Metagame NP: RU Stage 5 - Electric Feel (Slowbro-G banned, see post #27)

[phantom]

​

Electric types have been dominating the tier throughout post DLC-2 RU, and Thundurus stands out as arguably the most dangerous among them. With fantastic offensive stats and a near-flawless movepool, Thundurus can run two very strong sets: Nasty Plot and Knock Off pivot. Its fantastic speed tier puts it above the majority of the unboosted meta, while its incredible coverage allows it to deal with any would-be switch-ins, making both sets extremely dangerous in the current meta. Thundurus has defined the tier in its ability either break teams with Nasty Plot or endlessly spam Knock Off with its pivot set. With the addition of Heavy Duty Boots, Thundurus can make use of that alongside it’s great typing and decent bulk to find switch-in opportunities against threats like Togekiss, SR Cobalion, SR Metagross, and defensive threats such as Klefki and Crobat. This gives Thundurus some sustainability throughout the game since it doesn’t have to worry about Stealth Rock and can utilize its defensive typing to find the occasional switch-ins or sponge priority attacks such as First Impression. Many of the Pokémon Thundurus can take turns off of are staples in the tier themselves, which assures that Thundurus isn’t always dependent on team support to get in.

Nasty Plot sets consisting of Thunderbolt / Focus Blast / Psychic | Sludge Bomb have very few checks in RU. Once it sets up, Thundurus can tear apart entire defensive cores singlehandedly. Certain defensive pivots such as Diancie and AV Reuniclus are capable of holding it off, but have the potential to be worn down into range or overwhelmed throughout the course of the match. Nasty Plot sets are also capable of running Prankster Thunder Wave in the last slot, which trades coverage for a stronger matchup against offensive teams, crippling would-be revenge killers such as Scarf Mienshao and Noivern. The pivot set, arguably just as dangerous as Nasty Plot if not more, takes advantage of the dearth of Knock Off absorbers in the tier. Pivot Thundurus runs Thunderbolt / Knock Off / U-turn / Grass Knot with Heavy Duty Boots. Many of the tier’s best Knock Off absorbers, such as Cobalion, fold to Thundurus and the few that may not, such as Sylveon, become less effective without Leftovers. With the tier being centralized around boots, this makes pivot Thundurus one of the most troublesome attackers. Pivot Thundurus is also capable of crippling the few checks to Nasty Plot such as AV Reuniclus and Diancie. The combination of an extremely fast Knock Off + U-turn makes it very difficult to pin down the pivot set, as it’s almost always assured to cripple something and then freely pivot out to the appropriate response.

While Thundurus can make itself last throughout the match with Heavy Duty Boots, its lack of recovery and middling defenses make it possible to limit switch-ins, even threats such as Togekiss, which Thundurus can normally get a switch-in or two from, are capable of wearing it down with coverage. Though some sets occasionally sport Prankster Thunder Wave, more often than not, Thundurus is heavily dependent on its coverage to make any progress due to its lack of boosting item, which makes it prone to being revenge killed by faster threats. There are also several offensive counter-measures to Thundurus. Raikou in particular is a top tier threat capable of holding off every set, while other Electric-types such as Xurkitree and Toxtricity have good one-to-one matchups against Thundurus. Zygarde-10% is also a bit of a roadblock, as it discourages Thundurus from freely spamming Electric attacks and is immune to Prankster Thunder Wave. Even limited, Thundurus checks do exist for both sets, which combined with offensive pressure, can be argued to be sufficient enough to hold it off.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

Suspect information:

• Due to low turnout from the previous suspect, the minimum GXE has been scaled down to 78. Ideally, we’d like to use a higher threshold for suspect requirements, but the RU ladder doesn’t quite have the activity to warrant it. After this suspect, we may look at adjusting the requirements in the future if needed.
• There will be no draws allowed for any potential qualifiers. If you qualify with draws, your suspect requirements will not count and you will not be allowed to vote. There is no way to actively enforce ties to prevent abuse, so they will be disallowed. Use stall at your own risk.
• All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! RU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "RUT8 (nickname)”. For example, RUT8 cornpop or RUT8 ruthkanda.
• Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
• The suspect test will last for 10 days, ending on Monday, February 1st @ 11:59 EST.

/!\ NOTICE /!\ RU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. For more query feel free to PM me or Evigaro.

song:

 

[phantom]

tagging Marty and The Immortal to set up the suspect ladder. Thanks!

 

[toinha]

where do I post the reqs '-'

 

[Aquarius Ghost ❤]

where do I post the reqs '-'

Patience is key my friend, just wait a bit until they can set it up. Anyway, toinha is too goated, they got reqs so fast. Ikr! So epic!

 

[toinha]

Patience is key my friend, just wait a bit until they can set it up. Anyway, toinha is too goated, they got reqs so fast. Ikr! So epic!

lmao thanks friend, I lost like 3 times but i did it :D

 

[phantom]

where do I post the reqs '-'

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-ru-suspect-process-round-2-voter-id-thread.3676985/

Please use simple questions thread in the future. Thanks!

 

[SOMALIA]

Having never really dabbled in RU I can say it is way more diverse and interesting compared to other lower tiers and I enjoyed this run immensely.

I havent really felt the brunt of Thundurus not did I encounter it all that much so cannot comment on how good it is but I reaaaaaly like this metagame,.

Except for that STUPID ZARUDE, I HATE IT!!!!

The team I used:

https://pokepast.es/d038906d9e3ab8fc

I'm the biggest abuser of stored power bulky psychic in every single tier and this is no exception lol. I just wish there were less Dark-types in this tier (chuckle)

 

[MrSoup]

I'm gonna post some of my thoughts on the suspect before voting to hopefully encourage some discussion and maybe help make my mind on the vote.

Currently, I'm leaning towards a Ban on thundurus because of its ability to be splashed as an offensive measure on so many teams. While I don't find it to be outright oppressive, calling whether it's running the nasty plot set or pivot set at team preview is essential. Bluffing nasty plot and knocking off possible defensive checks that may be able to answer back (raikou, umbreon, celebi, toxtricity, etc.) can gut a team's ability to deal with offensive threats. In addition, the ability for the nasty plot set to run a variety of options for its fourth coverage move can make which check you switch into a 50/50. While laddering, I saw the more obvious coverage moves in psychic/sludge bomb, but I also saw things like dark pulse for celebi/reuniclus/alolan marowak and grass knot. This dynamic in the flexibility thunderus offers to teams makes the pokemon, in my opinion, a balance/bulky offense breaker that makes offense the preferred style in the tier.

