Metagame np: SS DOU stage 0: Begin Again | Jirachi, Kyurem-B, Marshadow banned

Inmovable force (Reuniclus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Recover
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Acid Armor

Although this is still a new strategy it has proven to be close to impossible to stop once set up and is a great check to trick room teams, unless your opponents get as good of a critical hit rng as some have had on my tests, but that's just bad luck on my part. If possible you should try to set up in front of two enemies with the same damage type, ideally phisical, and use the defensive boost that counters said type, once said defense is at x2 it should be able to withstand double targeting with supereffective damage from one of them while losing 50% HP or less from my testing, once you have either use recover until you are healthy so you can boost up further, or use a partner with healing pulse or life dew to heal you while boost, I also use Gmax-Lapras on my team which helps set up more easily if aurora veil is still up, you are welcome to use your wall setter of choice to support this strategy. Once you are happy with your boosts, unleash the ridiculous power of a superboosted stored power which 0HKO literaly anything which isn't either dark type, is wearing a focus sash, or uses protect. You do not have to worry about damage from leech seed, toxic, fire, etc... which would normally kill a sweep as your ability blocks it. However, do watch out for dragon tail, haze and clear smog users as they may undo all your hard work if you let them.

As for team options it can fit on tr teams or on defensive-balance teams, although if you want him to be able to set up trick room you'll have to give up either of it's boosts or the healing independance of recover. Even with recover, it is still very recomendable to carry dedicated healers to set up, I personally use life dew Lapras and a Clefairy I hope gets access to friend guard sooner rather than later.

P.S. Darkest Lariat ignores stat changes and thus is a great threat, so if for example a belly drum snorlax used it against me at x4 attack and went through all my defense boosts, it would be it's demise, and nobody would ever be upset about it (; .
 
Last edited:
I looked around quite a bit, but I haven't found any posts about this strategy yet, how about the combo Runerigus/Diggersby?

I had great success with a team I just clobbed together yesterday, it would probably be even better if someone who is actually good at buildidng teams tried it

the idea is to send in Diggersby and Runerigus first, u-turn on Runerigus to give it Huge Power, use Trick Room in the same turn and proceed to wreak havoc, potentially dynamaxing if you didn't lose too much health turn 1. Rest of the team is just support and cleanup, T-Tar is great if Runerigus died early and you dtill have dynamax

Diggersby @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Super Fang
- Foul Play
- Bulldoze

Runerigus @ Mental Herb
Ability: Wandering Spirit
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Shadow Claw
- Trick Room

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Scald
- Recover
- Icy Wind
- Earth Power

Arcanine @ Air Balloon
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Extreme Speed
- Heat Wave
- Helping Hand
- Will-O-Wisp

Togekiss @ Room Service
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 176 SpA / 80 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Dazzling Gleam
- Heat Wave
- Life Dew
- Follow Me

Tyranitar @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Thunder Punch
- Protect
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
One thing I noticed is Orbeetle's G-Max move can summon Gravity. Despite that, the validator will allow G-Max Orbeetle with anyone that has sleep moves below 100% accuracy when Gravity+Sleep ban is in effect on Gravity. Considering that Dynamax only lasted for 3 turns, I'm not sure if that should be taken any action yet, but it's worth discussing it.

since this was brought up, I thought I'd quote from last gen, from when Z Trick Room Bronzong was drawing comparisons to GravSleep:
HypnoGrav was also a massive ball of pain - the standard team had Mew / Sableye / Darkrai / Mega Gengar / Skymin / Landorus-I, several of which had sleep moves (even Grasswhistle Skymin) and multiple instances of Gravity (Mew, Lando, probably Sableye). Bad Dreams racked up damage over time, Mega Gengar kept sleeping Pokemon from switching out, and Lando-I in Gravity is just fucking terrifying already when half your team isn't asleep. Zong + Bulu doesn't have anywhere near the same pressure as the full HypnoGrav roster, uses a Z-move whose effect is lost if you're forced out, and still has a Hydro Pump's chance of failure (and we've all won and lost games on Hydro Pump before).

Comparing ZTR Bronzong to HypnoGrav is just not an accurate way to look at it.
Given that the standard team that made Gravity + Sleep so broken is now effectively gone (No Darkrai, Skymin, Mega Gengar, or Landorus-I, and Mew and Sableye do not learn Gravity currently in SS since it's a past gen tutor), I don't think that this ban should have carried over to SS. It made sense to carry it over from XY to SM, since all the tricks were still there. But it really doesn't make sense to have this as a default right now. It should be removed and if some team is found that can abuse it then it could be reinstated.

I'm skeptical this will be possible to really abuse it at all though since the team worked due to Skymin, Darkrai, and Mega Gengar's speed, with sleep moves, Mega Gengar's trapping, Darkrai's bad dreams, Sableye and Mew's utility (especially Sableye's Quash), and Landorus-I's speed/power/Gravity.
see for example:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-smogondoubles-44534
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-smogondoubles-1467685

As it stands though the only legal mons that learn Gravity in SS are:
Clefairy/Clefable
DusclopsDusknoir
Jirachi
Sigilyph
Necrozma
Stonjourner
Gigalith
Ferrothorn
+G Max Gravitas on Orbeetle

To someone trying to build around Gravity + Sleep right now, I'd say good luck.
 

Level 51

calling in ALL FOR ONE
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Moderator
I'm here to atone for my past sins of calling Indeedee-F "iffy". Indeedee-F might actually be the closest we've come to a purely supportive Tier 1 Pokemon since BW's 1.5 Cresselia and XY's Tier 1 Amoonguss (albeit among a rather less exclusive list). Indeedee has so many positive traits that it's hard and probably not very instructive to list them all out, but suffice to say that even sitting on the field turn after turn it almost always finds something to do so you're not just clicking dead moves. Even Psychic hits surprisingly hard, thanks to Psychic Terrain. (I think most people already know about and agree with these points, but I'm just posting here to make it known that I'm not a backwards troglodyte living in doubt of the superiority of Indeedee.)

