Metagame np: SS PU Stage 9 - Itsy Bitsy Spider (Guzzlord banned post #22)

[Chloe]

This is what happens when you let me pick the suspect song.

Hello, as promised earlier, the council was to vote on the new drops.

Inteleon has been quickbanned from SS PU. Araquanid has been quickbanned with the condition of an immediate suspect test to determine whether reintroducing it would be a good idea. Doublade and Guzzlord have remained in the tier.


Inteleon was incredibly busted to nobody's surprise. The ability for it to OHKO or 2HKO 90% of the meta without boosting or setting up is insane. It's too powerful to a point where the only viable Pokemon that reliably answer it are Lanturn and Max SpD Wishiwashi; which aren't exactly Pokemon you want to be forced to run on each team. Its speed tier at 372 is only outsped by Ribombee as a common Pokemon, and otherwise Jolteon or Choice Scarf users are a requirement in order to be faster. Even if it opts for a set other than Choice Specs, for example Focus Energy, it is able to get past teams that would abuse Protect spam in order to defensively deal with it. Either way, clearly not a healthy Pokemon in that regard and way too powerful for our tier.


Araquanid is an interesting case however. While it's Substitute + Toxic sets look difficult to deal with on paper, it is yet to really see much usage due to people spamming broken Inteleon over the last few days. Usually we would wait for it to be proven as broken prior to banning it; however, we would prefer to see how it is prior to allowing it in tournaments. Araquanid hasn't been proven as broken though so we're going to suspect it back into the tier. In terms of ladder, this is essentially the same as not banning it and just holding a suspect test, especially since it'll still be permitted on the ladder.

PU is re-suspecting Araquanid after quickbanning it. Araquanid will be allowed on the suspect ladder, but will not be allowed in PU tournaments (namely PUPL & Grand Slam Playoffs) unless the decision of this suspect test results in "Unban".

What makes Araquanid potentially unhealthy to begin with? Well, Water Bubble makes its Water-type attacks incredibly strong off the bat with very little resistances, and theoretically its Substitute + Toxic set allows it to break past Jellicent which resists both its STABs. There's very little defensively that can switch into Water Bubble boosted Liquidation, that doesn't mind being hit with Toxic. Having Bug-type as a secondary STAB allows it to super-effectively hit Water resistances such as Eldegoss and Guzzlord. Substitute allows it to prevent Pokemon like Ferroseed and Wishiwashi that would normally counter Araquanid from denting it, and overall can be painful to deal with.

On the other hand, Araquanid is absurdly slow. Its Water-type STAB, while powerful, isn't unwallable. There are faster more versatile Pokemon that can pull off similar offensive sets. Water/Bug is an atrocious defensive type as well in our current metagame as well. While you can switch into some select attacks like Sandaconda's Earthquake, Araquanid can generally be difficult to position in correctly. It has competition in terms of Water-type breakers from Choice Specs Jellicent and even Arctovish (which is faster and stronger). Araquanid also struggles to use its Bug-type STAB to accomplish anything as it comes off a measly offensive stat of 70, which isn't boosted from its ability unlike its Water-type attacks.
​

Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
79	50
79.2	49
79.4	48
79.6	47
79.8	46
80	45
80.2	44
80.4	43
80.6	42
80.8	41
81	40
81.2	39
81.4	38
81.6	37
81.8	36
82	35
82.2	34
82.4	33
82.6	32
82.8	31
83	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be PUAS. For example, I might signup with the ladder account PUAS Chloe.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here.
• We will be using the regular PU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The aspect being tested, Araquanid, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until Sunday, July 17th @ 11:59pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

Tagging Kris and Marty to ban Inteleon and announce the Araquanid suspect test in ladder games, thank you so much!

Post your reqs here.

 

[Chloe]

Going to make a point out of this because I've had to delete several posts so far, but please stop leaving one-liner effortless posts, they will be deleted. Explain why you think what you do about Araquanid instead of just saying "it's bad when I use it" or "it's not used often" with no further substance. It doesn't help anyone else reach a conclusion.

 

[Vulpix03]

https://pokepast.es/08c80174492e0991 Used this to get reqs today. It's not the best team, so I wouldn't recommend the 6, however I wanted to leave some thoughts on my experience with the spider set.
The speed allows you to outspeed max speed ada/modest guzz and slow sandaconda and jelli (you could just go max too, for 200 conda).

Ultimately had a lot of success with it. Most games the spider put in a ton of work. I found it quite easy to toxic jellicent and beat it down. Teams that used wishiwashi as their water resist usually had to bring wishi in and take 50% just to uturn into their offensive answer. Against teams that were using Guzzlord / Eldegoss as their water resist usually lost 2/3 mons to Araq and struggled to keep it off the field since I paired it with Scyther's Uturn. Ferroseed was the best answer to the sub toxic set. At best, in a 1v1 situation, Araq could trade down with Ferro.

Ultimately, I will be playing more games with the spider to form a stronger opinion. As of now I view it as a headache in the builder that doesn't add any real value to the tier. Whether I consider it "broken" by smogon definition I have yet to fully decide.

 

[Excal]

The spider is the worst kind of pokemon to introduce into the metagame: it provides little to no defensive utility, has obscene power, and puts a significant constraint on the teambuilder. Its low speed doesn't matter bc it's so easy to get in and the most consistent teams tend to be more balanced which means offensively pressuring it is oftentimes not feasible. All you need to do to break ferroseed w spider is knock its eviolite, which is not hard as long as u are wary of this in the builder. Once it gets a sub up, it's very difficult to deal with and can end games on the spot.

