Metagame np: PU Stage 7 - I hear Hyper Voices in my head

Specs

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first thing that popped in my head

:SS/Drampa:

I would like to start off this post by saying that this suspect should've happened (at the very least) a couple weeks ago, there is no excuse. A majority of our top players have expressed that Drampa is an issue and this suspect just didn't happen. Had a good chat about this on discord with a lot of our SCL starters, builders, and community members. I think the conversation ended positively at least in my mind. I will be working to make our guidelines wrt what qualifies for a suspect more clear, and communication between mine and other council members opinions more clear. All in all I would like to thank everybody who did criticize what was going on in a healthy way. You're all passionate about this tier and I am too, I'll make sure we work together better to make everything the best it can be. With all of that said, lets get into the real reason you're reading this:

With many of the Dragon type breakers gone now in one way or another, Drampa has soared to the top of the PU meta game as a top wall breaker. A combination of high base power STAB moves, incredible coverage options, and a solid defensive typing resisting common types in Water, Fire, Grass, and a handy immunity in Ghost it isn't hard to see why it is such a massive threat. Drampa also punishes the very slow cores we've been seeing quite often. It's able to get in on weaker attacking foes such as Weezing, Jellicent, Ferroseed, Quagsire, and the now more popular Coalossal.

Set diversity have also been a hot topic. CM sets have come up a good amount being able to boost up, abuse Drampas coverage options more because it isn't locked in, and also get past otherwise offensive checks like Whimsicott and Ribombee, while also taking considerably less from special breakers like Charizard, Mesprit and Articuno-Galar. CM in combination with Berserk can be just as powerful in the short term as Choice Specs sets, albeit is generally a bit more awkward to fit on teams. Defog also has some value in the meta, with the good resistances mentioned earlier. This set however isn't even close to problematic and is actually nice to have in the meta.

Drampas' presence in the builder is probably its biggest issue in the tier. The lack of true defensive answers is very concerning. You can prepare as much as you can for Drampa and it still might get 2 kills just from predicting right. Protect spam works well into choiced sets but can fail to account for CM sets. It's not exactly easy to mitigate its breaking power from the building side of things. It is potentially the reason a lot of teams look and play very similar, and could be limiting meta development because of that.

Drampa is not without its flaws. It is extremely slow, making it so while it does have excellent resistances it isn't able to abuse them to the maximum. While it can hard in on slower, weaker opponents, it struggles to hard in on anything faster. This can be mended by say having a volt turn core on your team and only getting it in on slower foes, this still does mean Drampa doesn't have an amazing match up vs a majority of Pokemon on the other side of the field. It can still make a worthwhile trade vs one of them though during a match and potentially get value from its good bulk and amazing attacking power to fire back after eating something. From my personal experience the tier has also gotten faster and more offensively based, so that could be a downside for Drampa.

There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, we will use the normal PU ladder, which will remain open for the duration of the test. A message will pop up at the beginning of ladder games to indicate that the suspect is going on (Kris - thank you!!). Anyone who wishes to participate in this suspect test will use a newly-made alt with a suspect-specific tag to indicate that you are trying to achieve reqs.

The requirements for this suspect test are the following:
  • All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown PU ladder on a new alt with the following format: 'PUDS [enter nickname here]'. For example, I might register the alt 'PUDS pls ban' to ladder with.
  • Do not impersonate other people in your ladder alt (ex. someone other than myself making the account 'PUDS Specs').
  • Do not use any usernames that are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users.
  • Do not use usernames that could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown!; failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect and potential infractions.
  • To qualify for voting, you must obtain a minimum GXE of 80 with a minimum of 35 games played.
A thread will be posted where people can confirm they have achieved the suspect requirements.

The suspect test will last for 14 days, ending on Monday, November 15th at 12am EST.

Please feel free to post below and let us know how you'll be voting and why. Good luck qualifying, everyone!
 
Drampa sits at just a high enough speed and power level that when it comes in on your slower pokemom if will almost definitely kill something. Either by OHKOing what it's in front of, or by 2HKOing the switch in.

It can be quite prediction reliant, but once your switch ins to one of it's stabs are sufficiently worn down (good luck keeping your Fairy, Steel and Ghost all healthy all game!) it blows holes in your team.

It does all of this whilst being just fat enough to not go down as easily as you'd like and having 3 abilities to change how you need to handle it (Cloud Nine breaks Gigalith, Berserk breaks anything that tries to 2HKO it, Sap Sipper gives a ton of switch ins and prevents seeding) that I am voting to ban the absolute shit out of Drampa and never look back.
 

Heracross2.0

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:ss/drampa:

I don't find Drampa to be banworthy. A while back, I did show some concern about how difficult it is to handle in the builder, but this was before SCL and before multiple switchins, such as SpDef Jellicent, Clefairy, and Audino were popularized. Right now, teams are optimally built to not only keep Drampa from getting in for free but also to dissuade it to click both of its STABs via the inclusion of viable Ghost- and Fairy-types, which are already being run for various reasons (Faries are solid switchins to Scrafty, while Ghost-types are rarer but abuse the lack of Ghost resists in the tier that can safely handle a secondary STAB). Between that and how common Protect is on mons like Gigalith and Ferroseed, which Drampa can generally come in on, I find its impact to be effectively stifled. CM sets can take advantage of this, but realistically they bank on the opponent's counterplay solely being to scout with Protect as well as having no offensive counterplay, which can take the form of Gallade, Silvally-Fairy, or even Sneasel. Drampa already has issues running what it wants to on Specs sets (to be specific, it wants HVoice/Draco/Fire move/Focus Miss/Grass move or Surf), but replacing one of those moves with Calm Mind and potentially the inclusion of more moves like Roost or Sub make it more of a matchup fish than a consistent option imo.

