bans as much as possible. Its just silly when you see stuff like "X is banned in combination with Y as long as the user holds an Absorb Bulb while dancing on one leg and holding apple pie." Complex bans make stuff unnecessarily confusing and should be avoided at all costs because its just dumb to have complicated stuff when there's no need. Baton pass was an exception because there was literally no simple way to stop it from being broken so an exception was made.
So on to the machoke related stuff.

Why not ban just Dynamic Punch in general, its clear that's what makes Machoke so broken right?

Banning Dynamic Punch in general implies that Dynamic Punch as a move is broken in general in the PU tier. This implies that stuff like Golett and Machop are broken too because of their access to dpunch as well (yes they're shit, that's the point). Clearly those two as well as other Dynamic Punchers are not broken. It is evident that Dynamic punch is only broken in combination with Machoke. If that is the case there is no need of banning a whole move just because one pokemon can abuse it well. My point is that in conjunction with the move dynamic punch you need to have the stats to actually abuse it. That is a function of the pokemon, and not the move.


Well then why not just ban Machoke+Dynamic Punch, Machoke is the only Dynamic Punch abuser in the tier right?

Banning combinations of moves and Pokemon, along with being unnecessarily complex, leads down a slippery slope.
Why not unban Linoone but only ban Belly Drum on it?
Why not just ban King's Shield on Aegislash?
Why not just ban Protean on Greninja?
Why not just ban speed boost on Blaziken?
Why not just ban Hurricane on Mega-Pidgeot?

The list goes on and on. Banning a combination of moves will just leave you with a diluted and dilapidated pool of mons which have lost its main niche with the pretense of "balancing only what was necessary." Frankly, its just silly.


Well what about Chatot, wasn't banning chatter a complex ban?

Banning chatter implied that chatter was a broken move and the Chatot was not. It implied that every single pokemon that got chatter in PU was broken as a result of having Chatter. It implied that every single pokemon that had chatter would not be broken if it didn't have chatter. Considering that Chatot is the only pokemon with access to chatter (nope not even Smeargle) I would say that Chatot's broken factor was a function of the move Chatter, not Chatot by itself. The key is that Chatter only applies to one pokemon. Again, this brings me back to the first question, Dynamic Punch is different from chatot because Dynamicpunch is distributed to more pokemon and it is evident that every single pokemon with dynamic punch is not broken (implies it is dependent on the pokemon in question, while it is evident that every single pokemon with Chatter was broken in PU (function of the move, not the pokemon) Banning chatter only affected one pokemon, which still has great viability even with the ban of chatter.

To conclude, if a machoke suspect where to ever happen (yes i know there are no plans for it as of now) it would have to be a suspect of Machoke itself, not dynamic punch or anything else along those lines.
Only the pokemon itself can be banned.
This post isn't really wrong about anything but it kind of misses the point. Machoke is a totally unique case and there's no cause to be worried of a slippery slope here since there's clearly nothing like it and probably won't be unless gen 7 puts out something totally ridiculous, which we can deal with then. Additionally, it's based on the Smogon banning philosophy that we want to avoid complex bans. Yes, we absolutely do. However, it's also a fact that PU players don't want to deal with confusion bullshit. Yet Machoke is healthy for the tier, I agree with Dundies on this. Complex ban is the most ideal option in this case. There's precedent with excadrill in BW I believe where people wanted drill but sand rush was stupid, I don't know much about it so it might be a flawed comparison. But anyway, nothing you said is wrong but it also misses the point that a complex ban would be preferable to losing a good mon or leaving Dpunch in the tier.

I also don't think Mawile has that huge of an impact on how bad confusion is, it's still stupid with or without it. That's just another check to this mon which can get confused. It hurts Machoke as a whole but not Dpunch, which is really the only thing broken about it. Like people have made really long posts about pros and cons of Machoke but I don't believe anybody's arguing that it's straight up broken on its own, and it isn't. Confusion is just uncompetitive. It has no reason to exist in the meta and has already adversely impacted multiple PUPL games in 1 week. I actually wouldn't have minded a no Dpunch+Machoke rule similarly to NUPL removing weather in dpp or bw idr but since ORAS is like 90% of the tour I guess it's a bit much. Anyway, there's not much a ton of NP posts can do about the actual issue because it's one of policy and not the playerbase hating it because that's already a thing.
 

Anty

let's drop
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Any discussion on banning Dynamic Punch from now will be deleted. This is more of a smogon policy thing than a PU tiering thing, so discussion on it here will not be allowed.

Regarding a Machoke suspect, I think people are way overstating how broken it potentially is. The defensive set I would argue is healthy for the tier, as it gives defensive teams a way to apply offensive pressure, and it doesn't check enough to the point where it is too good as a tank, as it is weak to some of the best wallbreakers in the tier like Mime and Mawile. Additionally, it isn't as hard as people are saying to check, if you stop running slow and passive teams then maybe it wouldn't be as centralising as you think (additionally you can use niche mons like def swalot/beheeyem which aren't even that bad). As it stands, the most convincing argument for a suspect, in my opinion, is its access to 100 acc Dynamic Punch, but I'm not sure if it pushes Machoke 'over the edge' to the point it should be banned or even suspected (not that I don't think dpunch is uncompetitive).
 
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