Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - The Robots - Metagrossite BANNED

[nameless90]

Ban Mega Metagross

This thing is almost the perfect example of what the combination of stats, ability, typing and movepool can do. The only "problem" with it is the Mega slot argument, which doesn't really makes sense in this case because how good this thing is.

Defensively speaking, in ORAS Steel and Psychic together have proven to be less effective in practice than in theory due to the low starting Spe.

Now, in SUMO things have become better and better for Mega Metagross:
(1) The new Spe mechanic punishes heavily the opponent if its pokemon is weak to Metagross coverage coming from 110 base Spe upon megaevolving, thus forcing switches. Keep in mind that with so many options you need to scout Metagross' moves and only then, you can use your "counter" wishing you have it at high HP. Too much kindness in the transition to SUMO is a bad thing for Metagross.
(2) Terrains add another level of unpredictability to the table. Grass Terrain even halves the power of opposing Earthquakes. Misty Terrain protects Metagross by status (this is important for a fast sweeper) and Psychic/Electric Terrain are way useful with the right coverage move. Terrains are quite valuable in this metagame because their setters are so good.
(3) It doesn't seems that broken because Greninja (both formes) exists with its STAB Dark Pulse and are so strong that Metagross seems only "good". This reflefts how strong this thing is. Having Dugtrio around also helps, but remember that this thing was suspect worthy and almost banned (just to underline that we have some borderline broken monsters to keep in check other powerful things). STAB Bullet Punch heps to deal with faster target anyway.

====> it restricts teambuilding too much for a OU-worthy pokemon. The centralisation the OU can accept is that one provided by Landorus-T: easily splashable, but easily counterable. Mega Metagross is easily splashable, but hard to counter properly.

 

[burntclaw]

I don’t think metagross is broken. A huge but significant hinderance to Mega Metagross is that it suffers horribly from 4MSS- Lose out on a specific coverage move and it struggles to a handful of Pokemon. In addition, while it’s true that it has amazing bulk, it is incredibly easy to wear down throughout a match since it has 0 reliable recovery (chip damage from it switching into attacks, spikes, rocks, iron barbs, rough skin) and be revenge killed by plenty of Pokemon (koko, scarf chomp and landorus, and ash greninja are all relatively common offensive pokemon. notably, ash greninja OHKOs with dark pulse. dugtrio out speeds, traps and KOs it after prior damage or just outright with tectonic rage if it choses to run that, and bullet punch only 2HKOs). There are also many common pokemon that 1v1 it: volcarona, excadrill, landorus if it has gotten off intimidate, hippo, etc) Also, it does have quite a few defensive checks, contrary to what people seem to be suggesting- mega scizor (metagross has to run hp fire in order to beat it, which means it will have to sacrifice another valuable coverage moveslot when it already suffers severely from 4MSS) which can chip at it with a slow u turn and bring in an offensive check, forcing it out, physically defensive skarmory (it’s only 3HKO’ed by thunder punch, and Metagross has to be under electric terrain to 2HKO it, which is rather situational) which can roost stall or phaze it/set hazards, and physically defensive tangrowth, which is extremely common right now and rightfully so, is only 3HKO’ed by ice punch and chips at it with earthquake/hp fire or put it to sleep and heals off with regenerator. additionally, there are a handful of pokemon that hard wall it if it loses out on coverage moves (re-emphasizing my point of it’s problem with 4MSS): rotom-W walls it completely if it lacks zen headbutt, gains momentum with volt switch or burn something, heatran walls it if it lacks earthquake/hammer arm, ferrothorn if w/o hammer arm and chips at it with iron barbs/leech seed and can set up hazards, etc. point is, depending on what it runs, there are always reliable defensive and offensive checks to it. people keep bringing up the terrains and how metagross can use those terrains to get past it’s defensive checks but I don’t think this is all that relevant, it is also situational for metagross to be under a specific terrain at the specifically correct time, and in addition, terrains affect all pokemon. This is all not to say that it isn’t a good pokemon: yes, it is one of the best pokemon in the tier- I’m just saying that it's not outright broken because it suffers from crucial flaws and there are plenty of reliable methods of checking it on all types of teams.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I think the point he's trying to make is that you have to extend the argument both ways. The manner by which Meta's counters are invalidated is hax, and you can also extend that both ways. I think you're overhyping the degree to which Meta muscles past its answers, despite agreeing with you that Metagross is a tremendous burden on the metagame.

I wouldn't say I'm "overhyping" it. I am however, explaining why his original point is shaky. There's many reasons as to why I feel Megagross should go, but the only thing that I had seen against a ban was what ABR and what everyone else parroted, so, I explained why I felt it is terrible reasoning. Having Psychic terrain up is not "hax". Having Electric terrain up is not "hax". The only mon Megagross has to rely on hax to beat its "counter" in any given scenario is Scizor. So, even if that were his point, which I don't think it was at all, that "invalidates" one of my statements. By the way in which he had to move goal posts is a sentiment of his stance, maybe it's just in my eyes.

I will say, this idea that "well it's what gamefreak wanted" is absolutely atrocious. Also, absolutely nowhere, has anyone said that Megagross doesn't get chipped away at, so I don't get why we are feeling the need to harp on it so much. Of course it can be chipped away at, but that's a freaking terrible reason for something to stay. Give me something that will actually change my mind. This is some, he who should not be mentioned, line of thinking. The point that I thought was made abundantly clear is that being worn down is a terrible reason for something to stay. It always has been and always will be. Same with having counters/checks. Sun king pretty much summed up the impact that Megagross has had on the tier. Despite these "flaws". How can we sit here and acknowledge the unhealthy impact Megagross has on the tier, but say that it being whittled and having counters means it should stay? I don't get it.

I want some clarification, because what I've read so far (correct me if I'm wrong, I legitimately want something or someone to convince me otherwise):
It has 4mss
It can be worn down
It has counters, even if they are shaky
It promotes "proactive play" as long as I avoid how unhealthy of a Pokemon it is currently

Is this not stated every single suspect, and more often than not dismissed as grasping at straws? The only real difference I'm seeing is recognizable names are saying it now.

I'm not going to sit here and lie and say Megagross is impossible to eliminate, beats the entirety of the metagame, and does it all alone. Because clearly that isn't the case. I can recognize where its negatives are. But what I want is for these people on the anti ban side to convince me of how these negatives I mentioned above outweigh the positives, because in my eyes, the positives FAR outweigh the negatives. I mean, we can dismiss arguments to subjectivity and call it a day, but I'd like to think that we can get an actual discussion going.

