Metagame NP: RU Stage 2 - Lights Out (RUBL drops - see post #73)

phantom

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RU Leader
:ss/tauros: RU Isle of Armor DLC is live! :ss/centiskorch:

First wave of the DLC drops are finally here! With that, tiering will be a little different for the next few months. As the influx of new mons continue to drop down, the power creep will scale up and we’ll see quite a bit of Pokemon fluctuating in viability. In light of this, the council has voted to unban Centiskorch. There were discussions about unbanning more from the RUBL list, but the council believed it would be best to wait until the following month when the more consequential drops will likely occur. This will give us a better chance to gauge how the remaining RUBL would fit into the tier. With the tier being much faster than it was before and with Charizard having its highest usage ever, we believe that Centiskorch should be able to fit in nicely in this meta. At a time when many of the tier’s top defensive mons have moved up, Centiskorch’s ability to check top threats such as Ninetales, Ribombee, and Frosmoth should prove invaluable.

In accordance with our tiering philosophy, we would normally prefer to let things settle for at least two weeks before committing to anymore bans; however, with so many important RU tournaments going on right now, we have to compromise in order to maintain the competitiveness of the tier’s circuit. Before the end of this weekend, we will cast votes on anything in need of an immediate ban. These bans will take place before the start of the next RU open, RU snake, and RU seasonal round. Afterwards, we will continue to monitor the tier and cast more votes if needed. RU is effectively still in beta and will be using council votes to balance the tier for the foreseeable future. Feel free to use this thread to discuss anything relating to the tier. Talk about teams, sets, cores and anything else that you’ve found effective.

Here’s a quick recap of the tier shifts:

New relevant drops from OU/UU
  • :exeggutor:
  • :exeggutor-alola:
  • :miltank:
  • :kangaskhan:
  • :sandslash-alola:
  • :sandslash:
  • :tauros:
  • :lycanroc-midnight:
  • :ditto:
  • :espeon:
  • :heliolisk:
  • :machamp:
  • :ribombee:
  • :xatu:
New rises to OU/UU
  • :scyther:
  • :steelix:
  • :copperajah:
  • :snorlax:
  • :rillaboom:
song
 
Let's get some thoughts going on Heliolisk.

1593643589340.png

Heliolisk @ Life Orb/Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hyper Voice
- Grass Knot/Surf​

It looks like it could be a great breaker overall, able to take advantage of teams that rely heavily on Vaporeon to function. It's coverage allows it to break some standard cores like Vaporeon + Vileplume + Silvally-Steel, and, with the loss of Snorlax, there really isn't a dedicated special wall to come in and wall it unconditionally. Also, it out-speeds Virizion and deals 42-49% with LO Hyper Voice, making it a decent revenge killer that you don't have to dedicate a scarf too.
Overall, it looks to be a nice addition to the tier right now and a potentially good offensive partner for Centiskorch or Salazzle.
 

Mavis

Banned deucer.
Lights out! Brand new NP, brand new drops and rises, and a brand new meta. Let's go through each of the rises and drops, and I'll give my thoughts on how the meta has been impacted and will change.

RISES
:ss/snorlax:
Snorlax's rise is not only heartbreaking to me, but takes away one of RU's best general special sponges. It was also one of the last defensive cornerstones we have against the terrifying Ninetales, so without its greatest enemy, sun based teams can be expected to take a surge in viability. Snorlax also checked other dangerous special attackers, like Frosmoth and Salazzle, who should be expected to be even stronger now. However, not all is bad- I have word from UU that Snorlax is utterly terrible up there, so it should come back down in a month or two. Hang tight, folks.

:ss/steelix:
Steelix was our best physically defensive catch-all, and our best Stealth Rock user. Its defensive presence will be missed in the face of ludicrously powerful Pokemon like Indeedee, Espeon, and Alolan Raichu, all of which look poised to ravage common balance teams that anchor on picks like Vaporeon and Vileplume. Steelix was key to holding off their assault, and without it, balance will suffer greatly.

:ss/copperajah:
Copper was a strange mon, but a great one that will be missed. It was a great way to hold off powerful Psychic-types, and was our only non-Ground-type rocker not named Duraludon. Not as earth shaking a loss as the first two, but balance and bulky offense will greatly miss the elephant.

:ss/rillaboom:
Well, we all knew it was coming, but the grassy monkey departs for OU's hostile shores. Pokemon that benefitted from Grassy Terrain will now no longer have that asset, and counterwise, Pokemon that used to have to run High Horsepower no longer need to. Hitmonlee will miss this thing more than anyone else, I'm sure.

:ss/scyther:
It was a cool offensive pick, but it's gonna suffer greatly in UU with their plethora of fantastic Steel-types. One less U-turn spammer, I suppose. Not really a big loss.

DROPS
:ss/exeggutor:
It can be good, maybe a trick room mon, but Eggy's past issues will continue to plague it. It'll likely be pretty good in NU though.

:ss/exeggutor-alola:
Now this is an exciting one. Drampa has proved just how brutal dragon STAB is in this tier, and that combined with Egg Alola's nuclear Leaf Storm to blow past fairies should make Alolan Egg a terrifying, albeit somewhat fragile, wallbreaker. OTR sets might be cool, but suffer from the lack of Z-moves.

:ss/miltank:
Something else that can hold off Ninetales, albeit not with the same aplomb that lord Snorlax could. Miltank will be a great asset to balance, as it can take on a similar role to Lax, healing and setting Stealth Rock and checking Ninetales + Frosmoth and friends in one slot.

:ss/kangaskhan:
Ehh. Not much to say here. Cool normal-type breaker might be nice in absence of Steelix, but really, why not use Tauros?

:ss/sandslash-alola:
It can spike now, and Rapid Spin in one slot! Hail now has a real powerful abuser. This thing might actually establish itself with roles and sets similar to its SM PU self. It's arguably our best Steel-type, despite the fact that Silvally-Steel might come back in style soon. I've already been beaten and beaten opponents with it, so it's definitely worth trying out for your teams. It's no Steelix, but it's what we've got.

:ss/tauros:
The fearsome bull himself rears his head in RU, as it should become an excellent wallbreaker here. Great Speed, ample coverage, and passable bulk should make Tauros great on offense teams that can support it and remove problem matchups like Vileplume. 110 Speed is nice for getting the jump on tier queen Virizion, too.

:ss/lycanroc-midnight:
Not much to say here. We're probably gonna get one of the better Lycans next shift, but No Guard Stone Edge + Close Combat is nice to get past a lot of random things in this tier.

:ss/ditto:
Uh, it's Ditto. Might be cool for stall, or hyper offense. It's just gonna do Ditto things.

:ss/espeon:
Right off the bat, Espeon hits the ground running and is poised to become one of the most terrifying Pokemon in RU. Great Speed? Check. Few pesky Steel-types to get in its way? Check. Psychic Terrain turning it from a wallbreaker into a world-beating nuke? Check. With a blazing Speed stat that eclipses Virizion and access to an ample variety of sets, namely Choice Specs and Calm Mind, Espeon should come to define RU's post-DLC meta as every team must have an answer to it, lest they fold to it after just a bit of chip.

:ss/heliolisk:
This will be incredibly cool for disrupting common balance, as it can Surf down Ground-types and Volt Switch in Vaporeon. It's very frail, but boy is that Water immunity nice. It also totally blanks non-Toxic Jellicent, so that's also nice. Choice Specs and Life Orb sets, from SM NU, will likely be great here. This one should stick around.

:ss/machamp:
This looks absolutely scary at first until you realize RU is swarmed with powerful special attackers that will tear Machamp to pieces with little to no recourse. It will likely shred balance teams quite mercilessly, but against offense, it will be something close to helpless.