People also talk about the impact Drampa has in the builder, but tbh I can't see that big of a difference between it and various other slow, but powerful, breakers like Centiskorch and Perrserker. The two biggest differences I see are its solid uninvested bulk and defensive typing, which allow it to get in against more foes. But as I stated above, due to a shift to defensive mons that can limit Drampa's openings while remaining strong against the majority of the meta, I find this to be less potent than it originally was right after Eggy-A's ban. I don't find myself bending over backward to ensure it gets many openings either. Even stuff it wants to come in on can slowly wear it down via status, hazards, and sand chip (if not Cloud Nine). If anything, instead of it being unhealthy, I find it to be a healthy presence that punishes fat builds while not completely shattering them, as evidenced by the popularity of fat despite Drampa as well as the rise of its switchins. I think there is a reason I can see Drampa being banned that hasn't been talked about that much, and that's the high power level of PU being a negative thing for metagame development, but this is not a stance I agree with and feels like a slightly different argument in its entirety. From what I understand this seems to be an unpopular opinion, so I would love to see more discussion on this from players who want Drampa banned.

tl;dr Drampa is powerful and a top tier threat but not necessarily banworthy (unless the amount of top tier threats is an issue to you)
 
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I think drampa is extremely centralizing as mon
You can argue that the meta have adopted
But is that adaptation good for the tier or not this the real question

Here’s some point I felt needed to be point out from cross and anyone want to know why as someone who would vote ban feels like about drampa

before multiple switchins, such as SpDef Jellicent, Clefairy, and Audino were popularized. Right now, teams are optimally built to not only keep Drampa from getting in for free
Sounds very centralizing mon the put a lot of limitation on team building , speed tiers , running protect on most of your walls and running passive and previously considered as bad mons in pu
Like Audino out of stall builds , and to some degree clef
That being said most of these mon are not even reliable answer
Clef with 2decent rolls can be 2ohko on switch in with hyper voice
Jelli can’t take 2 energy ball and I’m positive won’t take 2 grass knot either ,and the only way of touching it back is toxic
Audino soul purpose to pivot and see what it locked itself into and pivot back out
Not to mention focus blast is a roll to 1ohko after rocks or any prior damage
Also Hyper voice all what you need sometimes it have like 90% chance 2ohko and you regen less than what you take
Not to mention NG weezing can really mess you up if you combined that with drampa (against Audino match ups)
)If anything, instead of it being unhealthy, I find it to be a healthy presence that punishes fat builds while not completely shattering them
Drampa have hard time against stall
As someone who spammed stall last 2 months I never worried about drampa
I remember once I had run from 1390 to 1600 flawless run using nothing but stall I didn’t struggle with drampa , granted ladder are not on it best shape unfortunately but steal found many decent players in my run .

Stall naturally run protect and almost every good stall have sp def articuno on it and between articuno and Audino you just stall it out or scout with protect to force it out and pressure it with hazard
this the approach some balance builds start to take
And that screams unhealthy meta

there’s a reason why you see Audino and some of stall cores on balance cause it handle drampa better

going back to the point I highlighted from the first quote that’s the exact reason why I think drampa should leave

unfortunately this gen with the massive mon cut
Left lower tiers in worst shape than what it supposed to be against strong dragon types with good coverage and banning hail to use some of the offensive core we had last gen like auroras and alo slash didn’t help either
 

Aberforth

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I ran into either 3 or 4 Drampa on the ladder while going for reqs, and really do not feel like I got an accurate picture of its place in the metagame as a result. From the few games I played around it, it was immensely difficult to switch in to, despite the team I was using having an immunity to both STAB moves as well as a spdef Audino. But in going for reqs here, I definitely found Charizard and Tsareena much harder to deal with both offensively and defensively and would ladder to vote for them to go if another suspect is held soon. I'll be taking a look at the replays from this shift in SCL as well as the upcoming SCL games and any major tour games I see, and probably basing my vote off of them.

This was a fun ladder tho, not nearly as inactive as I feared it would be, and Ribombee is goated, carried loads of games by itself.
 

Heracross2.0

And I was the MVP. You were all thinking it!
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:ss/gallade:

Okay, this may seem like a really random post, but recently I have been alerted to how extremely busted Gallade is right now. Between a solid STAB combination, priority, and a 4th moveslot that can consist of either coverage like Leaf Blade/Thunder Punch/Knock Off, or a boosting move like Swords Dance, Gallade effectively has no short-term defensive counterplay if it predicts correctly. The Muscle Band set that tlenit used here is the one I've been using lately (albeit Leaf Blade over Thunder Punch to immediately nuke Quagsire without having to rely on a 69% chance with CC), and both using it and playing against it, it has been exceptionally hard to deal with on both sides of the spectrum. On the defensive side, it hits a disturbing number of 2HKOs with Rocks up, and the only switch-ins to me look like itemless Ghost-types that can bulk to live two of whatever after Rocks (so Gourgeist-XL and Cofagrigus, two uncommon picks right now). Offensively, while mons like Zard and Whimsicott do force it out, the threat of SS killing them around 25/50 depending on the set forces them to play more conservatively, and I don't currently feel that there is enough offensive counterplay that can stifle that. There is the argument of it being hard to fit on teams, which I do understand; however, I am not fully convinced that this is enough to limit its usefulness. Would appreciate more discussion on Gallade because I don't see it being talked about often, but personally, I would 100% support a further look at Gallade around 2 weeks after the Drampa suspect has ended.
 
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Specs

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:ss/gallade:

Okay, this may seem like a really random post, but recently I have been alerted to how extremely busted Gallade is right now. Between a solid STAB combination, priority, and a 4th moveslot that can consist of either coverage like Leaf Blade/Thunder Punch/Knock Off, or a boosting move like Swords Dance, Gallade effectively has no short-term defensive counterplay if it predicts correctly. The Muscle Band set that tlenit used here is the one I've been using lately (albeit Leaf Blade over Thunder Punch to immediately nuke Quagsire without having to rely on a 69% chance with CC), and both using it and playing against it, it has been exceptionally hard to deal with on both sides of the spectrum. On the defensive side, it hits a disturbing number of 2HKOs with Rocks up, and the only switch-ins to me look like itemless Ghost-types that can bulk to live two of whatever after Rocks (so Gourgeist-XL and Cofagrigus, two uncommon picks right now). Offensively, while mons like Zard and Whimsicott do force it out, the threat of SS killing them around 25/50 depending on the set forces them to play more conservatively, and I don't currently feel that there is enough offensive counterplay that can stifle that. There is the argument of it being hard to fit on teams, which I do understand; however, I am not fully convinced that this is enough to limit its usefulness. Would appreciate more discussion on Gallade because I don't see it being talked about often, but personally, I would 100% support a further look at Gallade around 2 weeks after the Drampa suspect has ended.
Honestly a fair concern. I've said in the discord a little bit ago that I think Gallade has hits its peak, and that it would slowly go down in usage (potentially post Drampa, since it abuses Drampa being in so well.) But yeah good shout, I'm going to be keeping an eye out for Gallade in WC.

