Metagame NP: RU Stage 7: Oblivion [Zoroark Banned]

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phantom

is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
RU Co-Leader
#1


Zoroark Suspect
With near unanimous council support, Zoroark has been deemed to deserve a suspect test. As always, if you'd like to see some in-depth reasoning as to why this Pokemon is being suspected, there is a paragraph written below about why Zoroark in particular was chosen. The suspect test will last 10 days, and the deadline will be 11:59 PM EST on the 7th of November, assuming the ladder is up the next day.

The requirements will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0, but you will need to finish within 62 games. I will know if you reset your win loss, given its determined by GXE. Do not attempt to game the system, you will be infracted if I catch you, and I will. A GXE of 77.5 is the required minimum.

To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE and put it into this formula:

=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)

Zoroark's stellar offenses and access to Illusion allow it to function as the perfect lure. Its ability to disguise itself as other Pokemon and take out their counters makes it one of the most dangerous threats in the tier. Zoroark is also an excellent Pokemon on its own, with its Swords Dance set in particular having the potential to clean-sweep opposing teams. Its ability to go physical, special, and employ a variety of choice sets makes it difficult to counter even if Illusion is broken. In essence, the guessing games that ensue with Illusion shenanigans combined with Zoroark's already incredible offenses and versatility make it suspect worthy.

NP Song:


Tagging The Immortal for a suspect ladder. This suspect ladder will include Zoroark in it. Thanks in advance :toast:

Keep in mind that this thread is to remain a discussion thread. Avoid one liners and shit posts.
 
#2
it's definitely about time zoro got banned from RU, it's criminally underused and is just crazy good at what it does, and takes luring to a whole new level that is just really hard to prepare for because of all its options, i've experimented and had some form of success with all kinds of zoros, from SD life orb, to SD Z fighting/ flying, to nasty plot, spex, scarf, and it was very easy to catch would-be counters to several threats in the tiers by just playing the zoro correctly and not revealing it by being careless with the item reveal (disguised as a fat mon for example that would run lefties but it not having it), or hazards. It's just really easy to pair it with something that has trouble getting past a selection of mons, and its wide movepool lets it be disguised as several kinds, here are some examples:
-SD zoro disguised as other SD pokemon like virizion/gatr to catch psychic types and ghosts fat waters/p2
-NP zoro disguised as other NP pokemon like salazzle to take out things like snorlax and cresselia
-band/spex hitting/crippling would be counters really really hard, i.e zoro as nidoqueen/other grounds to take out bronzong/ground immunes, as psychics or fairies or grasses to take out steels, as a hazard setter to take out xatu
- scarf that can revenge kill set up mons with foul play (although im not the biggest fan of the scarf set)
- Z moves can make it even better at getting key kills, like Z fight to take out umbreon regi snorlax after a boost, bounce which i tried in snake to get rid of any fighting
It just puts so much strain on the opponent to not only have to make sure that he's battling the right pokemon, but also to keep in mind that almost any pokemon can be it, while knowing that it's supposed to lure the counter.

Yes, it can be revealed if the item is revealed and hazards etc, but it's not that hard to get around that honestly, there are many options for zoroark to be disguised as something that does not get revealed with hazards (like cresselia/gligar if spikes arent up, fighting types if rocks arent up, and the zoro user gets to decide from preview what it looks like that zoro will disguise itself better as, and what his team needs to take out more urgently on a case by case basis every battle. It can also be used early if the hazards are such an issue, or simply disguised as something that takes normal hazard damage like milotic, snorlax (a common zoro disguise cuz of ghosts and fightings being lured)
here are a couple of replays that had key zoro success:
here, zoro was just being zoro, needed 1 turn vs an unprepared team, just through sheer power
here, zoro lures chesnaught to pave the way for ches weak mons
in this one, zoro was revealed but it's such a good mon even without its ability that it cleans quite easily with its powerful priority
turn 4, a smart double catches cress with zoro disguised as zygarde
lead zoro doing a ton of damage turn 1 by not only bluffing scarf on tyrant, but also catch gligar, so it's already several levels of mind games that the zoro-facer has to go through
these replays are not to simply showcase how illusion works, but it's to show how difficult it is and how varied zoro can be, not only as the options of disguise, but also the sets and items, which can be rly difficult to handle, because it gets all the right tools to eliminate whatever it wants if u need it eliminated, flamethrower, sludge bomb if fairies get more popular, grass knot, focusblast, low kick, and ofc the stab incredible utility move with great damage output knock off, as well as a strong priority stab in sucker, 2 ways of setting up it's above average offensive stats, and an immunity to compliment other mons weak to that immunity (dark disguised as poison or fight to bait the psychic move etc), additional utility in pursuit, and random coverage moves to make z work or without it like bounce, extrasensory, memento for utility, etc

tl;dr: zoro needs to get banned
 

teachable

www.readsettlers.org
is a Pre-Contributor
#3
Something to start off discussion :).

