Metagame NP: RU Stage 10: Levels (Entei Unbanned)

[phantom]

With the most recent wave of quick bans, the council has decided to reexamine one of the bans via a public suspect test.

Entei Suspect Test

​

Entei has recently been quick banned, but will reintroduced into the tier for qualified users to vote on whether or not it should be allowed back in RU. As always, if you'd like to see some in-depth reasoning as to why this Pokemon is being suspected, there is a paragraph written below about why Entei in particular was chosen. The suspect test will last roughly 10 days, and the deadline will be 11:59 PM EST on the 4th of May, assuming the ladder is up the next day. The requirements for this suspect will be a minimum 80 GXE and a minimum of 35 games played. Do not attempt to game the system, you will be infracted the moment you are caught.

Entei Reasoning

Entei is being retested because while it is an inherently threatening Pokemon, it possesses multiple flaws that limits its potential as an attacker that makes its status as a broken Pokemon arguable. While Sacred Fire burns are difficult to circumvent for certain Fire resists, there are several Water-types in the tier capable of stopping Entei cold even when burned, such as Milotic, and others capable of checking it several times such as Mega Blastoise. In addition, it's poor coverage options and predictability limits its ability to circumvent certain checks and counters without either heavy guesswork or support. Its lack of resists, weakness to Stealth Rock, and vulnerability to status also makes it possible to limit Entei's switch-ins throughout a given match and prevent it from freely coming in and using Sacred Fire.

NP song:

tagging The Immortal for a suspect ladder. Please unban Entei for the suspect ladder and reset the ladder. Thank you!

This thread will stay locked for the first 48 hours of the suspect to allow people some time to play on the ladder and to properly formulate their opinions. Keep in mind this thread is to remain a discussion thread when opened, avoid one liners and shit posts.

 

[phantom]

Shaymin will receive the move celebrate via an event starting today! When used with normalium z, it gives it a +1 boost to each stat.

This will not change the course of the suspect; however, it’s something notable you might soon see while laddering.

 

[Scuba Diver]

OU player popping in, does anyone care to comment on Shaymin's new move?

 

[Nat]

OU player popping in, does anyone care to comment on Shaymin's new move?

Hey, it's an interesting question you propose that a lot of people have different takes on. For starters, the set thrives vs more offensive builds I feel, or otherwise lategame vs more balanced builds. Having base 100 stats across the board, shaymin can be very annoying to kill once it has the boosts from celebrate. This imo is what makes it good vs weakened balance. As far as vsing offense, +1 seed flare while outspeeding anything lacking priority can be a nightmare for a more offensive team lacking bulk. That being said, I still prefer my set of seed flare-z + synthesis, as I feel sustainability w/ shaymin is a must atm, and z-flare hits hard enough to be a real game changer. You can opt for recovery on z-celebrate shaymin, though having only 2 attacks can be pretty limiting. If there's anything to take away it's that z-celebrate shaymin isn't the end-all-be-all set imo. It has definite viability though doesn't overshadow either the z-flare w/ synth set or even the leech seed sub set, which is very very annoying to balance in its own way. Hope this helped!


I guess I should also use this post to lightly discuss my thoughts on Entei now that i've finished the suspect. While I had reservations about how healthy it would be, I tried to have an open mind about Entei going into the suspect, utilizing it some games and being fortunate enough to vs it in others. After finishing this suspect I can say for sure I feel it's unhealthy for the meta and something I'd like to keep banned. Decent natural bulk w/ a stab that rips through any team lacking a defensive water type is rlly unsettling. 50% burn as many have discussed cripples any likely switch-in not named Milotic. I'm not going to write a full indepth post about it, just wanted to add my brief thoughts since the vote is coming up and all.

 

[hmsa2012]

As an primary OU player, I'm really excited to partake in a suspect test with the new reqs implemented. I think the new reqs are a bit better than what Smogon had traditionally done in the past. OU hasn't had a suspect test for a while, so that's probably why I'm here lol

That being said, I have a few thoughts on Entei so far in my ladder journey. Initially, I was on the fence about Entei's presence being in RU. As stated a few time, there are prominent walls that can decently take on Entei (particularly the Choice Banded set) such as Milotic, Mega Blastoise, and Rhyperior (barring burns).