 

[Avant Heim]

It's time to finally talk about this thing

Metagross Mega is a very controversal pokémon,it got suspect in the begining of ORAS,and it wasn't banned.But the transaction between generations was been kind to Metagross,with the introduction of the tapus and their terrains and the fact that now mega evolutions get their buffs immediately after mega evolving gives metagross lots of opportunities.

Looking at his status,145 base atk+Tough Claws is a deadly combo(calcs in the end of the post),150 base def and an good speed tier,at 110(can speed tie with Latios and Gengar).This Pokémon has everything going for it

It's movepoll is also decent,with the likes of:Meteor Mash,Zen Headbutt,Pursuit,Hammer Arm,Thunder Punch,Ice Punch,Bullet Punch,Earthquake,Hidden Power fire,Stealth Rock,Agility and even some funky things like Grass Knot and Explosion

Pokémon like Bronzong and Rotom-W,that can "wall" Mega Metagross have to be Careful when switching,because they can land on a Hammer Arm(Bronzong) or in a Zen Headbutt(Rotom-W)

Overall:Mega Metagross is an incredible force in the metagame.Not only it's fairy type's worse nightmare,but it can play aroud it's checks,and it's ban chance is high

calcs

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini in Electric Terrain: 260-308 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 127-151 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash in Psychic Terrain: 192-226 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Electric Terrain: 113-133 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4- SpA Metagross-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Scizor-Mega: 144-172 (41.9 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

 

[Uberkong]

I don't mean to oversimplify the issue, but I think the biggest reason to avoid banning on Metagrossite is the multiple options for practical elimination. There are three methods of trapping in the OU metagame (Magnezone, Dugtrio, Pursuit Trapping), and Metagross is vulrenable to all of them. Scarf Magnezone can trap, volt switch out, and then come back in to finish M-Metagross off with a tiny bit of pre-existing chip damage. Lure Magnezone can be effective as well with an air balloon + magnet rise, although this would require scouting the set for reliable elimination. Dugtrio puts Metagross in range of any Choice Scarfer; with a Focus Sash, Dugtrio beats metagross 1v1 the majority of the time since a Bullet Punch set isn't quite as viable as 4 attacks on most team builds. Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Life Orb Weavile both fail to OHKO Metagross with Pursuit, but pressure it immensely once it has some chip damage on it. Lastly, I would like to give a special mention to Pursuit M-Scizor as the most effective means of eliminating Metagross, which helps relieve pressure off Fairy-Type teammates that struggle with M-Metagross's presence.

I totally agree that M-Metagross is a top-tier threat, and certainly something that must be accounted for at teambuilding. It's presence is somewhat centralizing for sure, but I think that there is a plenty of counterplay in the practical elimination means I mention above, as well as status spreaders such as M-Sableye, Rotom-W, and Mew. I think that I am leaning towards No Ban for these reasons, but would love to hear further arguments.

 

[Morningstar]

I'm of the opinion that a pokemon can be too versatile, and that 4MSS is not a weakness for two reasons.

• a pokemon is not meant to solo the opponent's teams, that is why both players are allowed 6 pokemon at max. Part of clever play is building the team so that one teammate can cover another teammate's weaknesses. This is why cores are important.
• Conversely, not being able to use a certain moves does not prevent the opponent from assuming the worse (in this case that it does). To the opponent's its a type of Scrodenger's Cat. The opponent simultaneously has and does not have the right move for countering as far as they know. Which means that they have to scout or assume and act based on the assumption, risking getting KO if they guess wrong. The Mind game potential was also why Bronzong for example had its two abilities. That itself is not a problem, (Meloetta, Zoroark and the aforementioned Bronzong are still OU or lower despite the mind game potential and even Silvally is in the same boat) but most of these pokemon don't have Metagross's Bulk and Speed on top of that.

I'm abstaining from the vote, but I just want to point out that most of the time 4MSS is a strength, not a weakness. And that Pokemon had been banned and suspected for being too unpredictable before (see Greninja)

 

[MSC Knightmare]

I'm not going to have the time to ladder enough to get a vote, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in there.

I want to take a look at the pros and cons of Megagross, and try to weigh both sides to make an evaluation.

Pros:

Massive movepool means Megagross can be easily customized to fit just about any team

Because of this, it can wallbreak, sweep, or even set Stealth Rock for teams that can't find another setter

It abuses every terrain in the game, meaning it can fit quite well on even more teams

Pretty solid stats all around mean that Megagross isn't noticeably weak, frail, or slow. In fact, Tough Claws means that it is hitting quite hard with its contact moves, and when you consider that Megagross is very hard to OHKO, it means that Megagross can put in work against all kinds of team archetypes

Thanks to new Mega mechanics, it gets a bit more mileage out of its very good speed tier

Cons:

That same movepool Megagross has gives it 4 move slot syndrome. If it doesn't run coverage for a certain threat(s), it will be walled by said threat (No Thunder Punch means you're walled by Skarm, no EQ means Jirachi walls you, no Ice Punch means Lando always wins, etc)

One of the most common Megas in the game, Scizor, takes all of Megagross' hits extremely well unless it runs the super niche HP Fire.

Having no recovery and being unable to hold Leftovers somewhat depreciates Megagross' great bulk, since it can be easily worn down through residual damage

Steel/Psychic is a pretty bad typing both offensively and defensively and only contributes to Megagross' 4mss, but it does have the bright side of allowing it to properly utilize Psychic Terrain

Ultimately, I think the pros heavily outweigh the cons, but I don't think that is enough for me to say banning it would necessarily be a good thing. I put Megagross on the same level as Chomp and Lando, in that you are having to think about it a lot when teambuilding, but not because it is broken, simply because it is really, really good and is very splashable, meaning it will appear on a lot of different teambuilds. For that reason, I would err on the "No Ban" side.

 

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

Thank God this is being suspected. Already a threat in Gen 6 but it has been amplified even more in Gen 7 with the Mega Evolution buff and terrains to abuse, and I think Gen 7 has been a little too kind to it.