Although, I wouldn't necessarily call thundurus an issue to think about in the team builder. I'd argue that in the process of building a solid team, there will naturally be one or two thundurus checks that make the pokemon feel manageable. Most scarf users can threaten it out after chip (mienshao, zarude, etc.) and things like raikou or toxtricity are easy to add on to teams and don't constrain the building process. I'd say thundurus has many checks/usable counter-play and most of the question as to whether it should be banned stems from the ability of the player to guess its set correctly. In my opinion, this encourages game knowledge and skill, and it may actually be a good thing for the tier. Yet, guessing wrong is so punishing in many cases. This is also compounded by thundurus' under-utilized ability to throw out prankster moves like taunt or thunder-wave, which can cripple possible answers.

I'm not exactly positive on how I'll vote, however tldr I think thundurus can encourage good play but may make non-offense oriented teams too difficult to pull off due to 50/50s.

For anyone trying to get last minute reqs I laddered with this rain team I made: https://pokepast.es/43ff12f1088435a1

 

[TheHungrySnorlax]

I'm going to be centralizing my argument on the premise that while Thundurus itself isn't outright broken, it is worthy of a ban due to how easily it can punish opposing threats and how difficult it is to punish in return, with a much heavier emphasis on the latter.

I believe Thundurus's impact on the tier is best demonstrated in practice more so than in the builder. Much like Raikou and Xurkitree, Thundurus possesses diverse coverage, meaning most of the tier's Ground-types need to be very wary of switching in; however, it takes this a step further than the other Electrics given its access to both Knock Off and U-turn. What does this mean? Well, in practice, it translates to Thundurus being capable of making a significant amount of progress with its pivot set seeing as most Electric-resistant or immune threats who don't mind taking a Grass Knot, such as Dragalge and Roserade, absolutely despise losing their item and/or being pivoted on with U-turn. When one considers how great Spikes builds are in the metagame along with the hit-and-run nature of the pivot set, it's not difficult to see how Thundurus easily punishes its checks and grab momentum in its favor.

Now, this alone isn't grounds for a ban, but it leads me to my next point of discussion: why it is difficult to punish Thundurus. Thundurus's speed tier alone puts it above a large portion of the tier, meaning there are very few 'mons that naturally outspeed it along with some Scarfers. My main issue with this is that the vast majority of 'mons that revenge kill Thundurus on paper can be punished in one or more ways. More specifically, the most common scarfers, namely Zarude and Mienshao, absolutely need to lock into 1 or 2 moves in order to effectively revenge kill Thundurus, which is easily telegraphed and can be taken advantage of by a teammate such as Cobalion or Barbaracle even if your scarfer manages to successfully revenge kill Thundurus. I believe the best way to convey how most revenge killers can be punished by Thundurus lies in the flexibility of the NP set. Electric+Fighting converage is reasonably good against most of the tier, meaning Thundurus can afford to ditch an additional coverage move in the last moveslot for a more utility-based move. In my time laddering for the suspect requirements, I utilized Thunder Wave and Substitute on different teams. Substitute is incredibly useful not only in one of its usual applications of punishing sacrifices, but also in effectively scouting most revenge killers, notably Zygarde-10% as it doesn't care about Thunder Wave. Thunder Wave completely ruins Scarfers such as Darmanitan and Mienshao while also punishing Noivern, which could otherwise reasonably revenge kill Thundurus even through a substitute. The issue I have with this is that most revenge killers fall into one or both of the categories of being susceptible to the use of Thunder Wave or Substitute on Thundurus's NP set, and even though Thundurus can't run one of these alongside a second coverage option, most of the Pokemon who don't necessarily mind the status moves absolutely need to respect the possibility of said additional coverage and falter to it, with Toxtricity being a very notable example that crumples to Psychic. It is this whole dynamic of how difficult Thundurus is to punish that serves as the straw that breaks the camel's back. As mentioned at the beginning, while I don't think Thundurus is outright broken, I firmly believe it exerts a negative influence on the development of the tier for the reasons I have mentioned above.

I will be voting to ban Thundurus.

 

[phantom]

Several players voiced concerns that there were technical issues with the PS ladder. As a result, we will be offering a 24 hour extension. The suspect will now formally end on: Tuesday, February 2nd @ 11:59 PM EST.

 

[EviGaro]

Thundurus-I is now banned from the RU tier

 

[Jmash]

I been waiting for this suspect to end and see the result before this post, main thing that I wanted to focus on is one of my favorite mons, even if it’s not necessarily top tier or super splashable.

Alolan Marowak​

This thing’s a ton of fun, very raw Pokemon that holds a surprisingly uncommon niche of being able to wallbreak immediately. Lots of this meta is VoltTurning with synergistic Pokemon that force each others threats out and continue pivoting, and common ways to break teams down involve stuff like Knock Off, Spikes, and status. However, Alolan Marowak makes progress a little differently by straight up threatening to OHKO a good chunk of the meta, an immediate threat unlike the other methods mentioned. It’s not the only mon like this, look at Specs Toxtricity, Thousand Arrows machine, and the Guts duo. Outside of those though, you really don’t see a ton of spontaneous threats, even stuff like SD Cobalion and CM Raikou hardly pose anywhere near the same threat level in the early game. So how exactly does Alolan Marowak play out in a game?

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Adamant Nature
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 244 Spe
- Poltergeist
- Fire Punch
- Low Kick / Earthquake
- Swords Dance / Flame Charge

Often in a game, Poltergeist is the main button to click, as it has the most power and neutral coverage. The only things you may have to actively predict around is Zarude, Incineroar, and Obstagoon. Zarude is at danger of dying at full health to a single Fire Punch, Incineroar you can chip with coverage, and Goon dies to a Low Kick. It may seem like I’m oversimplifying potential counterplay, but often Poltergeist is too deadly against most other things on a team, so getting a feel for when the opponent will attempt to bring in a resist is not too hard. Now for most team’s “safest” switches, fat Waters. Seismitoad is annoying in the fact that many are running speed and Knock Off is such an immediate threat, but it takes over half easily and has no recovery, while Gastrodon gets straight 2HKO’d. Suicune actually gets 2HKO’d and cannot kill Alolawak from full with Scald, letting you trade if you choose. Milotic is faster and will take one while having the option to click Recover, but even then, Poltergeist outdamages Recover+Leftovers, meaning only a potential miss can save them. Against non-Haze, Alolawak can just SD and OHKO, once again living Scald(and not having to worry about Scald burns!).

