Metagame np: SS DOU stage 0: Begin Again | Beat Up banned

Stratos

formerly Pwnemon
is a Tiering Contributor
In a similar vein to the beat up discussion i think we need to consider banning Weakness Policy. This is a little less obvious of a call than Beat Up, which is why it's taken us a few months instead of a few days, but I think it's one we need to make. Back when people were running this on Tyranitar it was fine but now that we've found the actual good abusers I think it's clear this shit is busted.

Dragapult, Togekiss, Excadrill and (yes) Slurpuff are all weak to priority, can boost their speed and sweep
Melmetal, Rhyperior, Necrozma, and Lapras can do the same in Trick Room

Unlike VGC, you aren't even limited to a single Weakness Policy; you can stack multiple complementary ones on a team and pick the one the opponent is weak to. Just of the people I know, talkingtree, qsns, and SMB all have brought double Policy to SPL. The Trick Room mons are skewed by the Gothitelle connection but we've seen enough games with WP being broken sans Goth that I think we should still get rid of this shit. I think this is more broken than Shadow Tag at the moment and should be prioritized. STag might still be broken with Parting Shot + more traditional setup sweepers but we can get to that next I think.

I really like what Demantoid said in his previous vote:
Strategies like Beat Up are only balanced when there is a significant opportunity cost to using the strategy which does not exist right now.
Like Beat Up, the opportunity cost is extremely low for Weakness Policy, just an item slot and a move on already good Pokemon. The risk / reward is insanely skewed. As Lunar said on Discord, it isn't fun when you only have to win a single turn to win the game.

There's also the restraint on teambuilding to consider. In Gen 7, being weak to Weakness Policy meant you were weak to Diancie. That isn't true in SS, I've listed eight extremely viable WP users that have kicked my ass and I'm sure that isn't all, so it's not like you just have to prep to shut down one thing. Max pokemon just hit too fucking hard at +2 to stomach their hits without Protect (which still hurts). The only real way to consistently avoid losing two to three Pokemon to Weakness Policy is Follow Me, and I don't want to put Kiss on every team.

At some point we have to ask how many bans are too many when it comes to banning things to save Dynamax—which is what we are obviously doing here—but I think Weakness Policy is a few clear cuts above other Dynamax strategies. The Pokemon doesn't have to spend a turn un-maxed to boost (leaving it vulnerable to receiving heavy damage before it maxes) or spend its limited max turns boosting like with Max Knuckle. The only comparables are Decorate, but then you're at least forced to run Alcremie, or Helping Hand, but then you're forced to sit there using it every turn at least. Neither of those have shown to be as consistently ridiculous as Weakness Policy yet.
 
Agree that Weakness Policy should go.

A super-effective hit on a Dynamaxed mon is just a regular hit, which makes the opportunity cost of self-procing Weakness Policy very low, especially if your procer is a weak-ish mon like Hitmontop or (in a probable future state) Aqua Jet Blastoise.

In Gen 7 we banned Swagger because Tapu Fini made it too easy to delegate an offensive sweeper's stat boosting to a bulky partner with low opportunity cost. WP + self proc is pretty much the same thing, and if anything, is even easier to pull off.
 
I've noticed a certain pattern lately:
  • Beat Up was banned because of how absurdly easy it is for Dragapult to use it on a Dynamaxed Terrakion, giving it +6 Attack in a heartbeat.
  • Melmetal has ridiculous physical stats, and can take a hit from almost anything, especially when Dynamaxed, and some people want it banned.
  • Weakness Policy is now being brought to the chopping block because of how many Dynamaxed Pokemon can seemingly abuse it.
Hmm... I think we might have found the root of the problem. I know Dynamax is the flagship battle feature of Gen 8, but a broken mechanic is broken, no matter how flagship-y it is. There's a reason Zacian and Eternatus aren't legal in this format, and even they occasionally struggle against Dynamaxed mons in Ubers. Banning Dynamaxing probably wouldn't end all problems, but it would make Weakness Policy less easy to abuse and Melmetal less over-the-top (not to mention things like Barraskewda, Dragapult, Terrakion, and other mons that become nightmare fodder when Dynamaxed). So maybe, just maybe, DOU should consider doing to Dynamax what OU did to it back in December?

