Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - The Robots - Metagrossite BANNED

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I'm not necessarily keeping my thoughts narrowly on metagross; moreso I'm making statements based on my experience in the actual suspect metagame. I'm a consequentialist at heart, so a key question along those lines is "does removing metagross make the meta more fun?"

Is it? What positive trends have you actually observed in the meta?
I find the suspect meta more fun utilizing my koko-medicham offense, so according to you, my anecdotal experience is enough grounds for a ban /s

Removing megagross has allowed for a lot more variety in viable pokemon and viable sets. Mega scizor now has the breathing room to run swords dance and not just be a megagross wall, nihilego has increased in viability and is a potent scarfer...

checks to tapus (which people are sooooo afraid of if megagross gets banned) such as spdef jirachi, av magearna, av magnezone, and av muk-a have increased in viability...

and teams no longer have to dedicate 2-3 pokemon on every team just to deal with megagross.

Stall was an increasingly difficult playstyle, even before the suspect test, to pull off with the plethora of stallbreakers that have been added from ORAS to SM, partly in thanks to z crystals. With megagross removed, stallbreakers like lele, heatran, bulu, and zygarde are even more viable now as they don't have to worry about getting ohko'd by megagross. If you're struggling with balance or stall, odds are that your team isn't well-built or you're playing badly against defensive cores.

The ladder is young, anyway. You can't judge a metagame in less than a week.
 
As an avid nihilego user I disagree. Yes, metagross made things difficult for this mon but there a a ton of obstacles to this Mon's viability including but not limited to the omnipresence of grounds and steels. Metagross not being around isn't changing much for this mon.

Scizor's situation has barely changed as well, with counterplay for this mon all over the place. Most teams are running something to take care of steels like scizor - forcing the red bug out isn't exactly a difficult task. Scizor isn't getting SD off and staying in long enough to use it vs most competent teams.

I definitely feel that the overall inclination among the community is that the meta must change for the better absent megagross, but I don't see that as a forgone conclusion. I see a lot of exaggeration in the ban arguments and its worrisome.
 
Okay, I only wanted to post 1 comment on this thread, but this is getting ridiculous now. You cannot use an argument about the megas that we do not have yet being able to balance out the metagame. Are we supposed to wait for months until the right mega stones are released to balance out the tier with respect to Mega Metagross? Of course not! We need to try and make the metagame as fair and balanced as possible at all times regardless of whether or not something has been released yet. Please try to make arguments that actually are relevant to what the current OU metagame actually is at present.

If you want a good counter argument, here:
Mega Metagross is a very powerful pokemon that is a powerful force to behold in the OU tier. It has very solid stats, it sits at a very solid speed tier of base 110, and it has a very wide array of moves at its disposal. Mega Metagross is very difficult to deal with due to its strong offensive presence and versatility; however, Mega Metagross suffers from a lack of recovery, must be built carefully to match the team it is placed on, can be whittled down easily throughout a battle, and finds difficulty switching directly into battle due to its overall value on any team. Mega Metagross does not have 4 moveslot syndrome since it is able to potentially perform its role as a powerful wall breaker regardless of the moves it opts to run (no matter what, it will be hitting something for some damage essentially). Although Mega Metagross does not "technically" have 4 moveslot syndrome it does have a common trait across all of its most common and viable sets: There is always a way to beat it regardless of whatever 4 moves it runs. It always has Meteor Mash, that's not really arguable. So then you have 3 moves which can consist of: Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Grass Knot (for Hippo, Slowbro, Gastrodon, Quagsire, and several others which may appear from time to time; of course this is the least likely coverage move it will run), HP Fire, or Bullet Punch (yes Agility/Rock Polish are technically valid, but are rarely seen). So how are you supposed to go about handling Metagross-Mega when it has such an unpredictable array of moves available? As I stated earlier, there is always a way to beat Mega Metagross no matter what it wants to run. Many people have repeatedly stated that you have to switch in and out of battle just to scout for its moves to figure out its counters and valid checks. This is simply not always true. There is more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. As I stated what Mega Metagross' faults were, all of them can be taken advantage of in several manners (lack of recovery, must be built to match its team, easily worn down throughout a battle, difficulty directly switching into battle due to the need to preserve its longevity).

Metagross, like any offensive pokemon, can be pressured not to come out into battle at all. With enough offensive pressure, a player is able to keep certain pokemon from coming into battle. Since Metagross lacks recovery and very rarely wants to directly switch into attacks to maximize its longevity, it can potentially find some difficulty entering the battle against strong offensive pressure. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-553431857 Notice how my opponent did not want to send Mega Meta into the battle. The pure pressure being put on from Kingdra in the rain and the possible defensive answers in Gastrodon and M-Scizor kept Mega Meta out of the battle until it was too late for Mega Meta to really do much of anything. I've noticed through playing enough competitive pokemon that most offensive spam teams/cores have a tendency to cause this type of offensive pressure which scare something from entering the battle to an extent. So this is only a minor instance of how one might take advantage of Mega Metagross' faults since it is limited to a certain type of offensive build.