:ss/ribombee:
With few Steel-types to get in its way and Poison-types outside of Vileplume being rare in RU as well, Ribombee should be able to cleave open many a team with its blistering Speed, powerful Moonblast, and Sticky Web access to disrupt foes attempting to dance around its Moonblasts. Ribombee is also faster than Salazzle and can put the poison lizard out of business with a strong Psychic. This should become a premier wallbreaker.

:ss/xatu:
I thought we got rid of Xatu, but turns out the bitch came back. Vileplume will take a hit to this, however, with Rhydon poised to become our best Stealth Rock user, Xatu could be in trouble. It'll still do Xatu things, though, so keep an eye out for it.

METAGAME THOUGHTS
Frankly, I'm as excited as I am scared. Pre-shifts was a very enjoyable meta, but this more offensive meta should be very exciting too. Drampa can now afford to run Cloud Nine, potentially really screwing over Sun-based teams. Courtesy of Alolan Sandslash, Hail and by extension Aurora Veil will likely see a resurgence, so that'll be something to watch out for. Without our two most concrete Steel-types, Dragon, Psychic-, Bug-, and Fairy-type wallbreakers like Indeedee, Raichu Alola, Drampa, Alolan Exeggutor, Espeon, Frosmoth, and Ribombee should take the metagame by storm, ravaging a ton of teams with their powerful attacks. Centiskorch being back is also great news for teams attempting to fend off the fiery climate of the tier, and it should prove to be an excellent wallbreaker once more. I think out of the drops, Espeon and Ribombee will be the most influential and likely to stick around and be strong tier presences. Espeon can wield both its sets with deadly efficiency, and Ribombee effectively has zero switchins, and can set up Webs too. We'll likely see a huge meta shift next month too, and there will likely be some bans here soon. Either way, I've hit the teambuilder today, and will continue to do so as we continue to figure out this new meta.
 
View attachment 259110
Heliolisk @ Life Orb/Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hyper Voice
- Grass Knot/Surf​

Yeah Heliolisk looks fantastic although focus blast might be a bit more menacing for dealing with Magnezone. Don't want Analytic steel beams clapping back at you.
 
View attachment 259110
Heliolisk @ Life Orb/Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hyper Voice
- Grass Knot/Surf​

Yeah Heliolisk looks fantastic although focus blast might be a bit more menacing for dealing with Magnezone. Don't want Analytic steel beams clapping back at you.
You mean Magneton, right? Magnezone is OU.
 
Hey everyone! In this post I want to address some issues within the current meta and what I'd propose as a solution.
ISSUE #1 - Drought/Sun


Personally, I've found instant Sun AKA Drought and it's abusers to be unhealthy for a prolonged amount of time. With the addition of a new sun abuser in Heliolisk and the removal of theoretically the best sun counter, Snorlax, Drought and it's abusers are now insanely hard to deal with. The Bulky waters that attempt to deal with Charizard and Ninetales get smashed by their Grass-type coverage and if that's not enough, they're completely abused by either Vileplume or Leafeon. You may think, hey! We have Miltank that's a decent Ninetales counter right? Wrong. You must keep it healthy at all times because if you let it down to below 88% (one stealth rock damage by the way) it's almost always 2HKO'd by +2 Fire Blast even with Leftovers recovery. Furthermore, the same situation arises for the Poisons or Steels that attempt to counter Vileplume and Leafeon such as Defensive Vileplume, Garbodor, or Silvally-Steel as they are wholey annihilated by Charizard, Ninetales, and newly Heliolisk. Let's actually talk about Heliolisk by the way. Not only does this thing have perfect coverage (thunderbolt, grass knot, focus blast, weather ball) it has an amazing speed tier making it even harder to switch into under sun. Charizard is practically the same thing as Heliolisk but with absolute perfect coverage, recovery, and a Fire STAB nuke under sun. I'm not gonna bother with a wall of calcs because I think I made my point with the analysis.

THE SOLUTION - Ban Drought

I don't think banning Ninetales will help the issue that much as we still have a Drought user in Torkoal and if you want to get spicy even Vulpix. Complex banning Drought and Chlorophyll could work, but Ninetales is still a gigantic threat on it's own with only being checked by a minimal amount of Dragons and Centiskorch. Thus, my proposed solution is to ban Drought from the tier. It's not only noncompetitive but borderline broken as well with a plethora of deadly abusers that take advantage of it. I'd also suggest following in PU's footsteps and banning Heat Rock while you're at it so that Prankster Pokemon like Liepard or Whimsicott don't hop right in to take Drought's place.

ISSUE #2 - Indeedee-F


Indeedee-F has been a forced to be reckoned with ever since the move Expanding Force, 156 BP under Psychic Terrain, was released a couple of weeks ago. Ever since then, people have been scrambling for Dark- and Steel-types in their builder just so that they don't get pummeled by Specs Exanding Force. With three of it's best checks being removed from the tier, Snorlax, Steelix, and Copperajah, I can definitely see Indeedee-F being problematic down the line.

THE SOLUTION - Possible suspect in the future

While yes, Indeedee is definitely a strong wallbreaker and it should probably be suspected in the future, but at the current moment I feel like we have the utilities to deal with her. Xatu re-entered the tier, Claydol has been rising in viability, and our next best Steels (Stunfisk-Galar and Silvally-Steel) can still handle it fairly well. Additionally, we have a ton of viable Dark types such as Sneasel, Drapion, Scrafty, and Malamar that hold off the Expanding Force spam.

ISSUE #3 - Electric Terrain/Raichu-Alola


Ever since Rising Voltage, 182 BP under Electric Terrain (on grounded targets), was brought to RU through DLC, Pincurchin + Raichu-Alola has been a pretty deadly duo. Surge Surfer makes Raichu-Alola literally unable to be out sped outside of like Unburden Accelgor, allowing it to run a Modest nature. Rising Voltage is a disgustingly strong STAB attack that 2HKO's almost everything besides a few resists here and there. It's access to coverage moves such as STAB Psyshock, Surf, Grass Knot, and Focus Blast allows it to beat down almost all Ground-types or other resistances that escape the 2HKO from Rising Voltage.

THE SOLUTION - Ban Raichu-Alola

This one is a little bit harder to shake. There's a decent amount of things that can muscle through Raichu-Alola such as Claydol, Togedemaru, Vikavolt, and Lanturn but even then they have trouble doing their job if Raichu either Nasty Plots or clicks the right coverage option on the switch. I think the easy way out of this is to just ban Raichu-Alola from RU due it being a menace in both the teambuilder and on the battlefield. I think when we get 10-15 new Pokemon next month from the DLC shifts, we can look at unbanning it but as of now I think it's a little too strong for the tier to handle.

ISSUE #4 - Drampa


With Drampa's best checks, Snorlax and Copperajah, exiting the tier, Drampa is now a complete menace. It's strong Choice Specs set paired with it's flawless coverage leaves it being walled by absolutely nothing. Additionally, Drampa can utilize a Calm Mind set with Roost while holding a Chople Berry that's arguably even harder to deal with. It abuses bulky waters which are on every team, simply cannot be walled, and has above average bulky for such a deadly wallbreaker. The only thing that it doesn't have going for it is it's poor speed tier which still can be modified to outpace a good chunk of the tier's slower and bulkier threats. Not going to bother with a solution on this fellow as it's quite obvious that I feel that Drampa needs to be BANNED ASAP.

