Milotic is the only viable mixed wall of a water type in UU (its mixed bulk can also withstand assaults in OU, just that it gets eclipsed by the omnipresent Toxapex), especially with Marvel Scale activated and this is not difficult to achieve with Flame Orb. It's an under-appreciated mon and most people don't see its value. When I mean it shouldn't be RU, I am saying Milotic is under-appreciated and deserves more usage.
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Metagame NP: RU Stage 2 - Lights Out (September shifts, Heracross banned)
- Thread starter phantom
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Ok I'm back to present my takes on the new pokemon that have dropped to RU.
1.
barraskewda is the best offensive RU water after sharpedo's ban and boy does this guy hit hard. 123/136 offense and speed is amazing and it has a great movepool to boot. The recent addition of flip turn has given it amazing pivoting capabilities and hard chip on anything that doesn't have water Absorb. The rest of its movepool is respectable too with crunch, psychic fangs, ice fang and close Combat giving it plenty of options. However, it does have it's checks, such as the aforementioned bulky waters and first impression golisopod. CB sets may also be revenge killed and while life orb does alleviate this, it also reduces barraskewda's already poor longevity. However, the fact that it can function as a breaker and cleaner at the same time with those offensive capabilities definitely puts barraskewda in the upper echelons of RU.
2.
cancer antelope has returned to torment the tier. This piece of crap has come back and has already put itself among the top-tier RU mons in this meta. With 2 different setup-sets, great special bulk and mixed offenses that become exceptionally deadly after one turn of setup, virizion is not to be messed with. What's worse is that it fits well on so many archetypes which makes it all the more annoying. What's good, however is that it gets checked very well by the next mon on our list.
3.
the galarbro has finally found it's natural habitat in RU, being fat and handling them fighting types. With respectable bulk, amazing coverage and 2 great abilities in regenerator and quick draw, galarbro is here to stay. The reason? Versatility. It's just compatible with so many sets.
It can run nasty plot sets, future sight sets, regenerator pivot sets, stall, even belly drum hax sets with quick draw and quick claw( that's why quick draw is listed as a good ability here) and my personal favorite, calm mind sets. This kind of versatility is hard to come by and with the kind of defensive utility it provides, galarbro is definitely a solid pick. It does get countered and checked as well, with it's terrible speed mitigating its sweeping capabilities and lack of teleport for pivoting, not to mention a glaring weakness to knock off. however, galarbro still retains a spot in RU because of it's pros.
4.
probably the best pokemon in the tier. Gives great speed control with thunder wave, great setter of Spikes with prankster, can even set up screens, amazing typing, and decent defensive utility make it a top tier mon in the metagame. Magnet rise also alleviates it's ground weakness to make it even better. Fits on a wide variety of teams and does work for all of them. If there was an S rank RU pokemon, I vote for klefki.
5.
speaking of defensive pokemon, say hi to the best defogger in the tier (goodbye charizard) 140 special defense is no joke and with decent HP and defense investment, this ray is eating hits all day long. It also provides good defensive utility with defog, roost and toxic. Of course, its typing leaves it dead to almost any electric attack in the tier, but the defensive utility it provides when paired with any steel type is too good to pass up.
6.
another offensive threat that blasts everything when it gets in.with the new addition of close combat to it's arsenal, lycanroc is one of the most dangerous sweepers in the tier. It synergizes with gigalith to create an extremely powerful sand core which has the ability to blow whole teams away. It's not restricted to that alone though. It also functions as a great late game cleaner without sand, and choice band allows it to further augment it's offensive capabilities. Again, like barraskewda, it's longevity isn't the greatest, but when you have the ability to clean through teams like it, who's going to pass it up?
7.
the new draco meteor nuke of the tier. With adaptability and a respectable 97 base special attack, it does very well as a nuke. What sets it apart from other nukes though, is it's amazing bulk, giving it longevity and defensive capabilities that most other nukes lack. With the ability to either run choice specs to become an all-out nuke or to run black sludge to utilise a more defensive role, dragalge is definitely a top threat in the meta.
8.
the final mon on our list is the queen herself, gardevoir. Even in the early stages of the meta, she has established herself as a great offensive option. While choice specs sets are the most famous (and rightfully so, since they kill nearly everything slower than garde), even lesser known choice scarf sets work very well in the meta. Alternatively, one can also run calm mind sets to turn it into a dangerous sweeper. It does have garbage defense though, so physical scarfers like drapion and toxicroak take it out fairly easily. Switching them in, though is the difficult task because of the damage output gardevoir provides. Overall, another amazing pokemon in the RU metagame.
I will probably make another post regarding the current state of the meta, but that's all for now,
Flareblitzkreig
1.
barraskewda is the best offensive RU water after sharpedo's ban and boy does this guy hit hard. 123/136 offense and speed is amazing and it has a great movepool to boot. The recent addition of flip turn has given it amazing pivoting capabilities and hard chip on anything that doesn't have water Absorb. The rest of its movepool is respectable too with crunch, psychic fangs, ice fang and close Combat giving it plenty of options. However, it does have it's checks, such as the aforementioned bulky waters and first impression golisopod. CB sets may also be revenge killed and while life orb does alleviate this, it also reduces barraskewda's already poor longevity. However, the fact that it can function as a breaker and cleaner at the same time with those offensive capabilities definitely puts barraskewda in the upper echelons of RU.2.
cancer antelope has returned to torment the tier. This piece of crap has come back and has already put itself among the top-tier RU mons in this meta. With 2 different setup-sets, great special bulk and mixed offenses that become exceptionally deadly after one turn of setup, virizion is not to be messed with. What's worse is that it fits well on so many archetypes which makes it all the more annoying. What's good, however is that it gets checked very well by the next mon on our list.3.
the galarbro has finally found it's natural habitat in RU, being fat and handling them fighting types. With respectable bulk, amazing coverage and 2 great abilities in regenerator and quick draw, galarbro is here to stay. The reason? Versatility. It's just compatible with so many sets.It can run nasty plot sets, future sight sets, regenerator pivot sets, stall, even belly drum hax sets with quick draw and quick claw( that's why quick draw is listed as a good ability here) and my personal favorite, calm mind sets. This kind of versatility is hard to come by and with the kind of defensive utility it provides, galarbro is definitely a solid pick. It does get countered and checked as well, with it's terrible speed mitigating its sweeping capabilities and lack of teleport for pivoting, not to mention a glaring weakness to knock off. however, galarbro still retains a spot in RU because of it's pros.
