Metagame NP: RU Stage 6: Heavy Metal and Reflective (ALL 3 SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING POST BANS META NOW)

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Patolegend!

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Technically this is true, but I still believe it's more overcentralization than innovation. Granted, Muk does have a niche here that I never even knew about, but it fails to do anything notable outside of that. To show you what I mean, take Arcanine and Weezing in OU. They were used for the sole sake of checking Mega Mawile, but they were more or less useless outside of that role. While Muk checks more mons than Arcanine or Weezing did, it's still a fairly garbage mon, not even meriting a spot on the RU viability ranking. If a Pokemon requires shitmons to check/counter it, then it's a big factor in indicating its brokenness in a metagame. Not the sole factor, but a major one.
Ok, I can see that when countering one ridiculous 'mon; and Arcanine still has a niche in countering Mega Metagross I think in OU with Intimidate. The example given though (Muk) stops more than one 'mon (and important ones at that), and thus doesn't it become viable in the CURRENT RU meta?

I see what you mean, I just dislike a lot of the examples being given as they can actually do something in the tier, and also bring variety to it.
 

atomicllamas

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Ok, I can see that when countering one ridiculous 'mon; and Arcanine still has a niche in countering Mega Metagross I think in OU with Intimidate. The example given though (Muk) stops more than one 'mon (and important ones at that), and thus doesn't it become viable in the CURRENT RU meta?

I see what you mean, I just dislike a lot of the examples being given as they can actually do something in the tier, and also bring variety to it.
Yes, Muk is viable, (probably should be like C- on viability ranking thread) but unlike Mont implied it can't switch into Draco Meteor, and it only "beats" 3 of the S-rank Pokemon, not 5 (loses to Dragalge / Cresselia / Moltres), and since it has no recovery, reliable or otherwise (AV not lefties :[) it can't really be used as a catch all for S rank mons, as it is worn down much faster then they are.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk: 202-238 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
with average rolls and SR this 2HKOes (chance to 2HKO without rocks o.o)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk: 254-300 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Muk Ice Punch vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 170-200 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
even with low rolls it is losing to Dragalge cause Ice Punch doesn't do enough damage

other suspects:
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk: 108-127 (30.6 - 36%) -- 48.2% chance to 3HKO
it can switch into mega berd once, but after that it is cleanly 2HKOed

it counters Serperior I guess, but still easy enough to wear down, only needs to be at 57% w/ SR up for LO Serp to 2hko with Leaf Storm


So while Muk is a "viable" Pokemon in RU, it isn't very good, and it doesn't really work as more than a one-time switch in to any of the suspects (and not even a switch-in to Dragalge which p much always 2HKOes after rocks and wins even if it doesn't, lol). If you want variety in the tier you shouldn't want to keep Dragalge as it pretty much forces every team to use a Fairy - Steel core (well more so a momentum killing bulky steel) even if it doesn't really fit on every team (see offenses struggle for a Steel-type that actually can switch into this).
 

Miridy

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A great amount of Dragalge's also have enough speed to outspeed base 50s like Muk, so it gets 2hked.
Anyways, I finished laddering, so I'll throw my two cents.

I have seen an huge amount of Assault Vest users, don't know if it's a RU thing or simply overpreparing against said three threats but still.
I also think it was a bit rushed up suspecting three 'mons at once seeing we didn't get a chance to analyze the three of them alone with what they brought to the Metagame and whatnot, then again you might say the three of them are a bit "unreal" by RU Standard, so the Council just wanted to do away with those quicky.
The Suspect is about to end though, so it doesn't really matter anymore.

Dragalge: Ban

Honestly, the first time I met Dragalge it was when he ohkoed my steel type of choice at the time, Durant with... Dragon Pulse, while yes Durant has pathetic hp and special defense I was surprised by that, even bulkyer things like Cobalion gets 2hked by Dragon Pulse, this is even excluding Draco Meteor who is able to threaten just about everyone bar fairies who get smashed by Sludge Bomb anyways, the problem doesn't end here, Dragalge is very bulky 65/90/123 are nothing to spit at, coupled by Dragon and Poison who grants important resistances to fire, grass, water, electric and fight attacks, also a neutrality to fairy type attacks, something that no other dragons in the tier can have, as a matter of fact Dragon Pulse from Mega Sceptile fails to ohko
him and with sr on the field only has a low 19% chance to ohko it, the physical defense isn't as great as the special, but its still enough to resists important attacks like Escavalier's Drill Run while HP Fire has a 72% chance to 2hko it without Stealth Rocks AND without items on Dragalge.
Of course Choice Specs Dragalge is by far the most used item at the moment, but one shouldn't leave aside stuff like life orb, draco plate and... assault vest.
Even with Choice Specs, you can't literally stop easily Dragalge, nor actually truly punish him due to its bulk, and this is not even taking hp fire in consideration.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 122-144 (37.6 - 44.4%)
252+ Atk Escavalier Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) (on a switch)
You don't really punish Dragalge with Escavalier, pursuit is only a 3hko, even with stealth rocks, Dragalge still has the upperhand against Esca being faster and able to cause more damage, without getting punished too much by switching out.
Special Defensive Bronzong is in the same boat, actually he can't even pursuit Dragalge and earthquake might fail the 2hko, while drill run at least it's a clean 2hko
You could argue that Escavalier/Bronzong might be paired with a wish user like Alomomola but Alo itself is a free opportunity for Dragalge to come in except for scald lucky burn(speaking of it, Dragalge also learns it, and it's useful to cripple incoming Bronzong/Escavalier switch ins), and you force yourself on a risky situation (if Dragalge is specs, otherwise you still lose).
Oh, another fun thing, draco meteor is a clean 2hko with rocks against assault vest slowking, which is also slower than Dragalge.
Cresselia might be an okay "answer" to it, but still, psyshock fails to ohko, and sludge bomb has an high chance to 2hko it (coupled with an additional 30% poison chance, yep).
And yeah, you can't add Cresselia on every team, can you now?
Long story short, you are forced to sack something every time you face Dragalge, this might not be crucial for offensive-minded teams, but defensive and balanced teams greatly suffer from it, well, I suppose it's fun to press a button and watch things easily die, but at some point we need to get serious in order to create competitive tiers.

