np: RU Stage 13 - All I want for Christmas - is a balanced tier

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ScraftyIsTheBest

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#76
I have the inkling that Hail is going to be much more dangerous later on, once people start to really take advantage of it. Last round, some voters (me included) thought that Cresselia wasn't too bad, but once people started taking advantage of all her duckly attributes, that's when she became dangerous.

Something that just hit me is that Hail is going to make defensive / semi- / Stall teams much harder to create, and the general lack of bulky Pokemon in the tier (excluding Cresselia) makes life even harder. The hail damage cancels out the Leftovers, and makes it easier to wear the walls down. I think this side-effect is really important, because then it causes the tier to be more offensive, similar to what Nidoqueen did, although probably not to that extreme. The direct effect of Hail, itself, isn't all that dangerous, it's the side-effects that are. Of the defensive Pokemon, the one that doesn't care if Clefable and Walrein, thanks to Magic Guard and Ice-typing, respectively. All the others generate chip damage. Now the question is to what extent is this going to happen, probably less than Nidoqueen, but nevertheless at least some. Do we want a balanced metagame? Sure why not. Cresselia is overcentralizing in that she can be half a Stall team herself. I think its important for people to think down the road, and see all the effects of Hail. Blizzard will be more common. Other weathers to cancel Hail. Defensive Pokemon that go more offensive due to Leftovers being canceled out. There's probably more, but I'm only one person. Something for people to think about.
Honestly, that is rather debatable. The lack of Leftovers recovery isn't much though, but defensive Pokemon may still stand. Hail isn't a common sight on the battlefield, really, because they suffer from too much compounded weakness to Fighting and Stealth Rock, which means Poliwrath can stop hail teams cold most of the time. Hail has numerous issues: Firstly, it has to rely on the mighty Snover. That is bad. When you're forced to rely on a mediocre Pokemon like the Mighty Snover, that's a big crutch. Also, very few can take advantage of hail, and those who can are usually Stealth Rock weak, racking up Stealth Rock damage too easily. The impact Hail is making on this meta is not much. Stallrein and Mandibuzz can be very annoying, and Rotom-F and Glaceon can be super powerful, but you must keep in mind that they are Stealth Rock weak and they have the mass weakness to Fighting, plus they are extremely dependent on the Mighty Snover to be successful. Hail is not that good of a weather and is typically not hard to counter. It's not ban worthy.
 

Pocket

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#77
Cresselia is indeed a massive tank. During mini-tours, last round, and this round, I haven't find myself struggling to get past Cresselia, though. I think the biggest misconception I've heard on IRC channel and on the forums is the need to counter Cresselia. This strikes me as an absurd notion (countering a defensive mon?). From experience, you don't need to counter Cresselia; in contrary, all you need to do is pack more than one Pokemon that's not walled by Cresselia. Seeing how offensive teams pack more than 1 powerful offensive mon, Cresselia isn't destroying HO anytime soon. The emphasis is now on the opponent switching in Cresselia on your mon rather than you switching into Cresselia. And from my experience there are plenty of mons that can put major dents to Cresselia to make it useless if it ever switches in on them. Here's a quick list:
  • Absol
  • Aerodactyl (Taunt & Roost)
  • Aggron (CB)
  • Armaldo
  • Bouffalant
  • Cacturne
  • Crawdaunt
  • Crustle
  • Durant
  • Drapion
  • Druddigon (HC & LO)
  • Entei (SubCM)
  • Escavalier
  • Feraligatr
  • Fraxure (DD Taunt & Eviolite)
  • Gallade (SD & Lum / Sub)
  • Golurk (LO)
  • Hariyama (Guts + Payback)
  • Linoone
  • Pinsir
  • Rhydon (SD)
  • Sawsbuck (SD)
  • Scolipede
  • Scyther
  • Zangoose
  • Accelgor (LO)
  • Eelektross (Acid Spray)
  • Haunter (LO)
  • Jynx
  • Magneton (Metal Sound)
  • Samurott (Taunt or SD)
  • Spiritomb