Okay, so what about when it CAN come into battle because you might not have the right type of offense for that purpose? That brings us to how it can be punished via defensive pressure if it chooses to enter the battle or how it can be quickly worn down through offensive counterplay.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-533238829
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-533228976
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-533172512
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-533132265
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-554386188
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-539439379
Alright, so there are several replays there depicting how you can both defensively and offensively handle Mega Metagross. Though the terrains may benefit Mega Metagross, they can also benefit other mons to a much greater extent in some cases, such as Heatran in grassy terrain. Kartana can set up on Metagross without hammer arm if they run the SD timid set to get a speed boost from their ability (controversial as a set or not, you can't deny it's a set that exists). Rocky Helmet Tangrowth and AV Tangrowth can counter/check and check Mega Meta respectively. Physically defensive Zapdos is another really good answer to Mega Metagross on defense and on offense and quickly wears down Mega Metagross. There are a ton of potential answers that will vary depending on Metagross' set; however there is no argument that Mega Metagross will always run coverage for all those answers at one time. It simply can't. I understand the metagame has changed since some of those battles happened, but that has nothing to do with Mega Metagross seeing as it hasn't actually changed within the OU meta due to it running the same role as a hole puncher on essentially every team. So when you get into the idea thinking you have to pivot around to figure out its moveset, you should also think of the idea that Mega Meta doesn't blatantly OHKO everything in its path and that there are some things which you could leave in battle against Mega Meta and immediately begin to wear it down whilst learning its moveset in the process. Stall playstyles can't really do that, but stall does have Dugtrio, Skarmory, and other evil stall monsters that appear which can be a headache for Mega Metagross.
As several people have already stated, Mega Metagross is probably not going to stay in battle for more than a couple of turns before it leaves, which in turn means it will (probably) have to take hazard damage again at some point and is likely going to have to wait until it can be brought into battle safely.

I'm not going to repeat my argument that I made earlier in this thread explaining why I am leaning towards a ban. Just know that I am leaning towards a ban solely due to the fact that I think it over-centralises the metagame a little too much. If you're curious, go to the page where I make my argument.

Anyway, please make your arguments and counter-arguments on sound reasoning that has to do with the metagame that exists with respect to Mega Metagross. Don't bring things that don't exist into the equation. We're looking at Mega Metagross in its own entirety. Do Not Ban.

(edit: I changed my mind having tried laddering on 3 different accounts. The OU metagame without metagross is just... frustrating to say the least)
 
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The suspect ladder is terrible. That's good enough reason to keep mega metagross, without even needing to get into any of this. As the community continues to ban offensive threats, defensive mons continue to become more prominent and semi-stall/bulky offense is becoming preferential to balance/offense/hyper offense. Everyone is running defensive cores like skarm/chansey or some version of toxapex/celesteela etc etc. Or they're just going full stall mode and trolling the ladder for their voting reqs. trying to play an offensive play style in this meta is absolutely a terrible idea and an even worse experience. I certainly haven't had fun at all since the suspect started.

You are all theorymonning metagross vs X scenarios. But who is actually enjoying the suspect meta right now? What metagame trends are you seeing and do you feel that they're healthy? Do you find any problem at all with continuing to tilt the meta towards a slower, defensive pace?
Welcome to suspect ladders? Stall is consistent, therefore, stall will be used. That is the nature of suspect ladders. This happens every suspect. That in no way means it is "unhealthy" by the way.

Not that they're rising because megagross is gone, but, even if this was the new flow of the metagame, that is how meta shifts work. Carry breakers, profit.
 
As an avid nihilego user I disagree. Yes, metagross made things difficult for this mon but there a a ton of obstacles to this Mon's viability including but not limited to the omnipresence of grounds and steels. Metagross not being around isn't changing much for this mon.

Scizor's situation has barely changed as well, with counterplay for this mon all over the place. Most teams are running something to take care of steels like scizor - forcing the red bug out isn't exactly a difficult task. Scizor isn't getting SD off and staying in long enough to use it vs most competent teams.

I definitely feel that the overall inclination among the community is that the meta must change for the better absent megagross, but I don't see that as a forgone conclusion. I see a lot of exaggeration in the ban arguments and its worrisome.
As an avid nihilego abuser... I disagree about you disagreeing. Scarf nihilego is a fantastic late game cleaner thanks to beast boost once steels and grounds are gone or weakened, which isn't that hard to do on the hazards offense teams where nihilego thrives. It's also a rare fire type switch-in, which offense seems to lack. Losing a hard counter greatly boosted its viability. But we're not here to discuss nihilego. We can take that discussion to the viability threads after this suspect.