What this means is that against most teams, Alolawak can either pick up a kill or trade if it gets in cleanly. While it’s slow and not that bulky, Alolawak actually threatens to 1v1 and straight up beat more mons than you’d expect. At full, it can survive Noivern’s Draco and Raikou’s Scald and OHKOs in return, and Alolawak can actively check Stealth Rock Cobalion, Xurkitree, Toxtricity, and Roserade enough times to pick up more than enough kills. Having Alolawak also means you always have a way to check CM Reuniclus and GalarBro. Now having to basically sacrifice a majority of your health to beat things like Waters and others doesn’t seem too useful, but the fact is it’s way more likely the Alolawak team gained more from the trade than the opposing team, since those mons Alolawak trades with are usually very important for checking other threats that the Alolawak team can easily be built to take advantage of. And if they really need that Pokemon that Alolawak is trying to kill? You’ll probably do massive damage or kill something else and you’ve taken 0 damage in the process. Plus, a 1% Alolawak is still checking that Scarf Xurkitree or occasional Specs Raikou you may run into.

This hasn’t even touched on other tricks you could do, like stealing EVs from attack to always live Adamant Metagross’s EQ, and Flame Charge, which limits the options to revenge kill you, stuff like Volcanion and Tyrantrum if Adamant, and Heracross and Chandelure if Jolly. You can also be faster than incoming Togekiss attempting to live a hit and threatening to flinch you down. A neat tactic against Milotic is Flame Charging first, as now you’re faster, and in order to avoid a 2HKO from Poltergeist, they must pre-emptively click Recover. If they start Recovering too many times, you can start farming Flame Charge boosts, suddenly outspeeding Zydog at +2, and Scarf Zarude and Mienshao at +3 if Jolly.

Don’t get me wrong this mon got some issues LOL. A Stealth Rock weakness, which heavily impacts its ability to trade, is not a usual weakness in a boots-heavy tier. Once you get a kill, you definitely let in some scary shit like Zydog and Heracross if disregarding Flame Charge. Ye these weakness suck and thus mandate specific support not every team can provide, which is why the mon’s more niche, but classic VoltTurn helps this mon just as much as other breakers, and stuff like Defog Togekiss and Spin Starmie are not impossible fits. Thundy leaving is cool cus now you check every Electric fairly comfortably, and Raikou being the most immediate replacement is a good thing. I just find this mon to be a really nice tool to have, a breaker that can choose to almost always get a kill, that’s not choice locked, and has real defensive utility with its Volt immunity and resistances. Its immediately threatening presence is a weirdly rare thing in this meta, so try it out, lot of fun.

Wall of calcs

252+ Atk Alolawak Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zarude: (105.9 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 75% with Jolly

252 SpA Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Alolawak: (78.5 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Alolawak Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Jolly kills too

252 SpA Raikou Scald vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Alolawak: (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 87.5% chance to KO after rocks

252+ Atk Alolawak Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: (112.4 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO Jolly kills too

252+ Atk Alolawak Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Galar: (107.1 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 87.5% with Jolly

252+ Atk Alolawak Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO offensive dies, bb recoil means bulky dies too

252 Atk Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alolawak: (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alolawak: (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Alolawak Poltergeist vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: (52.7 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 31.3% with Jolly

252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Alolawak: (84 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO trick I mentioned earlier

0 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Alolawak: (78.1 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Alolawak Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Milotic: (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Jolly is a lot less consistent if they are still faster

252+ Atk Alolawak Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Suicune: (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Alolawak Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Alolawak Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Seismitoad: (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Alolawak Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: (97.6 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO 37.5% with Jolly, Jolly Flame Charge into EQ kills with good rolls

Fuck this Pokemon

This shit is probably somehow even better

Non-choice might be good again

 

[A floor Mat]

I want to share some thoughts about some underrated heat found within our Rarelyused tier!

MrAldo AKA Ttrum has a very good niche in RU, acting as a good scarfer that can cleanup late game with it's amazing attack stat and its two powerful STAB moves Head Smash and Outrage. Ttrum can also run an effective Choice Band set that can explode a lot of switch-ins however imo scarf is easier to fit on teams. Ttrum's great Rock typing allows it to threaten out very common Pokemon such as Noivern and Togekiss and switch into Pokemon like Crobat. Ttrum is a great pick for sure!
Starmie is a good offensive Water-type that has a high speed tier and can fulfill multiple roles within the tier. Starmie can use it's great speed stat and good utility moves in Rapid spin, Recover and Flip-turn to act as a spinner that can also keep up momentum and pivot into powerful teammates, helping it to keep up in this fast pace meta. It can also act as a good wall breaker with Analytic + Life orb, hitting a majority of the tier with good damage. Starmie does have to be careful because it invites in common water types as well as Zarude but with good plays and team support, it can prove to be a valuable addition to a team.
Sharpedo is a late game Demon! If Shark can gain a few speed boosts (which is not too difficult cuz of Protect) it can make anything shudder in fear. Lets ask Zarude how well he takes a Adamant Lo CC from shark
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zarude: 338-398 (96.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO Shark=Scary
Although Toxicroak may be untiered (Jeez the tiering realm shows no mercy) Toxicroak still finds a niche in RU. Thanks to it's epic Dry Skin ability, it can act as a switch in to water types such as Milotic, Suicune and the previously mentioned Demon. Toxicroak's Poison typing also
allows it to absorb T spikes and smack Togekiss (unless its scarfkiss). A good option for teams struggling to deal with some of the bulky waters.

Finally, zizalith AKA Linoone is a very good setup sweeper. With Screens support, Linoone can begin smacking it's belly with great success. Priority Extreme Speed makes it difficult to revenge kill it and can quickly explode offensive teams. Espeed can also get a clutch hit against a Cloyster who has Shell Smashed. With some good teambuilding and well timed belly smacking, Linoone can run through a team.

Thanks for reading!! here's a Tyrantrum T E A M for your patience! I wanna know if u like any of these underrated threats!