Given that no one really knows how busted the spider would end up with time and that there is a high chance this pokemon is a terrible influence on the meta, it's best to err on the side of caution and ban it to save pu tournament players a lot of headaches. Please ban this mon so that it doesn't fuck up pupl/scl, ty

 

[Vulpix03]

During the last day I did some more tests and pondering and have decided that I will indeed be voting ban. The mon is strong as hell, just bulky enough to tank certain atks, and easy enough to get in safely that I do believe is is a bit too much for the tier. It also hits a weird speed tier that allows it to easily outspeed a lot of defensive pokemon with proper investment. This small detail is what holds pokemon like Glastrier back from being premier breakers. (if glastrier could hit 201 speed it would be used a lot more lol.)

Even if you don't believe it is broken in the traditional sense, it is just another super strong breaker that is a headache in the builder and adds nothing of real value to the tier besides "spider go smash" .

 

[Chathouse]

While I have not used the mon in question, it was infuriating for me to deal with. I ended up searching for pokemon specifically to handle it, and settled on Silvally-Flying. It could switch in and OHKO Araquanid with a flying type Multi-Attack, but couldn't take two hits from it or even one hit if Silvally had taken 25% or more in chip damage. Overall, I feel that Araquanid has a negative impact on the PU tier, as it was so difficult to find another mon that can reliably handle it.

 

[PlusC]

I have to say I find it very odd that most of the arguments to ban it given here would also apply to Glastrier (which is IMO worse) but that survived it's suspect.

Araquanid excels against stall teams, but by no means trivialised them. This is a good addition to the tier imo as whilst stall isn't super powerful it has an amazing ability to drag games out for extended periods of time and is frankly annoying to face.

Outside of stall its a fairly mediocre breaker, with a rock weakness. There are already enough strong Water types in the tier that you absolutely should have a check for them in place and outside of its super powered Water stabs Araquanid is simply not particularly powerful. Jellicent, Qwilfish, Poliwrath and Cradily are all great checks/counters depending on the set.

IMO the only set worth using is SubToxic, which while powerful is far from broken.

I don't have time to get reqs but I can't fathom voting to ban this bug. I think it's actually an interesting addition to the tier.

 

[termi]

Araquanid excels against stall teams, but by no means trivialised them. This is a good addition to the tier imo as whilst stall isn't super powerful it has an amazing ability to drag games out for extended periods of time and is frankly annoying to face.

So what you're saying is that stall is not actually very good in our tier (correct) but that since it's annoying to deal with, a random threat that makes stall even worse is a good addition? Sorry, but stall is a legitimate competitive playstyle and the addition of new threats that do well vs it only really works as an argument when stall is too good rather than simply a viable but niche playstyle.

Outside of stall its a fairly mediocre breaker, with a rock weakness. There are already enough strong Water types in the tier that you absolutely should have a check for them in place and outside of its super powered Water stabs Araquanid is simply not particularly powerful. Jellicent, Qwilfish, Poliwrath and Cradily are all great checks/counters depending on the set.

We do not actually have that many strong Water type breakers that one needs to account for in the builder, and the primary one that does get a fair amount of usage in competitive play (not the ladder) is Specs Jellicent, which has a wildly different set of checks from Araquanid. The set of checks you go on to list for Araquanid aren't even especially good ones: Poliwrath does not beat SubToxic unless it's Rest (very bad set in this meta), Qwilfish is easily whittled and has very limited defensive utility in this meta so I'd prefer not to be forced to run it, and Cradily is both an unmon and weak to Bug which means you need max Defense with Rock Blast to even have a shot at beating Araq (even then it's unreliable and moreover a suboptimal set on a suboptimal mon). Jellicent is the only one you mentioned that is both viable and a fine Araquanid answer, but it does require a lot of Speed investment to reliably beat the spider (188 EVs if Jolly Araq becomes a thing, which definitely will be the case) since Jelli turns from a counter to fodder if it cannot outspeed and Taunt it. Moreover, if it gets hit with a Toxic on the switchin, Jelli stops being able to check Araq until you have managed to click Aromatherapy/Heal Bell with something, so it's only so reliable.

I don't have too strong of an opinion on this suspect yet, but I think it is hard to avoid the conclusion that Araquanid's addition to the tier would further complicate the building process in a tier that is already crammed with a lot of threats that our defensive metagame barely manages to handle. If pro-unban people could demonstrate how Araquanid is already manageable without us needing to go to unnecessary lengths to prep for it I think that would be much more helpful to their case than by pointing towards a set of mediocre Water resists that aren't very good outside of checking Araq.

 

[Vulpix03]

I have to say I find it very odd that most of the arguments to ban it given here would also apply to Glastrier (which is IMO worse) but that survived it's suspect.

It also hits a weird speed tier that allows it to easily outspeed a lot of defensive pokemon with proper investment. This small detail is what holds pokemon like Glastrier back from being premier breakers. (if glastrier could hit 201 speed it would be used a lot more lol.)

As you can see I semi addressed this above. But let me elaborate more.

There are a lot of defensive Pokemon in the current meta that have speed tiers within the 140-200 range. Glastrier, with a jolly nature and 252 speed investment hits 174 speed. Araquanid, with the same investment, hits 201. What holds glastrier back from being on par with araq, among a couple other things, is its speed. All of glastrier's common switch ins can outspeed it with minimal investment, meaning that they don't have to take much away from bulk. If glastrier could hit 201 speed then pokemon such as regirock, jellicent and weezing would all have to hit the 202 benchmark to be able to reliably handle it. This is 108 evs you are taking away from bulk, and this makes these pokemon significantly worse at checking other threats in this tier.