Variety of good/viable sets (SD/Specs/Memento/Scarf) added in with the fact that you can't always perfectly scout vs it since you're regularly placed into situations such as "Okay, what if this is XYZ mon or A variant of Zoroark or B Variant of Zoroark or C Variant of Zoroark" really make Zoroark a pain to deal with. Obviously you can kinda tell some of this with team composition. Seeing a Durant, you can probably assume it'll be Specs/Special Zoroark or something of that nature to lure Durant checks. With Linoone you're definitely gonna see the Memento set, Salazzle will probably be ran alongside a Nasty Plot set etc so it definitely adds a really unique factor in analyzing the team structure which I think is actually kind of cool. the fact that Zoroark still places you into a guessing game kinda sucks though, sometimes favoring the Zoroark player a LOT momentum wise; I'm not sure if that's ban worthy by itself though.

I'd probably lean towards ban just given that its also a pretty damn good mon, particularly its SD set. It's Speed tier in our meta, where most mons are sitting at Base 95/100 or are way slower than that, is really damn good. On offense, there's not a *whole* lot that is both faster than Zoroark, can tank a +2 Sucker Punch, AND kill it. Off the top of my head, I can name Zygarde-10%, Sneasel, Virizion, and something like Scarf Shaymin. Against bulkier teams its still hard to prep for it, as we aren't in possession of a ton of Dark-type resists that can check all of Zoroark's sets (Virizion is the only one I can think of); Chesnaught dies to Specs Flamethrower, Umbreon dies to any physical variant, Toxicroak can get caught by Extrasensory).

Less of what makes it suspect worthy, but probably still worth mentioning, is that it actually has a pretty cool movepool with lots of (inferior) boosting moves to disguise itself as other Pokemon. Hone Claws lets you disguise yourself as Durant better, Calm Mind lets you lure in a Meloetta or Espeon check or something of the like, although you'd typically be better just running one of its Nasty Plot/Swords Dance sets these are pretty cool additions to Zoroark's movepool that are worth keeping in mind.
 
#4
Even though the number of mons it can disguise itself into is limited because of abilities and hazards, the pokemon itself is really strong. Being able to pressure stall and bulky teams with its band/specs/NP sets while also breaking through offense with its SD LO set is kinda huge and even if the MU doesn't allow it to sweep, it can just lure walls in order to open up a door for its teammates. Furthermore, sometimes there's some stupid situations where there's no way to know if it is Zoroark or not, like turn 1 for exemple. We should also consider the fact that it can act as a decent revenge killer thanks to Illusion + Sucker Punch.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
#5
Normally, having great offensive stats and a powerful offensive pool, as well as being a catalyst for nearly every offensive Pokemon in the tier does not necessarily warrant grounds for a ban. The fundamental problem here is that Zoroark itself happens to be a top tier powerhouse; even in the event that the opponent manages to see through the Disguise, it's not like they have neutralized the threat itself. One not only has to carefully consider both the possibility of facing Zoroark or one of its many effective disguises in the tier, but they have to play an additional guessing game as to what set it is running out of the many that can punch irreparable holes in their team if not outright sweep through it. Perhaps the worst part about Zoroark is that not only is it an incredibly strong threat that requires minimal support, but it also excels marvelously at supporting its team in various ways, such as U-turn, Trick, Memento, offering potent priority in Sucker Punch, or just plain Disguising.

Zoroark's sheer amount of advantages is sickening to me; I haven't strongly advocated towards its ban prior to this, but I definitely would not mind seeing it banished.
 