Also, to answer a few questions:
But I like AR's suggestions and will replace Whimsicott with a Duraludon. What kinda set do people run? Fast sp.attacker? Can it take attacks from the special side with SpDef investment + AV?
The main point of Whimsicott is as a supportive Pokemon, especially because Prankster Tailwind means that your ally's speed is instantly doubled, which almost always results in them getting a jump on an opponent. After Tailwind, some moves to consider for the other three slots are:
  • Encore, which helps lock down opposing move choices (but which people are often extremely cautious to play around, so keep this in mind);
  • Endeavor, which combines with a Focus Sash to make Whimsicott a significant offensive threat which is surprisingly hard to play around;
  • Taunt, to suppress opposing supportive Pokemon (e.g. Corviknight, Whimsicott) and help to make sure you have the Tailwind advantage while your opponent can't set theirs;
  • Moonblast, just a simple STAB move that puts good damage into threats like Dragapult, Dracovish, Grimmsnarl, and Hydreigon;
  • Energy Ball, another STAB option but this time one more targeted at Rotom-W and Gastrodon in case the rest of your team has trouble handling them;
  • Beat Up—this is significantly more niche than the above options, but if you have a spare slot, something like Justified Arcanine or Lucario can be very threatening when paired with Beat Up (the idea is that you Beat Up your ally to trigger Justified 6 times and max out their Attack stat).
Sample set:
Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Moonblast
- Encore
- Endeavor

I looked around quite a bit, but I haven't found any posts about this strategy yet, how about the combo Runerigus/Diggersby?

I had great success with a team I just clobbed together yesterday, it would probably be even better if someone who is actually good at buildidng teams tried it

the idea is to send in Diggersby and Runerigus first, u-turn on Runerigus to give it Huge Power, use Trick Room in the same turn and proceed to wreak havoc, potentially dynamaxing if you didn't lose too much health turn 1. Rest of the team is just support and cleanup, T-Tar is great if Runerigus died early and you dtill have dynamax
Definitely looks like a fun strategy, but I think the recent explosion of interest in Trick Room teams (especially hard TR) means that teams are more likely to have stronger tools to deal with Trick Room and prevent setup. Runerigus is a bulky setter, sure, but leading Diggersby/Runerigus and U-turning yourself means you're not supporting it at all and hoping that your opponents don't just double-target it to prevent the setup completely. (I get that it also relies partially on the element of surprise, but there's definitely a risky element here.) Also, I question how strong Runerigus actually is once TR does get set up -- it's still susceptible to burns and Intimidate, and doesn't really seem to be able to do much about that, so I wouldn't build an entire team around this strategy.
 

Arcticblast

the real n1n1
is a Forum Moderatoris a Battle Simulator Driveris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
hey guess who's FINALLY PLAYING AGAIN

Gothitelle is kind of busted again, presumably to nobody's surprise. Now suddenly armed with Fake Out and Hypnosis, it's easily possible of just ruining someone's day at any point in a game.

:gothitelle:
Gothitelle @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 100 SpD
Calm / Sassy Nature
- Psyshock
- Fake Out
- Ally Switch
- Taunt / Hypnosis

I don't think I need to explain a whole lot here honestly. This is just a dirty mix of disruptive moves that serve double duty when your opponent can't switch out of them. Fake Out can completely shut down Whimsicott Arcanine leads on top of your normal applications for Fake Out. Natural bulk means you can pretty safely Taunt an Indeedee against the things that use Indeedee - Hatterene doesn't KO most spreads even with Life Orb Max Starfall (or Smite obviously), and most setup sweepers still need a turn to set up before threatening a KO. Taunt is also just the one move you should probably put on any team you intend on laddering with (nobody knows what kind of bullshit the DOU ladder will come up with on any given day, but Taunt stops a lot of it). Ally Switch is Ally Switch. The many intricacies of Ally Switch escape my ability to explain, but it's a very good move that lets you do some really dumb things. I haven't used Hypnosis yet but it's probably good. Oh yeah, these EVs are completely random, find your own spread.

On a slightly more positive note, here are some little tidbits about Pokemon I've been enjoying:
:dragapult:
I didn't think I'd get nearly as much mileage out of base 100 Special Attack as I currently am, but Dragon/Fire/Ghost is pretty sweet coverage, and Life Orb coupled with high BP means it punches a little above its weight sometimes. I find myself Dynamaxing this thing pretty frequently on teams without Braviary (and even then, fairly often).

:tyranitar: :excadrill:
I just really missed Tyranitar being good enough to easily toss on teams, okay? I really like how Tyranitar plays when it's good. Excadrill's cool too; I think Sash is a little better than Life Orb or berries as long as the meta stays too fast for hazards. Both of these two are pretty solid candidates to Dynamax too.

:dracovish:
hitting resists for 75% on the switch feels fucking good, vish vish losers
 
Now that I've had the opportunity to play around in the meta, I wanted to put a pair of Pokemon that I'm really liking together and which is possibly the best counter to Indee + Hat that I've found.

https://pastebin.com/6k45n9pL

Sylveon and Stonjourner. For a brief explanation on Sylveon, the EVs are made so that it out speeds Braviary by one point at plus one. It's Hyper Voice is a powerful spread nuke while Hyper Beam packs a kick if you have to dynamax and set Misty Terrain.

The more interesting member of the combo is Stonjourner. This big boy has both Wide Guard and an unique ability. This ability powers up the moves of its allies by 30%. This paired with Sylveon creates an eminently powerful nuke from Specs Hyper Voice. I'd post calcs here but cannot find an option for Power Spot in the damage calc. Instead a replay will be directly below this which demonstrates how it blows up what is becoming the standard TR lead.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1026709931

Now with Stonjourner's ability to power up its team mates by existing, one might think it would have low stats or a poor move pool. However, this is not true. Adamant natured Stonjourner can shoot Rock Slides off a 383 attack stat and if it runs 252 speed adamant, its speed would be 239. After a Tailwind this sets its speed to 478 and after a D-max flying move (which its presence powers up), its speed goes to 358. Its only really poor stat is its special defense and it crumbles like paper when touched by a special breeze.

It's move pool is also surprisingly versatile. Aside from Wide Guard and Rock Slide, it gets Heat Crash, Stomping Tantrum, Gravity, Stealth Rock, Superpower, and Body Press meaning that it can hit a variety of threats.

It's a Pokemon I haven't seen many considering despite the fact that it performs surprisingly well- not just powering up your own attacks but firing off its own powerful hits. I feel like Ston boy deserves more respect.
 
Now that I've had the opportunity to play around in the meta, I wanted to put a pair of Pokemon that I'm really liking together and which is possibly the best counter to Indee + Hat that I've found.

https://pastebin.com/6k45n9pL

Sylveon and Stonjourner. For a brief explanation on Sylveon, the EVs are made so that it out speeds Braviary by one point at plus one. It's Hyper Voice is a powerful spread nuke while Hyper Beam packs a kick if you have to dynamax and set Misty Terrain.