However, what makes Entei a major threat in RU is team composition. As soon as its teammates get rid of Entei's check and counters, it pretty much clicks Sacred Fire to clean opposing teams. Majority of offensive/balance teams I have faced so far have a tough time switching into Sacred Fires. It can also pick off weakened mons with E-Speed, which makes Entei even more broken in RU. With a great attack stat and good speed tier, Entei is an elite offensive threat in RU.

I noticed that Entei is great in a Fire-Grass-Electric core with some sort of pivot (Rotom-H or Rotom-C comes to mind) that can allow a team to wear down checks an counters (especially if hazard are up), which makes Entei's job of sweeping/cleaning easier.

I hope I reach the finish line, but as far as the collective thoughts of others and what I have noticed in the ladder so far, I believe that Entei is broken and should not be allowed in RU, due to its amazing offensive capabilities and limited switch in options that can be easily punished.

 

[DohIMissed]

I'm not particularly experienced with RU, so take my post with a grain of salt. I tried out Entei for a bit, and even though it's got no solid answer to a lot of bulky waters, it's power to rip the rest of the metagame apart with a stab 100 bp fire move with a 50% burn chance. And even though it's weak to rocks, hazard removal is everywhere, so it's not hard to fix that problem. Its only hard counters are the bulky waters (special mention to Milotic and Araquanid due to them not minding the burn from sacred fire at all because of marvel scale, or completely preventing the burn, respectively), and the rest of its "switch ins" still have to be really afraid of the burn chance on sacred fire or even some of its coverage options, albeit the few they are.

However, what makes Entei a major threat in RU is team composition. As soon as its teammates get rid of Entei's check and counters, it pretty much clicks Sacred Fire to clean opposing teams. Majority of offensive/balance teams I have faced so far have a tough time switching into Sacred Fires. It can also pick off weakened mons with E-Speed, which makes Entei even more broken in RU. With a great attack stat and good speed tier, Entei is an elite offensive threat in RU.

I 100% agree. Even though it requires some team support to be fully effective, it's a monster that becomes way too hard to stop. Especially when that team support only requires a couple of team slots.
In conclusion, it should remain RUBL due to the difficulty to properly check it.

 

[Moon]

Sad to not see much discussion, but it is exam season. Was hoping to post some good replays but I didn't like building around entei and it didn't do much to the team I used to get reqs. Instead, I'll touch on the effect entei has on teambuilding when considering offensive teams. The important things to note about entei are its decent speed tier and very limited switch-ins, though it also has solid bulk and revenge killing potential. (Edit: I'm not trying to say these things make entei broken or not broken, rather just trying to provide relevant information about entei's performance vs offense)
Common mons seen on offense that entei outspeeds include

. There are several much slower mons that can also be seen on offensive steams such as doublade, escavalier, etc. This speed tier means it will generally get at least a few turns to click sacred fire freely even against offense.

Mega Blastoise is the best offensive check to entei, however, a bulkier spread of 168 hp must be used to guarantee avoiding the 2hko from flare blitz after rocks. A spread of 168 HP / 136 SpA / 204 Spe Modest, can be used to reach this hp benchmark while outspeeding jolly bewear. Alternatively, modest with max spa and very little speed can be used. Mega blastoise can generally switch in to entei only once, but can continue to check it throughout a match, though this becomes more difficult if it gets burned.

blastoise vs entei

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 126-149 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Other offensive checks include

. Rhyperior dislikes getting burned, but can still function. Mega ampharos and rotom-H can tank it's fire type attacks and pivot to a faster mon, though this is shaky especially with rocks up. Noivern can switch in to a fire type move and kill with z-move if entei has taken any damage. Apart from this, offense must often rely on revenge killing with mons such as

that can not afford to risk being burned.
Calcs provided to give an idea of entei's bulk

bulky boi

252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 194-230 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 181-214 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 240-284 (64.6 - 76.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 206-244 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Banded espeed also provides significant threat to revenge kill against offense

espeed calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 199-235 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-10%: 175-206 (70.2 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 187-221 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The question to voters imo is whether or not Mega Blastoise and a few other mons plus revenge killing gives offense a healthy amount of counterplay against entei from a teambuilding perspective. I'm leaning towards no.