Anyways heres a half council minutes with some questions at the end for everyone: We'll be keeping an extremely close eye on Tsareena. We would like to see how things play out for a bit, but discussion surrounding its presence in the meta game was already going on pre Drampa suspect, and during it as well. Extremely deadly mon that finds its way on teams very easily, has a ton of utility. It also has very few true switch ins, and those true switch ins get crippled a lot by Knock. It's on our radar hard

Questions as promised:

1. How do you feel about the meta game now that Drampa is gone? Better? Worse? Is it the same?

2. What do you think of Tsareena's place in the tier? Do you find it to be managable? Are switch ins too limited?

3. Are there other problematic mons you would prefer to be seen dealt with first? Gallade? Charizard? Scrafty?
 
i have no stake at this point since i'm unlikely to ever play this tier again, but i think banning tsareena would be a huge mistake. unlike (specs) drampa, there are several more secure defensive answers to this pkmn that are actually quite viable outside of checking it. the best example is weezing, who gets a buff w no drampa around and honestly has a very diverse and strong toolkit while being a top pkmn in the tier. its applications are far beyond limited to just checking tsar. there are several ways u can tech your builds to answer tsareena without having to massively bend your back to deal with it.

that said, i agree that the mon is overwhelming and can validly be considered too much for the tier. but i think it would be very problematic to get rid of this mon when you consider how hazards work in this tier. pu is ripe with a ton of very good knock off users and hazard setters that are top tier threats. without tsareena, i believe that hazards will be extremely overwhelming, whether that be gigalith's rocks, ferroseed's spikes, or whatever else. lower tiers have consistently had issues with hazard removal options being super limited while having very solid hazard setters + maintainers, and tsareena is a pkmn that really evens that playing field and enables a diverse number of viable strategies. i think charizard, ferroseed, coil sandaconda, scrafty, and maybe even qd + aroma ribombee are similarly overwhelming in the teambuilder and ingame. i think all of these mons balance each other out and are examples of (relatively) healthy centralization. tsareena is a pkmn that encourages creativity in the builder and rewards those who are more knowledgeable about the tier, while also rewarding long term strategy and solid game planning.

drampa's removal is overall a pretty solid benefit to the tier, but losing defog will make getting rid of tsareena even more consequential. this is fine though because drampa ban means tsareena becomes more manageable. i think gallade is kinda bad. it provides next to nothing defensively and muscle band sets are mu fishes when you consider that some of the most effective team styles thrive on several methods of residual damage that these sets simply don't have the longevity or fire power to back up. i see this pkmn as a choice in the teambuilder to counterteam people running slow teams that cheat on fighting resists, but outside of these matchups ends up underwhelming and difficult to justify on your team.

leave this tier as is and keep an eye on tsareena. in this iteration of the metagame drampa's exit will signifcantly free up teambuilding which should provide a lot more flexibility in answering all the busted pokemon that people are concerned about.
 

Specs

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Arctovish was banned from NU meaning it is no longer usable in PU, while Snow Warning was unbanned from NU meaning it is usable here! All that info can be found here

So what does this mean? Arctovish gone isn't too big, rarely seen. Could be a threat but water resists werent hard to come by to deal with it

The obvious winners here are Abomasnow, Vanilluxe, and Aurorus. + Slush Rushers Sandslash-Alola, and Beartic ig

The setters are solid breakers in their own right. Vanilluxe just hits extremely hard, Aurorus and Abomasnow has solid Dual stab and coverage. All 3 are able to set up Veil too for their hail sweeper teammates.

Sandslash-Alola is probably the thing I'm scared of most (especially with veil). It has solid enough coverage options and with veil has a good amount of set up opportunities. Beartic is obviously something that you can use now, maybe run both + veil and break with them throughout the game?

Hail is potentially very deadly, my very early take is we can probably deal with it. But time and testing will tell, it has been awhile since this playstyle was able to thrive and the tier has changed since then. Happy testing!
 
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Ooh nice been hoping this would happen. My thoughts on the Hail setters ( can’t post sprites on my phone):

Vanilluxe

Best speed, highest SpA, no 4x weaknesses, I think this will be the best purely offensive Hail setter. It can also safely bring in a teammate with Explosion. I think this will be the best A veil setter of the three. Struggles with Steel types though and hates Gigalith with a passion.

Choiced attacker
Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest nature / Timid nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Flash Cannon
- Aurora Veil / Explosion

Choice-less Attacker
Vailluxe @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Nevermeltice
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Taunt
- Aurora Veil


Aurorus

Despite being slower and weaker than Vanilluxe, neutrality to Fire, Normal and Flying resistances and a better movepool give it a niche over the Ice cream. It can also set Stealth Rock and scares out most Defoggers. Overall not as good as SM PU but still has a good niche.

Choice Specs
Aurorus @ Choice Specs
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power

3 Attacks
Aurorus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Blizzard
- Earth Power
- Freeze-Dry
- Stealth Rock / Aurora Veil


Abomasnow

Seems outclassed at first, but has enough to set itself apart when you look deeper. Grass STAB means unlike with the other two Gigalith will be very reluctant to switch in and bring out the Sand. Its abiliy to Attack from the physical side also gives it a niche. It can even be paired up with Gigalith since it resists Fire and Flying while Abomasnow resists Water, Grass and Ground.

Leech + Protect
Abomasnow @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain

Swords Dance
Abomasnow @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
 

Heracross2.0

And I was the MVP. You were all thinking it!
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1. How do you feel about the meta game now that Drampa is gone? Better? Worse? Is it the same?
The only changes I've really felt or seen are a drop in Clefairy and a rise in Regirock, both of these being pretty predictable. Clefairy dropped in usage because its main point of success was being a rocker that switched into Drampa, and now that Drampa is gone, it has fallen to the way. I think it's still useful because of its unique role and the compression it provides (rocker, Knocker, Scrafty switch-in), but as its main role is now gone, it has fallen off. Regirock didn't directly let Drampa in considering Body Press was an OHKO on it, but it also did not like Drampa coming in on a U-turn from, say, Archeops, as it gives Drampa a free turn. Most physically defensive mons like Tangela, Pallossand, and PhyDef Wishiwashi also gave free turns to Drampa; however, these have not risen in usage as much as Regirock has. Its rise can also be attributed to everyone and their mother spamming variants of the balance TJ won SCL finals with. One would expect Audino to drop in usage as well, but sitting at 5th for W1 of PUWC usage wise (with a terrible win rate as well like holy shit you think it would be a bit better), it doesn't seem to be coming off its SCL high anytime soon. Offense or fat haven't really changed in terms of their usage either; the only viable offensive playstyle still seems to be Grassy Terrain (PLEASE use Webs, it's fun), while fat, hazard stacking balances without a Scarfer seem to be dominating a majority of matches, with Tsar + 3 mon defensive core + big boy breaker + filler looking like the most popular teams. Stall is a bit better now, but it doesn't feel like a notable difference imo. I guess you can run that itemless Ghost now to not lose to Gallade?

