Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)

[Aasgier]

I think you completely misunderstood what i was referring to so i guess i will explain to you. The logic i was referring to was the amazingly well thought out "This pokemon can be broken but I dont use the broken set so it doesnt deserve ban ehehehehehhh." Now that I explained that to you I think I should mention you should most definitely save that oh so exciting and relevant tale for a time where it makes sense it was truly an exciting one!

It was stated repeatedly that a SW-less Shuckle is unviable, whereas I just stated that there are teams where an SW-less Shuckle is the only thing that can fulfill the requirements for the mons in the last slot. These are rare, granted, but they exist.

I did not say a word about the reasoning of his ban, because I agree it is flawed.
I also understand where he comes from, because if he indeed picked Shuckle and its set for the last slot, he might have to construct a new team from scratch. Not everybody likes if a team that he worked on for several weeks suddenly loses the glue that keeps it together.
If he didn't pick Shuckle for the last slot, well... then I don't even get where his reasoning and arguments comes from.

 

[EonX]

Screw it. Stepping in here cuz logic is flawed and I can't stand it.

The problem with Shuckle is that it sets up Sticky Web super easily. No other Sticky Web user can afford to use Mental Herb because they're 1.) Frail 2.) Not viable or 3.) both. Mental Herb makes it to where you have to OHKO Shuckle with a multi-hit move (need luck with CB Rhyperior) or use Xatu to prevent it from getting up Sticky Web. Stealth Rock is honestly just a bonus. Unless the opponent has something like Yanmega or Moltres, I'm not making Rocks a priority.
Bans happen because a Pokemon or strategy is too powerful. Sticky Web makes it stupid easy to teambuild when you use it, but insanely difficult if you don't. Web Offense is basically Shuckle + Doublade + Braviary + Exploud + 2 random fillers that cover weaknesses and are offensive. That's pretty damn easy. In an ideal metagame, it should not be that easy to build a team that can devastate about 90% of the metagame without really trying. The fact that I can use this strategy without really liking Hyper Offense myself kinda makes me sad because it shows me just how incredibly powerful it is. After bans happen, you adapt. You make a new team that can still be very effective. I mean, I'll have to do the same thing, but that isn't going to deter me from wanting to get rid of Shuckle for the betterment of the whole tier.

 

[aVocado]

Also I'm gonna step in to add to what EonX said and say that in the past couple days, I've seen people with no experience in the RU metagame whatsoever (as in, laddering for the first time) come to the RU room and ladder with Sticky Web teams and fucking win and even maintain a high ranking. This shouldn't happen in a desirable metagame, you shouldn't ladder with no experience or knowledge of the tier and win so easily without even knowing the metagame.

 

[CyclicCompound]

Agreeing wholeheartedly with the above two posts, and also chiming in to remind everyone that Shuckle's effectiveness aside, having a guaranteed Sticky Web doesn't just make Shuckle broken, it makes every single wallbreaker in the tier broken. Assuming the opponent has either all grounded Pokemon or ungrounded Pokemon that can't touch it, an Adamant Zangoose effectively has the equivalent of fully invested 160 base speed. With its Toxic-boost-boosted Facade and coverage to hit the entire tier (as well as STAB Priority), how is that not broken as hell? While Zangoose is the fastest one commonly employed, other wallbreakers and sweepers have similarly magnified speeds while keeping their great attacking power. Checking these attackers is a pain in the butt - I don't want to be forced to run Scarf Rotom-C and Moltres on every single offensive team JUST to check Sticky Web teams. The only playstyle that almost always has a good matchup vs. Sticky Web is Trick Room, but Sticky Web teams are just so blatantly overpowered that I don't understand how people can justify keeping the #1 culprit in the tier.

And in case anyone wants to argue, will Sticky Web teams still be broken after Shuckle is gone? No, because as people have already stated, Shuckle is the most effective and guaranteed user of the move. I don't think Leavanny nor Masquerain nor anything else will be able to set it up as effectively as Shuckle will without being a total waste of space. The fact that Shuckle can ALWAYS set up, bar Iron Head flinches (although good Shuckle sets should always run enough speed for Escavalier), combined with the fact that it learns another entry hazard, can't be set up on, and can still be annoying with Infestation / Toxic / Knock Off means I think it's solidly unhealthy for the tier.

