Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Fish Out of Water

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suapah

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Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to suspect test Dracovish.




Dracovish has been a common threat in the Overused metagame since the start of the generation. With use of Fishious Rend, an 85 base power move that doubles in power when attacking first (including on switches), Dracovish has become one of the most fearsome wallbreakers in the OU metagame. Due to Fishious Rend’s absurd power when combined with Dracovish’s ability, Strong Jaw, Dracovish is capable of ripping through even the sturdiest Water-type resists. Its incredible wallbreaking potential has become centralizing in the current metagame, where Fishious Rend switch-ins are few and far between.

Dracovish runs two primary sets in the current metagame: Choice Scarf and Choice Band. A Choice Scarf boosts Dracovish’s speed, often ensuring that it will move first, gaining a power boost against offensive Pokemon that it would otherwise be unable to defeat. On the other hand, the Choice Band set trades the speed and revenge killing potential of the Choice Scarf set for incredible wallbreaking power. The set has no true counters and is capable of nearly 2HKOing the bulkiest Water-type resists, such as Ferrothorn and Toxapex.

The Choice Scarf set is an absolute headache for offensive teams to deal with, outspeeding and OHKOing common Pokemon that can normally take neutral attacks, such as Togekiss and Jirachi. Choice Scarf Dracovish outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame bar Zeraora and Dragapult, making it very difficult to check, as a very fast Pokemon that also functions as a wallbreaker against offensive teams especially. Common offensive Pokemon that do not get OHKOed, such as Choice Scarf Hydreigon and Dragapult, are not capable of taking multiple hits from Dracovish, essentially rendering them to be one time switch-ins. Slower offensive Pokemon, such as Kyurem and Life Orb Hydreigon, are 2HKOed, so they cannot safely switch into Dracovish at all, and offensive teams are hard pressed to limit Dracovish from switching in.

The Choice Band set is arguably the most powerful wallbreaker in the tier, shredding through balanced teams that have few Pokemon that can outspeed and revenge kill it. This set is bewilderingly powerful, nearly 2HKOing even the sturdiest resists, such as Ferrothorn and Toxapex. Offensive resists that can act as a one time switch for Choice Scarf sets are incapable of switching into Choice Band as they are susceptible to getting OHKOd with minimal prior damage. For any non-resist, Choice Band Dracovish is capable of OHKOing the entire tier.

However, Dracovish is not a perfect Pokemon by any means. Dracovish’s middling speed stat means that it is slower than most offensive Pokemon when using the Choice Band set and also means that it fails to outspeed the fastest threats in the metagame, namely Zeraora and Dragapult, even with a Choice Scarf boost. As a result, Fishious Rend isn’t doubled in power, making it considerably weaker and failing to do enough damage to opposing Pokemon. This can even be abused by defensive Pokemon, such as Baneful Bunker Toxapex, which can use Baneful Bunker multiple times in a row due to the decreased power of Fishious Rend even when it fails. Additionally, Dracovish’s admittedly mediocre base 90 attack stat means that its coverage moves are very weak compared to a boosted Fishious Rend, making it difficult to defeat checks like Seismitoad and Toxapex (when using the Choice Scarf set) without prediction. Finally, Dracovish is almost always restricted by being choiced, meaning that Water immune Pokemon can take advantage of it nicely and it can be prediction reliant in some of the aforementioned match-ups or stopped by Protect.

Nevertheless, Dracovish’s incredible power coupled with its ability to threaten both offensive and defensive teams is incredibly centralizing, necessitating the use of very specific counterplay, such as Water Absorb Seismitoad and Rocky Helmet Draco Meteor Kommo-o. Additionally, almost every reasonably sturdy resist in the tier, chief among them being Ferrothorn and Toxapex, is forced to maximize its physical bulk in order to stand a chance against Dracovish, and even with maximized physical bulk, Toxapex sometimes even runs Baneful Bunker in order to prevent Choice Band Dracovish from defeating it. Even with a defensive check, many teams are still forced to run Zeraora, Dragapult, or Choice Scarf Hydreigon in order to have a Pokemon capable of revenge killing Choice Scarf Dracovish.

Overall, Dracovish imposes a huge restriction on teambuilding. Not only are there minimal Water resists, but many Water resists that do exist cannot consistently switch into Dracovish. Dracovish arguably warps the metagame in an unhealthy manner by limiting both flexibility and creativity in teambuilding. Due to how difficult it is to consistently handle, the aforementioned examples are some of the only effective methods of counterplay available. Due to all of these factors combined, the OU council has deemed Dracovish worthy of a suspect test.




  • To achieve voting requisites, you must reach a minimum GXE of 82 with a minimum of 40 games played on the Pokemon Showdown! OverUsed (OU) ladder
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTZ. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUTZ SUAPAH.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Dracovish, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until May 31st at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:



  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should he common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
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    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leader, Finchinator, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!
 

Finchinator

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Just a reminder about our name policy for alts:
Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
This includes any alts mocking or impersonating banned users. We have 0 tolerance directed towards this.
 

Finchinator

We'll be a fine line
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
BW Circuit Champion
The OU tiering council wrote up blurbs with their thoughts on Dracovish.

coming soon

coming soon

Dracovish introduced centralization in a form unlike any we've experienced before. Overcentralizing Pokemon tend to have multiple disparate sets that fluctuate in viability as the metagame evolves; in such cases, it is prudent to exercise more caution when considering a suspect because if multiple sets are independently viable at the same time, it can make a Pokemon seem more unreasonable in the short-term than it actually will be in the long-term. Dracovish is different because it has only two sets, both of which are checked by the same set of Pokemon, yet it has consistently constrained teambuilding to the same degree as a multi-threat Pokemon. We have seen Dracovish enter a lull in usage pre-Home only to resurge afterwards; at this point, it is reasonable to assume that it is capable of withstanding metagame shifts and therefore must always be accounted for in building. The question now is if we are okay with letting it impact SS teambuilding in the way it does now, that is, mandating the use of Seismitoad (or Gastrodon) or multiple selections from its small pool of checks (a small assortment of physically defensive Water resists coupled with a small selection of faster Pokemon). I find this pool of responses to be too restricted and believe banning Dracovish would be the best course of action.

