Metagame NP: RU Stage 1 - I Lost Something in the Hills (Indeedee-M banned)

[Setendo]

PSA
Adamant Barraskewda outspeeds the entire unboosted tier barring Boltund. (It hits 371 Speed)
Jolly can also outspeed a +1 Jolly Flapple (408 Speed)
So for general purposes, Adamant seems to be the way to go, with Jolly being used if Boltund or +1 Base 70s gives your team trouble.

I imagine that this is probably common knowledge, but I haven't seen anyone mention in, so I figured I'd just make this for people who were out of the loop.

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

PSA
Adamant Barraskewda outspeeds the entire unboosted tier barring Boltund. (It hits 371 Speed)

Accelgor outspeeds even Jolly Barraskewda, FYI.
Also Ninjask, Eiscue-Noice and Jolteon, although none of those are anywhere close to being viable.

 

[Ningildo]

Tested this thing for a few battles.

It's okay so far. Hits really hard with Heavy Metal Heavy Slam and, if you run at least 112 HP and 252 Sp Def EVs, you can live Modest Specs Goodra Fire Blast by the skin of your teeth and hit back for a KO (if you run LO, you only need 52 Attack EVs + Adamant to guarantee the OHKO with Heavy Slam on 0 HP / 4 Def, although at the cost of Copperajah itself). Alternatively, you can run 112 HP / 168 Sp Def to live Timid Specs Fire Blast and run 148 Atk Adamant with Metal Coat to achieve the OHKO.

It absolutely sucks as a SR setter, though, mainly due losing to Mudsdale. This might also be because I was running the LO spread with more Attack than needed and no Speed investment, which might change things (you need 44 Speed EVs to outpace 0 Speed Mudsdale fwiw). Even then, the second spread can't 2HKO with Power Whip due Stamina, and the first spread has a solid chance of just dying post LO recoil to an EQ. It also can't really do much to Steelix unless it runs EQ, which takes up 3 slots between SR and Heavy Slam. Which leaves Stone Edge (for various Steel resistant fliers), Power Whip (for Mudsdale and various other Grounds and Waters) or Heat Crash (for slightly harder hits on Grasses and if you really hate Escavalier).

Haven't tested non SR sets due a lack of time, but at least on paper, CB sounds like a decent wallbreaker, provided you run enough Speed to outrun min Speed Defensive Vileplume (lest you get Strength Sapped into non threat status unless you run Heat Crash). But, again, haven't tried it myself.


Cramorant is cool, if completely and utterely blanked by Water immune mons with decent Special bulk to take a potential Flying STAB. All it can do at that point is Defog or Roost if it needs to and switch, so pack switch ins to Gastro, Quagsire and Mantine. It can also pair up with Steelix for a decent defensive core, though Cramorant's lack of physical bulk means you probably need additional answers to Fighters. Gulp Missile hasn't come into play as often as I would've liked, though it does sometimes disuades attacks. It's fine, can check Salazzle fairly well with Boots and Zard outside of Sun (ha) and Defog, but it really wishes it had Toxic.


Indeedee-Male is thus far the best mon out of the drops I tested. Specs hits hard and has great coverage with Mystical Fire (Steels), Dazzling Gleam(Silvally-Dark and Sableye) or Energy Ball (Gastro, mainly). Psychic vs Psyshock is a hard choice, honestly. Psychic hits harder in general, but Psyshock hits Snorlax and Goodra for much more damage, although it does raise issues against Mudsdale without Energy Ball. Trick is great for crippling something in case you can't do much spamming attacks. All in all, a solid wallbreaker with a good Speed tier.


Run Silvally-Fairy if you need a offensive Goodra check.


Sword and Shield are still bad.

 

[Terrakion.]

time for my single post in metagame discussion until the next thread sharing an early team.



i guess this is a little updated version of the team i posted in the last thread. personally, i think the last team was more solid since gigalith covered so much within the meta, its almost impossible for something to fill that void gigalith has on teams. losing sigilyph to the ban as well took a toll on the offensive pressure the team provided as well. i still wanted the same idea of pivoting with passimian and i wanted to try rotom since i thought a nasty plot hex set would be a pretty cool tech to run. looking around, i threw steelix on as my rocker and proceeded with one of my faovrite defensive cores in gastro / vileplume. this slot i was dumbfounded on what to do, i still wanted something that hit relatively hard, but also needed hazard removal. i threw on silvally-fairy since it was an offensive goodra check and had access to defog. i do struggle a bit with common offensive meta threats such as salazzle, charizard, vikavolt etc. (there's probably a bunch of alternative spreads i could use that would give me a better time vs. a plethora of offensive mons.) and i do have a hard time breaking through some defensive mons like jellicent, vileplume, and others. gonna do a bunch of other testing since i just learned that some mons like snorlax are ru for some reason so gonna test around, but just wanted to share a team i was using for a little bit for early experience on the meta post bans and recent tier changes via usage.


just some early results of the few games i've played

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[phantom]

​

The council is set to vote on Goodra in the next few days. Since the most recent tier shift, Goodra has cemented itself as the best Pokemon in the tier. Its well rounded offensive stats, perfect movepool, and good speed had made it the most dangerous Choice Specs user in the tier. Goodra is also quite the defensive behemoth, able to check special attackers such as Ninetales, Rotom, and take turns off of walls like Vileplume. The gives Goodra ample opportunity to switch-in and nab a kill. Due to its incredible coverage, Goodra has no counters in the tier. Balance teams are required to employ entire defensive cores dedicated towards checking Goodra; even then, the effectiveness of said cores to take on Goodra hinge on proper guesswork. Due to the lack of resources the tier has to deal with it, Goodra has been put up to be voted on. Feel free to share your thoughts on Goodra as the vote concludes.

 

[Mavis]

held off on making a goodra video bc I knew you goons in the council would pull something like this

Goodra is powerful, fast, gets in safe, and can cause huge damage to a lot of teams- and I've been a very vocal anti-ban-goodragon for some time now. Sure, it can always potentially have the moves to beat you, but it might not. A lot of beating or losing to Goodra is done in the prediction game, and while that isn't exactly super healthy, it isn't always unhealthy either. Yes, it's very up there in usage as the best Pokemon in the tier, and is a dominant threat that everyone needs to be prepared for, it has several checks that find their way into vauous teams.

Both parts of Lixtine, Aromatisse, Silvally Fairy and Steel (to an extent), Copperajah, Snorlax and specially defensive Scrafty all check the Choice Specs variant, and Mudsdale, Steelix, physical defensive invested Snorlax, and anything with a beefy physical defense can tank the Choice Band set.

That being said, I can understand why Goodra can be seen as broken. It forces you to structure your team a certain way lest you immediately get destroyed straight from preview, and expecting Specs but getting hit with Band can sometimes be all the opening it needs to win a game then and there.

With these things in mind, if I was voting on Goodra, I'd say vote ban. However, similar to the Shiftry ban, this is one I'd like to see looked at down the road in a couple months time, as it's very iffy and teeters on the edge of not being broken, at least to me.