4.
probably the best pokemon in the tier. Gives great speed control with thunder wave, great setter of Spikes with prankster, can even set up screens, amazing typing, and decent defensive utility make it a top tier mon in the metagame. Magnet rise also alleviates it's ground weakness to make it even better. Fits on a wide variety of teams and does work for all of them. If there was an S rank RU pokemon, I vote for klefki.5.
speaking of defensive pokemon, say hi to the best defogger in the tier (goodbye charizard) 140 special defense is no joke and with decent HP and defense investment, this ray is eating hits all day long. It also provides good defensive utility with defog, roost and toxic. Of course, its typing leaves it dead to almost any electric attack in the tier, but the defensive utility it provides when paired with any steel type is too good to pass up.6.
another offensive threat that blasts everything when it gets in.with the new addition of close combat to it's arsenal, lycanroc is one of the most dangerous sweepers in the tier. It synergizes with gigalith to create an extremely powerful sand core which has the ability to blow whole teams away. It's not restricted to that alone though. It also functions as a great late game cleaner without sand, and choice band allows it to further augment it's offensive capabilities. Again, like barraskewda, it's longevity isn't the greatest, but when you have the ability to clean through teams like it, who's going to pass it up?7.
the new draco meteor nuke of the tier. With adaptability and a respectable 97 base special attack, it does very well as a nuke. What sets it apart from other nukes though, is it's amazing bulk, giving it longevity and defensive capabilities that most other nukes lack. With the ability to either run choice specs to become an all-out nuke or to run black sludge to utilise a more defensive role, dragalge is definitely a top threat in the meta.8.
the final mon on our list is the queen herself, gardevoir. Even in the early stages of the meta, she has established herself as a great offensive option. While choice specs sets are the most famous (and rightfully so, since they kill nearly everything slower than garde), even lesser known choice scarf sets work very well in the meta. Alternatively, one can also run calm mind sets to turn it into a dangerous sweeper. It does have garbage defense though, so physical scarfers like drapion and toxicroak take it out fairly easily. Switching them in, though is the difficult task because of the damage output gardevoir provides. Overall, another amazing pokemon in the RU metagame.I will probably make another post regarding the current state of the meta, but that's all for now,
Flareblitzkreig
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What are everyone's thoughts on Machamp having a chance of returning to the tier now that the metagame has settled down? While it will be a nightmare for balance teams, there are much more counterplay to it than when it was first banned. Two of machamp's hard counters; Indeede and sigilyph, are solid parts of the metagame and are likely to stay for a long time. Moreover, klelfki can utilize thunder wave to slow machamp down and prevent it's flame orb from being used. In addition, its defenses are ok with 90/80/85, very solid, but can't afford to take many big hits. I'll drop some calcs about pokemon who can outspeed and threaten machamp, as i do believe that offensive counterplay may be whats needed to keep machamp in check.
252 Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 456-536 (142 - 166.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 372-438 (115.8 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (charizard can be much more offensive since mantine has returned as a defogger)
252+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 290-342 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (dragalge lives facade and can threaten with draco)
252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 504-594 (157 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 288-338 (89.7 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 298-352 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 344-408 (107.1 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Indeedee-F Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp in Psychic Terrain: 468-552 (145.7 - 171.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 374-439 (116.5 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 239-282 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage (can't live a hit but can pick off weakened machamp)
252 SpA Choice Specs Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 322-381 (100.3 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Silvally-Fairy Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 362-428 (112.7 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
All in all, now that the metagame has settled down, I'd like to hear some thoughts about machamp, who i feel can have a staying place in RU. While it is a menace against balance teams, RU has become much more offensive with set up sweepers like blastoise and great screen setters like klefki, which are on teams machamp struggles with. There are plenty of viable pokemon who can outspeed and threaten machamp with an OHKO, which i feel is enough to keep it in check so it will be balanced in the tier. What do y'all think about machamp? Is it worth retesting and will be fine or is it best we keep it confined to the shadow realm of RUBL?
252 Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 456-536 (142 - 166.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 372-438 (115.8 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (charizard can be much more offensive since mantine has returned as a defogger)
252+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 290-342 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (dragalge lives facade and can threaten with draco)
252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 504-594 (157 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 288-338 (89.7 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 298-352 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 344-408 (107.1 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Indeedee-F Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp in Psychic Terrain: 468-552 (145.7 - 171.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 374-439 (116.5 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 239-282 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage (can't live a hit but can pick off weakened machamp)
252 SpA Choice Specs Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Machamp: 322-381 (100.3 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Silvally-Fairy Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 362-428 (112.7 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
All in all, now that the metagame has settled down, I'd like to hear some thoughts about machamp, who i feel can have a staying place in RU. While it is a menace against balance teams, RU has become much more offensive with set up sweepers like blastoise and great screen setters like klefki, which are on teams machamp struggles with. There are plenty of viable pokemon who can outspeed and threaten machamp with an OHKO, which i feel is enough to keep it in check so it will be balanced in the tier. What do y'all think about machamp? Is it worth retesting and will be fine or is it best we keep it confined to the shadow realm of RUBL?
I think the problem with Machamp is that it is far from being useless against offense thanks to bullet punch and guts, allowing it to easily treathen mons like gardevoir and espeon on the switch, while being extremely efective against fat teams and balance cores. The only real way to force machamp out is to safe switch something faster and healthy, or indeedee (which blocks priority).
This, combined with the possibility of No guard, AV or sub bulk up, makes it an extremely difficult mon to deal on both ends of the spectrum.
That said, new sets/mons could arise to check and treathen machamp in a meaningful way (mostly colbur variants of ghost types) which could e interesting. Personally, I would wait for the drops next month before thinking of bringing him back
Araquanid moved from RU to UU
Rotom-Mow moved from RU to UU
Heracross moved from UU to RU
Torkoal moves from OU to RU
Araquanid isn’t super noticeable but rotom now gone is crazy, best hazard control in the tier + great pivot. Sun is viable again? Heracross will be huge if it stays... lol.