 

[dodmen]

Milotic, Snorlax (Rest or Facade), Mega Ampharos, Rhyperior, Dragalge, Mega Blastoise. Of these, only the latter three even care about being burned, but all can still easily function while burned. There are also less common Pokemon that should be seeing more usage. Diancie doesn't care about anything Entei can do (it can't afford to drop any move for Iron Head), and it checks birds, sets rocks, and has Heal Bell. Slowbro/Slowking are bulky waters that work better on offensive teams than Milotic (they can actually punish switchins with decently powered Psychic/Fire Blast or Toxic) and can check strong attackers outside of Entei as well. Gigalith is outclassed mostly, but can work too.

This is a pretty big list of commonly used Pokemon that you don't have to go out of your way to put on your team; most of your teams should already have at least one of these mons or you're weak to already-existing threats like Moltres, Noivern, and Ninetales (the latter of which can even bust through like half of these).

Hell, even Gligar can at least pivot into Entei (though it's usually paired with a Water type anyway) - 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 115-136 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

Stuff like Moltres, Rotom-H, Noivern, and Kingdra can work too, especially if your Entei-weak Pokemon (like Bronzong, Shaymin, Escavalier) carries Protect, which many of them commonly do. If all this isn't enough offensive counterplay (everything I've listed so far fits well on offensive teams and doesn't include revenge killers that should never switch directly in), then I don't know what is.

ESpeed is definitely useful for picking off frail/fast threats, but can hardly be considered broken. Everything it revenge kills besides like Salazzle needs chip or multiple hazards to die to it, locking into ESpeed gives a lot of things room to setup or fire off strong attacks, and obviously it won't be straight up sweeping anything. It's just a useful and somewhat risky tool, not something that makes Entei broken.

Like a lot of offensive Pokemon, Entei isn't something that can come onto the field a million times and burn everything until it's in Flare Blitz / Espeed range. Entei is rocks weak, usually has to pivot in against a Moonblast / Grass move / Toxic user / strong hit from shit like Escav and Aboma, and has both offensive and defensive counterplay that already exists in the current metagame. Like all suspects, you have to look at it outside the window of "it has a strong STAB move that can burn, priority, and is pretty bulky and pretty fast".

 

[Lunar.]

The main concern I've seen with Entei is the fact that people can abuse Drapion trap with it. In my testing I hadn't played many Enteis, and when I did they were fairly simple to deal with if rocks got up or as long as I kept my checks to it healthy, which you should if you see one on the opposing team. I believe dodmen made great points that there are multiple ways to deal with Entei and they aren't just random pokemon that only function with that one role.

I have seen a complaint being that Milotic would just run the format again, but as dodmen mentioned I don't believe this would be the case with several other answers. Moon mentioned the idea of running a bulkier Blastoise too which honestly was one of the harder things to deal with in the current meta.

I like Entei in the meta personally, but take that lightly as I have not played this tier much besides a little testing for spl and these suspect matches. However, from both of my time frames of taking part in this format I found that Entei allowed for more unique strategies of dealing the current metagame and honestly RU just felt slightly more stable with the threat of it around.

 

[MrAldo]

After some thoughts and seeing it in action this mon is way too restricting and rather dumb. Im sorry but I really dont believe it is the best idea to keep it around.

Offensive counterplay? Lets talk about this for a second and understand how little actual counterplay there is to this thing on offensive teams. Rock types like Rhyperior and Tyrantrum become way more useless than they can be throughout the match since the lack of offensive presence means even more things can pivot into them, reducing their offensive presence considerably. Yes, they still can do their thing but lets take into account sets like scarf tyrantrum... that becomes useless while burn and a burned Rhyperior offers little more to a team than something that can suicide rocks which is workable but it is dumb how easily that can be nullified by pivoting into something it should be able to! It will only do more than that if it packs toxic which it is something they can generally run but isnt the only good option it can run. That leaves Dragalge, Noivern, and Mega Ampharos.

Noivern and Dragalge takes way too much from Sacred Fire unless you are running phys def Dragalge for some reason

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 135-159 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 148-174 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

Unless you are bulky noivern which is a pretty fine set on its own right but thats where the real problem lies. Why you should be forced to be running bulky stuff as switch-ins on offensive team to exclusively one thing? Bulky Noivern is excellent as said and fit on a variety of teams but why I should be punished for running an offensive set on Noivern while it is objectively really good? Same with Dragalge. I guess phys def dragalge is the wave?