 

[Flareblitzkreig]

let's do this one more time.

cool pokes that are doing rly well etc etc

1. this thing is an absolute monster. does just about everything you need it to and beyond. cleric? check. hazard removal? check. thunder wave for speed control? check. absolutely great bulk and typing that allows it to check the vast majority of the tier's physical attackers? check. zarude check? absolutely. fricking sweep with nasty plot? check. air slash+serene grace is just the icing on the top. easily the one of the best if not the best pokemon in the tier rn jeez this mon puts in SO MUCH WORK every time its in play.

2. ofc we're the tier of elecs rn so i have to talk about my favorite one, which is also the joint mascot of rupl this year. yep, its the shouty froggo, toxtricity.
froggo is what you would get if you took exploud and dialed its volume up to 11. not only does this thing hit like a freaking train, it has amazing coverage options to boot and hits like a train even with those coverage options because its ability is that ridiculously good, it can also run different sets to make checking it even harder. legit this thing has such few true counters that had it not been for its pedestrian speed of 75, it would quite possibly be the first thing leaving the tier in the stable ru era.

3. role compression at its peak. such a great pokemon rn that has so much utility value. we all know what toad does and what it has been doing for a long time now, lets leave it at that.

4. good god it has won the pivot war, hasnt it? noivern is such a great pokemon rn and it brings so much to the table. with the fastest effective speed tier in the game and a great stab attacking move in draco meteor with good coverage in flamethrower to hit steels along with u-turn for pivoting purposes of course. it also has great variety however. access to taunt, toxic and defog means it has great utility value in game and always pulls its weight. it also functions as a great revenge killer and manages to check tier king zarude by virtue of its typing. overall great offensive utlity.

5. this mon is so underrated oh my god. durant got a new tool in first impression in this gen and holy crap does it hit hard. perched on a great speed tier of 109 with decent attack that's further bolstered by the good but sometimes infuriating hustle, durant makes for a great pick in today's ru metagame. wih great options in coverage such as superpower, crunch, rock slide and thunder fang it has a great offensive presence as a wallbreaker than leaves a sizeable hole in the opponenets team (granted you hit your moves). however durant does have its problems. the presence of flyers on a majority of teams reduces first impression's efficiency at scoring kills and it's vulnerability to special moves do mitigate its strength as a wallbreaker but nevertheless durant is still a great pick in the meta as of now.

6: i hate this pokemon. it has nearly everything a wallbreaker needs. blazing fast speed, great attacking power, decent coverage and OH MY GOD THE MOST BROKEN MOVE EVER i hate thousand-arrows. jokes aside, zygarde 10% is the best physical wallbreaker in the tier right now and one of the major reasons for it it t-arrows. thousand arrows turns many of the tiers premier answers to grounds into victims and hits everything for stupid damage anyways. this means that the only real answers are grass and bug types. now while the tier's premier grass, zarude is ran on every team, it has a chance to get OHKOED by superpower, which makes checking zydog extremely challenging. however, checks such as golisopod, dhelmise and tangela do ease the burden of handling zygarde 10%, but most of the time, the key to handling zydog is to use a combination of soft checks to prevent it from making too much progress. overall zydog is a potent force in the meta and will remain so for the forseeable future.


thats all from me today ggs ty bye

 

[kalki]

nice analysis

 

[EviGaro]

So we did a survey recently, results are more complete on discord, but this is the screen I wanted to bring attention too:

Only four mons really got any significant votes for a potential suspect, Slowbro-Galar, Zygarde-10%, Togekiss, and Zarude, going in order of the votes received to give some thoughts:

- Zydog is pretty clearly seen as one of the main threats in the tier, and it's not difficult to see why with his superb signature move in Thousand Arrows. While some things do a good job of getting in against its ground stab, it has enough of a movepool to be fairly threatening to the standard ground resists with Outrage, Superpower, Stone Edge, while having Extreme Speed as a tool vs offence. However, Zygarde-10% is extremely limited, unlike its best days in SM RU where the DD + Dragonium set was a genuine threat to cover. Currently, only CB is really worth it, and that can force Zydog into tough decisions. Is that enough though?

- Slowbro-Galar got a fairly decent margin of votes, but it's a bit more of an unique threat. odr covered it well in a recent NP post, but it's a really tough threat to ko while having significant offensive presence when boosted. However, it is slow to setup and quite weak to begin with, leading it to force the outcome with potential status from its coverage. The other thing to consider is the annoyingly workable cheese sets, namely with Quick Draw and Quick Claw. Is Slowbro-Galar reliable enough, though? Or does it lack the ability to pull off wins on a relatively consistent basis? A lot of people do want to see something happened here so it's absolutely worth talking about, but with people talking about so many different options as to why they think it's broken more discussion might be needed.

- Togekiss is far behind, perhaps surprisingly. In practice, Togekiss has the ability to turn any mon slower than it into a ko, and it's not even that rare. Rhyperior is notoriously unreliable vs the NP set and doesn't even ko it all the time if it connects, and it's been said that the only reason this is not higher is the plethora of fast electrics we have, though one did just get banned. However, some developments have been made, faster poisons are starting to be popular again with Roserade and Salazzle, Crobat now can carry a poison stab, fast offensive steels like Durant are getting a bit of attention, and while hardly any of those switch in comfortably, they do offer more options in terms of pressuring Togekiss rather than the token electric and all other fast mons being unable to do anything vs it. Not to mention, it happens to be one of the best fighting and dark checks in the tier, but struggles mightily with knock off in a tier where the move is now a necessity. So, where do we stand? Clearly not that many people think it's an outright priority, but it's also noteworthy that hardly anything can win a game the way Togekiss can with the utility it has.

- Zarude is even more behind, which at this point might be a testament than the arguments vs it are starting to dwindle. Zarude is awesome, but struggles mightily to force the issues in this metagame, too many pivots, fast threats, Cobalion, stuff that kos it but it can't ko back in return, Togekiss being amazing, etc etc. You don't really lose anything by putting Zarude on a team though, and it has so much that it's something that is almost always gonna be worthwhile. But too much for the tier? Would be interested to see why people voted for it, we heard the anti-ban arguments loud and clear in Tony and 49's posts in the last NP thread, but not much about the pro ban recently.

Anyway, that's the short of it for the survey. We're definitely considering acting on the more pointed out pokemons, but if people want to talk more about their opinion and why they voted which way, feel free as usual!

