Metagame NP: RU Stage 10 - All For You (Reuniclus Stays RU)

phantom

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We’re here with another suspect test after an overwhelming majority of the playerbase voted in favor of suspecting/banning Reuniclus. The council was largely divided on what to do tiering wise, with many not in favor of suspecting anything at all. Other council members were more so in favor of suspecting Necrozm or Xurkitree, but within the interests of the playerbase, the council agreed to suspect Reuniclus. Depending on how the post-suspect metagame develops, we may look into taking action on Necrozma or Xurkitree sometime after.

Reuniclus is being suspected for largely the same reason it was suspected in the last two gens: its Calm Mind set. With Magic Guard, instant recovery, and several viable coverage and item options, Reuniclus can pose as a massive threat with a set of CM / Recover / Psyshock / Focus Blast | Shadow Ball | Thunder. Despite just being broken off the CM set, this set has numerous variations, including the use of Life Orb, Leftovers, and Colbur Berry in its item slot that allow it to circumvent various checks and counters. Additionally, Reuniclus can utilize lesser seen techs such as Acid Armor and Stored Power to good effect. Reuniclus is also capable of taking advantage of many staple threats such as Registeel, Crobat, and Gastrodon without Clear Smog, in addition to most other passive defensive threats, even Dark-types such as pivot Incineroar and Umbreon. Reuniclus also has its Assault Vest set, which while not overpowered, does making dealing with Reuniclus and its wide variety of Calm Mind sets a bit of challenge. Many checks to Reuniclus‘ Calm Mind set are especially vulnerable to Knock Off.

However, despite its variation, Reuniclus cannot prepare for everything. Several offensive checks such as Obstagoon, Heracross, and various Poltergeist users such as Golurk are all strong checks capable of holding Reuniclus off. Additionally, RU has an incredible amount of Trick users capable of shutting down Reuniclus. Meanwhile, other checks such as Togekiss and Cosmic Power Metagross may falter to the right coverage moves such as Thunder and Shadow Ball, respectively, but will usually come out on top otherwise. The amount of counterplay available necessitates team support to alleviate these flaws, which itself may not be enough given the matchup.

What do you think? Does Reuniclus deserve its place in RUBL for the third gen in a row, or has the power creep finally caught up to it? Feel free to share your thoughts below.

GXEminimum games
7850
78.249
78.448
78.647
78.846
7945
79.244
79.443
79.642
79.841
8040
80.239
80.438
80.637
80.836
8135
81.234
81.433
81.632
81.831
8230

Suspect information:
  • There will be no draws allowed for any potential qualifiers. If you qualify with draws, your suspect requirements will not count and you will not be allowed to vote. There is no way to actively enforce ties to prevent abuse, so they will be disallowed. Use stall at your own risk.
  • All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! RU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "RURR (nickname)”. For example, RURR Regen or RURR FreeZydog
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
  • The suspect test will last for two weeks, ending on November 1st, at 11:59 PM EST.
Tagging Marty and Kris to set up the suspect ladder. Ty!
 
Hello Everyone, I have now finished the suspect so I can give my impressions on Reuniculus.

I don't have a fixed opinion about the suspect test yet, even if I think I'll go for a do not ban for the moment it's likely to change according to the arguments I'll see here I'll just talk about my main feeling about the Pokémon.

First of all, I found Reuniculus very strong in the tiers in general. It has too many viable sets even if the most common ones are AV and Calm mind it has too many options and it's impossible to counter it at 100%. Before the shifts I would have clearly considered it a ban but with the arrival of Nidoqueen in RU I still have a lot of questions about the ban.

The thing that makes me think about the no ban for the moment is that I'm afraid that a lot of Pokémon will be unmanageable if Reuniculus gets banned. Indeed in many Bulky offense, AV Reuniculus is a very good option to answer many current threats like Nidoqueen/Necrozma or Volcanion for example and I'm afraid about that if ever he gets banned the meta becomes much more bulky already that fat is quite strong. Even if it's not the only way, the Pokémon helps a lot against stall in general coupled with a guts user it allows to have a very good matchup without necessarily handicapping the team.

I clearly find Reuni strong but I don't know if it's banworthy. After that it's only an opinion after the suspect I haven't played much for a while so that's why my opinion can change according to what you say here.
 