 

[Expulso]

My thoughts on Goodra suspect:

tl;dr:
- Goodra can easily switch in versus multiple Pokemon on any team.
- Once it comes in, it always KOs something on unprepared teams.
- To prepare, every team must bring multiple (2-4) Pokemon dedicated just to stopping Goodra;
- Therefore, Goodra is overcentralizing and restricts teambuilding to an excessive degree.
- The prediction game Goodra creates every time it comes in (even versus a prepared team!) is unhealthy for the metagame.
- Thus, Goodra should be BANNED.


As phantom said above, balanced teams are required to run entire cores (Steel + Fairy + 1 or 2 specially bulky mons, such as Mantine, Snorlax, or SpDef Scrafty) to prevent Goodra from flat-out winning. This is necessary because Goodra is both extremely powerful and gets tons of opportunities to switch in. Against balance teams, Goodra can use its great bulk and the resistances provided by its Dragon typing to come in against Vileplume, Jellicent, Mantine, Coalossal, Gastrodon, and plenty of other defensive Pokemon that are unable to damage it significantly. (Note that I listed Mantine as a switch-in earlier! Specs Goodra can also switch in to Mantine and OHKO it with Thunderbolt. If it is weakened at all, thru a fighting type's Knock Off removing its boots or status / chip damage, it becomes an extremely shaky check. Under ~65%, Goodra breaks thru with Draco, circumventing the prediction game entirely).

Once it comes in, Specs Goodra can 2HKO almost anything in the meta. Steel-types die to Fire Blast, Fairies die to Sludge Wave, and basically everything else dies to Draco. It comes in very frequently versus balance teams, forcing at least 5 predictions every game where a Pokemon will usually die if you make a mistake.

My first RU Kickoff game is great evidence of this. I didn't have a fairy (i.e. Silvally-Fairy or Aromatisse) on my team, and so I spent the first 20 turns getting slight chip on Goodra and trying not to die to it. If he clicked Draco rather than Goodra's coverage moves on a few turns, Goodra would have been even more lethal).
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1077535409-ylinrib7pgac13wcbb9h8exaeu3e9wlpw
( I always switched my Goodra out vs his because I realized that I was Modest :/ )

However, Goodra can come in versus offensive teams as well! Offensive teams must run wallbreakers for balance teams; due to its Base 80 Speed, Goodra can outspeed almost any other "wallbreaker" (the only exceptions: Ninetales, Salazzle, and CM Indeedee). If Goodra gets in front of a slower wallbreaker, either through a double switch or by revenging after the wallbreaker KOs a mon, something will die. Goodra's Special bulk and typing also allow it to come in and wall many Special offensive staples (such as Ninetales, Salazzle, and Rotom), drop a Draco, kill something, and repeat.
When I tried to build a team that was more offensive than the typical balance squads we see in this meta, I was forced to always use both Slurpuff and Silvally-Steel, since they were the best Fairy / Steel offensive core and I needed a Fairy/Steel core to prevent Specs Goodra from auto-winning.

Goodra restricts teambuilding for every playstyle. This means that I can only really experiment with 2-3 different slots -- I've built about 10 teams in this meta, and they all look more or less the same, with a few mons swapped in and out of the few slots not devoted to the Goodra prediction game.

Goodra basically turns the meta into a guessing game every time it switches in. This is unhealthy for the metagame, where skill and creative teambuilding should determine what wins a battle instead of mindgames, guesswork, and how well-prepared your team is for one extraordinarily dominant threat alone.

Therefore, I recommend that we BAN GOODRA.
an extra benefit: we make bkdrew re-do the entire VR again >:-)

one final point which I forgot to mention: there are also no trade-offs to using Goodra. It puts in work against any team, whether it be through Sap Sipper blocking grass-type attacks from the likes of Vileplume/Rillaboom, walling/checking so many special attackers, or dropping Specs Dracos and demolishing the other team.

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

Goodra is powerful, fast, gets in safe, and can cause huge damage to a lot of teams- and I've been a very vocal anti-ban-goodragon for some time now. Sure, it can always potentially have the moves to beat you, but it might not. A lot of beating or losing to Goodra is done in the prediction game, and while that isn't exactly super healthy, it isn't always unhealthy either. Yes, it's very up there in usage as the best Pokemon in the tier, and is a dominant threat that everyone needs to be prepared for, it has several checks that find their way into vauous teams.

Both parts of Lixtine, Aromatisse, Silvally Fairy and Steel (to an extent), Copperajah, Snorlax and specially defensive Scrafty all check the Choice Specs variant, and Mudsdale, Steelix, physical defensive invested Snorlax, and anything with a beefy physical defense can tank the Choice Band set.

That being said, I can understand why Goodra can be seen as broken. It forces you to structure your team a certain way lest you immediately get destroyed straight from preview, and expecting Specs but getting hit with Band can sometimes be all the opening it needs to win a game then and there.

With these things in mind, if I was voting on Goodra, I'd say vote ban. However, similar to the Shiftry ban, this is one I'd like to see looked at down the road in a couple months time, as it's very iffy and teeters on the edge of not being broken, at least to me.

If I could vote, I would personally vote NO BAN. Heres why.

Although Goodra may be very specially bulky, it's physical bulk is not up to par, allowing physical attackers that can hit a super effective move to kill it easily, like Flapple, Silvally-Fairy, Slurpuff, Silvally-Dragon (if you're crazy), (EDIT 1: NVM) as far as I know.

Like BKDrew said, it can always potentially have the moves to beat you, but it might not.

The following calcs are related to the specs set.

252 Atk Silvally-Fairy Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 422-500 (131.4 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Goodra Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4+ SpD Silvally-Fairy: 262-310 (79.1 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Goodra Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Fairy: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

I mean, I can see why this is banworthy, but again, like BKDrew said, it just TEETERS on the edge of barely being broken.

In conclusion, Goodra should not be banned, but I can see both sides of the argument. Goodra has its checks, and it just so happens to have subpar physical bulk, which allows certain mons to OHKO it. If my slimy beast does get banned, it should be revisited once all the DLC releases, as the meta could have completely changed by then.