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avocado

queen vados
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#6
it's definitely about time zoro got banned from RU, it's criminally underused and is just crazy good at what it does, and takes luring to a whole new level that is just really hard to prepare for because of all its options, i've experimented and had some form of success with all kinds of zoros, from SD life orb, to SD Z fighting/ flying, to nasty plot, spex, scarf, and it was very easy to catch would-be counters to several threats in the tiers by just playing the zoro correctly and not revealing it by being careless with the item reveal (disguised as a fat mon for example that would run lefties but it not having it), or hazards. It's just really easy to pair it with something that has trouble getting past a selection of mons, and its wide movepool lets it be disguised as several kinds, here are some examples:
-SD zoro disguised as other SD pokemon like virizion/gatr to catch psychic types and ghosts fat waters/p2
-NP zoro disguised as other NP pokemon like salazzle to take out things like snorlax and cresselia
-band/spex hitting/crippling would be counters really really hard, i.e zoro as nidoqueen/other grounds to take out bronzong/ground immunes, as psychics or fairies or grasses to take out steels, as a hazard setter to take out xatu
- scarf that can revenge kill set up mons with foul play (although im not the biggest fan of the scarf set)
- Z moves can make it even better at getting key kills, like Z fight to take out umbreon regi snorlax after a boost, bounce which i tried in snake to get rid of any fighting
It just puts so much strain on the opponent to not only have to make sure that he's battling the right pokemon, but also to keep in mind that almost any pokemon can be it, while knowing that it's supposed to lure the counter.

Yes, it can be revealed if the item is revealed and hazards etc, but it's not that hard to get around that honestly, there are many options for zoroark to be disguised as something that does not get revealed with hazards (like cresselia/gligar if spikes arent up, fighting types if rocks arent up, and the zoro user gets to decide from preview what it looks like that zoro will disguise itself better as, and what his team needs to take out more urgently on a case by case basis every battle. It can also be used early if the hazards are such an issue, or simply disguised as something that takes normal hazard damage like milotic, snorlax (a common zoro disguise cuz of ghosts and fightings being lured)
here are a couple of replays that had key zoro success:
here, zoro was just being zoro, needed 1 turn vs an unprepared team, just through sheer power
here, zoro lures chesnaught to pave the way for ches weak mons
in this one, zoro was revealed but it's such a good mon even without its ability that it cleans quite easily with its powerful priority
turn 4, a smart double catches cress with zoro disguised as zygarde
lead zoro doing a ton of damage turn 1 by not only bluffing scarf on tyrant, but also catch gligar, so it's already several levels of mind games that the zoro-facer has to go through
these replays are not to simply showcase how illusion works, but it's to show how difficult it is and how varied zoro can be, not only as the options of disguise, but also the sets and items, which can be rly difficult to handle, because it gets all the right tools to eliminate whatever it wants if u need it eliminated, flamethrower, sludge bomb if fairies get more popular, grass knot, focusblast, low kick, and ofc the stab incredible utility move with great damage output knock off, as well as a strong priority stab in sucker, 2 ways of setting up it's above average offensive stats, and an immunity to compliment other mons weak to that immunity (dark disguised as poison or fight to bait the psychic move etc), additional utility in pursuit, and random coverage moves to make z work or without it like bounce, extrasensory, memento for utility, etc

tl;dr: zoro needs to get banned
I wanna start this by saying that you have a lot of really solid points so well done on that front. I also wanna say, unlike a lot of other pokemon that can also be very versatile and run anything, Zoroark never felt like a Pokemon that has different checks or counters despite having different sets. They're all stopped by the same things and that doesn't change the more you mess around with the set for the most part. Things like Diancie and Florges are all-time counters unless it gets Florges on the switch with Sludge Bomb with specs, or unless its nasty plot poisonium, and those aren't exactly smart moves in their own right for reasons I don't think I need to explain. Zoroark in my eyes is just another threat that when if allowed to set up can be threatening but that's also true to Salazzle and Durant. Only twist to Zoroark is disguise which is often exaggerated by a lot of people imo. Is one turn REALLY enough? I don't think so, and it certainly wasn't in all of the replays you posted, but I'll get to that shortly. You listed the reasons where Disguise can be called out and how to avoid it and that's good, but that's a lot of stipulations. You have to make sure of the following:


1. clear out all hazards in a tier where hazards are prevalent and super extremely good

2. make sure the mon you're disguised as doesn't have an obvious tell ability or isn't a mega, so no abomasnow/glalie/etc, gigalith, gardevoir, zydog, porygon2, or pressure moltres

3. get it in safely without taking damage

4. if it's taken any sort of damage be it life orb or hazards once or sandstorm, status etc its blown

5. like you said, no walls that typically use leftovers or its a bit shady


those are a lot of stipulations that you have to keep in mind. on paper they can be avoided rather easily and you can pull off the most incredible ruse and actually lure and kill something, but in practice it's not like that often times in my experience and another lure mon can also achieve the same result.