The thing that makes me think about the no ban for the moment is that I'm afraid that a lot of Pokémon will be unmanageable if Reuniculus gets banned.
As I have advocated for many of times, this is a dangerous line of thought. This type of thinking is what led Scizor to not being banned in SM UU, leading it to the absolute dumpster fire it is now, among other things. Now I don't think that Reuniclus is on the same level as Scizor in this context, but I don't agree with this thinking when it comes to any suspect. If it's broken/unhealthy/restricting, then ban it. If not, then don't. Not an RU player, but dropping opinions is all I do on here anyways, so I wish you all a good evening.
 
First of all apology for my poor grammar / English
But I wanna give my 2 cents here
I played this tier very recently and I managed to get to the 1600 on the ladder but my experience still fresh so feel free to correct me
My first impression in the tier was “wow how I’m gonna stop this mon why it’s not suspected /ban”
Less than week it got suspected

My issue with runi is not the AV set thats an extremely good glue-ish mon in the tier
But the cm one and to less extended the iron defense /CM set
The cm one is extremely hard to stop if you wasn’t using HO and constantly pressure it with hard hits
But it decimate balance and stall
If you didn’t have haze milotic or you let your opponent toxic that it’s game over
Even gastro and Mantine are not reliable enough to haze/clear smog it cause the possibility of this mon running thunder /energy ball
Even umbreon is set up fodder for it at least you running taunt
Most offensive dark types also won’t faze it since it will run Colbur Berry and if your dark type weakened enough energy ball/thunder will take you out or focus blast right away will do
Guts boosted obstagoon do 50% max if your Berry still intact and cb grimmsnarl will do the same 54 max if your Berry still intact
I think this mon is extremely hard to check let alone counter
Before the shifts I would have clearly considered it a ban but with the arrival of Nidoqueen in RU I still have a lot of questions about the ban.
Nidoqueen ? I assume you mean shadow ball nidoqueen
Nidoqueen can’t touch the AV set and and the cm set even with shadow ball you can’t 2ohko it after +1
Modest Sludge wave to 40 something max

And shadow ball variant do 48% max and you die to one hit after +1
As I have advocated for many of times, this is a dangerous line of thought. This type of thinking is what led Scizor to not being banned in SM UU, leading it to the absolute dumpster fire it is now, among other things. Now I don't think that Reuniclus is on the same level as Scizor in this context, but I don't agree with this thinking when it comes to any suspect. If it's broken/unhealthy/restricting, then ban it. If not, then don't. Not an RU player, but dropping opinions is all I do on here anyways, so I wish you all a good evening.
I agree with this 100% I was one of the very few people who voted ban last gen and I couldn’t understand the logic nor the argument of broken mon keep another broken mons in check
 
I'm not sure if I'll obtain reqs to vote, but I feel inclined to pitch in my thoughts on the suspect, seeing as people maintain divided opinions about Reuni.

Reuniclus, although not outright broken, chokeholds the tier to an undesirable extent. As outlined in the OP, counterplay does exist in notable forms, with 'mons like Incineroar and Golurk providing a lot to teams in general; however, my main gripe with Reuniclus counterplay boils down to the fact that checks either possess a glaring vulnerability to getting worn down (either by Reuniclus, its teammates, or both)/outlasted by Reuniclus, have to run suboptimal moves/movesets mostly specialized to beat Reuniclus, or both. While the tier doesn't necessarily lack in Reuniclus checks, I believe that the aforementioned gripe, combined with the sheer amount of 'mons Reuni takes advantage of, contributes to its unhealthiness, both in the builder and in practice.

On paper, 'mons like SD Incineroar and Flame Orb Heracross should prove sufficient in keeping Reuni in check individually (meaning a single check per team, on paper, sounds sufficient). However, in practice, Reuniclus possesses so much leeway around its checks, that most of its checks have a tough time actually keeping it in check. A single correct prediction of nailing the likes of Obstagoon and Incineroar with Focus Blast on the switch leaves them too vulnerable to reliably switch in again or outright KO's them, never mind the fact that if Reuni has Colbur Berry, those two can't even meaningfully damage it/reliably revenge kill it. One can say the same about other checks in Chandelure and Heracross, who get absolutely blasted by Shadow Ball/Psyshock. Reuniclus can also reasonably go itemless to screw over Poltergeist users, and other checks, like Golisopod, risk losing to the CM+Iron Defense set, which, although rare, stands out as a very viable option for Reuni. Sets that serve to ease the Calm Mind Reuniclus match-up, like Pollen Puff NP Celebi and Cosmic Power Metagross, lack purpose outside of said match-up and/or have a significant opportunity cost associated with their use (feel free to disagree with me on this one; however, you're using NP Celebi without Earth Power, you're using a Gross that can't wallbreak/set rocks, etc.).