Serperior: Ban
This guy is probably the only reason I put Protect on Pidgeot, this and... specs jolteon I guess?
In a way its even worse than Dragalge, hes faster than majority of the tier, with only Fletch, Pidgeot AFTER Mega Evolving, Scarf Moltres Hitmonlee if he manages to use Unburden and scarf Emboar.
Ok, really the point is: Serperior manages to easily set up on pokemon like Rhypherior, Alomomola, Kabutops, Gligar if it lacks toxic/Serp has sub etc, and it's not like you can't use these 'mons, they have a valuable, very important role in the metagame, so sooner or later you're bound to create easy set up opportunities for Serperior.
I have seen majority of Serperior holding a Life Orb, but the most scary were the leftovers one, since left gives Serperior artificial bulk, hp rock was also a great choice allowing it to smack non scarf Moltres pdef Golbat (since y'know, hoping to check Pangoro and stuff) Fletch while still able to damage Mega Abomasnow, Mega Pidgeot before mega evolution and Mega Glalie.
Knock Off while situational is a great help against Bronzong, Escavalier and Golbat (especially if the special defensive one) still needs a mention, along with Leech Seed, which, like leftovers makes him more "durable".
Bouffalant might be able to stop him, but yeah its pretty limited as a 'mon, its more a niche thing, Amoonguss has an easier time, though orb +2 hp fire hurts him and sludge bomb fails to ohko him but eh, it's not something that can be fitted on every teams, as such, most of the time you just use something faster that can revenge kill it easily like scarf Moltres, scarf Emboar and Mega Pidgeot, which is cool and all, until you get hit by Glare/Knock Off.




Mega Pidgeot: Leaning towards Ban
Well, it's the suspect I used the most so I might be a little biased here but I can't see him on the same level of Dragalge and Serp, still I think I would pretty much just ban it too, Hurricane confuse chance, coupled by its destructive power is nothing to joke at, most teams I have seen gets smashed by HP Grass variants, thankfully I didn't saw many of them on the ladder, but it's a clean 2hko on Rhypherior, its most used check, while also being faster than the entire non scarf tier with Mega Scep and Jolteon being the only one faster, one of these lose the 1 on 1 against Pid.
Also access to U-turn in order to get in Dugtrio is very dangerous and quite easy to pull off tbh.
 
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ALRIGHT THOUGHTS ON SUSPECTS RN

DRAGALGE: okay yeah I'm pretty much ban oriented for this guy. Adaptability Draco Meteor and Sludge Wave hits like a fucking truck and many of its "checks" (LMAO) can be easily worn down with a coverage move of choice i.e. focus blast for Registeel. literally destroys offense/balanced if it's able to get free switches in (which isn't that hard if you play smart) and limits teambuilding to the point in which people are using AV Muk to attempt to check it. Escavalier seems to be its only solid check as of rn (Bronzong maybe??) but HP Fire exists.

Serperior: 100% BAN. 140 BP Nasty Plot + 113 Speed + 95/95 Defenses is ridiculous. Pretty self explanatory. It does have its fair share of checks, as it has a hard time breaking through some dedicated walls without a a prior boost, but a bit of weakening would usually be able to do the job.

Mega Pidgeot: I'm a little bit iffy here. Mega Pidgeot is fast and a 100% accurate Hurricane is incredibly strong but the meta did fine even when it existed. Bulky steels/rocks in all forms seriously hinders its effectiveness and SR limits its switch ins. It's also really frail when compared with the other suspects, so strong STABS could easily KO it. I don't see how this is really "unhealthy" for the meta as it doesn't severely limit teambuilding that much (I mean, every team should have a reliable scarfer + sr anyway) and 'mons that were viable before the introduction of M-Pidgeot can still function pretty well (Magneton, Fletchinder, Scarf Clawitzer, etc.)
 
ALRIGHT THOUGHTS ON SUSPECTS RN

DRAGALGE: okay yeah I'm pretty much ban oriented for this guy. Adaptability Draco Meteor and Sludge Wave hits like a fucking truck and many of its "checks" (LMAO) can be easily worn down with a coverage move of choice i.e. focus blast for Registeel. literally destroys offense/balanced if it's able to get free switches in (which isn't that hard if you play smart) and limits teambuilding to the point in which people are using AV Muk to attempt to check it. Escavalier seems to be its only solid check as of rn (Bronzong maybe??) but HP Fire exists.

Serperior: 100% BAN. 140 BP Nasty Plot + 113 Speed + 95/95 Defenses is ridiculous. Pretty self explanatory. It does have its fair share of checks, as it has a hard time breaking through some dedicated walls without a a prior boost, but a bit of weakening would usually be able to do the job.

Mega Pidgeot: I'm a little bit iffy here. Mega Pidgeot is fast and a 100% accurate Hurricane is incredibly strong but the meta did fine even when it existed. Bulky steels/rocks in all forms seriously hinders its effectiveness and SR limits its switch ins. It's also really frail when compared with the other suspects, so strong STABS could easily KO it. I don't see how this is really "unhealthy" for the meta as it doesn't severely limit teambuilding that much (I mean, every team should have a reliable scarfer + sr anyway) and 'mons that were viable before the introduction of M-Pidgeot can still function pretty well (Magneton, Fletchinder, Scarf Clawitzer, etc.)
You don't really mention that Pidgeot can pick apart offensive teams without really trying, and you just assume that all teams run bulky Steels? Pidgeot may not be able to beat Bulky steels, but its teammates provide the support needed to get rid of said Pokemon and allow Pidgeon to sweep through the opposing team, which is pretty scary, considering how easily Steel types can be trapped (with Pursuit, Dugtrio), and Registeel can be easily worn down and often caught on switches with Heat Wave. I can expand on this a lot more, but I definitely think you're not looking at how amazing Pidgeot is/can be.
 