That leaves Mega Ampharos as the one that can be used offensively and thankfully it has enough natural bulk to takes 2 even after rocks. And Dragalge isnt commonly used... at all.

Rotom-Heat and Moltres risk getting bopped by stone edge and rotom-heat cant even do significant damage so it can safely spam sacred fire with little to no risk. Ok you hard switch rotom-heat into the damn sacred fire and it takes 48 min if max hp only, then it dies to the next one. I guess sub roost moltres does the trick but thats just 1 set, again.

Mega Blastoise needs to be running a bulky set and slowking isnt bulky enough to be switching into it since sacred fire 3hko worst come to worst and scald doesnt even ko back so it can go for 3 sacred fires then risk burning something else. Mega Blastoise isnt something I like being ran as bulky imo, this is personal preferencen mainly, but Diancie and Rest Mega Blastoise keep Entei pretty well at bay while remaining viable so maybe thats good? Yes, but thats just one thing. And Slowbro sucks. Mon being viable for just one mon around when other bulky waters can do similar things without sacrificing much momentum (my opinion at least).

This mon has so little risk for so much of a reward to even be around. Counterplay exists but it really sets you back to play on the defensive while the Entei user can just proceed to spam sacred fire in the early game, the few defensive things that switch unscathed either invite a grass type to come in and do whatever or something like a Doublade or Fighting type or do something disastrous. And you are realistically never clicking espeed outside of late game cleaning scenarios. Why wont the entei be spamming sacred fire on the first place? The low pp is the only issue.

Maybe I can try to do an all nighter for REQS but if I do think the best decision is to ban this thing. It is even better on practice than on paper.

Just sharing my opinion on the matter, I invite every voter to vote responsibly on what they truly believe about the suspect in question.

Cheers!

 

[dodmen]

Ok, let me make this more concise.

1. You have Milotic, Snorlax, Rhyperior, Jellicent, Diancie, Slowbro, and Slowking which can switch into Entei 100% of the time.

All of these Pokemon can fit on bulky offense. Of these, only Rhyperior even remotely cares about being burned but it still counters entei and can set rocks even if burned. No idea why you said Slowbro sucks, it's a great pivot on offensive teams which can struggle with stuff like Zygarde, and unlike Milotic, does not give free switchins to stuff like Roserade, does not give free SDs to Toxicroak/Virizion, does not rely on Scald burns to kill Bewear/Escavalier. Slowking does better against special attackers but still counters Entei easily (and I am talking about Slack Off sets, although AV Slowking taking 90% off an Entei doesn't sound like a bad scenario to me either). No idea why you ignored diancie too since it's an excellent Pokemon.

2. Offensively, Kingdra, Noivern, Mega Ampharos, Mega Blastoise and Dragalge with some bulk, Roost Moltres, and bulky Rotom H which can all switch into Sacred Fire if needed. None of these care about staying in to take a burn either.

Like I said earlier, if you don't have a Pokemon from these two lists already, you are probably already losing a mon every time Moltres and others come in. While things like Scarf Tyrantrum and Flygon can pivot into Moltres and Ninetales more safely than they can into Entei, they can also bust through their respective checks and counters way more easily than entei can.

3. There are a ton of revenge killing options: Tyrantrum, Flygon, Zygarde, etc and if Entei has taken even one round of rocks, that's already in range of more stuff like Roserade Yanmega and so forth.

For a comparison, here's a list of switchins to Mega Blastoise for bulky offense: Milotic. Is Mega Blastoise broken? No, because to deal with it, offensive teams can chip it down with hazards, Toxic from bronzong/uturn from Gligar, EQs on the switch from Steelix/Rhyperior. They can pivot their grasses in at the risk of eating an Ice Beam for 70%, but it still works. They will probably lose a mon as it eats repeated hits and fires off its attacks. That's how Pokemon works.