Scizor can definitely clean with SD now as it isn't forced to be a tank primarily for megagross. You obviously cannot SD up in the early game with heatran and fire types healthy on the opposing team (you u-turn instead), but now it actually has the breathing room to function as a late game cleaner and bulky pivot simultaneously as opposed to being a megagross pivot. No setup mon can set up with its checks being healthy anyway, unless you were pheromosa lol.

My previous reply to you is a good summary about how the meta has diversified in the suspect ladder without megagross. I didn't say that's how the meta "must" change, but that's how the meta "has" changed for the better. A lot of pro-ban arguments are very strong and not exaggerated, but it's very convenient to ignore anything that doesn't fit in your view.

Also, why do you always imply negativity towards the community in some way or another? You challenged smogon policies in the previous suspect thread (which is not the place to do so), and now you're claiming the community is exaggerating the megagross problem without backing up your presumptuous claims.
 
There are plenty of solid no ban arguments in this thread to back up my "presumptuous" claims. The first thing I've learned about this place is that smogon is heavily biased in favor of removing difficult offensive threats. As an outsider with a ton of PvP experience throughout the years on various platforms, I'm no stranger to balance discussions and frankly this bias can be quite damaging.

The metagross discussion has repeatedly devolved into fantastical claims like "you need 2-3 mons on every team" to account for it, and "you only know for sure that it's carrying mash" implying that it's too unpredictable for OU - which is obviously a key claim around here considering your ban policies. And that just isn't the case. As others have stated, it's not very difficult to figure out most or all of it's moveset pretty early and react accordingly. Most people are carrying a mon or two to check megagross, but these mons are also pretty useful to check several other threats as well; It isn't like we're all running otherwise unviable mons to deal with megagross. So yes, you're exaggerating.
 
There are plenty of solid no ban arguments in this thread to back up my "presumptuous" claims. The first thing I've learned about this place is that smogon is heavily biased in favor of removing difficult offensive threats. As an outsider with a ton of PvP experience throughout the years on various platforms, I'm no stranger to balance discussions and frankly this bias can be quite damaging.

The metagross discussion has repeatedly devolved into fantastical claims like "you need 2-3 mons on every team" to account for it, and "you only know for sure that it's carrying mash" implying that it's too unpredictable for OU - which is obviously a key claim around here considering your ban policies. And that just isn't the case. As others have stated, it's not very difficult to figure out most or all of it's moveset pretty early and react accordingly. Most people are carrying a mon or two to check megagross, but these mons are also pretty useful to check several other threats as well; It isn't like we're all running otherwise unviable mons to deal with megagross. So yes, you're exaggerating.
There haven't been many good anti-ban arguments made. In fact, there are entire posts in this thread describing why the most commonly used anti-ban "arguments" are not valid for megagross, like...

Arguments that aren't good anti-ban arguments:

4MSS - This as a whole is a pretty bullshit concept. Almost every mon in the game wants to run more than 4 moves. Megagross has the coverage for what he needs, and can fit it in 4 slots. His STABs are only resisted by 64 mons out of the 802 in the game (well, Marshadow isn't in the game yet). Out of those 64, the Bug/Steel types (of which Scizor is the only viable one), the Grass/Steel types (Ferro and Kartana), Bronzong, and Shedinja are the only mons not hit SE by EQ/Thunder Punch. If you want to hit those mons instead and miss out on a few others, you can run HP Fire or Hammer Arm. Ice Punch is another option for the pesky 4x weakness mons as well as Zapdos and Tangrowth. You can even forgo Zen Headbutt and get another coverage move for more SE hits. The point is that 4MSS is pretty dumb in general, but even if it wasn't, it wouldn't apply to Megagross (As an example, a mon that would be a better candidate for 4MSS is Mega Mawile, who wants Play Rough and Sucker Punch obviously, but needs better coverage like fire fang and thunder punch and knock off but also wants sub and SD and another STAB).

Weak Defensive Typing - I have yet to find a mixed steel typing that's weak defensively. Even something like rock/steel with one of the worst defensive types in the game and 2 4x weaknesses only has one weakness besides those and 8 resistances/1 immunity besides (two of them 4x); the same goes for ice/steel (another terrible defensive type in ice), with 2 4x weaknesses, one weakness besides that, and 8 resistances/1 immunity as well. Meanwhile, Megagross has one more weakness than either of them and crucially due to its great bulk no 4x weaknesses, but also has 9 resistances. That's not a weak defensive typing. A weak defensive typing is something like Rock/Ice (Aurorus), with double the weaknesses and less than half the resistances.

Weak Offensive Typing - Refer above to Metagross only hitting 64 pokemon for resisted damage with its STABs. Only 12 of them are OU. It can deal with the Steels on that list with Hammer Arm, EQ, or HP Fire, and it can deal with the few water, electric, and fire types (resisted by steel) with a secondary typing of psychic or dark (resisted by Psychic) with EQ or thunder punch (or hammer arm in the case of dark mons).

It has Checks - So does every mon, even the king of Ubers, PGroudon. More relevant, so did Aegislash, Pheromosa, Genesect, etc.