Quite a list for a Pokemon "that walls 95% of the metagame." Then of course there's manual Rain and Sun that adds more to the list of Pokemon that Cresselia fails to wall:
  • Floatzel (BU + LO)
  • Kabutops
  • Kingler
  • Omastar
  • Gorebyss
  • Poliwrath (BD)
  • Emboar
  • Entei
  • Magmortar
  • Moltres
  • Charizard

Also there are Utility mons that can force Cress out or cripple it
  • Clefable (Encore + Status)
  • Cryogonal (Haze + Status)
  • Lapras (Hydration + Status)
  • Mandibuzz (Phaze / Taunt / Status)
  • Misdreavus (PerishTrap / Stallbreaker)
  • Whimsicott

Now include Hail into the mix, and I found Cresselia an impenetrable wall on paper, but perfectly breakable in practice. From my perspective, RU has more than enough tools to deal with Cresselia. Sure, Cresselia is a major centralization force, as is any other good Pokemon like Sceptile, Entei, Slowking, etc. However, it does not restrict teambuilding to the extent that demands its banishment imo (and as shown through the list of mons that Cress doesn't wall).
 

Limitless

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#78
Something that just hit me is that Hail is going to make defensive / semi- / Stall teams much harder to create, and the general lack of bulky Pokemon in the tier (excluding Cresselia) makes life even harder. The hail damage cancels out the Leftovers, and makes it easier to wear the walls down. I think this side-effect is really important, because then it causes the tier to be more offensive, similar to what Nidoqueen did, although probably not to that extreme. The direct effect of Hail, itself, isn't all that dangerous, it's the side-effects that are.
I don't really agree with this at all. When I use hail, the more bulky the team, the harder it usually is to sweep. When the teams are offensive, I can usually do quite a bit of damage with Snover and blizzard spamming becomes a breeze. I don't really feel like the canceling of leftovers is all that relevant, as I even use bulky Pokemon as pivots in my own hail teams, and they operate just fine. Lastly, Munchlax, a Pokemon that doesn't even have Leftovers, is a huge pain in the ass for hail teams. The only thing that you can do, if the opponent is competent, is trick a choice item on it.

Now the question is to what extent is this going to happen, probably less than Nidoqueen, but nevertheless at least some. Do we want a balanced metagame? Sure why not. Cresselia is overcentralizing in that she can be half a Stall team herself. I think its important for people to think down the road, and see all the effects of Hail. Blizzard will be more common. Other weathers to cancel Hail. Defensive Pokemon that go more offensive due to Leftovers being canceled out. There's probably more, but I'm only one person. Something for people to think about.
I really think this logic is flawed. We are not voting on a metagame that we are envisioning. We are voting based on what the metagame has currently shown. To make assumptions about a theoretical metagame, while possibly true, is not the correct way to go about it. Theoretically, you could just skip the entire suspect process and just vote. Obviously, that's a bit exaggerated, but you get the point. Only vote based on what you've seen.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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#79
Cresselia is indeed a massive tank. During mini-tours, last round, and this round, I haven't find myself struggling to get past Cresselia, though. I think the biggest misconception I've heard on IRC channel and on the forums is the need to counter Cresselia. This strikes me as an absurd notion (countering a defensive mon?). From experience, you don't need to counter Cresselia; in contrary, all you need to do is pack more than one Pokemon that's not walled by Cresselia. The emphasis is now on the opponent switching in Cresselia on your mon rather than you switching into Cresselia. And from my experience there are plenty of mons that can put major dents to Cresselia to make it useless if it ever switches in on them. Here's a quick list:
  • Absol
  • Aerodactyl (Taunt & Roost)
  • Aggron (CB)
  • Armaldo
  • Bouffalant
  • Cacturne
  • Crawdaunt
  • Crustle
  • Durant
  • Drapion
  • Druddigon (HC & LO)
  • Entei (SubCM)
  • Escavalier
  • Feraligatr
  • Fraxure (DD Taunt & Eviolite)
  • Gallade (SD & Lum / Sub)
  • Golurk (LO)
  • Hariyama (Guts + Payback)
  • Linoone
  • Pinsir
  • Rhydon (SD)
  • Sawsbuck (SD)
  • Scolipede
  • Scyther
  • Zangoose
  • Accelgor (LO)
  • Eelektross (Acid Spray)
  • Haunter (LO)
  • Jynx
  • Magneton (Metal Sound)
  • Samurott (Taunt or SD)
  • Spiritomb

