Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 9 - Old Town Road

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Bruh you just listed almost ten mons lol
I thought it was "overcentralizing and forces players to run AV Gigalith, etc."
You then go on to mention a burned Ferrothorn that 100% did not start the battle that way (lol)
Even Shedinja and Volcarona would be Ubers if "all supereffective mons were removed earlier in the battle" or "Toxapex was Perish Trapped already"
This is a discussion whether Spectrier is SUPER BROKEN to the point where it can no longer exist in OU, and it just doesn't seem that overbearing to me imo
Heres the thing about those mons. They arent known to be particularly flexible on every team to the point where it covers multiple checks consistently. TTar, Goon and Goltres dont even have passive recovery. These checks become harder and harder to fit as people find ways of breaking and chipping those checks down, and actually a lot of those checks can lose to one of its many sets. so your fucked anyways!
 
Do you even play this metagame? I'm earnestly asking at this point.
Yeah i got to 1800 in Gen 8 OU with Barraskewda Rain Offense before I took a break. I got swept by a Spectrier like maybe once....ever. Bigger problems were Urshifu and Pheromosa before they got banned. And Amoonguss/Slowbro Regenerator cores making Barraskewda dead weight at team preview. Anyway, I just got like 6 replies in a row all telling me I'm 100% wrong without entertaining any of my ideas (lol) so I can see that everyone here has already made up their minds and cannot be convinced otherwise. So I'm probably gonna stop commenting now. Cheers. (Spectrier still isn't broken)
 

Baloor

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I gave lots of examples to show that there are lots of answers to Spectrier. People are most likely just salty about Grim Neigh's snowballing potential.
At some point the sheer variety of answers that include mons that would be used in OU anyway means that the threat in question does not in fact force you to run some jank NU mon to deal with it (see: Seismitoad for Dracovish).
Dragapult deals with Substitute sets, Blissey deals with literally every set except for the stallbreaker one, any semi-bulky Dark-type (Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar) totally dabs on Spectrier, and Bulletproof mons are the cherry on top.
i dont think you throughly read my post, however i appreciate you being somewhat respectful.

Dragapult is an offensive check so you're not wrong, however it cant switch in so you will likely have to either A) sack something to get pult in (which they just switch out) or B) run teleport blissey which is a valid response. however, pult does struggle vs calm mind sets if they get set up on.

Blissey checks scarf and specs sets just fine yes, however it is set up fodder for every other spect set which are also really common at the moment

Spdef hydreigon isnt very good and exists just to check spect

theres only one bulletproof mon in kommoo which is not very good at the moment in general

Mandibuzz frankly would not be OU if spect wasnt in the tier. the mon is very bad. youre also forced to run knock + foul play which often opts you to drop u turn, which means mandibuzz becomes a huge momentum sink which makes it even worse than it already is and if youre not facing a spectrier youre going to have a very meh time using mandi. also knock +foul play still isnt consistent cause there is a spread running around that turns knock into a roll. which means you lose.

tyranitar needs rest to be consistent in a spect 1v1, after you click rest you become deadweight for 3 turns which means the opponent can take advantage of that with one of their other mons

the latter 3 i mentioned are mons that might see usage in ou however theyre forced to run bad sets to check spectrier

and to repeat myself, anything else that is being used would NOT be used in OU if not for spect, so yes, im running NU mons to check this mon, hence shit mons.

edit: saw finch said to stop after I finished writing this, hopefully im not breaking any rules by leaving this up. im not attacking the guy, just explaining stuff as he did respond to my initial response.
 
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I'm not convinced by much of the pro-ban sentiment in here. "Spectrier doesn't do much, but it's too restrictive" is a bunch of bunk that applies to most of the top pokemon in the tier. If you don't run karatan stops, you will get clicked-on. Scarf lando can clean against anything without ground resists. You must run a magearna check. Etc.

I could understand if the case was around its power level, but there are PLENTY of things that can survive a hit and beat it 1v1. You don't have to play in the same "switch wars" style every game.

There are heaps of stops to spectrier and calling them niche is, to me, reflective of an unwillingness to adapt. If spectrier is such a metagame force as this thread would claim, then its checks can certainly not be considered "out" of the meta.