I'm just wondering here. How likely is it that Serperior will tier shift before this is over? He had a LOT of hype for that HA and this next shift is about to be a big one
 
I've already posted about the suspects, but I just wanted to reply to the last page of discussion. As 49 said, we're all friends here; we can argue without trying to insult each other about their philosophy/opinion. We're all entitled to our opinion, and we can have a discussion without making jabs at one another. It's disheartening to see users I really esteem doing so. With that out of the way,

I'm just wondering here. How likely is it that Serperior will tier shift before this is over? He had a LOT of hype for that HA and this next shift is about to be a big one
We don't really care about how future tier shifts may bring a suspect-worthy mon up, it might not and then we'll still have to play with that suspect-worthy mon. That being said, this should wrap up before the tier shifts so that should be a non-issue.
 
Mega Pidgeot:

B.A.N.

Just spam hurricane to win.Heat wave for steel types,if there's a scarfed pokemon,use tailwind,u-turn to keep momentum,work up if you really want to use it.

Serperior

Ban

Spam Leaf storm to win.Do you see the patterrn here? :) There are some minor counters to serperior,but still after the 2/3x spa,if you don't have a spd pokemon,you're not in a good spot.

Dragalge

Don't ban

Honestly,I was surprised to see this thing get suspect tested.I've never had any problems with it,but I can see why many people can get destroyed by specs adaptability draco.


Keep in mind,this is just MY OPINION.
 
Mega Pidgeot:

B.A.N.

Just spam hurricane to win.Heat wave for steel types,if there's a scarfed pokemon,use tailwind,u-turn to keep momentum,work up if you really want to use it.

Serperior

Ban

Spam Leaf storm to win.Do you see the patterrn here? :) There are some minor counters to serperior,but still after the 2/3x spa,if you don't have a spd pokemon,you're not in a good spot.

Dragalge

Don't ban

Honestly,I was surprised to see this thing get suspect tested.I've never had any problems with it,but I can see why many people can get destroyed by specs adaptability draco.


Keep in mind,this is just MY OPINION.
Though I certainly respect your opinion, you personally not having problems with dragalge is not typically the best reasoning for why it is and is not banworthy. For example, I personally did not have much trouble with serperior, but that was typically either due to me slapping a few defensive checks like golbat,or (for the most part) my opponent not building around serperior all too well(carrying things to handle its checks well). I think you should have more concrete reasoning for why it isn't banworthy in your eyes rather than "I didn't struggle with it; therefore, it is healthy for the meta". Anyway, the issue I have with dragalge is not only the raw power it now brings courtesy of adaptability, but the numerous switch ins it has and the over centralization it brings (seeing bronzong, registeel, or some other bulky as steel that kills mad momentum for your team and lacks reliable recovery and is easily worn down as a result isn't the most desirable imo). Sure it's slow, but it's unique typing and solid bulk tends to help it both defensively and offensively. It is also rather easily splashable and really doesn't require much support to be effective. Hell, I typically saw it with pangoro, who came in for free on these bulky steels like zong and no one really wants to switch in on a pangoro for example. Nevertheless I respect your decision, just didn't find your reasoning persuasive is all.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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Just got reqs on uunubnub.

Serperior:
Absolutely ban. 113 base speed makes a 130 atk power nasty plot entirely unreasonable. Not only that, but LO and leftovers are both completely viable in RU. 75 SpA may not seem like much, but 75 x 1.3 = 97.5 which is respectable for a 130 base attack STAB move, but honestly, any decent player is bringing serp in on something it forces out, so you're more looking at 195 SpA by the time you get your "counter" in, which consists of only Bronzong, Registeel, and Golbat in the tier. The next kicker is LO (the more viable set) generally runs glare. An easy prediction cripples the "counters" and makes them delicious fodder for your hitmonlee, emboar, etc. I could post calcs, but I wouldn't even know what to post as serp creates problems for most of the tier. Bottom line, ban.

Mega Pidgeot:
While it's relatively squishy and not fast the turn it comes in, once mega'd, pidgeot is somewhat of an issue. As has been previously stated multiple times in this thread, it's not necessarily the power (though 130 base SpA 110 base power is scary), the 30% chance of confusion on teams' special walls can essentially be an auto-win once the opposing scarfer has been eliminated. Actually, common scarfers like braviary and now reckless emboar can't even catch up to mega bird's speed. Though it can't take many hits, reliable recovery on a predicted switch in the form of roost should also get honorable mention. It's close on this one, since it doesn't ohko nearly as easily as serp, but I'm going to have to go with ban.

252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 396-468 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 280-330 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bronzong: 152-180 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Dragalge:
I'm pretty torn on this one. While 97 SpA (modest specs is the only set) with Adaptability is very scary, specs is really the only viable set. It can Ohko more than half the tier, but 44 base speed is laughable, ground is a horrible weakness to carry, and adaptability just reverses the resist from extremely common steel types. I could go into more offsetting reasons why this should and should not be banned, but I don't think I've used or faced this enough to offer an educated opinion. I abstain.

User: uunubnub
FormatEloGXEGlicko-1COILWLT
uu1584811770 ± 31--129610
ru1399781741 ± 66--32100
rususpecttest1366721680 ± 42240151240
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Hey Nubs first off welcome to smogon!

