Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Beauty and the Boost - Pheromosa is now banned

[Sun King]

It certainly doesn't sound like removing mons from play entirely gives people the "freedom to use whichever sets ... [and] Pokémon they choose" it sounds like the exact opposite. It's certainly a move that game developers would consider lazy or at least suboptimal. It's a shame that GF doesn't bother to balance their own game appropriately, but the downside to a community run effort is that you get lost in your own hive-mind and implement balance changes based on your philosophy for said changes at times without regard for the larger impact of trying to stay consistent. Removing mons from tiers should be a last resort, it should not be your go to move. Again, it sounds to me that you have done this in previous generations and ended up with boring a metagame as a result.

By placing particular Pokemon in tiers that can handle any particular set, we allow players to have more choice overall. If what you want is to use anything, then play the Anything Goes tier. If you want a little more freedom than OU, but not the chaos that is AG, play Ubers. Ultimately, by creating multiple tiers, we don't have to trim Pokemon like bonsai trees in the manner you're proposing. If we had one enormous tier with everything in it, we wouldn't be able to use certain sets because the metagame would be dictated by whatever "objective balance" (something I find really ambiguous and impossible to agree with) we've established as the standard for acceptable.

Mewtwo with one attack. Is this a red herring I'm smelling? We both know that you can bring anything to it's logical conclusion and make it seem silly, but that doesn't mean that everything ends up at that logical conclusion. Slippery slopes are slippery but they're also weak arguments. Especially in this case.

No, my friend, this is not a slippery slope argument. Slippery slopes are inappropriate if and only if you cannot prove they will actually come about. "Mewtwo with one attack" is no stranger an example than "Pheromosa without Quiver Dance". If we adopted a philosophy that let us have "Phero minus QD", we would be forced to answer the question, "Why can't we have Mewtwo in our tier if we can have Pheromosa?" We would be forced to answer this question for EVERYTHING we've banned, which would ultimately rely on us having to agree on some objective measure of balance, which we likely never will.

And I think smogon is too ingrained in the idea that you should be able to prepare for everything. There are just too many mons running too many different sets for you to expect to be able to counter everything. If you're using two slots to counter all possible pheromosa sets, unless pheromosa is on every freaking team you're probably wasting resources. If QD/Z moves are a problem on this mon and they're too difficult to counter - address that. But countering AoA mosa or specs/scarf mosa is doable, you may not be able to counter both depending on your team composition, but that isn't necessarily the end of the world either. You can't expect to be able to build a perfect team.

Honestly, saying you shouldn't try to build a perfect team is perhaps the least competitive thing you can say. Smogon is a competitive community first, and a balanced one second. Our goal is to create the best teams possible to win as much as possible, and this competitive nature is what invisibly guides us as contributors. If we are better able to build a better team by removing certain aspects to a metagame, we are obligated to start such a discussion. Since we are democratic here, we are able to better capture as many individual proclivities as we can (or, by our measures, at least 60% of them).

EDIT: Responding to what you said above me.

And then if the mon is not viable in Uber's you..... say goodbye?

This is not something game devs would do. I'll tell you that. In fact, it's something that game devs try to avoid at all costs. Removing game content does not make a healthy game.

Game Freak doesn't actively balance the game like Blizzard does with WoW or Overwatch. We at Smogon do what we can to pick up the slack. It's important to note that Smogon's metagame is not the same as Nintendo's own. Nintendo has its own rules and you can play by theirs if you prefer them.

Again - if one simple thing can be done to bring a mon in line, you should consider it over banning a mon entirely. Answer me this: QD sets are the problem right? You aren't worried so much about AoA, to stick with that example, it hurts, but you can beat it... right? Why are you so insistent that banning QD mosa is an unviable balancing tactic? I understand that it circles back to your distaste for complex bans, again using examples that are not realistic (Ubers with 40bp attacks, cmon...) - but if you truly care about the health of the metagame you should be looking at options like this.

QD isn't a broken set. It's the fact that you cannot prepare for QD and AoA and Scarf and Specs and Band (and all the Z crystals) all at once. It's a huge hindrance to the development of the metagame if you're forced to run one two or three Pokemon on every team along with being forced to run specific subpar sets on other Pokemon.