:Zarude: Bulk up zarude is god
:psygrump:

Probably going to get taken down as I do not have voting reqs to be saying anything, because I don't want to spend 8 hours of my life trying for that, but balance and competitiveness is literally the reason mons shift in and out of tiers. I understand the sentimentality of keeping it around because you feel it has some checks, but in reality every tier has the potential to adapt to threats. Really, It is how they handle them in terms of that BALANCE and OFFENSE- which are the key components of ANY tier- that determines how they are dealt with. In Spectrier's case, there is constricting counter-play to its offensive presence, which effects its balance in the tier and the mons in it. Think about how every other mon who could be considered a threat to how the OU functions, and how much healthy counter-play there is to it (Ex: Rillaboom, Magearna, Cinderace, you get the point) V.S. Spectier's counter-play.

Another thing I notice between posters who make similar statements to this comment, that "there are PLENTY of things that can survive a hit and beat it 1v1," is that this isn't just a 1v1 tier. Similar to Urshifu-SS there can be some switches yes, but the threat of shown BYPASSING its counters, crippling common mons, having bulk, and having immunities to both Fighting and Normal type moves is a bit of a stretch to say that there is plenty that can beat it in a 1v1, because not only does it contribute a lot to teams and fill holes- obviously with proper team construction in the meta- it can also be switched out with answers to its threat, in turn forcing more of that aforementioned constrictive counter-play everyone is discussing.

Also, "heaps of stops to spectrier and calling them niche is, to me, reflective of an unwillingness to adapt," is completely ridiculous to say the LEAST. There are plenty of checks brought from lower tiers- which typically don't fit in the tier because they can't deal with the OU's pressure- to deal with Spetrier, and even now specific sets used to beat it from mons that SHOULD be counters (such as Blissey and Mandibuzz) to adapt to Spectrier's oppressive effect on the meta (albeit, these months with Urshifu-SS and Spectrier in the tier have made it one of, if not, the most lively OU out of any generation). Put simply back to the the point others have made, being able to answer its threats and setup for moves that cripple a team really makes Spectrier break the Floodgates down.

"If spectrier is such a metagame force as this thread would claim, then its checks can certainly not be considered 'out' of the meta."-
False, very false. Although its threats ARE within the meta, the fact that the WHOLE meta has had to adapt to it, and that it has adapted in turn makes it even more stomach turning. I don't even have to say anything more, it is obvious this comes back to balances and offenses of the OU.

"maybe most people don't like playing in this fashion, which is understandable, but banning on the grounds of balance or competitiveness doesn't make sense to me."
>
"Maybe most people don't *like* having a knife stab them, which is understandable, but saying you should take it out on the grounds of 'oh god this is going to kill me please I have a wife and kids' makes no sense to me.'"

LMFAO I was dying writing all of this :psysly:

No hate for your opinions on things, nor am I attacking you at all or encourage it, but opinions are like bungholes, and some people's bungholes really stink.
 
Let me summarize it very quick, It is like urshifu, if you don't have a clefable which in this case is hydreigon (loses to wisp hex and specs hex), tyranitar (hates being burned and forced to rest to coninuasly check spectrier over a period of time. Mandibuzz and blissey both check specs but fall to Sub wisp, or to sub dark pulse. Also you might not even face spectrier, so the mons you just put to check it may be dead weight and accomplish little to nothing in the match. Its like saying I shall bring weezing-g to counter urshifu, weezing does do well but its dead weight against teams that dont have urshifu-s and gets beaten up by any special move thrown at it. Maybe you will convince yourself that spectrier is broken one day. But for now, the majority of the community votes BAN because of how restricting it is, how easily it snowballs teams, and its ability to muscle through checks.
No, Spectrier is nothing like Urshifu. Urshifu hits like a Rampardos out the gate without people needing to make arguments that it burned something earlier in the battle so Hex will do 2x damage. Normal is immune to Ghost (whether its Shadow Ball or Hex), whereas nothing is immune to Dark. Urshifu also has other attacks which force you to play a guessing game, whereas if you go into your Ghost counter all Spectrier can do is burn it - and if it's a special attacker like Hydreigon it won't care and you just lost a ton of momentum. Aurora Veil/Light Screen turn 1 can also deal with Spectrier because its attacks aren't guaranteed crits. You people are really on here just saying whatever. Just because my posts aren't as eloquently written or I throw in a couples of "lols" here and there doesn't give what I'm saying any less weight. Anyway based on all these responses Spectrier is most likely getting banned which I find surprising because it isn't banworthy in my eyes

P.S. I want to add that I know I'm mentioning Hydreigon a lot, but even if you use Ttar or Mandi and they get burned, so what? They are burned. Cool. Spectrier still can't do anything to them, so they still successfully counter it, while burned. Spectrier is not "over-centralizing" unless you people just outright refuse to run Dark-types, Normal-types, or Blissey. In that case, you are just getting steamrolled by the ghost horse because your team sucks.
 