 

[col49]

ayo, i wasn't keen on posting but feel as though dodmen v.the world is less than ideal as a dnb vote for entei myself. i'm of the mind that entei is an entirely balanced presence in this metagame and has grown disproportionate only through the average player's fear of burn.

weighing every prerequisite to obtaining a free switch for entei in application, between hazard control, the necessity to switch into either a pokemon that chunks it for upwards of half (escavalier) or maintains the ability to follow-up and ko if it isn't the set you were anticipating (rose / min), you would figure this suspect would if anything have gotten folks clamouring over a ninetales ban instead, who circumvents every check past dragalgae and gigalith with much greater ease, is afforded the + spe nature to play into grasses that much better, and can now even further throw odds into the equation of playing noivern in, yet here we are. this to me reads solely as folks unwilling to make the very minor adjustments to acclimate to a very balanced, and might i argue even a little unwieldy new addition to the tier.

in doing a quick run-over of rupl stats for another point i sought to touch on, i was very much impressed by the number of rhyperior / blastoise / noivern teams being utilized thus far, a fairly straightforward conglomerate of 'mons developed entirely separate of entei as a pokemon that completely dead it in application. this to me was a perfect snapshot of just how snuggly entei fits into the tier, as we sit in a place where folks coincidentally build in such a way that hard checks it so well. mind, this is more anecdotal in nature and not meant to be taken as a primary point of contention here, but when folks are off hyperbolizing just how back-breaking an only mildly fast pokemon that draws it's most pervasive attributes from an 8 pp move, i find it important to drag it down to a place like that.

more than anything i feel the conversation is burdened by stigma, with upteen responses to entei being thrown under the rug by the merit of being 'unsets' or 'bad', so as a "main" with at least a little credibility left to my name allow me a moment to clarify: diancie is good, slowbro is very good, dragalgae is amazing and benefits enormously from investing in defense, slack off slowking is very good, rest snorlax is still rather good. just because they have at some point been deemed less than adequate at some point in the x months the metagame has functioned does not mean they continue to do so ad infinum. alomomola had a stigma as a terrible ladder noob pick in the bw ru community that carried into it's access to regenerator, the public consensus can and should always been taken under reevaluation. to give a more pertinent example, i feel there is some cognative dissonance in regards to bulky blastoise at this time, with many players being unwilling to disavow the max / max spread due to the presence of queen and gatr. however, this prompts the question: is this really worth it anymore? having looked to the rupl replays, i noted queen was utilized a paltry 8.3% of the time, with a handful of 16 game weeks not seeing one use throughout. does it not make sense for these pokemon to adapt, not only to entei but the metagame at large? even queen's role itself has changed in this time, as it's induction proceeded the boon of gardevoir and tyrantrum, which found a detraction in the value of its speed and a significant uptick in its defensive utility. i'll admit to being partially at fault for not voicing my concerns at some earlier juncture, but to me timid queen and blastoise both feel so terribly antiquated, and now more than ever we are presented with this opportunity to redefine that status quo. in fact, blastoise bulky offenses to me as perhaps the most significant sources of pro-entei bans, as their choice to omit a conventional bulky water leaves them the more susceptible to long-term entei battering, so taking this stance now to me even further pushes entei into dnb territory.

i feel as though dodmen has adequately put across most of my feelings, but hopefully something could be gleaned from my comments as well. don't look at this suspect as a time to double down on year-old standards, but rather one to reassess how you build and try something new. i guarantee this tier is overwhelmingly well-equipped to deal with this pokemon.

 

[EviGaro]

I don't really have much to add in regards to Entei, I honestly don't feel very strongly about that mon either way, from my playing it's been a sort of nuisance, but quite easy to take advantage of at times... More on that later.

I absolutely agree with col on one point he makes, or at least my reading of his argument, about the state of the tier versus the rigidity with which we view the tier as it is. MegaToise is a really good example of this, not only is the speedy set largely obsolete with regards as to what is being used, it's also looking obsolete as to why it's being used. A lot of the MegaToises you see seek to pivot into far slower threats, take advantage of its bulk to check some offensive threats, and use that considerable offence to keep defensive mons at bay while allowing for semi-free removal. But hardly any of this requires the max speed timid spread, if anything, it impedes it from at least one of those key roles because it get chipped and threatened by faster mons even more. And with regards to Entei, obviously like col said, the usage of that spread scares you into panic checks for it whereas you probably have a decent one right there that is being misused.