 

[nameless90]

Don't forget that Pheromosa isn't meant to OHKO things for full HP.
Yes, after a Quiver Dance it can. Yes, after a Z-Move Pheromosa can do this thanks to the damage boost provided by the crystal.

But Pheromosa remains a late-game cleaner because at that point the opponent's team is so worn down that lacks proper counterplay (including faster Scarfers or priority users).

I'd like to underline that every priority user in OU is or bulky, but slow (i.e. Mega Scizor, Azumarill) or fast but frail (i.e. Weavile). Thios means that you have plenty of ways to deal with them even without using Tapu Lele on your team.

 

[Mame YO]

I understand the purpose of tiering mons and I don't have a problem with that practice in general. What I'm contesting is your affinity for simply tossing mons left and right until all the threats have been removed from the primary tier that is OU.

I also find it kind of amusing that part of your reluctance to adapt this type of complex ban (which, frankly is quite simple and easy to apply) is as much about protecting past precedence as it is trying to maintain a coherent balance philosophy. Would it be such a bad thing to review your past bans?

I still completely reject your mewtwo example. Mosa can run several ENTIRE, NORMAL sets without QD. I personally still run a few non-QD sets on a couple of my teams - this is not comparable in any way to your crappy mewtwo argument, or the other "Ubers with 40bp attacks" argument. Nobody is asking for any of that and if you don't believe in the strength of your community to weed out irrational arguments like those you should just give up.

Flagging QD mosa to ubers isn't hard nor would it be inappropriate but I think you're missing out if you remove the other competitive sets from OU.

 

[Sun King]

I understand the purpose of tiering mons and I don't have a problem with that practice in general. What I'm contesting is your affinity for simply tossing mons left and right until all the threats have been removed from the primary tier that is OU. This tier

I also find it kind of amusing that part of your reluctance to adapt this type of complex ban (which, frankly is quite simple and easy to apply) is as much about protecting past precedence as it is trying to maintain a coherent balance philosophy. Would it be such a bad thing to review your past bans?

I still completely reject your mewtwo example. Mosa can run several ENTIRE, NORMAL sets without QD. I personally still run a few non-QD sets on a couple of my teams - this is not comparable in any way to your crappy mewtwo argument, or the other "Ubers with 40bp attacks" argument. Nobody is asking for any of that and if you don't believe in the strength of your community to weed out irrational arguments like those you should just give up.

Flagging QD mosa to ubers isn't hard nor would it be inappropriate but I think you're missing out if you remove the other competitive sets from OU.

Fine, reject the Mewtwo example and I can replace it with literally any fucking Uber. My argument, regardless of how you may feel about it, is no less credible than those. If you extend that form of tiering policy to Pheromosa, you must extend it to everything. That's why we don't do complex bans. Also, we would embark down this absurd path of endless tiering that would never allow a metagame to stabilize. We'd never know what's in need of trimming or not because we would have so many other things constantly hitting the meta. Our method is time-efficient and effective.

ADDITIONALLY, I've said this twice now, maybe third time's the charm: Quiver Dance is not a broken set. None of Phero's sets individually are broken. Banning QD is entirely arbitrary. You could just as easily complex ban Choice Band, Specs, Z-Crystals on Phero, you name it. The problem with that is that none of those sets are broken either, so the simplest thing to do is just to ban the Pokemon.

 

[tenkai]

I understand the purpose of tiering mons and I don't have a problem with that practice in general. What I'm contesting is your affinity for simply tossing mons left and right until all the threats have been removed from the primary tier that is OU.

I also find it kind of amusing that part of your reluctance to adapt this type of complex ban (which, frankly is quite simple and easy to apply) is as much about protecting past precedence as it is trying to maintain a coherent balance philosophy. Would it be such a bad thing to review your past bans?