If it comes down to the day that my maximum speed Escavalier must pray for a 30% flinch to prevent a team of 5 wallbreakers with a free +1 speed boost from demolishing everything, I think something needs to change.

 

[Imanalt]

What MikeDawg said. That dog cleanly 2HKOs Doublade with Boomburst. Resistance makes no difference.

Doublade is also not the pinnacle of special bulk... specs boomburst does 25.8% max to registeel. Exploud works like a lot of wallbreakers against stall, if you predict whats coming in you 2hko, if you don't, you fail to kill and are forced out. The problem with these mons is usually they're almost useless against offense, because they can almost never get in cleanly. The problem with exploud is using it on a webs team is much less of a matchup choice. Its not that you're sacrificing your team's matchup with offense to do better against stall, it becomes you're still doing decently against offense, while giving stall hell.

That said, even without webs exploud may still be very strong, but its certainly early to make any judgments on how broken it is when it is so dependent on webs at the moment

 

[pokemonisfun]

Why should RU deny the lower tiers (or just NU I suppose) the joys of using Shuckle when you can just, instead of banning Shuckle, make a combo ban and ban Shuckle w/ Sticky Web? After all the only argument for ban of Shuckle stems primarily from the fact it gets Sticky Web.

 

[Molk]

Why should RU deny the lower tiers (or just NU I suppose) the joys of using Shuckle when you can just, instead of banning Shuckle, make a combo ban and ban Shuckle w/ Sticky Web? After all the only argument for ban of Shuckle stems primarily from the fact it gets Sticky Web.

the lowest tier shuckle is allowed in is RU .____.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Why should RU deny the lower tiers (or just NU I suppose) the joys of using Shuckle when you can just, instead of banning Shuckle, make a combo ban and ban Shuckle w/ Sticky Web? After all the only argument for ban of Shuckle stems primarily from the fact it gets Sticky Web.

cause we can

 

[pokemonisfun]

Yes but Molk obviously if you ban Sticky Web on Shuckle its usage will drastically drop and make it NU legal. Sorry I was not clear.

 

[Aladyyn]

We don't care if we can't use Shuckle in NU.

 

[RufflesPro]

Alright since I love spamming shuckle HO [Even though I acknowledge it's broken] I was looking into what can replace it after it goes and these 3 have caught me eyes:

Ariados @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 152 HP / 248 Def / 108 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Sticky Web
- Agility
- Baton Pass

Sticky web, but unlike other webbers, this pokemon can also set up Toxic Spikes, it might not have the bulk to set up both, but at the very least you can set up web and 1 toxic spike. Araidos can run Sucker Punch / Shadow Sneak + Megahorn in the last spots but Agility does not only let me outspeed some certain threats but also BP it into pokemon like Exploud and wreck HO. 108 Speed allows me to outspeed Braviary at +2. The rest are dumped into Defense while having rocks number. Insomnia also means this thing can set up on Amoonguss :].

Masquerain @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Scald
- Roost
- Sticky Web

This thing is actually really bulky. Factoring Intimidate and the ability to burn and the 248 HP / 252+ SDef makes this thing a beast. Most of all it can roost and Haze anything trying to set up. So this pokemon doesn't only set up web but spreads burn, heals, and stops set-up sweepers. This thing is probably the next Web user.