ISSUES #5, #6, #7, and #8 - Virizion, Espeon, Frosmoth, and Salazzle


I don't want to ramble for too much longer so I'm going to condense these last few threats. I think it's a no brainer that Virizion and Espeon should be banned due to the former's amazing special bulk, phenomenal coverage both physically and specially, and speed tier as well as the latter's raw power, broken ability, and speed tier as well. Frosmoth and Salazzle are Pokemon that I don't think should be banned YET. Frosmoth definitely got a whole lot better when it lost it's literal best counters in Snorlax and Copperajah. However, it still suffers from being outpaced by all Choice Scarfers as well as the lack of coverage moves to beat the Steels that exist in the current meta like Silvally-Steel and Alolan-Sandslash. I've never found Salazzle to be broken as I think there's enough counter play both offensively and defensively.


TL;DR:
Most if not all of these Pokemon should go on the voting block before R2 of RU Open (this Monday).
BAN - Drought, Raichu-Alola, Drampa, Virizion, and Espeon
DON'T BAN - Indeedee-F, Frosmoth, and Salazzle

Please let me know if I missed anything and I'm sorry for this long ass post LOL
 
Last edited:

iLiekMudkipz_

I COULD BE BANNED!
Hey everyone! In this post I want to address some issues within the current meta and what I'd propose as a solution.
ISSUE #1 - Drought/Sun


Personally, I've found instant Sun AKA Drought and it's abusers to be unhealthy for a prolonged amount of time. With the addition of a new sun abuser in Heliolisk and the removal of theoretically the best sun counter, Snorlax, Drought and it's abusers are now insanely hard to deal with. The Bulky waters that attempt to deal with Charizard and Ninetales get smashed by their Grass-type coverage and if that's not enough, they're completely abused by either Vileplume or Leafeon. You may think, hey! We have Miltank that's a decent Ninetales counter right? Wrong. You must keep it healthy at all times because if you let it down to below 88% (one stealth rock damage by the way) it's almost always 2HKO'd by +2 Fire Blast even with Leftovers recovery. Furthermore, the same situation arises for the Poisons or Steels that attempt to counter Vileplume and Leafeon such as Defensive Vileplume, Garbodor, or Silvally-Steel as they are wholey annihilated by Charizard, Ninetales, and newly Heliolisk. Let's actually talk about Heliolisk by the way. Not only does this thing have perfect coverage (thunderbolt, grass knot, focus blast, weather ball) it has an amazing speed tier making it even harder to switch into under sun. Charizard is practically the same thing as Heliolisk but with absolute perfect coverage, recovery, and a Fire STAB nuke under sun. I'm not gonna bother with a wall of calcs because I think I made my point with the analysis.

THE SOLUTION - Ban Drought

I don't think banning Ninetales will help the issue that much as we still have a Drought user in Torkoal and if you want to get spicy even Vulpix. Complex banning Drought and Chlorophyll could work, but Ninetales is still a gigantic threat on it's own with only being checked by a minimal amount of Dragons and Centiskorch. Thus, my proposed solution is to ban Drought from the tier. It's not only noncompetitive but borderline broken as well with a plethora of deadly abusers that take advantage of it. I'd also suggest following in PU's footsteps and banning Heat Rock while you're at it so that Prankster Pokemon like Liepard or Whimsicott don't hop right in to take Drought's place.

ISSUE #2 - Indeedee-F


Indeedee-F has been a forced to be reckoned with ever since the move Expanding Force, 156 BP under Psychic Terrain, was released a couple of weeks ago. Ever since then, people have been scrambling for Dark- and Steel-types in their builder just so that they don't get pummeled by Specs Exanding Force. With three of it's best checks being removed from the tier, Snorlax, Steelix, and Copperajah, I can definitely see Indeedee-F being problematic down the line.

THE SOLUTION - Possible suspect in the future

While yes, Indeedee is definitely a strong wallbreaker and it should probably be suspected in the future, but at the current moment I feel like we have the utilities to deal with her. Xatu re-entered the tier, Claydol has been rising in viability, and our next best Steels (Stunfisk-Galar and Silvally-Steel) can still handle it fairly well. Additionally, we have a ton of viable Dark types such as Sneasel, Drapion, Scrafty, and Malamar that hold off the Expanding Force spam.

ISSUE #3 - Electric Terrain/Raichu-Alola


Ever since Rising Voltage, 182 BP under Electric Terrain (on grounded targets), was brought to RU through DLC, Pincurchin + Raichu-Alola has been a pretty deadly duo. Surge Surfer makes Raichu-Alola literally unable to be out sped outside of like Unburden Accelgor, allowing it to run a Modest nature. Rising Voltage is a disgustingly strong STAB attack that 2HKO's almost everything besides a few resists here and there. It's access to coverage moves such as STAB Psyshock, Surf, Grass Knot, and Focus Blast allows it to beat down almost all Ground-types or other resistances that escape the 2HKO from Rising Voltage.

THE SOLUTION - Ban Raichu-Alola


This one is a little bit harder to shake. There's a decent amount of things that can muscle through Raichu-Alola such as Claydol, Togedemaru, Vikavolt, and Lanturn but even then they have trouble doing their job if Raichu either Nasty Plots or clicks the right coverage option on the switch. I think the easy way out of this is to just ban Raichu-Alola from RU due it being a menace in both the teambuilder and on the battlefield. I think when we get 10-15 new Pokemon next month from the DLC shifts, we can look at unbanning it but as of now I think it's a little too strong for the tier to handle.

ISSUE #4 - Drampa


With Drampa's best checks, Snorlax and Copperajah, exiting the tier, Drampa is now a complete menace. It's strong Choice Specs set paired with it's flawless coverage leaves it being walled by absolutely nothing. Additionally, Drampa can utilize a Calm Mind set with Roost while holding a Chople Berry that's arguably even harder to deal with. It abuses bulky waters which are on every team, simply cannot be walled, and has above average bulky for such a deadly wallbreaker. The only thing that it doesn't have going for it is it's poor speed tier which still can be modified to outpace a good chunk of the tier's slower and bulkier threats. Not going to bother with a solution on this fellow as it's quite obvious that I feel that Drampa needs to be BANNED ASAP.

ISSUES #5, #6, #7, and #8 - Virizion, Espeon, Frosmoth, and Salazzle


I don't want to ramble for too much longer so I'm going to condense these last few threats. I think it's a no brainer that Virizion and Espeon should be banned due to the former's amazing special bulk, phenomenal coverage both physically and specially, and speed tier as well as the latter's raw power, broken ability, and speed tier as well. Frosmoth and Salazzle are Pokemon that I don't think should be banned YET. Frosmoth definitely got a whole lot better when it lost it's literal best counters in Snorlax and Copperajah. However, it still suffers from being outpaced by all Choice Scarfers as well as the lack of coverage moves to beat the Steels that exist in the current meta like Silvally-Steel and Alolan-Sandslash. I've never found Salazzle to be broken as I think there's enough counter play both offensively and defensively.


TL;DR:
Most if not all of these Pokemon should go on the voting block before R2 of RU Open (this Monday).
BAN - Drought, Raichu-Alola, Drampa, Virizion, and Espeon
DON'T BAN - Indeedee-F, Frosmoth, and Salazzle

Please let me know if I missed anything and I'm sorry for this long ass post LOL
We should just ban pinchurchin, besides, theres no way tapu kokos gonna drop to RU.
 
We should just ban pinchurchin, besides, theres no way tapu kokos gonna drop to RU.
I don't think Pincurchin deserves a ban in the slightest. Alolan Raichu is the only Pokemon abusing Electric Terrain. In fact, the only reason Pincurchin is RU to begin with is because of Alolan Raichu. There's a reason why they're on every team.