I still completely reject your mewtwo example. Mosa can run several ENTIRE, NORMAL sets without QD. I personally still run a few non-QD sets on a couple of my teams - this is not comparable in any way to your crappy mewtwo argument, or the other "Ubers with 40bp attacks" argument. Nobody is asking for any of that and if you don't believe in the strength of your community to weed out irrational arguments like those you should just give up.

Flagging QD mosa to ubers isn't hard nor would it be inappropriate but I think you're missing out if you remove the other competitive sets from OU.

I get the feeling I'm gonna get yelled at soon for dragging a point on too far, but here's the thing I think you're missing: yes, you're correct in saying that it would be simple to just not allow Phero to use QD, but as several people have already said, once you've done a complex ban once, you can start to do that with anything and it just becomes a mess. Fine, you don't like the 40 base power move thing? Ok, what about blaziken without speed boost? aegislash without king's shield? Mega kangaskhan without seismic toss? Lucario's only allowed to use physical moves? This shit just doesn't end once you do it once. Seriously, literally no one is saying it would be hard to ban QD phero, we're saying once you pull that shit once you can't really disagree to do it again and it'll just siral out of control.

Also, sun king just said this way better than I can, quiver dance is not the problem. Quiver dance isn't phero's most splashable set and individually its not broken. None of phero's individual sets are broken, its all of these sets in combination that make phero potentially broken

 

[Mame YO]

None of the sets are broken, therefore ban.

That's a worse argument than banning the mon because one set is broken... it's broken because you can't reliably predict the set? Damn. To circle around, your community doesn't really seem to agree with that argument. based on the conversation taking place throughout the thread.

 

[Sun King]

None of the sets are broken, therefore ban.

That's a worse argument than banning the mon because one set is broken... it's broken because you can't reliably predict the set? Damn. To circle around, your community doesn't really seem to agree with that argument. based on the conversation taking place throughout the thread.

None of Aegislash's sets were broken, yet we've voted two generations in a row to ban it because it imposed far too much of a restriction on the metagame. Since you seem to be prone to a common law standard, there's your precedent. Pheromosa places such a huge constraint on team building. Banning it gives rise to a multitude of new strategies, whereas keeping it only preserves a couple. The meta's adaptation has largely revolved around Pheromosa and what hellish new set it wants to unleash upon the world.

 

[PimpParasect]

None of the sets are broken, therefore ban.

That's a worse argument than banning the mon because one set is broken... it's broken because you can't reliably predict the set? Damn. To circle around, your community doesn't really seem to agree with that argument. based on the conversation taking place throughout the thread.

None of the sets are broken

The combination of being able to use any of them with its movepool and stats are.

Nobody bitched about any particular aegislash set being broken inorder to ban it (was it king's shield? No head smash nuking mandibuzz tipped it last gen!) its the fact that in team preview you can't do jack shit but throw a random mon out and hope its the right set.. and all the sets are deadly in their own regard. This is the case for phero, as scouting it is a case of "what it MIGHT do" not "what it WILL do". And if it does do what you don't want it to do, there is 0 drawbacks to it for retaliation (unlike a random grassium Z heatran killing your rotom, you can retaliate on the fact heatran just lost its item and its heatran.. however with phero, if it surprises you it just continues to do its thing or outright win off the ability alone)

EDIT: I guess can say ninja'd since somebody read my mind with examples.

 

[Mame YO]

I like how this is shaping up. You want to ban a mon that you admit isn't even broken, simply because too many sets are viable (which is a game designers wet dream btw). I'm convinced that your philosophy is flawed and if you can't see it than you're missing the point of gaming in the first place.

Again, a game developer would never consider removing content to be their first, or second or third, option. It's a last resort. Modifying a mon's available move set by one move, removing a unique ability (arena trap anyone?) or item are all options that any competent developer would consider over outright removing core content.

 

[Sun King]

I like how this is shaping up. You want to ban a mon that you admit isn't even broken, simply because too many sets are viable (which is a game designers wet dream btw). I'm convinced that your philosophy is flawed and if you can't see it than you're missing the point of gaming in the first place.

Again, a game developer would never consider removing content to be their first, or second or third, option. It's a last resort. Modifying a mon's available move set by one move, removing a unique ability (arena trap anyone?) or item are all options that any competent developer would consider over outright removing core content.