I will be voting ban on Dracovish for this upcoming suspect. I have stated my thoughts plenty of times in the metagame discussion thread and even recently on my YouTube channel here, but will summarize it here. While the metagame does have a handful of checks to Dracovish, I do not think I can confidently label them as counters and there really is no "playing around" Dracovish given how rewarding a boosted Fisheous Rend can be. This nature of play makes Dracovish incredibly restrictive as you essentially need one of Seismitoad, PDef Ferrothorn, PDef Toxapex, or a fringe viable Pokemon like Gastrodon. The only "midground" checks are things like RH Kommo-O, which can still be 2HKOd given the right circumstances. A lot of Pokemon offer at least some room for outplaying and do not have such a black-and-white impact on teambuilding and gameplay, but in Dracovish's case we know what's coming and it's ridiculously effective and warps teambuilding singlehandedly (arguably singlemovedly, if you will). I do not think there is a place for a Pokemon with such a presence in the metagame and I hope that removing it can help open up teambuilding moving forward.

Being one of the main users who pushed for a Dracovish ban inside the council, I despise having this Pokémon in the metagame because it's one of the main unhealthy factors that restrain teambuilding in general. Unlike many of the hard hitters of current OU, Dracovish isn’t weak to Stealth Rock, has both decent typing and bulk, and most importantly requires no prediction game mainly thanks to the absurd move that is Fishious Rend. This means that unless you’re gambling on your opponent not utilizing it, you’re pretty much stuck with having a Water Absorb Pokémon in every team, Physically Defensive Ferrothorn or Toxapex, or some sort of niche Pokémon that will end up being a liability in different game occasions. To me Dracovish as a Pokémon also fails to be a a positive presence in general, as it’s not a specific check to any real relevant threat or playstyle, which leaves us only with negatives that feel too toxic to contain.

I believe Dracovish should be banned and I will be voting to ban Dracovish. Despite Dracovish being a one-dimensional Pokemon, essentially clicking Fishious Rend most the time, it places a huge burden on teambuilding. Due to the sheer power of Fishious Rend, Dracovish in the current metagame necessitates strong “counters” to keep Dracovish in line. As mentioned in the OP, there are very few Pokemon that can reliably switch into Dracovish several times. Some Pokemon mentioned in the opening thread include Rocky Helmet Kommo-o, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and Water Absorbers such as Seismitoad and Gastrodon. However, all the “counters” mentioned (besides the Water Absorbers) are susceptible to nearly being 2HKOd by a Choice Band Fishious Rend. As a result, non-Water Absorber teams are often required to also bring a Pokemon that can reliably revenge kill Dracovish such as Dragapult and Hydreigon. I believe this situation is problematic. Solely due to Dracovish’s presence, all teams must either run a Water Absorber or a strong water resist along with a reliable revenge killer. With all this considered, I feel that Dracovish negatively warps the metagame and places a huge strain in the teambuilder. I adamantly believe that by banning Dracovish, it will allow for a more diverse and flexible tier.

Dracovish, while not as common as Pokemon like Clefable and Corviknight, it has the biggest presence. Seismitoad's astronomical usage can largely be attributed towards Dracovish's existence, not its viability to cover other metagame threads. I'm not going to detail you about how strong Dracovish is; I presume anyone reading this knows how mindbogglingly powerful it is. But its presence is unparalleled. Teams without a Water immune will often find themselves with a loss against a Dracovish in the hands of a remotely competent player. Things like Toxapex are forced to run Baneful Bunker just to not autolose, Ferrothorn has to run absolute max defense and HP to switch in once safely, even more niche Water Absorb Pokemon see usage, all because of Dracovish.

I am a bit on the fence on this. Despite the fact most of this is pro-ban, Dracovish has its faults. Either its slow or it struggles to break things without an extra boost. It needs Rain support to get past some defense things. It has to run a niche set with Substitute to get past Toxapex and not do nothing after it switches out. Despite having a Scarf, it's still slower than Dragapult and Zeraora. The list goes on.

However, at the moment I would say I lean towards voting ban. Dracovish's presence absolutely restricts the tools this tier has to offer. There is no doubt that a tier without it would free up creativity and teambuilding significantly, and would lead to something that is probably more fun to build in. This isn't reason alone to vote ban, but, quite frankly, this Pokemon is insane.
 

Ausma

d-d-d-d-d-d-d-doin' your mom
is a Pre-Contributor
Before I begin my thoughts, I want to make it clear that I don’t believe that Dracovish itself is broken. It’s been shown that there is adequate counterplay, however, regardless, I don’t believe this suspect is here to argue that, but rather what Dracovish has made the metagame do to contain the contents of its power.

:ss/dracovish:

Dracovish, the ungodly fish boy, is finally in the running for a suspect. What is there to say about it that we don't already know? Fishious Rend + Strong Jaw is an unholy combo which has rocked the tier to its core, and with it, the whole of the Gen 8 OU metagame it is surrounded by. It goes without saying that it shreds all neutral or Water weak targets, and so effectively so that it has completely transformed the landscape of the tier.