Oh, and I also recently came up with a Beartic set that is absurdly powerful in hail, particularly when it Dynamaxes. Have a few more replays of it doing just that (and I maintain that if a mechanic is able to make Beartic of all things push the boundaries, there is a valid reason to believe it's probably too unhealthy):
Prevalent throughout: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1072517214
Showing up late to bring the house down: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1072574848
Surviving through (most of) the sand: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1072524624
Hangry David and Dynamaxed Goliath standing together triumphantly at the end: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1073079893
 

Stratos

formerly Pwnemon
is a Tiering Contributor
Let's back up a bit lol. Dynamax is mostly not why some people think Melmetal is broken. Maxing actually reduces its damage output in the short term because its stab gets weaker, and on the Acid Armor set, so does its coverage. Non-Weakness Policy Melmetal is generally a very bad max target. And you are absolutely going to have to do more than some 1300 replays to convince me that Beartic of all things is broken with dynamax. The level of play in just that first replay was enough to undermine that argument completely: why did you immediately max a -1 beartic, why did your opponent flare blitz it in dyna instead of uturning and coming in after it had ended; why did he ignore the +3/+2 mon for multiple turns...

Banning dynamax to save some things that have been cringe cheese strats for years is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you want to ban dynamax I think you have to show that it's broken without beat up, weakness policy, shadow tag... and that's not what I've seen. I think maxing is generally good for DOU. Battles have a fun tension where you are trying to force your opponent into situations they have to max out of, because the person who maxes first usually loses. On the other hand, there's the competing tension of not waiting too long, because you need to have the resources to stomach their max and hit back. I find it very fun. It's certainly the main consideration when playing SS DOU, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. And we don't have a situation where the only way to counter an opponent's max is to max. We didn't ban z moves as soon as Eevee was clearly broken and I don't think we need to ban dynamax because of a few cheese strats either.
 
I know Dynamax ban was actually never an option for the council. Its just never going to actually get banned, lol.

It also feels like I just got strawmanned and defeated with facts and logic here. If Melmetal is broken without Dynamax yeah sure ban that. You guys think beat up is too "cheesy" then I think thats a ridiculous path to go down but yeah sure ban that as seemingly I am overruled. However, I don't see what is legitimately cheesy about Shadow Tag. That thing's just actually just plainly good and busted. Weakness policy isn't a cheese either - has Diancie ever been considered "cheese" in gen7? - and I feel it is a legitimate part of Dynamax that it gives your 1 Pokemon to go super. Weakness Policy isn't the only way to accomplish this effect; things like Charizard / Whimsicott and Fake Tears combos with things like Duraludon or Dragapult and Goth Helping Hand + Dynamax like Durant exist that basically let you get OHKOs on whichever slot you are targeting. Weakness Policy also has a pretty steep price to pay that is not mentioned: having 2 specific Pokemon active on the field at the same time - which is far more impactful than whatever teambuilding move / item slot concessions you make to have it on the field. Switches aren't free, and if you switch in your weakness policy user you risk it being very inefficient at dynamaxing. I believe positioning for that is going to be just much more difficult once Shadow Tag is banned, then the only other common Self WP activation that are seen (hitmontop / lapras, or fling Whimicott) require significant teambuilding concessions. In fact every time you see WP cheese "be a problem" it's with Gothitelle. I don't think any of these are individually are broken with Weakness Policy Dynamax; it's just that there's too many of these "power pairs" you just want to trim down the number and Weakness Policy is the easiest target for 'being cheesy'. Weakness Policy would also be the first ever Smogon item ban that isn't a species exclusive item like mega stones or soul dew. Just ban Gothitelle and WP will be much less of a pain.

It would perhaps give me more insight if I could look at you guys's high level discussions happening on Discord, but without it, just seems to me like you guys are just looking for things to ban. WP ban sounds pretty far out there.
 
Let me do a baddy bad attempt at detailing the impact of Dynamax in Doubles OU. Do note that this is not about calling a ban or suspect test to Dynamax, I will get into that later.

Beat Up :terrakion:
This move has been recently banned and as everyone has said before, Dynamax does make Justified + Beat Up more overwhelming than before since it gains flinch immunity from Fake Out with its HP doubled. Whimsicott and Dragapult being both Tier 1 mon don't help matter with the latter also immune to Fake Out. Only good counterplay is Follow Me, moving on.