No, we aren't saying it's not broken. We're saying none of its individual sets are broken, so we cannot apply a complex ban like you say. Pheromosa is broken because of the fact that you cannot tell how to play against it in any given match until it's already done something brutal. It forces you to make a considerably worse team or play regardless of the situation just by existing.

 

[Leo]

I like how this is shaping up. You want to ban a mon that you admit isn't even broken, simply because too many sets are viable (which is a game designers wet dream btw). I'm convinced that your philosophy is flawed and if you can't see it than you're missing the point of gaming in the first place.

Again, a game developer would never consider removing content to be their first, or second or third, option. It's a last resort. Modifying a mon's available move set by one move, removing a unique ability (arena trap anyone?) or item are all options that any competent developer would consider over outright removing core content.

Once again, complex banning Quiver Dance Pheromosa is not an option. It's never been one and more than likely never will, discussing that here is pointless and I'm pretty sure one of the rules of this thread is no discussion on the suspect process. As far as I'm concerned that includes discussing complex bans

 

[Gary]

This argument is actually going nowhere. It's beyond dumb and it's giving me aids. Anymore posts involving this recent argument will be deleted. Clearly no side is going to win so it just needs to stop. Thanks.

 

[Toshiro46]

There's been a lot of discussion on why exactly Pheromosa is broken. It's clear why it needs a ban - it's far too centralizing in the meta and difficult to play around, requiring you to either run a specific mon (Fini, Pex, Alowak) just to check it (not even counter, because none of those qualify as a counter) efficiently or to otherwise limit your team building in order to not be complete prey to it. Even then, there's likely a set you aren't prepared for, and if the opponent is running it you're likely fucked.

But why is it broken? I've seen people in this thread point to QD, its new normalium Z set, or just z moves in general. I've seen (and been one of the) people who claim it's far too similar to Deoxys, and finally most popularly I've seen people point to how unpredictable it is. All of these are part of its brokenness, to be sure, but I don't think Deoxys-type stats are inherently broken - Mega-Alakazam has the speed and SpA of Deoxys-A with actual decent SpD and a good set of moves (perfect neutral coverage in 3 moves!), but no one really uses it right now lol. I don't think z-moves are the problem either, as honestly they've done a lot of good for the diversity of mons in OU - Scolipede being used for reasons other than BPing would never have happened, for instance, and it gives new relevance to other sweepers like Salamence and Gyarados, which had both lost their OU status in XY. Finally, I don't think that Phero's QD set with or without normalium z (or other z moves) is broken by itself.

All of these together combine to make a mon that's very unpredictable and punishes wrong predictions, often with sacking a mon. Unpredictability isn't exactly bad, either - Landorus-T is unpredictable, but there's not a huge outcry for it to be suspected. If you guess it to be a defensive set and it's the DD set, you might have to sack a mon to deal with it.

What ultimately breaks Phero is Beast Boost (at least imo). The unpredictability means that not only are you going to sack a mon if you guess wrong, but Phero is going to get even more powerful and possibly make a sweep a foregone conclusion. Not only that, but Beast Boost is itself unpredictable - you don't know if it's going to be a SpA boost, a Spe boost, or an Atk boost.

Phero puts the opponent into a guessing game (very rarely an educated one) and punishes the wrong guesses with insane snowball potential aided by Beast Boost, because after 1-2 Beast Boosts, its checks stop being checks.

I think this'll be my last post on the subject, because there's nothing else to say.

 

[TURBODERP]

What ultimately breaks Phero is Beast Boost. The unpredictability means that not only are you going to sack a mon if you guess wrong, but Phero is going to get even more powerful and possibly make a sweep a foregone conclusion. Not only that, but Beast Boost is itself unpredictable - you don't know if it's going to be a SpA boost, a Spe boost, or an Atk boost.

Dunno if it's what breaks it, but you bring up an important point that's often overlooked.

Phero is so fast to begin with, and if it gets a Beast Boost in Speed (fairly common) then the Scarfers that many teams rely on to revenge kill Phero are outspeed and OHKO'd, which is ridiculous.