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No, Spectrier is nothing like Urshifu. Urshifu hits like a Rampardos out the gate without people needing to make arguments that it burned something earlier in the battle so Hex will do 2x damage. Normal is immune to Ghost (whether its Shadow Ball or Hex), whereas nothing is immune to Dark. Urshifu also has other attacks which force you to play a guessing game, whereas if you go into your Ghost counter all Spectrier can do is burn it - and if it's a special attacker like Hydreigon it won't care and you just lost a ton of momentum. Aurora Veil/Light Screen turn 1 can also deal with Spectrier because its attacks aren't guaranteed crits. You people are really on here just saying whatever. Just because my posts aren't as eloquently written or I throw in a couples of "lols" here and there doesn't give what I'm saying any less weight. Anyway based on all these responses Spectrier is most likely getting banned which I find surprising because it isn't banworthy in my eyes
Go ahead and refer to my reply to Veez, I think you could possibly look at that as well. he was trying to- I think, although less successfully- show the similarity between Urshifu and Spectrier in terms of effects in the play of the OU, as well as counter-play. Also, I find that the way things are written has no bearing to how you present your point, it is that it's subject of matter has strong contrary to your view, and it is clear to see.
 

McCoolDude

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I'm realizing now that I haven't actually put my thoughts down in this thread - my posts here have been mostly correcting obviously false information/surface level analysis.

Since life hit me pretty hard a few months ago, I hadn't had much time to really engage in any particular meta (barring a randbats session while not doing something else). I've been building and playing in this meta for a few weeks now and almost immediately noticed that Spectrier was a top-tier threat. It isn't, as some seem to think, a mon that consistently sweeps every team. It is, however, a mon that will consistently force progress against most balance or stall teams by abusing the plethora of matchups in the tier that are in its favor.

I don't want to re-state calcs or builds in this post, as they have been written up very well by many other posters in this thread. Do yourself a favor and go read ausma 's post on it. It's a good read that breaks the actual spect answers out well.

Of the two primary consistent answers listed (SpD ttar and Zarude), I've really only used Ttar much - Zarude is exceptionally difficult to build with, while ttar tends to be joined at the hip with Excadrill, which is a very consistent sweeper and hazard remover.

The consequence to this feels very like the Dracovish meta, where you were generally forced to run toad (or a combination of pex+ferro), which meant you may as well run corviknight, which meant you may as well slap Clefable in there. So many of my teams followed the very same build - not because those mons were all amazing (Clef and Corvi were, Toad wasn't), but because having a single mon basically mandated by the threat of an incredibly powerful breaker caused every team to start with similar weaknesses I had to shore up.

Keeping Spectrier in the tier does not encourage and likely will not result in further innovation. The mon's checks are well known. You either run them or risk losing a mon when it hits the field. You can run a subpar check, like Obstagoon, if you want, but it will simply not be as effective versus Spectrier and will likely be dead weight in matchups where Spectrier isn't present.

Removing Spectrier frees up more than one slot in the teambuilder, which opens the door to see actual innovation in this metagame once more.
 
P.S. I want to add that I know I'm mentioning Hydreigon a lot, but even if you use Ttar or Mandi and they get burned, so what? They are burned. Cool. Spectrier still can't do anything to them,
+2 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 196-231 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 178-210 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

It admitedly won't do a lot to Tyranitar, but Spectier doesn't have to touch Tyranitar, it can use hazards support to get rid of it since it gets worn down pretty easily, as it has no way to recover off hits.
 
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This isn't even remotely true. Spectrier frequently uses hex, hazards, burn damage, and weather damage to break past opposing dark types. Normal types are typically much more difficult to break, but many of them are just as abused by sub+calm mind, or are worn down by hazards and status over the course of the match.

+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 178-210 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage

92 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 176-210 (47.6 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This is: spect wisp'd hydreigon on the first switch in and calm minded on the second. It took about half damage and easily secured the 2HKO.

I could list many scenarios where dark types are overwhelmed by a combination of weather, status, and just sheer power - as it turns out, OU is a 6v6 meta and there are plenty of ways to passively apply pressure to an opposing mon. There are replays in this thread that show spectrier breaking past prominent bulky dark types.

Do you even play this metagame? I'm earnestly asking at this point.