 

[Feliburn]

Very cool survey, I'm gonna post my thoughts on the mons and try to be as clear as possible cause honestly, I hate them all:

Starting with the dog, like evi said, this mon shines because of its ground stab Thousand Arrows, meaning your ground immunes are no longer ground immunes, so you HAVE to run a good ground resist or otherwise you get overwhelmed easily because no longer is zydog strong, it's also super fast. Sure, it no longer has the ability to change sets like last gen but it's so good in this meta it doesn't have the need to. Our ground resists are: Zarude, Golisopod, Dhelmise and, an offensive check, Heracross despite taking 40 from arrows + burn if using the guts set. I feel like, with some exceptions, any other than these mons is trying to justify using niche mons to call zydog not broken. Also it has the tools to come on top vs these mons in certain scenarios, like having superpower to blow zarude away, you can outrprioritize golisopod with espeed so it cant rkill you and you could force it out if it ends up in emergency exit range, not to mention none of the mentioned mons like taking an outrage to the face. Sure, the second scenario is super specific and in the first one u'd have to get the play but who cares, the tools are there. Another semi reliable switchin is phys def Gastrodon, able to tank a thousand arrows and KOing back with Ice beam, and Noivern can always switch into arrows if healthy enough and threatening it, however there's no way people think having these 2 makes the dog healthy, especially when gastro gets toxic'd in half the games.

I've gotten into so many fights over the past few weeks thanks to this mon, I'll try to be as clear as possible when talking about it so people can at least try to see where I'm coming from. First I'm gonna go ahead and get the Quick Draw Quick Claw set out of the way, it's literally an RNG fishing set that rewards 0 skill, basically forcing a coinflip every turn. Now onto a more competitive set in Calm Mind. My issue with this set is solely the fact that once you get it going it's so hard to stop, like I've ran teams with Incineroar Steelix as my dark and ground and people still call it weak to slowbro. Sure, there are way more reliable answers to this mon, the more viable ones being Gastrodon and Snorlax, and other options like VinCune and CM Reuni, but why use reuni when u can use slowbro? It's mainly just to beat opposing slowbro, which is a fair strategy if u need to deal with it. Now some checks people like to name are Seismitoad, which I'll be honest, I fucking hate, especially as a slowbro answer.


0 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Galar: 152-182 (38.5 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The common defensive seismitoad doesnt 2HKO slowbro, and this mon runs Shuca Berry half the time meaning it has an even easier time either setting up if ur weak, or fishing for a sludge poison to try and set up later thank to the trusty Regenerator. It also runs Colbur berry to destroy Zarude and Incineroar. A good way of beating it is offensive pressure like Zydog or Chandelure. And when I say offensive pressure I mean mega offensive, kinda needing to hard into it before it gets more than one boost cause otherwise ur trading ur mon for a weakened slowbro who can regen back. "But Feli that's just situational stuff, ur not always gonna get the play right or get the status", sure but who's to say ur opponent will also get the play right if they are relying on offensive pressure to beat the mon, you have way more opportunities to get it right throughout a game than they are. Point being is how specific u gotta go when building to handle the mon and that's not even mentioning the diff moves it can use to lure in stuff.

You know I used to be part of the "Togekiss is a necessary evil for the tier" but as of lately I've honestly been hating this pokemon. It might have to do with this:

rofl

Regardless, the way I feel about Togekiss is v hard to explain. It's a fantastic pokemon, checks so much, acts as a glue, breaker, spreads status, can wish up, it's great. However its so fucking UGHH, its hard to rkill and all it does is spam twave and flinch down anything thats slower and certain steels like Cobalion or Steelix can get chipped at so easily cause it can also run flamethrower for coverage if it wanted to. It feels like the best way to kill togekiss is knocking it off and pressure with stealth rocks, which isn't really that hard to do considering prime knockers like Golisopod and Mienshao force it in, either that or have a reliable faster electric like Raikou and Xurkitree on your team (my toxtricity has been 1v1d in the past). Keep in mind this mon can also run Heal Bell to handle with toxic pokemon who try to pressure with status, like this shit is so versatile. Idk like, this mon feels like a massive annoyance and still adds a lot of RNG bullshit while playing. I'm probably more annoyed about it rn than normally but I cant say this mon aint stupid either.

I'm gonna ramble a bit and say how hard it is to account for all 3 at the top without going a v specific way in the builder while still staying in "viable" ground. To me they feel restrictive in a certain way and idk if I'm the only one who feels that way, would love to hear more about it from the rest of the playerbase.

Regarding Zarude, evi said it perfectly: "you dont lose much by slapping a zarude on ur team", it's just a fantastic glue with plenty of answers.

Anyway thats p much everything I wanted to get out, I know the surveys speak one way but they were not posted on forums so that still leaves a big portion of opinions we missed on so hopefully more people have the initiative to post their thoughts.

Also remember, these are my personal thoughts and I could very well be wrong and missing a lot.

Thanks for reading

 

[Umbra Soul]

I voted on seeing potential suspects for both Zygarde-10% and Togekiss, but would not mind seeing one for Galar-bro. As for while I'll try my best to try and keep each of these short.

Zygarde-10% - As both Evi and Feli pointed out, you really only need to do two things with Zydog: Slap a CB on it and click Thousand Arrows. Over 90% of the time this mon is in, you click Arrows, there is almost no draw back to doing it because one of three things will happen: Something dies, They switch something out with the intent of sacking the switch in potential, or it's one of literally few viable mons that resists Arrows OR one of few super bulky neutral types that you throw your literal investments into Max HP/Max Defense and a +Def nature in your best effort to avoid an Arrows 2HKO. There are very few options that can outpace Zydog, meaning that you need really good offensive pressure against it or or to heavily rely on revenge killing it with an undamaged mon, which means avoiding chip damage for as much of a match as possible which is a pretty restrictive aspect of the game. Any of the netural mons that I said tend to go Max HP/Def+ (things like Milotic/Gastro/Cune) if they are your way of dealing with this monster, do drop as a 2HKO if it's carrying Outrage as a back up move, Zarude is such a popular option to deter it that Superpower can help whittle non Jungle Healing sets, you can customize the set to carry Stone Edge to help handle those using bulkier Togekiss as an answer to Zydog doing an extra at least 25% over Arrows. Let's not overlook that Zydog also pairs really well with the the top pivoting options in Zarude and Mienshao, and mons that due to their superb typing can force easy to predict double switches (*cough* Toge and Galar Bro *cough*) so it's not exactly having the hardest time getting in on the battlefield just to spam Arrows.