Ever since we discovered that Fishious Rend was affected by Strong Jaw, the metagame was taken by storm. People panicked, searching for water immunities or defensive checks to handle it, and the good news is that that was successful, at least, so it seemed. That leaves the question: what has resulted of Dracovish’s influence?

  • Ferrothorn running max Defense
  • Toxapex running max Defense
  • Toxapex running Baneful Bunker
  • Kommo-o running Draco Meteor/Rocky Helmet
  • Water immunities being highly encouraged

At a glance, these examples seem fine. The metagame has simply adapted to its raw strength, and despite said strength, there are adequate ways to combat it. However, given how long it’s been, we’ve grown complacent to its power, and forced ourselves to slap a soft-check or an immunity onto our teams just for it. The metagame has become used to this idea that if you will get thrashed by Vish if you don’t have one of these things to handle it, and in that lies the fundamental problem of Dracovish: overcentralization.

As I mentioned in the metagame discussion thread, Seismitoad is easily the best example of what has come of Dracovish’s influence. Currently in the OU VR, it is now a sub-tier higher than when I originally posted about it, sitting comfortably at A+ despite having been a mediocre Pokemon for 3 generations straight beforehand. It’s great, of course, because it compresses a Rocker, a Ground type, a Water type, and--most prominently--a water immunity. Allow me to ask: since when was having a water immunity a major factor in a Pokemon’s success? The answer is never until Gen 8. Seismitoad’s success is easily the best example, but Ferropex both run Phys def heavily in part to check Dracovish, worsening their defensive potential as a whole, namely against the infamous OU breaker Kyurem. As a testament to how menacing Strong Jaw Fishious Rend actually is, when Dracovish’s power first surfaced, many people searched for niche Water Absorb Pokemon simply to act as a check to Dracovish, and in doing so, dampened the potential in teambuilding that lies in this metagame simply to harbor its immense power and revenge killing capabilities.

However, that begs the question of what exactly determines overcentralization versus power. To me, overcentralization is when Pokemon are so powerful that they warp the metagame around themselves and their strength. Gen 7 Landorus-Therian is a good example of a Pokemon that’s simply powerful as opposed to overcentralizing; it was naturally checked by a lot of things that were normally run anyway, and despite how splashable and great it was, natural counterplay was far and wide. The issue with things like Dracovish are that they highly encourage metagame trends toward one direction all by themselves, when trends should be determined by the whole of the meta as opposed to one single thing.

With all of this in mind, what has come of the metagame? We are now in a balance-infested, incredibly stagnant metagame, where innovating is astronomically difficult and arguably even risky. If you try to innovate in order to combat the dominance of balance, you run the risk of being completely dismantled by Dracovish. If you use Pokemon to combat Dracovish, you get thrashed by common metagame breakers, and thanks to the generally lower defensive level for this reason, the breakers that are otherwise fairly manageable grow difficult to combat and are arguably banworthy. Despite how Clefable may arguably be an issue, I feel Dracovish is the bigger issue at the moment for what it’s forced the metagame and teambuilding to become in order for Clef's dominance to be so polarizing to begin with.

All in all, because of how Dracovish has forced the metagame to fold to its power and force use of specific sets/Pokemon, I believe it is a far too centralizing force for the tier, and a ban is warranted.

e: thank you finch very cool
 
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Sayuze

Banned deucer.
Dracovish has been controversial ever since the release of SS, but within the recent months building up to this point, I believe people have seriously began to realize how broken Dracovish is.

The biggest problem with it is that is *extremely* restrictive in teambuilding. In all honesty, if you don't have a Seismitoad or a Toxapex with Baneful Bunker, you're never truly safe against it defensively which is very frustrating. Otherwise, you're susceptible to a high-reward, practically zero-risk attack in getting Fishious Rended. This insane move, paired with STAB, Strong Jaw, and often a Choice Band is an attack the likes that have never been witnessed in any OU before. The calcs are ridiculous, I don't think I need to list a bunch of them, but the most noteable ones are doing ~50% to Max Phys Def Ferro/Pex, and OHKOing pretty much anything slower than it / any switch in. Scarf is also good, being able to do massive amounts of damage (only being outsped by pretty much Dragapult or Zeraora) and even if it manages to miss OHKOs on certain things like Corviknight , how can such an outright powerful thing even be allowed in the first place?

Arguments in favour of keeping Vish are mainly that it punishes stall or bulkier playstyles, and this is a bad argument. Fishious Rend as I mentioned before is an extremely high-reward no-risk move, and it is virtually without punishment to click -- nothing can take advantage of it, or setup on it. This is in a sense uncompetitive.

SS is kind of in a balance state, metagame wise, revolving around positioning yourself for a win condition through various important turns, which I don't think is wrong (this is kinda another discussion though), but I think that Vish is very punishing of this and this shouldn't be at all. With Vish removed, I feel like it will definitely allow for more variety and will stop overcentrilization of mons that have huge usage simply to check just it. It's not like people are using teams without a Water-resist, it is simply that it is ridiculously strong.

I will definitely be voting for ban.
 