Personally, I'd hold off on outright banning Alolan Raichu and would opt for a suspect test instead. Personally I haven't found it too hard to deal with, though to be fair my counterplay thus far has been abusing my own terrain with Indeedee-F and Rillaboom. But with the latter gone and the former likely to follow, I wouldn't be surprised to see Alolan Raichu get the ban hammer.
 
I don't think Pincurchin deserves a ban in the slightest. Alolan Raichu is the only Pokemon abusing Electric Terrain. In fact, the only reason Pincurchin is RU to begin with is because of Alolan Raichu. There's a reason why they're on every team.

Personally, I'd hold off on outright banning Alolan Raichu and would opt for a suspect test instead. Personally I haven't found it too hard to deal with, though to be fair my counterplay thus far has been abusing my own terrain with Indeedee-F and Rillaboom. But with the latter gone and the former likely to follow, I wouldn't be surprised to see Alolan Raichu get the ban hammer.
I am in agreement with you overall, but I disagree that Raichu is the only thing abusing electric terrain. Seed abusers are also a prominent force in the meta right now, namely Unburden Lee, and to a lesser extent, Thievul. The wave of Espeons abusing electric seed could be on its way as well, gaining a defensive boost and reducing Knock Offs damage, giving it a great opportunity to start boosting up.
 
Ok so hear me out here please. I’m obviously not a supporter of banning alolan raichu though I will admit rising voltage makes it extremely powerful under terrain. I feel like the solution is quite easy and a simple one. Alochu wasn’t a problem prior to rising voltage being released, and is only an issue due to electric terrain being up, only one mon in this tier has the ability to summon electric terrain as an ability, Pincurchin. If we ban its ability like we have drizzle and are considering doing with drought why not electric surge too. No one would even use this mon if it weren’t for the ability, while raichu is a good mon for the tier without terrain and is used without it.
Second option would be banning rising voltage much like baton pass was banned.
I think either option would be better than banning raichu as there are other mons that abuse terrain for seed unburden purposes and could also cause issues (Espeon) could be pretty damn good with electric seed.
Don’t ban the mouse.
 
Ok so hear me out here please. I’m obviously not a supporter of banning alolan raichu though I will admit rising voltage makes it extremely powerful under terrain. I feel like the solution is quite easy and a simple one. Alochu wasn’t a problem prior to rising voltage being released, and is only an issue due to electric terrain being up, only one mon in this tier has the ability to summon electric terrain as an ability, Pincurchin. If we ban its ability like we have drizzle and are considering doing with drought why not electric surge too. No one would even use this mon if it weren’t for the ability, while raichu is a good mon for the tier without terrain and is used without it.
Second option would be banning rising voltage much like baton pass was banned.
I think either option would be better than banning raichu as there are other mons that abuse terrain for seed unburden purposes and could also cause issues (Espeon) could be pretty damn good with electric seed.
Don’t ban the mouse.
Alolan Raichu is the only problematic user of Rising Voltage in the tier. No Pokemon has the same combination of traits as to make Rising Voltage a problem as Alolan Raichu. Banning Rising Voltage would gimp a lot of mons (mainly Pincurchin) for no reason. It's akin to banning Fisheous Rend in OU; yeah it stops Dracovish from being a problem, but it also hard nerfs Arctovish, a Pokemon that's long been considered unviable in OU. Banning Electric Surge I feel isn't the right way either since I don't think Terrain teams are the problem. Alolan Raichu is. Banning Alolan Raichu is akin to banning Venusaur in UU imo. Both are abusers of a certain style of offensive team that, through a combination of their backbreaking power and blazing speed, are able to break much of the metagame. As Venusaur was banned in UU and not sun (and sun is still a viable playstyle in UU), I think Alolan Raichu should be banned and not Rising Voltage/Electric Surge.

All of that being said, I know it's not a good idea to use other tiers as an example of actions that should be taken in this tier (or any tier). All tiers are different, and each tier tends to have a distinct metagame. In this specific instance however, I feel that the situations between Venusaur UU and Alolan Raichu RU are similar enough to where I think it's a good idea to look at what that tier did and try to emulate it. Just my two cents, however.
 

EviGaro

is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
RU Leader
hlelo everyone, so big round coming up.

The RU Council voted on eight pokemons this weekend: Drampa, Exeggutor-Alola, Indeedee-F, Machamp, Ninetales, Raichu-Alola, Salazzle, and Virizion. Thank you to all who discussed this here, in the room, or on the discord, it did help bring a few things to light. Also, atomicllamas opted to abstain from this round of voting (but still voted no ban on Ninetales), however since the threshold for a ban is 50+1, a quickban on any mon still required 5 votes. Here are the results:

1593997071576.png


Five mons have thus been banned: Drampa, Indeedee-F, Ninetales, Raichu-Alola and Virizion. Tagging Marty and The Immortal to remove them from the ladder, thank you both. Exeggutor-Alola, Machamp and Salazzle did not receive the necessary five votes and thus are still RU. Here are the reasonings for each banned mon:

- Virizion’s mixed set has served as one of the tier’s top wallbreakers. It’s incredible speed and coverage backed by high powered stabs makes it nearly impossible to counter outside of a handful of niche poison types. Virizion’s bulk also allows it to take turns off of defensive Ground- and Water-types, giving it plenty of opportunities to swap in and wallbreak. Additionally, Virizion is capable of employing a wide variety of sets including CM and SD that all vary in counters. Given how overwhelming and difficult it is for many teams to check mixed sets, let alone all the rest, Virizion has been banned from RU.

- Raichu-Alola after gaining access to Rising Voltage has accelerated both its sweeping and wallbreaking capabilities. Under electric terrain, Raichu undercuts all revenge killing attempts while having the raw power to 2HKO nearly the entire tier. With Steelix moving up to UU, Surf is no longer as necessary as it was before, allowing Raichu to use Grass Knot to break mons such as Gastrodon that once served as counters. Its extremely limited offensive and defensive counter play has been deemed far too overpowered for the tier to handle. As a side note: the reason we chose to ban Raichu is because we make bans that focus on eliminating the abuser first. If Electric Surge continues to cause problems outside of Raichu-Alola, we may consider a more sweeping ban in the future and may undo the Raichu ban following said decision.

- Drampa’s astounding power, great set of abilities, and movepool with a well-rounded defensive stat spread has made it into a phenomenal wallbreaker. In a tier sorely lacking in viable Steel- and Fairy-types, 135 Special Attack Draco Meteors are evidently difficult to deal with. With a movepool capable of dealing with every type of resist as well as STAB Hyper Voice to deal with every viable Fairy-type, there’s no defensive threat in the tier Drampa isn’t capable of adapting to. Outside of blowing up cores with its specs set, Drampa can also utilize bulky CM sets with Roost that allow it to exploit Protect defensive cores that can hold off specs, while also amplifying its number of switch-in opportunities. Despite being slow, Drampa is simply impossible to counter while having access to great resists and bulk to offset its one flaw.

- The DLC gave Ninetales the one last tool it needed in its arsenal, adding Scorching Sands to threaten the rising usage of Coalossal being used to counter it, on top of being a nice ohko on the Salazzle switch to put some offensive pressure on it. Worth noting also, the rise of Snorlax to UU has left balances that are more susceptible to it without one of the best available counter to it, as obviously water types are dangerously unreliable versus its +2 immediate Solar Beam. Ninetales does have issues in a faster metagame though, its speed is starting to be less desirable than it was at the start of the generation, and speed boosting is trickier to use with how good Scorching Sands can be. Still, its usable bulk and all around oppressive power made it considered too much for the RU tier as it is, which might get revisited in the coming months depending on shifts. Also, we would like to stress that this is not a Drought issue, Ninetales on its own is considered problematic due to the shifts in the metagame, but Torkoal hardly has the same potential and Sun isn't something the RU Council considers too much at the moment.