Quite a list for a Pokemon "that walls 95% of the metagame." Then of course there's manual Rain and Sun that adds more to the list of Pokemon that Cresselia fails to wall:
  • Floatzel (BU + LO)
  • Kabutops
  • Kingler
  • Omastar
  • Gorebyss
  • Poliwrath (BD)
  • Emboar
  • Entei
  • Magmortar
  • Moltres
  • Charizard

Also there are Utility mons that can force Cress out or cripple it
  • Clefable (Encore + Status)
  • Cryogonal (Haze + Status)
  • Lapras (Hydration + Status)
  • Mandibuzz (Phaze / Taunt / Status)
  • Misdreavus (PerishTrap / Stallbreaker)
  • Whimsicott

Now include Hail into the mix, and I found Cresselia an impenetrable wall on paper, but perfectly breakable in practice. From my perspective, RU has more than enough tools to deal with Cresselia. Sure, Cresselia is a major centralization force, as is any other good Pokemon like Sceptile, Entei, Slowking, etc. However, it does not restrict teambuilding to the extent that demands its banishment imo (and as shown through the list of mons that Cress doesn't wall).
With all aspects, I'm inclined to disagree here. Cresselia can get hit super effectively, but has so much bulk that if it's not coming from Absol or Escavalier, it probably won't get OHKO'd. Most things who can hit it super effectively absolutely need to set up or they can't break through it. Cresselia also packs so many dangerous sets- The CM set not only provides it offensive prowess, but more special bulk- so it is literally impenetrable. T-Wave can cripple opponents so it can set up CM. Or alternatively, it can take a Hidden Power- Fire hurts Esca while Fighting deals with Absol and Crawdaunt. Also, Ice Beam can be used to deal with the two true dragons Fraxure and Druddigon as well as Sigi. Dual Screens can essentially do for the whole team and soften attacks. This makes Cresselia very powerful and overcentralizing.

Poliwrath, one of Cresselia's most common teammates walls everything Cress fails to wall. Cress not wallin' that thing for ya? In comes the mighty Poliwrath, laughing at that thing and prpares to burn or phaze.

Also, weather is so rare that Cress has little to worry about. She's still an OP wall.

If you don't carry something to break through Cresselia+Poliwrath, you're screwed. With that, Cresselia is surely ban worthy IMO.

EDIT: Another thing worth noting is that some of those things you mentioned very rarely run those moves. Magneton almost never runns Metal Sound, Rhydon hardly ever runs SD, and Druddi never runs HC. Floatzel never runs Bulk Up-its low Defense stat discourages that. Poliwrath also never runs Belly Drum, and is bound to die to Psychic easily. Also, Whimsicott is terrible.
 

Molk

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#80
I was going to post this before but i wanted confirmation that nobody would laugh at me first.

So i was trying to run a hyper offensive team, a lot like trop and i's old The Queen's tyranny team, but i wanted a more solid check to cresselia because the space duck can beat absol when played well thanks to its fraility, so i tried to find another pokemon that could beat pretty much any Cresselia set, because im a joker i decided to try out the mighty Dragon Dance Shed Skin Scraggy (im probably going to try Bulk Up too because lol) as my offensive Cresselia check, and to my surprise, it wasnt that bad, at least vs the admittedly subpar players on the PS ladder. Scraggy has pretty much perfect neutral coverage between its two STABs, and also has access to a high powered Fighting-type move to somewhat make up for its mediocre Attack stat. Scraggy could set up on many defensive Pokemon such as Cresselia, Slowking, Lanturn, Ferroseed, Uxie, and Spiritomb thanks to its decent bulk with Eviolite and Shed Skin, and could easily restore any hp lost in the process with Drain Punch. Im not sure if Scraggy is truely viable, though. Scraggy has a very low Speed stat (even slower than Crawdaunt), and its quite vulnerable without at least one Dragon Dance boost, Scraggy also struggles to do enough damage to the opponent if its not using Hi Jump Kick because of its mediocre Attack stat. Because of its relatively low offensive stats i often found that i needed to get to +2 to consistently sweep (thank god this shit is bulky x_x). So what do you guys think? Is Scraggy even the slightest bit viable in the metagame? or is the PS ladder just being bad?