There's Counters - Bronzong and Hippowdon are irrelevant, Scizor is ganked by HPF, and RH Tang is 10% chip away from being 2HKOed and relies on Sleep Powder to shut megagross down.

No Recovery - 90% of the banned offensive threats also have no recovery and it never stopped them, and Megagross has insane bulk to work with unlike most of them.

It Can Be Trapped - Magnezone, Tyranitar, Muk, and Bisharp are all fucked by EQ. Dug is OHKOd without sash (and hello hazards) and can't OHKO in return without Z or Band. Pursuit Scizor has a host of its own issues.

It's a Mega - The main downside of most other megas in OU is that running them means you can't run Megagross. Being a Mega is less an issue for it.

Removing it would make the meta worse - Besides the absurdity of this idea, even if it were true it's not a viable antiban argument. We are here to determine if it is deserving of a ban, not whether or not the meta would be worse off without it.
Smogon does not favour removing offensive threats. Back in oras, sableye got suspected and banned from OU. In lower tiers, defensive pokemon like sableye and shuckle got placed in BL2. Smogon's banning policy sincerely doesn't care if it's an offensive pokemon or not. All they judge is if it's broken or overcentralizing in the meta. Again, I don't know why you always want to challenge smogon policy on these suspect threads. This isn't the place to do that.

Honestly, experience in other metas doesn't add a lot of weight to your arguments if you don't back up your claims. I'm an avid smash player myself and have watched the sm4sh and PM meta develop, so I'm familiar with overcentralization when I see it. That still doesn't mean anything in this argument, and I always see you falling back to two arguments when someone confronts you: "I have experience!" and "smogon sux". This is frankly childish and only derails threads, something you seem to try to do quite frequently on these forums. Anyway... back to the main topic.

You go from saying that "needing 2-3 mons to check megagross is fantastical", but you later say that most teams run 1-2 blanket checks to handle megagross and other threats. Most teams run two megagross checks (scizor, tangrowth, ferrothorn, defensive lando-t) depending on its moveset and one revenge killer for it (duggy or greninja). This is metagame stagnation, and causes teams to look very similar as megagross reduces the number of pivots, walls, and revenge killers that are viable for different archetypes. This level of overcentralization is grounds for a ban.

Megagross' moveset CANNOT be anticipated in the battle, but you can only safely assume meteor mash. From there on out, you have to assume 5-6 different coverage moves it could have and you have to continuously risk walls just to obtain that information. Sure, you can eventually obtain that knowledge, but this a risk-reward ratio that is heavily in the megagross' favor because you risk losing your walls if it has the correct moves to muscle through it. This is considered uncompetitive play, because the megagross user has a significant advantage over the other player, simply because they threw in megagross.

I'm not exaggerating and neither are the other pro-ban players. You can find all of the points I just mentioned in this thread, but it's very convenient to ignore what you don't agree with, isn't it.
 
Honestly, experience in other metas doesn't add a lot of weight to your arguments if you don't back up your claims. I'm an avid smash player myself and have watched the sm4sh and PM meta develop, so I'm familiar with overcentralization when I see it. That still doesn't mean anything in this argument, and I always see you falling back to two arguments when someone confronts you: "I have experience!" and "smogon sux". This is frankly childish and only derails threads, something you seem to try to do quite frequently on these forums. Anyway... back to the main topic.
I'm merely responding to accusations of you suck/don't know what you're talking about/etc by pointing out smogon's collective bias. Notice how I didn't say anything about my own experience until you started calling me presumptuous. Hostility begets hostility. You don't get to take the high ground if you're participating in Throwing stones, if I may mix metaphors.
 
I'm merely responding to accusations of you suck/don't know what you're talking about/etc by pointing out smogon's collective bias. Notice how I didn't say anything about my own experience until you started calling me presumptuous. Hostility begets hostility. You don't get to take the high ground if you're participating in Throwing stones, if I may mix metaphors.
? I haven't accused you once of being an inadequate player. What matters in a suspect discussion is metagame knowledge, not your credentials outside of SM OU.

I also didn't call you presumptuous. I stated that your claims of the whole community exaggerating megagross' overcentralizing presence is presumptuous. There's a noticeable difference.

I'm starting to doubt aspects of your literacy. I just went over how smogon policy does not care if you're an offensive threat or not. All that matters is if you're broken or overcentralizing to the metagame. There are countless, countless means to break defensive cores in SM OU to the point people argue whether balance can be considered a weaker style to use currently.

I have not been "throwing stones". You did derail the pheromosa suspect thread by arguing about smogon policy (that ISN'T the place to do that, and neither is here). You again claim that there is some sort of smogon "bias", like we're some sort of cult with an agenda. All I have done is respond to your unbacked claims.
 