It's counterplay is extremely limited. There's Mega Scizor but it can't do anything back to Megameta without spending lots of turns setting up SD and recovering, and keep in mind that Mega Metagross has teammates, so it can take advantage of that passivity. Even then HP Fire Megameta is a thing. There's Skarmory, but is that going to do anything back either? (0 Atk Skarmory Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 25-30 (8.3 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever) (0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 38-45 (12.6 - 14.9%) -- possible 7HKO) and Gross can do hefty damage to it with Thunder Punch or HP Fire, and when in Electric Terrain Thunder Punch hits even harder. Only Physically Defensive Tangrowth handles Metagross well (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO) and even then there's Ice Punch. Ice Punch hits Landorus-Therian as well.

You might be saying "oh 4MSS it either loses to Skarmory or Tangrowth depending on the elemental punch move!" Well, about that:
1. When you see Mega Metagross in the Team Preview, you don't know the set! This allows it to create pressure and guessing games for stall.
2. Metagross has teammates. Its "counters" are pretty passive and can be taken advantage of, and that's only assuming it didn't bring the right move to the match.

I briefly mentioned terrains a couple times earlier, and they really do contribute to Mega Metagross's effectiveness. Now I'm talking about Psychic Terrain. Psychic Terrain boosted Zen Headbutt hits very hard and allows it to bypass Rotom-Wash, as well as deal big blows to the opposing team in general. HP Fire Tapu Lele is a pretty good partner for Mega Metagross anyway considering it deals with Mega Scizor.

So, that's how stall deals with it. That's out of the way. But what about offense? Greninja-Ash is a good check, sure. Tapu Koko is somewhat shaky because Thunderbolt only does 70% if Megameta is a full health, and Tapu Koko is killed by Earthquake. Only Focus Sash variants of Dugtrio are able to kill it when Megameta is at full health..... and that's only non Bullet Punch variants. And Megameta also can get past most scarfers. Keldeo 2HKOs with Hydro Pump only to be OHKOed by Zen Headbutt. Nihilego is flat out walled. There is Scarf Garchomp though.

However, despite all of this, I don't think offense has too much trouble dealing with it, but my latest paragraph was just to prove that Mega Metagross is certainly capable of handling it. I just think that overall, the Pokemon is too centralizing, exerting great pressure on stall and being difficult to prepare for. Its versatility is too much. It's a pretty unhealthy Pokemon in the OU tier. For all of this, I think that it needs to go.

Pro-Ban

 

[Seamus Eso]

Mega Metagross is probably the suspect with the narrowest pro-ban / no ban line, and after much I thinking, I've come to the conclusion that this pokemon deserves to be banned. There's a lot of repeatitive arguments and multiple flawed ones from both sides, especially the ones involving "wearing down". I'll list the reasons why it should be banned from the tier

- First of all, it's speed tier, typing and incredible bulk for an offensive threat alongside it's power and coverage makes it too strong to deal with. It has enough power and coverage to OHKO or 2HKO majority of the tier and is capable of doing 40% chunks to even potential checks such as Skarmory and Slowbro and possibly beating them with electric terrain support. It can also blow back pokemon such Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Defensive Landorus-T, Gliscor, etc with pretty standard coverage moves and those are the premiere defensive options of the tier. Putting less viable mons such as Hippo, Mega Bro, Alomomola etc aside, Tangrowth, Mega Scizor, and Helmet Skarm are pretty much the only reliable answers. And needless to say pretty much everything else is at least 2HKOed by one of it's 6 coverage moves, and most of the mons which can threaten to KO it are one shot.

Now that we have established a picture of Mega-Meta's destructive capabilities, let's take into account it's insane bulk, base 110 speed from turn 1 and defensive typing. This leaves very, VERY little options to revenge kill Mega Metagross. I would like to call out ABR on his paragraph

Offensively, there are definitely some good countermeasures to Metagross, whether it be via revenge killing or winning 1v1. The best revenge killers are Greninja and Dugtrio, but many other pokemon can revenge it if it's at slightly less than full. Some of these include Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Gengar, and Tapu Koko. As for pokemon that pretty much always 1v1 but are not traditional revenge killers or switchins, there are plenty. Just going through OU-relevant pokemon, there's Charizard (either), Marowak, Mawile, Mew, Mimikyu, Sableye, and Volcarona, to name some of them.

This is very faulty as Greninja is the only "reliable" revenge killing option. Dugtrio can't kill it if it loses Sash or if Mega Meta carries Bullet Punch. Charizards, AloWak and Volcarona are extremely situational answers as soon as rocks are up they lose, not to mention they have to be in full health, a very big drawback for offensive answers. How the heck are Sableye and Mew offensive answers? Mew can only beat it if it's defensive with WoW. Offensive Mew versions can't do enough damage back to be an answer. Mimkyu is the only reliable 1v1 counter play out of them and Mega Mawile to an extent.

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 192-228 (63.7 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Avg damage: 70%]
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Avg damage: 84% ]
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 242-288 (80.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Avg damage: 88% ]
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [ Avg damage: 74% ]
252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega in Electric Terrain: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Avg damage: 71%]

Of course, you mentioned them as revenge killers after slight prior damage. Where is that coming from? You are relying on a lot of external factors such Mega Metagross switching in some of your attacks, Spikes, Rocky Helmet, Iron barbs etc. I agree that Mega Metagross is very prone to Spikes, Helmet, and Barbs but this shows just how much you have to "dance around" Mega Metagross to even ATTEMPT revenge kill Mega Metagross. Add that to it's offensive capabilities mentioned before and you're likely to lose 1 or 2 mons or at least get them considerably weakened before you can try to revenge kill most of the time.


- It's defensive answers and the limited revenge killers are extremely easy to take advantage of. Offensive answers are mostly scarfers which are not only easy to switch into, but also prone to being taken advantage of by a powerful offensive threat or a set up sweeper. Two of it's main defensive answers, Helmet Skarm and Mega Scizor can be trapped by Magnezone and Mega Scizor is very hazard weak without any form of support in Lefties or Regen.

Addressing, ABR's post, the revenge killers mentioned for Mega Metagross need prior damage and they are primarily scarfers which are easy to take advantage of. Mawile's Sucker Punch loses merit if your opponent switches. This shows MMeta has only one "GOOD offensive countermeasure" being Greninja. And the non-traditional 1v1 RKillers are far from plenty and actually very scarce and unreliable in the metagame.