 

[cyanize]

guess i might as well put my thoughts out there on goodra

personally i think goodra is definitely unhealthy for the meta. its coverage, versatility, splashability and ridiculous power are frankly just too much for this tier to handle. goodra is, imo, by far and away the most threatening mon in the tier to the degree of overcentralization; more often than not, you have to dedicate more than two team slots just to switchins for its different moves, because if you only have one or two and a goodra player predicts you correctly, you lose your check thanks to the stupid power of its coverage. once you lose a goodra check, the player using the goodra has a lot more freedom to make the right reads on you - and woe be unto you if the check you lost was your only draco resist. on top of all that, you don't actually lose defensive utility by running a goodra. matter of fact, it's one of the better special blankets in the tier, providing a check to rotom(s), ninetales, salazzle, and galvantula, among other things. additionally, it's grass immunity lets it punish unscrupulous vileplume attempting to recover, or rillaboom who think they have a good opportunity to break something. and to add to that, goodra's 80 base speed puts it over pretty much all the other wallbreakers like expulso mentioned, and makes it very hard to outspeed for walls as well meaning they almost always have to try to avoid being 2hkod by its dumb coverage.

and if that all wasnt enough, it also is very unpredictable; specs, scarf, and band are all very viable sets with distinctly different checks and coverage, and as much as i hate av, it is quite annoying to have goodra go from clicking sludge wave to fire blast unexpectedly, or for it to draco my gastrodon then pull power whip out of its ass. i've also seen lep experimenting with lo on offense to solid effect, and i've messed around with ebelt to pop cheeky mantines trying to defog my hazards with a surprise thunder. point is, this mon does way too much way too well, and again like expulso said, goodra turns interactions vs it into a game of guesswork where you lose more often than you win - is it modest? will it live this moonblast cus it's av? is he clicking tbolt for my mantine or fire blast for my rajah? does it have surf to wash my coalossal? even if i try to revenge it, is it scarf to outspeed my silvally? or maybe it has band and my snorlax is about to enter a different dimension. and so on and so forth. it's an exhasuting race that goodra has way too much of a head start in. also it fucking LOVES to crit me with -2 dracos and that shit makes me wanna blow a blood vessel.

with all that said though, i dont think the tier necessarily has to become homogenous on account of goodra's presence. while it's very true that you have to bring a specific subset of mons to stop it outright, it's often enough to pack a solid check and a few various mons to punish its various coverage moves. i've built with stuff like sd rhydon + togedemaru + whimsi which has perfectly fine synergy outside of overcompensating for goodra. somewhat overlooked mons like mawile, flareon, piloswine, gastro, and bulky zard (more on this later) can be paired with the typical checks to provide variance while still granting relative safety vs goodra (or other top tier threats.) oftentimes if i find myself struggling to check something, i take a stroll down the teambuilder and see what i can find that seems worth giving a spin - i implore more users to do the same, as more diversity in a meta usually doesn't hurt. to be fair, you could easily argue that the fact im considering mawile and flareon to be another point in favor of axing our friendly neighborhood draco dropper, but those mons (and others i didnt mention) are often capable of standing on their own and providing more than just a switchin to goodra attacks. im a pretty big proponent of scarf togedemaru and bulky zard in particular - i think these mons provide a lot of unique value to teams and need a lot more visibility. you never know what you'll discover, so do some exploration! not everything works out, but that just means you build another team n keep it moving.

anyways, tl;dr:

 

[Loom]

Have been waiting for this suspect for a little bit and I'm glad council has made it a priority to get Goodra out of this tier. Goodra is an insanely strong Pokemon which this meta is definitely unprepared to handle. A lot of our "checks" to Goodra can't even switch into it because it has the perfect coverage to hit the two types that are able to thwart it in its tracks being Fairy and Steel. Goodra is able to be put onto a plethora of teams due to how splash-able it is on builds and how effective it is. Goodra is also no slouch defensively, being able to sit on a ton of Special Attackers and stomach their hits with relative ease. Goodra also has a multitude of sets that can do different things, making it extremely unpredictable and almost unfair due to all of these sets being absurdly strong. The main 3 right now are Choice Band, Choice Specs, and Choice Scarf. Choice Band is able to smash many would be Goodra "checks" like Gastrodon and Snorlax. Goodra also heavily restricts building and can dictate a game straight from team preview, Just the surprise factor of expecting Specs and having your would be check get nuked by Choice Band can shift momentum heavily in the Goodra user's favor. With all of this being said, I think that Goodra should be BANNED from SS RU.

 

[Ningildo]

and if that all wasnt enough, it also is very unpredictable; specs, scarf, and band are all very viable sets with distinctly different checks and coverage, and as much as i hate av, it is quite annoying to have goodra go from clicking sludge wave to fire blast unexpectedly, or for it to draco my gastrodon then pull power whip out of its ass. i've also seen lep experimenting with lo on offense to solid effect, and i've messed around with ebelt to pop cheeky mantines trying to defog my hazards with a surprise thunder. point is, this mon does way too much way too well, and again like expulso said, goodra turns interactions vs it into a game of guesswork where you lose more often than you win - is it modest? will it live this moonblast cus it's av? is he clicking tbolt for my mantine or fire blast for my rajah? does it have surf to wash my coalossal? even if i try to revenge it, is it scarf to outspeed my silvally? or maybe it has band and my snorlax is about to enter a different dimension. and so on and so forth. it's an exhasuting race that goodra has way too much of a head start in. also it fucking LOVES to crit me with -2 dracos and that shit makes me wanna blow a blood vessel.

I mean, if it Draco's your Gastrodon and you don't notice it does 20% less than usual:

252 SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 166-196 (38.9 - 46%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 249-294 (58.4 - 69%)

You're kind of dropping the ball. Arguing that it's harder to check because it can switch moves if it forgoes specs ignores the significant power drop which will be noticeable if you have a damage calculator handy, thus ruining any surprise factor.

That said, it is hard to counter Goodra less because it has no safe switch ins to either Band or Specs, but because countering both in one slot (or even a few) is damn near impossible without resorting to the same build. Lax and Gastro can sit on Specs, Scarf and AV (scout for that whip), but get blown up by Band. Lix and Mudsdale can do okay against Band, but fear Fire Blast/Draco Meteor from the special sets. Guessing wrong can cost you a mon even if properly prepared.

There's a caveat to this, though. It can struggle a bit with offensive teams, doubly so if they lack slower mons. Even things you would expect it to do well against can give it trouble, such as Salazzle, with a SubToxic set, and Rotom, who can just Volt Switch into something that scares Goodra out. If you run Scarf, you can't KO some slower mons that can easily OHKO you back, such as Bewear. The only offensive mons Goodra can somewhat safely switch into are Ninetales (hope you don't get Wisped if you're Band), Chlorophyll Vileplume, non Specs Zard (if Sun is in play, else this is pretty free regardless of item) and Indeedee (only if it isn't Specs, else you need Scarf to kill it when switching in. Also, Specs Psyshock can OHKO 50% of the time on 0 HP / 0 Def Goodra without hazards). Anything else can chunk you hard if not KO you outright. So either you can't switch in easily because you need to usually take a hit before attacking (or use aggressive double switching, which can go either way) or you can switch in easily, but now require prediction to hurt the opposing team if they have resists/immunities to Draco Meteor (and Specs can still require prediction if the opponent has Silvally-Fairy/Steel).

A wallbreaker with a free turn getting a kill on offense isn't all that surprising or banworthy, by the by. And given the above, those are a bit harder to come by for Goodra than it first seems.

All in all, a bit on the fence here. It is probably the best wallbreaker in the tier due it's unpredictability and coverage, but is forced to run a (imo) inferior set if it wants to improve its matchup against offense.

 

[cyanize]

I mean, if it Draco's your Gastrodon and you don't notice it does 20% less than usual:

252 SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 166-196 (38.9 - 46%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 249-294 (58.4 - 69%)

You're kind of dropping the ball. Arguing that it's harder to check because it can switch moves if it forgoes specs ignores the significant power drop which will noticeable if you have a damage calculator handy, thus ruining any surprise factor.