dont make fun of me :x
 
#81
Cool idea going with Scrafty for some more bulk, the only thing about it is that dd Scraggy, like many checks, get's stopped cold by Cresselia's #1 partner in crime Poliwrath. Poli can take a +1 move easily and return fire with a super effective attack while phazing away any boosts that have been accumulated and racking up entry hazard damage.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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#82
Cool idea going with Scrafty for some more bulk, the only thing about it is that dd Scraggy, like many checks, get's stopped cold by Cresselia's #1 partner in crime Poliwrath. Poli can take a +1 move easily and return fire with a super effective attack while phazing away any boosts that have been accumulated and racking up entry hazard damage.
Ya mean Scraggy, right?

Yeah, Scraggy could make for a solid check to Cress, with the massive bulk and the BU set has Shed Skin, which makes Thunder Wave a lesser worry. But yeah, Poliwrath can take a hit from this nigga and phaze with Circle Throw. But again, Cresselia+Poliwrath=The Unbreakable God Duo. Either way though, Scraggy seems like a solid Pokemon tbh.

Well Scraggy does seem a little cool in RU. It has perfect coverage in just its STAB's alone (two of the Pokemon who resist the STAB's are locked away in the higher tiers, while one is shit outside of LC), and has just enough bulk to set up. It can set up on numerous defensive threats, and pull off the sweep. It does seem cool. Though whether it is truly viable is questionable-it does get destroyed by Fighting-types before it gets going, and is outsped by Sceptile and Scolipede. Though once again, Scraggy seems cool to use since Scrafty isn't RU (Thank goodness).

Then again, this is coming from a guy who always loved pulling off random Scrafty sweeps in the higher tiers, so I really don't know about Scraggy's viability.
 

SilentVerse

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#83
Alright, the votes are in! Double01 has not voted yet, but since it has come to my attention that he is currently on vacation, and the fact that a verdict has already been reached, I'm going to post the results anyway.

Cresselia:

Hot N Cold said:


Cresselia boasts a impressive defense of 120/120/130 making her the best mixed wall on RU, she is not slow to be a defensive Pokémon and has a great ability that helps against spickestacking teams. She has a many options with different roles for different playstyles, the first reason to use her are hers defensive qualities, she can take anything bar super effective attack and status moves, while Cresselia can help offensive teams by supporting them with t-wave, reflect and light screen for the sweepers, running rain dance or sunny day for weather support or just by using lunar dance to recover one of the most important members of your team in late game, in general an awesome pivot. On the other hand, on defensive teams is where Cresselia really shines, because she can check a lot of dangerous threats and is ridiculously easy to find good teammates such as Poliwrath, Qwiflish and Spiritomb, thus paired with a Cleric make them nearby indestructible. The actual options are very limited and restrictive in the teambuilding because Cresselia makes a perfect playstyle and centralizes the metagame, an exceptional wall with differents and solid options (like bulky sweeper), makes this tier shiver by her sole presence, Cresselia is too broken for this meta.


Ban Cresselia
Limitless said:
Cresselia: Ban

Seeing as how I'm usually an avid OU player, it was really hard for me to believe that Cresselia was broken in RU. The reasons for my apprehension were because in OU it just sat on teams and did nothing. It would just be a sponge that you had take repeated damage, and you just rinsed and repeated. However, that strategy is too powerful in RU because it can just sit there for the entire match. In higher tiers, it can be overwhelmed by offense, but that's not the case here. It's an immovable wall.

In addition to being an insane wall, it also provides the ability to sweep with Calm Mind (through either Moonlight or Rest/Talk), hail counter through Sunny Day + Moonlight, or even as a utility that uses screens and Lunar Dance for its teammates to setup.