After reading carefully all the opinions I have seen on this topic, it is clear that Dracovish will be banned. Probably if he has survived for that long in SWSH metagame is because all the ban that we have had here before (Dynamax, G-Darm, Arena Trap, Melmetal...)
It is so obvious that there are few reasons for Dracovish to stay in. He has built a whole niche in OU meta for Water Absorbers (mainly Seismitoad for role compression) and I’ve seen more FerroPex cores than ever on balance or even offensive teams. That excessive adaptation to Dracovish leaves gaps on many teams, so other wall breakers hitting on the Special way (Specs Kyurem and Aegislash as main examples) are having a party this meta too.
As my personal opinion, I have to admit that I hate banning stuff, because always when we ban something broken, a new danger automatically appears, so at some point we have to stop banning stuff and that results being unfair with some mons. After all the bans that we have suffered this gen, what will be next? WishTele Clefable? Will Sand extend his power even more now? The list can be longer.
All in all, as we are now at this point of the development of meta, banning Dracovish is the only option that we have, due to it’s power and how strong is his influence in the whole OU meta
 

Zneon

lets go team
is a Live Chat Contributor

Dracovish

Aight Vishcake, so I have always found Dracovish a very cool mon but its effect on the tier has really never stopped ever since the beginning in my opinion, and I wanted this to happen for quite a while now, so I will give my opinion on Dracovish and why it's a very unhealthy presence for the tier.

1. Its lack of consistent defensive answers.

Dracovish has a lack of consistent answers, the only Pokemon that can consistently switch into it is Seismitoad and Baneful Bunker Toxapex, Ferrothorn can switch into it but not more than once or twice, since it can be worn down fairly quickly unless you are using Teleport Clefable, which can also be overpowered by Vish. The point is that Dracovish's checks are very limited, Fishious Rend is an absurdly strong, no-risk move that can pretty much force a switch on any Pokemon slower than it, and if you do not have a Vish check, you are going to lose a Pokemon every single time it switches in. This lack of defensive answers make you weaker to other threats, such as Kyurem or Zeraora as well, which brings it too..

2. Dracovish has a clear impact on teambuilding regardless if you're battling it or not.

Considering that Dracovish has a very small pool of checks, it's like you always have to bring one of them in order for Vish not to click Fishious Rend through your team. Seismitoad is tied #3 in OUPL and #5 on the ladder, which one of its biggest roles right now is switching into Vish. Pex and Ferro are forced to run Physdef because without it it's no longer a switch into Vish. It's influence in teambuilding is incredibly unhealthy. Now normal centralization is never bad, as developing ways of playing around a centralizing Pokemon will make it a fine fit in a tier, however when a Pokemon lacks ways of being checked or countered to the point where you have to bring a small pool of checks because of that Pokemon then that's unhealthy and a horrible presence in the teambuilder, which is the influence that Dracovish has on the tier. However, if that wasn't enough, I feel my biggest reason to why Dracovish should banned is.

3. Dracovish is unhealthy to the development of the tier.

This has happened ever since pre-DLC where Seismitoad was run a whole lot because of its lack of defensive counterplay and many months later not a lot has really changed with checking Vish. I feel Dracovish is a Pokemon that is not only unhealthy to teambuilding but also unhealthy to the development of the tier, as it forces people to use the same Pokemon and forcing the same pool of mons to be considered in an attempt to make Dracovish more manageable, this is because of the fact that it is low-risk as it can always force switches due to Fishious Rend and its decent bulk, allowing it to warp the metagame around it with both Band & Scarf. I feel that its ban will make the metagame more diverse as teambuilding will be less constricted without the overcentralization of Vish.

With all that being said. Dracovish will only continue to make the metagame static, its ban will only make the tier more healthy. Ban it
 
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Alright so, I've been pushing for a Dracovish suspect for a while, so I'm glad its finally happening and I'll give my thoughts here.

Since the beginning Dracovish stood out to me as something that made team building just so restricted and this is entirely due to the broken move that is Fishious Rend. This ridiculous 170BP move with 100% Accuracy, boosted by STAB and Strong Jaw basically required an immunity. While mons like Pult can outspeed, it still isn't switching in, and with Pivot moves such as Voltturn and Teleport Clef, Dracovish can get in fairly safe against something and just force a sack with Fishious Rend. Unlike Arctovish, Dracovish isn't Stealth Rock weak, has a good typing, and its bulk usually means it can live one non SE hit even uninvested which just adds to the problem. Dracovish does have counters however, but these counters are so few, and even those can fall in certain situations. While Seis does have other uses in the meta, other Water Absorb mons like Gastrodon only really see use or consideration due to how necessary they are just so teams don't autolose to Dracovish

One problem I have with Dracovish is just how so little counterplay exists for it. For mons in the past like choiced Hoopa, it was a threat but there was at least some counterplay. With Dracovish we all what move is coming, and I feel like Dracovish is something that either has to be Hard Walled or you just lose from team preview, and I don't feel its something this meta needs. It comes with no risk and no prediction without a Water Absorb mon. While there are pokemon like Toxapex and Ferrothorn, they just don't handle Dracovish in rain, especially if banded. Even with something like Seis, battles just feel like a 5v5 or even a 5v6, as you can't risk Seis getting damaged, and they either won't switch in Dracovish much in return, or you have to constant 50/50s hoping that the one time you don't go Seis to preserve its health, they click Rend and kill something which is something I feel the meta can do without.

Nail in the coffin is definitely how restricting it makes teambuilding. Now I don't feel its the only culprit, but it is the worse offender. Teams that aren't HO are forced to use a tiny selection of about 4 or 5 viable mons, and then just others which are less viable. This makes teambuilding feel so restrictive as bar Seis, the other mons aren't as splashable on a team and I also feel this has led to a very stale metagame full of similar teams. I will be voting to ban if I get Reqs, Dracovish just doesn't do anything good for the meta, and I really feel it has no place here.
 

McCoolDude

is a Community Leaderis a Live Chat Contributor
Community Leader
I like adding my thoughts to these threads, but with Vish, I struggle to come up with anything that isn't obvious to anyone who has played the tier - certainly nothing that hasn't been said in this thread. Fisheous rend combined with strong jaw is a dumb move that necessitates either a full immunity or a high-physical-defense mon that resists water and is fully invested in defense. If you don't have those things, you're probably getting OHKO'd, or at the very least, 2HKO'd.