The more interesting member of the combo is Stonjourner. This big boy has both Wide Guard and an unique ability. This ability powers up the moves of its allies by 30%. This paired with Sylveon creates an eminently powerful nuke from Specs Hyper Voice. I'd post calcs here but cannot find an option for Power Spot in the damage calc. Instead a replay will be directly below this which demonstrates how it blows up what is becoming the standard TR lead.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1026709931

Now with Stonjourner's ability to power up its team mates by existing, one might think it would have low stats or a poor move pool. However, this is not true. Adamant natured Stonjourner can shoot Rock Slides off a 383 attack stat and if it runs 252 speed adamant, its speed would be 239. After a Tailwind this sets its speed to 478 and after a D-max flying move (which its presence powers up), its speed goes to 358. Its only really poor stat is its special defense and it crumbles like paper when touched by a special breeze.

It's move pool is also surprisingly versatile. Aside from Wide Guard and Rock Slide, it gets Heat Crash, Stomping Tantrum, Gravity, Stealth Rock, Superpower, and Body Press meaning that it can hit a variety of threats.

It's a Pokemon I haven't seen many considering despite the fact that it performs surprisingly well- not just powering up your own attacks but firing off its own powerful hits. I feel like Ston boy deserves more respect.
Probs best to go protect on the rock man over heat crash. Keeping your damage support up for a turn helps out more then potential addiontal coverage on corviknight and ferrothorn
 
Klinklang @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Gear Grind
- Wild Charge
- Protect

I've been liking Klinklang as a TR setter because it synergizes well defensively with Hatterene as well as being really good in the TR mirror. Its not super flexible in terms of move slots, but electric is solid coverage with steel. It also can take anything Duraludon can throw at it which is very useful. Also makes great use of max knuckle from scrafty/hitmontop, which are easy to fit into TR teams.
 
Last edited:
Trying to figure out a Darmanitan-Galar + Indeedee team. Any suggestions on what could be done?
Indeede Male or Female, male has trick room and fake out and female has follow me and, she had another attack but I can't remember because no one ever uses it, and since these are the only moves they usually use anyway before they die, who you are refering to, matters a lot and will mean radicaly different teams.
 
Indeede Male or Female, male has trick room and fake out and female has follow me and, she had another attack but I can't remember because no one ever uses it, and since these are the only moves they usually use anyway before they die, who you are refering to, matters a lot and will mean radicaly different teams.
Female, of course

The Darmanitan is Zen Mode, btw
 
Female, of course

The Darmanitan is Zen Mode, btw
If you really want to run Zen Mode Darm (and I'm assuming its Belly Drum), the most important move for Indeedee is Follow Me. You would also want to check your Wide Guard options in case some one sees the Indeedee and tries to nuke you with spread moves. You also want speed control. Whimsicott is pretty amazing, all but guaranteeing a Tail Wind and Braviary is a great Pokemon that detracts intimidate and can give Darm a speed boost. Finally, you would need a way to deal with Trick Room because a standard Trick Room lead absolutely would destroy an Indeedee + BD Darm lead. I posted one such counter lead above.

Also, I have not used Zen Darm so I can't tell you that you would see results. But, if I were to make one, these would be some of my immediate concerns in Teambuilder.
 

talkingtree

Workin' out, sleepin' in, takin' vitamins
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Doubles Captain
By a 6-1 vote, the DOU Council has decided to remove GravSleep Clause. The vast majority of the dangerous abusers of this mechanic in the past like Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Landorus-I, and Mega Gengar have been snapped, so it seems unlikely to still be an issue. This also means that G-Max Orbeetle will no longer be bending any clauses, and can be allowed to do what it pleases.

If in the future this proves to be an issue again, the council will act swiftly in restoring this clause and possibly figuring out how to handle Orbeetle, but for now we're expecting this change to have minimal impact on the metagame.
 

DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Top Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
While we're removing outdated clauses, I propose we also remove the antiquated Evasion Abilities Clause. I think Evasion Moves Clause still has to stay; Minimize Clefable + Follow Me/Soft Boiled or Minimize + Baton Pass Drifblim are probably too potentially bad to keep around.

Evasion Abilities Clause bans the following Abilities: Sand Veil, Snow Cloak.

Fully evolved users of Sand Veil: Dugtrio, Heliolisk, Sandaconda
Fully evolved users of Snow Cloak: Beartic, Froslass, Glaceon, Mamoswine

Of these, I think Dugtrio, Beartic, and Mamoswine have blatantly superior abilities, and I think you would probably be with the majority if you thought Heliolisk and Sandaconda had better alternate Ability choices. As a result, that leaves only Froslass and Glaceon. I think you can still argue a case for Cursed Body being better than Snow Cloak, but it's probably split about 50/50. I would agree that Glaceon's Snow Cloak is superior to its alternative, Ice Body, however.

I think when you compare the list of potential abusers against what's hot in the metagame right now, or what would be projected to have viability in the future, I don't see Snow Cloak Glaceon being a big concern any time soon. Evasion Abilities clause was really only even remotely needed in Generation V with Sand Veil Garchomp + infinite weather; no other generation since then could have even potentially had trouble with Evasion Abilities being allowed. I would find it hard to think something like a miss against a rogue Snow Cloak mon is more impactful than a standard Rock Slide flinch, which is both more probable and much more widely accessible. Now you might say "well wait a minute, what good thing can come out of unbanning Evasion Abilities clause? I don't want any more hax than I have to deal with!". I think it's for the exact same reason that Gravnosis just got unbanned - it simplifies the ruleset, and removing it will have minimal impact on the metagame. And even moreso than Gravnosis, every team has accessible counterplay to Evasion Abilities - all Max Moves have sure-hit accuracy, and so you have three opportunities for guaranteed hits on this theoretical Snow Cloak Glaceon. If all of a sudden, we have an influx in Snow Cloak TR Glaceon that are ruining the metagame, then sure, we can revisit the clause, but I don't realistically see that being necessary.
 
Last edited:

Mizuhime

Lets keep our secrets dirty
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Wall of text
You do make some good points. Removing it really isn't hurting anything, and it doesn't introduce anything that would destroy the metagame outside of some added hax on the ladder. None of these Pokemon bar Mamoswine and maybe Sandsnek will ever see competitive use and even those two are going to be limited if history has anything to speak for.