- One of the main reason M-Meta is so much better in SM than in ORAS is the metagame shift and the large number of pokemon introduced that lose to it. Mega Metagross's sheer bulk and typing gives it a shit ton of opportunities to directly switch in and force something out, too many opportunities given it's power and difficulty to revenge kill. And again, a quick look at the viability ranking thread will show you just how strong Mega Metagross's 1v1 match up is. This means Mega Metagross can be brought out on free switches or double switches very easily and force out some of the most common pokemon in the Metagame. Thus, It's a pokemon that holds considerable offensive power and is hard to revenge kill AND has an easy time coming in.


- Tech+Other Options: Mega Metagross is basically the tech god. Mega Metagross can do it's job well enough with just Meteor Mash+Hammer Arm/EQ+Elemental Punch. The 4th move slot is not only up for grabs for another coverage but also gives it room to run techs without sacrificing too much. It can run HP Fire for Sciz, it can run bullet Punch to put a health cap on Scarf Gengar, Koko, protean gren, it can run Agility to sweep late game and can even afford to run moves like Sub or Stealth Rock.

Thus, I feel MMeta should be banned.

 

[mmm6]

Playing long time with Mega Metagross meta people should know how to counter this thing, like others said, def Zapdos, Celesteela, Tangrowth, Toxa, Skarmory, MScizor (who run with HP Fire, waste of slot) or even Rocky Helmet Lando/Hippowdown can beat this, all good teams have one of these mons in squad to counter wallbreaker like MGross + always cheap damage from rocks/spikes and scarfers/faster mons to revenge kill, lack of recovery and always dmg on the switch when hazards is on shows that M Gross is not that horrible to beat like others said, who stays on Ice Punch when you expect this? people even switch into Heatran to scout moveset and back to def/scarf Lando, in my opinion beating and know how to play vs M Gross shows ur skill and how good u are

i would vote for No Ban

 

[Reviloja753]

I'm pretty much with Finchinator on this one. I'm so glad that this monster is getting a suspect. Earlier in the week, I made a post in the discussion thread stating my thoughts on Mega Metagross. While I was wrong about certain things (in my defense, I have not seen Zygarde much in OU this generation), some things I still stand by, as one thing that should be mentioned with Mega Scizor is that in it of itself has to compete with Mega Metagross for the mega slot. I also personally like to compare MegaGross with Kartana, as they are both fast physical sweepers that have moves that could help break walls. Kartana is limited by a miserable Special Defense, mediocre defensive typing, and crummy HP. MegaGross has decent Special Defense, great defensive typing, and an okay HP. Also, MegaGross has little counterplay and said counterplay can usually take up two slots on your team (and potentially your mega slot) just to deal with it. This falls under centralization, so I would vote Ban.

 

[StraightEdgeNexus]

I feel the 4MSS argument is totally bull, with some good team building it can perfectly sum up its coverage and patch it's weaknesses for eg. Magnezone will allow it to forgo tpunch. Also Metagross finds itself spamming meteor mash anyway. Offensive teams struggle to take its STABs, the ones that can take get bopped by coverage. The ones that can take its attacks can't threaten it back. Scizor can also get chipped by spikes and rocks (Scizor invites skarmory, so setting them up isn't hard) and rocky helmet users to the point where it can't check Metagross anymore. The Scizor point is from my experience as a mega Scizor user on ladder

There's Skarmory, but is that going to do anything back either? (0 Atk Skarmory Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 25-30 (8.3 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever) (0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 38-45 (12.6 - 14.9%) -- possible 7HKO) and Gross can do hefty damage to it with Thunder Punch or HP Fire, and when in Electric Terrain Thunder Punch hits even harder. .

Skarmory can hit back with counter after tanking a thunderpunch. But yeah good players know better

 

[BlueLobster]

Last gen, I thought that Meta was absolutely fine. This gen, however, I think that Mega Metagross has become very unhealthy for the meta and is borderline broken. Let me outline why:

1. Mega speed buff.

Meta no longer needs one turn with a mediocre base 70 speed to mega evolve, making common pokes that would stop it mega-ing before (offensive Lando-T, non-scarf Garchomp etc) are now a liability V Gross as it just destroys them, provided it has the required move (ice punch Gross is common enough). Even if it doesn't, you are forced to switch if you need that mon because otherwise you risk the likely scenario of getting destroyed. While on paper this is not much, in practise it is very important, as offensive teams could normally pressure Gross enough so that it stuggled to mega or at least get chip on it to revenge it with a mon like Bisharp or Talonflame, which leads me to my next point...

2. A lot of it's gen 6 checks are less relevant now.

Due to the pressures of the gen 6 meta, nerfs etc, Gross lost a lot of common revengers/switch ins from Gen 6, including the aforementioned 2 as well as mons like Slowbro, Hippowdon, etc. who are now rare or completely irrelevant. Also, specific sets which beat Gross (think scarf Lando-T) are now almost dead, which further makes Gross a bigger threat than it was then. Yes we now have things like Greninja and Tapu Koko who pressure Gross, but mons like Koko can't OHKO it and, unlike in gen 6, it is a lot harder to get chip on it.

3. It has better support mons than last gen.

With the tapus benefitting Gross with their terrain, Gross + Tapu is a potent combination which can allow Gross to get past some of it's most notable answers, like def Tangrowth (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth in Psychic Terrain: 177-208 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock). Another thing to remember is that Lele also blocks priority for Gross, making it immune to Bisharp's sucker punch or Mimikyu's shadow sneak (which doesn't even OHKO at +2). Gross never had such brilliant support last gen which would invalidate your check unless you played terrain wars well. Koko can also support it well with electric terrain powering up thunderpunch to edge past checks such as Skarm or the rarer Slowbro (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Electric Terrain: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery / 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 238-282 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). If you're feeling really weird, even Bulu can support it by protecting it from EQ if you have hammer arm Gross, making some of it's best revenge killers like ScarfChomp completely invalidated. Also, Magnezone is wonderful support for EQ Gross so that Ferro can be removed and Scizor is pressured to U-Turn every turn unless it can outspeed your Mag (which again pressures it in the teambuilder, which is possibly even worse).