2. What do you think of Tsareena's place in the tier? Do you find it to be managable? Are switch ins too limited?
I think I've been pretty vocal about how I think Tsar is overrated here and at least one other post I forgot about, and I don't think my overall opinion has changed. My only difference from then and now would be its 4MSS. Synthesis now seems like the best option in the wake of bulkier sets becoming more popular, 1v1ing Ferroseed lacking Toxic, something previously common offensive U-turn/coverage sets couldn't do as comfortably. While I would still hesitate to call it S, it's very clearly established itself as a great spinner with good coverage, and a threat that has to be prepared for, on the level of Pokemon like Aggron. At the same time, I find it quite manageable with a healthy amount of switch-ins as well as offensive counterplay.

3. Are there other problematic mons you would prefer to be seen dealt with first? Gallade? Charizard? Scrafty?
:gallade:

This mon is still super dumb. Despite only having 5 uses so far in SCL, it has a stunning 80% win rate, with the only loss being against a team that looked like it specifically prepared for Gallade from team preview, and the person using Gallade running a Bright Powder set. Drampa's ban not having changed teambuilding much (at least in my experience) means that Gallade STILL goes ham on basically all the defensive cores in this tier. The popularization of bulky Tsar sets means that Adamant Gallade does not have to worry about Jolly Tsareena outspeeding and revenge killing it as much, adding another point in Gallade's favor. It's flexible, powerful, probably banworthy, and I would love to see a suspect test soon (unless things change, IDK maybe every team starts running itemless Cofagrigus + Sneasel).

:audino: :quagsire: :articuno:

This is much farther down my list of concerning things (literally just it and Gallade), but recently I've been worried about the direction stall is taking. I've been using stall semi-consistently for over a year, and I saw it go from a niche and neglected playstyle used to fish for wins to a legitimate option and something that needs to be prepared for when building. Gallade currently has no switch-ins so stall is kinda neutered or has to use a specific Gallade switch-ins so it doesn't get 6-0ed, but if Gallade is banned, it opens the door for stall to be more common and experiment with lesser-seen options like Avalugg, Alcremie, and Galarian Corsola. It's quite possible that even after a possible Gallade ban that stall doesn't meet my expectations, but is the presence of stall particularly healthy in this hypothetical? I'm not entirely sure the answer is yes. This is much lower down on the list because it's a hypothetical based on a ban of a mon that doesn't seem like the #1 priority on council right now, and I'm not sure how a stall ban would work.

:charizard: :scrafty:

Apart from those two, everything else seems quite balanced. Specs mentioned Charizard and Scrafty in the question, but I don't think they're more powerful than they've ever been. Toxic Zard has overtaken Defog as the superior 4th move, but that only meant an increase in clerics and RestTalk Wishiwashi to deal with it. This means Charizard continues to have an underwhelming win rate across SCL and PUWC so far. Scrafty is a mon that makes me think long-term counterplay is ineffective, but I remember that short-term counterplay like wallbreakers and Knock Off hinder it. It's also a Bootsless mon in a tier where Spikes are very good, and constantly coming into stuff like Gigalith can wear it down fast. Like Tsar, they're strong mons at the peak of the meta, but manageable with a solid amount of counterplay.

:haunter: :jellicent:

I wanted to single out these two mons because while I don't think they're banworthy by any metric, they seem deceptively strong against current fat builds. I have simped for Specs Haunter for quite a while now, and while Audino having high usage troubles it, the Sludge Bomb poison chance is extremely annoying for ones not running Heal Bell, and getting Tricked is even worse (although Haunter hates losing the breaking power). It is also very good into those TJ variants I mentioned above, as their Zard switch-ins are usually Regirock and the Fairy switch-ins are PhyDef leaning itemless Togedemaru, both of which take big chunks from Shadow Ball. Specs Jellicent is a bit more matchup fishy in my experience and requires more support, but if you run into a team not running Audino and/or a Water resist (PhyDef Ferroseed excluded), then it claims lives. Nothing wants to switch into a 150 BP Water Spout coming off a Choice Specs boost, and Jellicent's solid defensive typing, bulk, and just enough speed to outrun the common slow, but powerful, breakers like Centiskorch and Perserrker make it quite valuable. I would implore teams to use these two more.

Thanks for reading!
 

Specs

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Absolutely massive changes with this shift, here they are

Tsareena moved from PU to NU
Silvally-Ground moved from ZUBL to NU

Politoed moved from RU to ZU
Espeon moved from NU to PU
Glastrier moved from NU to PU
Ninjask moved from NU to PU

Played a bit in room tours, so take this with a grain of salt obv. Ladder is updated though so I'll be testing more and more later

Tsareena being gone is good and bad. It was a very prominent breaker that you had to account for, it often got the better end of trades and did a lot in one slot of builds. However losing the absolute best hazard control option isn't great. Our options are seemingly limited.

Silvally-Ground picked up steam near the end of its life here, and while it isn't as big of a loss as Tsareena it still was something that the tier appreciated. It was a good wall breaker with an excellent typing. I'll miss it even if I had maybe 2 teams with it

Politoed doesn't really have a place in PU. It can't keep up with the tier stat wise imo and we have better water answers, and water types. But hey try it out if you would like, maybe it secretly has some use!

Espeon puts on a lot of pressure throughout matches, Specs sets do work and CM could prob be toyed around with. I was running Toge and was still generally forced to wish up after harding in. Espeon does struggle to get in though, it doesn't have much natural bulk. Fun mon and seems like we can maybe keep it.