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Yeah let's not talk about policy here please. If you have an issue, PM a council member. This is a place to discuss Metagross, nothing else. Despite the accusations that have been thrown out in this thread, Smogon is by no means bias towards banning offensive threats. As the poster above me stated, all that matters is reaching a balanced state, whether that be banning an offensive powerhouse like Mega Metagross, or something that heavily impacts match up and the viability of practically every hazard setter such as Mega Sableye in ORAS. Each generation there are a plethora of new offensive threats introduced, which just adds more and more pressure to the defensive playstyles that are aimed at walling everything. It's extremely obvious that GF favors releasing these offensive threats, whether it's to appease their casual fan base or not, and any of the new defensive threats they introduce usually just don't have the tools to make nearly as much of an impact on the meta, which is why most of them are often not suspect worthy. But regardless of that, we just recently suspected Dugtrio, which was primarily suspected for its ability to remove nearly any means of consistently beating stall. It didn't get banned, but that shows you that the council isn't favoring any sort of playstyle at all if they are willing to suspect Pokemon that are primarily used on defensive oriented teams. Besides, Metagross leaving wouldn't effect the viability of stall in any way. At most, Metagross pressures stall, but it needs quite a bit of support to do so and can be played around a lot more consistently, compared to something like Mawile. I never judge a metagame solely from a suspect ladder standpoint, because it's always the same. Stall has always been a consistent playstyle this gen, and it has been used successfully in practically every suspect we've had this gen so far, even during the Duggy suspect. Even if Metagross leaving somehow made stall unbreakable, we would obviously address that when the time comes.

But yeah, anyways, Mega Metagross. Please no more policy talk, blah blah blah posts will be deleted I'm a huge dick.
 
I'll keep this simple, but as a staller who desires to counter absolutely everything, I really don't see Metagross as the main hindrance to the metagame. Metagross is countered by essentially any defensive Pokemon with few weaknesses. All that's needed is a little moveslot discovery and I find Metagross to be threatening, but manageable.

With usage stats from Landorus and insane buffs from terrain setters in this gen, I don't think the problem is being identified with this suspect. Chances are that close to half the teams in the top 50 have a Landorus (and yes, one could make the argument that Adamant Lando is OP with its 2hko potential on most of the tier), and in this suspect, Tapu Lele is running completely wild without Metagross to counter it. Tapu Lele with Psyshock is just too completely powerful, and we may have to look at Tapu Bulu as well, since the only mon that can deal with its Wood Hammer and coverage moves completely is Skarmory.
 
I'll keep this simple, but as a staller who desires to counter absolutely everything, I really don't see Metagross as the main hindrance to the metagame. Metagross is countered by essentially any defensive Pokemon with few weaknesses. All that's needed is a little moveslot discovery and I find Metagross to be threatening, but manageable.

With usage stats from Landorus and insane buffs from terrain setters in this gen, I don't think the problem is being identified with this suspect. Chances are that close to half the teams in the top 50 have a Landorus (and yes, one could make the argument that Adamant Lando is OP with its 2hko potential on most of the tier), and in this suspect, Tapu Lele is running completely wild without Metagross to counter it. Tapu Lele with Psyshock is just too completely powerful, and we may have to look at Tapu Bulu as well, since the only mon that can deal with its Wood Hammer and coverage moves completely is Skarmory.
Have you read any posts in this entire thread? Because your entire anti-ban argument has been addressed. Multiple times. Thank god you clarified that you would keep your argument "simple" so I could conveniently replace that adjective with "obsolete."

Also, this is not the place to discuss potential suspects, especially for Pokemon that only you want suspected. Tapu Lele is good, but certainly not running wild in my experience, at least not if you're packing one of the 716478 other Steels in the metagame at the moment. And you claim to have an argument for Lando being OP? Show me. Usage alone is not grounds for broken-ness, and when you say Mega Metagross has plenty of "counters" (there's that fucking word again!) yet imply offensive Landorus-T has no counterplay, I'm seriously wondering if you think we're all idiots. You complain about not addressing the core problem and yet gloss over the actual centralizing forces in this metagame. Like, say, Greninja.
I'll just pretend you never brought up Tapu Bulu, lol.
Your post is fluff with a dash of hyperbole and a heaping tablespoon of willful ignorance. It is a bit pretentious to waltz into a suspect thread and claim the council and the playerbase are both completely wrong, hmm? You can believe Metagross shouldn't be banned, but believe it for the right reasons, holy moly.

*sighs*

Apologies for the bitterness, but god damn, the number of uninformed users posting here without even reading the comments of others seems unbearable this time...
 
I'll keep this simple, but as a staller who desires to counter absolutely everything, I really don't see Metagross as the main hindrance to the metagame. Metagross is countered by essentially any defensive Pokemon with few weaknesses. All that's needed is a little moveslot discovery and I find Metagross to be threatening, but manageable.