This sort of thing is what starts to make a breaker unhealthy. When you have very few switch ins as is, and those switch ins you do have have to make significant sacrifices to reliably check you. Glastrier's checks do not have to make those sacrifices, and are all common pokemon in the tier whether glastrier is there or not.

 

[gum]

araquanid reminds me a lot of other slow breakers that dropped into the tier at some point in the gen. arctozolt, arctovish, and more recently glastrier, were all seen as potentially stupid when they first dropped but then quickly disappeared off the face of the earth and only get occasional usage. it's especially similar to arctovish, another slow water-type breaker with similar answers. i understand the reaction people have had so far, but i realistically don't see araquanid sticking around as some top tier breaker or anything of the sort, just like the other breakers i compared it to earlier. it really doesn't provide anything worthwhile defensively, which makes building with it in a meta filled with more rewarding breakers like guzzlord and vanilluxe hard to justify from my experience. i get that these two examples are not similar to araquanid in how they work but they still try to achieve the same goal, which is wallbreaking. it's slow, and jolly sets fail to do as much damage as they'd like (u don't even 2hko regirock for example, a pokemon u "force out") while not being particularly fast either. having to choose between boots and lefties is something that hampers it even more, and i don't think teams that are weak to it fare any better against other physical / mixed water-types like arctovish (again), kabutops, and basculin, yet i think most people can agree that none of these are too much for the tier to handle; they just don't provide enough for teams to be worth using most of the time

i'd like to end this post by saying that these are just my thoughts for the time being, and that may end up changing in the next two weeks, but wanting araquanid gone as if the tier doesn't currently have more pressing issues to get to simply because it just dropped is not a mentality i agree with. breakers also don't have to offer anything else than being breakers to stay in the tier, and i don't even think araquanid is better than a decent amount of other options

 

[Excal]

araquanid reminds me a lot of other slow breakers that dropped into the tier at some point in the gen. arctozolt, arctovish, and more recently glastrier, were all seen as potentially stupid when they first dropped but then quickly disappeared off the face of the earth and only get occasional usage. it's especially similar to arctovish, another slow water-type breaker with similar answers. i understand the reaction people have had so far, but i realistically don't see araquanid sticking around as some top tier breaker or anything of the sort, just like the other breakers i compared it to earlier. it really doesn't provide anything worthwhile defensively, which makes building with it in a meta filled with more rewarding breakers like guzzlord and vanilluxe hard to justify from my experience. i get that these two examples are not similar to araquanid in how they work but they still try to achieve the same goal, which is wallbreaking. it's slow, and jolly sets fail to do as much damage as they'd like (u don't even 2hko regirock for example, a pokemon u "force out") while not being particularly fast either. having to choose between boots and lefties is something that hampers it even more, and i don't think teams that are weak to it fare any better against other physical / mixed water-types like arctovish (again), kabutops, and basculin, yet i think most people can agree that none of these are too much for the tier to handle; they just don't provide enough for teams to be worth using most of the time

i'd like to end this post by saying that these are just my thoughts for the time being, and that may end up changing in the next two weeks, but wanting araquanid gone as if the tier doesn't currently have more pressing issues to get to simply because it just dropped is not a mentality i agree with. breakers also don't have to offer anything else than being breakers to stay in the tier, and i don't even think araquanid is better than a decent amount of other options

One huge difference between the spider and arctovish is how much better the former is vs jellicent, as it can't be burned and has toxic to directly cripple it. Considering jelli's standing in the meta, this is hugely significant when comparing how often the spider might be used compared to arctovish (who by all means is not bad and is likely unexplored). Araq has much more longevity than the other breakers u cite (vish, kabutops, basculin) thanks to leech life, lefties (yes it can afford this w ease if u know what ur doing in the builder), and its great spd. It's generally better against ferroseed, quagsire, wishiwashi, weezing, and even fat psys like uxie. These are all very good pkmn that shouldn't be brushed aside when comparing the spider to these other water-type breakers. Glastrier is not a great comparison for the reasons vulpix said (altho i think this mon is pretty ridiculous but also unexplored). I take back what I said about "little to no" defensive utility: water bubble is significant and its spd is high, and this isn't the kind of defensive utility that's positive for the meta bc it's a double-edged sword.

I think the council made a small mistake in not giving the spider inteleon treatment. Not that they are both equally busted, rather that the spider is likely bad enough for the metagame that it should have been qb'd w no suspect test. If the tier has more "pressing issues" to deal with, then certainly adding another potentially problematic Pokemon on top of those is not a good idea. Even if u don't think it's potentially problematic, u have two council members itt expressing valid concerns about the mon. When u have a tier that has a lot of problems, you want to narrow the scope of pkmn used if feasible rather than adding more huge threats that will put further constraints on the teambuilder.

 

[sugar ovens]

I've played around fifty matches with or against araquanid after getting reqs, and it is not broken. Nowhere near broken. It's one of those slightly niche B-ranked breakers. You occasionally use it get a nice matchup versus a person who particularly likes bulky jellicent. Viable, unremarkable.

The fact that it was quickbanned and now is getting resuspected is confusing. I wouldn't mind the way it was handled though - if all of the "ban" posts or "i don't know yet but ban anyway" posts didn't make the "we shouldn't introduce this pokemon into the tier because it wouldn't provide additional utility or value and it would be just an another threat you have to prepare for" argument. No - you shouldn't - usage stats already did it. No, offensive pokémon without defensive utility should not be just filtered out of drops. It irks me that with a dubious quickban half of the discussion is now "would we improve the tier by unbanning this PUBL mon?". It doesn't matter. Suspect test the threats that already centralize the tier and constrain building, not what is essentially a random offensive mon that just happened to drop only because it is easy.