It is for these reasons why I believe Gross has been pushed over the edge this gen, and really does need to go. There's almost no reason not to use it on offense, because it has great power and defensive utility and is ridiculously hard to check, particularly with the amazing support your chosen Tapu gives it, along with Mag. Yes it has good revengers, such as Dugtrio, Gren (only if it has D-Pulse, which protean doesn't always have), and Koko, but very few switch ins, which pressures fat builds a lot and it's speed + bulk give offense teams trouble as well, particularly with bullet punch to pick off weakened mons. I don't like banning mons, but I feel like there is little choice here but to ban Gross for the meta's benefit.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Playing long time with Mega Metagross meta people should know how to counter this thing, like others said, def Zapdos, Celesteela, Tangrowth, Toxa, Skarmory, MScizor (who run with HP Fire, waste of slot) or even Rocky Helmet Lando/Hippowdown can beat this, all good teams have one of these mons in squad to counter wallbreaker like MGross + always cheap damage from rocks/spikes and scarfers/faster mons to revenge kill, lack of recovery and always dmg on the switch when hazards is on shows that M Gross is not that horrible to beat like others said, who stays on Ice Punch when you expect this? people even switch into Heatran to scout moveset and back to def/scarf Lando, in my opinion beating and know how to play vs M Gross shows ur skill and how good u are

i would vote for No Ban

Counters, you say?

Zapdos is 2HKOed by Ice Punch after SR.
Celesteela and Skarmory are both hit by Thunder Punch, though the latter can avoid the 2HKO if it's very healthy (does ~40% min).
Defensive Tangrowth still needs to be very high health to tank two Ice Punches, and switching in on Meteor Mash still risks an Attack boost. Also using the Defensive spread means you aren't using AV.
Wow, I didn't know Toxapex was a Mega Metagross check, let alone a counter.
Mega Scizor is the closest thing to a counter that Mega Metagross has, and even then HP Fire exists as a lure. I don't know why you dismiss the move when it's been brought up in this thread and throughout SM discussion up to this point.
If Rocky Helmet Landorus-T is your Metagross check then you deserve to lose.
No one runs Hippowdon.

Also your example of prediction applies to the Metagross user as well. Who's to say I can't Ice Punch the most obvious Landorus-T switch in the world? You are literally proving the pro-ban people right by showing how you need the Metagross user to be braindead in order to beat it.

There are reasonable anti-ban arguments, but then we have this.

 

[Virizain]

Zapdos is 2HKOed by Ice Punch after SR.
Celesteela and Skarmory are both hit by Thunder Punch, though the latter can avoid the 2HKO if it's very healthy (does ~40% min).
Defensive Tangrowth still needs to be very high health to tank two Ice Punches, and switching in on Meteor Mash still risks an Attack boost. Also using the Defensive spread means you aren't using AV.
Wow, I didn't know Toxapex was a Mega Metagross check.
Mega Scizor is the closest thing to a counter that Mega Metagross has, and even then HP Fire exists as a lure. I don't know why you dismiss the move when it's been brought up in this thread and throughout SM discussion up to this point.
If Rocky Helmet Landorus-T is your Metagross check then you deserve to lose.
No one runs Hippowdon.

Also your example of prediction applies to the Metagross user as well. Who's to say I can't Ice Punch the most obvious Landorus-T switch in the world? You are literally proving the pro-ban people right by showing how you need the Metagross user to be braindead in order to beat it.

There are reasonable anti-ban arguments, but then we have this.

I wouldn't deny any of these as Mega Metagross counters. Toxapex walls Metagross that lack Zen-Headbutt, narrowly avoiding a 2HKO from Earthquake and Thunder Punch but gets steamed if it runs ZH or has access to Electric Terrain support. Defensive Tangrowth and Zapdos can't deal Metagross if its behind Psychic Terrain or if they get chipped, but they still check Mega Metagross 1v1. If Landorus can get the intimidate off, it can sufficiently weaken Metagross until it can get picked off by pretty much everything, and it hard checks any Metagross that lacks Ice Punch. HP fire can't even 2hko Mega Scizor without a chunk of special attack investment or a good deal of prior damage, its only used situationally and you lose out on all the other coverage options metagross has to offer in favor of Hidden power. Hippowdown and Mega Slowbro are pretty rare and irrelevant, but that doesn't mean you can dismiss them entirely.

As for prediction, scouting for Metagross's last two moves are normal and effective ways for you to come up with counterplay for Mega Metagross later on. You send out Rotom-Wash to eat Meteor Mash, then switch out to see if it has Zen Headbutt. Mega Metagross has counters, but you can't just dismiss every single one of them and then call it broken.

 

[Sun King]

I wouldn't say I'm "overhyping" it. I am however, explaining why his original point is shaky. There's many reasons as to why I feel Megagross should go, but the only thing that I had seen against a ban was what ABR and what everyone else parroted, so, I explained why I felt it is terrible reasoning. Having Psychic terrain up is not "hax". Having Electric terrain up is not "hax". The only mon Megagross has to rely on hax to beat its "counter" in any given scenario is Scizor. So, even if that were his point, which I don't think it was at all, that "invalidates" one of my statements. By the way in which he had to move goal posts is a sentiment of his stance, maybe it's just in my eyes.

I will say, this idea that "well it's what gamefreak wanted" is absolutely atrocious. Also, absolutely nowhere, has anyone said that Megagross doesn't get chipped away at, so I don't get why we are feeling the need to harp on it so much. Of course it can be chipped away at, but that's a freaking terrible reason for something to stay. Give me something that will actually change my mind. This is some, he who should not be mentioned, line of thinking. The point that I thought was made abundantly clear is that being worn down is a terrible reason for something to stay. It always has been and always will be. Same with having counters/checks. Sun king pretty much summed up the impact that Megagross has had on the tier. Despite these "flaws". How can we sit here and acknowledge the unhealthy impact Megagross has on the tier, but say that it being whittled and having counters means it should stay? I don't get it.

I want some clarification, because what I've read so far (correct me if I'm wrong, I legitimately want something or someone to convince me otherwise):
It has 4mss
It can be worn down
It has counters, even if they are shaky
It promotes "proactive play" as long as I avoid how unhealthy of a Pokemon it is currently

Is this not stated every single suspect, and more often than not dismissed as grasping at straws? The only real difference I'm seeing is recognizable names are saying it now.

I'm not going to sit here and lie and say Megagross is impossible to eliminate, beats the entirety of the metagame, and does it all alone. Because clearly that isn't the case. I can recognize where its negatives are. But what I want is for these people on the anti ban side to convince me of how these negatives I mentioned above outweigh the positives, because in my eyes, the positives FAR outweigh the negatives. I mean, we can dismiss arguments to subjectivity and call it a day, but I'd like to think that we can get an actual discussion going.