The abundance of and synergy that Knock Off, pivots, and Spikes users have with Reuniclus exacerbate its ability to outlast its checks, often leading to scenarios where a teammate easily brings Reuniclus in against one of the many 'mons it takes advantage of to set up a Calm Mind (i.e. a Noivern U-Turning on a Registeel, or a Raikou Volt Switching on a Roserade). Responses to Reuniclus's presence on the field are quite telegraphed, leaving the Reuniclus player at a clear advantage, seeing as they can aggressively double switch to their response to their opponent's Reuniclus check with less risk than a scenario where the opponent correctly predicts the double switching.

If I do end up getting reqs, I will cast a very clear BAN vote for Reuniclus.
 
I wasnt sure about this but after playing with it i could see how broken it can be.
:Necrozma: :Flygon: :Raikou: :Cloyster: :Mimikyu: :Reuniclus:
https://pokepast.es/65af6d64fe2d4bc7
The team is simple, the building process was 'stack 5 set up sweepers with few checks', i like Necrozma as a rock setter over any steel because Flygon is EVERYWHERE.
I was over 82 in 25 games or something, is really hard for anyone to keep a dark type alive after surviving the attack of the other 5, Necro and Mimi attract them early.
Reuni is just too bulky, just switch into a defensive mon and boost the defense you need for their answer and then it survive anything but super luck Absol but who plays that
The best replays i could get, took me a while to remember to save any
Not the best but reuni got acid armor and kill hera and umbreon cant do anything:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1440901602-cspfzdh7ts9u0oou2vwtveerw6elof3pw
now this is bullshit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1440905997-zt3cnrpwjtjhhz7wndfx9xi4y03xc49pw
 
(I accidentally sent a post without completing it :psycry:)

Ok I felt like this would be a good time to send my thoughts on Reuniclus, following the picture I sent in the Discord server a bit earlier. Regardless, Reuniclus is a force in the metagame, courtesy of its great special attack stat. However, what sets it apart from other threats is its bulk, for a Pokemon who deals out massive damage, Reuniclus is second to only Togekiss, who has reliable checks to last throughout a match, mostly :raikou: and :xurkitree:. This massive bulk is what sets Reuniclus apart, as unlike Togekiss, who is quite helpless against an opposing Raikou, it has moves to beat all of its "counters".

Personally, my favorite Reuniclus set is Assault Vest, which honestly, I think is a very healthy part of the metagame. It comes in, Knocks something off, sets FSight and leaves, Regenerating off the damage. I feel like this is the best set (up to debate though) and its a great game to game performer, but not overbearing in the slightest. For example, using Toxic on it puts it on a fast timer, and with :Roserade: and :Golisopod: around, the field is often littered with spikes without very tight defog or spin support, wearing down Reuniclus' longevity.

If Reuniclus' only set was this AV set, I'd have definitely said no ban, since it keeps dangerous Pokemon like :Nidoqueen:, :Xurkitree: and even :Necrozma: if packing Shadow ball. However, life isn't that simple, and neither is the metagame.

The magic guard sets make me (and I'm sure, several others) tear their hair out. They are some form of Calm Mind, similar to something you might see from Clefable in OU. CM + Recover + 2 attacks. This set has incredible game winning potential, and without a very hard hitting dark type like Banded :pangoro:, banded :golurk: and Guts :Heracross: Megahorn and Guts :obstagoon:. You won't be breaking it down that easy. Not to mention it A. outlasts them due to hazard immunity and Recover, and B. they risk death upon entry ala Focus Blast, (which Reuniclus seems to hit a suspicious amount of time). Here's the thing, Reuniclus has several ways around its checks. For example, Nasty Plot :Togekiss: might be general annoyance to the CM side with Air Slash flinches, but if it switches in on a Knock Off from the AV set, its on a fast ticking timer. Same goes to other Pokemon like Incineroar, while, despite its low attack, also chunks Golurk very hard (0 Atk Reuniclus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 120-142 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO).