- Indeedee-F has a lot of the same issues Indeedee-M had previously, and we wanted to give this form a test run to see if the same things would happen. Turns out, it did! Expanding Force is an extremely constraining presence in building, whether it's from Specs or Scarf, and losing multiple solid checks to it has made it even more difficult to counter without resorting to dark types that are at risk from its coverage anyway. There isn't a lot more to say, it's essentially a slightly less good version of an extremely broken mon that fell in a more favourable meta for it.

As we noted in the Ninetales reasoning, it's important to note that those bans might be reversed in the near future, depending largely on how drastic the upcoming tier shift is going to be for the RU tier. Still, the importance of the RU Open forced our hand this month, and we won' t hesitate to act again if something becomes dangerously unbalanced in the following weeks. So as usual, please keep the discussion going!
 
"And thus, with its partner in crime banned and the only other real benefactors from its terrian being niche at best (save Hitmonlee, who usually preferred to run Reckless anyway), poor Pincurchin's usage dropped off a cliff. It will likely never see the light of RU again."

:ss/pincurchin:
R.I.P. Pincurchin
2020-2020
 
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Mavis

Banned deucer.
Right now I'm sitting at my computer waiting for Aldo to send in his week 6 lineup, so I'll give some quick thoughts on some of these bans.

Drampa: For reasons similar to Goodra's ban in March, this tier just isn't equipped to handle its Draco Meteors. The brute force of Choice Specs muscling its way past everything in the tier is absurd in and of itself, but Drampa's excellent defensive typing also allows it to wield other sets too. Calm Mind + Roost sets with Life Orb, Leftovers, or a pinch berry like Chople or Roseli along with its choices of coverage make dealing with Drampa an absolute nightmare. Snorlax's departure, to me, was what pushed Drampa over the edge for the time being. Its choice of ability is a luxury not many Pokemon get, either, and IMO was one of the most glossed-over aspects of what made Drampa so terrifying. Cloud Nine stopped the fearsome Ninetales dead cold and halted the brutal assault of Sun-based teams, Sap Sipper renders Grass moves totally useless as a momentum drain, and since there are some pretty damn spammable Grass-types in this tier, like Vileplume and Rotom-Mow, this can be quite useful to get a free switch to cleanly Roost or set up a Calm Mind. Those go without even mentioning Berserk, which allows Drampa to stockpile boosts against defensive teams that can't punish it easily, as it Roosts in and out of Berserk range. Drampa's nearly limitless potential was only offset by its pathetic Speed, making it hard to switch into battle against offense. Regardless, Drampa leaving should ease pressure on our few remaining Steel-types.

Indeedee-F: Honestly, there isn't much to say here that everyone didn't already cover when Indeedee-M hit the chopping block about a week ago. Brutally strong Expanding Force proving too much for our small pool of Psychic resists to handle, coverage to dismantle those that can switch in, and an excellent Speed tier when equipped with a Choice Scarf.

Ninetales: This one has been coming for a long time, and even as early as March I knew a Ninetales ban would be inevitable. So many shifts have slowly led to Sun becoming more prevalent within the tier- Gigalith, Mantine, Goodra all leaving the tier, Charizard's addition, then Torkoal's re-entry, and now Snorlax's departure. These Pokemon all did very well vs Sun, and even with the Shiftry ban and initial departure of Torkoal months ago, Ninetales persevered. Balance teams mightily struggle vs Ninetales, who can completely change its counterplay with just a couple of move switches. If it picks Scorching Sands over Toxic- congratulations, your Coalossal is now dead, and furious +2 Ninetales is now staring down your chipped defensive core. If it takes Energy Ball over Solarbeam, stalling out Sun turns with Protect Vaporeon is no longer an option. Ninetales had a select few counters, and most besides Snorlax could be beaten with a choice of Toxic or Scorching Sands. Now with Snorlax gone, Ninetales often has its way with common balance and bulky offense teams, which will often greatly struggle with letting it in for free. Even traditional Fire-type checks, like bulky waters and even the recently added Centiskorch, could be circumvented by Ninetales' movepool. Overall, I think building will be far easier with Tales gone, and I won't just be able to look at perfectly good teams and go "this loses to tales lol".

Raichu-Alola: I voted no ban on Alolan Raichu last April, when it very clearly wasn't broken. Now, it's a different story. Access to a devastating Rising Voltage and the rise of Pincurchin to complement this make Raichu nigh unwallable. Steelix leaving means it can opt for Grass Knot to trash Gastrodon, which used to check it well, and it runs train on all kinda of team archetypes. Sure, it's frail and hard to switch into battle, but overall, this thing dumpsters offense like nothing else right now with a little bit of team support. This all has gone without saying that it gains an absolutely nuclear Expanding Force when partnered with Indeedee, rendering it even more terrifying.

Virizion: First ORAS, then SM, now SS. It took three whole generations, but the grassy deer that has come to define our tier's identity has finally been given the boot- at least for now. Air Slash was a gift from the gods, bringing Virizion's mixed and Calm Mind sets to the fore in a way previous iterations of it hadn't seen. With the ability to essentially pick and choose what beat it, Virizion was a massive, massive threat, and so many offensive mons lived and died by being able to match its Speed tier. Virizion completely defined pre-DLC RU near the end of its life cycle, and I look forward to seeing it in the tier again. However, it's too much right now. With the ability to pick and choose its counters, Virizion can render usual checks like Deciduye, Dhelmise, Vileplume, and Garbodor within KO range after boosts. Between it's 3 different sets, each having wildly different answers, plus the potency of the mixed set to choose between a fantastic set of moves, Virizion could basically always have the potential to beat you.

Predictions for the coming meta: Raichu-Alola being banned should make Pincurchin usage fall off the same cliff it worked so hard to climb up in the first place, that's the first and most obvious hit. Full Sun, formerly viable, takes a massive hit with the departure of Ninetales, and conversely, Hail and with extension Aurora Veil offense should drastically increase in potency. Steelix and both Indeedees being gone mean lord Linoone is back in business, and anyone who played SM should have nightmares of it shredding their balance teams after clicking Belly Drum under Veil. Drampa being gone along with Indeedee eases a lot of pressure on our Steel-types to do their jobs better now, as they can now dedicate themselves to checking the remaining offensive threats, most crucially Espeon. Espeon should become a massive, massive threat in the coming weeks, right up there with the other big dogs like Salazzle. Rotom-Mow should be back in vogue now that Drampa and Ninetales are gone, as it'll likely be needed to handle the uptick of Water-types that can now breathe a sigh of relief Raichu and Drampa will no longer be terrorizing them. Claydol's usage should diminish, as its primary source of attraction was being a very solid check to both Psychic-types. Hitmonlee also takes a huge hit in viability, as it now has no clear catalyst for its Unburden sweeps until someone brings Thwackey to RU Snake and half the playerbase copies them. However, Psychic-types being gone is good news for it as well. In terms of what wasn't banned- Eggy-Alola is a good replacement for Drampa, albeit replacing Calm Mind with an anti-offense OTR set. However, its firepower is still amazing, and this one comes with a strong Leaf Storm to shred those pesky specially defensive Vaporeon that got cheeky switching in. Machamp should be a super powerful wallbreaker, as essentially nothing can safely come in on those Guts-boosted attacks. Lastly, Salazzle should just keep doing Salazzle things. Overall, I think these bans were exactly what the tier needed, in terms of removing sources of pressure from the builder and letting balance teams breathe a little easier. That being said, I think Virizion, Ninetales, and Drampa could all be components of a healthy tier, with even Indeedee or Raichu being possible should UU give us the right tools to handle them. I look forward to seeing Goodra in the tier again too, as UU's drops should give us some things to handle it. I look forward to building in this tier the coming weeks, and will share teams and make a couple videos in the meantime.
 