But it's not as if changing our habits on MegaToise really changes everything, but similarly, people forget about the plethora of waters we have in this tier as if the argument when it comes to selection is Blastoise versus Milotic. Both dodmen and col are correct: stuff like Slowbro, Kingdra, Slowking are actually really good, and not just for Entei. Slowbro pivots quite well into threatening physical attackers, and while the potential of z-moves is troublesome, it's quite literally the same issue for all bulky waters, but this one doesn't actually need to spam recovery and can even threaten dangerous grasses and fightings in a way that Milotic simply cannot with the bulky set. Kingdra was almost always seen as a Milo countermeasure, but Entei gives it a certain freedom to hurt that archetype with how spammable those stabs are and how difficult they are to counteract effecitvely. Slowking has seen a resurgence of boosting sets, particularly NP, which comes with recovery unlike the too rigid AV set, that while still good, also seems to underperform in the current meta. And I would honestly add Vaporeon to this: it's the only wishpasser that semi reliably heals mainstays on this kind of balance, Florges doesn't provide enough health, Audino is extremely passive and Umbreon struggles with covering steel's weak points, that latter point has almost always been the issue of stall in the current generation, but is even more noticeable when you try to push for a more offensive build. Oh, and we haven't mentioned Barbaracle yet!

That also kinda bring me to my main concern, in that while I share the annoyance for a move as lottery inducing as Sacred Fire, people dramatize 1 - it's spammability and 2 - Entei's coverage. Something like Barbaracle absolutely takes advantage of Entei to setup, regardless of the potential burn chance. I feel as if stopping all discussions before it begins doesn't really reflect how games can go, and how regardless of the high chance of burn, the Entei user has roughly the same dilemma as someone trying to take advantage of the lock into Sacred Fire, that game doesn't feel as onesided to me as it seems to be in this thread, and I'd be curious to see a more open discussion about playing with those odds and the inherent risk to it. To me, Sacred Fire is a more haxy, but far less reliable Thousand Arrows in terms of actual considerations in a game. Consider that CB Thousand Arrows has almost entirely by itself made DD Zydog a very serious threat in the current meta, something that Entei could only dream of due to its rigidity and lack of decisive boosting. Second point is coverage. Entei may be able to throw a Tantrum now, that still is a 75 bp move that can be exploited relatively easily. Same with Stone Edge, which gives free setups to almost all fighters or an ability to come in and trade with almost any member on the Entei team. Espeed is good, but significantly risky as well, it's a ridiculously weak move and some of the threats looking to exploit it - Barb, RP TTrum - won't fall over to it the next time you are coming in.

... I know I said I don't particularly care for it, but I probably care for the discussion a bit more, I guess? I don't feel like Entei has been given a very fair shot in this thread, and from the discussions I had with people remembering it from RU Alpha, it sometimes honestly felt like we were remembering two widely different metagames. But overall, if Entei manages to makes us consider a variety of mons that we weren't thinking of in our teambuilding and having those mons be successful in the current metagame... I would honestly consider that a good thing.

 

[Ktütverde]

Hello, I just would like to make a post as someone who hasn't played RU a lot yet, but is trying to build and play better in a very unique tier where the offensive pressure is pretty high.

What I think makes entei unhealthy for the tier is its stats and sacred fire. Judging a poke on the sole basis of base stats is stupid , but just compare it with the rest of RU. It outspeeds almost any non scarfer Pokémon and is even able to be adamant without hindering its offensive pressure. It can ohko or 2hko most of the tier , but unlike pangoro or bewear, it usually moves first which makes it way more terrifying. It's great bulk protects it from gardevoir scarf while flygon has to lock itself into EQ.

But the worst to me is how Entei is self-sufficient. It doesn't fear anything except bulky waters. For example I paired it with roserade and most battles became a bloodshed with the opponents unable to gain momentum Vs entei, since the Banded damage+burns force sacking or recovering every turn . Whatever you do Vs entei, you lose momentum and this shows how unhealthy it is given it isn't slow , is splashable (just use Defog + an electric /grass mon ) and is low cost high reward mon. Even though you hold entei in check you get crippled and lose momentum (what is a burnt rhyperior going to do? Definitely not pressure the gligar/toise paired with entei).

Lastly entei is good throughout the whole match , breaks by himself early game and E-speed cleans late game . Note that Espeed demolishes frail scarfers like gardevoir and can use spike/voltturn support to get things in KO range.

So I am voting ban and hope people think of the ridiculous advantage entei has over teams not using it unless they carry milotic, and the incredibly formidable breaker +cleaner potential it has in offense which makes it impossible to withstand when paired with other hitters due to e-speed being impossible to deal with with weakened scarfers or regular priority like honchcrow or bruxish.


Have a nice day!