That said, it is hard to counter Goodra less because it has no safe switch ins to either Band or Specs, but because countering both in one slot (or even a few) is damn near impossible without resorting to the same build. Lax and Gastro can sit on Specs, Scarf and AV (scout for that whip), but get blown up by Band. Lix and Mudsdale can do okay against Band, but fear Fire Blast/Draco Meteor from the special sets. Guessing wrong can cost you a mon even if properly prepared.

There's a caveat to this, though. It can struggle a bit with offensive teams, doubly so if they lack slower mons. Even things you would expect it to do well against can give it trouble, such as Salazzle, with a SubToxic set, and Rotom, who can just Volt Switch into something that scares Goodra out. If you run Scarf, you can't KO some slower mons that can easily OHKO you back, such as Bewear. The only offensive mons Goodra can somewhat safely switch into are Ninetales (hope you don't get Wisped if you're Band), Chlorophyll Vileplume, non Specs Zard (if Sun is in play, else this is pretty free regardless of item) and Indeedee (only if it isn't Specs, else you need Scarf to kill it when switching in. Also, Specs Psyshock can OHKO 50% of the time on 0 HP / 0 Def Goodra without hazards). Anything else can chunk you hard if not KO you outright. So either you can't switch in easily because you need to usually take a hit before attacking (or use aggressive double switching, which can go either way) or you can switch in easily, but now require prediction to hurt the opposing team if they have resists/immunities to Draco Meteor (and Specs can still require prediction if the opponent has Silvally-Fairy/Steel).

A wallbreaker with a free turn getting a kill on offense isn't all that surprising or banworthy, by the by. And given the above, those are a bit harder to come by for Goodra than it first seems.

All in all, a bit on the fence here. It is probably the best wallbreaker in the tier due it's unpredictability and coverage, but is forced to run a (imo) inferior set if it wants to improve its matchup against offense.

you bring up some valid points and i appreciate your argument, but there are things you neglected to consider (imo) - first, goodra may not necessarily have that many switchin opportunities, but they present themselves amply enough and far more so than any other wallbreaker in the tier (for example, vanilluxe has a pretty comparably low amount of reliable switchins, but it has absolutely no defensive value to speak of.) additionally, the offense mu is where its base 80 speed is a large boon for it - 80 speed is above the vast majority of the other wallbreakers and utility mons that youd find on your average offense team, from the aforementioned vanilluxe to things like rhydon, copperajah, dhelmise, vikavolt, bewear, and more. sure, offense may be able to pack faster mons, but there aren't enough faster mons to make a viable team - you're gonna need a rocker, you're probably gonna need hazard control (which you don't wanna delegate to silvally if it's your goodra check, and can get exploited by goodra if it's the other faster defoggers rotom or charizard), and you're probably gonna want a wallbreaker of your own that is probably slower than goodra provided it isnt a goodra itself. this also lets pivoting play directly into its favor as well, as paired with a volturner you can get insane amounts of mileage off of coming in on slower mons in addition to mons that cant ohko goodra (which is a LOT) and other mons that have pretty much no choice but to defer a huge chunk of damage, a trade or a kill to it. it exploits far too much in a straight 1v1 matchup vs any archetype. even mons that are supposed to check goodra can be placed on the backfoot this way - for example, uturning into goodra vs a steelix or leading vs a mantine is essentially a win for the goodra because the opposing player still has to play the dumb 50/50 game despite having a 1v1 with something that's supposed to check goodra. it's honestly kinda crazy how easy it is for goodra players to get the advantage even when the opposing side has multiple swirchins to it, and that's not something i think is healthy.
additionally, scarf has a sort of surprise factor to them that makes up for the poorer balance matchup - for example, you can snipe an unwary salazzle that expects to be able to subtoxic you for free, or pop an unsuspecting colbur rotom that wants to volt on you because it's sure that it's faster. this can apply to any number of faster bo/balance staples and losing a member in this way can be just as impactful as goodra's ability to break with specs or band.
lastly, i think you latched on to the most irrelevant and throwaway part of my post - i said myself that i think av sucks, but it can very easily trip people up by switching from a resisted move (that you wouldnt calc for, usually - who tf cares about fire blast damage on a gastro?) to one that shreds your switchin. it can also play to the fact of its weakness by bluffing scarf until the time is right, though usually it gives itself away through the damage it takes. bottom line is, draco was only used there as an example - replace that with tbolt or fire blast or sludge wave or surf or whatever the hell and it gets the same point across. it just adds to the unpredictability and guessing game that you play whenever you face goodra, and more often than not it's in the goodra's favor. i dont think the hoops and jumps you have to make it through to "check" this pokemon is healthy now or in the long run.

 

[EviGaro]

Hlelo, here are the results of the voting we did. Two thanks first: to the people who contributed smartly to the discussion here, fun debate people. And thanks to Ajna and Bebo for returning to the voting sheet for this round, be on the lookout for more news there soon maybe!

Anyway, onto the

voting:

Goodra votes

Ajna: ban: i believe that goodra is ban worthy due to the combination of its lack of reliable checks/counters, its great defensive typing, and its speed tier. goodra effectively has no counters due to the sheer amount of moves it can run. my decision to ban goodra almost complete omits the banded set, even though that set is definitely viable. special goodra alone is able to 2hko every single mon in the tier with the right coverage (bar spdef gastrodon, but it can very easily throw power whip on if it really wanted to). goodra also finds an ample amount of opportunities to come in throughout the game because of its pure dragon typing and great special defense, and sits at the very competitive base 80 speed tier. tldr, goodra is too much for the tier to handle

atomicllamas: Goodra: Ban - With the recent tier shifts, Goodra finds itself in an incredible position in the RU tier. Prior to the shifts Gigalith, one of the best answers to the specs and scarf sets in the tier, was prolific in the tier, but with the shift, we lost by far the best check / counter to the specs set. While we gained some pokemon that Goodra doesn't really care for, the only additional check to specs Goodra we received is Copperajah (AV is fire btw), which is far less splashable than Gigalith. I've found it essentially forces you to run SpD Silvally Fairy or Aromatisse + Steel if you hope to be able to prevent it from getting a free kill every time it comes in on something slower than it or any special attacker without a STAB super effective attack. And none of the good defensive answers have recovery aside from Aromatisse (I neglect to mention Alcreamie, cause the Alcreamie v Goodra match up is not that great). The specs set is just too strong, too bulky, and adequately fast for the RU tier at this point in time, and that's neglecting the Physical sets which can be used to lure in common checks for Goodra.

Averardo: Goodra: Ban. This pokemon has no real counters, since it can easily abuse both his immense special and physical coverage. The special set itself is also almost impossible to check, since the movepool is crazy good and makes every turn a guessing game for what move the goodra will click. Its special bulk is also incredibly high, allowing it to get in for free versus most of the special attackers in the tier. Sap Sipper also allows it to get in for free versus most grass types and make the band set even more threatning. Overall Goodra has too much going for it and it puts an immense pressure in teambuilding.