 

[qwertym]

Dear all,
I am new to the forum and I am not keen on OU metagame (remember it, please), hence I will add to this discussion only a few of personal comments, which I would appreciate to compare with your feedback.

I don't have a clear idea regarding banning or not Phero but probably I agree with the ban, not because of its unpredictability or strength but for the only reason that it centralizes the metagame. If I had to build an ou team I would probably start from the question "How to conteract this monster?". If I understand correctly the logic behind ou meta, I assume that it is exactly the reason why a pokèmon should be banned.

However, I don't understand at all why only a few pokemon, namely Marowak-alola, Toxapex and maybe Buzzwole are regarded here as the only check/counters to Phero. You also mentioned some scarf users, which can outspeed it before it gets Spe boosts and priority users (in absence of the pshyicic terrain). Imo, there are other options to check/counter it, which are probably less effective in general but surely more original and unpredictable and I would find very interesting to read your comments about why they would not work according to your experience.

In addition I had the impression that the discussion conducted up to now, magnified the presence of several feasible sets, without considering that it can use only one set for match (ok, unpredictable up to a certain extent but still limited), stimulating the ability of the Phero's owner to find alternative solutions to get rid of the remaining Phero's counters.

The first group of checks/counters I propose is made up of pokes which have little utility aside from stopping Phero. I would include in the list Shedinja, FEAR strategy, almost any pokemon with focus sash and especially Ditto (!!). Imo a good player can still take advantage of such pokes also apart from Phero (e.g.Sashed/scarfed Ditto, sashed Alola-Dugtrio, Breelom or Unburden-Hawlucha), but I assume they are not viable at top ladder, as well as rain teams.

Differently, I think that a realistic option to deal with Phero would be Sableye.I attach here a feasible set (imo)

Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Will-O-Wisp
- Dazzling Gleam
- Recover

True, it needs to be switched in carefully (prior damage is a big problem) but once it enters safely the game it has the potential to shut down Phero almost completely .
First of all, the presence of a ghost in the team limits the use of normal and fighting moves, particularly HJK, limiting the range of Phero's options even before Sableye's appearance. (A thing that has been underestimated in the discussion, imo).
If we consider a physical Phero, the only way to deal huge damage to Sableye is U-Turn (64-76%). However, Sableye can punish it with Will-o-Wisp (no psychich terrain) or clear off damage with recover the turn later. If a switch is predicted, Sableye gains momentum making possible an attack, a calm-mind boost or a double switch. Even without prediction, thought, one can use calm mind and scout Phero's set relatively safely.
And now we turn to the more complicated case of special sets, on which this set is build.
If Phero has no SpA boosts, it is easily killed by Sableye. Indeed, unboosted BugBuzz is (51-61%) hence Sableye has obvious momentum due to the prankster CalmMind.
A +1SpA Phero is more cumbersome to deal with, since Sableye risks to be 2OHKOed even after 2CalmMind (the % is 51-61 the firs turn since both would be at +1, -6% leftovers, 38-46% the second turn). If not 2OHKOed, Sableye can counteract with DazzlingGleam or continue with Recover, in order to progressively clear-off damage, risking a critical or additional Phero's boosts, however.
At worse, excluding criticals and lucky shots (<5% prob), Sableye wins the 1vs1 also against +1SpA Phero, regardless of its speed, even if it results almost useless for the rest of the match, after this win. However, in normal game situations, it has a notable utility also apart from Phero (e.g. against Lando, other non-fire physical powerhouses or against unboosted special attackers), and imo an intelligent teambuilder may find room for it also in top-ladder teams.
Variants may include Sitrus or Petaya Berry, Weakness policy, etc. giving to Sableye also a minimum unpredictability.

The second vaible option, which seems to be pretty underestimated in this discussion is TrickRoom. Why caring such a huge speed if it can be used against it?
In particular once a sacrificed pokemon (any) has set up trick room, Phero can be used as a setup bait for any pokemon, since all of them will be slower than it thanks to beast boost. The question is to find a pokemon that can exploit this quickly in order to continue sweeping also after the end of trick room. Imo opportune use of Magearna, Buzzwole and other monsters may allow them not only to destroy Phero but also to setup and become powerful sweepers for the continuation of the game. Other Pokes with Beast Boost are somewhat the best options in this regard for obvious reasons and have also utility apart from this particular case.