So, Araquanid is a wallbreaker. It functions slightly differently, it's not as reliant on predictions as some of the choiced breakers but it has other drawbacks. It is fairly difficult to get in, particularly against more offensive teams - it's not some exeggutoresque threat that would freely switch in on half of the meta - for Araquanid it's just bulky jellicent (potentially it can still toxic you on the switch or run everyone-look-how-broken-araq-is-i'm-so-forced-to-use-unviable-sets amounts of speed), ribombee (unless specs), and a couple of other bulky mons that can cripple it, u-turn on it, sleep it or heavily damage it on the switch. So- nothing outstanding. Pivoting moves, riskier plays. The other part of "get it in", what do you get it in against? The amount of pokémon Araquanid can beat 1v1, force out, set a Substitute on is fairly disappointing. JelliBee, unboosted Eldegoss, passive blobs and some of the Rock- and Ground- types - if they are sufficiently chipped or if you are willing to sacrifice Araq for damage, as most of them can live a Liquidation and Rock Blast/Head Smash you back. It's pretty sad to see a Sandaconda set up on your Water-type wallbreaker. So yes, with pivoting support it can do pretty well against some fatter teams, but often it's difficult to position.

Araquanid counterplay is mostly offensive pressure, many general physdef blanket checks and/or water resist work well against it, and with its awkward speed and defensive typing it gets chipped down and revenge killed fairly easily. The best common counters are Weezing and Specs Jellicent, Ferroseed sort of trades, Wishiwashi and Lanturn can pivot in and out, Qwilfish is a viable check, Druddigon takes little damage and chips it, Garbodor trades and there are many other, more niche pokémon like Gourgeist, Trevenant, Poliwrath (Toxic or Rest) etc. Offensively checking it is easy, almost every not-slow pokémon not named Ribombee can pick it off, especially after it's weakened. Fast Flying- and Rock- types are everywhere, pretty much every wallbreaker, Scyther can even get in on a predicted Substitute. Almost every team naturally has at least one of those, usually more. At full health Araquanid's bulk allow it to withstand some attacks like Charizard's Hurricane, but it rarely stays at full health for long. It's very hazard-weak, hates Toxic, uses contact moves - on the other hand against fat it does a decent job staying alive.

It's a weak Arctovish with Toxic. A strong, yet sometimes disappointingly weak Water-type STAB and the ability to overcome Jellicent - at the cost of doing noticeably less damage against the other Water resists and physdef blanket checks. It can make progress, break through its checks eventually, with team support, like every other viable wallbreaker, but in many games it just doesn't do enough to justify it. In some matchups it easily kills two mons, in some matchups it trades itself for some damage or a kill, in some matchups it bashes at its counters and after some plays and misplays it wins or loses, in some matchups its just hard walled or can't get in and does nothing at all. It's not a breaker with free switchins against half of the meta, it's not a breaker that has no defensive counterplay, it doesn't force you to run anything outlandish. It's just another breaker.

Two Araquanid teams that i've been floating around 1550-1600 with that should be okay:

fat w/ coil sanda https://pokepast.es/b1a38193006c5597
scyther uturny spikes https://pokepast.es/4ad20cb9c0211d75

 

[Vulpix03]

I won't address what you said about araquanid itself since it's your opinion and that's the point of the thread. But you seem to have a misunderstanding of other people's arguments and of the councils intentions.

First as for the test itself: pupl is currently going on. It is common practice during large tournaments for councils to err on the side of caution with new drops and be more quick ban oriented. The council decided that araquanid may be too much for the tier and thus decided to quick ban with a suspect test immediately so that if the spider did end up being broken we did not have to deal with it in our biggest tour for a week. In no way is this the "easy" thing to do it's just the correct thing to do in this situation. Sure there are other things in the tier that you can argue deserve a suspect test, and I assure you we have discussed them, but the community at large is and has been torn on what exactly should be tested for a while now. Just because we can't come to a consensus on what is broken within the tier already doesn't mean we shouldn't do our due diligence with new drops.

As for the arguments about araq:. You seem to believe that pro ban arguments are "if a mon doesn't add defensive utility to the tier than we shouldn't add it". This is not the case for any of the arguments posted on this thread. The main reason for banning araq is that it is very dumb offensively. The secondary argument is that it also adds nothing to the tier outside of being dumb offensively. I agree that what a mon does defensively should not decide whether it is/isn't broken offensively (cough, cough drampa and Espeon) however I don't see anyone using that as their main argument on this thread.

I also do find it a bit funny that your one team has araquanid counter araquanid with slow conda but Ig ladder allows that.

On a side note you can argue we should've given guzz the same treatment as araq. however we are indeed human and we don't get everything right.

 

[ManOfMany]

This is my first impressions from 20 or so games attempting to use it on Ladder.

This pokemon doesn't feel that amazing to be honest. It's actually somewhat hard to fit onto a team because of its awkward typing. It's a water-type that is weak to Charizard and Rock-type moves and faces competition from pokemon like Jellicent and Lanturn in teambuilder, who offer way more defensively. Araquanid does have pretty decent bulk on the special side, but its still pretty vulnerable to a lot of common special attacks. It gets few free switch-ins which limits the amount of time it can wallbreak. It might have more bulk compared to something like Magmortar and Gallade but doesn't feel like it gets a free turn any more than them.