Bebo: ban: Goodra right now is easily the best mon in the tier. As everyone knows it’s specs set is incredibly strong, as it has solid coverage such as Sludge Wave, Draco Meteor, and Fireblast to hit all the annoying steels, making switch-ins super hard to find. It can also use other options as band, scarf, and lo for surprise factor and are all viable as well. I feel like Goodra also makes building much harder as people have to run the same core to play around goodra. Which I personally find extremely unhealthy in the current meta especially because of the fact that goodra can take advantage of every single turn if it clicks the right move. To top this all up even it’s spdef is amazing to check mons such as rotom, salazzle, vileplume and much more. Overall, at this time, I don't think Goodra is a positive force in the tier and should go.

EviGaro: ban: Goodra's Specs set currently provides too many opportunities on the part of the Goodra user and too many constraints on how to deal with it to be a positive presence in the tier. Its coverage is without faults, and forces balance teams to guess almost everytime despite having a core of three mons that can in theory keep it at bay, or spam protect on defensive mons to limit that over better moves. Goodra's bulk is also incredible, giving it many opportunities to come in and force tough choices and make it a very good target to sustain from a team perspective, stretching those mind games over and over. However, to imply this is simply a problem against balance would be an issue. Goodra's speed, raw power and resists are also extremely good against various kind of offensive builds - sun being the most obvious example - which just again makes it more of an hassle to cover if you're not using a build with the same three defensive mons cores.

Feliburn: Goodra: Ban Goodra is currently the best pokemon in the tier, as a lot of people know it can run Specs, Band and Scarf effectively but lol nobody is using Band or Scarf currently. The special set, be it either Choice Specs or Life Orb, is incredibly strong due to the limited switchins available cause it has a solid coverage, Draco Meteor, Sludge Wave, Thunderbolt, Fire Blast and even Focus Blast to hit Snorlax, making it incredibly hard to play around. Due to this, I feel like Goodra limits variety in building because it forces people to use the same few pokemon that can play around it as cores, making it a very unhealthy pokemon for the tiers development. And this isn't even mentioning it has amazing defensive value with its high Sp Def stat, serving as a check to Salazzle, Vileplume, and other special attackers in the tier. Overall I feel like at the time, Goodra is just not a positive factor for the tier and should go.

MrAldo: BAN
Goodra is a perfect package of amazing coverage in both physical and special, excellent bulk to switch into a lot of stuff and proceed to deal DAMAGE at the target, possess a really good speed tier for the metagame where the things that outspeed cant kill it straight up besides a select few and not all of them are as good and teams need to dedicate whole 3-pokemon cores to deal with it and then pivot into the coverage, which is a guessing game that goes both ways, if the opponent guesses right every time you just lost your defensive core to a single mon... and many of the checks lose to the banded set and viceversa. A little too good for my eyes, deserves a ban.

Odd Della Robbia: Goodra: Ban - Goodra is by far the best Pokémon in the tier, and it puts immense pressure on players in the teambuilder and in practice. It’s great special bulk gives it ample opportunities to come in, and it’s unpredictability and wide range of viable sets leaves the defender guessing what the Goodra is running. Choice Specs and Choice Band sets require the defender to correctly guess which move Goodra is locking into, while mixed attacking sets with Life Orb and Assault Vest have the freedom to switch moves and break through defensive cores with its incredible coverage. For these reasons I believe Goodra is too overcentralizing for the tier and should be banned.

phantom: Ban Counters are non-existent and it’s neither lacking in bulk or speed to make it any easier to deal with. I’ve seen an increase in cores designated towards beating Goodra by switching in on resisted hits and using Protect to scout for its moves, and those teams fall apart if Goodra runs Life Orb. Aside from that... there really isn’t anything else that can deal with it. When the countermeasures are this concentrated and yet still fail, I think it goes to show just how ridiculous this mon is. That’s not even getting into the fact that Goodra can run less effective but still good physical sets that actually take advantage of Sap Sipper and can more easily break through special walls. It has to go.

We thus have an unanimous decision, and Goodra is now banned from SWSH RU, tagging The Immortal and Marty to remove our favourite blob dragon thing from the ladder, thank you!

 

[Ningildo]

you bring up some valid points and i appreciate your argument, but there are things you neglected to consider (imo) - first, goodra may not necessarily have that many switchin opportunities, but they present themselves amply enough and far more so than any other wallbreaker in the tier (for example, vanilluxe has a pretty comparably low amount of reliable switchins, but it has absolutely no defensive value to speak of.) additionally, the offense mu is where its base 80 speed is a large boon for it - 80 speed is above the vast majority of the other wallbreakers and utility mons that youd find on your average offense team, from the aforementioned vanilluxe to things like rhydon, copperajah, dhelmise, vikavolt, bewear, and more. sure, offense may be able to pack faster mons, but there aren't enough faster mons to make a viable team - you're gonna need a rocker, you're probably gonna need hazard control (which you don't wanna delegate to silvally if it's your goodra check, and can get exploited by goodra if it's the other faster defoggers rotom or charizard), and you're probably gonna want a wallbreaker of your own that is probably slower than goodra provided it isnt a goodra itself. this also lets pivoting play directly into its favor as well, as paired with a volturner you can get insane amounts of mileage off of coming in on slower mons in addition to mons that cant ohko goodra (which is a LOT) and other mons that have pretty much no choice but to defer a huge chunk of damage, a trade or a kill to it. it exploits far too much in a straight 1v1 matchup vs any archetype. even mons that are supposed to check goodra can be placed on the backfoot this way - for example, uturning into goodra vs a steelix or leading vs a mantine is essentially a win for the goodra because the opposing player still has to play the dumb 50/50 game despite having a 1v1 with something that's supposed to check goodra. it's honestly kinda crazy how easy it is for goodra players to get the advantage even when the opposing side has multiple swirchins to it, and that's not something i think is healthy.
additionally, scarf has a sort of surprise factor to them that makes up for the poorer balance matchup - for example, you can snipe an unwary salazzle that expects to be able to subtoxic you for free, or pop an unsuspecting colbur rotom that wants to volt on you because it's sure that it's faster. this can apply to any number of faster bo/balance staples and losing a member in this way can be just as impactful as goodra's ability to break with specs or band.
lastly, i think you latched on to the most irrelevant and throwaway part of my post - i said myself that i think av sucks, but it can very easily trip people up by switching from a resisted move (that you wouldnt calc for, usually - who tf cares about fire blast damage on a gastro?) to one that shreds your switchin. it can also play to the fact of its weakness by bluffing scarf until the time is right, though usually it gives itself away through the damage it takes. bottom line is, draco was only used there as an example - replace that with tbolt or fire blast or sludge wave or surf or whatever the hell and it gets the same point across. it just adds to the unpredictability and guessing game that you play whenever you face goodra, and more often than not it's in the goodra's favor. i dont think the hoops and jumps you have to make it through to "check" this pokemon is healthy now or in the long run.

I'd still argue that you "could" infer it's Scarf by virtue of it attempting to go for a snipe on mons it could have issues against...