There are just simply too many ways that Cresselia can overpower the metagame, through offensive, defensive, and utility roles.
Nails said:
Cresselia: Ban

lol i cant honestly believe you guys a. brought cressy back in the first place or b. voted it not OP. cresselia is venomoth tier broken, borderline yanmega good. cmon guys. what are you doing here?
Level 51 said:
Cresselia: Ban

I think it's pretty easy to see where I'm coming from on this one; Cresselia, in my opinion, is just flat out way too bulky to stay in RU. Besides its insane bulk, it also has some pretty effective support moves, including (but not limited to) Thunder Wave, Toxic, Sunny Day, and perhaps most terrible of all, MOONLIGHT. But you already knew all of that, didn't you? Add to this Lunar Dance, which allows dangerous sweepers (like Entei!) to be used over again, after all the damage from recoil and hazards. This seems... a *little* broken to me.
Molk said:
Cresselia: Ban

The RU senate initially thought Cresselia should stay in the tier due to the existence of multiple "checks" that could beat Cresselia 1 vs 1, but as the rounds went on it quickly became apparent that cresselia was still a broken force in the metagame, and a lot of its "checks" were easily beaten by teammates or even by Cresselia itself with the proper set. Cresselia is capable of completely walling about 80% of the tier by itself over the course of the match, and can easily win games by itself simply because the opponent has no way to break through it, many people use Calm Mind Cresselia to set up a sweep, but oftentimes she doesnt even need it to just simply wall the opponents entire team to death. Cresselia also comes with a ton of support options and it can easily set up a win condition for almost any team, offensive and defensive alike, with these options. Cresselia has been tested in RU a grand total of four times, and this time i think it has to go for good, if Cresselia cant fit into the metagame without being broken now, i simply cant see if ever being balanced in the RU tier.
SilentVerse said:
Ban Cresselia

Yeah, so my reasoning on Cresselia hasn't changed at all from my last vote. Cresselia is still incredibly centralizing, and is incredibly difficult to handle without using various checks, due to Cresselia's ability to single-handedly beat different checks with slight moveset alterations. It also makes a slew of Pokemon essentially liabilities, and thus, Cresselia should be banned.
So, in a unanimous 6-0 decision, Cresselia will be banned from RU!
 

SilentVerse

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#84
Snover:

Hot N Cold said:


When I first saw a permanent weather in low tiers I tought it should be broken, but I actually don´t think it is broken. Snover is an awful pokemon, no one should never use him without Snow Warning, he has bad stats and only has two viable sets: Focus Sash and the "bulky" one, he is a perfect setup fodder for many of the Pokémon in the tier which is a huge handicap for your team. Hail teams also have terrible problems with teambuilding because Snover occupies a slot that could be occupied with a more efficient Pokémon fulfilling a dedicated rol on the team; OK so you can think that you really need this bad Snover to abuse with Hail, then you will see that your team needs to cover some threats and that it isn't able. Fortunately (or unfortunately) the Pokémon that can abuse and take advantage from Snow Warning share similar weaknesses and advantages, making Hail easier to deal with because there are certain Pokémon that can manage them quite easily. Nowadays Snow Warning isn't broken, we shall see in the future.

Do not ban Snow Warning
Limitless said:
Hail: No Ban

Hail is interesting in that I think at one point in the future it could be labeled as something that needs to be banned, but from what I've seen, nobody has been able to put together the right combinations to make hail overly powerful. Maybe there's not a combination that does that. Since I saw no evidence that hail could handle such threats like Gallade, defensive Entei, Munchlax, or anything that doesn't break to a hail barrage, I believe that its effectiveness is limited to the opponent's lack of recognizing a threat. In OU, if you do not prepare for a Lucario, and you subsequently get swept, that does not mean Lucario is overpowered. All that does is show the incompetence of the team builder. There are many ways to deal with hail in the current metagame, through both Pokemon and moves.
Nails said:
Snover: Ban

Hail's impact on the metagame is subtle but dramatic. Like any other powerful change, such as cresselia it requires adaptation to accomodate. People overadapted to cressy and somehow the consensus deemed it not broken. The same thing happened here. Stall makes lots of team builds less viable solely due to its existence. Life orbs and choice scarves become a bigger liability because the more of them you pack on the harder it is to overcome a hail team in those 20% of games you play. It's like any other threat in that respect, you need to cover it and if you don't you're swept.