Leavanny @ Overcoat
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 8 SDef / 248 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Sticky Web
- Heal Bell

This set I'd only use on a Balanced team that needs Web. This thing takes it to the extreme, a good cleric, recovery, and web, this thing almost guarantees web as soon as Delphox is out of the field. If you get Heal Bell in while you are asleep that means you wake up and you don't lose momentum. Overcoat is nice, while Leavanny was already immune to powder moves at least you don't get buffeted by random hail and sand teams.​

 

[New Breed]

u cant replace shuckle

 

[TROP]

Alright since I love spamming shuckle HO [Even though I acknowledge it's broken] I was looking into what can replace it after it goes and these 3 have caught me eyes:

Leavanny @ Overcoat
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 8 SDef / 248 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Sticky Web
- Heal Bell

​

not sure which is worse

trying to replace shuckle or this set

 

[Ares]

Alright since I love spamming shuckle HO [Even though I acknowledge it's broken] I was looking into what can replace it after it goes and these 3 have caught me eyes:

Ariados @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 152 HP / 248 Def / 108 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Sticky Web
- Agility
- Baton Pass

Sticky web, but unlike other webbers, this pokemon can also set up Toxic Spikes, it might not have the bulk to set up both, but at the very least you can set up web and 1 toxic spike. Araidos can run Sucker Punch / Shadow Sneak + Megahorn in the last spots but Agility does not only let me outspeed some certain threats but also BP it into pokemon like Exploud and wreck HO. 108 Speed allows me to outspeed Braviary at +2. The rest are dumped into Defense while having rocks number. Insomnia also means this thing can set up on Amoonguss :].

Masquerain @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Scald
- Roost
- Sticky Web

This thing is actually really bulky. Factoring Intimidate and the ability to burn and the 248 HP / 252+ SDef makes this thing a beast. Most of all it can roost and Haze anything trying to set up. So this pokemon doesn't only set up web but spreads burn, heals, and stops set-up sweepers. This thing is probably the next Web user.

Leavanny @ Overcoat
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 8 SDef / 248 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Sticky Web
- Heal Bell

This set I'd only use on a Balanced team that needs Web. This thing takes it to the extreme, a good cleric, recovery, and web, this thing almost guarantees web as soon as Delphox is out of the field. If you get Heal Bell in while you are asleep that means you wake up and you don't lose momentum. Overcoat is nice, while Leavanny was already immune to powder moves at least you don't get buffeted by random hail and sand teams.​

The only pokemon left with sticky web in NU/RU that you didnt mention above is Kricketune. The nice thing about Kricketune is that it gets access to taunt. Also you didnt mention above that masquerain gets baton pass and quiverdance, just something else to mention to not make him totally useless.

 

[RufflesPro]

they can't replace shuckle but they can at the very least set-up stciky web when shuckle is gone.

Also I never said they were good, just what is decent out there. I don't know why you are hating on Leavanny, TROP, it works great against stall.

Also I didn't include kriketune because that thing has no defense or speed, best it can do is sash web and die.

 

[Evilfaic]

This suspect is pretty parallel to the Deo-D suspect. Bulky thing that guarantees [x] hazard. And once said thing is banned, nothing can fully replace it.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

I will only be able to play thursday-friday because of my busy schedule and hopefully get reqs that time, but my thoughts against Shuckle didn't change. It fucks offense and overcentralizes the metagame, and most of all it makes Rampardos viable. There's nothing I can say here that wasn't already said in this thread or the previous one, Shuckle needs to gtfo

Also I never said they were good, just what is decent out there. I don't know why you are hating on Leavanny, TROP, it works great against stall.

Taunt

 

[atomicllamas]

Alright since I love spamming shuckle HO [Even though I acknowledge it's broken] I was looking into what can replace it after it goes and these 3 have caught me eyes:

Ariados @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 152 HP / 248 Def / 108 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Sticky Web
- Agility
- Baton Pass

Sticky web, but unlike other webbers, this pokemon can also set up Toxic Spikes, it might not have the bulk to set up both, but at the very least you can set up web and 1 toxic spike. Araidos can run Sucker Punch / Shadow Sneak + Megahorn in the last spots but Agility does not only let me outspeed some certain threats but also BP it into pokemon like Exploud and wreck HO. 108 Speed allows me to outspeed Braviary at +2. The rest are dumped into Defense while having rocks number. Insomnia also means this thing can set up on Amoonguss :].