But it's honestly not that strong of an argument and would require a significant amount of skill and knowledge over the Goodra player for it to be applicable on a consistent basis.

The amount of mons that are both used on offense and slower than Goodra is also a bit larger than I thought, which means trying to build around Goodra speed tier, while not impossible, would limit the variety of teams you'd be able to make (and if such teams where to become commonplace to avoid Goodra issues, it would just indicate the strain Goodra has on teambuilding).

I already admitted it kinda dunks Balance/Stall, so no need to reiterate.

So yeah, I guess I lean more towards ba-

Hlelo, here are the results of the voting we did. Two thanks first: to the people who contributed smartly to the discussion here, fun debate people. And thanks to Ajna and Bebo for returning to the voting sheet for this round, be on the lookout for more news there soon maybe!

Anyway, onto the

voting:

Goodra votes

Ajna: ban: i believe that goodra is ban worthy due to the combination of its lack of reliable checks/counters, its great defensive typing, and its speed tier. goodra effectively has no counters due to the sheer amount of moves it can run. my decision to ban goodra almost complete omits the banded set, even though that set is definitely viable. special goodra alone is able to 2hko every single mon in the tier with the right coverage (bar spdef gastrodon, but it can very easily throw power whip on if it really wanted to). goodra also finds an ample amount of opportunities to come in throughout the game because of its pure dragon typing and great special defense, and sits at the very competitive base 80 speed tier. tldr, goodra is too much for the tier to handle

atomicllamas: Goodra: Ban - With the recent tier shifts, Goodra finds itself in an incredible position in the RU tier. Prior to the shifts Gigalith, one of the best answers to the specs and scarf sets in the tier, was prolific in the tier, but with the shift, we lost by far the best check / counter to the specs set. While we gained some pokemon that Goodra doesn't really care for, the only additional check to specs Goodra we received is Copperajah (AV is fire btw), which is far less splashable than Gigalith. I've found it essentially forces you to run SpD Silvally Fairy or Aromatisse + Steel if you hope to be able to prevent it from getting a free kill every time it comes in on something slower than it or any special attacker without a STAB super effective attack. And none of the good defensive answers have recovery aside from Aromatisse (I neglect to mention Alcreamie, cause the Alcreamie v Goodra match up is not that great). The specs set is just too strong, too bulky, and adequately fast for the RU tier at this point in time, and that's neglecting the Physical sets which can be used to lure in common checks for Goodra.

Averardo: Goodra: Ban. This pokemon has no real counters, since it can easily abuse both his immense special and physical coverage. The special set itself is also almost impossible to check, since the movepool is crazy good and makes every turn a guessing game for what move the goodra will click. Its special bulk is also incredibly high, allowing it to get in for free versus most of the special attackers in the tier. Sap Sipper also allows it to get in for free versus most grass types and make the band set even more threatning. Overall Goodra has too much going for it and it puts an immense pressure in teambuilding.

Bebo: ban: Goodra right now is easily the best mon in the tier. As everyone knows it’s specs set is incredibly strong, as it has solid coverage such as Sludge Wave, Draco Meteor, and Fireblast to hit all the annoying steels, making switch-ins super hard to find. It can also use other options as band, scarf, and lo for surprise factor and are all viable as well. I feel like Goodra also makes building much harder as people have to run the same core to play around goodra. Which I personally find extremely unhealthy in the current meta especially because of the fact that goodra can take advantage of every single turn if it clicks the right move. To top this all up even it’s spdef is amazing to check mons such as rotom, salazzle, vileplume and much more. Overall, at this time, I don't think Goodra is a positive force in the tier and should go.

EviGaro: ban: Goodra's Specs set currently provides too many opportunities on the part of the Goodra user and too many constraints on how to deal with it to be a positive presence in the tier. Its coverage is without faults, and forces balance teams to guess almost everytime despite having a core of three mons that can in theory keep it at bay, or spam protect on defensive mons to limit that over better moves. Goodra's bulk is also incredible, giving it many opportunities to come in and force tough choices and make it a very good target to sustain from a team perspective, stretching those mind games over and over. However, to imply this is simply a problem against balance would be an issue. Goodra's speed, raw power and resists are also extremely good against various kind of offensive builds - sun being the most obvious example - which just again makes it more of an hassle to cover if you're not using a build with the same three defensive mons cores.

Feliburn: Goodra: Ban Goodra is currently the best pokemon in the tier, as a lot of people know it can run Specs, Band and Scarf effectively but lol nobody is using Band or Scarf currently. The special set, be it either Choice Specs or Life Orb, is incredibly strong due to the limited switchins available cause it has a solid coverage, Draco Meteor, Sludge Wave, Thunderbolt, Fire Blast and even Focus Blast to hit Snorlax, making it incredibly hard to play around. Due to this, I feel like Goodra limits variety in building because it forces people to use the same few pokemon that can play around it as cores, making it a very unhealthy pokemon for the tiers development. And this isn't even mentioning it has amazing defensive value with its high Sp Def stat, serving as a check to Salazzle, Vileplume, and other special attackers in the tier. Overall I feel like at the time, Goodra is just not a positive factor for the tier and should go.

MrAldo: BAN
Goodra is a perfect package of amazing coverage in both physical and special, excellent bulk to switch into a lot of stuff and proceed to deal DAMAGE at the target, possess a really good speed tier for the metagame where the things that outspeed cant kill it straight up besides a select few and not all of them are as good and teams need to dedicate whole 3-pokemon cores to deal with it and then pivot into the coverage, which is a guessing game that goes both ways, if the opponent guesses right every time you just lost your defensive core to a single mon... and many of the checks lose to the banded set and viceversa. A little too good for my eyes, deserves a ban.

Odd Della Robbia: Goodra: Ban - Goodra is by far the best Pokémon in the tier, and it puts immense pressure on players in the teambuilder and in practice. It’s great special bulk gives it ample opportunities to come in, and it’s unpredictability and wide range of viable sets leaves the defender guessing what the Goodra is running. Choice Specs and Choice Band sets require the defender to correctly guess which move Goodra is locking into, while mixed attacking sets with Life Orb and Assault Vest have the freedom to switch moves and break through defensive cores with its incredible coverage. For these reasons I believe Goodra is too overcentralizing for the tier and should be banned.

phantom: Ban Counters are non-existent and it’s neither lacking in bulk or speed to make it any easier to deal with. I’ve seen an increase in cores designated towards beating Goodra by switching in on resisted hits and using Protect to scout for its moves, and those teams fall apart if Goodra runs Life Orb. Aside from that... there really isn’t anything else that can deal with it. When the countermeasures are this concentrated and yet still fail, I think it goes to show just how ridiculous this mon is. That’s not even getting into the fact that Goodra can run less effective but still good physical sets that actually take advantage of Sap Sipper and can more easily break through special walls. It has to go.

We thus have an unanimous decision, and Goodra is now banned from SWSH RU, tagging The Immortal and Marty to remove our favourite blob dragon thing from the ladder, thank you!