I don't want to post a bunch of calcs because that's been done about this very mon about 40 times in every thread that it is mentioned in, but for reference: banded (boosted) fisheous rend hits harder than modest zard Y's fire blast in sun, banded double iron bash, banded hyperspace fury, +1 zacian-C's behemoth blade, Primal Kyogre's water spout, and a host of other powerful wallbreakers using their strongest attacks. In fact, many of those banded wallbreakers output similar damage to Vish's scarf set. Without an incredibly strong water resist or a straight immunity, fisheous rend will claim a mon every time Vish hits the field against something slower than it, which is fairly easy to do with voltteleturn teams.

I will point out that toad isn't even a consistent answer to Vish, as outrage is a pretty consistent 2HKO.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 217-256 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keep in mind that a fairy coming in to outrage will disrupt the move, so if you don't have ferrothorn, you probably can't properly punish a YOLO outrage.
 
Hey, first post on smogon.

I may not be the best at Gen 8 OU but everyone knows about Vish. The thing is definitely overcentrilizing to the point of a suspect. It can just click the Rend button with no remorse. At first I thought this thing had its answers but over time that opinion has changed. It can steam roll the common walls to other mons like clef, rachi and kiss. It solidly 2HKOs anything that resists. The only true checks are things that are immune to rend like toad. Even toad doesn't want to take a STAB outrage to the face.

At this point I think Vish has become too overcentrilizing, and I know this is a common opinion at this point, but the funny fish should get banned.
 

xDanyul

Absolute Bruh Moment
is a Tiering Contributor
As much as I love Dracovish as a Pokemon, I personally think it needs to go.

There are a plethora of issues in OU, but few are as controversial as not just the Pokemon itself, but the move that Dracovish sports. Fishious Rend is a move like no one has ever seen. Bolt Beak is similar, sure, but the fact of the matter is that it is a lot easier to find counters to the electric typing, especially in OU. Hippowdon is a prevalent Pokemon regardless of Dracozolt existing. So with all these checks and counters to Beak, why is Rend an issue?
Rend creates a multitude of issues in the tier. First, it requires you to run a Water Absorb team member most of the time. There are other "checks" to Rend, but the fact of the matter is that Toxapex is the only one that has any type of longevity, and even then, it can still be dealt with by the proper team/hazards on the field. One poorly timed crit and the opponent will have lost a Pokemon every time something slower comes in. This brings me to my next point.
Defensive Pokemon are entirely invalidated by Dracovish and Rend. Banded Dracovish can be survived by few Pokemon, and if it is, they are high defense Pokemon with considerable invest. I bring this situation to mind. I was playing a game and brought my Corviknight in on an opposing Corviknight so I could attempt to Defog away some hazards that would be an issue towards my late game. The opposing Corviknight proceeded to Bulk Up. Normally you'd try and assess what steps you need to take to make sure that the Bulk Ups don't spiral out of control, however, I had Dracovish in the back with a Choice Band, and simply opted to ignore the threat in front of me. I got my Defog off, and even with 3 bulk ups, I swapped into Dracovish and comfortably 2KO'd.
Situations like this force teams into bringing Pokemon that would otherwise be lower tiered into the top used area. Seismitoad is by no means a bad Pokemon, but there is little reason for it to be among the top in terms of usage. Dracovish spurs the meta to make it so you have to consider this Pokemon almost every time if you want a viable balance/bulkier team. Faster teams can deal with a banded Dracovish more, and there are 2 pokemon in Zeraora and Dragapult that can outspeed even Choice Scarf. The balanced and bulky teams will always have an issue though. Momentum based moves are easy to come by, and with the new and improved teleport this generation, it is easier than ever to get your Dracovish in on the appropriate Pokemon to secure the OHKOs you need.
 
Happy posting to everyone, including user Is Dracovish Banned Yet?

e: apparently the below poster was spamming refresh waiting for this moment and tbh I'm quite impressed LOL
The below image will be Dracovish's final sight on May 31st:

1589906004550.png


I wake up every morning and I ask myself, Is Dracovish banned yet? The answer has been no for too long.

At first, I tirelessly laddered with Dracovish teams using various nicknames for it including "BAN THIS PLEASE and "NEEDS TO BE BANNED" etc, as a form of peaceful protest inspired of the teachings of Gandhi.

When that was not effective enough, I created an account born with a single purpose like a Meeseek from Rick and Morty. And what happens to Meeseeks when they are not able to accomplish their singular task? They go crazy. They loose their minds, or as they say EXISTENCE IS PAIN... so long as Dracovish remains not banned.
1589907464412.png

As a result I have spent my quarantine shitposting in these forums, from the metagame thread, to complaining in the Melmetal suspect thread, to galvanize the troops - everyone in this thread - against the enemy. I have humorously wondered why Dracovish was never nominated for the Next Best Thing thread. And occasionally, I have pretended to add genuine content to the forums so as to avoid being banned (which I feel I may be close to) by posting about crappy pokemon like Vikavolt, who is still undoubtedly more viable than Pangoro.

Why? When I first played this metagame, I started out with balance because that is the best way to learn. What checks what. What counters what. Patch up your holes and throw in a sweeper and/or wallbreaker without creating too many weaknesses on the team. I had trouble, time and time again, with Dracovish. The only way to stop him was to use Pex + Ferro, for either by themselves would get beat by a good Vish player, but together my team would hold strong... SO I THOUGHT. Even then I lost to some crafty semi-rain teams, where the sheer power of Fishious Rend ran a train through both Pex and Ferrothorn...........and the worst part of all..... the truest of divine comedy.... it allowed me to get swept by a Swift Swim Seismitoed.