If you wish to vote you will need to post a screen shot that has a picture of your reqs in this thread found [thread=ru-stage-6-alt-identification-thread.3527852/]here[/thread], the screenshot needs to include the reqs and the top right corner that shows that you are logged into the account in question. Voting thread should be up in the next couple of days so be on the look out for that.
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Got reqs after procrastinating a bunch

Ok before I start to rant about Serperior I need to prove how fucking broken Pidgeot is. I have no idea what I was thinking initially with "you can handle it easily." It is literally the most broken of the suspects because of its ridiculous Speed tier (and it's not like jolteon doesn't take 40% damage and sceptile can't ohko) and the fact that it literally does nothing but click Hurricane and immediately puts pressure on the opponent is just a bit annoying. After Stealth Rock, it OHKOes a decent portion of the tier. But the main set I'm concerned about is Work Up, which actually crushes all offensive teams at +1. It has barely any switchins, and the only way to reliably beat it after Work Up is using jolteon or priority.

Here is a replay:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-204818000

Basically what happened was I got one Work Up on and he couldn't finish me off with priority (granted i did predict correctly with the sucker punch) and obviously he was either going to get completely swept by me or cornered into clicking the 'x'. He had run out of Pidgeot checks because of the confusion hax with Audino, and it sorta goes to show how the Speed tier is a problem.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAN

Serperior is nothing less of broken. I don't have replays, but literally after ONE Leaf Storm, everything - including shit like Pidgeot after Stealth Rock - is put at risk of an OHKO with the combination of Dragon Pulse / HP Fire. The other things faster than it - such as Jolteon and Sceptile - can't even OHKO it, and are OHKOed after a Leaf Storm. There isn't anything else to say, BAAAAAAAAAAAAN
 

Killua kun

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I was forgot to this thread, then I explain my opinion. After the suspect testing I realized how dragalge
was one of the most difficult pokemon to counter because apart from having a perfect coverage scald/hpump, dmeteor/dpulse, focusblast/hpfire, sludgebomb/wave, it has only the most reliable check is essentially bronzong but dragalge can be played in core with pangoro that entering its resistor makes a kill a round, I found many wants to meet them and I must say that I am really strong. However I doubt that alone make his damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 168-198 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 160-190 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


I would be very willing to ban because it isn't counter that will switch-in safe.

Serperior
also very good Pokémon, has a speed of 113 base which is quite high in tier ru, can switch only pokemon with a strength and are faster than it.. like pidgeot megaevolved or revengekiller as reckless emboar, or pretty defensive pokemon as golbat, amoongus or avdragalge. For the rest I do not doubt that it is from ban, manages to win 1vs1 against specially defensive bronzong or registeel

1st hit
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 62-74 (18.3 - 21.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
2nd
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 153-182 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

1st
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 113-133 (36.2 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
2nd
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 278-328 (89.1 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

1st
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 52-62 (14.2 - 17%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
2nd
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 130-153 (35.7 - 42%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

1st
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 40-47 (12.4 - 14.6%) -- possible 7HKO
2nd
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 281-333 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO


As you can see He is a really unsoppalbe threath

Mega pidgeot
is a very interesting mega form, with base speed 121 and the no guard trait, manages to do a lot of damage with his hurricane from basic attack 135, however has many resistor the most common are the electric types such as AVEelectross, lanturn because thanks to heatwave does not allow good to stop registeel or bronzong. The thing that makes it versatile enough, however, is access to u-turn that allows the switch on his counter which makes a great partner for volturn.
Hurricane also as scald, has 30% of confuse the opponent. In the suspect testing I've used lanturn to stop him, but many times forced me to switch hurricane because of confusion. I don't doubt that strong, however electric pokemon or pokemon as rhyperior have fun the before him, putting rocks or just into volt switch.
i think isn't to ban
 

Crestfall

levitate, levitate, levitate, levitate
Almost nearly finished reqs, sitting at 2300 so I figured I'd post my thoughts here after experiencing a decent amount of RU.

Serperior - Ban.
The main issue with serp isn't even that it breaks through it's own checks/counters due to contrary. It's that it gets to do this WHILE attacking. Oh and if it drops giga drain (which imo almost every difficult to deal with serp has done), it gets to add Glare or Leech Seed or even sub. While it's speed tier makes it so that it generally doesn't need paralyze enemy mons, it does help your team pick that mon off later. Which brings me to the last issue with Serp, it's blazing fast speed. It runs through nearly everything, including pre-mega pidgeot (this scenario is incredibly frustrating). Although priority isn't super common in RU, if it's a sub variant and you try to sucker punch obviously, you put yourself in a bad situation as it is. In the end you need an unburdened Hitmonlee, a VERY healthy twave Regi (it lives leaf storm + hp fire after rocks iirc), scarfer (moltres pls), or a mega pidgeot to take it out. The worst part is, you don't even need to save serp for a late game sweep. Bring it in early and watch it wreak havoc which opens your team up for a second sweeper. I'm probably only 40% against enemy serps, but in the cases I won, it was poorly used. In proper hands it's too strong, ban please.
tl;dr - it gets to nasty plot AS it does damage, outspeeds so much of the tier, and it's fourth move slot is quite tricky to deal with.