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Heracross isn't staying. It got banned last generation due to Guts
Two new drops, might as well comment on them
There's a reason why my username is named after this absolutely glorious mon: it hits hard, great Speed tier for a wallbreaker, it has a cool design, and it can run a Scarf Moxie set so it's not useless against faster threats. It even has a solid defensive typing, resisting five types (Ground, Dark, Fighting, which are common attacking types in the tier, and the less common Bug and Grass types) and servicable bulk, which means some heat defensive threats can run as a mixed defensive wall and a status absorber. Sucks that it will probably be quickbanned like pretty much every other Fighting type that's dropped from RU this gen, but if it does stay, it's becoming a top tier threat and will be fun to use.
This is the more permanent drop, and the one that intrigues me more. Whereas Heracross is simply a hard hitting wallbreaker with a solid speed tier, Torkoal breathes life into a playstyle that was once argued to be broken within the tier: Drought. Having more than one Sun setter on a team means that Sun lasts longer, and with the utility Torkoal provides it will be a mainstay on Sun teams. Snorlax being less viable than it was at Drought's height is an absolute boon for Sun teams, along with the discovery of Specs Solar Power Charizard, which blows holes through even the bulkiest of teams and nailing 2HKOs on even Vaporeon. Sun has also gotten more abusers since Torkoal's departure in Arcanine, Centiskorch, and the ground types that love not taking full damage from opposing Water types. However, Sun teams do not enjoy the presense of Gigalith, a Rocker that shuts down Drought completely with its own weather, Sand Stream, along with the more niche-but-almost-as-threatening Vanniluxe, which can set up Aurora Veil to punish a Chlorophyll sweeper such as Vileplume. The same abusers of Sun can also directly counter it, as Arcanine and Centiskorch both have access to Flash Fire, meaning they can take a Fire type move and hit back even harder than they usually would be able to. While Sun definitely is neutered from its glory days, there's still room for it in the tier as a specific HO team while being mildly viable with the return of Torkoal.
As for the rises...
Did not use the bug myself, so I'm not the most knowledgeable on it, but from what I heard it was a solid and consistent Sticky Web setter with Heavy Duty Boots that could also hit hard thanks to Water Bubble, or even provide role compression with Leftovers and Water Absorb to act as the bulky water on a team thanks to its solid natural bulk and defensive typing. I feel that offensive teams will miss its presence the most, as all the other Webs setters had their flaws that kept them from outshining Ara. Rimbombee could not beat Steels and provided very little utility beyond Webs and Stun Spore, Vikavolt had very slow speed and only okay bulk, meaning despite having a Ground immunity, it could very rarely switch into neutral hits without investing in bulk, but due to its low Speed tier it also wants to creep a bunch of things, leaving a crazy EV spread that tried to balance both but couldn't (even though it was the second best Webs setter), and the less said about Galvantula the best. However, I can see Ara coming back as UU tends to be wishy-washy when it comes to Sticky Webs, but that remains to be seen.
Possibly no single rise other that Steelix rivals that in Rotom-Mow's in terms of shaking up the tier. It was a necessary glue mon on almost every team. Levitate gave it a Ground and Spikes immunity, Electric typing gives it an immunity to paralysis, an otherwise surefire way of crippling a utility mon like Rotom-M, it has access to strong STAB moves in T-Bolt and Leaf Storm, creating devastating 50/50s against Rockers, a great utility movepool with options such as Will-O-Wisp, Trick, Defog, Pain Split, Light Screen/Reflect, Thunder Wave, and even nicher moves like Swagger and Spite, and there was a ton of variation in terms of sets it could run that made it viable (Pivot with either Leftovers or HDB, Scarf, Specs, LO Nasty Plot, Leftovers Nasty Plot, Hazards Removal, Dual Screens setter, I even saw someone use a RestTalk set with Volt Switch and Leaf Storm). It put teams together, it tore them apart, and did everything in between, all while having that stupid grin on its face. Teams will definitely miss it as it will be hard to fill in the exact roles it had.
Also Sharpedo rose to UU so it can't be tested (like anyone wants it back anyway).
There's a reason why my username is named after this absolutely glorious mon: it hits hard, great Speed tier for a wallbreaker, it has a cool design, and it can run a Scarf Moxie set so it's not useless against faster threats. It even has a solid defensive typing, resisting five types (Ground, Dark, Fighting, which are common attacking types in the tier, and the less common Bug and Grass types) and servicable bulk, which means some heat defensive threats can run as a mixed defensive wall and a status absorber. Sucks that it will probably be quickbanned like pretty much every other Fighting type that's dropped from RU this gen, but if it does stay, it's becoming a top tier threat and will be fun to use.
This is the more permanent drop, and the one that intrigues me more. Whereas Heracross is simply a hard hitting wallbreaker with a solid speed tier, Torkoal breathes life into a playstyle that was once argued to be broken within the tier: Drought. Having more than one Sun setter on a team means that Sun lasts longer, and with the utility Torkoal provides it will be a mainstay on Sun teams. Snorlax being less viable than it was at Drought's height is an absolute boon for Sun teams, along with the discovery of Specs Solar Power Charizard, which blows holes through even the bulkiest of teams and nailing 2HKOs on even Vaporeon. Sun has also gotten more abusers since Torkoal's departure in Arcanine, Centiskorch, and the ground types that love not taking full damage from opposing Water types. However, Sun teams do not enjoy the presense of Gigalith, a Rocker that shuts down Drought completely with its own weather, Sand Stream, along with the more niche-but-almost-as-threatening Vanniluxe, which can set up Aurora Veil to punish a Chlorophyll sweeper such as Vileplume. The same abusers of Sun can also directly counter it, as Arcanine and Centiskorch both have access to Flash Fire, meaning they can take a Fire type move and hit back even harder than they usually would be able to. While Sun definitely is neutered from its glory days, there's still room for it in the tier as a specific HO team while being mildly viable with the return of Torkoal.
As for the rises...