Adding all the mentioned alternatives to the well-known ones and to the joint effect of entry hazards, sticky web, etc. I conclude that there is plenty (I am exaggerating a bit) of options to deal with Pheromosa efficiently but I repeat that its attitude to centralize the meta is insane imo, thus justifying the ban.

I apologize for my lack of experience, which probably led me to wrong conclusions. I would appreciate your opinion in this regard.

 

[aurora]

snip

You are viewing things in a vacuum. Regular Sableye has next to no viability in OU thanks, in part, to the Prankster nerf and the fact that it is extremely easy to deal with by the plethora of special attackers / Fairies / etc. in the tier. It is not a good defensive Pokemon. Running it solely to deal with Pheromosa is a waste of a teamslot. Trick Room is a fun playstyle that can screw offensive teams over but it's horribly matchup-reliant and gimmicky, falling flat against anything that isn't offense, which makes it not worth running a good amount of the time. I realise you seem to agree with the majority of people that Pheromosa is banworthy but running these strategies solely to deal with Pheromosa is really not a good idea and, if anything, highlights how silly it is.

 

[Jojobobo]

For Trick Room as a counter measure from the perspective of a Trick Room player, while Pheromosa is assuredly at your mercy while Trick Room is up, the Z-moves of the Quiver Dance set can still clean your team when Trick Room goes down when you need to set it again - and sash sets can also cause you a lot of problems if you don't succeed in getting hazards up. This isn't to say that the advantage isn't in the hands of the Trick Room player, just that if the opponent is careful with their Pheromosa things aren't so much of a wash as you might expect.

Further, if Trick Room ever became a dominant playstyle all it takes to ruin Trick Room is one mon on a standard offence team also running Trick Room or Taunt more often (where Taunt can be foiled by a Mental Herb, using Trick Room when Trick Room is already up turns Trick Room off so it's sure fire). I don't think Trick Room teams are ever going to be that rampant, but if there was a huge rise in them it's not like it's an uncounterable strategy because of this - as such long term it wouldn't work as the defacto anti-offence strategy and only works currently because most people can't make Trick Room teams well enough for it to be a serious factor when other people design their teams.

 

[Ads20000]

I do not in any way, shape or form speak for the council, but I doubt this will happen. This is hardly the first time Smogon has had a lopsided suspect (the fact that the more recent suspects this gen were not lopsided were more plesent surprises then anything else), and there is no real precedent for hastening the suspect process. So in the meantime feel free to taste the pheromosa-less meta on PS, enjoy the limited conversation here, check out another thread, or just wait a couple weeks for it all to be over.

Edited (see Dakress' comment below): I agree, just play the current suspect ladder, you'll want to get good at the post-Pheromosa metagame before the normal OU ladder comes back with it banned anyway.

Can I lay down a further challenge to the pro-ban (super)majority/consensus here, specifically what parts of Articles II, III, and IV of OU's tiering policy framework 'Definitions' (TPFD) does Phermosa come under? (I'm guessing only Articles III and IV, but can someone write a comprehensive post using as many sound arguments as possible in great detail referring to specific article parts (e.g. 'Pheromosa limits team-building skill that it requires the use of the gimmicky Pokemon x to check/counter it which satisfies TPFD Article III.C.' and more sentences in this format)). Also is it mostly 'uncompetitive', 'broken', or 'unhealthy for the metagame'? There seems to be some debate over whether it is 'broken' or just 'unhealthy for the metagame'?

This seems like a high bar to lay down but people are saying there's nothing more to contribute but I think a really really comprehensive post laying down all the sound arguments (those that actually work, maybe starting with those which have most consensus) and referring to the relevant TPFD articles would be really useful in making it as clear as possible exactly why Phero is being banned.