With usage stats from Landorus and insane buffs from terrain setters in this gen, I don't think the problem is being identified with this suspect. Chances are that close to half the teams in the top 50 have a Landorus (and yes, one could make the argument that Adamant Lando is OP with its 2hko potential on most of the tier), and in this suspect, Tapu Lele is running completely wild without Metagross to counter it. Tapu Lele with Psyshock is just too completely powerful, and we may have to look at Tapu Bulu as well, since the only mon that can deal with its Wood Hammer and coverage moves completely is Skarmory.
If you're only a staller, you're not going to understand how much of a burden Metagross is because you largely use the same 2-3 teams; stall has a particular build that's really well equipped to handle Metagross (and Lando can throw a wrench in it because of its various sets and ability to set rocks up against stall with SD). Offensive and Balance teams have a much bigger problem handling Meta because it forces them to devote at least one slot to it alone; stall kinda covers it without really trying.

As someone that used to exclusively play stall, I see where you're coming from, but we need to take care of ALL play styles, not just stall.
 
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I never post or ladder for suspects but since a lot of people have been making pretty ''bad'' comments on it i guess i should also be giving my opinion instead of just disagreeing.

I honestly think its crazy for someone to actually believe Metagross isnt broken, i mean it does have a move for every check/counter that you can think of and people just seem to think that something like Lando + Ferro 100% beats Meta by chipping it down, which is completely wrong as you need to get every turn right and if you get it wrong just once in the whole game its gonna cost you something every other time Metagross comes in; and even if that was a reliable way to beat Meta it still limits team building like anything as if you dont have Lando + Ferro/Helmet Tang (which is garb) on all your teams you just lose to the third most used pokemon in the tier.

I also saw some people saying how Koko, Gren and scarf Chomp just revenge it and that doesnt make it broken, but i guess everyone just forgets that none of those come in without dying and something has to be sacked for them to get in, and even when they do somehow come in without a sack most of them dont OHKO from full and have to be wacthing out for bp. Thats all considering Metagross stays in which it literally doesnt have to as it just comes in later to get a kill every single time and scarf mons are easy to switch into anyway, i guess Gren (whos also busted) is the one thing that can check it and also be a threat to the remainder of the team but that by no means makes Meta less broken. Even stuff like Sciz (who wasnt even considered good in the begining) has to play around the legit threat of hp fire which just proves that nothing is safe aganist Metagross

When it comes to stall (which also deserves to be talked about) i actually think Metagross is decently well taken care of, between Skarm, Alo and Duggy Metagross cant really break stall on its own. But we gotta remember that stall is far from being the most common playstyle, the extremely popular bulky offense builds of Lando + Meta/Mawile/Sciz + Gren/Keld/Pex + Tang/Ferro get 6-0d by Metagross depending on the set; more offensive builds with like scarf Chomp, Gengar and Magnezone/Koko can check more easily but cant switch in whatsoever so all ur doing is choosing how you wanna lose to it pretty much.

I think the problems that a lot of players think that if you ''predict'' right you can beat Metagross but theres actually little to no prediction involved, Meta just spams mash on most teams and then clicks the appropiate move according to the switch in (when there is one) of choice and theres no harm on doing that, helmet lando and helmet tang dont last forever and will only buy you some time before the inevitable.

Guess that explains what i think pretty well, i know this was long as shit and i doubt someone is actually gonna read the whole thing but thanks for reading regardless of how much you did.
 
My opinion on Megagross is that he should be banned because he is restrictive to team building on several fronts. The first is the obvious - he requires dedicated checks. That alone isn't enough to ban him. However, he's also the best Mega evolution to the point where its almost every other mega is either simply obsolete, or detrimental to include in a team. I know every mega isn't entitled to being super viable, but when megas like Mawile, Scizor and Medicham are being overlooked simply because they aren't worth picking over Metagross, there is a serious problem. The third issue is something that was key in getting Pheromosa banned. This thing adapts to beat any check you throw at it. Whatever the popular answer to it is one week will be useless against it the next week.

Sorry if this has all been said, I didn't actually read through the entire thread this time.
 
I'll keep this simple, but as a staller who desires to counter absolutely everything, I really don't see Metagross as the main hindrance to the metagame. Metagross is countered by essentially any defensive Pokemon with few weaknesses. All that's needed is a little moveslot discovery and I find Metagross to be threatening, but manageable.
I don't think you know the definition of counter. Also what kind of definition is "any defensive pokemon with few weaknesses"? lol
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

"Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

You can't even apply this to its fullest to helmet tangrowth. You can't win with the vast majority of the pokemons you see in a stall team. You can switch, somewhat safely, with some soft/hard checks. That's all. With his amazing defenses, metagross is not even easy to wear out for an offensive steam.
 
On the ability to "trap" megagross, there really isn't anything that can. Scizor's honestly the best, but that's only because hp fire isn't as common as other coverage moves. Magnezone gets slaughtered by Earthquake/Hammer Arm, and you won't ko if you've got a scarf. Plus you'll get ko'd immediately afterwards (Sack a mon for garunteed chip damage? Lol no thanks). Duggy can't ko unless groundium, band, or sash with no hazards up (hazard control is pretty meh right now anyways). Tyranitar can't even reliably pursuit trap it with Mash or Hammer owning it, same with Bisharp and Weavile.
 