Next I'd rather take a closer look at all the replays you posted so I'm gonna take a jab at all of them:

1. shake's team was exceptionally weak to dark and i legit believe an sd sneasel, if given also 1 turn, could've swept with a similar effect.

2. the zoro was revealed before you pulled off the z-bounce tech, so the chesnaught was already in risk of getting hit by something like flamethrower and the person accepted that risk and stayed in despite having a much better switch-in/counter in florges

3. i'm not sure why this replay is relevant at all. any pokemon in place of zoro would've done this with the same effect, and if anything this is a replay showing gatr is broken not zoro lol (not saying it is though, but the replay shows gatr's prowess moreso than zoro's)

4. it's the player's fault for not knowing the mechanics behind aura break and disguise

5. I'm also not sure why this replay is significant because the damage done to gligar was minimal and all it resulted in was gligar later taking 1 extra turn of toxic damage while vsing the other gligar, if he hadn't been chipped by dark pulse he wouldn't have had to roost off the damage
 
#7
1. shake's team was exceptionally weak to dark and i legit believe an sd sneasel, if given also 1 turn, could've swept with a similar effect.

2. the zoro was revealed before you pulled off the z-bounce tech, so the chesnaught was already in risk of getting hit by something like flamethrower and the person accepted that risk and stayed in despite having a much better switch-in/counter in florges

3. i'm not sure why this replay is relevant at all. any pokemon in place of zoro would've done this with the same effect, and if anything this is a replay showing gatr is broken not zoro lol (not saying it is though, but the replay shows gatr's prowess moreso than zoro's)

4. it's the player's fault for not knowing the mechanics behind aura break and disguise

5. I'm also not sure why this replay is significant because the damage done to gligar was minimal and all it resulted in was gligar later taking 1 extra turn of toxic damage while vsing the other gligar, if he hadn't been chipped by dark pulse he wouldn't have had to roost off the damage
1- back then sneasel wasnt even a thing in ru, shake prepared for the most spammed dark by having p2
2- the whole point of the tech is that zoro had to be revealed anyway, how else would zoro lure fighting types? non life orb isnt usually mixed, mixed itself is quite rare and the damage i revealed showed that i was fully evd in attack, and obviously fully evd in speed so a special attack was not likely. Also he went ches over florges because he saw it as an opportunity to set up spikes on a non boosted zoro that would at worse maybe have z fighting or be scarf
3- this one was more used to show that zoro is already good enough on its own and additionally i didnt mention how it messed up with his opponent's thinking since gatr managed to get rid of queen turn 1, but that's what expecting a lead zoro does to u, u just cant tell if it's lead zoro or laead gatr, and mael's team was too offensive to have switchins to both special zoro or z fight + gatr, it shows how a combination of zoro + another threateening mon is just too much because it also makes the 2nd mon tougher since people dont even know sometimes if that's the mon itself (see np salazz + np zoro vs something like cresselia)
4- no comment, ur right
5- i personally believe 49 didnt capitalize properly on the damage done to gligar, as he went to a mon that let it recover off that damage instead of pressuring it
 
#8
Zoroark, well where should we start with this unique threat at RU:
I think the amount of sets it can run is simply amazing + the ability to disguise itself as one of another good threat at RU. There are a bunch of things you can disguise your Zoroark into.
The Sets:

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb

Zoroark @ Focus Sash
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
- Sucker Punch

or even some agility variants

Zoroark @ Focus Sash
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Agility
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off
It can easily scare threats out which normally threaten zoroark when disguised as the right pkmn and it is able to put out some good dmg out

+2 252 Atk Zoroark Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 226-266 (59 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
into
+2 252 Atk Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 118-140 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Zoroark Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 232-274 (69.8 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 330-390 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

and fast enugh is it to get at least 1 setup most times


I think in summon what it can do is really good. I would vote Ban!
 