Soooooo we've been through the bans and gotta say, well done to the council!
I'm overall positive when it comes to them, because they lend some serious balance to the RU metagame after copper lixlax rose to UU.

my thoughts on the bans

drampa: this guy was waaay too powerful for the tier. choice specs draco meteor hits like a train and after the meta's best steels and best specially defensive mon left, it can overwhelm most teams with sheer power. Calm mind roost sets can blow through whole teams and as such, I wont be sorry to see it leave.

Indeedee-F: psychic terrain boosted expanding force. Nuff said.

Ninetales: I dont know about this one. A lot of people are saying that sun is overbearing but ninetales already had its checks with charizard and more recently, centiskorch. Even a scarfer could take it down after a bit of chip. That's not to say this wasn't a premier threat in the metagame. It's right up there with the big boys, easily an A-tier mon. However, it has it's own problems and can be shut down. Then again, hearing the tales (see what I did there???) Of it 6-0 sweeping other teams, maybe this was for the best.

Alolan Raichu: rising voltage turned this thing from a top-tier threat into a game breaking surfer. Ridiculous damage output under terrain, higher speed than scarfers under terrain with surge surfer, there's very less that can reliably check this mon. Oh, and not to mention fantastic coverage and setup options as well. I miss using it, easily my favorite mon from the tier, but this guy absolutely needed to be banned. Sorry Raichu.

Virizion: goodbye you piece of trash, you were a parasite, eating away at RU's soul. Hope hell goes well.

So, overall very happy with the bans. Hopefully they help the tier grow better.

Now. For my
TOP META THREATS!!!!
DUN DUN DUUUNNNNN!!!


I'm only going to speak about the newly dropped pokemon in this one, plan to make another post about the older mons that got better.

1- ESPEON- this is the definition of a top threat. great stats, decent movepool, can't be crippled by status, somehow offers decent utility on HO, the list goes on. A very exciting pokemon in the new metagame, and without the common steels to check it, this is going to define the metagame of RU. Is it ban material?? Probably not, it has bad bulk, but it might overwhelm the tier purely on offensive merit.
it can run a variety of items, such as specs, light clay, life orb, and so on. definitely up there with the charizard and salazzles of RU.

2-TAUROS- it's looking like a great wallbreaker at this point in the metagame with sheer force-life orb boosted hits.it has manageable bulk so it's not a glass cannon and 110 is a great speed tier. Quite vulnerable to most scarfers tho. And it's crippled if it gets burnt, but nevertheless a solid pokemon in RU.

3-ALOLAN EXEGGUTOR- this is monstrous power. No safe switch-ins except for immunities, ridiculously high power output, this thing is an absolute terror. Again, up there with espeon as one of the big boyz of the meta, and thoroughly deserves it. The fact that it was put up for ban so early is a testament to how good it is. Have used it a bit and am not disappointed at all. Kinda slow, but hey, you cant be perfect, right???

4-ALOLAN SANDSLASH- it came to this meta at the right time. Now that ninetales has been banned, hail's viability is going to receive a huge boost, and alolaslash is going to benefit greatly from it. A great hail ability in slush rush, no direct competition for a hail team slot(atleast till arctozolt gets slush rush) means that this ice hedgehog is going to be a staple on hail teams. However, its viability doesnt stop there. It's a very good rocks setter with decent bulk and good attack, so it's quite good even outside of hail. I've used it a couple of times on various teams, and suffice to say it does the job. Unfortunately, it does have quite a few flaws. While the steel typing helps handle it's terrible ice typing(defensively), it also gives it 2 quad-weaknesses to 2 popular types in the metagame, namely fire and fighting, both with meta defining pokemon to their name. Outside of hail, it's speed is quite lacking as well, which doesn't bode well for any ice type. These factors mean that it won't be as great as the 3 mons presented earlier, but it should still be a valuable addition to any team, and definitely a great RU pokemon.

that's all from me for now, although i definitely want to talk about a few more pokemon in the RU metagame soon. I'm looking forward to those, but as of now, this has been flareblitzkreig, signing off.

Cheers.
 
Hello all, I'd like to talk about something that I and quite a sizeable amount of other RU players believe to be a potent, potentially problematic force in the current metagame.
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Linoone.
Despite being largely mediocre for the majority of its tenure in this generation, upon the advent of Steelix's departure, it more or less instantly became a force to be dealt with. Furthermore, a majority of the recent meta changes/bans haven't hurt it in the slightest, and some changes have even benefited Linoone, be it directly or otherwise (For example, the aforementioned Steelix moving up to the UU tier, and even Ninetales' ban increasing Aurora Veil's viability enabling Linoone further by easing setup). Not to mention it has great coverage options in Stomping Tantrum, Seed Bomb, and Throat Chop, all of which can be exchanged liberally depending on team structure.

What's really the kicker pushing it over the edge in my opinion is the bans of both Psychic Surge users - Indeedee-M, and Indeedee-F. These two would essentially just switch in on a predicted Espeed and proceed to cockblock it for the whole game; with them gone, Linoone can freely go to town.


Not much in this metagame stops its rampage; the (albeit not limited) checks it has such as Foul Play Porygon-2, Silvally-Steel, Alolan Sandslash, Specs Duraludon, (and a few more) are all inherently flawed as checks due to two main reasons:

- They cannot deal with it if Linoone is supplemented with screens/veil support (P2, Steelvally, Fighting-types)
- They falter to its coverage/cannot deal with it if it's set up (Fighting-types, Rhydon, Steelvally, Sandslash-A, Decidueye, Vileplume, Ghost-types)


As shown above, Linoone is very difficult to handle defensively (outwith some niche unaware users/ditto on stall-ish builds but stall is very hard to pull off well rn). It's definitely a staple pick on all forms of screens HO right now due to its sheer destructiveness and apparent immunity to offensive pressure due to its high speed and access to a +2 priority move.

All in all, Linoone's ability to inconsequentially wreck teams at any stage of the game is something that I believe is pretty sus. I'll leave it at that.
Thank you all for your time.

Some may say that the issue lies in Aurora Veil/Dual Screens, but this argument isn't exactly the strongest due to the fact that Linoone can just set up on passive pokemon like Xatu or Claydol after a sac or whatever and then just drum up and kick your shit in (I will agree with the notion that it is one of the best benefactors of screens, however)
 
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Hello all, I'd like to talk about something that I and quite a sizeable amount of other RU players believe to be a potent, potentially problematic force in the current metagame.
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Linoone.
Despite being largely mediocre for the majority of its tenure in this generation, upon the advent of Steelix's departure, it more or less instantly became a force to be dealt with. Furthermore, a majority of the recent meta changes/bans haven't hurt it in the slightest, and some changes have even benefited Linoone, be it directly or otherwise (For example, the aforementioned Steelix moving up to the UU tier, and even Ninetales' ban increasing Aurora Veil's viability enabling Linoone further by easing setup). Not to mention it has great coverage options in Stomping Tantrum, Seed Bomb, and Throat Chop, all of which can be exchanged liberally depending on team structure.

What's really the kicker pushing it over the edge in my opinion is the bans of both Psychic Surge users - Indeedee-M, and Indeedee-F. These two would essentially just switch in on a predicted Espeed and proceed to cockblock it for the whole game; with them gone, Linoone can freely go to town.