My apologies, I really poorly worded that. You're right, it's not ALL hax. It was late at night and I had been up 24 hours typing a paper for finals so my thoughts sort of got mixed up.

What I meant was that virtually all arguments through which Metagross beats its checks/counters have to be taken under the context that they're also applicable to the other side. For example, hax getting an Attack boost for Metagross, or a crit, can also happen against Metagross via a Scald burn against it or a crit making it vulnerable to something else.

Terrains can help and hinder Metagross. Grassy can weaken Earthquake against Metagross and it can weaken Metagross' Earthquake; Psychic can increase power of its Zen Headbutt, but it can invalidate Bullet Punch sets; Misty can protect it from status, but it can also eliminate paralysis or freezing from the punch moves.

Metagross can be worn down, and it can wear down opposing teams.

All of this is really important to note for this suspect, as a lot of pro and anti ban arguments can get really carried away in the theorymonning of situations. For one, I actually agree with the anti-banners that Metagross isn't BROKEN. I do think, however, it's unhealthy for the tier because it warps the metagame around itself to a high degree and reduces the skill and knowledge required to build a team. It's because of Metagross (and Greninja) that the metagame is so stale, because every team MUST have dedicated ways to beat Metagross' bulk AND outpace 110 speed OR hard wall it (which only stall can do).

 

[preserve]

People keep saying there is "counterplay", but it's really not counterplay when Metagross is given the opportunity to remove them. It's easy to say "just switch in Tangrowth" and leave it at that. But that doesn't at all consider the fact that in Psychic Terrain, Zen Headbutt 2hko's Defensive Tangrowth (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth in Psychic Terrain: 177-208 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock). Or after a Meteor Mash boost, Tangrowth no longer can reliably counter as Meteor Mash 2hkos. It's no longer a counter, and lets not act like that's some near impossible situation that would never take place. The same goes for Electric Terrain. Giving Megagross the ability to run right through Skarmory (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Electric Terrain: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) and. . . lolbro (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro in Electric Terrain: 238-282 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). These aren't unlikely scenarios. These are VERY common scenarios in a meta with the Tapu's freaking everywhere. Many of these mons are no longer "counters" the second Metagross gets the attack buff from Meteor Mash or the terrains are up. So, your "counterplay" is no longer "counterplay". Your counter, becomes a check, and shitty one at that. Which means you now have to rely on hard hitting scarfers that can't be oneshot, but can OHKO in return, or have to run a Duggy with groundium Z or Sash + Sucker Punch. What great "counterplay". Pshaw, that's not at all broken. . .

It's easy to say Tangrowth "walls" it in a vacuum. But, in reality, that isn't the case. The only surefire way to counter STAB Boltbeam Megagross is mZor, and even that has a hard time beating it at +1 with any prior damage. Even then, HP Fire, although it sounds hilarious, is capable of removing the one thing that can counter it 80% of the time. So, if you're going to bring up this "counterplay" argument, 1, actually explain why those things are counters, and expect to be told why they are checks in many scenarios. And 2, stop looking at these things through a vacuum. There is an entire metagame with 70+ completely viable Pokemon in it. Many of which allow Megagross to remove these "counter measures".

If it isn't blatantly obvious, ban this stupid thing.

EDIT: The meta gaining more problems with the exclusion of a 'mon has never been a viable argument for something staying. Let's cool it on that. I mean, the fact that these are 3 of the comments on the first page is showing there is very little in defense of Metagross. If you're going to defend Metagross, defend it. Don't take the slippery slope approach. It's a problem now. We deal with it now.

You are wrongfully equating counterplay here to meaning having counters which shouldn't be what suspects aim to do.

As for metagross itself, I think it's quite powerful but not ban worthy. The Terrain's do make metagross powerful, however terrains are temporary and can always be changed by other terrain users. Hp fire is pretty bad on metagross and shouldn't even discussed in my opinion. It's similar to when terrakion used hp ice in gen 5.

Also along with few defensive checks, there are also a few offensive checks like mons that are faster, for example. koku and greninja and scarfers that can outspeed and damage it or kill it.

 

[mmm6]

Counters, you say?

Zapdos is 2HKOed by Ice Punch after SR.
Celesteela and Skarmory are both hit by Thunder Punch, though the latter can avoid the 2HKO if it's very healthy (does ~40% min).
Defensive Tangrowth still needs to be very high health to tank two Ice Punches, and switching in on Meteor Mash still risks an Attack boost. Also using the Defensive spread means you aren't using AV.
Wow, I didn't know Toxapex was a Mega Metagross check, let alone a counter.
Mega Scizor is the closest thing to a counter that Mega Metagross has, and even then HP Fire exists as a lure. I don't know why you dismiss the move when it's been brought up in this thread and throughout SM discussion up to this point.
If Rocky Helmet Landorus-T is your Metagross check then you deserve to lose.
No one runs Hippowdon.

Also your example of prediction applies to the Metagross user as well. Who's to say I can't Ice Punch the most obvious Landorus-T switch in the world? You are literally proving the pro-ban people right by showing how you need the Metagross user to be braindead in order to beat it.

There are reasonable anti-ban arguments, but then we have this.

ok, follow with ur arguments:

Celesteela can cheap with Flamethrower or Fire Blast and take almost 50% hp, or without TPunch can Seed/Protect
Zapdos can Heat Wave or even para with Discharge so after this MGross is useless
Tang can Sleep Powder or cheap with EQ
Skarmory can even Counter and OHKO Mega Metagross when he use TPunch
No one runs with Hippo, yeah like people with HP Fire on MGross

all of this is not 100% counters, but even after ko u have damaged MGross with almost 50%hp and u can revenge kill with faster/scarf/trap mon or u-turn to have good mementum, and running with both punches on Gross is rare so i was not scared about that one M Gross can beat my all team

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

As for metagross itself, I think it's quite powerful but not ban worthy. The Terrain's do make metagross powerful, however terrains are temporary and can always be changed by other terrain users. Hp fire is pretty bad on metagross and shouldn't even discussed in my opinion. It's similar to when terrakion used hp ice in gen 5.

Also along with few defensive checks, there are also a few offensive checks like mons that are faster, for example. koku and greninja and scarfers that can outspeed and damage it or kill it.