 

[Dakress]

I have another suggestion - if Pheromosa is as broken as people suggest, go and abuse it whilst you still can and climb the OU ladder. Or maybe those who say it is 'broken' are wrong and it is merely 'unhealthy' for the metagame (and should still be banned because of that).

We can't right now due to the suspect ladder. If anything, the tournaments and high ladder replays should already give us an idea about how much pressure it causes.

Not really sure if what I'm gonna say it's off topic, but I'm enjoying the current suspect ladder. I don't have to worry about outspeeding the speed demon, there's finally a reason to use M-Bee in it (that thing is brutal if you don't have/like using Lando-T for some reason), and things like Serperior and Weavile are super viable at the moment. It's still not perfect, mostly due to M-Metagross, Protean Greninja and stall Mega Sableye, but right now I'm seriously having a pretty good time. (Also Gliscor may become a thing again in OU??? Haven't really seen one as of late, so...)
Vote to ban phero plz (don't think I'm gonna make it). The metagame's 10x better without it.

EDIT: Sun King and JoycapJoshST are right with Stall being easier to beat for some reason. Maybe Phero's influence on the meta was bigger than we thought?

 

[Ads20000]

We can't right now due to the suspect ladder. If anything, the tournaments and high ladder replays should already give us an idea about how much pressure it causes.

Ah sorry, last I checked there was both an OU and OU (suspect test) ladder there. Yeah just play the OU (suspect test) ladder and get some experience in post-Phero OU imho.

 

[Joycap]

I'd like to mention that banning Phero I think will help slightly against things like Stall as well, as weird as it sounds. Due to being the front runner of this generations' power creep, it's blocked out the likes of Rotom-W and MB Excadrill (mons that were a hell of a lot more common last gen, and has their uses vs Stall), as well as other wallbreakers like Kyurem-B; Hoopa-U and certain megas coming back into commission (Mega Sceptile / Mega Beedrill come to mind).

 

[Sun King]

I'd like to mention that banning Phero I think will help slightly against things like Stall as well, as weird as it sounds. Due to being the front runner of this generations' power creep, it's blocked out the likes of Rotom-W and MB Excadrill (mons that were a hell of a lot more common last gen, and has their uses vs Stall), as well as other wallbreakers like Kyurem-B; Hoopa-U and certain megas coming back into commission (Mega Sceptile / Mega Beedrill come to mind).

Actually, banning Phero is likely to have a negative effect on Stall. I've seen a HUGE influx of Zygarde, which pretty much demolishes Stall.

 

[Joycap]

Actually, banning Phero is likely to have a negative effect on Stall. I've seen a HUGE influx of Zygarde, which pretty much demolishes Stall.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Mons like Zygarde that throttle Stall appreciate Phero gone (colleague Sherlock, I never would have guessed), a thus Stall becomes more manageable.

Myself 6 months ago would probably be asking how well Phero' does vs Stall, but hey that probably adds more questions then it answers lol.

 

[Sun King]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Mons like Zygarde that throttle Stall appreciate Phero gone (colleague Sherlock, I never would have guessed), a thus Stall becomes more manageable.

Myself 6 months ago would probably be asking how well Phero' does vs Stall, but hey that probably adds more questions then it answers lol.

My mistake, I misinterpreted your post. Anyone else noticing any major changes in the suspect thread? As noted, I've seen a huge rise in Zygarde, and also I've seen a lot of Metagrosses dropping Bullet Punch for better coverage. I definitely think w/o Phero, Metagross is a lot better because of the added coverage.

 

[Joycap]

My mistake, I misinterpreted your post. Anyone else noticing any major changes in the suspect thread? As noted, I've seen a huge rise in Zygarde, and also I've seen a lot of Metagrosses dropping Bullet Punch for better coverage. I definitely think w/o Phero, Metagross is a lot better because of the added coverage.

haha it happens...

As for the suspect ladder - the only reason I see MegaGross dropping BP is that they're on PsySpam ft. Lele, where BP would otherwise be counterproductive. I feel the same way about Scald Fini, but that's a topic for another day.

Speaking of which, where's each of the individual Tapus in the midst of this suspect do we think?