However, this is where tiering philosophy comes into to play. Everyone typically has a different idea of what is and isn't balanced and that's why we have votes. For me, i've always viewed balancing doubles as keeping it enjoyable. Glaceon is never going to be an issue as is, but if johndoe124 decides he wants to ladder during suspect tests and spam evasion abilities + hail and I happen to miss a majority of my moves, no doubt about it I am going to be pissed off, even more so when it's something that has no benefit other than simplifying the ruleset. To keep it simple, there is just simply no need.

As for, "Evasion Abilities clause was really only even remotely needed in Generation V with Sand Veil Garchomp + infinite weather." It wasn't just Garchomp, more annoying was britscor. Garchomp was outright banned in Gen 4 because it didn't have access to alternative abilities. The Evasion Ability clause was introduced knowing Pokemon like Garchomp, Gliscor, Frosslass etc all had access to other abilities, meaning they could still be allowed in the tier because they weren't outright broken (debateable for chomp) and it would save the council time by not having to test every Pokemon that could abuse the weather abilities.

Minimal impact on the meta is still impact on the meta, there's no reason to introduce more variables to the game that fail to bring an actual positive influence.
 

talkingtree

Workin' out, sleepin' in, takin' vitamins
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Doubles Captain
Quick disclaimer: This is my personal opinion, not the general consensus of the council.

With the description I gave as the reason why HypnoGrav clause was removed, I can see how that logic is easily transferrable through the points DaWoblefet made. However, I see a few differences, some of which I might have extrapolated on in the original ban announcement had council discussed wording and semantics behind the situation more thoroughly. It was a nearly unanimous opinion that we should remove that compound ban, so we may have brushed past that a bit too quickly.

HypnoGrav is a strategy that requires building, planning, and execution. Even when it's successful in putting foes to sleep, the user has to have enough offensive presence to make the significant effort of setting aside moveslots, teamslots, and turns worth it. In the past, the opportunity cost was worth it thanks to many of the users of these moves already being valuable threats who didn't lose much by giving up the moveslot. I think of this as somewhat similar to how Snorlax was banned following Goth/Lax/Mane teams rising to prominence; what would normally be an impressive strategical play to get advantageous positioning was instead far too easy to obtain. Essentially, it's when HypnoGrav teams have such a low barrier to success that they're unhealthy, so the broken part of those teams was banned. That barrier is considerably higher this gen, so I voted for the clause to be stricken.

In the case of Evasion Abilities Clause, there is minimal building, with no planning or execution necessary. Instead, whatever Pokemon happens to have an evasion ability can run that and hope to catch a lucky break. Regardless of the viability of these Pokemon, the core mechanics behind this are unhealthy and deserve to stay banned. The presence of this clause signifies that banking on evasion isn't allowed, and puts the focus back on successful strategic gameplay.

There are other little points I'll run through quickly:
  • There's no collateral damage to keeping these banned
  • I think we need a strong reason to vary our clauses from OU's -- HypnoGrav was one such reason, and now it is not
  • Evasion, as Mizuhime said, is no fun
  • Removing HypnoGrav made our banlist *considerably* simpler, so the value there was much larger than removing a self-explanatory clause that everyone would expect to see
The onus is on anyone advocating for removal to explain the value of that decision, and as far as I can tell, the only value is a minimally simplified ruleset, which I don't believe outweighs the points I've made above.
 

Yoda2798

Not the user you are looking for
is a Tiering Contributor
I'd like to weigh in my thoughts on some of the arguments/positions put forth above. Note that when I refer to Evasion below I'm talking just about the Evasion abilities, since as DaWoblefet pointed out Evasion moves would be more of a problem.

However, this is where tiering philosophy comes into to play. Everyone typically has a different idea of what is and isn't balanced and that's why we have votes. For me, i've always viewed balancing doubles as keeping it enjoyable. Glaceon is never going to be an issue as is, but if johndoe124 decides he wants to ladder during suspect tests and spam evasion abilities + hail and I happen to miss a majority of my moves, no doubt about it I am going to be pissed off, even more so when it's something that has no benefit other than simplifying the ruleset. To keep it simple, there is just simply no need.
Evasion, as Mizuhime said, is no fun
The argument put forth here is that Evasion is unfun to face, which I don't think is a completely valid reason to keep it banned. First of all, fun is subjective, and if johndoe124 is enjoying his perennial stay in the 1100s to use Snow Cloak Glaceon or a tourneybro wants to use it for fun then I don't think someone else's disenjoyment should necessarily disallow it. The example of losing a ladder game to hax isn't very compelling to me either, as this sort of thing happens anyways. In this hypothetical game, you could get frozen a bunch by Blizzard, or similar other examples would be repeatedly getting flinched by Rock Slide or hit by Hypnosis (without Gravity). Everyone who's laddered will also know the joy of seeing Quick Claw activate or a 100% accurate move miss (from Bright Powder). Shedinja or other ladder gimmicks can also be annoying to beat. Heck, even tour players can find Pokemon like Chansey or Gothitelle (particularly Trick Scarf) frustrating to face. Should these be banned? In anycase, I don't think "fun" should be the deciding factor. In the case of the non-RNG based elements I think clearly they need to be proven as legitimately broken, not just unfun. When chance is involved, it's more difficult to draw the line on what is considered 'too much', but Sand Veil/Snow Cloak fall on the end of the scale near Bright Powder, not Gen 5/6 Swagger or OHKO moves for me. If the worst thing that can happen from unbanning Evasion is taking an unlucky L on ladder to mono Hail, especially remembering that Dynamax moves don't miss and can set weather to override Hail as well, then I think it's clearly not broken.

Minimal impact on the meta is still impact on the meta, there's no reason to introduce more variables to the game that fail to bring an actual positive influence.
I dislike this notion that for something to be unbanned it must bring a "positive" impact to the metagame. It rigs the board quite heavily against unbanning anything that isn't a Pokemon. This sort of thinking can lead to instances such as GravSleep still being banned in SM DOU despite the fact that it's clearly not broken, with Misty / Electric Terrain being everywhere meaning even Amoonguss struggles a lot this gen. Elements (Pokemon/moves/abilities/whatever) are banned for having a negative influence on the metagame, so to be unbanned it should only need to be proven that they no longer have a (sufficiently banworthy) negative influence. If Evasion is deemed to have minimal impact, which I believe DaWoblefet has outlined would be the case, then it should be freed. Worst case scenario is, like he said, it ruins the meta and we swiftly bring down the banhammer again.