'Few' suggests to me very extreme constraints on teambuilding, and in extreme cases certain mons that cannot realistically fit onto every archetype (see Pex offense back before the Mosa ban). Expecting otherwise only leads to a stale metagame, which is especially true in the case before us, where Gren (one of MGross's offensive checks) will likely get the boot itself (so there is less point listing it imo). I know that's a very basic way of putting it, but do you expect mons like Sciz-M/Tang/Hippo etc. to be plonked on every team for the rest of the meta if one plans NOT to abuse MGross? I don't.

 

[BoronicOrcane]

While Mega Metagross is certainly a powerful Pokemon, I think that banning it would cause a ripple that would make OU a worse tier.
I will be voting NO BAN
The first reason is that I don't believe that Metagross is overpowered. While it can run a lot of sets and moves, they all have their own counters. Mega Scizor can wall just about any set Metagross runs unless it includes the rare and overall unviable HPF, and even then Scizor can put up a fight. Marowak is onlt 2HKOed by EQ sets, Rotom and Slowbro can wall it without Zen Heatbutt and Thunder Punch respectively, defensive Tangrowth can wall non Ice Punch sets unless Metagross gets an attack boost from Meteor Mash, and there are a plethora of Pokemon that can efficiently revenge kill it.
The second reason is that with Metagross gone, Landorus-T would gain too much of a foothold in the OU. I've seen a Lando is just bout every suspect game I've played so far, and this is due to one of it's only checks being banned. Without something that is fast, viable, and has ice coverage, Landorus is just too overpowered and over centralizing. While having Lando in every team will most likely die down as time goes on, I don't see his usage dipping below 60%. You would also see an influx of Pokemon such Lele who are countered by the presence of Metagross.
Overall, I see Metagross as a keystone species in the OU ecosystem, and that he has to stay or else OU would change for the worse.

 

[Sun King]

Overall, I see Metagross as a keystone species in the OU ecosystem, and that he has to stay or else OU would change for the worse.

How? What is your rationale? What gets worse because we ban Metagross? How can you even know this? Have you played on the suspect ladder and found it significantly worse than the current meta?

Anyone that says OU will be worse with the ban of Metagrossite MUST answer all of these questions in order to even make a case for that line of rhetoric.

EDIT: Landorus has SO many answers outside of Metagross carrying Ice Punch; this is such a terrible argument. The reason Lando is on every team (it already WAS) is because it's such a good glue for teams. Literally answering Lando is as easy as HP Ice on anything with like a smidge of SpA.

 

[Toshiro46]

Arguments that aren't good anti-ban arguments:

4MSS - This as a whole is a pretty bullshit concept. Almost every mon in the game wants to run more than 4 moves. Megagross has the coverage for what he needs, and can fit it in 4 slots. His STABs are only resisted by 64 mons out of the 802 in the game (well, Marshadow isn't in the game yet). Out of those 64, the Bug/Steel types (of which Scizor is the only viable one), the Grass/Steel types (Ferro and Kartana), Bronzong, and Shedinja are the only mons not hit SE by EQ/Thunder Punch. If you want to hit those mons instead and miss out on a few others, you can run HP Fire or Hammer Arm. Ice Punch is another option for the pesky 4x weakness mons as well as Zapdos and Tangrowth. You can even forgo Zen Headbutt and get another coverage move for more SE hits. The point is that 4MSS is pretty dumb in general, but even if it wasn't, it wouldn't apply to Megagross (As an example, a mon that would be a better candidate for 4MSS is Mega Mawile, who wants Play Rough and Sucker Punch obviously, but needs better coverage like fire fang and thunder punch and knock off but also wants sub and SD and another STAB).

Weak Defensive Typing - I have yet to find a mixed steel typing that's weak defensively. Even something like rock/steel with one of the worst defensive types in the game and 2 4x weaknesses only has one weakness besides those and 8 resistances/1 immunity besides (two of them 4x); the same goes for ice/steel (another terrible defensive type in ice), with 2 4x weaknesses, one weakness besides that, and 8 resistances/1 immunity as well. Meanwhile, Megagross has one more weakness than either of them and crucially due to its great bulk no 4x weaknesses, but also has 9 resistances. That's not a weak defensive typing. A weak defensive typing is something like Rock/Ice (Aurorus), with double the weaknesses and less than half the resistances.

Weak Offensive Typing - Refer above to Metagross only hitting 64 pokemon for resisted damage with its STABs. Only 12 of them are OU. It can deal with the Steels on that list with Hammer Arm, EQ, or HP Fire, and it can deal with the few water, electric, and fire types (resisted by steel) with a secondary typing of psychic or dark (resisted by Psychic) with EQ or thunder punch (or hammer arm in the case of dark mons).

It has Checks - So does every mon, even the king of Ubers, PGroudon. More relevant, so did Aegislash, Pheromosa, Genesect, etc.

There's Counters - Bronzong and Hippowdon are irrelevant, Scizor is ganked by HPF, and RH Tang is 10% chip away from being 2HKOed and relies on Sleep Powder to shut megagross down.

No Recovery - 90% of the banned offensive threats also have no recovery and it never stopped them, and Megagross has insane bulk to work with unlike most of them.

It Can Be Trapped - Magnezone, Tyranitar, Muk, and Bisharp are all fucked by EQ. Dug is OHKOd without sash (and hello hazards) and can't OHKO in return without Z or Band. Pursuit Scizor has a host of its own issues.

It's a Mega - The main downside of most other megas in OU is that running them means you can't run Megagross. Being a Mega is less an issue for it.

Removing it would make the meta worse - Besides the absurdity of this idea, even if it were true it's not a viable antiban argument. We are here to determine if it is deserving of a ban, not whether or not the meta would be worse off without it.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

You are wrongfully equating counterplay here to meaning having counters which shouldn't be what suspects aim to do.

As for metagross itself, I think it's quite powerful but not ban worthy. The Terrain's do make metagross powerful, however terrains are temporary and can always be changed by other terrain users. Hp fire is pretty bad on metagross and shouldn't even discussed in my opinion. It's similar to when terrakion used hp ice in gen 5.

Also along with few defensive checks, there are also a few offensive checks like mons that are faster, for example. koku and greninja and scarfers that can outspeed and damage it or kill it.