As a wallbreaker it does its job. But its breaking prowess in practice doesn't feel quite as oppressive as on paper. Theres a lot the opponent can do with just 1 water-resist or immunity, navigating around one super strong move (Liquidation) and one weaker move (Leech Life). Leech Life without a boosting item is so weak that a lot of Grass-types can just tank it and status in return. (Tangela and Gourgeist can straight up wall it as well). Araquanid is forced into a lot of trades and can be navigated around with multiple bulky pokemon. The substitute + Toxic doesnt solve all your problems either. It's a nice mixup for Jellicent but a lot of people are running heal bell somewhere on their team, and WishiWashis U-turn breaks the Sub.

Don't get me wrong, Araquanid is still a very threatening pokemon to a lot of teams, but I doubt it will even be at the upper echelon of pokemon in the tier. Charizard, Regirock/Gigalith, Galar-Cuno, Scrafty, even the new drop Guzzlord- all these pokemon feel like a larger presence in teambuilding and the Spider really doesn't even feel at that level to me. I agree pretty much everything with Wingless post so far.

EDIT: To clarify, I've been mostly using Boots sets with 252atk/252spe and running Liquidation/Leech Life/Substitute/Toxic. Also been trying Sticky Web over Sub, although I haven't figured out how to make Webs work that well so far in Boots meta.

 

[sugar ovens]

First as for the test itself ...

Let me clarify. In my opinion Araquanid does not deserve a suspect test same way Doublade doesn't, or Glastrier/Comfey didn't in the past. I don't think the suspect test is at all justified, or "correct", as I consider Araquanid to be a good bit below the controversial threats that are already in the tier and as such should be tested before Araq. Opinion, in the end it doesn't matter and definitely not now, there is no harm in testing mons (although it would be good to see how the meta develops with all drops in PUPL play, as Doublade and Guzzlord are very influential), and not wanting to disturb tournaments is fair i guess. So at first i was perfectly content with it, but...

... The secondary argument is that it also adds nothing to the tier outside of being dumb offensively. I agree that what a mon does defensively should not decide whether it is/isn't broken offensively (cough, cough drampa and Espeon) however I don't see anyone using that as their main argument on this thread.

...this argument is used very often, both in this thread and elsewhere - and the rhetoric of "how would freeing this PUBL mon improve the tier & prove how is this PUBL mon not broken" is also very real. You keep saying that there is some kind of a misunderstanding and that it is just a secondary argument - but that argument does matter because it is an argument. I think it is fair to react to something that has been said many times in this thread and elsewhere. It's a drop, the default should be to not ban it, whether it would be a valuable addition does not matter, you are supposed to prove that it's broken. So, i don't really understand where you are going. That I (or anyone else) disagree with something does not mean i do not understand it, and, well, saying something is "secondary" doesn't really mean that it's.. unimportant.. untouchable? or anything. I think after the dont-like-the-decision-hate-the-unbanny-value-thing paragraph I wrote enough about why Araquanid is not banworthy - perhaps one thing I could have mentioned was that Substitute is not as given in-game as on paper and you can add chip or at least control damage - whatever.

As for the team being quite Araquanid weak - you are totally right! In practice the Araquanid matchup was reasonable though. First getting it in safely - Eldegoss threatens to sleep or rapid spin into sleep and other than that there's just Araq itself and a Ditto locked into an appropiate move - plus many common U-turn users like Scyther, Toge, Ribombee can't get it in against something it beats, at least early-game. And even then - Ditto switches in, Araq limits it, Zard revenge kills. By the way, the slow Sanda outspeeds even max speed Jolly Araq, it's just the analysis Ada Perrserker creep plus 8 Speed EVs. In retrospect: could be 8 more in case of a potential Jolly Guzzlord. The team you posted doesn't have a good Araquanid switch-in either, yet i would assume that with Scyther and some careful play it can be kept in control in-game. And in the end, it's probably better to use an Araq-weak team and learn something about Araquanid than to get reqs with a Rest Poliwrath and vote ban because you are forced to use niche mons.

Lastly- this is not a response to Vulpix03, but since i'm already writing a post about.. nothing..? really.. so might as well clarify something else, as i've heard odd things: You are not forced to build with anything weird to deal with Araq. A good offense will be likely naturally okay, stall is not that important but it has tools like Rest Qwil/Weezing. Balance/BO is what Araquanid is good against - it doesn't invalidate, murder, destroy, autowin against the playstyle - and in addition to "offensive pressure" you have a solid number of common checks, plus if you decide to use something off-beat there's a billion niche mons and sets that as well deal with Araquanid. Yup, it's another threat, which in itself does not justify a ban - it's a threat way less broken than others.

 

[Chloe]

After constant deliberation over the last two weeks, after initially being solidly in the pro-ban camp, I've over time become pretty confident I will be voting to allow Araquanid in PU as a result of this suspect test. Over the last few days especially, I've been stuck unable to really do much so I've spammed the ladder with upwards of a couple hundred games just playing with and against Araquanid. These are my thoughts:

Araquanid is not excessively powerful. It is yet another middling breaker in terms of raw offensive output. We have much better breakers, and ones that can similarly abuse passive staples. Araquanid is really nothing special in this regard. Its power level is abysmal on a stat level, which of course Water Bubble compensates for, but there is a very small pool of Pokemon this can actually effectively break through. Importantly, its speed tier is just not good. People in above posts have compared Glastrier and Araquanid, and while I don't think they're really that fairly comparable due to what they break and how they're used, they are both held back by a mediocre speed tier and poor defensive typing. There have been mentions that Araquanid "is just that bit faster" and hence substantially more effective. I don't really see it. A very small amount of popular mons find themselves in this speed tier. One of the more prominent ones, Sandaconda already regularly runs 200 Speed. If Jolly Araquanid somehow takes off as a good set, Sandaconda only needs to run 8 more Speed EVs to outpace this, which it can easily justify. The others, like Lanturn, Jellicent, Weezing are not things Araquanid has a favourable matchup against anyway.