Glastrier had lots of talks pre shift about whether we can handle it or not. In the games I watched teams were more offense oriented, so maybe its true potential hasn't been seen in my eyes. The biggest drawback I would say is, it can't actually hard in too much. It has incredible bulk, but still takes 30-40 from a good amount of things, and the speed cripples its ability to be a long term threat if dealt with properly. Still, there is no denying its threat level. We'll keep a close eye

Ninjask was ran a good amount too. As I said in the post when we unbanned it, it isn't in its heyday anymore. Still, it can create vortexes or get things in that would otherwise struggle to. Glastrier + Ninjask is actually something I'm wanting to mess around with soon. That combo sounds sweet. Nothing about Ninjask seems outright ridiculous, I don't mind this addition to the tier at all

What do you all think?
 
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gum

for the better
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hi, day 1 thoughts!!

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i really love this mon and it seems to be the best drop so far, although i am worried that it'll end up being too much for the tier. choice specs is an insane breaker with an amazing speed tier; outspeeding zard, vallies, and galarcuno while also 2hkoing a huge portion of the tier is kinda dumb, but it's also very prediction reliant and frail, so if it doesn't ohko something it often risks dying. i've been enjoying defensive sets a lot more, as magic bounce is a stupid ability and u beat every common entry hazards setter, which makes tsareena leaving a little less painful. that set has a lot of different options, too! wishtect, wish + morning sun, calm mind, yawn, heal bell, and coverage moves like dgleam and grass knot all allow it to do its job efficiently and ease its mu vs different things

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this mon is kinda odd, it should be broken (and maybe it is idk we'll see x) but the more i face it, the more im inclined to think it might end up being balanced. i think cb is the only set that's really worth using; other sets like subid and sd all have their own shares of problem that make them kinda mu-fishy from the games i've played / seen. however, cb is definitely extremely threatening lol, it has a monstrous attack and the coverage to ohko or 2hko the entire tier, while its extremely solid bulk allows it to trade vs a ton of mons which kinda offsets its awful speed. it's kinda similar to espeon in a way though, as u'll often need to predict correctly to get the most out of glastrier (though ice is a very solid offensive typing). also, rocks are really annoying if u can't manage to keep them off the field, and u also don't get that many opportunities to come in and click buttons vs more prepared teams

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ew. this mon is pretty decent, although from my experience sd will very rarely sweep since it's still somewhat weak at +2 and we have answers everywhere. it's still a very good pivot though, and it can revenge kill a lot. but yeah, i think it's mainly good as a u-turn bot rn, as we have a lot of breakers that really appreciate u-turn support like specs jelli (which is sm better now that tsareena is gone!!), the other 2 drops, and gallade. i think people have been running roost on it to 1v1 iron head u-turn togedemaru, and that seems like a decent option

obviously, everything i've said in this post might change as the meta develops and as people come up with different sets / mons, so yeah!! i like this meta a decent amount, and as sad i am to see tsareena leave, im also kinda happy to it did lol, there's more options to use now (though that came at the prize of having worse removal)

thank u for reading and have a nice day!!
 

Specs

Getting in your own way
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Been using this for a bit, does well against the new stuff (no ground immune sucks but 5 minute build)

Espeon feels a bit overbearing in game, you're almost always on the back foot vs Specs coupled with that speed tier. I do want to see more out of it but we wont have any high level games with it for a bit with PUWC semis being with no drops. I think we'll have some more discussion about Espeon over the next week or so, once people have played more of the new meta and get a better feel for it. I've just had too many of my Toges be forced to wish tect the first sequence, then get tricked the next and be out of commission :psycry:

I'm a fan of what I've seen though, the meta feels fairly fresh and there's room to run more mons. Anything that outruns Espeon has gained viability no doubt. Sneasel is probably the biggest winner, Boots comes in on everything bar Gleam and threatens to KO. Eldegoss has also seen a bit more usage with Tsar gone, shows the lengths we will go to for hazard control.

Thanks for reading, still very early into a new meta so I'm learning as I go and wanted to continue the discussion
 

Vulpix03

is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
Gunna give my early thoughts on the meta right now. Will start with our new editions and then move on to biggest winners and losers of the new tier shifts.

:espeon: Specs sets are pretty demonic. Toge is always forced to wish and protect if it wants to check espeon for more than 1 turn, so the espeon user is always getting momentum off of it. Aggron takes north of 30% from specs psychic and even more from shadow ball, so unless it is supported by wish it is worn down rather quickly. Gigalith is similar to aggron in that it takes over 30 from psychic and 45 from psyshock. Trick is also always looming as an option for espeon to cripple these pokemon as well.
Compared to specs articuno-galar, I think specs espeon is definitely a notch above. Its speed tier gives it more opportunities to fire off hits as it is able to consistently threaten out faster mons like charizard, scyther and galvantula. It also isn't hindered as much by stealth rock, making it harder to pressure via hazards.
To think I haven't even mentioned magic bounce yet! Overall I think non specs set are def not as overwhelming. 3 atks + morning sun is generally more easy to deal with defensively and gives us a new means of hazard control which is nice, although with morning sun's limited PP and espeon's overall frailness it isn't that hard to get hazards up long term. Bold wish + tect does a better job of keeping hazards off and offers wish support.
Overall I think espeon will probably be too much for the meta. A lot of people thought that galarian cuno pre shifts was suspect worthy and espeon in my eyes is even more threatening, so it's hard for me to see the meta adapting enough to it for it to become balanced.

:ninjask: Overall i'm happy that we got this thing. It is honestly underwhelming but adds a new form on speed control to a relatively slow tier. Acrobatics sets are cool but hard to pull off with poor removal in the tier, power herb dig is cool but usually doesn't work, and boots sets are just meh.
Ninjask @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 96 Def / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- U-turn
- Swords Dance
- Toxic
I have been having the most success with this. Toxic is nice for gigalith, regirock, quagsire, etc and you have enough speed for jolteon.

:glastrier: I think the ice horse will be pretty broken once it is used a bit more. Band sets OHKO / 2 hit KO just about everything in the tier and the thing can live a charizard fire blast from full without investment in bulk, lol. I've also experimented with jolly SD sets and I think that it has merit as well. Overall this is a monster of a pokemon that is only really held back by its speed tier, so will be interesting to see its place in the meta in a few weeks time. I've already started investing in my regirock's speed for this.
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 306-360 (103 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Glastrier: 294-348 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Regirock: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Crunch vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wishiwashi-School: 140-165 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

:jellicent: Honestly I think jellicent will soon be the newest addition to the S rank pokemon. Its ability to wall every spinner in the game now (even eldegoss) and it being one of the few switch ins to glastrier makes it a very easy pokemon to throw on a team. Specs is also ridiculous again with the best check in tsareena being gone.
:ferroseed: and :gigalith: are also major winners in the tsareena rise. Both threaten espeon enough to where it can't reliably block hazards and when you pair these mons with jelli it can be a real pain. I have ultimately given up on spinners and have started using defog silvally forms more and more due to the giga/jelli/seed combo being so annoying.