You seem to be forgetting that you only have 6 mons and might not even face spectrier.
OK, but you also gave a very specific scenario stacked in specs favor. Spec is at full health, has no status, has no hazards on their side while also having rocks up, and they managed to burn hydreigon while getting every prediction right all in one game. Predictions go both ways, and as you said, this is a 6v6 meta. Even if this happened, spec would be at ~50% and be highly prone to revenge killing. Of course spec can break through its checks if literally everything is in its favor.
 
P.S. I want to add that I know I'm mentioning Hydreigon a lot, but even if you use Ttar or Mandi and they get burned, so what? They are burned. Cool. Spectrier still can't do anything to them, so they still successfully counter it, while burned.
Did you even watch the replay that 658Greninja showed you? A healthy Mandibuzz at 80% came into Spectrier, who was at 60% with no sub up - a situation where you could definitely say they were being careful with it. But even with that in mind, the Spectrier was immediately able to press will-o-wisp, taking just over 10% from the subsequent foul play, and then was able to sub up and 2HKO with hex. Even if the Spectrier hadn't got 2 CMs up, it still would be able to set up freely because the Mandibuzz could barely outdamage the leftovers recovery. Mandibuzz isn't even a counter to the most common set when not burned, let alone when burned.
Blissey's complete inability to damage Spectrier in return (especially vs CM sets) also makes it difficult to class as a check. While it does win a PP war pretty easily via teleport stalling, that's not exactly a sign of a healthy metagame where one of the only ways to beat a pokemon is to slowly exhaust its PP for close to 100 turns, and you should be able to understand why this isn't a popular way to check it. Plus, if this gained popularity, there's no doubt that Taunt Spectrier + Pressure Corv would start to spring up as a means to beat this.
Of all of these, Ttar and Hydreigon are the only ones who class as real checks, and even Hydreigon needs to be kept very healthy, kept away from anyone who could possibly status it (removing its utility as a check to Heatran and Slowbro) or else risk getting 2HKOd by Specs Hex. For how few viable checks for both types of Spectrier exist, the amount of care needed to be taken to preserve said checks can basically mean you're playing 5v6 until the spectrier is dealt with.
 

McCoolDude

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OK, but you also gave a very specific scenario stacked in specs favor. Spec is at full health, has no status, has no hazards on their side while also having rocks up, and they managed to burn hydreigon while getting every prediction right all in one game. Predictions go both ways, and as you said, this is a 6v6 meta. Even if this happened, spec would be at ~50% and be highly prone to revenge killing. Of course spec can break through its checks if literally everything is in its favor.

That post wasn't me saying "spect always beats hydreigon in this manner" that's me specifically refuting the "spect can't touch dark types" by listing an extremely common series of turns involving spectrier and hydreigon.

As for revenge killing, spectrier can swap now that it has broken the (likely only) opposing check to it. What revenge killer doesn't have solid checks in this meta?

Edit: note that I gave both sides rocks in that calc, and that it only marginally affects the roll. I also chose that specific series of turns because it was one I'd recently played out on my own spectrier team, I just didn't have a replay handy. There are plenty of other scenarios, many in this thread with replays, showing Spectrier beat dark types with relative ease. Pick any of those if you don't like this one.
 
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I barely play mons anymore and I don’t have req’s but I’ll just share my 2 cents.
Spect should be banned, why?
Because every check has one or more of the following traits
1. Beats spect and doesn’t do much otherwise/gets shit on by half the rest of the meta
2. Beats spect and does a lot more, but doesn’t have recovery
3. Beats choiced spect, has recovery but loses to setup
4. Beats spect, does a lot more but it’s a blanket check and prone to getting chipped
5. Beats spect always but is a huge momentum sink and doesn’t rly get u anywhere

get the picture? A bunch of things beats spectrier, but it’s got just enough bulk and just enough speed and just enough spatk to beat just about every single mon in the tier with minimalistic team support, and if it can’t immediatelythe opposing mon either sucks at everything else or it’s gonna eventually get chipped and die anyway
 
That post wasn't me saying "spect always beats hydreigon in this manner" that's me specifically refuting the "spect can't touch dark types" by listing an extremely common series of turns involving spectrier and hydreigon.

As for revenge killing, spectrier can swap now that it has broken the (likely only) opposing check to it. What revenge killer doesn't have solid checks in this meta?