And as it that wasn't enough, even if you know that its CM, even if the opponent literally tells you that its CM at the beginning of the battle, its still cancer to play around, considering how many variations that set has. Haze :Milotic: is quite safe at first but it won't be chunking Thunders very well, despite its high special bulk. Same thing goes for Clear Smog :Gastrodon: with Energy Ball. Obstagoon risks getting obliterated by Focus Blast on switch-in, Golurk gets mauled by Shadow Ball and Heracross can't switch in at all consistently. Hell, you can even go itemless to weaken Knock Offs and wall Golurk instead of being walled by it, though Colbur berry is a solid option, to weaken Knock Offs furthur. And if you are really afraid of opposing offence breaking you down, the most insane and hardcore trolly and stupid set is there. Acid Armour. Once you use 1 Acid Armour, you are nigh unbreakable on the physical end, while Calm Mind does its job of juicing up the special side and Recover for recovery. Stored Power is a devastating STAB move too, at that. But wait, isn't this walled by dark types completely? Well, yes but actually no. While this cannot hit dark types at all, the high PP of moves like Calm Mind and Acid Armour means that you'll generally win out the PP war.. And to give an idea of how bulky it gets post Acid Armour.
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Poltergeist vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 248-294 (58.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 248-294 (58.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If they come in on a Acid Armour, Reuniclus wins the MU easily by acid armouring AGAIN and recovering off the damage.

Hell, while I don't reccomend it, nor is it a good set, I've actually had some fun with a offensive Trick Room set with 3 attacks and life orb. A massive surprise for offensive teams who can generally play around Reuniclus by having their own speed turned against them.

And now, at its conclusion, I feel like Reuniclus should be banned. I don't care if other threats become broken without it here, I don't want something to be in the tier against whom often my only counterplay is hoping I flinch it enough, as well as something who can not only come in again and again, have no reliable switch-ins and can easily beat its checks.
 

EviGaro

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Posting reqs team here cause why not: https://pokepast.es/10e5b2565b77134c

Struggled a bit using absolute jank rofl, so just ended up picking that. OTR Reuniclus has barely ever been explored in this metagame I feel, sure you'll see it on dedicated Trick Room teams once in a while during laddering but it really isn't much, yet considering the ridiculous amount of HO teams I faced it ended up being extremely useful, since countering this with hazards and knock support becomes nearly impossible. However, that's obviously a flawed set on other levels too, since it means Reuniclus will have a hard time actually being a switch to the metagame. You can fit recover somewhere, but dropping Shadow Ball in my experience is not worth it.

But anyway, I don't really think the OTR set is broken, nor is the AV set, obviously... But they have some potential of turning around games that the CM would struggle a bit with. And to me that's where I am super skeptical of Reuniclus being banworthy, because it's really not unlikely while building that you will end up with solid answers to it. Gen 8, for the most part, has shown to be a far more specialized gen, where some mons become absurd because of one distinct quality that allows them to snowball and force awkward teambuilding choices. Reuniclus usually at some point in RU ends up forcing that latter, but in practice this gen it kinda doesn't. If you have a strong Reuniclus check, chances are that 1- your check will be viable vs all kinds of Reuniclus you will encounter and 2- that check will always pull its weight against the tier as a whole. As in, strong dark types, strong ghost types, strong bugs, pivoters that in theory Reuniclus can come in damage wise, setup mons that force it to attack very quickly otherwise it gets run through without much care.... A lot of the tier is counterintuitive to how people want to play their Reuniclus. And all of this isn't even largely because Reuniclus itself is that amazing, although it still is a top mon, but it's just the nature of the tier. If you don't boost, don't hit stupid hard or don't have a pivoting move, your chances of being deadweight are fairly considerable. I've seen people talking about balance struggling the most to handle it, and it's true, but balance has been in a such a dreadful state for almost the entire gen, requiring a super specific mon - now usually Umbreon - to function decently, and it's not necessarily an issue with the actual mons in the tier. It's that we don't get the amazing defensive pivots other tiers above need and the gen simply is wired to play in a specific direction and those largely hit balance the most.

Rambling a bit here, but those issues that balance face actually are a problem for Reuniclus as well. Reuniclus handles balance extremely effectively because it historically outlasts it, but if balance is not great irrespective of Reuniclus, the issues also affect it. Reuniclus has a really bad defensive typing that is saved by great bulk, but the number of things it will actually abuse on BO / HO are very small, and often enough these mons if put on the BO archetype are required to run pivoting options, like Crobat / Milotic / P2 / Cobalion if not SD / Celebi if not NP / Xatu / Flygon if not DD. Again, this doesn't favour Reuniclus, but it's not at fault for this, it's simply that you will never be able to afford these mons giving stupid free turns or you can't afford to lose a guessing game. Offensively, it's much better because it will hit almost everything with relatively few moves, but it also means that it's fairly straightforward to handle, even if you have to fit at least one solid answer.