There's no collateral damage to keeping these banned
I guess the point here is that there's no downside to keeping the status quo, but as I detailed above if something banned is not broken then we should investigate freeing it, particularly when the consensus above seems to be "Evasion would be unconsequential, but unfun the 1% of times we face and lose to it".

I think we need a strong reason to vary our clauses from OU's -- HypnoGrav was one such reason, and now it is not
This point is honestly very wrong. First of all, this is the lack of a clause compared to singles which has already been done in gens 6 & 7 with our lack of sleep clause, and this gen where we have unbanned Moody while singles unbanned it then rebanned it. An even more major example now would be how DOU still has Dynamax allowed while OU does not. Furthermore, it would actually be aligning our clauses in this case, as singles OU doesn't actually have Evasion abilities currently banned!



Removing HypnoGrav made our banlist *considerably* simpler, so the value there was much larger than removing a self-explanatory clause that everyone would expect to see
I agree that the GravSleep clause being deleted was good in part due to its complexity (and the fact that it wasn't even properly implemented as a clause on Showdown). However, I don't think removing a clause "everyone expects to see" is much of a point against. As pointed out above we already have ruleset differences between singles and doubles, as well as between the different doubles generations. Gen 5 DOU had sleep clause while later generations don't, but more to the point we currently have Moody and Swagger free in gen 8 while both are banned in all the DOU past gens. Just because something is banworthy in one generation doesn't mean it should be automatically considered banworthy in following generations. I don't think keeping uniformity in clauses across generations / tiers for the sake of uniformity is a very convincing point.
 
Last edited:

DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Top Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
I appreciate the interaction a lot! I'll respond to a few points with remarks.

As for, "Evasion Abilities clause was really only even remotely needed in Generation V with Sand Veil Garchomp + infinite weather." It wasn't just Garchomp, more annoying was britscor. Garchomp was outright banned in Gen 4 because it didn't have access to alternative abilities. The Evasion Ability clause was introduced knowing Pokemon like Garchomp, Gliscor, Frosslass etc all had access to other abilities, meaning they could still be allowed in the tier because they weren't outright broken (debateable for chomp) and it would save the council time by not having to test every Pokemon that could abuse the weather abilities.
I'm not especially familiar with the history in Generation IV, but at least from Googling "Britscor", it sounds like you're talking about Singles here. I am exclusively thinking about Doubles OU in the history of the doubles since Generation V. Having my primary focus be in VGC, which allowed evasion moves/Abilities of all sorts, I can confidently say that Garchomp in VGC 2012-early 2013, prior to Landorus-T's release, was the only Pokemon that Sand Veil was relevant on since 2011. Having had the opportunity to play BW DOU seriously as well, I would sincerely doubt that Sand Veil being freed in that tier would project Garchomp to becoming a significantly better Pokemon. Nevertheless, my main point with referencing BW DOU Garchomp is I don't think we would have anything comparable to BW Garchomp evasion-wise in the tiers from Generation VI-onward. And of course, I'm not advocating to remove Evasion Abilities clause from those tiers; though I think they don't need it either, I'm just citing the history to offer support for "Evasion Abilities Clause has been irrelevant for a long time and SwSh hasn't changed that".

The more important point I feel is this one:
However, this is where tiering philosophy comes into to play. Everyone typically has a different idea of what is and isn't balanced and that's why we have votes. For me, i've always viewed balancing doubles as keeping it enjoyable. Glaceon is never going to be an issue as is, but if johndoe124 decides he wants to ladder during suspect tests and spam evasion abilities + hail and I happen to miss a majority of my moves, no doubt about it I am going to be pissed off, even more so when it's something that has no benefit other than simplifying the ruleset. To keep it simple, there is just simply no need.

....

Minimal impact on the meta is still impact on the meta, there's no reason to introduce more variables to the game that fail to bring an actual positive influence.
In the case of Evasion Abilities Clause, there is minimal building, with no planning or execution necessary. Instead, whatever Pokemon happens to have an evasion ability can run that and hope to catch a lucky break. Regardless of the viability of these Pokemon, the core mechanics behind this are unhealthy and deserve to stay banned. The presence of this clause signifies that banking on evasion isn't allowed, and puts the focus back on successful strategic gameplay.

There are other little points I'll run through quickly:
  • There's no collateral damage to keeping these banned
  • I think we need a strong reason to vary our clauses from OU's -- HypnoGrav was one such reason, and now it is not
  • Evasion, as Mizuhime said, is no fun
  • Removing HypnoGrav made our banlist *considerably* simpler, so the value there was much larger than removing a self-explanatory clause that everyone would expect to see
The onus is on anyone advocating for removal to explain the value of that decision, and as far as I can tell, the only value is a minimally simplified ruleset, which I don't believe outweighs the points I've made above.
I think it's pretty clear that evasion is annoying and bad. Having 100% accurate attacks turned into 80%, etc. is obviously not fun to deal with. However, if you're going to say that "hax bad, we ban hax", then I see this as a slippery slope argument that ultimately collapses. For example, consider an Ability like Cursed Body or Effect Spore; these abilities have a > 20% chance of activating and causing something bad. I watched a win-and-in game at Worlds this year be decided by Effect Spore Amoonguss. These are different kinds of hax, but they are still passive Abilities that can impact the state of a game. Now, given the arguments presented by the pro-Evasion Abilities side, how should we handle Effect Spore? You can't say it's to keep it freed because of low distribution, that it would have minimal impact on the metagame, because apparently that's enough to keep Snow Cloak banned. So it must be because 1) Effect Spore isn't broken and doesn't deserve to be banned even through it can introduce hax or 2) It would be simpler to keep it unbanned for newer players, to reduce the restrictions they have. And what about other moves/effects that are naturally haxy? Again, something like Rock Slide is both much more probable to swing a game and much more widely distributed, and much less fun, but I don't hear anyone calling for its ban. You can provide tons of these examples.

Another point: why do we still allow the items Bright Powder and Lax Incense if evasion is so bad? Probably because the opportunity cost of running those items over a more consistent item is too high. But is it really thought that the opportunity cost of running a Glaceon isn't pretty high too? Is the opportunity cost of Mamoswine either not being immune to Intimidate (Oblivious) or not have an extra resistance to Fire- and Ice-type attacks (Thick Fat) also not pretty high?