Edit: note that I gave both sides rocks in that calc, and that it only marginally affects the roll. I also chose that specific series of turns because it was one I'd recently played out on my own spectrier team, I just didn't have a replay handy. There are plenty of other scenarios, many in this thread with replays, showing Spectrier beat dark types with relative ease. Pick any of those if you don't like this one.
My point was that listing a specific way a breaker can get past a check doesn't add anything to the conversation. This player let rocks get up and stay up, allowed their hydreigon to get burned, got the read wrong on specs calm mind, and then proceed to lose to spec. That's like 5 turns they got wrong for that to happen. Corv can lose to garchomp if I get +4 and use fire fang while the sun is up, but that doesn't mean anything because any breaker can get past a check in ideal circumstances. Hydreigon should win the exchange more often than not, and it can easily be EV'd to make +1 hex a 3HKO, and nearly all defensive hydreigon run roost. If you want to make it even more certain, you can run snarl.
 
My point was that listing a specific way a breaker can get past a check doesn't add anything to the conversation. This player let rocks get up and stay up, allowed their hydreigon to get burned, got the read wrong on specs calm mind, and then proceed to lose to spec. That's like 5 turns they got wrong for that to happen. Corv can lose to garchomp if I get +4 and use fire fang while the sun is up, but that doesn't mean anything because any breaker can get past a check in ideal circumstances. Hydreigon should win the exchange more often than not, and it can easily be EV'd to make +1 hex a 3HKO, and nearly all defensive hydreigon run roost. If you want to make it even more certain, you can run snarl.
I don't know about you, but if I have to run Snarl, of all moves, to have a chance against it, that only makes me think that Spectrier is putting the metagame in a chokehold. What are you gonna give up to run Snarl? Because odds are it'd be more useful than Snarl.
 
I don't know about you, but if I have to run Snarl, of all moves, to have a chance against it, that only makes me think that Spectrier is putting the metagame in a chokehold. What are you gonna give up to run Snarl? Because odds are it'd be more useful than Snarl.
On defensive hydreigon? I feel like being able to check every spectrier set consistently is better than the damage you're giving up from dark pulse. It's like having mystical fire on moltres, and it's not like the spatk drop is only useful for spec. It's not even needed if you run more spdef, as the defensive set only runs hp EVs.
 

McCoolDude

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My point was that listing a specific way a breaker can get past a check doesn't add anything to the conversation. This player let rocks get up and stay up, allowed their hydreigon to get burned, got the read wrong on specs calm mind, and then proceed to lose to spec. That's like 5 turns they got wrong for that to happen. Corv can lose to garchomp if I get +4 and use fire fang while the sun is up, but that doesn't mean anything because any breaker can get past a check in ideal circumstances. Hydreigon should win the exchange more often than not, and it can easily be EV'd to make +1 hex a 3HKO, and nearly all defensive hydreigon run roost. If you want to make it even more certain, you can run snarl.
Again, that's very clearly not the point of the post. It's a single example showing that a previous statement (that I was quoting!) is incorrect. There are other examples in this thread that could be swapped in - does changing the calcs in that post to spectrier vs mandibuzz change the main idea of that post? Does linking the SPL replay?

To the "adding value to the thread" point - what value does nitpicking an example of a single matchup used to refute a specific, broad statement add to this thread?
 
think we need to make this clear that regardless of whether hydreigon works as a check or not, the fact that you have to run not only a suboptimal set but a crappy spread in general makes spectrier a clear problem. You are talking about running a mon that serves absolutely no purpose other than soft checking heatran, and even then it gets hit with toxic. The fact that you are running a mon that is useless in a non spectrier matchup just shows the problem. The issue is not whether spectrier can or cannot get past mons- it mandates a ghost resist on every team, not to mention out answers are either a) garbage or b) would rather be running more optimal spreads. It restricts teambuilding to an unholy degree and does nothing positive for the tier other than be on the back foot the entire time to keep the spectrier "answer" alive, not to mention this is a 6v6 game and these shit mons the no ban side keeps bringing up as "checks" die to tons of other mons like magearna and cinderace.
 
I'm sick of this thread, spec is unhealthy, hydreigon is a check, and so are plenty of other pokemon. Checks can lose to walls under specific circumstances, but just because that can happen doesn't really mean all that much. Spec isn't an unwallable behemoth because it is naturally super matchup dependant, and can't even hope to cover it's checks all at once. This is going to be my last post on this, please don't tag me I won't be responding
 

Finchinator

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Hydreigon is a fair check to Spectrier so long as it is running Roost. It can lose under specific conditions, but for the sake of discussion, it is absolutely considered an answer to Spectrier.

This does not mean Spectrier counterplay is solved. Hydreigon and Tyranitar are things we consider countermeasures to Spectrier, but these are only two Pokemon. Yes, there are other Pokemon that qualify for this grouping as well, but it's a small group and this naturally limits teambuilding.