EviGaro are ruining my reply game

 

[Pimflois]

very sad to hear about the Goodra ban. even more sad that the entire council voted ban. we cant keep banning every mon that is an offensive threat (goodra, pangoro, sygiliph, barbaracle) while the true cancer of the tier is the defensive balance cores. soon escavalier will be banned too every single game will be balance vs balance, 150+ turns.

think about what kinda of meta you want to play. is it that bad that Goodra is good enough to be the face of the tier? is that so much worse than aromatisse + mantine + steel type + ground type + scarfer vs aromatisse + steelix + gastrodon + defensive charizard + scarfer and whoever knocks more items and pp stalls opposing heal bell wins?

mark my words, balance vs balance every game, till people get so bored they just quit. future aint looking good :/

 

[cyanize]

balance will not ever be impossible to beat in this tier while subtox lazzle exists lmfao


no but seriously, we have absolutely no lack of balance breakers. we could ban the top 3 offensive mons literally right now and still be fine vs balance cores. going down the list: lo skewda, bewear, subtox zard, cb rajah, sd/cb gallade, cb/sd escav, specs/cm indeedee, cb pass, wisphex/specs rotom, every single lazzle, cm xatu, and vanilluxe are all balance breakers to various degrees, and that's not even including the breakers in nu that dont have the visibility but are still threats nonetheless - things like taunt boots sawk, vikavolt, abomasnow, sd rhydon, specs/sub haunter, and sd kingler come to mind. if anything banning goodra was just as much of a boon to offense since now you dont need silv fairy on 90% of your teams to keep goodra from claiming one literally every time it hits the field, and you can diversify your build by not only using more niche silv types but also by having better availability to the ones that are currently good (on top of the fact that silv fairy, while very good, requires a specific kind of support because its coverage is kinda dick, further homogenizing teams.) wish people would stop perpetuating this narrative any time an offensive mon gets banned and instead widen their perspective

 

[TONE]

What you should imagine is a scenario like:

2073. A scientist has created a panacea that can either wipe out all of humanity as we know it or cure those with incurable cancers. He is the only one in the world who knows how to make this panacea. The World Government is going to jail the scientist on Saturn and is thinking of executing him. The jailing decision has already caused worldwide outrage, and the outcome of this decision will decide on the future of humankind.

The scientist is Goodra, he has brought an incredible amount of support to teams with its typing, coverage, and being able to balance (in addition it is not an unmon like drampa). What would you do? He is a human like all of us and deserves to live. But what if him being alive means that life for everybody is going to spin out of control because he is the only one knowing the secret of breaking past supervillains like Aromatisse, Mantine, and Steelix might stop him to prevent the destruction of the world? This is a psychological test for all of us.

I would jail the scientist in RUBL. He may return in another suspect test, and might stay in RUBL forever. I don't mind executing him for RU's sake.

 

[Setendo]

I'm going to miss tearing Sun teams apart for free, but such is life.

And just so this isn't a one-liner, I've been messing around with Coalossal and it's ... okay. It's not Gigalith, that's for sure.

Coalossal @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Will-O-Wisp

This is the set I've been running on my webs team.

I like being able to condense Rapid Spin and Stealth rocks into the same slot, and being able to potentially punish U-turns and other stray hits with Flame Body is pretty nice. It's got some nice resistance too, and its bulk isn't half bad. It can naturally check stuff like Salazzle, Ninetales, Sillvally, and more regardless of EV spread. I've been running Specially Defensive to deal with Ninetales (and Goodra before it got banned) better, but Physically Defensive could be used to deal with Silvally more consistently.

But man does this thing have problems. I feel like it gets forced out by every other Pokemon. It also doesn't hit as hard as you'd like. In the future, I might drop either Rapid Spin or Stealth Rocks for Flamethrower, since mono-rock really doesn't cut it. Another issue is it's staying power, or rather its lack thereof. A lack of Leftovers means that you can get chipped by repeated hits more easily. But not running Boots means that you get chipped even faster by Stealth Rocks. I definitely recommend pairing it with a wish user.

So yeah. It's decent. Not stellar, and doesn't even come close to filling the shoes left behind by our rocky overlord, but it's usable.

 

[G-Luke]

very sad to hear about the Goodra ban. even more sad that the entire council voted ban. we cant keep banning every mon that is an offensive threat (goodra, pangoro, sygiliph, barbaracle) while the true cancer of the tier is the defensive balance cores. soon escavalier will be banned too every single game will be balance vs balance, 150+ turns.

think about what kinda of meta you want to play. is it that bad that Goodra is good enough to be the face of the tier? is that so much worse than aromatisse + mantine + steel type + ground type + scarfer vs aromatisse + steelix + gastrodon + defensive charizard + scarfer and whoever knocks more items and pp stalls opposing heal bell wins?

mark my words, balance vs balance every game, till people get so bored they just quit. future aint looking good :/

People were forced to run these cores specifically because of Goodra.

 

[Mavis]

time for another np post bc I love hearing myself talk

goodra is gone so it's time so let's talk about some BOMB ASS SPECIAL ATTACKERS

Ninetales @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Toxic
- Nasty Plot

this thing is an absolute beast right now. anything that usually switches in gets bopped by Toxic, and Tales's usual Fire/Grass coverage is as stellar as ever as it abuses its Silvally-beating Speed tier to nuke everything in sight. usually you can play it safer early game, throwing out Toxics to catch switches, and come late game once shit's worn down, Fire Blast does it's usual job of brutalizing everything. I slapped Toxic on the set over some cheeks coverage move simply because of how good this thing is at luring Mantine, everyone's de facto check to everything. partners very well with stuff that can take on it's usual answers (scarfers/shit that's faster), so physdef Growth Plume makes for an excellent partner. if you can get a growth up under sun and the opponent has no immediate Plume answers, usually issa wrap there and then. Plume also beats skewda/boltund/scarf passi and rilla/fuckall physical attackers y'all know the drill. it's plume vros this thing is the goat, :srank:

Drampa @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 140 HP / 252 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Blast

it's an even deadlier nuke than Goodra was, leveraging an apocalyptic Draco Meteor that levels even most Snorlax with a 2HKO after rocks, let alone it's complete brutality against the rest of the metagame at large that doesn't resist it. Hyper Voice is a nice, spammable secondary STAB, and the coverage is there to shore up various weak points, namely Mantine and Steels. I've also experimented with an alternate Leftovers Berserk set, as the passive recovery goes nicely with Drampa's bulk and typing, and allows you to more easily proc Berserk and start breaking. I chose Hyper Voice as the primary STAB over Draco because spatk drops are dookie. Dpulse is an option if you don't like getting cucked by Rhydon I guess. speed is for Plume btw.

might update this post with another mon or two tomorrow as I do some playtesting but unsure. goodra ban video coming soon!!