Did not use the bug myself, so I'm not the most knowledgeable on it, but from what I heard it was a solid and consistent Sticky Web setter with Heavy Duty Boots that could also hit hard thanks to Water Bubble, or even provide role compression with Leftovers and Water Absorb to act as the bulky water on a team thanks to its solid natural bulk and defensive typing. I feel that offensive teams will miss its presence the most, as all the other Webs setters had their flaws that kept them from outshining Ara. Rimbombee could not beat Steels and provided very little utility beyond Webs and Stun Spore, Vikavolt had very slow speed and only okay bulk, meaning despite having a Ground immunity, it could very rarely switch into neutral hits without investing in bulk, but due to its low Speed tier it also wants to creep a bunch of things, leaving a crazy EV spread that tried to balance both but couldn't (even though it was the second best Webs setter), and the less said about Galvantula the best. However, I can see Ara coming back as UU tends to be wishy-washy when it comes to Sticky Webs, but that remains to be seen.
Possibly no single rise other that Steelix rivals that in Rotom-Mow's in terms of shaking up the tier. It was a necessary glue mon on almost every team. Levitate gave it a Ground and Spikes immunity, Electric typing gives it an immunity to paralysis, an otherwise surefire way of crippling a utility mon like Rotom-M, it has access to strong STAB moves in T-Bolt and Leaf Storm, creating devastating 50/50s against Rockers, a great utility movepool with options such as Will-O-Wisp, Trick, Defog, Pain Split, Light Screen/Reflect, Thunder Wave, and even nicher moves like Swagger and Spite, and there was a ton of variation in terms of sets it could run that made it viable (Pivot with either Leftovers or HDB, Scarf, Specs, LO Nasty Plot, Leftovers Nasty Plot, Hazards Removal, Dual Screens setter, I even saw someone use a RestTalk set with Volt Switch and Leaf Storm). It put teams together, it tore them apart, and did everything in between, all while having that stupid grin on its face. Teams will definitely miss it as it will be hard to fill in the exact roles it had.
Also Sharpedo rose to UU so it can't be tested (like anyone wants it back anyway).
I feel like Heracross will go to RUBL as soon as possible with how insane it can pop off offensively and not be burdened by a cumbersome speed like some physical hitters in this tier. Of course, that has yet to be seen, especially with how Torkoal has dropped. Fire types are going to be running rampant with no other weather setters in this tier. Part of it makes me wonder if we will see more of Abomasnow and Vanilluxe in RU teams just to counteract the Drought teams that will almost certainly start dominating the landscape. Salazzle, Charizard, Centiskorch and Arcanine all greatly appreciate the sun, and Exeggutor might be the prime Chlorophyll sweeper with its respectable base 125 special attack and good grass/psychic coverage.
Gigalith exists, pretty sure that's what caused ninetales to drop these shifts, so yeah there are other setters in the tier. You are right that sun is going to get a lot better with torkoal back, so it's interesting to see how it develops as the metagame continues. Also i'm still baffled we got hera but not tsareena. Oh yeah, let claydol, coalossoal, and comfey drop, NU needs them a lot more than RU does (and they don't even need them that much).
Woop, completely forgot about Gigalith, lmao. Yeah, sand could definitely help, problem with hail and sand is that they don't have near the same level of sweepers that sun can have in this tier.
Coalossal really baffles me as to how its still in RU, it's typing is atrocious, attacking stats are both middling, and there are superior setters and spinners. Yet it's been holding on from dropping for a while now.
AllTerrainVen0moth
Banned deucer.
blame low ladder for spamming it. this is why donphan was ru in gen 7
Hlelo so to address the bug in the room, RU Council has voted on:
We have an unanimous vote so far - MrAldo still needs to vote but will not change the outcome - to ban Heracross from the RU tier. Similar to all the previous banned fighting types, Heracross' raw power + coverage makes it incredibly hard to check, paired with more defensive value and it being faster than the rest, it just becomes a very restrictive pokemon in the tier. On top of it, Heracross can comfortably run a Choice Scarf set with Moxie, becoming one of the better cleaners in the tier, even adding Spikes this generation to ease its sweeping potential later in the game. That versatility between destroying bulky teams or offensive teams with either set while never being totally useless against the other is extremely oppressive considering the state of the RU metagame at this point.
thanks Feliburn for basically writing the reasoning
Marty and The Immortal , please add Heracross to RUBL, thank you!
We have an unanimous vote so far - MrAldo still needs to vote but will not change the outcome - to ban Heracross from the RU tier. Similar to all the previous banned fighting types, Heracross' raw power + coverage makes it incredibly hard to check, paired with more defensive value and it being faster than the rest, it just becomes a very restrictive pokemon in the tier. On top of it, Heracross can comfortably run a Choice Scarf set with Moxie, becoming one of the better cleaners in the tier, even adding Spikes this generation to ease its sweeping potential later in the game. That versatility between destroying bulky teams or offensive teams with either set while never being totally useless against the other is extremely oppressive considering the state of the RU metagame at this point.
thanks Feliburn for basically writing the reasoning
Marty and The Immortal , please add Heracross to RUBL, thank you!
So Torkoal aside, this was a terrible shift for RU. Heracross was BOA (Banned on Arrival) as expected, we lost a fantastic pivot that was the cornerstone of many teams in Rotom-C, and Webs are harder to pull off with Araquanid gone. At least we finally got rid of our D Rank mons... most of them anyway (Coalossal is dogshit stop using it).
I believe people will start running base Rotom to replace Rotom-C, since it provides most of the same utility while also functioning as a spinblocker for hazard-centric teams. It also has a higher Speed tier, so that's a plus. The downside is, of course, worse stats (namely bulk) and no special move.
As for Araquanid replacements, Vikavolt is the best alternative if you want a bulkier webber. Otherwise, just use lead Ribombee.
But yeah, we lost two good mons in exchange for a niche mon that really only fits on a dying playstyle. What a ripoff.
I believe people will start running base Rotom to replace Rotom-C, since it provides most of the same utility while also functioning as a spinblocker for hazard-centric teams. It also has a higher Speed tier, so that's a plus. The downside is, of course, worse stats (namely bulk) and no special move.