So then we look at how limiting it is to teambuilding, how unprepared teams manage Spectrier, and how possible it is to integrate Spectrier on to our own teams and draw conclusions on it like we do quite literally any other suspect.

Spectrier counterplay makes teambuilding challenging and restricts how many different structures you can use. I personally have exhausted every possible avenue of Roost Hydreigon balance or bulky-offense and have had to start spamming Whirlwind Mandibuzz to handle it due to Mandibuzz's other sets being insufficient unless paired with a +Speed Dragapult with Infiltrator. Tyranitar Sand is solid, but only one Pokemon that fits on to an admiteddly limited archetype. Blissey can work, too, and could be considered a saving grace if not for the risk against Dark Pulse sets and passivity of the exchange. All in all, there are Pokemon that can be used that are very viable in the metagame, but it is still a significant limitation. This is why this is a suspect and not a quickban or something just being brought up in preliminary discussions: there is a lot to say on both sides and there is actual counterplay, but it is not always easy to gauge if there is enough. Personally, I think it is too limiting.
While I would naturally enjoy teambuilding more without having to deal with Spectrier, I find people arguing this to miss the mark when it comes to why we have suspects and ban things. I do not ban out of convenience or individual preference (you can vote on whatever logic you would like of course, but I cannot say I agree personally), but rather based off of an actual set of tiering guidelines that can be found here. Spectrier's teambuilding limitation infringes upon the skillful nature of both teambuilding and arguably gameplay. This can qualify it as broken and potentially unhealthy. This is something you can actualy use to make a logical argument in tiering context without saying things overly personalized that are subject to a lot more discrediting from users who have different personal experiences than your own I feel.

Unprepared teams flat out do not handle Spectrier well unless they are hyper offense with multiple priority users that may be willing to trade with it. Otherwise, you are going to have a long, uphill or impossible battle against it. Spectrier is too fast and pretty quick to boost up via status+Hex and/or Nasty Plot/Calm Mind. It is one of the most punishing presences in the metagame and if you do not adhere to integrating actual checks nd counters on to your teams, then you absolutely will have a bad time against it.

On the contrary, it is very possible to use Spectrier on teams. It can be a form of speed control, Ghost types are potent enough offensively to rely on it for breaking power, and it has some checks/counters that are passive enough to take advantage of with other offensive partners.

Because of these points, I will be voting ban. I hope this post serves as an example for the points we should be addressing -- be it pro or anti ban as there are plenty of valid arguments on each side. I feel we are all over the place and not making any actual progress in this thread at this point, so let's try to clean it up. PM me if you have any questions or concerns and happy posting.
 
I’m gonna reiterate a point I made in a post earlier in the thread (coincidentally, that post was also directly after a Finch post lmao). The problem with Spectrier isn’t necessarily that it’s unwallable. It has a list of mons that can semi-comfortably and/or reliably deal with it. That much is true. But that’s also not the issue. The issue here is that it necessitates at least 1-2 of these mons per team lest you get steamrolled by it. The strain it puts on the teambuilder is ungodly, and this over-centralization should be more than enough reason to consider it problematic. What pushes it further over the edge is that often, these mons can also be played around by it. You may think you’re playing against a Sub + CM set, and then suddenly your super effective hit gets disabled and before you know it the Spect is behind another sub with a NP boost, and then it’s steamrolling your team. Even despite that, the fact that Spectrier so firmly warps the metagame around itself to the point that it necessitates 1-2 answers for it per team is more than enough reason to consider a ban for it. People have already shown walls of calcs and replays that show its performances in practice, so that in conjunction with its obvious vice grip on the teambuilder launches it into ban territory, in my opinion.
 
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I've only just started playing pokemon again on a consistent basis after taking a casual break following the end of gen 7 playing only casual games with trollish teams since I wasn't a fan of the removal of megas or Z-moves but I love pokemon to much to stay away forever (Those who remember know I started break this team and How much I loved T-wave clef and mega lopunny). Anyway onto our dog breed named ghost horse spectrier. In the short time I've been back both using it and facing it I can safely say I favour a ban stance due to the strain it place's apon "team building".