Weakness Policy (almost everything)
Weakness Policy is ridiculous in Gen 8. A Dynamaxed Pokemon taking a super-effective hit from a regular Pokemon usually doesn't OHKO them thanks to the doubled HP. This enables them to go crazy once they get the boosts from WP and forcing the player to do mind games. Even then, there is a surprising amount of Pokemon that takes advantage of WP without Dynamax. A good counterplay is to use Knock Off..... unless they happened to be weak to Dark which will activate it anyway. Necrozma is particularly notorious as it has Prism Armor to take less damage from SE attacks and being weak to Knock Off.

We have made a discussion about limiting Dynamax level to 0 in an attempt to balance it, but nothing has come into fruition. Though Weakness Policy might still be overwhelming, just on a lesser scale. Also, please ban Weakness Policy.

Flying-types :togekiss: :gyarados: :braviary:
Definitely the lesser evil of the trilogy since Trick Room and Thunder Wave exist, but getting the speed boosts from Max Airstream makes Flying-types strives again as an offensive type with its neutral coverage and nothing is immune it makes the boosts nearly guaranteed with the exception of Max Guard. Togekiss becomes one of the best in the meta with it taking advantage of its speed boosts later by potentially flinching foes with Air Slash and having arsenals such as Follow Me to redirect and potentially get Weakness Policy boosts and Tailwind. I do fear Gyarados as it's a dangerous sweeper with Max Airstream backed up by Moxie and/or Dragon Dance and I used to think it's banworthy lol. Braviary was great as a Dynamax user before but eventually fallen down.

Sleep
Sleep has been used to check Dynamax Pokemon to either waste their turns or force them to switch out and lose Dynamax in the process. Since we only have Shiinotic as the sole Spore user, we rely on Yawn until Pokemon Home brings Venusaur.

In all honesty, I'm not a big fan of Dynamax, it's unpredictable and leaves too much undesirable impact. Heck, I never understand why people think Z-move or Mega Evolution is broke but Dynamax is more balanced than these two. However, as odd that may sound after expressing my dislike towards it, I do acknowledge that Dynamax isn't as game-changing as it did in OU with sweepers being much harder to stop there or I just suck lol, especially with Dynamax and having to use Imposter Ditto to check them. Let me know what you think of Dynamax.
 
Let me do a baddy bad attempt at detailing the impact of Dynamax in Doubles OU. Do note that this is not about calling a ban or suspect test to Dynamax, I will get into that later.

Beat Up :terrakion:
This move has been recently banned and as everyone has said before, Dynamax does make Justified + Beat Up more overwhelming than before since it gains flinch immunity from Fake Out with its HP doubled. Whimsicott and Dragapult being both Tier 1 mon don't help matter with the latter also immune to Fake Out. Only good counterplay is Follow Me, moving on.

Weakness Policy (almost everything)
Weakness Policy is ridiculous in Gen 8. A Dynamaxed Pokemon taking a super-effective hit from a regular Pokemon usually doesn't OHKO them thanks to the doubled HP. This enables them to go crazy once they get the boosts from WP and forcing the player to do mind games. Even then, there is a surprising amount of Pokemon that takes advantage of WP without Dynamax. A good counterplay is to use Knock Off..... unless they happened to be weak to Dark which will activate it anyway. Necrozma is particularly notorious as it has Prism Armor to take less damage from SE attacks and being weak to Knock Off.

We have made a discussion about limiting Dynamax level to 0 in an attempt to balance it, but nothing has come into fruition. Though Weakness Policy might still be overwhelming, just on a lesser scale. Also, please ban Weakness Policy.

Flying-types :togekiss: :gyarados: :braviary:
Definitely the lesser evil of the trilogy since Trick Room and Thunder Wave exist, but getting the speed boosts from Max Airstream makes Flying-types strives again as an offensive type with its neutral coverage and nothing is immune it makes the boosts nearly guaranteed with the exception of Max Guard. Togekiss becomes one of the best in the meta with it taking advantage of its speed boosts later by potentially flinching foes with Air Slash and having arsenals such as Follow Me to redirect and potentially get Weakness Policy boosts and Tailwind. I do fear Gyarados as it's a dangerous sweeper with Max Airstream backed up by Moxie and/or Dragon Dance and I used to think it's banworthy lol. Braviary was great as a Dynamax user before but eventually fallen down.