 

[kizi221]

in my personal opinion the banning of gigalith was unfair . it has sent this tier into a downward spiral of no return . gigalith was holding this tier together on the release until it was banned . maybe a suspect test could resolve all these bans before we become nu's replacement

 

[Hydreuxgon]

in my personal opinion the banning of gigalith was unfair . it has sent this tier into a downward spiral of no return . gigalith was holding this tier together on the release until it was banned . maybe a suspect test could resolve all these bans before we become nu's replacement

Gigalith moved to UU via usage. The only RU bans so far have been Barbaracle, Shiftry, Pangoro, Sigilyph, and Goodra. Because Smogon uses usage-based tiering, there is really nothing RU can do to get Gigalith back except hope that the UU ladder gets bored with Gigalith or something else becomes popular that sends Gigalith usage down.

 

[atomicllamas]

Looking at the stats Expulso posted for week 1 of RUPL and I decided to go through and breakdown individual Silvally type usage. The results were as follows
Silvally Dark 3-5 | 25% of total usage | 40% of silvally usages | 37.5% winrate
Silvally Steel 4-2 | 18.75% of total usage | 30% of silvally usages | 66.67% winrate
Silvally Fairy 2-2 | 12.5% of total usage | 20% of silvally usages | 50% winrate*
Unrevealed Silvally 1-0 | 3.125% of total usage | 5% of silvally usages | 100% winrate
Silvally Water 0-1 | 3.125% of total usage | 5% of silvally usages | 0% winrate

*sources tell me the unrevealed silvally was fairy in which case the numbers would be 15.625%, 25%, and 60% respectively

What I find most interesting about this is that Silvally Ghost - which is rated the highest of all Silvally forms in the VR, has 0 uses. Silvally Dark, which was ranked the lowest of the 3 that saw multiple uses, was the most highly used form, clearly in response to Indeedee-M which has become the most threatening breaker in the tier post Goodra ban. Silvally Steel is also a check to Indeedee but I imagine its usage was lowered by the fact it does not pair well with the primary rocker - Steelix, and additionally can be worn down by repeated Psychics. That being said Silvally Steel had the highest win rate of any Silvally form - I believe that this is due to Silvally steel offering more to the team other than just checking Indeedee but the sample size is low enough that the win-rate differences are probably insignificant. As for Silvally Fairy, which obviously does not offer much of an answer to Indeedee, it does benefit from being paired with it as Indeedee forces in all the steel type answers to Silv Fairy and chunks them, while it appreciates free entry via U-turn from Silvally Fairy (when Vileplume inevitably switches in). Sivally Fairy also offers a Knock Off immune Dark and U-turn resist which pairs wonderfully with Indeedee. I believe Silvally Ghost suffers from Indeedee's immunity to it's multi attack, its better at breaking down defensive cores as a SD sweeper than other Silvally forms (and isn't stopped by the opp slapping on scarf passimian, the best scarfer in the tier, in the same way silvally dark is), but not using the silv slot to shore up your defenses against the best Special Attacker in the tier is not plausible for many teams. Maybe it will see some kind of resurgence in week 2 but I would suspect its somewhat unlikely at this point to be anything more than a Silvally Water or Ground that has some niche but may not be the easiest to slot into your team.

 

[Expulso]

Sup RU!

In a similar vein to what atomicllamas did above, I figured I would go through the Week 2 RUPL usage stats I posted and discuss a meta trend from RUPL: the changing use of Stealth Rockers in SS RU.

(columns go Rank | Pokemon name | # of uses | usage % | win rate)
Week 1:
| 4 | Steelix | 15 | 46.88% | 53.33% |
| 8 | Rhydon | 8 | 25.00% | 62.50% |
| 11 | Mudsdale | 5 | 15.62% | 40.00% |

Week 2:
| 4 | Steelix | 12 | 37.50% | 25.00% |
| 7 | Mudsdale | 8 | 25.00% | 75.00% |
| 10 | Rhydon | 7 | 21.88% | 71.43% |

Every RUPL team had Stealth Rock (I think...?), and these Pokemon are by far the most common Stealth Rock users. Steelix was everywhere Week 1 and posted a respectable 53% winrate; Rhydon and Mudsdale also got decent usage, with Rhydon doing slightly better than Lix and Mudsdale doing slightly worse.

During Week 2, Steelix was used just a little bit less but had far, far worse outcomes, with only 3 of the 12 players who brought Steelix winning their matches. Why is that? Steelix is the most prominent steel-type (and thus, a mon commonly used as an answer to Indeedee). Indeedee is a top threat in SS RU, so teams using the super-powerful Indeedee likely built much of their strategy around weakening Steelix by chipping it with Mystical Fires or Specs Psychics from Indeedee, using misc. lures like Flamethrower Silvally-Steel, and bringing Stealth Rockers that could take advantage of it (namely, Rhydon and Mudsdale, which were very successful this week!).

As one of the strongest physical attackers in the tier with an unresisted STAB combo, Rhydon is extremely hard to switch into and seems nearly impossible to take advantage of. However, I wonder how we'll see the meta change to take advantage of Mudsdale. My week 2 RUPL team used Vikavolt and non-choiced Rotom as pivots, and both of them could freely come in on my opponent's Mudsdale and use Energy Ball/Wisp+Hex to force Mudsdale out, making it easy for them to Volt Switch and maintain momentum.

Pivots that can beat common Ground-types like Steelix, Rhydon and Mudsdale are very helpful, especially when the tier's lack of variety in Stealth Rockers means that almost every team will have one of these three mons. Hopefully, the tier shifts coming soon shake up this dynamic! (If not, Golurk, Piloswinee, and Drednaw could be cool alternatives for people curious to try a new Rocker)

 

[YoungsterJoey0914]

I Am Gonna Discuss about a Pokemon whose Strategy i’m Gonna Tell!

My Favorite Pokemon from the RU Tier is Accelgor! Accelgor’s a Super Fast Pokemon, and also

He’s So Fast almost all It’s moves Go First and His Yawn can Overwhelm Even a Darkrai and Force a Switch-out! So Watch Out!

And Also, I Have a Strategy! When you Run STAB Leech Life on Accelgor, then You Got Yourselves One Hell of A Life Stealer! It has a Life stealing Effect! and it has 70 Attack! 252 Atk EVs would make Accelgor Get the Job Done! Also I Decided to GO For Unburden Which Doubles it’s Speed when it has No Item so In Order to get Quick Fast, I'd Give Accelgor a Focus Sash! Bug Moves are Super Effective against Psychic Types, so Make Indeedee Your Target! or Celebi/Calyrex Cause they have a 4x Weakness to Bug-type Moves which Could Faint Either of These Pokemon in a Single Blow!!

Also With Spikes, I Can Make Other Pokemon get Hurt on Switch in! Combine it with Toxic Spikes, i Can hurt and Poison Them Making Quick Work of It's Opponents!

With Water Shuriken, A Multi Hit Move, When it Encounters F.E.A.R Pokemon, Water Shuriken can Help you Get Past the Pokemon with Relative Ease! Just Watch out Because Accelgor has 40 Defense and 60 S. Defense! It Might KO It in a Single Blow!

EDIT: If You want Accelgor to go Toe to Toe against a Zarude, Then Use STAB Leech Life. Zarude is 4x Weak to Bug so Better make Zarude/Shiftry Your Target! cause Leech Life or STAB Bug Buzz is sure To Defeat Both in One Fell Swoop!