Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 4 - POWER (Dynamax Banned)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Should one mon hold all that power?
We're here with our biggest suspect test to date - Dynamax!

Dynamax has been a divisive topic across Smogon's tiering system and Ubers is no different. We previously enacted a Dynamax Clause in order to preserve as many metagame elements as possible as per our philosophy, but as time went on and more Ubers returned to the SS metagame, the limits of the Dynamax Clause became clear. There are too many threats with their strength exacerbated by the mechanic and we cannot afford to do endless suspect testing to make a fitting Dynamax Clause in the Crown Tundra environment. With that in mind, the Ubers Council made the decision to disable the Dynamax Clause with the intent to view the mechanic's power as a whole.

Currently, the most common Dynamax abusers are Necrozma-DM, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Kyogre, and even our newest addition Calyrex-S. From accumulating otherwise difficult to obtain boosts or muscling past various forms of counterplay through incredibly strong attacks with potent side effects (or more likely all of the above at once), Dynamax can turn a single, once manageable threat into a destructive, game ending one immediately. Dynamax's power can also tilt the favor to the attacker as the opponent may have to guess when Dynamax will be used to reactively check it with their own. There is a lot of nuance to the Dynamax mechanic in its relation to the metagame - too much to cover in a single OP. With this test, we offer the discussion and decision to the community: is Dynamax too much for the Ubers metagame? Let's hear your thoughts!

For those looking to qualify, here's the lowdown. We will be using the current SS Ubers ladder for voting requirements. You must create a new Showdown alt using the tag UR9 (Name). This means I could use the name UR9 Nayrz. The alt doesn't have to match your Smogon account, but impersonation of users is forbidden and the account you create will be verified in the reqs thread, so do not cheat in the suspect test. Reach at least 80 GXE after 50 games to be eligible to vote, with less minimum games to play if you have a GXE higher than 80, scaling to a minimum of 30 games @ 84 GXE. The table below outlines this in full and probably better detail:

GXEminimum games played
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
84+30

The test will run until Sunday 15th November, 10pm GMT. If you meet the requirements then post a screenshot in the voting requirements thread - but take note of the criteria outlined there when you do to be eligible!


Council members will be posting their thoughts over the course of the test. Remember: suspect test threads are strictly moderated, so provide good quality posts that are on topic to the active test and engage with other users in a civil manner. Failure to do so will result in deletions and possibly infractions.
 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnus
Moderator
My thoughts on Dynamax in DLC 2 as a member of the SS Ubers council:

The most important aspect when weighing the merits of a game element is how it facilitates interesting choices. A game environment where players can demonstrate skill can only be forged through a combination of game elements that facilitate interesting choices. In such an environment players have a myriad of options to navigate threats, impress upon their own, and can maintain a strong picture of the battle as it unfolds. Unfortunately, Dynamax is clearly a game element where not much thought was put into how it would impact player choice in a singles format.

In its most distilled sense, Dynamax is a mechanic that intends to invalidate the status quo of a 1v1 matchup. A Pokemon that normally checks another Pokemon that isn't Dynamaxed may no longer be able to check that Pokemon when it is Dynamaxed. A Dynamaxed Pokemon suddenly has access to STAB or coverage moves it wouldn't normally have, can suddenly boost stats that it otherwise couldn't, or suddenly has access to weather or terrain support that would normally require coordination with other teammates. The line as to what checks what and what plays work where are often turned into a muddy nebulous gray, dependent upon volatile guesswork as to if or when a Pokemon will suddenly Dynamax. The effect on player choice is astonishing: a substantial degree of control is lost in how teams can structure themselves against offensive threats or how plays can be made to check offensive threats.