Sleep
Sleep has been used to check Dynamax Pokemon to either waste their turns or force them to switch out and lose Dynamax in the process. Since we only have Shiinotic as the sole Spore user, we rely on Yawn until Pokemon Home brings Venusaur.

In all honesty, I'm not a big fan of Dynamax, it's unpredictable and leaves too much undesirable impact. Heck, I never understand why people think Z-move or Mega Evolution is broke but Dynamax is more balanced than these two. However, as odd that may sound after expressing my dislike towards it, I do acknowledge that Dynamax isn't as game-changing as it did in OU with sweepers being much harder to stop there or I just suck lol, especially with Dynamax and having to use Imposter Ditto to check them. Let me know what you think of Dynamax.
Frankly I agree with every point made
 
Heatedge's points are well taken, but the impact of dynamax goes far beyond the so-called "broken" circumstances. As Stratos said, "It's certainly the main consideration when playing SS DOU..." He enjoys it. Great. But what about the many who don't--or who don't want it to be the only option for doubles play? It's an interesting variation to the previous gameplay, but unless something major happens (e.g., banning dynamax or putting the gen 7 DOU ladder back up) then it's going to define all doubles play for the next several years (while for the mods it's great, challenging in previous gens is not a viable option to get significant games for most players). All kinds of strategies that worked in, and defined, the prior generations are no longer viable in the current format because of dynamax. You may have worked everything out with typing, speed, etc. and dynamax spoils your sweep. You can't rely on fake out, encore, etc. The new weather from dynamaxed mons screws things up for weather teams (water is not even viable anymore really). You have to spend a lot of resources just thinking about how to survive your opponent's dynamax, so hyper offensive play gives way to trick room focused bulk. Let me ask you all a question, do you think the good folks at Nintendo cooked up dynamax/gigantamax primarily: (a) to improve gameplay in battles among serious players, or (b) because they were running out of new ideas and they knew huge Pokemon would look cool to their primarily pre-teen fanbase? If we all know the answer is (b) why let dynamax define our games? OU didn't (even though they have a hugely popular gen 7 OU ladder available as an option as well).
 
Bans have consequences that only lead to a floodgate of more bans.
Did I fucking call it or what? Good bye beat up, good bye weakness policy, good bye shadow tag, goodbye Melmetal, goodbye dynamax. This game already lacks a wide selection of strats, so lets take as many as we can away. Very good mindset.

All of this before the full game is even out. Gen 8 never had a chance.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Beat Up seems awkward to ban when the real culprit seem to be Terrakion/Cobalion, as Beat Up strategies in VGC have died down since people learned to play around Arcanine/Lucario.

About Weakness Policy: it seems the real issue is might be just the lack of an item clause here, as there isn't as much drawback from running multiple in this format. However, WP is not always easy to activate and requires planning in the teambuilder if you want to self-activate it, so I don't think Weakness Policy is a broken item on its own.

Dynamax is good in Doubles. You can tell Gamefreak designed this mechanic to be used primarily for VGC (Doubles), and for good reason. It adds strategy and new interaction with your opponent. Unlike in Singles, you can double up on a Dynamax target, and you can Dynamax yourself, so it adds another component to the game rather than being busted imo
 
Have we thought of maybe implementing something like restricting the Dynamax Level of a Pokémon? I notice every mon has their Dynamax Level at its maximum, which grants I believe a 200% boost to the HP. But maybe something like a Lv 5 or even Lv 0 boost?

I thought of this when I used a Weavile in a raid battle and noticed that I had forgotten to raise its Dynamax Level to max and got damaged and worn down a LOT faster than usual. So I decided to do a bit of testing and got these results. Idk all the exact math, but lol

Base - 260HP
Lv 0 - 390HP
Lv. 1 - 403HP
LV. 5 - 455HP
Lv. 10 (MAX) - 520HP

This may not mean much to some, but I feel like doing something like this will cut down on the survivability of Dynamax Pokémon, especially true for the more bulkier ones, and make them a bit less oppressive to fight and easier to revenge kill have you find yourself in a situation where they’re just too dummy thicc to knock down by normal means. Dynamax has been an extremely controversial topic around the community lately and for VERY good reason. And I think trying this could be an interesting plan of action opposed to jumping straight to an outright ban of it maybe (considering that’s even on the table rn)

Just food for thought imo
0E4842CC-DE3A-4509-B0B8-DA16065B0709.jpeg
 
I used to be dead set on Dynamax not being game breaking in doubles unlike it very clearly is in singles, but after reading your posts, I have started to reflect on the topic and have come to the conclusion that it gives certain pokemon way too much independance. You have all done a fantastic job explaining why, so instead of repeating the same arguments, I'll use an example.