To explain it reminds me Gen 6 Aegisslash and Oras greninja were only a select few mons could check it or counter it and you needed multiple not to by outright steamrolled if you picked wrongly. In Aegisslash's case if you didn't take Umbreon the only outright counter you had to take 2 checks not to be steamrolled by Offence or Sub-toxic sets and thats assuming it wasn't something oddball like trick room or mixed. In Greninjas Case if you didn't possess blissey, mega lopunny, Manetric or a scarfer (even they could be trolled) you lost. In Specteriers case the only consistent non meme answers are rest SPDEF tyraniter, Shadowball blissey which I cant believe I'm saying and Zarude. Does this situation seem familiar? Does the fact that people are resorting to shadowball blissey not ring warning bells?. Everything else mentioned either loses to specific sets (Mandibuzz/Hydriegon) which means you'll need 2 of them or wouldn't be usable in OU otherwise (Snorlax has been useless since gen 4).

Before anyone accuse's me of pulling strawman arguements. I'm not saying its unbeatable because as shown above there are answers. Its just that these answers Outside Zarude and Tyraniter are forcing pokemon into sub optimal rolls to check Spectriar or requring you to build your team in such a way that leaves you exposed to the rest of the meta and open to Counter teaming during tournaments which is the problem. It place's to much of a strain on the teambuilder. You get steamrolled if you dont take checks and you get steamrolled if you do. Either way your damned. It cant even check itself lol like Gen 7 lando T could.

One more point. Stall will not take over the metagame if Specteriar goes. Infact from what I've observed the archtype is in a worse state now then when Z-moves were about due to simply with how many pokemon now exist and heavy duty boots hurting hazards. Theres still plently of offensive mons that can steamroll stall, Taunt, Hazards and Trick Still exist and Cinderance, Genger and magerna remain easy quick answers

Sorry if that was a bit long or I seem out of place commenting so soon after coming back I just wanted to have my say. I dont think I'll get Reqs on time but I definitely support the ban stance.
 
Wow, this discussion is heated! Let me join!

Anyways, this has already been said a bajillion times, but yes Spectrier is too restricting on the tier list and way too unbalanced for its own good. I'm not gonna say the whole dilemma as it's been repeated a lot of times, but I do want to give some input here.

1) Are we really gonna use niche movesets and Pokemon for this one mon?

Why the hell are people using Snarl/Defog Hydreigon instead of Nasty Plot + Three attacks or Choice Specs? Why the hell are people using Shadow Ball on Blissey instead of Seismic Toss? Is RestTalk Obstagoon and Ttar our only way to break through this ONE mon? Cause if so, that's disappointing. If Pokemon like these are using such lame movesets, then that's one reason why this horse needs to go.

2) After you defeat Spectrier, what now?

Yay, you finally defeated this monster. Oh, but the game isn't over yet. If you did manage to defeat Spect, then good, but your team is gonna look ragged. After all that chip damage, status spreading, and the the fact that it probably fainted one or two of you mons, Spectrier left your team in perfect condition for the 4-5 Pokemon left on your opponent's side to clean up after it.

Spectrier is too much and the fact that you have to rely on specific sets just to counter one Pokemon proves that it doesn't need to be in OU.
 
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Someone a couple pages ago was hating on Incineroar - of all the stupid Specterier Answers we have, Incineroar is actually among the worst at doing that job, but one of the more useful ones in the broader metagame. It can pivot, it can Toxic, it has two good stabs. It can check the annoying Psyspam archetypes pretty well. The same cannot be said of Obstagoon, who is steaming hot garbage against most teams.
 
Hello Guys!!!

First the Proof-
View attachment 309513

Secondly Team-
View attachment 309515

Basically the only reason the team works is Regen is broken and Ditto is one heck of a mon with regen support. I was actually taken aback on seeing just the sheer versatility of it. It got up hazards, it revenged sweepers, etc. You physically can't lose to Stall with this build and it is good against HO too. Balance is the toughest one if they can get their breakers in repeatedly through pivots but you can definitely play around. Really not too much to say here. One thing I did find interesting is that you can actually very reliably count on being knocked off on Ditto against teams you don't want the Scarf. Knock off is just really too prevalent rn. (You can imposter Regen mons so Ditto also is a pseudo Regen mon but well completely technically the team is 83.333% Incomplete Regeneration).

Ok, now as to Spectrier. There are only two sets that I consider are good and those are Choiced (Scarfed and Specs not Banded) and non-Choiced ones. Now some might say that is literally every set except banded (Sorry guys in the VR forum but Double Kick Spectrier is not good) but hear me out here.

Scarf set is a good scarfer with it's blazing speed outrunning most weather mons, Gear Mag, and all other scarfers besides Dragapult. Despite this I don't think Scarfed Spectrier is the best use of Spectrier. It misses out on the devastating effect of forcing kills or opening up entire games the other sets have.