As for Araquanid replacements, Vikavolt is the best alternative if you want a bulkier webber. Otherwise, just use lead Ribombee.
But yeah, we lost two good mons in exchange for a niche mon that really only fits on a dying playstyle. What a ripoff.
Losing Rotom-Cut was definitely a big hit when it comes about completing teams and pulling them together cause the mon itself had many notable characteristics that you wont find on many places. Perfectly fast, really dangerous, double stab that is hard to resist, and pretty much a perfect pivot with the ideal ability all in one. Teams relied a bit too much on it and trying to replace it requires pretty much a whole restructing from the team, or just start from scratch. Options that do fulfill similar roles do exist tho so I guess we can point which ones those are:
Probably the closest relative to "electric pivot that is hard to stop from pivoting even with a ground type" that rotom-cut had. Really eclipsed cause rotom could also wallbreak through the use of nasty plot but in general without the mon on its way Heliolisk has an opportunity to shine. Blessed by a really colorful coverage Heliolisk can be a pretty outstanding pivot, with surf and grass knot being the main corner stones to bop any ground type trying to stop it, and in general the colorful coverage makes Heliolisk a pretty effective Expert Belt user but being grounded means you either want some efficient hazard control or run heavy-duty boots which is already limiting. Life Orb can work but it gets worn down pretty quickly and every hazard affects it so rotom-cut had that notable advantage of the spikes immunity. Still worth a try and the speed is very nice so I do believe it deserves a chance to prove itself.
The closest relative to rotom-cut that share most of the defensive characteristic. Funnily enough, if you for some reason were feeling DIFFERENT if you run vikavolt you pack yourself with a really good rotom-cut check that could win the momentum game versus it (unless you are facing rotom-cut + steelix but the giant iron snake gets worn down anyways) so thats quite the detail, but in general wasnt enough cause rotom-cut was way faster and nasty plot. And there it mentions the problem, the speed! Rotom-Cut didnt need to be scarf. Thats main vikavolt problem to be honest cause as a pivot it is also extremely hard to block from getting momentum with volt switch, packing an incredible 145 SpA, everything coming from this thing hurts. Recently dropped to NU but it given the chance it will rise again tbh, or it should but I dont know, people be whack or whatever.
The closest relative on the breaker department, and honestly even harder to wall. I mean, it doesnt beat mantine per say but boosted leaf storms gotta hurt, especially on overgrow range. This metagame appreciates being able to overpower defensive mons through setup, thats why rotom-cut was like incredible cause of the threat of nasty plot. This does that pretty well and even though its typing combination is easier to switch into (braviary, drapion, etc) those mons arent particularly common right now so this mon could be an ok niche alternative for a grass nasty plot breaker.
And last but not least, just change the flavor. Ice Flavor. Rotom-Fan has a somewhat unfortunate stab combination so not counting that one but rotom-frost can be another flavor of rotom that is also very threatening with Nasty Plot. Electric + Ice is probably harder to switch into, but the main issue comes from Blizzard being unreliable as heck, something to die for, so yeah.
Sadly, not of these can really run scarf, and thats why replacing rotom-cut is tough. It did way too many things... considerably to an unhealthy amount, would be annoying to get over it but it isnt the end of the world. Just another thing that needs to be replaced, everything is disposable.
This isnt taking any viability or anything but who cares, as long as something has something distinctive that makes it attractive over anything else, it is good to use. (Not Cinccino, just fucking use Sneasel) so yeah, everything here mentioned has some redeeming quality.
Also Scarf Regular Rotom is an unfortunate case and I wouldnt use it unless you really have to, it sucks for being so weak, this was doable on previous metas but right now the power is on a level where it really doesnt stand out too much.
See you around.
Probably the closest relative to "electric pivot that is hard to stop from pivoting even with a ground type" that rotom-cut had. Really eclipsed cause rotom could also wallbreak through the use of nasty plot but in general without the mon on its way Heliolisk has an opportunity to shine. Blessed by a really colorful coverage Heliolisk can be a pretty outstanding pivot, with surf and grass knot being the main corner stones to bop any ground type trying to stop it, and in general the colorful coverage makes Heliolisk a pretty effective Expert Belt user but being grounded means you either want some efficient hazard control or run heavy-duty boots which is already limiting. Life Orb can work but it gets worn down pretty quickly and every hazard affects it so rotom-cut had that notable advantage of the spikes immunity. Still worth a try and the speed is very nice so I do believe it deserves a chance to prove itself.
The closest relative to rotom-cut that share most of the defensive characteristic. Funnily enough, if you for some reason were feeling DIFFERENT if you run vikavolt you pack yourself with a really good rotom-cut check that could win the momentum game versus it (unless you are facing rotom-cut + steelix but the giant iron snake gets worn down anyways) so thats quite the detail, but in general wasnt enough cause rotom-cut was way faster and nasty plot. And there it mentions the problem, the speed! Rotom-Cut didnt need to be scarf. Thats main vikavolt problem to be honest cause as a pivot it is also extremely hard to block from getting momentum with volt switch, packing an incredible 145 SpA, everything coming from this thing hurts. Recently dropped to NU but it given the chance it will rise again tbh, or it should but I dont know, people be whack or whatever.
The closest relative on the breaker department, and honestly even harder to wall. I mean, it doesnt beat mantine per say but boosted leaf storms gotta hurt, especially on overgrow range. This metagame appreciates being able to overpower defensive mons through setup, thats why rotom-cut was like incredible cause of the threat of nasty plot. This does that pretty well and even though its typing combination is easier to switch into (braviary, drapion, etc) those mons arent particularly common right now so this mon could be an ok niche alternative for a grass nasty plot breaker.
And last but not least, just change the flavor. Ice Flavor. Rotom-Fan has a somewhat unfortunate stab combination so not counting that one but rotom-frost can be another flavor of rotom that is also very threatening with Nasty Plot. Electric + Ice is probably harder to switch into, but the main issue comes from Blizzard being unreliable as heck, something to die for, so yeah.
Sadly, not of these can really run scarf, and thats why replacing rotom-cut is tough. It did way too many things... considerably to an unhealthy amount, would be annoying to get over it but it isnt the end of the world. Just another thing that needs to be replaced, everything is disposable.