Perhaps this wouldn't be an issue if Dynamaxed worked differently; however, only one Pokemon can Dynamax per game, that Pokemon is only Dynamaxed for three turns, and Dynamax is canceled upon switching. These specific mechanics create a permanent imbalance between proactive and reactive play; offensive use of Dynamax is rewarded far greater than defensive use of Dynamax. As a result it's exceedingly more viable to use Dynamax to break through a Pokemon that would otherwise serve as a check than it is to use Dynamax to defensively check a Pokemon it otherwise would not. The reason comes down to Dynamax's mechanics: it's canceled upon switching and can only be used on a single Pokemon. These clash with the two central points of reactive play: switching and the use of multiple Pokemon working in tandem as a defensive core. The impact is again felt with player choice; there is little incentive to utilize the myriad of defensive or reactive tactics the game offers because Dynamax shifts the emphasis in the builder and with play toward offense.

It would only be fair to point out that a competitive game exists with or without Dynamax, and even a simple metric like ladder statistics confirm this. It is however not yet clear how Dynamax impacts higher level tournament play, but the reduction and volatility previously discussed likely means it doesn't fare well. I believe much of the anti-Dynamax sentiment comes down to the fact that most of the players in Ubers have been playing Pokemon for longer than Dynamax has existed, and its reductions in player choice and dramatic shifts in gameplay creates an experience that is both foreign and abridged. Ultimately tiering is about creating a better competitive game for players, and there's little point in tiering to create a game players don't enjoy. In the end I see a ban of Dynamax as both warranted and unfortunate.
 

Ropalme1914

Ace Poker Player
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
Tbh, I'll go a bit (or maybe a lot depending on how much you hate it) against the flow here, but...I'm not entirely convinced Dynamax is banworthy this time. It's still more of a 50/50 sentiment, but unlike last week where I felt it was almost obvious a ban, after playing around it on high ladder I think I'm slightly more geared to no ban than banning it.

Yes, I was one of the people who mostly favored the creation of a Dynamax banlist last time, and I do think it was the right decision, but I hope don't disregard this as simply bias from my side wanting to keep the mechanic here or anything. To start, I think Dynamax here is considerably weaker than in the post-Home metagame. Last time, we had basically invincible mons with it: Defensive DD Necrozma-DM was incredibly bulky while boosting both of its defenses even, but on top of that, it had recovery and could boost its offensive potential. Unlike most setup sweepers, Defensive DD Necrozma also had a good matchup against Ditto, making setup even easier. This time, Necrozma is more pressured with its offensive sets due to the return of Xerneas requiring it to stay healthy, Zacian still is in the tier (although not as good as it once was), and a lot of the new Pokémon simply have a good matchup against it, like Zygarde, Ho-Oh, Yveltal, and Groudon. With that said, I think no Pokémon with Dynamax right now reaches that level or even Zekrom's on post-Home, with the two closest to it being Zygarde and Yveltal in my opinion.

Zygarde got huge buffs this generation: the removal of HP Ice and Arceus makes it so some Pokémon can't really hit it anymore while it doesn't have its best and most splashable check. Its huge natural bulk also makes a perfect combination for Dynamax, and Max Quake boosting Special Defense is the cherry on the cake. On the other hand, it got some new problems when some Pokémon try to deal with it offensively: Eternatus is fast, bulky, and doesn't care about Dynamax's doubled HP, making it considerably harder to set up. Zacian can outpeed it even at +1 if running Jolly, same goes for Calyrex. Zygarde is also known for needing multiple boosts to actually start going due to its low base Attack, so Pokémon like Kyogre, Xerneas, Yveltal and a few others being so good does make it a bit harder to actually steamroll unless you keep outplaying the opponents with doubles when their bring their Necrozma or something. This is the best Dynamaxer imo and the closest to really warrant a ban, but it's on that level I feel.

For Yveltal, it already is pressured enough by Calyrex to run defensive sets, but offensive ones can still put huge work. Max Airstream/Darkness/Flare gives it almost perfect coverage, but when I talk to other people, I feel like they use their memory from National Dex AG (which is a different enough metagame but somehow it's constantly compared to this one when I see people justifying something) interfere here. Specially Defensive Eternatus, Specially Defensive Yveltal (especially with Snarl), Zacian, and multiple others are not going to let this roam free. Although Special Defense drops does make it harder too, I think some are fearing way too much losing their offensive Dynamax and just don't want to use it defensively. Yveltal already needs one Max Airstream to truly become the monster that we fear, so between the three turns it doesn't have much time to acummulate the drops actually, especially if you go for Max Guard.