IMO the Specs set is still an amazing set. It's power is simply breathtaking. It 2hkoes pretty much all special defensive neutral mons in OU with just shadow ball. Even dark types aren't safe. Say for example even max Spdef Mandi, one of the bulkiest dark types in the tier, takes 30-35% from timid hex when burned. If you are able to knock it off. It has a chance to actually get 2hkoed after rocks. Max HP max speed Hydreigon straight up gets 2hkoed by hex if burned after rocks. Zarude, while it can heal off burns, Shadow Ball already does 31to 37% to which is way more than Jungle healing heals. Ttars can get chipped down if they don't have rest. This is not some elaborate setup either. Each team should already have rocks and knock off mons and as Spectrier demands that these dark types switch directly into it and as it doesn't really lose out on any notable move, it can run wisp itself and reliably burn these dark types barely predicting anything. This set let's it focus on what it is best at, i.e. spamming ghost moves. With pivot mons it can continuously get in and fire off attacks due to it's incredible speed even against already blazing fast mons like Torn T and brute force it's way just about everything not named Blissey. It doesn't even need to setup. It really helps that it can just keep firing off attacks from the get go instead of waiting for the perfect setup opportunity that may never come or still get halted even if it comes. This set also punishes people who try to get away with offensive checks like Obstagoon, Krook, Diggersby etc. because they take around 35% from just one Mud Shot and your team is seriously in dangerous of being swept late game by Spectrier if it gets in continuously which it can on balance teams packing pivot mons. Another advantage of this set is that it completely destroys teams that try to run non- dark/normal type mons that are able to still check setup sets.

The true cream of the crop sets, however, are still the setup sets. This is where the problem with it bypassing it's counters starts showing up. Despite it's Offensive movepool being shallow, it's list of status moves is simply massive. My mans got Taunt, Sub, Wisp, Disable, Haze, Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, and Agility. Take your pick of any three and the appropriate EV spread to beat the whatever you want. The general route is going with Sub/Taunt as one move, Nasty Plot/Calm Mind as another and last one is completely a wildcard pick, it can be Sub/Taunt if you picked the other in the first slot, it could be disable, wisp, protect or even another attacking move. For attacks, you mostly go with mono ghost coverage because the dearth of normal types in OU outside of Blissey and some flavor picks but you can easily go with dark pulse or even both in some cases. Want to beat Shadow Ball Blissey? Run Calm Mind Taunt Pulse or Calm mind Sub Pulse. Want to beat Mandi? Run bulky wisp sub. Want to beat Hydriegon? Try Sub Disable Calm Mind Shadow Ball. These setup sets are truly what push it over the edge and it actually even helps the specs set as you just can't throw on a Blissey and call it a day.

All in all it is an incredibly restrictive mon. It's Specs sets forces you to run PARTICULAR Dark/Normal type mons. Particular being the key word here, Not any mon of these typing will do. And it's setup sets allow it to beat any mons it so wishes from this alarmingly meagre list. You absolutely can't afford multiple Spectrier answers in the current meta and if your opponent has opted for the set that beats your counter, it will blow a huge hole in your team if not outright win the game. This "Only one Answer can be afforded per team" also allows people to run the lure sets like Superpower/ Focus Punch Nidoking for Blissey. These sets are particularly successful in this case because the potential upside of getting he lure off is winning the entire game. This is where it separates itself from mons like Urshifu. While it's not as restrictive or capable of brute forcing it's way through checks, it's gets through it's checks by trickery and status. Once it does get through them, then it's blistering speed means that it is much harder to revenge. The only mons that are faster are Pult and Zeraora besides Scarfers. In a lot of games it is the at least the 2nd fastest mon on the field. If it sets up and is able to keep it's sub up against the mons it set up on (which it can easily do if it is speced that way), it can kill the one faster mon from behind the safety of sub and then proceed to sweep the rest of the team. In this regard it is incredibly dangerous.

Though I agree with the sentiment that it not probably not the most broken mon even in the current OU and that Cind and maybe even Mag deserved their suspect test before but that does not take away from the fact that it is also too much for the tier. It is a restrictive mon that is very unhealthy for the meta in it's own right, not only forcing certain mons but also having the ability get past them and having one of the most devastating snowball effect with it's speed and Grim Nrigh. For this reason and the reasons I mentioned above, I will be voting BAN for it.

Well thank you for reading and hope everyone gets their reqs. :)
Dude you are such a Legend for using that Team and still manage to get at 1.7k and almost 83 GXE
 
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