I am certain all of us were astonished when we saw alcremie at the beginning of the generation, and expected her to make the meta a brainless exercise of decorating something with a powerful spread move, whether physical or special, and sweeping to victory, yet it has been shown so easy to set up different OP strategies (riskless beat up and weakness policy, boost from fighting and poison moves, tanking in general which includes flinch) thanks to dynamax that alcremie has been relegated to DUU, as few have found it worth it to use this support mon in such an unbelievebly volatile metagame. This is not to say that alcremie is without other flaws, but just imagine the impact she would have had, even in more powerful metagames like gen 7 with megas and z cristals, but lacking dynamax.
 

Amaranth

Formerly The Idiot Ninja
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
I used to be dead set on Dynamax not being game breaking in doubles unlike it very clearly is in singles, but after reading your posts, I have started to reflect on the topic and have come to the conclusion that it gives certain pokemon way too much independance. You have all done a fantastic job explaining why, so instead of repeating the same arguments, I'll use an example.



I am certain all of us were astonished when we saw alcremie at the beginning of the generation, and expected her to make the meta a brainless exercise of decorating something with a powerful spread move, whether physical or special, and sweeping to victory, yet it has been shown so easy to set up different OP strategies (riskless beat up and weakness policy, boost from fighting and poison moves, tanking in general which includes flinch) thanks to dynamax that alcremie has been relegated to DUU, as few have found it worth it to use this support mon in such an unbelievebly volatile metagame. This is not to say that alcremie is without other flaws, but just imagine the impact she would have had, even in more powerful metagames like gen 7 with megas and z cristals, but lacking dynamax.
Think you're off the mark on this one honestly, Alcremie was never going to be good because boosting your partner is only very powerful if the boosted partner is attacking on the same turn and with Alcremie's speed tier that's very difficult to set up. I highly doubt she'd see any more play after a dynamax ban.





Honestly lads I think we're rushing the trigger on WPol+Dmax. It's very strong for sure but I think there's heaps of counterplay available if you learn to position yourself properly around it, I would give it more time before calling for bans. Remember how we had the Lap+Top craze for like a week or two and then people adapted and moved on? I feel like as people get into the mindset that WPol is a real item now and the same can happen with Dragapults, Melmetals etc. they'll start to play around it more and if anything I think playing around denying setup in this way can be a healthy interaction to reward skilled players. I'm not confident that this is 100% what will happen, but it happened once already with the LapTop core and WPol was never very good in the past gens so I think it would be a bad move to rush a suspect.

What would not be a bad move is addressing Shadow Tag. It feels like much more of a known quantity, a few people have been crying out for a Goth ban for a long time already and Gen 8 has only made her stronger with Fake Out access + the addition of Parting Shot to Incin's movepool. We'll probably figure out counterplay to WPol+Dmax because it's for the most part a new phenomenon, with STag I feel like we're collectively much more informed and experienced and ready to make a decision as a community.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
I am certain all of us were astonished when we saw alcremie at the beginning of the generation, and expected her to make the meta a brainless exercise of decorating something with a powerful spread move, whether physical or special, and sweeping to victory, yet it has been shown so easy to set up different OP strategies (riskless beat up and weakness policy, boost from fighting and poison moves, tanking in general which includes flinch) thanks to dynamax that alcremie has been relegated to DUU, as few have found it worth it to use this support mon in such an unbelievebly volatile metagame. This is not to say that alcremie is without other flaws, but just imagine the impact she would have had, even in more powerful metagames like gen 7 with megas and z cristals, but lacking dynamax.
haha just wait until smeargle's back
 

DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
is a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Top Researcheris a Tiering Contributor
PS Leader
Have we thought of maybe implementing something like restricting the Dynamax Level of a Pokémon? I notice every mon has their Dynamax Level at its maximum, which grants I believe a 200% boost to the HP. But maybe something like a Lv 5 or even Lv 0 boost?