For the 1v1 argument that Minority provides: I think it's fair, but it's to a way lesser extent than people think. A lot of the time, your check actually still works even with the opponent Dynamaxing, and when they don't, they can also at least force a trade. Dynamax Xerneas is incrediby, but without prior damage, it won't beat Zacian without some chip. Dynamax Calyrex gets a strong Fairy coverage move, but it still doesn't save it from Yveltal's Sucker Punch (and with a Dark-type alive, getting your Psychic Terrain up is super risky). Scarf Kyogre will still lose on the long term against Specially Defensive Eternatus or Utility Umbrella Blissey. And like I mentioned before, most of the time this is not counting with your check's Dynamax. Very few matchups actually turn around and stay that way with a defensive Dynamax, even if your Pokémon is a bad Dynamax user, as simply wasting 2 out of the three 3 turns your opponent has is pretty big.

To add to that, one thing that also made me get that mindset of Dynamax not being as broken as I initially thought were the playstyles of the teams I found on my road to 1800 on the ladder. Despite, in theory, Dynamax heavily favoring offensive styles due to the sheer power of it making it a "race for who can open the path for it first", instead of that happening, I saw a lot of balance teams, and pretty consistent ones at that (including myself running a balance/BO team despite using HO on basically any other gen). Dynamax abusers that would run the meta like we theorized before the DLC released, like Rayquaza, felt extremely underwhelming as that's not how the game is working. I did get my fair share of sweeps thanks to it (most coming from Zygarde), but they weren't Team Preview wins or "one missplay from my opponent" wins, I still needed to open the path for it in general, and when I did have the "one missplay win", they just lost to Zygarde regardless of that. I used a lot of Dynamax to help me deal with Pokémon that would more do that to not lose the game or open the path for a win than actually winning with it directly, especially with SpD Yveltal. Reactive play is not thrown out here: I would argue that a lot of what I saw were Dynamax allowing more reactive play than the other way around.

To close this out: I'll repeat what I said on the opening that I'm more 50/50 instead of totally convinced from either side. But I do ask that, instead of blinding saying to ban it due to every other banning it or basing it around the post-Home and post-Banlist metas, that you do play more extensively on this meta as it's not working like our speculation were thinking. Again quoting Minority, we don't know how this will impact high level tournament play due to them not happening, but this is simply it: we don't know. On the ladder, it does feel manageable from my point of view, and although I know I'm not at the highest level of play, at least considering tours (probably not even close to that), I would really appreciate if everyone read through all of this and consider taking a second look at it, as I understand the sentiment from both people who want the ban and who don't.
 
We should be suspecting the ghost rider instead of dynamax.

Any discussion we may have about dynamax will be contaminated, since ghost caly can dynamax itself. Non-scarf variants can survive a scarf ogre water spout under dynamax, lol. Any other dynamax abuser pales in comparison to the sheer power and versatility of the monster that is ghost caly.
 
I'm going to make a mental note to better chronicle my experiences playing other iterations of Ubers next time so I feel more confident putting in my two cents on subjects like this.

I will say this: pre-HOME, I thought Dynamax was a healthy addition. A lot of that can be attributed to Zacian, Zamazenta, and Eternatus not being able to Dynamax while everything else could. Besides enabling several non-Ubers to function alongside them, there wasn't much that could exploit the mechanic, especially since the aforementioned trio had signature attacks that did double damage to Dynamaxed mons. Maybe the 9 intermittent months between then and now have fogged up my memory, but I don't recall feeling like there were any standout Dynamax abusers during this time.