Defensive Rock- and Ground-type Pokemon you'd actually want to run a physical Water-type breaker for are hardly impacted. Pokemon like Aggron, Regirock, Sandaconda aren't even scared out by it unless they've already been sufficiently weakened. Aggron OHKOs after taking 70, Regirock Rock Blasts regardless of whether Araquanid attacks or tries to Substitute. Sandaconda outpaces and can Glare to impair it immensely or Stone Edge to deal with it. Even Gigalith, with minimal physical defensive investment can guarantee a live from Adamant Araquanid Liquidation. The Pokemon it actually forces out are passive ones it can just Substitute on, but other Pokemon can accomplish a similar thing, more reliably. Araquanid is not special here. Additionally, there's really not much it can actually reliably switch into. You're borderline forced to pair it with a slow pivot to efficiently get it in. As I said in the OP, Water/Bug isn't a great defensive typing and this really shows once you use it for a while. A lot of the time while using it, I found myself wishing I was using a stronger and faster breaker, one that had a useful resistance.

Not only this, but it's arguably dead weight against competent offense and stall builds. Against offense it's too slow and pitiful to accomplish anything, and against stall there's generally always something there that can deal with it. Pokemon like Qwilfish, Altaria, Jellicent, Rest Ferroseed, Tangela, etc (Pokemon that have been seen on stall teams in recent times) wall it with relative ease. In general we have enough reliable counterplay. The only current teams it really thrives off of are the Togedemaru balances, the Audino semi-stalls; teams that are incredibly passive and can be abused through any Substitute attacker to begin with. This is not a trend exclusive to Araquanid.

I understand the point of view that Araquanid is "yet another Pokemon we need to account for in the builder" but it really isn't that significant a threat in my eyes. While at first, it may see significant usage in tournament play, this will most likely be short lived once people realise it's not the uber prominent sweeping machine it looks to be on paper. In my opinion, something like Scrafty arguably has less reason to be included in the metagame since its defensive utility isn't necessary and it requires much more preparation in the teambuilder than Araquanid does; however, this is not something I want to look into doing either. My point is solely that using the argument "it has no reason to be included" for a Pokemon that just isn't fundamentally broken in our tier, isn't the right way to be going about doing things.

I think Araquanid is a good Pokemon, but I also believe the posts above from pro-ban points of view have overrated it just a touch in my opinion. I really don't believe it's going to be a sufficiently negative presence in the metagame, one that we'll regret not banning once SCL comes around. I could be proven wrong for sure, but that's my two cents and I'd really like to see it remain in the tier. Thank you for reading!

 

[Hera]

Sets

SubToxic (Araquanid) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Liquidation
- Leech Life / Sticky Web

Choice Band (Araquanid) @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Crunch
- Poison Jab / Sticky Web

Lead (Araquanid) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Toxic

Honestly, I don't have much to say about the spider as I would like to. Everything that has been said about it is already in the above posts, and I see no need to retread points. Personally, my stance is a mix of both sides. I think in terms of breaking power, Arquanid is borderline broken. People say the difference between it and Glastrier isn't massive, but I say it's actually a huge deal. Jolly sets (my personal favorites) hit just above the 200-speed tier that stuff like Sandaconda creeps for, which means a variety of slower breakers such as Perserrker, the aforementioned Glastrier, and Modest Vikavolt, as well as forcing out chipped defensive staples like slow Sandaconda, Garbodor, and the up-and-coming Sandslash. In a vacuum, these Pokemon can threaten Araquanid out, but it's not unlikely for them to be chipped or potentially slowed down by its own Webs. Beyond that, however, it relies on a singular STAB with numerous resistances in the tier, as Leech Life on stuff like PhysDef Edelgard Eldegoss does pitiful damage. SubToxic sets are the most threatening but also decently inconsistent, as while a Water Bubble Liquidation is insanely powerful on the tier's Rock-types, it can't really set up a Sub on much beyond the hella overrated Jellicent, Eldegoss, and non-Scarf Togedemaru. Sometimes, it will be forced to trade versus mons it should beat like Gigalith, and while that's useful on some teams (e.g Zard ones), it's less valuable on a majority of them.

However, I think I will vote to ban it regardless. My reasoning for this comes down to something termi said, which was, "every breaker w/ low defensive utility and a very small pool of switchins that u [sic] add to this meta makes the meta more matchup fishy" and I find this fits Araquanid very well. Water/Bug isn't as bad as people make it out to be (especially with a Burn immunity and great special bulk), but you're still not harding this in on anything without a double or a smart prediction, and while you can maneuver around Araquanid, the amount of direct answers it has is decently limited, especially if you're using Banded sets. With stuff like Gallade, Guzzlord, and Charizard running around, all being various levels of busted, I am finding it harder and harder to build a consistent team that can deal with most of the meta's threats without using unviable mons like Sableye or giving up crucial matchups. This is how teambuilding works, and it has always worked this way; however, I am finding myself counterteaming people in tournaments more and beating their habits instead of teams that stack up well versus the meta as a whole, which I don't believe is healthy in the long run. To me, Araquanid only adds to this constriction, as it will end up being, at the very worst, an annoying B-tier breaker, which is still decently viable. Some people will say this is not the "proper" way to vote, but I didn't slave away on ladder facing 5 Butterfrees with stall for nothing, so I plan on voting to ban it.