I thought of this when I used a Weavile in a raid battle and noticed that I had forgotten to raise its Dynamax Level to max and got damaged and worn down a LOT faster than usual. So I decided to do a bit of testing and got these results. Idk all the exact math, but lol

Base - 260HP
Lv 0 - 390HP
Lv. 1 - 403HP
LV. 5 - 455HP
Lv. 10 (MAX) - 520HP

This may not mean much to some, but I feel like doing something like this will cut down on the survivability of Dynamax Pokémon, especially true for the more bulkier ones, and make them a bit less oppressive to fight and easier to revenge kill have you find yourself in a situation where they’re just too dummy thicc to knock down by normal means. Dynamax has been an extremely controversial topic around the community lately and for VERY good reason. And I think trying this could be an interesting plan of action opposed to jumping straight to an outright ban of it maybe (considering that’s even on the table rn)

Just food for thought imo
View attachment 226580
I recall nerfing the HP from Dynamax being a discussion that got floated around when OU axed Dynamax, but I think the biggest issue with it is that a good number of G-Max Pokemon can't conform to the given restrictions. I don't know the minimum G-Max level obtainable for every Gigantamax mon, but from experience it seems that the minimum Dynamax Level is 5. All gift G-Max Pokemon have a Dynamax Level of 0, but any G-Max Pokemon caught through raid battles have that minimum level of 5 (which includes G-Max Lapras, Solar Power G-Max Charizard, G-Max Hatterene, G-Max Butterfree, etc.).

The amount of HP after Dynamax is determined by floor[(currentHP * [30+Dynamax Level])/20]. If we set a restriction on Dynamax Level to be 5 (so we wouldn't have to ban the aforementioned Gigantamax Pokemon), it'd still be a 1.75x multiplier to deal with. While nerfing the HP buff from 2x to 1.75x would decrease the relative bulk level of Dynamax, it's not really that sizable when it comes down to it, because you're only losing out on 12.5% HP (1.75/2). At best, it's a slap on the wrist; the Pokemon are still going to have a substantial amount of bulk to aid them on their rampage.

I personally don't think Dynamax needs to be banned at all, but if you do think something should be done about it, nerfing the HP gained isn't the way to go about it.
 
As Marilli said, nobody here actually thinks banning Dynamax is on the table at this point. If that were the only choice, I'd vote for a Dynamax ban because I personally don't enjoy playing with it, but I understand that taking it away without adding back Megas or Z-Crystals would be kind of like going back to Gen 5, except with a less impressive and more limited cast of characters.

However, rather than banning Dynamax at this early stage, I'd much prefer to put back up the Gen 7 DOU ladder as an alternative. I have made my case for that in the Doubles chat room, but figure I'll briefly outline it here too. For the record, one mod suggested I e-mail the Smogon site proprietor about that. When I did, this was the response I got, "I'm glad you're so passionate about our game! Unfortunately, I don't make these decisions. I'd probably recommend you post this on the Smogon forums, where they make the decisions about what formats belong on the ladders." And yes, I get that there's no forum on whether keeping the Gen 7 DOU ladder would be a good idea, which is why I'm posting here.

Here are the main reasons for supporting the revival of the Gen 7 DOU ladder as I see them:

--In the recent survey in the Doubles chat room, Gen 7 was voted the best DOU Gen by a wide margin.

--Currently, as I write this, there are 0 Gen 8 DUU battles (usually, there's like 1), 59 Gen 7 OU battles, 4 Gen 6 OU battles, 1 Gen 5 OU battle, 5 Gen 4 OU battles, 3 Gen 3 OU battles, 0 Gen 2 OU battles and 0 Gen 1 OU battles--all of these formats currently have ladders. Right before the Gen 7 DOU ladder was taken down on Feb. 1, there were 10+ Gen 7 DOU battles going on at any one time most of the time. In terms of pure numbers, the Gen 7 DOU ladder has way more reason to exist than Gen 8 DUU or Gens 1-6 OU.

--Gen 7 DOU is still popular for the same reason that Gen 7 OU is still popular. Gens 7 and 8 are very different and there's not much overlap in terms of the mons regularly used (exceptions like Incineroar prove the rule) or the style of play. Gen 7 is the height of development of the previous Gens, while Gen 8 burns a lot down and starts with something very different.