So i got reqs and am still undecided. I personally think there are much bigger issues in the ou metagame at the moment such as protein greninja and baton passing speed. I have noticed a few things on the ladder without metagross, magearna is just running rampant and scarf lele has regained some of its popularity.
 

A

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Offense, Stall, BP, Webs. Long ago SM OU lived together in harmony, and then everything changed when Gamefreak attacked. Only Talonflame, master of priority brave bird can stop them. But when the meta needed him most, he got nerfed.

3 months have passed and the players have discovered the new Talonflame, the steel typed named Metagross (Mega). Although his tough claws are great, he has a lot to learn about hitting Meteor Mash. But I believe, Mmeta will save the tier.

The last Airbender.


I haven't gotten reqs yet, since one of my alts was unfortunately lost due to a BSOD (causing me to lose); but I would vote No Ban if i do decide to grind myself for today. I feel as if there's more pressing issues like Protean Greninja which are just beyond comprehension compared to MMeta, which i feel as if the meta has been starting to adapt around. It still has plentiful of answers that aren't stupidly niche and finds itself on common teams because of them checking other threats too. insert bad strawman argument about 4mss here

unban lando-i you nerds
 
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So i got reqs and am still undecided. I personally think there are much bigger issues in the ou metagame at the moment such as protein greninja and baton passing speed. I have noticed a few things on the ladder without metagross, magearna is just running rampant and scarf lele has regained some of its popularity.
I will never understand this line of thinking. Yes, those are problems, all of them are, but that has nothing to do with Megagross. We will get to those if they prove to be a problem. We are talking about Megagross and Megagross alone. Also, we've addressed the slippery slopes a million times over. Even if it were to be a domino effect, we will take them as they come. People cried the same thing when Aegi was being suspected, and yet, we didn't have 10 mons blow up and turn the metagame upside down after Aegislash was banned. This argument is literally nothing more than speculation. Let's not go down that path.

I would like to bring up a potentially interesting point for the NO BAN argument:

We're moments away from getting Mega Swampert. I know we don't have it this second, but we basically do, so it's a valid argument.

It happens to resist Meteor Mash and is immune to Thunder Punch and can tank a hit from every other move. Unless Megagross is running Grass Knot just for this pokemon? :P

It's a pretty good counter to Megagross and threatens with Earthquake. Would have been nice to see a meta WITH this mon before the suspect test.

(in before people argue Swampert takes up the mega slot)

This was addressed in page 7, I'd recommend looking it over.
 
I cannot believe I am having to post a second time, but I think the worst part is that it's not directly about Mega Metagross, which I personally want banned, but that's me and the justifications have been given throughout the thread. My major concern are those specifically wanting to vote "No ban" because "Greninja should be a higher priority".

Coming from a Protean Greninja user, Greninja is NOT as big of an issue as Megagross. In a meta without the latter, the former is certainly an issue that must be addressed (and likely will be the next suspect, but this is not the time nor place to elaborate, so I will save it for then), but to simply keep Megagross because of Greninja is absolutely ignorant. Broken should not check broken, broken needs to be banned regardless. It doesn't matter the state of the meta afterwards, for the most part, as the Council will choose the next broken threat and simply hold its own Suspect Test. In fact, talking about how Greninja is more of an issue seems borderline derailing combined with a skewed view of Megagross. The only other possibility is that the "No Ban" side is so desperate to come up with an argument that they need to single out another Pokemon in an attempt to hide their true intentions, which is still very unfortunate. The questions are not "Is another Pokemon MORE broken?" rather "Does Megagross have a negative impact on the meta and, if the answer is not a 110% no, how?" That question has been very much answered throughout the thread and it's almost like most people on the opposite side do not care (one user in particular since they attempted to also derail the Pheromosa suspect).

tl;dr Stop scapegoating Greninja in an attempt to please your Lord Hitler--I mean, Mega Metagross.
 

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I'm not going to point fingers or try and accuse anyone of employing this logic, as there's no point in doing so and lots of people seem to be trying to argue this way, but I feel like a lot of people are basing their arguments off of very poor, improper logic and theory that should almost never be used.