 

[phantom]

Quick announment: there was a bit of a mixup with the threshold required for bans/unbans. Entei will only need to recieve a 51% pro-unban majority to be unbanned, just like Zygarde-10%. So far, this has not changed the result, but we feel this is necessary to clarify to all of the voters and fix to make sure our tiering policy remains consistent as it has been throughout the gen.

 

[phantom]

In a razor-thin vote, Entei has been unbanned from RU!

Tagging The Immortal to please remove the suspect ladder and unban Entei from the regular RU ladder. Thanks!

 

[Feliburn]

 

[atomicllamas]

Since there are questions about why there was a change in the ban percentage mid test here is why. One of us interpreted the outcome of this thread ( https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/inconsistency-in-the-suspect-process.3631977/ ) to be all suspect tests regardless of tier should be 60% to ban. This is not the outcome of the thread as you can see in Hikari/ABR’s posts. After talking to SS, we learned that had we kept the test at 60% we would have been required to 1) explain why it was changed to 60 (no good reason, literally a misinterpretation) and 2) kept all suspects at the 60% mark in the future (had to be a permanent change). I don’t think either of us think it’s a good thing to ignore the majority of the voters in any case. Additionally we believe it was important to remain consistent with previous tests. Had this vote gone down with it kept at 60% people would have complained that we changed the rules from the zydoge test, so there really was no way to resolve this with everyone feeling good about it. But again we felt consistency with past tests and listening to the majority of voters was more important than sticking to a mistake in the OP.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Look, I wanna say something right now. I don't care about RU. I don't care about any mainstream Smogon tier right now. I say this because I want you to know that I am not salty over Entei being unbanned.

With that said, for the love of god, can we stop it with this unban mania going on in the lower tiers? People/the council voted to unban Azu and Breloom in UU because they didn't seem broken. What ended up happening? Months later, Azu got quickbanned, and Breloom is currently under extreme scrutiny by the playerbase. In the OP, there was no reason given for Entei to be unbanned. It wasn't suspected because it could legitimately help the meta and make it healthier. It was suspected because people just wanted a shiny new toy.

Now, it could turn out that Entei is perfectly fine and healthy. But what if it isn't? What if it's like Azu and Loom in UU? Then guess what? Everybody wasted their time and broke a meta, making the power creep worse and worse for no reason at all.

RU was a perfectly fine tier prior to this. There was no need for change. Now, with a razor-thin vote within a matter of 2 weeks, here we got a change that will completely shake up the metagame for months to come, and will disturb a once peaceful tier. Is stuff like this really necessary? Can't we just hold off on unbans and short-ass suspects that say nothing about the healthyness of mons and let the lower tiers stay as they are? ESPECIALLY with down-to-the-wire votes like this?

 

[Moon]

Look, I wanna say something right now. I don't care about RU. I don't care about any mainstream Smogon tier right now. I say this because I want you to know that I am not salty over Entei being unbanned.

With that said, for the love of god, can we stop it with this unban mania going on in the lower tiers? People/the council voted to unban Azu and Breloom in UU because they didn't seem broken. What ended up happening? Months later, Azu got quickbanned, and Breloom is currently under extreme scrutiny by the playerbase. In the OP, there was no reason given for Entei to be unbanned. It wasn't suspected because it could legitimately help the meta and make it healthier. It was suspected because people just wanted a shiny new toy.

Now, it could turn out that Entei is perfectly fine and healthy. But what if it isn't? What if it's like Azu and Loom in UU? Then guess what? Everybody wasted their time and broke a meta, making the power creep worse and worse for no reason at all.

RU was a perfectly fine tier prior to this. There was no need for change. Now, with a razor-thin vote within a matter of 2 weeks, here we got a change that will completely shake up the metagame for months to come, and will disturb a once peaceful tier. Is stuff like this really necessary? Can't we just hold off on unbans and short-ass suspects that say nothing about the healthyness of mons and let the lower tiers stay as they are? ESPECIALLY with down-to-the-wire votes like this?

Just want to say that the reason entei was suspected was because it was felt that it might not be unhealthy or broken. That is reason enough, there's no sense in refusing to test a new mon just because the tier is balanced as it is. The point isn't to try and fix an existing problem in the tier it's to test if a mon deserves to be banned or not.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Just want to say that the reason entei was suspected was because it was felt that it might not be unhealthy or broken. That is reason enough, there's no sense in refusing to test a new mon just because the tier is balanced as it is. The point isn't to try and fix an existing problem in the tier it's to test if a mon deserves to be banned or not.