---

Mega Pidgeot - Ban.
I was actually no-ban during my initial RU play, but further games changed my opinion. I still maintain that despite roost or carrying defoggers, rocks really fuck with mega pidgeot. If it isn't at 100% there's not a lot of hits it can take (dies to many neutral stabs all over the tier). I'd actually still say it's not that strong of a mon (compared to the other suspects imo), but the Work Up set really wreaks havoc. Most of the common things that can take a hurricane and scare it off (which isn't a big list mind you) are suddenly liabilities as they switch in. Mono-attacking work up is quite the fierce set. With a fourth move refresh/sub to combat status (regi is now set up bait). It runs through everything barring Bronzong/Rhyperior and faster mons (jolteon still takes 36-40s iirc from neutral hurricanes which on top of rocks makes it a short time check, and moltres nor CS durant can risk coming in). I ran into an interesting Refresh/Roost/WU/Hurricane set with SpD investment which actually 6-0d my team. Furthermore the speed tier of mega bird is insane, with very few things to outspeed (read: the same list as serperior really). It outspeeds sceptile pre-mega as well which is a nice bonus. Obviously many steels get donked by Heat Wave sets. The last problem with this mon in the tier is u-turn. It's access to this pivot move means "let me just switch in Rhyperior and laugh" becomes "do I risk sacrificing momentum and making my counter a liability?" Bronzong is in the same boat (heat proof sets can we worn down like this until pidgeot can kill with a hurricane + heatwave or double heatwave on the next switch in. However unlike many people claiming "Hurricane Hax" as a reason to ban I'd like to state that's it's a poor reason to me. Confuse is only 30% and then hitting oneself is another 50%. If pidgeot happens to be the lastmon for one player it may be forced to hope for this. However using common sense we can see it's only a 15% chance for the enemy to lose a turn. And given that pidge can't take hits or status well at all, that's a reasonable 85% chance for them to do what they want. Regardless I'm pro-ban.
tl;dr - insanely fast, never-miss hurricane is a monstrous stab threatening a large part of the tier, heat wave coverage with uturn scouting makes it even better, and WorkUp mono attacker puts in work and destroys many counters/checks.

E: still on the fence about dragalge, I find specs set quite underwhelming as good reads let you turn it into set up bait or a free status/hazard/recovery for the enemy. however leftovers and even life orb sets are a bit more difficult but may not be enough to bebroken.

E2:

Dragalge - No Ban
So after thinking it over heavily I've realized if both Serp and MegaBird are banned this really isn't so ridiculous. A common reason why teams such as "Double Bird" worked in OU was because people would for example run Rotom-W as their check for strong flying stab. But when you have 2 people wearing you down it no longer is a counter. The same applies here for RU imo. Bronzong/Rhyperior(loses to Serperior anyways)/Registeel are all solid enough checks (along with Aromatisse) for this mon. But if Dragalge was accompanied with a Serp/Bird then these walls could only last for so long; especially if pidgeot was pivoting all over them.
The only Drag set I'd find to be "omg 2stronk4me" would be life orb UNDER trick room which I faced twice. However that involves running troom which is generally telegraphed and requires a lot of team support as it is. So perhaps Drag would be strong there but the team would be making sacrifices as it is so it's quite alright with me. Now I'm not saying Drag doesn't hit like a truck, it does, but it's slow, and even with bulk it can be worn down. Toxic spikes on the other hand are cool and Drag is probably the best user (unless taunt coba is in on you which it generally doesn't want to be due to Focus Blast) of them; can reliably set them multiple times a match.
tl;dr - drag is strong, but can be read well by a good player to switch into things that don't mind, with Bird/Serp assumed to be gone it's easier to wall it, toxic spikes is awesome but not ban level.
 
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I don't really see why anybody thinks that even one of these suspects are not broken. Most non ban arguments I see are that "it can't 6-0 teams by itself so its not broken", but like Sweep said earlier, its mostly due to overpreparation. The purpose of suspect testing is to create the best possible metagame, and having to run 2 checks for each of these mons on every team (especially when checks are limited to pretty much 2-3 mons lol) is definitely contributing to an unhealthy meta. As for individual mons:

Yes, Dragalge does have trouble against teams with a Steel/Fairy core, but prediction is a poor argument to apply in general. If you think about it, even if your opponent packs a mon immune to one of its STABs, control is ultimately in the hands of the Dragalge user. You can try and switch Aromatisse into Dragalge, but you'll shit your pants in anticipation, hoping it doesn't click Sludge Bomb or is not choiced (which I personally think is good as, if not better, than specs). It's true that it is worn down easily, but this does not downplay the fact that you are literally forced to run Bronzong to not get destroyed if it gets a free switch-in, which is not hard when paired with pivots or simple prediction. Also, I don't really see how it's easily revenge killed either, since it can survive a handful of powerful attacks and its Draco can KO a lot of offensive mons even at -2.

Pidgeot is plain broken, because you can pack tons of checks to it, and still have it do a lot of damage to your team. I personally think the Work Up set is the best set, because it destroys common defensive counters, AND still has an almost equally as effective matchup against offense. You really are only clicking Hurricane or U-Turn most of the time anyway, and stuff you want to U-Turn on (pretty much Rhyperior , Jolteon, and Eel, and some less common counters), can be seen coming in from 10203 miles away. This is mostly because they are pretty much the only switch-ins offense has. So yeah, ability to beat offense with almost equal ability as regular set + ability to beat defensive counters is really good. For why its broken , it is severely limited in checks, can U-Turn off of them for momentum, including into Dugtrio, can beat a lot of them through hax alone, and can outlast most of them through Roost. It doesn't have such a centralizing impact that the other two have in terms of usage, but the difference is that it can easily beat/take advantage of its checks.