Masquerain @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Scald
- Roost
- Sticky Web

This thing is actually really bulky. Factoring Intimidate and the ability to burn and the 248 HP / 252+ SDef makes this thing a beast. Most of all it can roost and Haze anything trying to set up. So this pokemon doesn't only set up web but spreads burn, heals, and stops set-up sweepers. This thing is probably the next Web user.

Leavanny @ Overcoat
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 8 SDef / 248 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Sticky Web
- Heal Bell

This set I'd only use on a Balanced team that needs Web. This thing takes it to the extreme, a good cleric, recovery, and web, this thing almost guarantees web as soon as Delphox is out of the field. If you get Heal Bell in while you are asleep that means you wake up and you don't lose momentum. Overcoat is nice, while Leavanny was already immune to powder moves at least you don't get buffeted by random hail and sand teams.​

None of those Pokemon should be used defensively, trop wasn't hating on leavanny, your set is just not viable. Should use focus sash magic coat 2 attacks.

hilarious I really hope you are joking, cause that logic is really shitty.

>Also implying Shuckle without webs is NU viable, lol

 

[pokemonisfun]

atomicllamas hello there

I do not think my logic was shitty but let me explain please why; what I was asking for was why not ban the move Sticky Web on Shuckle instead of banning Shuckle itself from RU. Everybody or nearly everybody agrees that without Sticky Web Shuckle would not be broken at all and taking away a move is probably easier and more concrete than for instance reducing Shuckle's base stats' to lower its effectiveness. So I was just asking why not have the combination ban I suggested because that would have a very similar effect (no more Sticky Web Shuckle abusing in RU) while having the additional benefit of giving NU another Pokemon to play with? I understand because I am an extraordinarily competent Pokemon player, probably even more competent than you to be perfectly honest, that Shuckle will not be too useful in NU but my idea is letting more Pokemon in a tier is a good thing as long as the Pokemon are not "broken". Certainly Shuckle without Sticky Web isn't going to be broken in NU so why not just let him go there?

If the main reason to not use the idea I just suggested is something along the lines of "we really do not care about NU" then that is fine I guess but still I do not see the harm in the Shuckle Sticky Web ban combination.

 

[trc]

You're missing the point; Smogon does not do complex bans except for one time which was specified to only be in regards to weather. You can whitelist Shuckle as an exception, but then we can ask "why not allow say, Own Tempo Slowking in NU" and then we realise that all this is a bias towards a particular Pokemon and not an actual policy necessity.

 

[tennisace]

Sticky Web would only be a valid suspect if it was determined to be broken on every (mostly viable) Pokemon that got it.

 

[New Breed]

By that same logic we should have banned Spikes on Froslass instead of Froslass itself, we should also let Kyurem back into RU but ban the move Draco Meteor on it. I don't think I need to explain why this logic is extremely flawed lol it's a slippery slope argument that can be applied to almost every suspect like rly tho? yo Molk can we get a Hitmonlee + HJK suspect next thx bro!!!!

I understand because I am an extraordinarily competent Pokemon player, probably even more competent than you to be perfectly honest

you are extraordinarily annoying.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Well I find it unfortunate that none of you bother to question exactly what tiering is or just exactly how insignificant the community is to the entire tiering process but I do like the honest answers you gave me thanks. I apologize for bringing up my opinion on second thought this thread isn't really the place for that.

 

[atomicllamas]

atomicllamas hello there

Why hello there.

I do not think my logic was shitty but let me explain please why; what I was asking for was why not ban the move Sticky Web on Shuckle instead of banning Shuckle itself from RU.

I will gladly explain, I wrote my first post while I was taking a dump at work, so I was unable to elaborate at the time.

Everybody or nearly everybody agrees that without Sticky Web Shuckle would not be broken at all and taking away a move is probably easier and more concrete than for instance reducing Shuckle's base stats' to lower its effectiveness. So I was just asking why not have the combination ban I suggested because that would have a very similar effect (no more Sticky Web Shuckle abusing in RU) while having the additional benefit of giving NU another Pokemon to play with?