If a Pokemon is broken or banworthy in the current metagame as per any of the criteria listed in the tiering policy, which I outlined my personal opinion to previously, then it should be banned. We should not be basing our entire opinion on Mega-Metagross on if it being present in the metagame allows another Pokemon from not being banworthy. For example, a lot of people have been saying that Mega-Metagross being in the tier keeps Tapu Lele from being broken. However, this should not be a major factor in forming your opinion for Mega-Metagross as, if Tapu Lele or anything else in the metagame is deemed broken, then we can simply suspect it in the future like we would anything else that arises as problematic. The aforementioned approach, be it applied to Tapu Lele in a metagame lacking Mega-Metagross or anything else in the past, present, or future in regards to suspects, is something that I find to be poor and an excuse to try and argue in one way as opposed to the other. The primary, and really sole, focus of forming an opinion on a suspect should be if it fits any of the aforementioned parameters for being banworthy, nothing more and nothing less. People seem to forget this and forget that there is a future to this tier/more potential suspects when forming an opinion and try to do a "omg I'm going to form an opinion to save the OU metagame and fuck the conventional means of thinking" when there is an entire council of people who can determine future lines of action to continue improving the metagame. Removing broken elements from the tier is the number one priority right now and there are no real exceptions to that, is the point I'm trying to get across. With this said, I'm not saying you have to think Mega-Metagross should get banned if you employed this logic before. On the contrary, if you think that Mega-Metagross is not broken regardless of this, then by all means be anti-ban. I just believe that wanting things to stay in the tier in order to prevent other things from being broken, regardless of their individual impact/brokenness is poor and should be avoided at all costs.

Oh and while we're at it, any talk of unreleased Pokemon (i.e: Mega-Swampert) and their prospective impact on the metagame or on Mega-Metagross is completely irrelevant, should be kept out of this thread, and will be removed due to it not impacting the discussion or suspect metagame at all.
 
Hi everyone, quick announcement; the LST scheduled for today will be postponed til tomorrow. Not only was it scheduled for the same time as OST finals, but our host would prefer to not host at this point in time so we would prefer to postpone this until tomorrow at the same time. Sorry for short notice, please share the information with anyone you think cared to join. If you have any further questions, feel free to PM me.
 
I'm not going to point fingers or try and accuse anyone of employing this logic, as there's no point in doing so and lots of people seem to be trying to argue this way, but I feel like a lot of people are basing their arguments off of very poor, improper logic and theory that should almost never be used.

If a Pokemon is broken or banworthy in the current metagame as per any of the criteria listed in the tiering policy, which I outlined my personal opinion to previously, then it should be banned. We should not be basing our entire opinion on Mega-Metagross on if it being present in the metagame allows another Pokemon from not being banworthy. For example, a lot of people have been saying that Mega-Metagross being in the tier keeps Tapu Lele from being broken. However, this should not be a major factor in forming your opinion for Mega-Metagross as, if Tapu Lele or anything else in the metagame is deemed broken, then we can simply suspect it in the future like we would anything else that arises as problematic. The aforementioned approach, be it applied to Tapu Lele in a metagame lacking Mega-Metagross or anything else in the past, present, or future in regards to suspects, is something that I find to be poor and an excuse to try and argue in one way as opposed to the other. The primary, and really sole, focus of forming an opinion on a suspect should be if it fits any of the aforementioned parameters for being banworthy, nothing more and nothing less. People seem to forget this and forget that there is a future to this tier/more potential suspects when forming an opinion and try to do a "omg I'm going to form an opinion to save the OU metagame and fuck the conventional means of thinking" when there is an entire council of people who can determine future lines of action to continue improving the metagame. Removing broken elements from the tier is the number one priority right now and there are no real exceptions to that, is the point I'm trying to get across. With this said, I'm not saying you have to think Mega-Metagross should get banned if you employed this logic before. On the contrary, if you think that Mega-Metagross is not broken regardless of this, then by all means be anti-ban. I just believe that wanting things to stay in the tier in order to prevent other things from being broken, regardless of their individual impact/brokenness is poor and should be avoided at all costs.

Oh and while we're at it, any talk of unreleased Pokemon (i.e: Mega-Swampert) and their prospective impact on the metagame or on Mega-Metagross is completely irrelevant, should be kept out of this thread, and will be removed due to it not impacting the discussion or suspect metagame at all.
While I do agree with most of what you said here the anti-ban arguments are the only ones that have flaws. Any arguments that usually apply towards anti-ban arguments no longer apply anymore. Having checks and counters no longer matter, being frail or to slow no longer matters, whittling down no longer matters. The standard for banning pokemon have becoming so narrow that I feel like no argument will be good enough against certain holding this narrow view on banning.
 
While I do agree with most of what you said here the anti-ban arguments are the only ones that have flaws. Any arguments that usually apply towards anti-ban arguments no longer apply anymore. Having checks and counters no longer matter, being frail or to slow no longer matters, whittling down no longer matters. The standard for banning pokemon have becoming so narrow that I feel like no argument will be good enough against certain holding this narrow view on banning.
I mean, Dugtrio is literally still in the tier despite being suspected. I also don't know what you're trying to get at when you mention that only the anti-ban arguments are weak. Doesn't this trend simply indicate that there are few reasons to oppose a ban? You can't make a flawed argument and then complain when it's refuted. Unless existing pro-ban arguments are refuted in turn or solid, informed new reasoning is presented (which has happened a few times), I don't quite understand your concern.
 
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