Then I started using Dracovish myself. I'll be honest, he's not a cheat code like Kyurem-B. An inexperienced player with Dracovish vs. a good player with Toed, I give the advantage to the good player every time. As I got used to him better, I started to laugh when I saw a Toxapex or Ferrothorn in preview. Even more, I laughed when I didn't see them. Vish would do its job, get 2-3 kills, and set up for a Zeraora/Dragapult/Cliche Offensive Threat sweep.

Now as a user Dracovish, I've become hyper aware of teams' forced over-preparation for Vish. It is not ridiculous to see cores that have Toed, Ferro, and Pex - ALL THREE WTF. Seeing 2 is very common. If you have just one, it has to be Toed, and you have to be a good player. Baneful bunker pex? Lol, very easy to scout and outplay because Pex is backed into a corner. Rocky helmet Ferro? You were hoping to save that to stop [cliche offensive threat]... too bad. Dracovish wins at team preview. There is less strategy when he is involved. I know when he will win me the game, and I know when I can suicide-sack him. CB outrage still nails Toed and good Vish teams will capitalize on when an opponent sacks Toed/Ferro etc. Dracovish shines the most on u-turn based teams that create momentum. Consider these common switch-ins: Clefable, Corviknight, Conkelldurr, Hippo, Aegislash, Rotom-H, Mandibuzz. Unless you have Toed, a u-turn on any of those pokemon is a free kill for Vish. Guess who learns u-turn? Pelliper. Who in the S tier has a momentum based move? oh wait, all of them. Clefable has teleport, Rotom-H has volt switch, and Corviknight has u-turn.

The time has come. The 4 coffin dancers are pre-gaming as we speak, preparing for the glorious day when we can rid us of the foul beast. All of that has resulted in my belief that in order to preserve flexibility in teambuilding options the best way to do this is a complex ban of using Dracovish with the move Fishious Re-



SIKE. BAN
 
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I think that the metagame will be able to breathe a little bit once this ban likely goes through. The default choice to run Seismitoad over a plethora of SR users that are just generally better due to its utility against Dracovish has constrained the metagame such that teams cannot reasonably handle Zeroara, Kyurem and Conkeldurr with their defensive cores. Going with something that's generally a better Vish check, like Vaporeon or Gastrodon, does nothing to ameliorate this issue. This also unquestionably impacts the offensive metagame, as every rain sweeper outside of Ludicolo just gets endlessly walled by the Vish check of choice. I feel Vish is easily the main culprit in encouraging nasty Clefable + Seismitoad + Corviknight balance cores that make playing in the current metagame a bit stale. The Banded set makes fairly quick work of perennial Rain checks like Toxapex and Ferrothorn.
 
Alright since I have finished reqs, I want to post my thoughts on this metagame
First off, SS OU is incredibly stale.
Halfway through, and I wanted to quit, since you were essentially facing the same 9 or so mons in circulation.
Pex, toad, clef, corv, heattom, ferro, zeraora, conkeldurr, kyurem, and of course, mr fish himself.
But i sincerely believe dracovish does not deserved to be banned.
Ok, serious post here.
Dracovish is extremely overcentralizing, and while it is definitely not broken on paper, it's not broken in practice either. Others have reiterated this countless times, but the reason it's getting a suspect is because of the strain in the teambuilder. Not only, that it was ways to muscle past conventional vish answers.
Toad gets worn down constantly, and gets 2hkoed by banded outrage, Jellicent gets bopped by crunch (not that it was thing), Mantine also gets 2hkoed by banded outrage, and ferro lacks recovery, also forcing it to run rocky helmet in order to punish vish sufficiently. Pex is semi reliable, but being forced to run physdef is easily capitalized on by pokemon like Aegislash, and you must constantly be healthy enough to take 2 rends and the strain of pulling this off in practice is much harder then it sounds.
Therefore, I will be voting ban

honestly fuck this metagame, i'm going back to natdex, peace.
 
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WANTED:
:ss/dracovish:
DEAD OR ALIVE

In all seriousness, I want to talk about this guy - one that I've seen used quite a bit, and trust me when I say this guy is the definition of the "ha ha ha ha [insert stupid powerful move here] go boom boom" because all vish has to do is to click Fisheous Rend and someone's gonna die. I feel like this is already making it very unhealthy, but since I wanted to avoid termination, I'll just go in-depth why Dracovish should be given the boot and fired ASAP.

First, Dracovish lacks reliable answers, and what little answers it has defensively are destroyed due to the sheer amount of pokemon that destroys those counters. Dracovish's Strong Jaw-boosted Fisheous Rends are already bad enough, but then imagine you're facing a stall team. Stall teams are known for... well, stalling offensive threats, and as such tend to not care about speed investment that much. Then put Dracovish into the combo. If you don't have a Seismitoad or Baneful Bunker Toxapex, let's face it, you're probably fucked. And while there are other counters (max Def Ferro, Rocky Helmet+Draco Meteor Kommo-o, max Def Toxapex, that sort of jabberwocky), none of these can switch in more than once. Is this healthy for OU, having such a tight pool of viable pokemon you must run to check this thing, lest Dracovish rips your team apart to shreds? Absolutely not.

I feel like this is unhealthy for the same reasons as Melmetal - so few things check it, and what few things do check it have sufficient amounts of pokemon that not just check it but also synergize very well with Dracovish. Take Seismitoad, for example - it proves a great check to Dracovish given it runs PhysDef sets and has Water Absorb, meaning Dracovish cannot spam Fisheous Rend as easily against it, and chances are its coverage moves will do moot against it. But take a look at what pokemon check Seismitoad - we got Hydreigon, Aegislash, Kyurem, Choice Specs Dragapult, etc.. The first 2 maybe don't synergize well with Dracovish, but Kyurem is easily one of the best partners with Dracovish thanks to Freeze Dry.