Some other stuff:



Some rumbles about Scyther being potentially unhealthy have been heard lately. Knock + U-turn is a powerful combination, as it effectively puts a timer on its checks with minimal support. Unlike something like Charizard, which does a similar thing with Toxic, Scyther can pivot into something that forces its checks out, which means it will rack up more chip for itself and its partners. It's not unlikely, despite its poor bulk, to see Scyther as one of the last mons standing on a team due to its decent Speed tier, Roost, and ability to outlast its checks. For me, I think Scyther is only as good as what it enables. Gallade being broken as fuck and having like 2 switch-ins doesn't help matters, and other powerful breakers like Perserrker appreciate the openings Scyther provides, so I think if Scyther is broken, it's less because it is broken and more because its partners are, and I would rather see its partners gone then Scyther itself. What do other people think about it?



Jumping the bandwagon now, this thing is busted. I've been anti-ban for a while, but the rise of offensive Sub sets have convinced me otherwise. Everything that looks like a decent answer to BU and DD sets crumbles against Sub sets. For example, Quagsire is a pretty solid counter to BU sets, as it can PP stall them, and with a grounded Poison-type, it doesn't even care about TSpikes. However, the Poison from PJab + CC outdamages Quagsire's Recover, meaning Quagsire has to spam Recover if it gets Poisoned (which it has a high chance of doing) and can barely threaten Scrafty back because Unaware also ignores defensive nerfs from CC. Another example: Ribombee is one of the most common Pokemon in the tier for 1v1ing most Scrafty sets as well as its sheer splashability. However, Adamant PJab does around 90 and has a small chance to OHKO, which leads to a 50/50 between Roosting or Moonblasting the Scrafty. Getting Bee into OHKO range isn't hard either considering Sand + possibly coming in on a Knock. Even for teams that have decent counterplay, you're forced to make suboptimal plays to limit it like here. In this game, Ho3n had a Sub Scrafty against xavgb's (a.k.a stresh) Mawile. With a resistance to Rocks, a powerful STAB, Intimidate, and Pain Split, I would argue that Mawile is solid Scrafty counterplay. However, stresh is forced to play 50/50s against the opposing Scrafty with his Rotom, trying to break its Sub and pivot back into Mawile (yeah stresh missed a Gunk Shot but the interaction was going to happen anyway). stresh did guess correctly twice; however, Scrafty had already chipped Mawile and Garbodor enough so that when he Tricked his Scarf to a Lighting Rod Togedemaru, his only play was to hopefully not get flinched too many times and kill Togedemaru, which left it at low health. Scrafty came in a second time to force Mawile into 2HKO range, and once it came in the third time, the game was basically over. Gigalith and Garbodor had too much chip from previous interactions, unboosted Sneasel could not get past PhysDef Eldegoss, and Scrafty cleaned up from there. This is not a perfect analysis and it was just one game, but this is only one example of a game where a powerful Scrafty set can get past standard counterplay.

Edit: Forgot to mention but the rise of Roseli DD sets also make me worried. You can EV it to live Moonblast from all the relevant targets as they switch in, and suddenly you're facing a possibly +3/+2 Scrafty with coverage for anything imaginable. The only mons that can switch into this set are Fairyvally (which is one Iron Head flinch away from dying) and Quagsire. Yes, you lose the defensive utility of BU Scrafty, but Guzzlord dominating the tier makes this point increasingly null.



Just a quick question for various players: how do you prep for Gallade? When you think, "okay, I need to beat Gallade", what moves do you take in builder and in play to ensure Gallade is manageable? I would love to see how other people prepare for Gallade.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Haffling]

As i am Illiterate ill keep this short.

On papper the sub tox set seems near unbeatable, being able to toxic any water immune pokemon while doing massive dmg with liq to anything else. In practice i did not find this to be the case at all, in fact if araq isnt behinde a sub its not scary at all (and even than its kinda mid) keeping araq healthy is a damn chore, being unable to beat or even set up a sub on p much every healthy rock/ground type is annoying to say the least, also being unable to swap into anything without a predict is very cool.

Having played around 200 games, trying out p much every set along the way i can say the only one i even found viable was the subtox one, why waste time on webs when they do nothing, cb is fine but arctovish is right there, most of the time araq just sat in the back and did nothing. Araq defo has good mus, but does it have enough good mus in the tier to were i feel it becomes a rock, papper, scissors meta? No, i dont, could i be wrong about all this? Sure, do i think im wrong? No (atleast not rn)

blame yourself for reading this mess, tyty.

Gallade note: i pray its not sd and move on with my life.
edit: voting dnb

 

[Chloe]

Voting thread is up! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-pu-suspect-process-stage-9-araquanid.3704990/

 

[Chloe]

Araquanid will remain banned from SS PU
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...stage-9-araquanid.3704990/page-2#post-9280262

 

[Excal]

In current form, PU is one of the worst metagames I have ever played. It's ripe with detrimental issues stemming from broken wallbreakers and lack of hazard removal making building consistent teams a tremendous chore and near-impossible without neglecting to cover several pokemon no matter what u do. Speaking from my experience playing this tier in scl last year as well as building + playing it actively the past few months, I think the following needs to be done in order to improve the tier (going in order of smallest to largest problem):

Scyther has no long term answers. It's too fast, too strong, and extremely difficult to damage directly (meaning scyther mostly takes residual damage throughout a battle). Its moves have way too much PP and it is not easy to outlast scyther when paired w the right pokemon. I've found a surprising number of games I've played with experienced players have come down to who wins the scyther tie. Everything that outspeeds it faces the threat of either sustaining a huge amount of damage or outright being OHKOd. I think this pokemon should be banned but there are currently bigger fish to fry. And before u mention corsola as a long-term answer, I tried it and it kind of works but it's still not enough. Luthier vs Osh in slam is a good example of the corsola scyther mu. And if you face scyther paired w ngas weezing to deny regen, then it's completely ineffective.