Ultimately I think the meta will need some time to settle, but as it stands those are my thoughts. tl;dr espeon is broken, spikes + jelli is the best playstyle and glastrier may be broken once it is used more. I will probably post another one of these next week once things are a bit more settled. Hot prediction of the day is that we should eventually ban jellicent to save the tier but we'll ignore that...
 
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PTF

Secret Santa (the sixth time)
is a Tiering Contributor
:archeops: :espeon: :ribombee: :jellicent: :gigalith: :ferroseed:

Here's a quick team for those wanting to get a feel of the meta but don't have a team. I built this in a minute and a half after reading Vulpix03's post above and it's pretty decent. It features Archeops + Espeon which form an offensive core to break down opposing teams. Ribombee takes advantage of Espeon's ability to pressure walls like Aggron, Gigalith and Togedemaru and sweep late game. Ribombee could opt for Defog over Aromatherapy but I would not recommend it because it limits its sweeping potential and most teams will attempt to defog the hazards you set which clears your side too. Gigalith and Ferroseed form the team's defensive backbone as well as a hazard stacking core that can pressure defensive Espeon nicely. I truly think Jellicent is the best mon in the meta rn now that Tsareena is gone and it's on this team to spinblock and blanket check physically offensive mons. You can opt for Water Absorb on Jelli to block opposing Jelli's Water Spout which is definitely threatening.

Here's a replay of me winning with it in a final battle of a room tour: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1485205332.

Enjoy
 
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2xTheTap

YuGiOh main
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
I have a lot of thoughts about this meta that I've been sharing in Discord recently (the tldr version is that I really like it, it's much easier to build in and way more offensive than our previous meta, mostly thanks to Espeon dropping), but I wanted to very quickly share a Glastrier set that isn't CB or SD that Milah and I have been tinkering with! You can do a lot with its EVs given its insane bulk, and naturally giving it extra staying power facilitates its ability to activate Chilling Neigh more frequently vs offensive Pokemon, giving it the feel of something like Guzzlord in SM PU. It's crazy how good this feels to use, especially in the context of having a much needed blanket check to popular special attackers like Espeon, Ribombee, Articuno-Galar, Vanilluxe, and so on (this really alleviates pressure on Togedemaru and makes playing around those threats with it less precarious with that extra cushion that Glastrier provides). I give you AV gorse (the real gorse):


Glastrier @ Assault Vest
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Atk / 36 Def / 160 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower
- Payback
- Body Press

This does amazingly well with Espeon's Wish and Magic Bounce support given you're not running Heavy-Duty Boots here. High Horse Power and Icicle Crash are self-explanatory, but Payback over Crunch might seem a little strange. Glastrier is almost always moving second after its foe due to its 30 base Speed, so Payback is basically 100 BP in most scenarios - even with just Adamant 44 Atk, Payback does 50% min to bulky Jellicent after Colbur Berry has been used up. It's also a sure OHKO on offensive Espeon (the best it can do is either Trick, or Psyshock, which is still a 3HKO). Meanwhile, defensive WishTect variants take a minimum of 66%.
Body Press can easily be Close Combat, but the idea here is to avoid Close Combat Def / SpDef drops while also enabling AV Glastrier to function as a check to offensive Ice-types like Aurorus and Vanilluxe (12 Def gives it a 93.8% chance to OHKO Aurorus and 36 Def EVs are needed for the OHKO, but some extra Speed may prove to be more useful). 44 Speed EVs can also be used to creep base 35s and slower, namely Quagsire, Palossand, and Clefairy. High Special Defense investment, max HP, and Assault Vest together mean Charizard's Fire Blast misses the 2HKO on you. This is honestly huge for it and just one of the many applications for this extra bulk; see below for some other applications for AV and this bulkier spread:

:Charizard:
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 168-200 (41.6 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

44+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 177-208 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 44+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 264-312 (88.8 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
44+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 262-310 (88.2 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (on a Roost)

:Espeon:
252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psychic vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Glastrier: 154-183 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

44+ Atk Glastrier Payback (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Espeon: 224-264 (67.2 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44+ Atk Glastrier Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 340-402 (125.4 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Articuno-Galar:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno-Galar Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 153-181 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno-Galar Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Glastrier: 166-196 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno-Galar Freezing Glare vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 126-148 (31.2 - 36.7%) -- 75.5% chance to 3HKO

44+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Articuno-Galar: 330-390 (102.8 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Jellicent:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 160-190 (39.7 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

44+ Atk Glastrier Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(this calc is Jellicent sans Colbur and operates under the assumption Glastrier is hitting Jellicent on the switch - this Jellicent is also creeping Adamant 252 Glastrier)
44+ Atk Glastrier Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jellicent: 300-354 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

:Ribombee:
+3 252 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 166-196 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

44+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ribombee: 216-255 (82.7 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Vanilluxe:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Water Pulse vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 51-61 (12.6 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 136-162 (33.7 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

12 Def Glastrier Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 168-198 (59.3 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Aurorus:
12 Def Glastrier Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aurorus: 384-452 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Aurorus Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 260-308 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And just for fun, not that these are super relevant calcs:

:Magneton:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Assault Vest Glastrier: 218-258 (54 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

44+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 448-528 (185.8 - 219%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Palossand:
44+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Palossand: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Clefairy: (for when you're creeping Quagsire and Palossand)
44+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 169-201 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO


Gonna hang these combat logs on the wall of my apartment somewhere:

The opposing Charizard used Fire Blast! It's super effective! (Glastrier lost 47.6% of its health!)
Glastrier used Icicle Crash! (The opposing Charizard lost 100% of its health!)
The opposing Charizard fainted! [Glastrier's Chilling Neigh] Glastrier's Attack rose! :toast:
 
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Ishtar

formerly keppy
is a Pre-Contributor
Gm!!!!There's a lot of talk bout how the drops are changing the tier, but I thought I'd shift the focus a bit to some of the lesser talked about mons in the meta that have a chance to rise to prominence with this shift or that are simply fun options that could maybe make an impact. Most of these I've tried myself while others I've seen friends use or simply theorycrafted. This meta has a LOT of good things going for it. I'm not gonna make a VR post bout these (yet at least), just wanted to showcase some fun and potentially viable mons in this meta that were either not viable altogether before or are simply a lot better right now.