Dracovish warps the current meta to insane levels, possibly even more than Clefable. Having to run Seismitoad on every team pretty much means you're incapable of running other pokemon that handle the offensive behemoths in Kyurem, Zeraora, and Terrakion, and this is shown in the OUPL usage stats. Seismitoad is basically top 3 right now, and this is because of how much Dracovish is being used - the fish is literally in #5 usage. Toxapex and Ferro have to run PhysDef sets, for without them, they'd be dead. This is just really unhealthy for the metagame, but this isn't even the worst part about Dracovish. Unlike Clefable, which you have to run on every team for the sake of being Uber-tier good, you have to run the same mons and EV spreads on every team, which makes the meta just feel real stale and in general unfun. This is exactly why I quit OU except for the roomtours. This guy is fucking insane, both Band and Scarf are too good at what they do and this makes the meta just feel stale and unfun to play.

Although I am not getting reqs, if I were to successfully get reqs, I'd vote BAN. Dracovish is Clefable-levels of stupid and centralizing but in one of the worst ways possible. That's all I can say.

Peace, and I hope Dracovish burns in hell.
- War Incarnate.​
 

Finchinator

We'll be a fine line
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Ok, serious post here.
Dracovish is extremely overcentralizing, and while it is definitely not broken on paper, it's not broken in practice either. Others have reiterated this countless times, but the strain in the teambuilder is enough to warrant a ban.
Sir, this is exactly what makes it broken both on paper and in practice.

Tiering Policy said:
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
The fact that there is no real hard counterplay to Dracovish besides just going hard Seismitoad (or Ferrothorn) and praying you can wall it long enough and they won't take advantage of obvious play patterns. Nothing else is this good at warping teambuilding or negating skillful play. While I agree with your ultimate opinion of voting ban, the way you frame it is very inconsistent with the tiering framework and logic we apply to each tiering decision. I would strongly recommend giving the tiering policy framework a read to anyone curious or uncertain on these matters.
 
The fact that Seismitoad is usually the first thing you slap on your team (not because it is a good rocker in the current meta) says enough about how centralizing this thing is. Dracovish has literally no counter play bar Baneful Bunker max Defence Pex, Absorber or something that outspeeds it which happen to be a scarfed Dragon, a Formula-1 Dragon and an Electric type. This suspect is long overdue, and hopefully this'll open up some more variety in teambuilding. We must not forget this is only 50% of the cause of this stale meta though, although that is a totally different discussion.
 
In my opinion, this suspect has been a long time coming. The lack of counters along with the fact that a team in OU is required to have a Dracovish counter to succeed shouldn’t be allowed. It has maybe 4 good counters, all of which need specific EVs, moves, and natures to counter it. This leads to not only a centralizing meta game in the form of Dracovish but also a centralizing meta in the form of its counters. Without Dracovish, people have 1-2 teams slots they can fill with new and original ideas, not just a Dracovish counter and maybe Dracovish itself. Dracovish counters often can’t stand up to other offensive threats like Life Orb Clefable, Flame Orb Conk, or Aegislash. On the off-chance someone does not have a Dracovish, these Dracovish counters are nearly useless from my experience.
 
Listing calcs of what Dracovish OHKOs and 2HKOs has become so commonplace at this point that everyone just ignores them. It's common knowledge that Dracovish kills your mons with Fishious Rend. Its ability to OHKO your entire team with just one move is just accepted at the moment, because everyone knows that this tier has about four things that can avoid the 2HKO from Dracovish and about three of those things only do so because they're immune to Fishious Rend in the first place. This is a huge red flag on its own.

Dracovish has no true "counters" barring Gastrodon. Seismitoad is the best Dracovish check in the tier, but it lacks reliable recovery and eventually gets worn down by repeated hits from it (or you just double into a Toxic user and put Toad on a hard-timer anyway). Gastrodon can at least Recover in its face, but Gastrodon is also a huge momentum sap that doesn't have a lot of variety itself.

Walls are running absurd amounts of Defense over Special Defense for the express purpose of not getting cleanly 2HKOed by Fishious Rend despite them resisting the move.

I don't necessarily agree with the timing of this suspect test, and I only think Dracovish is one of the two biggest issues in this tier (the other being Clefable currently), but I'm still firmly in the Ban camp regarding the fish. I don't think banning this thing is going to significantly change teambuilding, barring a sharp decrease in Toad/Gastro usage and a significant overhaul of Ferrothorn/Pex's EV investments, but Dracovish is just so unbelievably unhealthy that I simply cannot justify keeping it in this meta.
 

McCoolDude

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No, we shouldn't ban dracovish.

There's tons of available counters that you don't even need to over prepare for. It's resisted by all of the common dragons in the meta, can be walled out by extremely common pokemon like ferrothorn and toxapex, and dragapult can outspeed and kill. All of them are used for other purposes besides dracovish checks and are plentiful thanks

I've been running seismatoad for a while with water absorb. It knows earthquake, knock off, liquidation and drain punch. It checks dracovish and, of course, is immune to rend. Almost every dracovish is choices into band or scarf, so if you make the prediction, fish is basically forced to switch allowing for a switch of your own, set up, etc. if it's too fast because of choice scarf, you can paralyse it with grimmsnarl (who's used as a screens setter, not just a dracovish check). If it's too strong, burn it with common will-o-wisp users like Corsola-G (Who can live rend at full health if it's a scarf variant, and even if it's a band variant, it's really slow.)