--I get that, in the past, the doubles community has believed we could only support one Gen at a time, but Gen 7 and 8 are so radically different, we should reexamine whether that makes sense in this case. Also, the Gen 7 and Gen 8 DOU ladders coexisted for some time with no problem. People were actually slowly coming back to Gen 7 DOU when they found out that the ladder was still up. Meanwhile, Gen 8 DOU was doing just fine.

百花齊放,百家爭鳴 ("let a hundred flowers bloom; let a hundred schools of thought contend")

That's the main idea. I appreciate you guys considering it. I know there are many others who feel the way I do, although most of them probably play less now, like I do, and are not the people always commenting here (https://pokemonshowdown.com/ladder/gen7doublesou <-- it looks to me like less than 15 of the top 50 on this list have made a serious attempt to ladder on Gen 8 DOU) . Although no one is willing to take responsibility, I'm sure that if enough people backed this, we could make it happen (mods who are just fine with your awesome challenge battles in any Gen when you want them, please consider this is not a viable option for most of us mortals). Then we could all see how Gen 8 DOU evolves, but if you wanted a break from Dynamax madness, you could always come back and find Lando, the Tapus and your favorite Mega waiting for you back in Gen 7 DOU.
 
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As Marilli said, nobody here actually thinks banning Dynamax is on the table at this point. If that were the only choice, I'd vote for a Dynamax ban because I personally don't enjoy playing with it, but I understand that taking it away without adding back Megas or Z-Crystals would be kind of like going back to Gen 5, except with a less impressive and more limited cast of characters.

However, rather than banning Dynamax at this early stage, I'd much prefer to put back up the Gen 7 DOU ladder as an alternative. I have made my case for that in the Doubles chat room, but figure I'll briefly outline it here too. For the record, one mod suggested I e-mail the Smogon site proprietor about that. When I did, this was the response I got, "I'm glad you're so passionate about our game! Unfortunately, I don't make these decisions. I'd probably recommend you post this on the Smogon forums, where they make the decisions about what formats belong on the ladders." And yes, I get that there's no forum on whether keeping the Gen 7 DOU ladder would be a good idea, which is why I'm posting here.

Here are the main reasons for supporting the revival of the Gen 7 DOU ladder as I see them:

--In the recent survey in the Doubles chat room, Gen 7 was voted the best DOU Gen by a wide margin.

--Currently, as I write this, there are 0 Gen 8 DUU battles (usually, there's like 1), 59 Gen 7 OU battles, 4 Gen 6 OU battles, 1 Gen 5 OU battle, 5 Gen 4 OU battles, 3 Gen 3 OU battles, 0 Gen 2 OU battles and 0 Gen 1 OU battles--all of these formats currently have ladders. Right before the Gen 7 DOU ladder was taken down on Feb. 1, there were 10+ Gen 7 DOU battles going on at any one time most of the time. In terms of pure numbers, the Gen 7 DOU ladder has way more reason to exist than Gen 8 DUU or Gens 1-6 OU.

--Gen 7 DOU is still popular for the same reason that Gen 7 OU is still popular. Gens 7 and 8 are very different and there's not much overlap in terms of the mons regularly used (exceptions like Incineroar prove the rule) or the style of play. Gen 7 is the height of development of the previous Gens, while Gen 8 burns a lot down and starts with something very different.

--I get that, in the past, the doubles community has believed we could only support one Gen at a time, but Gen 7 and 8 are so radically different, we should reexamine whether that makes sense in this case. Also, the Gen 7 and Gen 8 DOU ladders coexisted for some time with no problem. People were actually slowly coming back to Gen 7 DOU when they found out that the ladder was still up. Meanwhile, Gen 8 DOU was doing just fine.