Togekiss - Only reason I voted for this thing is that, RNG is a really fickle thing. It does so much overall for the tier, ranging from acting as a buffer for fighting types, mostly countering Zarude when it's not running Iron Tail against me, capable of spreading status, being a reliable defogger/cleric, and flinching everything to death. Togekiss is weird in the sense, we have valid answers to a degree as it has a limited options on its sets to fill in and can't cover everything well enough so something is gonna take advantage of what the set isn't running, but Togekiss also can turn would be counters and hard checks into putty because of the fact they could be slower than it and it flinches them to death. Feli already posted an image of this, but for all the fantastic things Togekiss offers us; it entirely flips a simple aspect of the game of certain mons should have a fighting chance against it into an almost 50/50 turn of moving or not. We have answers to it, but many of them have to be wary of chip damage because the offensive checks don't have any recovery in general and well if it's the type to run a fire move then steels aren't even an answer anymore.

Galar-Bro - I have a love/hate on this thing. I've been trying a Quick Draw/Claw set to see how much RNG I can pull to cheesing wins, and well it doesn't do it as well as Togekiss, but the activation spawn for QD/Claw seems to be pretty fickle so far. As Feli put it, it's just a RNG Fish scam that doesn't have a reliable influence like Togekiss because it's not getting free turns and requires several turns of set up to truly be effective. If you can properly get it rolling, it's obviously a huge problem, it's just getting it rolling is actually somewhat of a problem in my experience. However, there is the good point that it acts as a solid answer to various Pokemon in the tier that gives it a chance to set up and lure in one of its many checks and using a damage reducing berry, may let it bypass potential checks and let it snowball more boosts. Most teams are equipped with 1-2 mons that answer it well enough in general, but if it can bypass one, then most of its job is already done truthfully. I agree with Feli in the sense that you require heavy offensive pressure to deal with Galar-Bro and not a lot of mons typically want to switch into it without you at least scouting out what moves its running along with Sludge Bomb as its sets can be pretty customizable.

Zarude - Zarude is a fantastic glue mon in the tier, every set has an equal opportunity cost of missing out on something which gives a heavy group of Pokemon that are able to act as a check or counter to it. It does not hax its way through the tier nor can it overpower the tier with 1 move. The only thing Zarude is guilty of is being so good of a Grass pokemon it's the only grass pokemon in the RU tier by usage, and by virtue is the only thing limiting Celebi from being our full time Zydog answer.

 

[A Very Gay Girl]

Hey all, so recently I've been thinking about the RU metagame and in particular, I've noticed that there a lot of pokemon in this tier that would see a noticeable benefit if they were allowed to use Baton Pass. Now, I don't think that baton passing in conjunction with stat boosts would be healthy for the RU meta, but the idea I'm having is this: Would it be feasible to un-ban Baton Pass, but only under the condition that it is not used alongside moves or abilities that change the user's stats? More commonly referred to as "dry passing", I think the access to Baton Pass while still not being allowed to give free stat boosts to teammates would be a good addition to the metagame. Multiple pokemon viable in the RU tier, such as Espeon, Togekiss, Durant, Toxicroak, Sylveon, and Umbreon would all benefit greatly from the addition of a momentum gaining move, and, provided that it is still banned alongside stat altering moves & abilities, I don't think that it will become unhealthy for the metagame. Additionally, several less viable Pokemon in the RU tier, while not being nearly as common or consistent, will also benefit a noticeable amount from having a dry Baton Pass. Among these Pokemon include Pyukumuku, Shedinja, Indeedee-F, and every Eeveelution not mentioned previously, with the exception of Vaporeon as it already has access to Flip Turn and therefore would not see much benefit to gaining Baton Pass. All in all, while I don't think that Baton Passing stat boosts should be unbanned, I do hope that this post will at least bring some attention to the idea of allowing dry Baton Passing if nothing else, as I believe it would open up the metagame for some more creative builds on Pokemon that are already solid in the current metagame as is.

Edit: Grammar & spelling corrections

 

[Aquarius Ghost ❤]

Hey all, today's post is about Togekiss and Sableye.

Can we suspect this mon already? Like omg it's such a pain in the ass to deal with. Have u ever seen a Pokemon that can flinch a SpDef Steelix to death?? Cuz I have and it has been done by Togekiss. People usually use this as an argument "There is plenty of counterplay to Togekiss," I agree there is plenty of counterplay to Togekiss, however, they are not truly safe. Possible the best answer to Togekiss is Registeel, but even then Registeel still can't handle Np Togekiss too well because of Flamethrower. I also have seen plenty of arguments saying that Electric-types are good checks to Togekiss. Eh, I kinda disagree with this one because Xurk is kinda frail and can be easily pressured. If your running HDB pivot Raikou you end up getting worn down easily. If you run Leftovers CM Raikou you become prone to hazard which is not what Raikou wants. Toxtricity also fears NP Togekiss and can be flinched down. Also, Togekiss can run fucking Heal Bell, so status moves do nothing against it (what a broken mon lmao). So Togekiss is kinda pretty restricting, no true counterplay, and pretty annoying to deal with. It's the type of mon where ur forced to run Steel or Electric-type Pokemon to survive. However, if we suspect test Togekiss and it gets banned we might be losing one of our best glues in RU. Tbf, Togekiss is also a good Zygarde 10% (zydog is also a problem in RU), Zarude, and Mienshao check. So if we lose Togekiss we might have trouble with other Pokemon in the future, which is kinda lame because it's such a helpful Pokemon, but it's also a nuisance. AHHHHHH I hate Pokemon.