First imma just mention some of the mons I've already seen relevant talk about as to simply mention for those who might just be tryna test things out after reading forums:

:sneasel: :silvally: (water) :kabutops: :runerigus: :palossand: :stunfisk-galar: and a million more...........

:klinklang:
KK simply benefits from all of the drops + the already existing meta in a way that a few wincons can. It's ability to setup on certain Espeon and Glastrier sets as well as on Ninjask turns it into a mon that can quickly turn the tides of a match with an easy Sub and Shift Gear. I've personally encounter a v low amount of Quag through my games which is amazing for it, which makes sense considering people are utilizing more Jelli as a means to stop threats like Glastrier or simply abusing dumb Specs set.
It's cons?
It must run Wild Charge to break through Jelli naturally. You're probably giving up the defensive utility of other Steels like Toge and Aggron. Potential trends like Palossand which are meant to pressure Magic Bounce Espeon could easily ruin its viability.
Actual con: you're reminded of darker times when it was broken so you start feeling anxious and wanna quit again.

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 248-294 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Regirock: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

:magmortar:
Mag is a huge winner in this meta imo and it's a lot easier to fit into teams than the aforementioned Steel. Lower usage of Gigalith allows Mag to simply own teams relying too hard on Regi, Archeops and Jelli to deal with Fire-types defensively. I've had major success with Boots and Toxic as last move, but Specs' ability to OHKO Glastrier is definitely something to look out for.
It's also not slow to the point where you'd be taken advantage of by that much considering the faster paced meta.
Higher usage of Whims isn't really a problem and neither is Ninjask when you're at high percents. You're even faster than defensive variants of Espeon. I honestly think that this mon is very solid right now and should definitely see major usage. Main con? It's very ugly looking.

252+ SpA Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Regirock: 272-322 (74.7 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Magmortar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

:lycanroc:
Lycan is one of the great fast breakers in the current meta. One of the best examples of threats that have once again become relevant thanks to its ability to threaten all of the new drops offensively, granting it opportunities to SD or simply launch attacks with its perfect coverage. Defensive Jelli and Regi give it a tough time breaking and its below average bulk usually means you gotta be very accurate with how you use it, but this is nothing new for Lycan as a mon and it definitely has the tools to be one of the best sweepers the tier has right now. Coverage also allows it to make good progress vs them.
Cons: grrrrr.

:whimsicott:
Offensive sets are the only ones I've really enjoyed using in this meta. gum used Specs w Switcheroo and Defog vs me and I've come to consider it the most consistent at disrupting/giving u utility while also not making u the most passive thing on the planet.
Pros: don't gotta worry bout accidently defogging on Queenly Majesty mon.

:lanturn:
Another mon that in previous meta felt very underwhelming but was still fairly usable, and can't lie, Lanturn still has all of the awkward issues its always had, but I think its an ok choice in a meta filled with Specs Jelli and no Tsareena. It's just often overlooked cause of its not so great rep in prior metas, but it's genuinely solid at what it does and offers fine utility. Idk, lanturn doesn't fl0p as hard anymore.
Main con: You're not using Jelli w it probably.

:cinccino:
This is a funny one. Anything faster than Espeon, with Knock and decent stats is probably viable rn. Cinccino is sorta like a fake Ninjask in that it's a slightly slower U-Turn bot BUT one that can actually make progress vs. Rock, Steel and Ghost types thanks to Knock, Bullet, Axel. It's never gonna do anything crazy but u should definitely consider it in ur nifty Volt turn squadrons w/ ur Jellis and ur Gallades and things like that.
Con: You're hateful and dislike cute things.

:froslass:
Hell yeaaaa fuck it up gurl!!! Lass is cool. Spikers that pressure Espeon are cool. If you wanna be cool you gotta try out Froslass. Banded hits pretty hard into most things and u can always Trick and make that rat or Regi die a painful slow death like they do in most mus. Sucks it speed ties with offensive Espeon but u don't gotta be the fastest to be the baddest.
Con: I'm not her.

:rotom:
Rotom is ok. Definitely one of the more viable Defog options with access to Will-O, Volt, etc. It gets worn down af but it's a practical remover that threatens potential switch ins from Guno to Spdef walls that naturally hate being statused.
Con: locked behind post-game in bdsp.

:lurantis:
I initially saw yandaud using Lurantis and doing pretty well with it. It gets often quite pressured by things but also has the utility to be useful even offensively. This isn't your Tsareena replacement but a viable choice nonetheless. Couple times better than Eldegoss for sure and definitely deserves to be ranked if Elde somehow gets a spot in the VR this shift.
Cons: Low PP on moves, has to decide between Knock and Superpower, you might accidently load up a game with the wrong ability.

:crustle:
I have no clue how good this really cuz in the random teams I've used I believe I've been unable to support it super efficiently. Despite this, I find Crustle to be pretty scary for non Jask teams. It's not rare to rely on your bee as fastest mon, and with an ability to setup on a lot as well as do very solid damage to mons like Jelli, Ferro, even Regi with not the craziest of chip, I find that Crustle is another great antioffense mon with some potential. If you've happened to encounter lots of Quags and Sandas, you can always opt for Solar Blade, though your setup opportunities aren't obviously as broad.

+2 252 Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Jellicent: 261-307 (64.6 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Crustle Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Regirock: 164-194 (45 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Crustle X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Sandaconda: 141-166 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I think something it has over Costa is its ability to outspeed Bee and Whims after a Shell Smash, though Costa definitely has its own attributes like Jet, typing, etc.
Con: You're a bottom tier choice in Pokemon Unite.
Pro: Youre top 1 in the right hands.

:gourgeist:
With access to Sneak, a good offensive movepool and a lack of Normal types being used rn thanks to Regi, Ferro, Jelli, Gourg should probably be seeing more usage rn. I even saw some talk bout NP sets in PU room yesterday and it sounded surprisingly not awful (I forget who mentioned it, I am SORRY, thank you for reminding me of this relic)....Lmk if it's very neat and viable if u happen to try it out!
But ye, any other set is probably decent rn just cuz of how the mon works.
Cons: U can't bully Tsareena w it anymore so that personal victory is nonexistant.