Well first things first, if Shuckle were to be NU with out Sticky Web, it would never be used by any competent player, so we would basically be giving them nothing. As stated by TRC, this type of complex ban is not in line with Smogon's tiering philosophy, which aims to make the simplest ban possible while removing the broken shit (ie. a Pokemon like Froslass, or a move, like Swagger). In this case, Shuckle is broken with Sticky Web, Shuckle has Sticky Web in its movepool, QED Shuckle is broken. If we start doing this type of tiering, should we be freeing Froslass without spikes? Which is probably actually viable in NU, and is not broken in RU, and hey why not Physical Kyogre in OU? Or Deo-D in BW OU w/o spikes, that definitely wasn't broken, and I enjoy using Nasty Plot Deo-D on my troll teams, why not free that, and Blaze Blaziken, and so on and so forth. Tiers just get to be really complicated if you start saying you can use X without Y, and Z without Q, which is why Smogon Policy is against complex bans. Where would you draw the line with this type of banning? To me this idea seems very poorly developed, and would cause way to many issues, just to let more people play with their favorites.

I understand because I am an extraordinarily competent Pokemon player,

Never said you weren't competent, I know you are a competent player.

probably even more competent than you to be perfectly honest,

lol, if you say so

that Shuckle will not be too useful in NU but my idea is letting more Pokemon in a tier is a good thing as long as the Pokemon are not "broken". Certainly Shuckle without Sticky Web isn't going to be broken in NU so why not just let him go there?

see first paragraph

If the main reason to not use the idea I just suggested is something along the lines of "we really do not care about NU" then that is fine I guess but still I do not see the harm in the Shuckle Sticky Web ban combination.

The person that said that was obviously joking.

Well I find it unfortunate that none of you bother to question exactly what tiering is or just exactly how insignificant the community is to the entire tiering process but I do like the honest answers you gave me thanks. I apologize for bringing up my opinion on second thought this thread isn't really the place for that.

God, don't be such a martyr.

If you make a pretentious post that fundamentally misses the point of Smogon's tiering, you are probably going to get some people that disagree with you responding to your post.

 

[Explorer]

• Hitmonlee
  
  : Hitmonlee shares a lot of problems with Kabutops, he is frail and at -1 speed you can't live enough to guarantee a spin. At least Hitmonlee has two advantages, he can damage Doublade spinblocker thanks to a stronger knock off and he has stronger STAB attacks. Even with this advantages, Hitmonlee has to play perfectly in order to kill the spinblocker and spin which is something not a lot of players can do especially with High Jump Kick 10% chance to miss. Also Hitmonlee is weak to flying type attacks which means that Yanmega and Braviary will ruin its day and prevent the spin. In conclusion, only a top player can spin with Hitmonlee and he/she will suffer a lot of damage in the process and intense mindgames on both sides.

• Hitmontop
  
  : At first Hitmontop looks like a poor choice for a spinner: slow, no recovery and weak to common attacking types in RU like Flying and Psychic. But Hitmontop has two tools that Kabutops nor Hitmonlee have: Foresight and Intimidate. With Intimidate Top has a better chance to take hits from physical monsters like Zangoose and Hitmonlee and with Foresight Hitmontop can spin even on ghost types. But of course, Hitmontop still has problems and using foresight causes 4MSS making a reliable but sometimes useless choice against SW teams.

Very nice post here. I have also used Hitmonchan as a spinner in RU to some success:

Hitmonchan (M) @ Assault Vest
Trait: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 SpD
Nature: Careful
-Drain Punch
-Rapid Spin
-Mach Punch
-Ice Punch/Fire Punch

Hitmonchan packs quite a punch with a solid attack stat and Iron Fist. If I have a cleric I can even afford to use Hitmonchan as my main special wall in many cases since its special defense is insane with this spread. Drain Punch also compensates for the lack of recovery from Leftovers. Ice Punch hits a wide range of targets, namely Gligar, but Fire Punch can be used as a niche move for the 4x weak targets.

As far as the concept of weird spinners goes, I remember how I was criticized on the NU Forums Gen 5 for defending Armaldo as a spinner; let's not start there again unless I can prove its worth with replays :P