Now on to Sableye.
Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Knock Off
- Recover
- Dazzling Gleam / Will-O-Wisp
- Encore

This is the set I have been personally using. Sableye mainly works on stalls teams, so if you're a stall hater ignore this part!! Sableye fills such a good role on stall teams because of its ability, Prankster. Prankster is what mainly enables Sableye to be such a menace because all of its non-attacking moves have priority, so you can just Will-O-Wisp physical attackers and weaken them easily. With Zarude being in the tier it kinda makes Sableye unviable, however, Sableye Knock Off boots from Zarude is kinda nice because you make it weak to hazards. That's also why this set has Dazzling Gleam to pressure Obstagoon and Zarude. Lemme show u some calcs: 0 SpA Sableye Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zarude: 86-102 (24.5 - 29%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and 0 SpA Sableye Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Obstagoon: 98-116 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage. Set-up Sweepers like Barbaracle or Linoone or Cloyster are like a snack to Sableye because of Encore, so Sableye truly just stops any non-Dark-type Set-up sweeper in its track. As you see from these calcs Dazzling Gleam Sab can do more damage to Zarude than it can recover from Jungle healing. Also, who doesn't like a Knock off user on their team, like I said Sableye can only fit on stall don't try and put it on HO or smth lol. Anyway, Sableye can also wall , , , , , CM , and many other pokemon I forgot lol. Tbh, Sableye can truly stomach any hit and hit em with a wisp, you can also run Spdef Sableye with Toxic to fuck Togekiss up. Anyway, thanks for reading this post guys. (ignore my shit grammar) (to end it all up Togekiss is broken, Sableye is so good on stall)

 

[Fabi_ODST]

Hey all, so recently I've been thinking about the RU metagame and in particular, I've noticed that there a lot of pokemon in this tier that would see a noticable benefit if they were allowed to use Baton Pass. Now, I don't think that baton passing in conjunction with stat boosts would be healthy for the RU meta, but the idea I'm having is this: Would it be feasible to unban Baton Pass, but only under the condition that it is not used alongside moves or abilities that change the user's stats? More commonly referred to as "dry passing", I think the access to Baton Pass while still not being allowed to give free stat boosts to teammates would be a good addition to the metagame. Multiple pokemon viable in the RU tier, such as the Espeon, Togekiss, Durant, Toxicroak, Sylveon, and Umbreon would all benefit greatly from the addition of a momentum gaining move, and, provided that it is still banned alongside stat altering moves & abilities, I don't think that it will become unhealthy for the metagame. Additionally, several less viable Pokemon in the RU tier, while not being nearly as common or consistent, will also benefit a noticable amount from having a dry Baton Pass. Among these Pokemon include Pyukumuku, Shedinja, Indeedee-F, and every Eeveelution not mentioned previously, with the exception of Vaporeon as it already has access to Flip Turn and therefore would not see much benefit to gaining Baton Pass. All in all, while I don't think that Baton Passing stat boosts should be unbanned, I do hope that this post will at least bring some attention to the idea of allowing dry Baton Passing if nothing else, as I believe it would open up the metagame for some more creative builds on Pokemon that are already solid in the current metagame as is.

In my understanding, the baton pass clause is present because OU established it, so I am not sure about the viability of making this happen. With that being said, I would be 100% on board with this, as it would allow certain passive mons to be more useful in offense or balance:

Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Toxic
- Recover
- Soak

This mon is currently relegated to certain stall teams, but with dry passing it could act as a pretty decent pivot against physical sweepers on more offensive teams. The last move is relatively flexible, with screens support and memento as other options

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Wish
- Hyper Voice
- Heal Bell

This would basically act as a discount clef, passing fat wishes safely to its partners and healing any status moves. It could act as a fairy type defensive alternative over togekiss or galar weezing, while mantaining a strong offensive presence in hyper voice

Indeedee-F (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Baton Pass
- Dazzling Gleam
- Trick / Hyper Voice / Mystical Fire

Ok, this is a weird one, but given how these mon forces switches so often, having the option to pivot into an aproppiate answer on the switch could swing the momentum of a battle if predicted correctly, and it would give it a niche over its male counterpart (with modest nature, it hits slightly harder than male indeedee, sacrificing its speed in the process)

In regard to the ban suspects, I am surprised Toxtricity was not mentioned, but that may be because I was away for a while XD From the mons present there, I would say togekiss is the most annoying of the bunch, but far from being the most broken. It reminds me a lot of Jirachi in UU, where it can go trough its checks and counters thanks to paraflinching. I don't its inherently unhealthy per se, just opressive against slower playstyles like hard balance or stall. If people want it banned, I would not oppose to a suspect.

 

[CryoGyro]

I'd rather we wait a bit before launching a Togekiss suspect. With RUPL now underway, we're likely gonna see a lot of replays featuring it, as well as potential answers thought up by good players. EviGaro's latest post already alludes to the rise of some more obscure ways to pressure it, and a team tournament should be a great place to showcase them. It's easy to be all "zomg you can't toxic it cause it can run heal bell!!! np blows away steels!!!" but what it's realistically gonna have is dictated by general trends, team structure, and player preferences. I'm not convinced that a mon with base 80 Speed, an item reliance, and a lot of tradeoff decisions to make is gonna end up with counterplay that's too narrow. It's already fine in many players' eyes, and the time is ripe for new ideas to surface.

With that said, I'm not saying there's no way Togekiss is unhealthy. Again, RUPL should give us a lot of decent games to analyze and see its effect on slower cores, assuming players are confident enough to use them. I just don't want us to throw away a teambuilding asset that compresses a lot of uncommon roles (fairy, defogger, solid fighting answer that still becomes easier to pressure after knock, which is healthy), allowing for more flexibility from other team slots. If Togekiss truly holds slower Pokemon back too much, fine, though I'd argue current Pokemon as a game heavily favors proactive teams over reactive, Togekiss or not.

 

[xoPure]

I am very much all for another round of suspect tests and I feel that the voting held really showed what's a little too overbearing in the metagame.

But in terms what should go in order, Zygarde-10% should 100% be on the chopping block asap. There is so little in the tier that can come in as a reliable counter to the Choice Band set, it murders under prepped teams and is such a powerful presence that it forces a handful of mons to run Shuca Berry just to be able to play the game. It has the most broken move in the game on top of a STAB bonus (Thousand Arrows) and on top of that it has a wide range of coverage moves to the point where it doesn't have to run dragon stab to be able to OHKO resists. Volt-Turn cores allow this mon to just kill all 6 if you really wanted to. Zygarde just straight up fucks offense/balance and has very little to no counter play on other archetypes.