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#9
I just got reqs, so I figured I would share my thoughts on Zoroark.
zoroark.png

Zoroark is so broken lmao, please ban this thing. I don't think Zoroark is broken by itself, but it is definitely a huge threat, and when you pair up this Pokemon with Virizion or Salazzle or whatever other Pokemon you can think of that can benefit from a disguised Zoroark, it suddenly becomes quite overbearing to deal with. When you face Zoroark disguised as Virizion, it basically comes down to a 50/50; is it Zoroark, or is it Virizion? If you guess wrong, you either lose your Zoroark check or you lose your Virizion check. While I do think this is pretty insane, there is something else that I'm not sure other people have considered; the Zoroark player doesn't lose anything if the other player guesses right. Congrats, you figured out the ruse, but this doesn't mean you've put the Zoroark player in a bad spot. It just switches out and the game continues as normal. So, what does this mean? It means that when facing Zoroark, you have to play a guessing game to not lose a vital Pokemon and the Zoroark player rarely loses anything by doing it. Another thing to consider is that if the Zoroark player plays carefully, they can disguise it as a Pokemon more than once (I've had this happen to me numerous times while laddering). Playing this 50/50 mindgame more than once? That's just impossibly difficult to deal with. And even when you figure out that you're dealing with a Zoroark, that doesn't mean you've figured out its moveset and, despite popular belief, Zoroark doesn't always have the same answers. Kommo-o? Extrasensory. Bewear? Flamethrower. Umbreon? Focus Blast. Florges? Sludge Bomb. Zoroark has ways to break through pretty much all of its conventional answers and, when you take these qualities and pair it with another dangerous Pokemon, it is too overbearing to handle. Zoroark + Salazzle, for example, can completely dismantle any defensive backbone you could have with ease. This shit is insanely broken and needs to go asap.
 
#10
I believe Zoroark gives the user a consistent advantage over their opponent right from team preview and should be banned. I believe this is because of a combination of two things.

1) Zoroark is undeniably, even without its ability, one of the most dangerous Pokémon in this tier. People have already talked about how it can run a ton of sets: SD, NP, Choice with utility moves like Foul Play, Uturn, Trick, Pursuit on top of options like Knock Off or special with extrasensory, etc. The SD Set in particular is extremely dangerous and capable of paving a clear path to victory in just a turn, and is also flexible in it's own right with various Z-Moves. SD Zoro is extremely tough to answer offensively, and trying to take it on defensively can be very risky due to it's unpredictability. The only legitimate true counter I can think of is Z-Heal Bell Diancie, and even that could theoretically be lured by a Z-Dig set.

2) Disguise immediately puts the opponent on the mental backfoot from turn 0. Until a Pokémon takes an attack, it could be zoroark. Until a pokemon takes the wrong amount of hazard damage, it could be zoroark. For every Pokémon that can't disguise as zoroark because of abilities, 10 more can. Giving zoroark a free turn can put you behind for the whole game, but mistakenly assuming a pokemon is zoroark can have the same consequences. The advantages a player has from simply having zoroark on their team is immense, and in combination with point 1, I feel is too much to handle.
 
#12
Well Tyrantrum aside, Dugtrio outspeeds Salazzle so Salazzle would have to be forced to run Air Balloon to switch out or hold a Focus Sash, but it may just drop again LOL. Smeargle will be a decent hazard setter and Mega Steelix looks to be one of the best Megas in RU
 
#14
Duggy is generally outclassed by Zydog, though its higher Speed and MAYBE access to Memento make it an interesting option. Not a good one, though, as 100 attack unboosted can barely dent a lot of defensive mons.

Smeargle's main problem is how prevalent Chesnaught and Roserade have become, and that Dark Void is no more. Webs has sort of been a meh playstyle in general, and Smeargle can't beat Gligar and has to run Skill Swap to beat Xatu.

Mega Steelix is probably the one of the bunch that will make the most impact. I doubt it'll be nearly as borked as last gen, but it'll be an option over Registeel since Lix actually has some offensive presence. Also another reason to say LOL ELECTRICS IN RU.

And that's all I'll say on the matter. About Zoro, on the other hand, none of the drops affect it at all. And the vote will likely commence soon. Will be looking forward to that.
 
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