:thwackey:
EviGaro would probably want me to mention this. Nah but fr offense w Seed Espeon is definitely a lot more viable rn and ppl should try out the playstyle more.
Cons: And hes still Thwackey.

Hope this puts some mons in your radar and help you diversify your team choices. If theres ever been a time to be a lot more creative in PU that time is definitely now. Go AAA and Sensei Axew, gobonight!!!!
 
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:espeon:

Specs is kinda busted, ngl. 2HKOs a huge chunk of the meta while anything that can stand up to it is crippled by Trick or obliterated by Dazzling Gleam/Grass Knot. The fact that it pairs excellently with Ninjask and Gallade only serve to make this mon much, much more of a pain to fight. So far I've found that Steel + Dark-type + fat special wall to be an ok response to Espeon, but I can't see the meta healthily adapting to Esp if we're pigeonholed into running a variant of the above in order to check it. Other sets are fine but Specs is the real issue here IMO.

:ninjask:

On the other hand… nahh. This thing is stonewalled by Gigalith, Aggron, Regirock, defensive Jellicent, etc without obscure techs such as Power Herb + Dig for the former two, is pitifully weak without a boost, despises chip damage & status… you get the point. Though I'll give Ninjask credit for being such an amazing momentum bot and a terrifying cleaner once everything is weakened enough. It's also an excellent enabler for some of PU's most potent breakers, particularly the aforementioned Espeon, Specs Jelli, and Gallade. Overall good mon, just not the demon it was back then.

:glastrier:

I faced exactly one Glastrier during my time on ladder, and it was stopped by Jellicent every moment it got in. Can't say much about it, other than that it seems potent in Trick Room and forces trades like no other mon.
 

2xTheTap

YuGiOh main
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Tired of losing because your SpDef Togedemaru was crippled by ChoiceTrick Espeon? End the Togedemaru abuse with this set! :blobstop:


Togedemaru @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod / Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 224 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Fling
- Spiky Shield
- Wish
- Iron Head

If Espeon were really a psychic, he could've avoided this toxic fling! badum tis ...This set's function is five-fold (the given Speed EVs allow it to creep Timid Aurorus):

1) Use this as a dedicated switch-in to Trick/Switcheroo users like Espeon, Ribombee, Whimsicott, Rotom, etc. Once "crippled" by Trick, Fling away Togedemaru's newly acquired choice item so that you are no longer choice-locked. Voila, crisis averted!

2) When one of these Pokemon uses Trick versus Fling+Toxic Orb Togedemaru, they'll receive Toxic Orb in exchange (seeing a statused Espeon is pretty strange...).
You could take this a step further and plan to give their Espeon a different shitty item like Iron Ball (Iron Ball + Fling happens to be a 130 BP Dark move too that OHKOes offensive Espeon from full without investment if they didn't click Trick), which halves Espeon's Speed, but Toxic Orb was the first option that came to mind.

3) Fling + Toxic Orb works as a one-time use Toxic, so you still can cripple bulky Ground-types like Quagsire and Palossand on a telegraphed switch.

4) Pretty obvious, but whatever Trick user attempts to cripple Togedemaru has also now lost their boosting item, making the Trick user not as threatening in the long run.

5) After Fling has been used, Togedemaru is also now itemless and therefore immune to Poltergeist damage, meaning it can safely switch into prominent users of the move like Froslass. This reduction in damage also applies to Knock Off and lets you sponge that for Togedemaru's item-reliant teammates.

:Silvally:
I've found that Silvally makes for a great partner to this set. If the opponent's Trick user receives Toxic Orb, they're likely going to try and return it on the following turn, which is easily blocked by Silvally thanks to its memory not being a tradable item. Togedemaru with a Silvally of your choosing (but not Silvally-Normal) gives you a lot of flexibility in builder from the get go, given that you've already slotted on the most splashable gluemon in the meta and potentially hazard removal or a strong wincon in those first two slots.

:Sandslash-Alola::Aggron:
There are some other Psychic resists with access to Fling in the tier that also don't like losing their item to Choice Specs Espeon and need to avoid being choice-locked to remain functional, but their 4MSS is bad enough that I wouldn't slot Fling onto these other users unless I were desperate (SpDef Sandslash-A and Aggron both have access though).

:Espeon:
Just talking about Espeon generally now: I've been building a lot lately and continue to find new techs that you can use to better account for Choice Specs Espeon's presence in the meta.

:Ninjask::Sneasel:
I really don't think it's lacking counterplay to the point something would need to be done about it from a tiering standpoint, unless you consider Power Herb Dig Espeon to be a viable set (s/o tlenit). At the same time, Espeon's presence here seems to be a net positive and has turned up the speed of the meta significantly (more and more people are adapting to Espeon via offensive options like Ninjask, Sneasel, stronger Sucker Punch users like Absol, and so on), which in my opinion is greatly preferable to playing our last meta wherein scarfers weren't even required and our fastest thing regularly slotted on as speed control was Ribombee.

:Tsareena:
Not only that, but Espeon has dropped at a critical time - we just lost our top option for hazard removal (Tsareena) in the shift, so Espeon being here makes up for that in a way.

:Druddigon::Weezing::Palossand::Runerigus:
This might be obvious too, but just like in Xatu meta, there are viable Mold Breaker / Neutralizing Gas Pokemon that can bypass Espeon's Magic Bounce (Druddigon and Weezing especially, or Pinsir if you're feeling frisky). Similarly, other hazard setters that have type advantage versus Espeon and make it think twice before switching in are more usable than before, namely Palossand and Runerigus (old news, but I've always been a fan of Runerigus, especially when you consider how it can absorb Audino's Knock Off, steal Regenerator, and keep Audino low on HP that way in one fell swoop).

:Shiftry:
Lastly, there are a lot of good Pokemon that can threaten Espeon via their superior speed or priority moves, but one that I don't see mentioned too often is Shiftry. I've been building with Shiftry more and more, and often used it in our last meta for the OHKO on Articuno-G via its LO 252+ Sucker Punch. It being an offensive Grass / Ghost / Psychic resist with a lot of utility that restricts Espeon's options and limits how much damage it can do to a team in turn is more than enough reason for me to vie for it. Anyway, try out Fling Togedemaru (and AV Glastrier / Shiftry)!
 

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