To respond to talkingtree's points other points directly, since the above addresses why I think evasion in and of itself isn't so bad that we have to ban it outright:
  • There's no collateral damage to keeping these banned
This is true, there's nothing that would be unbanned from doing this. I'm saying it just isn't broken at all in the first place.
  • I think we need a strong reason to vary our clauses from OU's -- HypnoGrav was one such reason, and now it is not
I personally think the biggest kicker is that Generation VIII tiers don't ban Evasion Abilities, like Yoda pointed out. By the way, Evasion Abilities aren't banned in Generation VII or Generation VI OU metagames either! This is no surprise to me, because those Abilities aren't in any way broken in those tiers, just in the exact same way they haven't been broken in VGC, and how they wouldn't be broken in Doubles OU tiers if they were to be allowed there. Again, this is an antiquated clause carried over from Generation V where Sand Veil Garchomp was annoying in BW Doubles OU and has no place in a modern tier.
  • Evasion, as Mizuhime said, is no fun
Agreed, but I think Rock Slide flinches aren't fun, Cursed Body procs aren't fun, Ally Switch isn't fun, etc. and you could cite dozens of examples of more probable hax effects that will realistically impact a game of DOU, yet are clearly not banworthy.
  • Removing HypnoGrav made our banlist *considerably* simpler, so the value there was much larger than removing a self-explanatory clause that everyone would expect to see
I agree with all but the "everyone would expect to see part", since OU metagames don't have this clause.

The onus is on anyone advocating for removal to explain the value of that decision, and as far as I can tell, the only value is a minimally simplified ruleset, which I don't believe outweighs the points I've made above.
  1. Evasion Abilities are fundamentally not banworthy, as they will rarely impact the outcome of a match when other, more prominent hax effects can but aren't banned.
  2. Max Moves offer 3 turns of guaranteed counterplay to anyone seriously worried about evasion, on every team, as Max Moves ignore accuracy/evasion checks.
  3. It more closely aligns our metagame with that of OU.
  4. Even on its own, I think ruleset simplification is a desired trait and these other points just support it.
 
Last edited:
I have seen in the damage calculator that the damage of spread moves is lower in doubles than it is in singles by about a 25%. I'm going to believe that that is not a bug, so my real question is, why don't people ever talk about this? It is very relevant information that should probably feature in a guide or two.
 

Yuichi

umu!
is a Live Chat Contributor
I have seen in the damage calculator that the damage of spread moves is lower in doubles than it is in singles by about a 25%. I'm going to believe that that is not a bug, so my real question is, why don't people ever talk about this? It is very relevant information that should probably feature in a guide or two.
There is no need to constantly bring this up every time spread moves are mentioned. It is also brought up in the Doubles Overview thread under the section about the differences between singles and doubles formats iirc.
 

DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Battle Stadium Head
I'm going to write about this because I do think it this will become very relevant as people improve on the concept I'm about to present:

So while I was preparing for a DOU game I was looking at ways of making slight improvements to teams I steal from here and on TT (as usual), and decided to look at what kind of tools Mew gets this gen. Then I found it got Imprison as a new move, and I knew what I had to do.

Concept: Imprison + Transform Mew will make one of the opponent's Pokemon completely useless while Mew is on the field. Pairing it with Goth will have one slot of the opponent be completely useless and trapped as it is only capable of clicking Struggle, assuming you position yourself well to have Mew + Goth in on the right turn. Goth can even prevent the struggling Pokemon from self-killing by Heal Pulsing it.

The concept itself not something new. It was possible to do with Smeargle in the past, but given its poor stats, better support Pokemon options, and just better move options for Smeargle itself in general, it has not seen any usage (or at least I haven't witnessed any successful use of it). Mew is on a whole new level concerning all of the above, and so I decided to build a new team around this.

The main concern that I had was that while the Imprisoned mon is not capable of clicking any moves, if the opponent dynamaxes the limitation goes away (like how dyna ignores Disable, Encore, choice lock, etc), so while Smeargle -> Mew was a huge upgrade, the new competitive feature greatly reduces the viability of this strategy...OR SO I THOUGHT. My understanding was that a completely stuggle-locked Pokemon can still Dynamax and use max moves, but in reality, the Pokemon not having any selectable moves skips the dynamax toggle so the opponent is unable to dynamax their way out. (I had no idea because I did zero testing with the team before my game LOL)

So essentially the only counterplay is to dynamax and max move as the Mew transforms, as you are still able to click the dynamax button. This, however, puts the to-be-imprisoned player at a severe disadvantage. First of all, you are pretty much forced to use your dynamax at that time, regardless of whether your gameplan was to use it then or not. Secondly, the Mew user has two options to transform into, and if you dynamax the wrong Pokemon, your other Pokemon becomes struggle-locked. Lastly, the Mew can simply switch out as you dynamax and come back in after your dynamax turns runs out. All of the scenarios present extremely favorable advantages for the Mew player.

Anyway here's the Jail Mew Goth team that I made. It was created with the incorrect understanding of imprisoned dynamax mechanics, which made me sacrifice a lot of resources to take that into account, and the team was whipped up in like 10 minutes so I doubt I'll use this team again anyway.

:mew: Mew @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 8 SpA / 248 SpD
Modest Nature
- Imprison
- Trick Room
- Transform
- Psychic

The concept's keyman. You Imprison, and you Transform, and the opposing Pokemon you transform into becomes completely useless as long as Mew remains on the field. I added Trick Room into this set later as I realized FullRoom can potentially be annoying and Imprison will even stop Hatterene-Indeedee from setting up. Just having a Trick Room option on my side can also come in handy against certain matchups too, so it's extremely flexible. I debated on the last move seeing as the only other potential move I want to Imprison right off the bat was Taunt, but I settled with having Psychic for immediate turn 1 damage output. It also extra messes with Indeedee-Hatterene as with Goth's Taunt the common Indeedee will just auto-struggle without me even having to transform into it LOL.

:gothitelle: Gothitelle @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Taunt
- Heal Pulse
- Helping Hand

The concept's partner. Protect is better off being something else since this was added as a measure to stall out the opponent's Dynamax turns, back when I thought the opponent can dynamax their way out of a imprison-lock. Taunt was mostly just to mess with Indeedee a lot more (see above), but it helps deal with other redirecting Pokemon so that Mew is able to safely choose which Pokemon it transforms into.

:excadrill: Excadrill (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- High Horsepower

:togekiss: Togekiss @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Heat Wave
- Follow Me

Just added standard Excadrill Togekiss because the core is very good. Nothing much to add.