Now the main reason why people want a ban appears to be fishous rend. But that only gets the double damage if it's faster, and dracovish only has a base speed of 75. That's slower than goodra. Naturally, people use a choice scarf to boost their speed, but are still outside by the numerous dragapults and zeraoras running around with noteworthy kill potential of their own. Plus, it essentially gets shut down by every choice scarf user in the game, especially those with super effective moves like hydriegon and, to an extent, togekiss. Another thing to consider is that it only has 100 attack, which isn't super impressive in today's terms. Sure it becomes deadlier with strong jaw, band, stab, and rend, and you still can't OHKO tons of offensive and defensive threats in the meta. Pokemon like Darmanitan and Shell Smash users like poltergeist and Cloyster can do more damage, are usually faster, can breaks through Sash and sturdy (cloyster) and can switch their moves in the case of Shell Smashers.

I feel like this ban will be similar to the G-Darma ban, as they're both sweepers with high damage output and are decently fast, but dracovish is slower, frail, is basically limited to one move since it's almost always choice, and can be walled out by several common pokemon in the tier that can outlast it. Pokemon is a game of type matchups. Some pokemon have counters and those counters have counters and those counters can be countered by the original pokemon. Dracovish is no exception. Don't ban dracovish. Despacito.

"Resisting" fisheous rend really doesn't matter. Can those dragons, invested normally, survive it? (Hint: basically all of them drop after rocks unless they're massively invested into HP/defense, and usually those get outsped by even the band set, so they're 2HKO'd).

The toad set you listed as well as the g-corsola and Grimm references make me wonder if you even play this meta.

Cloyster & Polteageist are both setup sweepers that are walled by common mons in the meta and are weak to common priority. Darmamitan is rocks-weak and does not outdamage Vish in the slightest (really no idea where you got that from)

Finally, 75 base speed with 252 speed EVs outspeeds every notable wall in the meta unless they speed creep to avoid the band set specifically (and compromise their ability to be a wall).
 
I'm going to be completely honest... I don't see a reason to ban the fish.

It is meta game warping, requiring at least one sturdy answer on every balance oriented team, but to say this is restrictive is a misleading statement. A water resist had been nigh required for good teams for at least four generations running, and defensive resits aren't difficult to come by. The only relevant change is that now, instead of running SpD EVs for greninja, they run Regular Def for the fish. Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and the Toad are all top tier answers, and while perhaps only surviving by the skin of their teeth at times, with + the spikes/tspikes/rocks (in addition to other support moves) they throw up on the switch, as well as wish support from Clefable help these checks not just stay healthy to check fish, but make meaningful offensive progress.

Therin lies the second problem with the Fish: it is either too weak to truly break through the common ferrothorn/toxapex, or too slow to threaten any part of the offensive metagame. Both sets are boned pretty hard by toad, and the admittedly gimmicky gastrodon and vaperon.

The flip side is the offensive metagame. It straight up can't outspeed metagame titans dragapult and zeraora, both which threaten heavy damage or OHKO, the prior chip not difficult to get with hazards or weather. In fact, even jolly scarf hits only 409, losing to any speed boosted offensive pokemon and every other viable scarfer. HO teams can easily set up a screen against the Jolly variant, and feasibly get at least one setup off on the meantime, and they outspeed and therefore half the damage from band fishous.

Overall, I would say dracovish is incredibly scary, but nowhere near banworthy. And while I won't pretend like this isn't fearmongering, a metagame without the fish loses one of the only ways truly scare clefable balance, which is 90% of the meta (not really, but it can feel this way at times).

People like to consider the fish a deity to which nothing can stop, but they forget to account for the fact that it will either be too weak or too slow to do serious damage to any tournament worthy team without some serious softening by its teammates first. This is not unlike volcarona. Do not ban.
 
The thing is, you absolutely do need to over prepare for it, or at least commit a mon on your team to countering it. The "common dragons" which you refer to cannot switch in due to the sheer power of a boosted Fishous Rend. Unless you have a Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Seismitoad, or maybe Kommo-o on your team you lose a mon whenever Vish gets in on a slower Pokemon. There's no reason Seismitoad, a mediocre Pokemon overall, should have near 30% usage. These "common pokemon" are so common because you have to run them on your team to deal with Vish. When a mon is this restrictive on team building, it needs to be banned.
"Unless you have a Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Seismitoad, or maybe Kommo-o on your team."

These pokemon are extremely common and splashable. Besides the toad, all are good at countless other things besides checking fish.

Forcing them to run PysDef builds is not "restricting" as it hardly impedes their ability to check other pokemon, since these mons are mostly used to physical attackers anyways.

And you can't even argue this metagame has no variety, since if you didn't want to run these common options, you could run the less viable but still usable Jellicent, Gastrodon, or Vaporion.

The only teambuilding "restriction" dracovish has is forcing teams to use one of the aforementioned sturdy water resists, and as teams always need a semi-sturdy water resist in any meta, the only pokemon cut from teambuilding are the defensive waters ill equip to deal with fish. I can only think of one off the top of my head: rotom-wash. There may be others, but they are few and far between.
 
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Also, what dragons get outside by the band set?
If they're switching directly in, and depending on Stealth Rocks, potentially almost all of them.


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 337-397 (106.3 - 125.2%)
-- guaranteed OHKO


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 291-342 (89.5 - 105.2%)
-- 37.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after Stealth Rock)


252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 289-341 (73.9 - 87.2%)
-- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

(not sure why this is ranked, but whatever)
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Haxorus: 289-341 (98.6 - 116.3%)
-- 93.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after Stealth Rock)

Unless you're running some jank defensive spread on these dragons, the only dragon who can switch in is Kommo-o. Yes, they can revenge kill, but that requires you to sack something else.
 
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