Empirically, Serperior would seem to be the least broken out of the three, when Golbat, Mega Pidgeot, Moltres, and Amoonguss are all over the ladder. However, this is clearly the case of overpreparation. This was pretty much covered in earlier posts, so I don't have much too add. I would like to say that Serperior can cripple all of them with an appropriate move (Knock Off/Glare), and that its weak initial base 75 SpA literally means nothing when it can set up while threatening to KO something. (Also, Leaf Storm with base 75 is equivalent in power to a Giga Drain off of a base 165)

Ban all imo
 
I don't really see why anybody thinks that even one of these suspects are not broken. Most non ban arguments I see are that "it can't 6-0 teams by itself so its not broken", but like Sweep said earlier, its mostly due to overpreparation. The purpose of suspect testing is to create the best possible metagame, and having to run 2 checks for each of these mons on every team (especially when checks are limited to pretty much 2-3 mons lol) is definitely contributing to an unhealthy meta. As for individual mons:

Yes, Dragalge does have trouble against teams with a Steel/Fairy core, but prediction is a poor argument to apply in general. If you think about it, even if your opponent packs a mon immune to one of its STABs, control is ultimately in the hands of the Dragalge user. You can try and switch Aromatisse into Dragalge, but you'll shit your pants in anticipation, hoping it doesn't click Sludge Bomb or is not choiced (which I personally think is good as, if not better, than specs). It's true that it is worn down easily, but this does not downplay the fact that you are literally forced to run Bronzong to not get destroyed if it gets a free switch-in, which is not hard when paired with pivots or simple prediction. Also, I don't really see how it's easily revenge killed either, since it can survive a handful of powerful attacks and its Draco can KO a lot of offensive mons even at -2.

Pidgeot is plain broken, because you can pack tons of checks to it, and still have it do a lot of damage to your team. I personally think the Work Up set is the best set, because it destroys common defensive counters, AND still has an almost equally as effective matchup against offense. You really are only clicking Hurricane or U-Turn most of the time anyway, and stuff you want to U-Turn on (pretty much Rhyperior , Jolteon, and Eel, and some less common counters), can be seen coming in from 10203 miles away. This is mostly because they are pretty much the only switch-ins offense has. So yeah, ability to beat offense with almost equal ability as regular set + ability to beat defensive counters is really good. For why its broken , it is severely limited in checks, can U-Turn off of them for momentum, including into Dugtrio, can beat a lot of them through hax alone, and can outlast most of them through Roost. It doesn't have such a centralizing impact that the other two have in terms of usage, but the difference is that it can easily beat/take advantage of its checks.

Empirically, Serperior would seem to be the least broken out of the three, when Golbat, Mega Pidgeot, Moltres, and Amoonguss are all over the ladder. However, this is clearly the case of overpreparation. This was pretty much covered in earlier posts, so I don't have much too add. I would like to say that Serperior can cripple all of them with an appropriate move (Knock Off/Glare), and that its weak initial base 75 SpA literally means nothing when it can set up while threatening to KO something. (Also, Leaf Storm with base 75 is equivalent in power to a Giga Drain off of a base 165)

Ban all imo
I especially agree with you on mega pidgeot. It isn't even so much the overcentralization or even the fact that it has the ability to beat its checks/counters (confusion hax/ hurricane still hits reasonably hard) but the crazy momentum it brings to any offensive team it's on. M-Pidgeot is arguably the best u-turner in the tier as it forces things out like crazy or can even take advantage of the switches and work up to where balance and hell even offense (as M-Pidgeot sits at an excellent speed tier and threatens a lot in offense as well) struggles with. I also thought M-Pidgeot was manageable before suspect testing, but now I am not so sure anymore
 
Alright, time to jump on the bandwagon. No more lurking for me. I do apologize if I'm not as thorough or knowledgeable as others, or offend you with my (unintentional) ignorance. I haven't been lurking for that long. I'm also most likely reiterating lots of arguments, but hey, that's why people are saying them in the first place. I'm sorry I haven't added any replays, I wasn't planning on participating in this discussion until now so I don't have them saved.

Unfortunately, I haven't played RU... ever (usually I play OU) so I can't offer much insight into that, I will, however, share my exploits with serperior in OU.
Naturally, when nintendo came out with contrary serp, I was stoked (favourite pokemon :D). I immediately made a new team and added it.
Let me tell you, this pokemon is absurd. I personally run it with choice specs and a timid nature, though I can see the advantages of having a life orb. Serperior can outspeed nearly everything but choice scarf users, and can easily OHKO common OU pokemon that resist it, such as magnezone or scizor with a x2 or x3 SpA and specs. Another problem is that it's so easy to use. Some strategies require things to be just right or for accurate predictions or even luck. With serp, all you have to do is spam leaf storm and watch the world burn. (Though it does have a 10% chance of missing, and that percent has cost me the game numerous times). It doesn't matter what happens, if someone has enough time to set up some nasty plots, then it can OHKO a lot of stuff. With the SpA bonus provided by specs or life orb, it can take a large chunk out of a rather large portion of pokemon. I will also say again, all of my experience with serp is from OU. It easily holds its own, and is quite decent in that tier if used right.

tl;dr, I love serperior, but in RU, it's effectively broken. Bring down the BANhammer.
 

Jaiho

bandy legged troll
Here's my opinion on the suspects

Dragalgae: really dumb, plain and simple. It is highly centralizing, with only a few checks like bronzong and escavalier, both of which are easily overwhelmed by constant pressure. It has decently high SpAtk, High base power moves, a solid typing, and of course one of the most ridiculous abilities in all of Pokemon. These coupled together make dragalgae an unhealthy prescence in the tier, and wholly deserving of a BAN

Serperior: 130 BP nasty plot is actually insane. It can come in free on things like alomomola and gligar and freely begin tearing through teams, with its all of a sudden incredible power and blazing speed. Most everything that could check serp's grass moves are hit hard by dpulse or hp fire. Its checks are limited to like, spdef golbat, bronzong (who is extremely easily pressured), and sap sipper. Overall, serp is very broekn, and very deserving of a BAN

Pidgeotite: All hail the destroyer of HO. With insane speed and power, pidgeot make fully offensive teams almost unviable, with only a select few mons capable of outspeeding it. The pressure it puts on opposing bronzong, registeel and rhyperior mean that often times, these mons fail to check many of the other threats they are meant to handle. Hurricane is insane with no drawbacks, and with the added chance to confuse their way past checks, M-Pidgeot most definitely needs a BAN
 
Alright, time to jump on the bandwagon. No more lurking for me. I do apologize if I'm not as thorough or knowledgeable as others, or offend you with my (unintentional) ignorance. I haven't been lurking for that long. I'm also most likely reiterating lots of arguments, but hey, that's why people are saying them in the first place. I'm sorry I haven't added any replays, I wasn't planning on participating in this discussion until now so I don't have them saved.