:gastrodon: Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 204 HP / 172 Def / 132 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Scald
- Recover
- Protect

I was a bit sand weak and Dracovish weak so added the slug. This thing is good.

:darmanitan-galar: Darmanitan-Galar (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Ice Punch
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn

I wanted something more for sand, something other than Toge to threaten Ferrothorn, and something with U-Turn to make Mew + Goth positioning easier. Darm was the closest to fit the bill. It's Jolly Max Scarf only so I can outspeed as many Excadrills as possible (and most Excas don't even use this benchmark)

Again, this team was created based on incorrect mechanics knowledge, no testing, and very quickly, so I'm sure the team can be greatly improved. The key takeaway from this post is that Imprison Transform Mew is legit, and makes one of the best Pokemon in the format (imo) even better.
 

Yuichi

umu!
is a Live Chat Contributor
I'm going to write about this because I do think it this will become very relevant as people improve on the concept I'm about to present:

So while I was preparing for a DOU game I was looking at ways of making slight improvements to teams I steal from here and on TT (as usual), and decided to look at what kind of tools Mew gets this gen. Then I found it got Imprison as a new move, and I knew what I had to do.

Concept: Imprison + Transform Mew will make one of the opponent's Pokemon completely useless while Mew is on the field. Pairing it with Goth will have one slot of the opponent be completely useless and trapped as it is only capable of clicking Struggle, assuming you position yourself well to have Mew + Goth in on the right turn. Goth can even prevent the struggling Pokemon from self-killing by Heal Pulsing it.

The concept itself not something new. It was possible to do with Smeargle in the past, but given its poor stats, better support Pokemon options, and just better move options for Smeargle itself in general, it has not seen any usage (or at least I haven't witnessed any successful use of it). Mew is on a whole new level concerning all of the above, and so I decided to build a new team around this.

The main concern that I had was that while the Imprisoned mon is not capable of clicking any moves, if the opponent dynamaxes the limitation goes away (like how dyna ignores Disable, Encore, choice lock, etc), so while Smeargle -> Mew was a huge upgrade, the new competitive feature greatly reduces the viability of this strategy...OR SO I THOUGHT. My understanding was that a completely stuggle-locked Pokemon can still Dynamax and use max moves, but in reality, the Pokemon not having any selectable moves skips the dynamax toggle so the opponent is unable to dynamax their way out. (I had no idea because I did zero testing with the team before my game LOL)

So essentially the only counterplay is to dynamax and max move as the Mew transforms, as you are still able to click the dynamax button. This, however, puts the to-be-imprisoned player at a severe disadvantage. First of all, you are pretty much forced to use your dynamax at that time, regardless of whether your gameplan was to use it then or not. Secondly, the Mew user has two options to transform into, and if you dynamax the wrong Pokemon, your other Pokemon becomes struggle-locked. Lastly, the Mew can simply switch out as you dynamax and come back in after your dynamax turns runs out. All of the scenarios present extremely favorable advantages for the Mew player.

Anyway here's the Jail Mew Goth team that I made. It was created with the incorrect understanding of imprisoned dynamax mechanics, which made me sacrifice a lot of resources to take that into account, and the team was whipped up in like 10 minutes so I doubt I'll use this team again anyway.

:mew: Mew @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 8 SpA / 248 SpD
Modest Nature
- Imprison
- Trick Room
- Transform
- Psychic

The concept's keyman. You Imprison, and you Transform, and the opposing Pokemon you transform into becomes completely useless as long as Mew remains on the field. I added Trick Room into this set later as I realized FullRoom can potentially be annoying and Imprison will even stop Hatterene-Indeedee from setting up. Just having a Trick Room option on my side can also come in handy against certain matchups too, so it's extremely flexible. I debated on the last move seeing as the only other potential move I want to Imprison right off the bat was Taunt, but I settled with having Psychic for immediate turn 1 damage output. It also extra messes with Indeedee-Hatterene as with Goth's Taunt the common Indeedee will just auto-struggle without me even having to transform into it LOL.

:gothitelle: Gothitelle @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Taunt
- Heal Pulse
- Helping Hand

The concept's partner. Protect is better off being something else since this was added as a measure to stall out the opponent's Dynamax turns, back when I thought the opponent can dynamax their way out of a imprison-lock. Taunt was mostly just to mess with Indeedee a lot more (see above), but it helps deal with other redirecting Pokemon so that Mew is able to safely choose which Pokemon it transforms into.

:excadrill: Excadrill (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- High Horsepower

:togekiss: Togekiss @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Heat Wave
- Follow Me

Just added standard Excadrill Togekiss because the core is very good. Nothing much to add.

:gastrodon: Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 204 HP / 172 Def / 132 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Scald
- Recover
- Protect

I was a bit sand weak and Dracovish weak so added the slug. This thing is good.

:darmanitan-galar: Darmanitan-Galar (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Ice Punch
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn

I wanted something more for sand, something other than Toge to threaten Ferrothorn, and something with U-Turn to make Mew + Goth positioning easier. Darm was the closest to fit the bill. It's Jolly Max Scarf only so I can outspeed as many Excadrills as possible (and most Excas don't even use this benchmark)

Again, this team was created based on incorrect mechanics knowledge, no testing, and very quickly, so I'm sure the team can be greatly improved. The key takeaway from this post is that Imprison Transform Mew is legit, and makes one of the best Pokemon in the format (imo) even better.
just wait till dawoblefet sees this and decides skill swap goth + durant would be a good fit on this team :psycry:
 
'Jail Mew' is something I have experimented with in recent weeks although I stopped using it because of opponents using Dynamax to break the lock. DragonWhale's post mentioned Dynamax mechanics that had not occurred on Showdown when I was using Goth + Mew (I have no idea what happens on cartridge). After some experimentation I have found that Imprison has very weird mechanics (on Showdown at least). These mechanics, combined with Dynamax, are not always consistent with what DragonWhale suggested would happen. I think some of these interactions are bugs however I don't know what the intended mechanics are in some of these cases.

Most importantly: Imprison + Transform does not always prevent Dynamaxing (at least on Showdown). To put it briefly: Showdown will not always grey out a sealed move for some reason, allowing you to Dynamax, although weird things happen if you do. Whether Showdown will grey out a move appears to be consistent, although the reason why some moves don't get greyed out is not clear to me.