Offensively hail is actually receiving criticism which is ridiculous. How hail works: set up toxic spikes, force other team to switch in grass types, blizzard. Repeat until they sacrifice their grass type, then sweep with a sweeper that needs opposing grasses removed. It's not one single pokemon doing the sweeping which... is maybe relevant? But the hail snover provides is incredibly valuable team support strictly in terms of extra damage. For example Glaceon's choice specs blizzard does roughly 34% to the defensive slowking listed in the analysis (248/116+), which, when paired with toxic spikes and sr is not enough to 2hko slowking switching in (it's about 97% before factoring in two turns of lefties) but thanks to hail damage happening before leftovers slowking must withstand 103% of its hp in damage and so it cannot counter specs glaceon when glaceon has tspikes support (yes. tspikes are incredibly good on hail. don't ask me why no one else has figured this out, it's even part of the standard hail stall recipe. turns out hail offense likes them just as much).

I could go on about how staller glaceon has shit tons of power and is fast enough and bulky enough to defeat 95% of the tier 1v1 but honestly I can't believe I even have to have this discuss it. RU got completely shifted when hail got introduced, and imo hail breaks all three characteristics of an uber, putting snover clearly over the line in the support characteristic.
Level 51 said:
Hail: Do Not Ban

I was originally pretty much on the fence about this one, but I ultimately feel that Hail's pros are sufficiently 'muffled' by its cons. Besides the crutch provided by your hail-setter (however good Snover gets, it's still a downgrade, so to speak), there's also the problem many Hail teams come with type synergy, leaving such teams, typically, with not much space for hail abusers.
Molk said:
Hail: Do Not Ban


I initially thought that hail would mess up RU pretty badly, but it seems to be pretty balanced at the moment. Hail is obviously a powerful force in the metagame, but it really does suffer from a ton of crippling flaws that make it more than beatable. Snover is a pretty mediocre Pokemon on its own and in this metagame its not uncommon to see a hail team basically playing 5/6 simply because snover was incapable of accomplishing anything significant in the match. You also have to keep in mind that all of the hail abusers are Ice-types, which leaves Hail teams open to certain moves such as Stealth Rock, Fire Blast, Close Combat, Gyro Ball, and Stone Edge from the start, which is never a good thing. Many Pokemon such as Gallade, the mighty Munchlax, Escavalier, Klinklang, and Entei can give hail a pretty hard time on their own. Almost all of the Pokemon that are used to cover these weaknesses take residual hail damage, which can reduce their longetivity drastically, depending on the Pokemon in question. From my experience both on the ladder and against other established players, hail has been manageable and sometimes even underwhelming, and i think that we should at least give it a chance in the RU tier.
SilentVerse said:
Ban Snover

Snover is the more controversial suspect of this round, and I have personally been incredibly undecided about it. On one hand, Snover is a liability on most teams. Even with the Focus Sash set that has been all the rage this round, I found that against competent opponents, Snover would maybe deal about 50% at most before dying, and most of the time I would have to simply fodder it. There is also the fact that the Ice-type is just an awful defensive type, and the fact that you may have to stack various Ice-types on your team to get the most out of hail is quite a disadvantage. And, 100% accurate Blizzards aren't SO bad in a metagame filled with viable Pokemon that resist it.

However, from my experience, hail, while somewhat manageable (though only because I feel that people have not used it to its fullest), is very, very powerful. The extra 6% of residual damage from hail itself, for example, racks up damage incredibly fast on Pokemon that use items such as Life Orb, Choice items, or Eviolite, and that continuous 6% of damage itself has netted me many kills in the matches that I've played. There's also the fact that Hail abusers like SubProtect Glaceon and Stallrein are able to completely stall out teams on their own, and thanks to the 100% accurate Blizzard hail gives them, they will usually net at least one kill on their own, if not more against teams that simply lack the sheer muscle or defensive backbone to break through them, either by outstalling defensive Pokemon that cannot break their Substitutes via Hail and Toxic, or blasting through offensive Pokemon with their powerful Blizzards. From my experience, these Pokemon are incredibly underutilized but are absurdly dangerous, and after using them extensively throughout the round, I am convinced that Snover simply provides too much support for these Pokemon and thus, it should be banned.
So, in a close 4-2 decision, Snover will not be banned from RU!