Not much in this metagame stops its rampage; the (albeit not limited) checks it has such as Foul Play Porygon-2, Silvally-Steel, Alolan Sandslash, Specs Duraludon, (and a few more) are all inherently flawed as checks due to two main reasons:

- They cannot deal with it if Linoone is supplemented with screens/veil support (P2, Steelvally, Fighting-types)
- They falter to its coverage/cannot deal with it if it's set up (Fighting-types, Rhydon, Steelvally, Sandslash-A, Decidueye, Vileplume, Ghost-types)


As shown above, Linoone is very difficult to handle defensively (outwith some niche unaware users/ditto on stall-ish builds but stall is very hard to pull off well rn). It's definitely a staple pick on all forms of screens HO right now due to its sheer destructiveness and apparent immunity to offensive pressure due to its high speed and access to a +2 priority move.

All in all, Linoone's ability to inconsequentially wreck teams at any stage of the game is something that I believe is pretty sus. I'll leave it at that.
Thank you all for your time.

Some may say that the issue lies in Aurora Veil/Dual Screens, but this argument isn't exactly the strongest due to the fact that Linoone can just set up on passive pokemon like Xatu or Claydol after a sac or whatever and then just drum up and kick your shit in (I will agree with the notion that it is one of the best benefactors of screens, however)
I like the fact that linoone is finally a force in this meta,and you phrased the reasons for that very well. However when steelix most probably returns next month, what do you think linoone's niche will end up being????
 
So, I was dabbing with aurora veil recently, and the playstyle is really strong, to say the least. Many pokemon abuse this really well (linoone is specially noteworthy), but a mon I was not expecting to be that good on veil is Espeon
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This thing hits insanely hard with specs while having inmense utility thanks to magic bounce and trick. Under veil, it can resist hits like darkest lariat from bewear, knock off from scarfty and drapion, potentially KOing them or crippling them with specs.
I don't think it is inherently broken, but it is a menace and worth keeping an eye on
 

Nat

this game sucks
is a Tiering Contributor
it's been a minute since i've been around the way but there's definitely something I wish to sound off about banning. It's the slimy cheese rat known as Linoone. i've seen some mumblings about our situation and think outlining where I believe we're at could be beneficial. So..what changed from a few months ago, where I wrote linoone is fine for now?

We lost a big trio in keeping linoone in check. Indeedee-F was voted out in the recent council vote. This was definitely one of our best linoone stops, being our only form of psychic terrain. Unless anyone was -800 iq and running air balloon indeedee, terrain rendered it useless. We also lost Steelix, by far the best traditional wall in terms of handling a fully setup linoone. I think max defensive took a solid 50-something from +6 stomping tantrum. Lastly, we voted to ban ninetales, which really shocked me. Nonetheless, tales was easily the best deterrent to veil since it automatically cancelled out the necessary setup weather. While not directly affecting linoone, veil is pretty much the bread and butter to linoones threatening presence. It could be argued that without tales, veil is the chief archetype linoone can triumph in.

So with those huge pillars of linoone-defense out of the way, what do we have left? The most offensive answer to thwart linoone would be ditto. I'm a fan of ditto myself, but many people have trouble fitting ditto on consistent teams down here. I wouldn't call it impossible to pair linoone with a silvally-ghost or a similar ghost sweeper, though. You'd think this would be fine since after killing their linoone you can just switch, and then copy the setup ghost. I'd argue it isn't so simple. IE, a good player could recognize this and switch from their +6 linoone into their ghost instead of sacking to the copied espeed. This then leaves the linoone user w/ not only great momentum but also their own linoone in the back should their silvally-ghost be copied. This is just 1 scenario, and it's merely to illustrate that ditto isn't a perfect counter in building to the linoone problem.

More traditional means would see you using hard walls to deter linoone. After all, plenty of things survive an ohko after +6, right? Below will be calcs of anything half-viable that live linoone hits. Keep in mind how many mons are off of this list.
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bewear: 305-359 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Duraludon: 212-250 (75.4 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 196-232 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Steel: 199-234 (60.1 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 306-360 (86.4 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 246-290 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 243-286 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 272-320 (79 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eldegoss: 295-348 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 204-244 (51.7 - 61.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO post lefties
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Pyukumuku: 78-92 (24.8 - 29.2%) -- it's living dawg
Sableye destroys linoone, and is the ender of all things cheese rat.
It is also worth noting that scarf duraludon would beat linoone, if at +0 spatk.
Haunter could be scarf and deal with as well. Drednaw scarf takes like 60. This is not a hard pokemon to wittle, though.

This is everything listed on the VR currently that lives a hit from linoone. You'd be surprised to learn that even things like 0hp togedemaru are a guaranteed death to espeed. I also would like to note that jolly is a very viable option to tantrum things like silvally-steel. One thing I also didn't list above is more of an offensive stop in rotom/gourgeist-small. Both of these however would be outsped by jolly, save for scarf rotom variants. I also am not attempting to state linoone can use 5 moves, it's just that it could have any collection. Frankly, I would drop throat chop currently. You miss out on only dhelmise/decidueye/gourgeist-small/corsola. All of these are middling usage to purely niche. Seed bomb/speed/tantrum is fantastic coverage.

Looking back to the calcs above, look how many of them barely etch by with a sliver of their hp remaining. I'd classify bewear, shuca duraludon (which is frankly insanely niche as is), plume, weezIng, eldegoss and torkoal into this category. All it would take over the course of the game is slight chip, whether in the form of coming into hazards, minimal damage, or weather effects (think hail.) I would hardly call these truly reliable and consistent stops to linoone, given that linoone setting up is often nearing the end-game. Stuff happens. You need them to take a hit. Maybe they come in on rocks and take 2 hits of hail, and you wouldn't think twice about it. Sableye, p2, quagsire, and pyukumuku are the 4 standouts. I'd argue they're all quite easily abused. The last two are especially so. Everything I've written so far is to pretty much say there's a dearth of consistent, and more importantly viable, offensive and defensive countermeasures to a +6 linoone. So, we know that you're often screwed when linoone indeed reaches an attack stat in the thousands. But what about getting there? After all, berries were nerfed to 33%. It's avoidable, right?

Well, not exactly. I'd argue there are several archetypes and methods linoone can use to setup. Veil is the most obvious and brutal if you aren't prepared. But there's also methods like screens xatu, memento mons, trick spam, yawn spam, etc. When the chief goal is to provide entirely for one mon to setup, you are afforded great room for creativity. I'd say they're definitely all usable, and this is only because of the wincon they seek to produce. If you're at a certain level of building, you can even just place it on seemingly normal teams that take advantage of the meta in a way that enables linoone to have opportunities. I'm not going to go into insane depths since RU open is indeed ongoing, but most of this should be easily imaginable.

2 conclude, linoone is broken. It destroys most of the viable meta, with a specialty in destroying the generally accepted best mons of the meta. Finding opportunities to consistently setup isn't an insurmountable challenge, and we lost our most viable forms of dealing with it in essentially one fell swoop. While it's understood that we'll receive steelix in a few weeks, that's like 3-4 rounds of ru open. It hardly adds anything to the meta, and I'd urge my friends on the council to push for its removal. I would go so far as to say that if you're currently in ru open, there's almost no drawback to using linoone in your sets, even multiple times. Inconsistent jank largely makes up proper counterplay available to us, which is often a burden in its own way to use.
 