For the following Replays Accelgor's moveset is Agility + Bug Buzz. Abomasnow's moveset is Aurora Veil + Avalanche. Mew's moveset is Imprison + Transform + Trick Room + Will-o-Wisp. I mentioned any changes to these movesets in battles where I made changes to them.

In this replay Accelgor is copied by a Mew that has used Imprison. Interestingly enough Accelgor cannot select Bug Buzz but can select Agility, despite both moves being Imprisoned. When the Dynamax box is checked Max Guard and Max Flutterby can be selected, however selecting either results in Max Strike failing due to lack of PP. Showdown assures me that this is intended, although I'm not convinced. That message is supposed to display when using a Max move with 0 PP remaining, not using an Imprisoned Max move from a completely different move. Also Accelgor cannot use Max Strike through any of its moves that it knows. On the second and third turn Accelgor can use its max moves freely.

These two replays show the interaction between selecting moves after Dynamaxing. If Abomasnow Dynamaxes on the turn that Mew Transforms then it will be forced to Struggle on the first turn after Dynamax ends, it does not get the option to select a move and have the message 'Abomasnow Can't use its sealed [move]'. However if you wait to Dynamax and Showdown seals all your moves than you will only have the option to Struggle.

Dynamaxing Mew does not seal opposing Max moves

For this replay I gave Mew Agility before Transforming. Accelgor could select Agility, however Showdown would cancel my input with an error message. However because I could select Agility the Dynamax box was able to be ticked. After Dynamaxing Accelgor can still select Agility but will instead Struggle ('Accelgor can't use its sealed Agility' does not happen on the first turn). For whatever reason in all my tests Agility would never be greyed out, even when it clearly was Imprisoned.

I tried giving Accelgor extra moves but all of them were greyed out when Imprisoned, however Agility would still refuse to be greyed out.

I tried using Agility Pikachu to see if Pikachu would be able to select Agility. It was forced to Struggle, meanwhile Agility Accelgor could select Agility but Showdown would cancel the turn with an error message.

In terms of the competitive viability of Imprison + Transform Mew I think its best used on its own, without Gothitelle, and is strongest in the mid/ late game, when potential threats to Mew weakened and the opponent has less options to switch to. Mew + Gothitelle are vulnerable to the same mons, due to sharing the same typing, and the SWSH meta is more offensive than SM was. Mew also has to make the decision between running speed or bulk. If it runs bulk then it must often take damage over 2 turns from the opponent before Transforming. If it runs speed instead then it may struggle to survive long enough to Imprison the opponent for long enough. Of the two options I prefer running speed. Mew is seriously dangerous in the endgame however. Mew instantly wins a 1v1 against anything that doesn't have Taunt and either fails to 2HKO or fails to OHKO and doesn't outspeed Mew. Mew will also turn a 2v2 into a 2v1. Considering Mew is the equal 4th fastest mon in the VR it can be exceedingly difficult to beat late game.
 

MajorBowman

take a sip babes
is a member of the Site Staffis a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Moderator
Doubles Colonel
While Jail Mew is fascinating and I can't wait to be unconsolably angry after to losing to it in SPL, I wanted to drop my thoughts on the evasion abilities clause conversation that was had above.

I was originally pretty against removing this clause because evasion in general is super annoying and I don't really think it has a place in our metagame. Moody was only unbanned because evasion was removed from its possible boosts, and purposefully reintroducing evasion abilities seems like a step backwards in that regard. I get the argument that most evasion ability users have better abilities or are just bad, but I'm not sure that matters philosophically. You make rules to cover for all scenarios and not just the ones that necessitate the rule, so if we think that evasion is unhealthy for the metagame then I think you just block it out in all forms, whether those forms would ever be competitively relevant or even used at all.

To contrast this with the hypnograv clause, I think two of talkingtree's points about the removal of the clauses being different is notable:
  • There's no collateral damage to keeping these banned
  • Removing HypnoGrav made our banlist *considerably* simpler, so the value there was much larger than removing a self-explanatory clause
Hypnograv clause was, for all intents and purposes, a complex ban. Removing such a ban unarguably made the banlist much simpler like talkingtree said, so I personally voted unban largely because it fell more in line with a simple banlist and less so because I didn't think it was unhealthy. Hypnograv sets up some interesting strategies too, where you can support teammates that use ground type pokemon to poke holes in teams that would otherwise be well prepared, leading to a bit more of an interactive element between players during battles. On the other hand, there's really nothing interactive about your opponent sending out Abomasnow Glaceon and you praying to hit Heat Wave; nothing is added to the tier by freeing evasion abilities other than a simpler banlist, but in this case the ban is as simple as can be and doesn't prevent the use of any Pokemon. In other words, every Pokemon with an evasion ability has a different, legal ability that it can use (no collateral damage in tree's post).

I understand that there's now decent counterplay to evasion abilities (setting weather is as easy now as it has ever been between max moves and multiple viable weather setters, max moves never missing, etc), but that still doesn't really change the fact that I think evasion abilities are fundamentally unhealthy and don't really have a place in our metagame. You can make the argument that singles unbanned evasion abilities after weather became non permanent, but you realistically only have 3 turns to abuse evasion abilities in singles since you have to take one turn to set up the weather and one turn to switch to the abuser. You can very easily give your evasion ability user the full 5 turns of weather to start dodging if you switch in the weather setter while the evasion ability mon is already on the field, basically making the effect 66% longer.
Another point: why do we still allow the items Bright Powder and Lax Incense if evasion is so bad? Probably because the opportunity cost of running those items over a more consistent item is too high. But is it really thought that the opportunity cost of running a Glaceon isn't pretty high too? Is the opportunity cost of Mamoswine either not being immune to Intimidate (Oblivious) or not have an extra resistance to Fire- and Ice-type attacks (Thick Fat) also not pretty high?
To address this point specifically, the answer to the first two sentences is basically just "yes." Bright Powder and Lax Incense both have lower boosts to evasion than the abilities and losing the use of an actual item is a huge opportunity cost. There's certainly some kind of opportunity cost in using Glaceon but we already know that fringe Pokemon can do neat things, so I'd argue the opportunity cost of using Glaceon or a "suboptimal" ability on Mamoswine is lower than that of Bright Powder or Lax Incense.

All in all, I don't think the benefits (which admittedly do exist) to removing evasion abilities clause outweighs the possible negatives. Evasion is stupid and unhealthy and I don't think it belongs in DOU.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 3, Guests: 3)

Top