Also, as a heads up, Oglemi and I have decided that we will hold off on future RU rounds temporarily, to let the metagame stabilize a bit before SPL. We will resume testing on January 1st at the earliest, depending on whether or not certain Pokemon drop, so we'll get back to you guys then! In the meantime, enjoy the metagame!
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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#87
Yay, Cress got banned! Good riddance Cress!

Also, thank goodness hail is still here. It's not broken, and it's fun to use.

Also, when are we reinstating the RU Ladder?
 
#89
Thank you to the tiering staff! RU will be fun again now that Cress is gone.

Also, one thing I've noticed is that lampent can function surprisingly well on a hail team. It is completely immune to fire and fighting, which are a conventional hail team's biggest weakness. I would encourage people to try it out!
 
#94
Now, now, let's not be entirely unreasonable, with relooking at BL2 there was probable cause that Cresselia should at least have been tested given metagame changes. As it turned out it was banned a round too slow but lesson learned and a nice Christmas present for us all.
 

Meru

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#95
Oh look people realized Cresselia walls too much shit in the low tiers, like the last 2 times. Can't wait for the next Cress suspect test.
Yeah we should never re-test things, seeing how Durant also was found to be massively broken this round too!
 
#97
I'm so happy that Cresselia's gone!

Well, I've been experimenting a bit, and wanted to share some Pokemon that I think are some true gems in the current metagame. First and foremost is Gallade. Gallade was already a brilliant check to hail, as it had the special bulk to be able to take unboosted blizzards and KO the Ice-types with Drain Punch (I've been using the bulky SD set and it's truly amazing in this meta). It's biggest counter was Cresselia, which is now obviously no longer an issue. Moltres is still a dick though.

Gallade got me thinking. What are some other Pokemon that do really well against hail and yet are not dead weight when the opponent doesn't run hail? Well, considering the face of hail is probably Frotom, I was looking at some BoltBeam resists that we have here. I've never been a big fan of Lanturn, Piloswine seems really interesting (still have to test this though, but it doesn't help that Frotom also resists Piloswine's STAB -.-). What I settled on was Magneton. Specially Defensive Magneton. Don't laugh, with Eviolite and a Calm nature, Magneton essentially has 304 / 339 /393 defenses. LO Frotom can only 4HKO Magneton with Blizzard counting Hail damage (Scarf is obviously less) and Magneton can strike back at Frotom with an Analytic boosted Flash Cannon, which despite being neutral, often OHKOs after SR or Substitute damage, and always after Frotom takes LO damage. Analytic is the real beauty of this set, as it essentially allows Magneton to have an effective SpA of 360, which isn't bad at all considering no SpA investment. The loss of Magnet Pull actually isn't so dramatic, as Steelix, Aggron and Durant beat Magneton regardless, and it can still happily counter/force out Klinklang and Escavalier. Here's the set I use:

Magneton @ Eviolite
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

ResTalk obviously isn't the most reliable strategy, but it's certainly good enough for Magneton. Having the most resistances of any Pokemon allows our pal to force multiple switches, freeing up turns. Cleric support is pretty easy to provide in RU (I'm using bulky QD lilligant with aromatherapy, a really underrated set) and it works like a charm. But of course there are many other options such as Roselia, Lickilicky, Uxie, etc.

SubDisable Haunter is also another amazing Pokemon in this meta, and has brilliant synergy with Magneton, both offensively (especially if Magneton is running Magnet Pull, as only Steel-types and Drapion resist Haunter's STAB iirc) and defensively, as Haunter is immune to two of Magneton's weaknesses and Magneton resists all of Haunter's. Molk has a bit more experience with Haunter though, It'd be cool if he could share it :)
 
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