Hey guys, I'm back. I said I wanted to talk about a few more pokemon in the meta, and well, here they are:

1. LINOONE- there's been a lot of talk about it, and you're probably getting weary, but this thing is an absolute monster in the meta now. Have done a bit of ladder with it and it dismantles teams single-handedly. Now usually I would state a few counters, but unfortunately with the departure of the steels, it's free to click belly drum+speed freely. Add seed bomb to handle all the bulky waters and throat chop for the ghosts and you've got yourself a world beater. the only think that comes close to checking this is sableye, and that's cuz it can taunt it or prankster burn. Again, not gonna go in-depth since other posts already cover it, but not mentioning it would be cardinal sin.

2. RIBOMBEE- another exciting mon that dropped from UU. However, instead of being unhealthy for the meta, ribombee feels like a good burst of versatility. With sky-high speed and acceptable Sp.Atk, it gives us another option for a quiver dancer, a field that had previously been occupied by frosmoth. That's not all though, as it is great with choice specs as a wallbreaker and can set up sticky web, courtesy of it's high speed. That's not to say it doesnt have checks and counters tho. Charizard completely shuts it down and a slew of of other fires do that well too. Poison type scarfers such as drapion pose a great threat to it due to it's low bulk as well. In conclusion, ribombee is a great option for any player and I'd recommend checking it out.

3. FROSMOTH- speaking of a quiver dancer, here's one that can destroy your whole team with one twirl. Since the best specially defensive wall(snorlax) and the prominent steels of the meta left, it's got much easier to set-up sweep with frosmoth. It's a tried and tested mon that has showed why it deserves to be on top of RU and will keep doing things the same way. However, it does require a lot of support to bring in, but the reward is totally worth it. One for the more experienced players but still great.

4. HELIOLISK- the new Raichu-Alola. It doesn't get surge surfer, so it wont be as broken as the surfing mouse, but a great offensive option nonetheless. Great Sp.Atk, great speed, great coverage, what's not to love?? With dry skin it gains a water immunity which allows more safe switch-ins against the ever present vaporeons and jellicents of RU. Alternatively, you could also go with solar power to make it a threatening sweeper under sun (tho sun is kinda niche at this moment, but always a good option).

OBSERVATIONS OF NEW META:

- RU is clearly geared offensively at this moment, with our best defensive mons leaving and multiple offensive threats dropping from OU/UU. Now, defensive mons like vaporeon, jellicent and xatu are still extremely good, but with so many sweepers around the balance is clearly in offense's favor.
- there's a weird trend of (I'm coining a new term now,) solo-sweepers, which are pokemon with the ability to solo the opponents whole team with one turn of set-up. Pokemon like calm mind espeon, belly drum linoone, quiver dance frosmoth and ribombee and so on are blasting through whole teams after setting up once. This is mostly due to the lack of good defensive options to handle these mons in the tier and the high power level of these sweepers.
- another trend of the metagame is that choice scarfers are turning pretty much mandatory at this point, with so many sweepers and breakers around, having an extremely fast revenge killer is very important and can save the team from certain doom. Interesting fact nonetheless.
- people suddenly seem to be branching out with their defogger options in the current stage of RU. Previously, charizard seemed to be the major defogger of the meta, but more recently dhelmise, xatu, turtonator, rotom-mow and so on are using rapid spin or defog to clear hazards.has this caused a drop in viability for charizard?? In fact, it has not as charizard is being used in various ways offensively. It is still a great choice for a deffoger, but it has somehow gained a better offensive presence in the tier.

That's all from me, if anything else interests me I'll be sure to post it on this thread.
Cheers,
Flareblitzkreig
 
RU is clearly geared offensively at this moment, with our best defensive mons leaving and multiple offensive threats dropping from OU/UU. Now, defensive mons like vaporeon, jellicent and xatu are still extremely good, but with so many sweepers around the balance is clearly in offense's favor.
I think another contributing factor to this is the fact that many of our defensive answers lack reliable recovery. Claydol, Mudsdale, Rhydon, Coalossal, and more all rely on Leftovers for recovery (or in the case of Coalossal, lack recovery all together). This leaves them very prone to being worn down and eventually overcome by the sweepers. This can be alleviated with wish support from Vaporeon, Aromatisse, and to a lesser extent Xatu, but it still remains a problem. Furthermore, a lot of the defensive Pokemon we have are pretty passive, leaving them prone to being set-up on.

there's a weird trend of (I'm coining a new term now,) solo-sweepers, which are pokemon with the ability to solo the opponents whole team with one turn of set-up. Pokemon like calm mind espeon, belly drum linoone, quiver dance frosmoth and ribombee and so on are blasting through whole teams after setting up once. This is mostly due to the lack of good defensive options to handle these mons in the tier and the high power level of these sweepers.
I can definitely attest to this. Back when I was using a Psychic-Spam HO, I would just auto-lose if Frosmoth or Ribombee got up a Quiver Dance. Of course, HO is a very squishy archetype, but the point still stands. Even recently, I just lost to a Curse Unburden Hitmonlee when most of my team was still healthy. l I imagine we'll see an uptick in Ditto usage for this exact reason (It won't help against Unburden Hitmonlee but shh.). It's usually seen on stall and HO builds, but I could imagine balance teams also benefitting greatly from its presence. It not only stops your team from getting swept but can also potentially counter-sweep.

The name of the game now is offense. You have Pokemon like Machamp and Magneton that lack many switch-ins. You have sweepers that can easily steamroll teams if given the chance. You have Aurora Veil, which can give those sweepers that chance. You have two fantastic Web setters in the tier (Ribombee for a HO playstyle, and Vikavolt for a more bulky-offense approach) that open the door to even more offensive threats to punch holes. We do have some very good defensive Pokemon like Porygon2 and Vaporeon that, in a vacuum, can handle these threats. But with how powerful the offensive Pokemon are, they'll inevitably cave outside of like, hardcore stall teams. It'll be interesting to see how the metagame develops from here.
 

EviGaro

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So, this was probably very expected, and as soon as the last slate went up we all kind of knew it would come down to this sooner rather than later, but this weekend the RU Council decided to hold a vote on Linoone and unanimously voted to ban it from the RU Tier.

While Linoone's rise seems sudden, there's a couple of good reasons why we all have our concerns with it in the current metagame. First off, Steelix rising to UU left a huge mark on the metagame, as losing the primary bulky steel that could reasonably apply some offensive pressure is inevitably going to do. Secondly, the DLC gave us even more troubles, as offensive threats like Ninetales and Indeedee became even more problematic, so they both had to go according to most people involved within the community. All of this really helps Linoone, as it removed basically all the common counters to it. Steelix was always in its way, even with Tantrum and a setup, Ninetales was the main reason why Veil really struggled to take off as a playstyle, and Indeedee's psychic terrain made its priority troublesome as a sweeper. Without any of this, the metagame's search for answers is much, much more difficult, and a lot of the offensive pressure that can resist a hit are struggling to do anything else that is not checking Linoone. For example, here are the calcs on Duraludon and Drednaw, both of which have been rising as scarfers:

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Drednaw: 207-244 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Duraludon: 169-199 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is about the "best" offensive counterplay you can do vs Linoone if you want to stay within the realm of what's fairly standard in the tier. Other options like Dbond Froslass, Scarf Rotom are possible, but far less useful in the current metagame to be incredibly worthy. Defensively, you are stuck with mainly two mons, Porygon 2 and Sableye. Both of them are quite good, but even so P2's job within a game can always plausibly leave it at risk, and Sableye shouldn't be mandatory, like it shouldn't have been for Slurpuff. Due to the lack of sturdy checks on almost all playstyles bar hard stall, the good coverage, amazing priority that keeps getting better and the screens setters that keep being better, the Council thus voted to unanimously ban Linoone from the RU metagame.

Tagging Marty and The Immortal to remove Linoone from the RU ladder, thank you both again!
 

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