This isnt taking any viability or anything but who cares, as long as something has something distinctive that makes it attractive over anything else, it is good to use. (Not Cinccino, just fucking use Sneasel) so yeah, everything here mentioned has some redeeming quality.
Also Scarf Regular Rotom is an unfortunate case and I wouldnt use it unless you really have to, it sucks for being so weak, this was doable on previous metas but right now the power is on a level where it really doesnt stand out too much.
See you around.
roman
Banned deucer.
hi, sigilyph and inteleon need to be looked at
sigilyph has 0 defensive counterplay aside from coalossal and specially defensive milotic, the former of which struggles to consistently handle it (especially over longer games) and the latter of which is generally regarded as bad because it fails to handle many of our popular special attackers such as slowbro and dragalge, loses to toxic, and gets folded by our physical attackers. i would mention spdef haze mantine here, but haze is almost exclusively used on stall (also widely regarded as bad) and if you did decide to give up one of mantine's precious moveslots for haze, it's still a crappy answer because it no longer runs leftovers that was useful to offset burn damage, meaning that a team with any substantial defensive structure will just pp stall it to death given the opportunity
now for offensive checks. here's a list of viable pokemon who can outspeed and ohko sigilyph: lycanroc, gourgeist, and choice band sneasel. maybe i forgot your Choice Scarf Adamant Drapion who has a 60% chance to ohko but yeah this list is literally the whole list lol
moving on, inteleon isn't quite as oppressive, but i think it needs some buzz wrt a potential suspect. this one i'm not sold on because it can be revenge killed pretty handily and has an actual good check in assault vest slowbro, but otherwise specs and focus energy are equally difficult to reliably switch into and lack good, concrete defensive counterplay aside from the do-nothing-and-die water types i touched on earlier
ftr if you thought the defensive counterplay was already looking pretty dire, inteleon and sigi both have one or more flinching moves to bypass defensive and 1v1 counterplay
anyway yeah hopefully this gets some discussion going, thanks for reading
sigilyph has 0 defensive counterplay aside from coalossal and specially defensive milotic, the former of which struggles to consistently handle it (especially over longer games) and the latter of which is generally regarded as bad because it fails to handle many of our popular special attackers such as slowbro and dragalge, loses to toxic, and gets folded by our physical attackers. i would mention spdef haze mantine here, but haze is almost exclusively used on stall (also widely regarded as bad) and if you did decide to give up one of mantine's precious moveslots for haze, it's still a crappy answer because it no longer runs leftovers that was useful to offset burn damage, meaning that a team with any substantial defensive structure will just pp stall it to death given the opportunity
now for offensive checks. here's a list of viable pokemon who can outspeed and ohko sigilyph: lycanroc, gourgeist, and choice band sneasel. maybe i forgot your Choice Scarf Adamant Drapion who has a 60% chance to ohko but yeah this list is literally the whole list lol
moving on, inteleon isn't quite as oppressive, but i think it needs some buzz wrt a potential suspect. this one i'm not sold on because it can be revenge killed pretty handily and has an actual good check in assault vest slowbro, but otherwise specs and focus energy are equally difficult to reliably switch into and lack good, concrete defensive counterplay aside from the do-nothing-and-die water types i touched on earlier
ftr if you thought the defensive counterplay was already looking pretty dire, inteleon and sigi both have one or more flinching moves to bypass defensive and 1v1 counterplay
anyway yeah hopefully this gets some discussion going, thanks for reading
The thing with sigilyph is that most teams pack one or two answers to it unintentionally, either being a scarfer with knock off, a rock type like gigalith (coalossal is bad rn), barraskewda, av escavalier, goodra, heliolisk... the list goes on. Also, one you know which set it's carrying, it's not that hadr to check. Tinted lens set are easily chipped away unless they run boots (making it really weak) and magic guard sets usually can't touch dark types effectively. While yes, most mons are only checks to it, it doesn't need to be totally countered to be dealt consistently.
As for inteleon, I find that point more compelling, as it is a really hard mon to deal right now for balance builds. That's why most teams are carrying a water absorb mon or milotic. Thing is, inteleon is easily chipped away and revenge killed by basically anything, and focus energy sets don't usually sweep due to the lack of power of the moves not named hydro pump or snipe shot (you need dark pulse flinches to really break bulky waters, which is not always possible). As for offense, they usually have enough speed control or priority to deal with inteleon pretty easily.
While I wouldn't mind seeing a suspect for both, I think there are other mons that are more opressive or non-competitive (slowbro g, looking at you)
agree with roman on sigilyph, to me this mon is what sticks out as what is the most constricting facet of the tier, both in the builder and in the actual game. there are a bit more ways to check it aside from what was listed above, since stuff like lycanroc, scarf rotom, and even snorlax are like fairly viable methods of dealing with it. this is also an incredibly momentum paced metagame atm, as barraskewda, scarf passi, specs inteleon (though sometimes this forgos u-turn i think), dragalge, and milotic are all very prominent pokemon in the tier that are active pivots, so in theory you can bring out the aforementioned answers to put pressure on it, but the way sigi plays is much more nuanced than that. in straightforward terms, there are no true counters. flame orb sigi to me is the most obnoxious pokemon in the tier to play around, because the majority of things that can safely switchin to boosted air slashes get dicked by burn, so things like rhyperior, gigalith, and copperajah are not really safe since while they still may be threatening to sigi itself after a burn, they become substantially easier to switchin to for other teammates, and at that point these things almost become momentum sucks. the amount of dancing you consistently have to do around fo sigi is what pushes it over the edge for me, but of course the other sets are very good as well. lo chunks a lot of the tier and id say is a fairy consistent defogger (this is one of the arguments id make for it being worth keeping because right now hazard control kind of sucks). there is also the trick sticky barb set - if you want to see it in action, this game highlights it pretty well. milotic, which is normally a pivot that keeps itself healthy constantly throughout the game, doesn't really get an opportunity to do much after gaining sticky barb, and is consistently put on the backfoot. and if coal gets tricked barb, then well it is kind of useless because coal is a mon that, while can switch in decently to other sets, is something that desperately needs its boots to function - losing the hazard immunity and taking constant chip essentially makes it a non issue long term.