Unfortunately, I haven't played RU... ever (usually I play OU) so I can't offer much insight into that, I will, however, share my exploits with serperior in OU.
Naturally, when nintendo came out with contrary serp, I was stoked (favourite pokemon :D). I immediately made a new team and added it.
Let me tell you, this pokemon is absurd. I personally run it with choice specs and a timid nature, though I can see the advantages of having a life orb. Serperior can outspeed nearly everything but choice scarf users, and can easily OHKO common OU pokemon that resist it, such as magnezone or scizor with a x2 or x3 SpA and specs. Another problem is that it's so easy to use. Some strategies require things to be just right or for accurate predictions or even luck. With serp, all you have to do is spam leaf storm and watch the world burn. (Though it does have a 10% chance of missing, and that percent has cost me the game numerous times). It doesn't matter what happens, if someone has enough time to set up some nasty plots, then it can OHKO a lot of stuff. With the SpA bonus provided by specs or life orb, it can take a large chunk out of a rather large portion of pokemon. I will also say again, all of my experience with serp is from OU. It easily holds its own, and is quite decent in that tier if used right.

tl;dr, I love serperior, but in RU, it's effectively broken. Bring down the BANhammer.
If you've only ever used serp in OU how do you know it's broken in a format you have never played?
Also if you've never played RU why do you care enough to make a post here?
 
I was thinking a bit about suspects, and I got to a point where I think everything is broken.

Dragalge and Serperior while not really effective against offensive teams (especially Serperior), they work very impressively against more defensive teams (sadly, people don't use Serperior properly, but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken). I include them in the same statement, because their roles are quite similar. While offensive teams can pressure Dragalge and Serperior with sheer power (especially considering that Serperior is frail), for stall teams this is quite difficult. Serperior cannot be Taunted like any set up sweeper, because it set ups using offensive move, quite powerful at that (120 BP, and boosts special attack by 2), while Adaptability boosted power of Dragalge is just huge without any set up moves. Those force usage of specific counters, like specially defensive Golbat. Ban them.

Mega Pidgeot is, I believe undesirable for the metagame. It's not really broken against balance and stall (it still works, mind you, but it's not as destructive), but against offensive teams, it's absolutely amazing. It causes battles between offensive teams to look like "who defeats opponent's Mega Pidgeot" first. Being forced to use a broken Pokemon to stand a chance against broken Pokemon is not exactly desirable. Mega Pidgeot also can escape using U-turn from its usual checks (unless Scarfed or Jolteon) considering how fast it is, weakening them a bit during that. As an icing on the cake, Mega Pidgeot can confuse the way through checks.

... wait, this thing has a second set that defeats stall? Uhm, yes, ban please.
 
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So i made reqs a while ago but never got around to posting here. What I have to say is basically a repeat of everything else, but ya know misewell.

Serperior: 130 bp stab nasty plot is pretty darn dumb. With its 113 base speed it outpaces most of the tier. Switching into it means you're likely going to end up taking another +2 leaf storm/dragon pulse/ hp fire from it. Although it has some checks in Pidgeot and scarf Emboar, I still don't think it's healthy for the meta game. Its counters on the other hand include only Golbat, Registeel ,which are worn down by leaf storms, hazards, and possible mega pidgeot/dragalge switchins. A couple other mons like the sap sippers(sap sipperers?) are pretty unviable, even forcing people to run AV Muk. Even then, those hipsters like to run the knock off/glare/ dual screens set, taking so many people off guard, including myself.There's pretty much nothing stopping me from voting Ban

Dragalge: This might be a bit biased because I used a Duggy during laddering, but I didn't think it was too threatening. Unlike Serperior, it doesn't have 113 base speed, but does literally nuke everything in the tier other than like Bronzong, and Registeel/Escavalier. Because it can wear these things down, (I believe Bronzong is like 3hko'd), get free switchins on defensive mons, and tank some hits because of its incredible special defense, I see why most people want it gone. As you can see I'm pretty on the fence about this one. Although my vote probably won't do much to keep it here, I'm not too sure if I'll be voting ban or no ban.

Pidgeot-mega: It's amazing speed and base 135 special attack is amazing, wiping out offensive teams in a snap, with only mons like scarf melo and Jolteon being able to take some hits and outspeed. It exerts so much pressure on its counters like Bronzong, Registeel (quite recurring) and Rhyperior, plus the fact it can easily click u-turn and catch some momentum. It's perfect accuracy stab base 120 move and great fire coverage isn't what puts it over the top, however. It's the damn confusion chance. It's ability to hax through its switch-ins its completely demoralizing. The Heat wave burns almost made me throw my comp across the room.You can be sure I'm voting Ban
 
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Aight I got reqs so I might as well post my thoughts here...