Ok, fair. But the current way of doing it is highly flawed. Again, going back to the Azu/Loom ezample, you CANNOT judge whether a mon is broken or not based on a 2-week-long public suspect test. Hell, even going before that, Weavile was unbanned in UU by a landslide vote, and it took a good 4 months for people to realize it was broken. In that time, it completely warped the metagame and made the tier way less fun and more centralized. These kinds of suspects are high risk, low reward. If it turns out the mon isn't broken, then ok, nothing really happened to make the tier more fun. But if it turns out to be broken at a later date, which, again, take months most of the time, then the tier gets worse and worse when it was fine before. See what I'm getting at?

 

[WMAR]

Ok, fair. But the current way of doing it is highly flawed. Again, going back to the Azu/Loom ezample, you CANNOT judge whether a mon is broken or not based on a 2-week-long public suspect test. Hell, even going before that, Weavile was unbanned in UU by a landslide vote, and it took a good 4 months for people to realize it was broken. In that time, it completely warped the metagame and made the tier way less fun and more centralized. These kinds of suspects are high risk, low reward. If it turns out the mon isn't broken, then ok, nothing really happened to make the tier more fun. But if it turns out to be broken at a later date, which, again, take months most of the time, then the tier gets worse and worse when it was fine before. See what I'm getting at?

Its never bad to experiment, the meta isn't always the same too.I feel the council does the right decision to unban mons that were broken before to see if the meta is well prepped, lets look at Mega Slowbro in UU for example, that mon was unhealthy in the Beta and now it fits and the meta was fit for it. I don't think their system is flawed, i feel they are doing the right thing, and if its broken, ban, no issue on that.

 

[EviGaro]

Ok, fair. But the current way of doing it is highly flawed. Again, going back to the Azu/Loom ezample, you CANNOT judge whether a mon is broken or not based on a 2-week-long public suspect test. Hell, even going before that, Weavile was unbanned in UU by a landslide vote, and it took a good 4 months for people to realize it was broken. In that time, it completely warped the metagame and made the tier way less fun and more centralized. These kinds of suspects are high risk, low reward. If it turns out the mon isn't broken, then ok, nothing really happened to make the tier more fun. But if it turns out to be broken at a later date, which, again, take months most of the time, then the tier gets worse and worse when it was fine before. See what I'm getting at?

The fundamental flaw here is that you are applying this suspect to UU's policy, when they are absolutely different scenarios. Entei just dropped back to us, if anything this is a lot closer to Zygarde's suspect than Buzzwole/Weavile/Azu/Loom whatever. Entei is much more about the simple fact that in usage based tiers, mons do drop, and while some are absolutely broken like Mienshao and Mega Houndoom, for others it is much less clear.

And that's where I'm kinda lost with your argument, RU being a "perfectly fine tier" doesn't take away that it is usage based, and that the council and the community have to chime in when the tiers inevitably change. There is absolutely no mandate to preserve a tier from change, that would be ludicrous. It's up to us to work with that change, share what we think and how builds can be made. To me that's where the fun is.

Now maybe Entei truly is broken, and maybe we will see that later as everyone can see that vote was contentious. We have months of very little tournament play ahead of us though, bar the Finals of rupl and the ladder tour, so really there's hardly any rush. If it turns out that the unban voters regret their decision and there's a bigger push for Entei to be banned, then all we would have lost is a few months of nothing, hardly something I would qualify as high risk.

 

[Chandell]

Entei's potential :https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-746081217
I like Entei, and I don't like RU that much. Entei is a perfectly fine, balancedTM additon to RU. Keep in mind that if you want to make a good RU team, you can start with two steps. Entei+Entei counter. With that out of the way, you can build effectively. The question is, why not use Entei other than rocks? It's like a Scizor or Lando T.

 

[Denial]

Entei's potential :https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-746081217
I like Entei, and I don't like RU that much. Entei is a perfectly fine, balancedTM additon to RU.

Since when a random battle at 1300 is enough to prove something?

Keep in mind that if you want to make a good RU team, you can start with two steps. Entei+Entei counter. With that out of the way, you can build effectively.

so are you saying that we are obbligate to run entei + an entei counter? Something like that is broken af.