Togekiss should also get a suspect, but we should wait until the back end of RUPL. The T-Wave flinch shit is a very aggravating set to go against, which is standard at the moment. As we all know, Serene Grace is a stupid ability that gives this mon the ability to muster past its slower defensive counters by spamming Air Slash with a 60% chance to just do it again. It's a fantastic glue that you can slap on literally any team that needs a defogger. If you don't like the coin flips to beat steels, Togekiss also gets Flamethrower, giving it an option against its biggest threats. It also eats weaker neutral hits and in general is just a hard mon to kill for balance and defense builds, but possible with knocking off its boots.

Next should be Glowbro, a less broken mon in my eyes, but has its moments where it does everything. The Quick Claw-Draw set is just corny, coinflips to lose a mon is pretty dumb imo and takes away the competitive nature of the game. Someone shouldn't be rewarded with a kill because of a true 50/50. But its CM set is a beast of its own. This shit is almost impossible to stop once it gets 2-3 boosts and I've seen plenty of games that have just led to a leave once it gets there. Shuca/Colbur give it that extra punch to be able to its kill its main offensive checks once its boosted. Its best counter play is to just boost your own along side it and play the game of who crits first. I feel like this mon will truly be king once Zygarde is gone, and it will certainly be deserving of a test.

Finally, Zarude has been a top 3 mon since its drop to RU but its not because its "broken." In my eyes, Zarude is far from broken and future bans won't even take it to that level. There is too much in the tier that can pivot in and threaten it out. Yes its an excellent glue and can fit on basically every team, but in how many of those games is Zarude an overbearing presence for your opponent? Its a good mon on paper, but there is just too much at the moment that can deal with it.

I also want to talk about a mon that was completely overlooked by the survey but can and will fill the role of Zygarde when it's gone.
Toxtricity is so fucking dumb right now, and itll get worse once its #1 threat is removed. This shit just nukes everything including its resists. Steelix of all mons dies in three Boombursts and it OHKOs almost everything else. Toxtricity + any fighting type ruin defensive and balance cores. I don't want to go too in depth into it right now but when zygarde is gone, I'll be posting more about it.

 

[Ningildo]

I mean, when it comes to obnoxiously strong breakers with little defensive counterplay...

Zygarde is good, yes. Ground resists are limited, too. But Zygarde only really starts being effective as a breaker when things are chipped into Tarrows 2HKO range and it gets a switch into something that is both threatened to be OHKO'd and is needed by the opposing side to not lose to something else. The second one is pretty easy to accomplish because we have so many goddamn VoltTurning pivots in this tier that it's hard not to have one. The first condition is harder to do, despite the tier's lack of many Ground resists (Celebi is actually viable, though, use it). Many bulky Waters can switch in as interim measure and either stay healthy to do it again later via recovery (Milo, Gastro) or attempt to make progress (Seismi using Knock, Suicune catching an opposing Water with Toxic). Obviously this isn't foolproof, as these mons are often needed as a answer to Fires and opposing Waters, but this is to show that it can still be played around if, for some reason, you decided not to pack a good answer to a top threat in the metagame. And if Outrage is your plan on blowing past Ground resists, one of the most common defensive cores in the tier, TogeLix, punishes it pretty hard for it, not to mention that Togekiss can switch into Tarrows if need be. Yes, it can be hit by Stone Edge (which defensive Togekiss can easily live from full), but if a Choiced breaker can't smack checks by predicting well, it's probably not good to begin with. Hell, Steelix can take a Tarrows if need be if it's above 66.6% ( 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 200-236 (56.4 - 66.6%) ) and Toxic it or smack it with a STAB attack, not to mention that the prediction game all Choiced breakers need to play can lead to it using Edge or Superpower instead.

You could argue that all these non-Ground resitant answers can be chipped, knocked, statused and so on, either making them shakier answers or outright invalidating them as checks, but if you've gotten your opponent answers to that point of no longer being such, you earned the "Zydoge spams Tarrows to clean up" endgame. And that amount of support needed for a breaker really makes me question if it really is that broken.


But while we're talking about breakers that lack counterplay

I hate this little shit like you wouldn't believe.

Usually, the tier's goto answers to Electrics tend to be Gastro, Seimsi, the Grass type conglomerate and Grounds that don't melt to potential Grass/Water coverage (ie Grass Knot/Energy Ball/Scald). Toxtricity, on the other hand, blows 90% of the previous right the fuck out with Boomburst alone. Ghosts can switch into a Boomburst to pivot around it, but can either get put into the VoltTurn blender or drop to Overdrive. So, in my opinion, the most solid answers to Toxtricity need to:

1. Not die to a follow up Boomburst (or answer it offensively before it hits again)
2. Not die to a Overdrive
3. Be blender proof

The first two are already constraining as is, as it leaves only Steelix, Rhyperior, Registeel (shaky af), Dhelmise, Golurk and Porygon 2 as answers. The kicker is that the ones that fall into all categories (Lix, Rhyp, Golurk) all lack recovery (and Golurk needs either Colbur or bulk invesment (although iirc not much is needed) to have more than one pivot attempt lest it drop to Snarl) and those that do get recovery can get stuck in the VoltTurn blender.

However, because of the generally offensively inclined nature of the current metagame, Toxtricity has a hard time to get more than one or two targets it can get in on (after one of the 2000 VoltTurn mons does its thing) and force out due it's lacking speed tier, which is why I imagine it either didn't make the voting list of potential suspects or get any votes (don't really know the specifics of that survey), while Zygarde, who breaks far less effectively but threatens Offense a lot more due it's contrasting excellent speed tier, is on top of the list.

And despite my dislike for this mon, I don't think it is suspect worthy atm, as Wish support means Lix can stave it off longer and Offense can generally play around it with offensive pressure with half the tier's mons outpacing it.


I have a short novel's worth of thoughts on the other mons on that survey (or were brought up), but break's over.

 

[lighthouses]

The main arguments brought up for zygarde being balanced really like to downplay how easy it is to just click outrage on -most- scenarios, all of the steel types dont want to switch into thousand arrows and if you hard togekiss on it, the zygarde user can just switch. Can you predict it and hard into say, a cobalion on outrage to punish zygarde? yes; but these 'mindgames' are always disfavourable to the person playing against the zygarde in a way that just makes the mon too easy and risk free to use relative to its impact. It always comes down to hoping the zyg hits a 3 turn outrage as it ko's one of the many mons that just barely tank 3 thousand arrows so you punish with your steel, by which point the zygarde user already punched a big hole in your team.