Snow Warning has no place in PU. We do not have the means to deal with 100% accurate specs blizzard and other coverage these pokemon have consistently. Ice cream is way too strong and happens to have the perfect coverage to deal with its limited answers (flash cannon for ice types and gigalith, water pulse for aggron and coalossal). If you do not run gigalith, you are weak to ice cream unless using a heavy offense; and even if you do run it, ice cream can break through gigalith with flash cannon or even blizzard as long as it hits. Abomasnow isn't exactly "broken" but it's a very good pokemon that's not utilized by a lot of the playerbase currently. I think this ability is far too disruptive to common defensive cores to be a good influence in the meta and the best outcome to deal with these pokemon is to get rid of it entirely. Banning ice cream alone is w/e but I don't think it solves the full problem.

Guzzlord is by a decent margin my biggest issue with the current metagame. Its versatility is far too much and we do not have any good tools to deal with its knock off coupled with the threat of several of its sets. Scouting guzzlord ingame is very difficult and this mindless breaker exacerbates pu's biggest issues, namely the hazard problem. Since you can't feasibly absorb its knock off with any pokemon, it's able to consistently knock several boots a game coupled with doublade spinblocking for long enough to make this scenario a huge issue in the teambuilder. Between specs, cb, mixed, bulky sets, and other unexplored sets, it is not possible to gameplan consistently for this pokemon in the teambuilder or ingame. It's too powerful and has the coverage/utility to mess with all defensive pokemon in the meta while being surprisingly hard to wear down. You can try to say that hazards are the issue here and not guzzlord, but the pkmn's sheer power coupled with the threat of several of its sets simultaneously (esp before scouting it fully) indicates the opposite and makes this argument null & void. I think guzzlord needs to be banned as soon as possible for the metagame's health and competitive integrity.

---

Consider resuspecting Drampa. I want to preface this by saying I was one of the biggest advocators of banning this pokemon during scl, and I think it was the right decision. Drampa and Tsareena could not coexist because they abused each other's checks far too well. However, the metagame is different now, and especially with the reintroduction of doublade, assuming guzzlord is banned, drampa would be a welcome replacement. Unlike guzzlord, it doesn't have knock off and can't run mixed sets, so its answers are a lot more consistent. For example, specs drampa has a lack of longevity and soft checks in eldegoss, jellicent, audino, clefairy, and so on. Because it's locked into its moves, unlike guzzlord, it's much easier to gameplan against in builder + ingame. The biggest sell of the pkmn to me is that I think it would be a healthy form of defensive utility + hazard removal + doublade soft check. The defog sets were amazing to have in the previous metagame, and since we no longer have tsareena, we are really missing this crucial form of removal to help keep hazards under control. I want to make it clear that this pkmn should only come back if guzzlord and ice cream are banned (which they should be). Having drampa, guzzlord, and ice cream in the metagame together may as well be trying ur hardest to make the meta as unbearable as possible

Ty for reading - puval pat

 

[Chloe]

The PU council has unanimously agreed to quickban Guzzlord. While this isn't exactly a conventional quickban due to its timing, Guzzlord dropped to PU less than a month ago and has in that time proven to be an excessive force in the metagame. Its Choice Band, Choice Specs and alternate Life Orb mixed sets have proven too much for the metagame to handle, all sporting different checks and different modes of counterplay. No one Pokemon adequately answers two of these sets. Scouting for these sets isn't exactly simple either. While choiced sets are able to be somewhat mitigated through excessive use of Protect (already proving unhealthy), mixed sets can bypass this without a hassle. In addition to this, Guzzlord's counterplay all gets heavily impaired through the use of Spikes as its ability to freely spam an insanely powerful Knock Off in this hazard-centric metagame cannot be understated. All this, in tandem with the results of the recent survey, have been convincing enough that Guzzlord needs to go immediately.

We would normally turn the decision on Guzzlord into a suspect test; however, Guzzlord's power level is high enough in which we all believe this is justifiable. In addition to the major fact that there are other burning, more contentious issues in the metagame that we would also like to address prior to SCL; a quickban on Guzzlord is justified in our eyes.

This ban will not take effect until Week 6 of PUPL.

Tagging Kris & Marty to ban Guzzlord from PU. Thank you!

 

[Hera]

Just woke up to this and I'm not really behind this ban. It's really late in the gen and I believe the requirements for a quick ban at this point must be something like "super broken mon with actually no counterplay" like Inteleon or Clawitzer were, and I don't think Guzzlord fits that requirement. A more significant issue for me though is that I don't believe Guzzlord to be problematic. A lot of emphasis was put on the guessing game between Choice Band, Choice Specs, and mixed Life Orb sets, but in my experience, I've found that Guzzlord would much rather run a defensive set as the defensive qualities of a Dragon/Dark type with great mixed bulk are often too good to pass up, and the opportunity cost for that versus an offensive set is pretty high. It feels like a mon that's way more threatening on paper than in practice, and I haven't seen a ton of replays that back up the whole "Guzzlord is broken" point. It seems to me that its high usage and winrate are due to the popularity of Doublade hazard stacking builds (of which it is an integral member of) and the centralization around these builds so far in PUPL, which imo isn't anything banworthy. I hope Guzzlord is considered for a resuspect later down the line, as I believe its defensive qualities were a massive boon and covered multiple slots very well.

Ban Galllade please.