not really having any solid counters is not particularly a disqualifying factor in itself for a lot of pokemon, but the difference between other things that fill in that category is that they are a lot easier to punish than sigilyph - usually they don't offer a ton of defensive utility, are somewhat frail, and are susceptible to hazards. sigilyph doesn't really have any of those issues and in the games ive played ive felt that its such a constant presence that it becomes a major headache. there is counterplay, and it is not really awful counterplay in itself, but you have to dedicate a lot to be somewhat comfortable vs it and even then sometimes it's not enough when you consider that sigi's weaknesses are not really ones that hard to patch up, so the amount of support needed for it is kind of minimal.
don't really hold too much of an opinion on inteleon and slowbro-g, at least not right now. i feel as though there at least should be a vote for sigi though, whether it be through council voting or a public suspect (we haven't had any of the latter for the entire year and i feel as though we can afford to have one now).
not really having any solid counters is not particularly a disqualifying factor in itself for a lot of pokemon, but the difference between other things that fill in that category is that they are a lot easier to punish than sigilyph - usually they don't offer a ton of defensive utility, are somewhat frail, and are susceptible to hazards. sigilyph doesn't really have any of those issues and in the games ive played ive felt that its such a constant presence that it becomes a major headache. there is counterplay, and it is not really awful counterplay in itself, but you have to dedicate a lot to be somewhat comfortable vs it and even then sometimes it's not enough when you consider that sigi's weaknesses are not really ones that hard to patch up, so the amount of support needed for it is kind of minimal.
don't really hold too much of an opinion on inteleon and slowbro-g, at least not right now. i feel as though there at least should be a vote for sigi though, whether it be through council voting or a public suspect (we haven't had any of the latter for the entire year and i feel as though we can afford to have one now).
Seeing as the upper posts talks about Sigilpyh in great detail, I'll just give my thoughts on Inteleon instead. Although Inteleon is really good, I think it's fine for the tier as of now. It's greatly hindered by the abundance of viable bulky waters. I think RU is the tier with the most diverse water resists/immunities. Even the dragons and grasses give the specs set a problem. Specs Inteleon is really powerful, but it really wants to click its water STAB. I often end up having to U-Turn because it's not uncommon for a team to have more than 1 water resist/immunity that clicking other coverage moves is not worth the risk. The Focus Energy set doesn't have much problems with dragons and grasses since it OHKOes all of them after a focus Energy (except maybe Goodra but it's easily chipped). However, it loses the breaking power and U-Turn utility of the specs set, requiring more team support for Inteleon to sweep properly.
Mantine, Milotic, Gastrodon and Vaporeon counter both Inteleon sets (Focus Energy only 3HKOes with Dark Pulse/Air Slash crit). Couple that with Umbreon, dragons, grasses, Seismitoad, Jellicent, Toxicroak, AV Glowbro, chip from hazards, and the few revenge killers it has is enough to prevent an Inteleon from stomping every game. Maybe if tier shifts take away its checks, then I could see it becoming a problem.
Mantine, Milotic, Gastrodon and Vaporeon counter both Inteleon sets (Focus Energy only 3HKOes with Dark Pulse/Air Slash crit). Couple that with Umbreon, dragons, grasses, Seismitoad, Jellicent, Toxicroak, AV Glowbro, chip from hazards, and the few revenge killers it has is enough to prevent an Inteleon from stomping every game. Maybe if tier shifts take away its checks, then I could see it becoming a problem.
I think that Sigilyph should be banned via council vote (or suspect tested, though I would prefer a ban) ASAP.
The Pokemon that can succeed against Flame Orb Sigilyph sets fall into one of four categories.
green = pretty reliable; can switch in multiple times or always OHKO it or KO thru 1 hit + burn / +1 SDef -> +2 SDef.
orange = not as reliable, depends on rolls to fulfill one of the above categories.
1) Physical attackers that can outspeed it and hit it super effectively.
2) Special attackers that can outspeed it and significantly damage it even at +1 SpDef. They need to be able to KO it with 1 hit at +1 SDef and 1 hit at +2 SDef, so that Sigilyph can't out-boost them and then roost off their hits.
4) Trick users
I'll now go through the reason that each of these categories comes nowhere near guaranteeing success versus Sigilyph:
Again, these four categories only cover answers to Flame Orb Sigilyph, and the answers were already limited to a small pool of Pokemon.
Almost all of them are unable to take attacks from LO Sigilyph and/or crippled by another set such as Trick + Sticky Barb, making it even harder to deal with Sigilyph in practice even if you somehow answer Flame Orb well on paper.
The need to run one or more of these Pokemon on every team (along with their support, such as a slow pivot to safely bring in the physical attackers) is extremely constricting, preventing us from building teams well-equipped for the whole meta because we must focus so intensely on Sigilyph. Therefore, I believe Sigilyph deserves a BAN.
However, the meta is developed enough that we could do a public suspect test, which I would find interesting. That's also an option I support, as long as we are doing something about it. (However, to be clear, I would prefer a council vote. I think it's OP enough that keeping it around another 2-3 weeks would needlessly hinder the development of the post-Sigi meta).
Either way, I think that the council should take action on this extreme threat ASAP.
Some replays: (I can't find a ton right now, but feel free to PM me here/on Discord with more!)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1178265870-rwb7pg4b6f7bo4oi8i5q7rn51whyxlvpw expulso vs pattek, r1 RU SSNL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1181918871-bh582218vskj0g1sn308f5locr02fv6pw expulso vs Internal, r2 RU SSNL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1177648603-tib4poireyv4jg02iqusetvxycn8mrzpw kythr vs hurtadoo, RU SSNL r1/2
The Pokemon that can succeed against Flame Orb Sigilyph sets fall into one of four categories.
green = pretty reliable; can switch in multiple times or always OHKO it or KO thru 1 hit + burn / +1 SDef -> +2 SDef.
orange = not as reliable, depends on rolls to fulfill one of the above categories.