百花齊放,百家爭鳴 ("let a hundred flowers bloom; let a hundred schools of thought contend")

That's the main idea. I appreciate you guys considering it. I know there are many others who feel the way I do, although most of them probably play less now, like I do, and are not the people always commenting here (https://pokemonshowdown.com/ladder/gen7doublesou <-- it looks to me like less than 15 of the top 50 on this list have made a serious attempt to ladder on Gen 8 DOU) . Although no one is willing to take responsibility, I'm sure that if enough people backed this, we could make it happen (mods who are just fine with your awesome challenge battles in any Gen when you want them, please consider this is not a viable option for most of us mortals). Then we could all see how Gen 8 DOU evolves, but if you wanted a break from Dynamax madness, you could always come back and find Lando, the Tapus and your favorite Mega waiting for you back in Gen 7 DOU.
I have read this and I have thought, we aren't Game Freak, and this isn't VGC, so how about we instead of adhearing to the gen 7 format, why don't we just go ahead and ban dynamax in gen 8 DOU, and create a DOU including all gens which, at least for now allows dynamax, and see if the added power of megas and z cristals and other old mons is enough to balance the extra power, although I didn't play that much national dex, I didn't feel dynamax being as centraling as in OU albeit, still ban worthy, similarly in doubles the dynamax isn't as clear cut, so I'd like to see it's combination. This I think is the compromise that would fullfil everybody's wishes, DOU without dynamax, somewhere to use dynamax, and bringing back the old mons.
 
I would strongly push against the suggestion that restricting dynamax to a format that also reintroduces all the national dex powerhouses is a compromise that fulfills everybody's wishes. I think that misses the mark regarding what people do and don't like about dynamax.

This is a separate point from the suggestion that a Gen 8 format without dynamax should exist.
 
Have we thought of maybe implementing something like restricting the Dynamax Level of a Pokémon? I notice every mon has their Dynamax Level at its maximum, which grants I believe a 200% boost to the HP. But maybe something like a Lv 5 or even Lv 0 boost?

I thought of this when I used a Weavile in a raid battle and noticed that I had forgotten to raise its Dynamax Level to max and got damaged and worn down a LOT faster than usual. So I decided to do a bit of testing and got these results. Idk all the exact math, but lol

Base - 260HP
Lv 0 - 390HP
Lv. 1 - 403HP
LV. 5 - 455HP
Lv. 10 (MAX) - 520HP

This may not mean much to some, but I feel like doing something like this will cut down on the survivability of Dynamax Pokémon, especially true for the more bulkier ones, and make them a bit less oppressive to fight and easier to revenge kill have you find yourself in a situation where they’re just too dummy thicc to knock down by normal means. Dynamax has been an extremely controversial topic around the community lately and for VERY good reason. And I think trying this could be an interesting plan of action opposed to jumping straight to an outright ban of it maybe (considering that’s even on the table rn)

Just food for thought imo
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That just seems pretty arbitrary, like when people suggested having only certain Pokemon Dynamax or only having the Pokemon in the first slot Dynamax.
It would be like if we just decided to have Minimize be only 10 PP while forcing you to switch out after 2 turns.
If Dynamax is on the table, it leaves entirely or it stays entirely. Otherwise, no one would be happy.
 
I have read this and I have thought, we aren't Game Freak, and this isn't VGC, so how about we instead of adhearing to the gen 7 format, why don't we just go ahead and ban dynamax in gen 8 DOU, and create a DOU including all gens which, at least for now allows dynamax, and see if the added power of megas and z cristals and other old mons is enough to balance the extra power, although I didn't play that much national dex, I didn't feel dynamax being as centraling as in OU albeit, still ban worthy, similarly in doubles the dynamax isn't as clear cut, so I'd like to see it's combination. This I think is the compromise that would fullfil everybody's wishes, DOU without dynamax, somewhere to use dynamax, and bringing back the old mons.
I don't know that Dynamax needs to be banned in Gen 8, personally I feel it is okay but I do see where people might want a separate ladder without it and I think that would be great. Also as much as I would love a National Dex Doubles bringing back older Pokemon that have a higher power I dont think will be able to fix the problems with Dynamax instead it makes the issues worse, If ultra beasts come back we dont know if Game Freak would allow them to Dynamax, however strong Pokemon that are brought back are just going to benefit even more from Dynamax which increases the power level of Pokemon that were already common in past doubles formats and make it even higher where a weaker pool of Pokemon at least can keep things a little more manageable If Beat Up+Terrakion is significantly better because of Dynamax then imagine the impact of a good pokemon like Lando-T gaining extra bulk from Max Quakes or Kartana using Max Airstream to gain speed get a OHKO and then getting +1 Atk from Beast Boost.
 

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