First, we got Mega Pidgeot
. Mega bird makes offense cry in despair as only a select few pokemon in the tier that are viable can handle with this on offense, making you run jolteon. And since work up bird became a thing, stall dosen't like mega pidgeot anymore. Steel checks like registeel and bronzong are easily worn down by heat wave with rocks(and other hazards), while rhyperior dosen't like taking ~27% and hazards. Also, hp grass is a thing, so if a team is rhyperior weak, bird can just run hp grass and catch rhyperior on the switch in and 2hit KO. Mega Pidgeot forces every team to now have a check like heatproof zong or lanturn. Ban

Now we have Dragalge
. Adaptability was a gift from heaven, making dragalge have no switch in on offense and completely breaking down stall. Now even steel types have limited switchins with hazards, because dragalge does ~40 to bronzong and ~30 to registeel, giving about 2-3 safe switchins for them. And, while the most common item on dragalge is specs, I feel like Draco Plate is effective because your able to bluff the specs while still being able to smack offense and defense, and if they think you used dragon pulse so theyre safe to go into a fairy, you go for sludge bomb/wave. However, dragalge also have a great defensive typing, being able to pivot into many types and fire off a draco, unlike the other 2 suspects with not as great typings. Good offensive stab & offensive pressure + good defensive typing is a ban from me.

Finally, we got Serperior
. I feel like this thing has a fair amount of checks in the tier, and is exaggerated a bit, but with mega pidgeot possibly going, thats one less thing for serperior to worry about. Having 130BP and stab while raising spattack to +2 seems pretty good, atleast to patch up its base 75 attack stat. Serperior lacks initial offensive presence, but once you get it in at the right time, it slaps teams. The sub set laughs at stall, and stab leaf storm and hazards really wear down teams. Of course, you also only have 8 leaf storms, making you either having to conserve it or have giga drain. Its checks get worn down by stealth rocks easily, moltres and fletchinder taking half, and other flying, fire, bug, or ice types taking a quarter health, all plus serperior's attack. I am on the fence with this, but im going with ban.
 

Pidge

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Originally I thought Serperior wasn't that ban-worthy because it can only come in after one of your own Pokemon faint or through a slow U-turn, since you don't usually want Serperior to take a hit. Furthermore, as a revenge killer, it may not even may able to threaten the opposing Pokemon immediately since it does not have a boost yet and the fragile Serperior is prone to being KOd at 78%, assuming Stealth Rock and Serperior hurts itself from Life Orb once. Therefore, having a counter shouldn't be too important. However, after looking through the top Pokemon in viability rankings and running some damage calculations, few RU Pokemon can deal 78% to Serperior before being OHKOd or 2HKOd.

Calculations are done using 252 Sp Atk EVs, Timid, Life Orb, and considering Leaf Storm, HP Fire, HP Rock, and Dragon Pulse. I know it can't have both Hidden Powers, but you can't tell which it will have in a battle immediately. Numbers in parenthesis are how much Serperior does, unless otherwise stated. I went to B rank Pokemon (didn't do B-) and ignored Dragalge and Pidgeot.

Assuming SR, Serperior can revenge KO these Pokemon before itself being KOd from 78%: Cresselia, Moltres (nonScarf), Alomomola, Gligar, Meloetta, Aromatisse, Cobalion, Mega-Glalie (Ice Shard does 50-58), Rhyperior, Slowking, Doublade (Serperior can die from LO recoil, depending on damage roll of Iron Head and Shadow Sneak), Durant, Reuniclus, Slurpuff, Spiritomb (high Atk Sucker Punch problematic), Kabutops, Mespirit, Omastar, Tyrantrum, Whimsicott, Granbull, Gurdurr, Heliolisk, Hitmontop, Lanturn, Qwilfish, Rotom-Mow, Mega-Steelix, Virizion.

And if Serperior does force a switch, its counters or lack of counters has been discussed enough. If it is left with low HP after KOing one of these Pokemon, the opposing next Pokemon will likely take much damage, unless the opposing Pokemon is faster or has priority.

Assuming SR, Serperior can KO these Pokemon after they have come in twice: Mega-Abomasnow (Ice Shard does 52-63%)(61-72), Hitmonlee (assume takes LO damage once at least) (73-87.5), Escavalier (72-85), Sawk (83.5-99)

Assuming SR, Serperior can KO these Pokemon after they have come in thrice: Pangoro (67-80), Emboar (nonScarf) (42-50), Exploud (71-84), Houndoom (39-46), Braviary (35-42)

Serperior can't KO these Pokemon unless they are significantly low: Amoongus, Braviary (nonScarf, bulky Sub), Bronzong, Mega-Camerupt (54-63), Eelektross (41-49), Golbat, Magneton, Registeel, Shiftry, Skuntank, Togetic

Drapion and Druddigon probably belong here, but there are too many different sets to consider.

Serperior is outsped and KOd: Moltres (Scarf), Mega-Sceptile, Emboar (Scarf), Fletchinder, Accelgor, Jolteon, Braviary (Scarf)... Dugtrio outspeeds, but doesn't KO unless Aerial Ace is used while Serperior is 36-50% (depends on LO or CB Dugtrio).

These lists aren't exhaustive, but I feel I can conclude Serperior has too many easy opportunities to sweep, force switches into the few counters it has, or cause major damage, despite its frailty.
 
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Dragagle is probably not that broken, but it should get a ban anyway. It's way too strong, and even though things like Bronzong can counter it, it's coverage can counter anything that comes it's way. Adaptablity just makes it OP. It's too much. Ban

Mega Pidgeot is probably the second best mega in RU to Mega Sceptile (which it ultimately counters), and with it's great speed and special attack, plus the No Guard ability, it's truly a force to be reckoned with. However, it can be easily countered by Jolteon and lacks Normal stab without Hyper Beam, which requires recharge turn. Other counters include specially defensive Doublade, defensive Dragagle, and Magneton and Gligar, and even Omastar. They can handle Mega Pidgeot's special attacks. I really don't know about this thing.

Serperior
is really good with Contrary's release, and lots of people think that it should rise to UU. I do too. It's speed and easy boosting easily allow it to sweep unprepared teams, and HP Fire or Rock allows it to check it's best counters (Amoonguss and Mega Pidgeot). And Life Orb/Sash allows it to deal extremely good hits. Ban
 
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