Sigilyph @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Psycho Shift
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Psycho Shift
1) Physical attackers that can outspeed it and hit it super effectively.
examples: CB Barraskewda, CB Sneasel, Lycanroc, Tauros, Scarf Drapion, Scarf Passimian* , Scarf Toxicroak**
*: Knock -> Flame Orb burn -> Knock again is ~50% roll
**: Gunk -> Flame Orb burn -> Gunk again is about a 33% roll even before accuracy check
less viable examples: Persian-Alola, Cinccino, Gourgeist-Small, Froslass
2) Special attackers that can outspeed it and significantly damage it even at +1 SpDef. They need to be able to KO it with 1 hit at +1 SDef and 1 hit at +2 SDef, so that Sigilyph can't out-boost them and then roost off their hits.
examples: Espeon, Heliolisk, Nasty Plot Ninetales, Specs Inteleon, Scarf Rotom (TBolt vs +1 -> +2 Sigi is about a 50% roll)
3) Walls capable of taking on its attacks & Hazing or damaging it hard in returnexamples: Coalossal, Arcanine, Rock Blast Rhyperior, Rock Blast Gigalith, Umbreon, Mantine, Milotic, Calm Mind Slowbro-Galar
4) Trick users
examples: Gardevoir, Rotom, Espeon, Ribombee, Xatu
less viable examples (or less common Trick users): Gourgeist-Small, Persian-Alola, Bronzong, Klefki
I'll now go through the reason that each of these categories comes nowhere near guaranteeing success versus Sigilyph:
None of these Pokemon can switch in against Flame Orb Sigilyph because a burn would render them useless against it. They also don't really want to take an Air Slash, for the most part, because they are frail. Therefore, they all require the help of a slow pivot to be brought in safely. That slow pivot (such as Flip Turn Milo/Vapo, Dragalge, Teleport Porygon2/Xatu) will thus take a lot of chip from Sigi's attacks as it switches in and uses its slow pivoting move. This can prevent teams from executing this strategy more than once or twice.
These are generally solid answers, but the pool of faster special Pokemon with a super effective attack strong enough to avoid getting CMed on by Sigilyph is quite limited. For instance, if Modest Scarf Goodra switches in and tries to Thunderbolt +1 Sigilyph, it can barely do 50%; the Sigilyph user CMs up again and again before they decide they don't want to risk a crit and KO Goodra. Thus, it's pretty much limited to the 5 Pokemon I listed. Of those, Inteleon isn't super reliable because Air Slash 2HKOs after Stealth Rock, so it struggles to switch directly into Sigi; Scarf Rotom can't always KO +1 -> +2 Sigi, though the Sigi user would usually prefer not to risk it. That narrows the category down to 3 reliable answers: Espeon, Heliolisk, and NP Tales.
Coal, Gigalith, and Rhyperior need Rock Blast to avoid being PP stalled by Sigilyph, a move that is usually not preferred due to the noticeable power sacrifice. Even then, a burn renders Rhyperior / Gigalith useless vs the rest of Sigi's team, and the lack of reliable recovery means all 3 can be worn down easily by Sigi's teammates. Arcanine is awesome vs Flame Orb Sigi, but not super common. CM Slowbro-Galar, Umbreon, Mantine, and Milotic can all be defeated with flinches, and the latter two are easy to cripple with a burn or a teammate's Toxic.
Furthermore, they can all lose to other sets. LO Psyshock does a ton to Coal, Arcanine, Gigalith, and Mantine; LO Energy Ball takes out Rhyperior and does a ton to Milotic; LO Air Slash / Psychic will 2HKO Slowbro-Galar. In addition, Trick + Sticky Barb means all these walls instantly lose their healing / Boots and become unable to stop Sigilyph. That set is definitely harder to build with, but it shows how effectively Sigilyph can cripple any possible answer.
Furthermore, they can all lose to other sets. LO Psyshock does a ton to Coal, Arcanine, Gigalith, and Mantine; LO Energy Ball takes out Rhyperior and does a ton to Milotic; LO Air Slash / Psychic will 2HKO Slowbro-Galar. In addition, Trick + Sticky Barb means all these walls instantly lose their healing / Boots and become unable to stop Sigilyph. That set is definitely harder to build with, but it shows how effectively Sigilyph can cripple any possible answer.
Tricking away your Choice item as Sigilyph switches out means throwing away your method of answering it, forcing a mindgame in favor of the Sigilyph user every time the Trick user comes into battle. If they Trick on the wrong turn, they'll be unable to stop Sigilyph in the future; if they attack or switch out anticipating Sigi to switch but Sigilyph stays in, they'll have to take more damage in the process of switching in again. The Trick user needs to get the Trick turn exactly right, a difficult task when most experienced players know which Pokemon run Trick. Furthermore, offensive teams will often realize that, after tricking a Choice Scarf to +1 Sigilyph, they struggle to take on its attacks and have no way to outspeed it, meaning Tricking it won't even always stop it.
Again, these four categories only cover answers to Flame Orb Sigilyph, and the answers were already limited to a small pool of Pokemon.
Almost all of them are unable to take attacks from LO Sigilyph and/or crippled by another set such as Trick + Sticky Barb, making it even harder to deal with Sigilyph in practice even if you somehow answer Flame Orb well on paper.
The need to run one or more of these Pokemon on every team (along with their support, such as a slow pivot to safely bring in the physical attackers) is extremely constricting, preventing us from building teams well-equipped for the whole meta because we must focus so intensely on Sigilyph. Therefore, I believe Sigilyph deserves a BAN.
However, the meta is developed enough that we could do a public suspect test, which I would find interesting. That's also an option I support, as long as we are doing something about it. (However, to be clear, I would prefer a council vote. I think it's OP enough that keeping it around another 2-3 weeks would needlessly hinder the development of the post-Sigi meta).
Either way, I think that the council should take action on this extreme threat ASAP.
Some replays: (I can't find a ton right now, but feel free to PM me here/on Discord with more!)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1178265870-rwb7pg4b6f7bo4oi8i5q7rn51whyxlvpw expulso vs pattek, r1 RU SSNL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1181918871-bh582218vskj0g1sn308f5locr02fv6pw expulso vs Internal, r2 RU SSNL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1177648603-tib4poireyv4jg02iqusetvxycn8mrzpw kythr vs hurtadoo, RU SSNL r1/2
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