Uh, I'm not getting this confused, apparently everyone else is as that is all that has been brought up as "counterplay". Other than "play smart" and "it has checks/'counters' " nothing as far as "counterplay" has been brought up. I mean someone brought up trapping as if it doesn't imply you had to sac a pokemon to bring in Zone which can't ohko and dies to EQ/hammer arm, or pursuit trap as megagross doesn't switch and blows you back. Which leaves you duggy, which can't ohko without groundium z and if sashed absolutely has to maintain its sash. That's not restraining at all. . . Not only that, you bring up the fact that terrains can be switched, I think that's amusing since while yes every tapu works very well with Megagross, literally none of them are willing to switch in for the sole purpose of changing the terrain. You realize how terrible of a thought process that is yes?

It has offensive checks? Thanks for letting me know. With this new found information I will now be voting no ban.

We can grasp at straws all day.

 

[Marigold]

Arguments that aren't good anti-ban arguments:

4MSS - This as a whole is a pretty bullshit concept. Almost every mon in the game wants to run more than 4 moves. Megagross has the coverage for what he needs, and can fit it in 4 slots. His STABs are only resisted by 64 mons out of the 802 in the game (well, Marshadow isn't in the game yet). Out of those 64, the Bug/Steel types (of which Scizor is the only viable one), the Grass/Steel types (Ferro and Kartana), Bronzong, and Shedinja are the only mons not hit SE by EQ/Thunder Punch. If you want to hit those mons instead and miss out on a few others, you can run HP Fire or Hammer Arm. Ice Punch is another option for the pesky 4x weakness mons as well as Zapdos and Tangrowth. You can even forgo Zen Headbutt and get another coverage move for more SE hits. The point is that 4MSS is pretty dumb in general, but even if it wasn't, it wouldn't apply to Megagross (As an example, a mon that would be a better candidate for 4MSS is Mega Mawile, who wants Play Rough and Sucker Punch obviously, but needs better coverage like fire fang and thunder punch and knock off but also wants sub and SD and another STAB).

Weak Defensive Typing - I have yet to find a mixed steel typing that's weak defensively. Even something like rock/steel with one of the worst defensive types in the game and 2 4x weaknesses only has one weakness besides those and 8 resistances/1 immunity besides (two of them 4x); the same goes for ice/steel (another terrible defensive type in ice), with 2 4x weaknesses, one weakness besides that, and 8 resistances/1 immunity as well. Meanwhile, Megagross has one more weakness than either of them and crucially due to its great bulk no 4x weaknesses, but also has 9 resistances. That's not a weak defensive typing. A weak defensive typing is something like Rock/Ice (Aurorus), with double the weaknesses and less than half the resistances.

Weak Offensive Typing - Refer above to Metagross only hitting 64 pokemon for resisted damage with its STABs. Only 12 of them are OU. It can deal with the Steels on that list with Hammer Arm, EQ, or HP Fire, and it can deal with the few water, electric, and fire types (resisted by steel) with a secondary typing of psychic or dark (resisted by Psychic) with EQ or thunder punch (or hammer arm in the case of dark mons).

It has Checks - So does every mon, even the king of Ubers, PGroudon. More relevant, so did Aegislash, Pheromosa, Genesect, etc.

There's Counters - Bronzong and Hippowdon are irrelevant, Scizor is ganked by HPF, and RH Tang is 10% chip away from being 2HKOed and relies on Sleep Powder to shut megagross down.

No Recovery - 90% of the banned offensive threats also have no recovery and it never stopped them, and Megagross has insane bulk to work with unlike most of them.

It Can Be Trapped - Magnezone, Tyranitar, Muk, and Bisharp are all fucked by EQ. Dug is OHKOd without sash (and hello hazards) and can't OHKO in return without Z or Band. Pursuit Scizor has a host of its own issues.

It's a Mega - The main downside of most other megas in OU is that running them means you can't run Megagross. Being a Mega is less an issue for it.

Removing it would make the meta worse - Besides the absurdity of this idea, even if it were true it's not a viable antiban argument. We are here to determine if it is deserving of a ban, not whether or not the meta would be worse off without it.

Is it possible to like a post several hundred thousand times? You pretty much hit a lot of "anti-ban" arguments on the head, but another one I've seen that makes no sense is...

"You can deal with it once you scout its moveset" - For one, you can deal with near everything once you know its moveset. This includes megagross, but it also includes tangrowth, zard y, volcarona, mew, etc... so it's pretty much a moot point. However, the more important second point... What cost do you take to figure out megagross' moveset? Often, it costs you at least one or more teammates getting worn down or outright ko'd just to figure out how to deal with the megagross, by which point it has already done its job as a wallbreaker to pave the way for a teammate's sweep. The fact that you have to "dance" around megagross, incurring large chips after large chips (thanks to tough claws) just to deal with it, is a testament to how little counterplay exists to stop megagross from doing its job. It is exactly this lack of counterplay and the many, many reasons already discussed that make me want to earn reqs and vote BAN.

 

[Careful]

The reasoning behind not banning Metagross is extremely weak. Scouting for 4MSS is terrible as MegaGross is still going to do plenty of damage to your scout without Protect, even then it's not hard to fish for attack boosts off of Meteor Mash, oh and let's not forget to mention the fact that there is only a small pool of obvious Pokemon that may or may not be able to counter Mega Metagross due to coverage. It's not even that hard to build a team to patch up the type that you can't hit and the Pokemon that wall Mega Metagross.

I think the most lolsy defense is in the OP because prediction does not make for a solid counter or check, a two way street means you could be screwed at team preview alone. I mean ffs lol Mew is brought up as a check, which as statistics show (http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/SM OU/index.html), Mew is #82 in OU usage, below Chandelure and even Snorlax. So we should resort to more obscure checks and counters now? This is exactly one of the reasons as to why Aegislash was banned a la Tiering Policy Framework (see: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/)

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) Important to note that it is a relative statement; a 200/200/200/200/200/200 BST Pokemon with standard movepool would be broken in a metagame where the average is say, 100/100/100/100/100/100, not where the average is 200/200/200/200/200/200
B.) Examples are mostly Pokemon and include strong Ubers like Kyogre, Groudon, and Arceus. These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.

and while Mew isn't necessarily that gimmicky, it also isn't that good. 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -- better hope WoW doesn't miss, Metagross doesn't switch, or the opponent doesn't have some kind of cleric.

Even offensive threats to an extent are lolsy, see Finchinator's explanation on the first page if you want to debate proper