Adding one other thing about the solid answers, that straightforwardness is actually something I appreciate, because checking Reuniclus is simply a lot easier than checking other boosting Psychics. Necrozma is far, far more annoying, because it boosts in so many ways and will always have a stupid stab move couple with near universal coverage. Adding SD, DD, Meteor Beam and even Weakness Policy to a still extremely bulky mon is far more interesting than simply the guaranteed status immunity in this meta imo, and also ends up with having one mon that will guarantee do the trick vs it (Umbreon) otherwise you're hard hoping it's not the right set. Metagross with the Cosmic Power set has more limitations because rest, but it also has super restricted counterplay. It turns the tables on harder hitting dark types with CP into Body Press. It's fast enough to be annoying, and has matchups it cleanly wins extremely easily. Are those suspect worthy? I'm not entirely sure, but at worst I would put them in the same category as Reuniclus is, you're required to hit them stupid hard fast enough otherwise it snowballs super easily, but imo they have a bit more versatility about them. That's arguable though. And I'm not even gonna go into ghosts, like seriously Specs Chandelure needs three moves to be extremely stupid like ok w/e

Anyway, Reuniclus is very very good, it's in the top tier in a list of mons that I feel you are required to have dedicated answers to on basically any good RU team, but it's definitely not the only one, and imo I don't see how it's the culprit for the metagame being the way it is, because I don't think it actually likes the metagame being the way it is either. Like Togekiss, it's saved by it just being an exceptional mon that you need to answer with dedication, but once you do it's very hard for it to completely flip that on its head to bully through. And imo Togekiss is still better at doing that but that ship might have sailed kek
 

Feliburn

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Heya! So it's been a while since the results of the suspect test, and I wanted to drop a couple of thoughts on the meta, and how it's progressing.

So first I wanna talk about 2 mons that have been picking up in SCL, and have been amazing discoveries for the meta:


Guzzlord started seeing the light at the beginning of the tour. The most common set was Knock Off + Dragon Tail, as an emergency Reuniclus check I assume, and phazing in general. I've been personally using protect + 3 attacks, and it's been great. It's the best Chandelure answer I've used so far, and it's also a very strong Necrozma / Reuni check (if Necro is CM). Plus it can just spam Knock Off and remove boots from a lot of mons like Togekiss, or leftovers from the fat waters. It's such a great fit for BO teams due to it feeling like both an offensive and defensive dark type.


The god Jelli is back. I'm absolutely in love with it. I use wisp + hex + taunt, this allows me to prevent mons like Umbreon and Vaporeon from spamming wishes, block Reuniclus from setting up, and just spam passive damage dealing wisps to everything. It's such a solid fit in general due to how the meta is right now. My main issue is how much I feel that I need wisp + hex, that Jelli basically becomes Incineroar + Obstagoon food.


Speaking of the gooner... This mon is so strong and annoying. Not a lot can switch into the guts boosted coverage it has. The best I can think if is Cobalion and like Diancie, 2 mons with no way of recovery once they get knocked off. Not like Obstagoon can be called a long lasting pokemon either, but if you face Switcheroo and it gets Leftovers, it becomes an unkillable demon. Obstruct variants are also annoying for teams that rely on Golisopod to revenge kill it. IMO one of the best breakers we have atm.


This fucking pokemon is back. It was bound to happen the moment Zarude left the tier, I'm just sad it happened. Be it CroCune or VinCune, this mon has been seeing a lot of usage lately. Not everybody is prepared to beat a boosted Suicune lately, and mons like Roserade are basically praying for crits once Suicune gets a couple of boosts. Celebi (a favorite of mine rn but not worth talking about) is a very decent check if people wanna experiment that route.


How could I talk about demonic set up mons without mentioning demon gross. The cosmic power + body press + meteor mash + rest set has been claiming so many lives, that it's impossible not to fear this mon. It is SO hard to beat, Jellicent being the best answer I could think of. Other sets like Choice Band are ok on this mon, but demon gross is a massive threat that every top player should prep for.

These are the mons I wanted to cover. There are probably other mons worth talking about, but I'll let other people chip in on what they think about the meta.

Overall, I'm super happy with the recent development, so many fun mons are picking up usage and it's great. Thanks for reading!
 

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