After HOME came out, several other Ubers were reintroduced. The difference between these and the mascots of SwSh? They could all Dynamax. Necrozma-DM was a particularly notable abuser of this mechanic. I had a set that ran Weakness Policy with Earthquake, Sunsteel Strike, Photon Geyser, and Trick Room, and about the only things that ever really had a chance to stop it were Sash Marshadow, Reshiram, and occasionally Lunala. While I don't recall seeing a whole lot that abused it as cancerously as Necrozma-DM, there were still some pretty annoying mons to face and it did feel less healthy than it did before. I agreed with the eventual choice to ban already-Ubers from Dynamaxing, and I thought the metagame felt a lot healthier after they implemented it.

And today? I'm honestly wishing Necrozma-DM were still the most cancerous Dynamax abuser. Meet Spexrex (my personal name for it), who is faster than Zacian-C, has a Sp. Atk comparable to Zacian-C's Attack, and boosts said Sp. Atk every time it gets a KO. On top of that, other major abusers like Zygarde and Kyogre have already been brought up, and... yeah, I'm kind of missing the proverbial "age when wolves were kings" era of SwSh Ubers.

So where do I stand regarding banning Dynamaxing at this exact moment? Honestly, I'm not really sure. There's a part of me that thinks I'm just being a bit too stubborn about adapting to the new meta and that I need more practice with it, but there's also a part of me that can't help but smell a rat when the entire metagame begins revolving around various things Dynamaxing. I'd say my top choice would be to reinstate the Dynamax Clause that was already on the books, but if that option is off the table, then... well, get back to me in about a week or so and I might have an answer then.
 
We should be suspecting the ghost rider instead of dynamax.

Any discussion we may have about dynamax will be contaminated, since ghost caly can dynamax itself. Non-scarf variants can survive a scarf ogre water spout under dynamax, lol. Any other dynamax abuser pales in comparison to the sheer power and versatility of the monster that is ghost caly.
This type of logic just leads to a long string of things getting banned, instead of the actual problem being Dynamax.
If we banned Calyrex-S because it can tank a few hits under Dynamax, then why won’t the next broken Dynamax abuser wreck the meta?
We have some pretty strong contenders like Necrozma-DM, Calyrex-I, Xerneas, Yveltal, Rayquaza, Ho-oh, Zygarde-C, Naganadel, Kyurem-B, Kyogre, Groudon, and Zekrom.
That’s just the list of Ubers alone.

And this isn’t theoretical either. We know trying to ban “only” the broken things under Dynamax didn’t work in DOU. They banned all sorts of things that originally were fine, until realizing that they should have banned Dynamax.

Also what does it really say that Calyrex-Scan survive a Scarf Water Spout only with Dynamax? It’s not like surviving a Water Spout while Dynamax is exclusive to Calyrex-S. Hell, Rayquaza can already survive a Max Water Spout without Dynamax.
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza: 162-192 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
Here is also Dynamax of decent bulk Pokemon.
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Yveltal in Rain: 456-537 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Rain: 466-549 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Xerneas in Rain: 229-270 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 12 HP / 48 SpD Dynamax Zygarde in Rain: 444-523 (61.6 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 12 HP / 48 SpD Dynamax Zygarde: 476-564 (66.1 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yeah, tons of ubers already are incredibly tanky while Dynamax, and Rayquaza can even Dynamax to survive a Water Spout (although that is a resist and Air Lock, but if we took into account Typing, Calyrex-S is still easily beat by Yveltal even while Dynamax).

You can save your opinions on Calyrex-S if it actually does get suspected. If Dynamax is banned, I kind of doubt it, as it’s missing a lot of what made Mega Rayquaza so broken.
 
Played through and got reqs, will 100% be voting ban. I feel like it particularly limits offensive teams ability to deal with other offensive threats, as for 3 turns your offensive check/countermeasure outright cant deal with the thing its meant to. Dynamaxing in response is not sufficient, especially I might already have Dynamax'd, and it sometimes doesnt even matter if I do because this removes my priority/choice effect which is what enabled offensively checking a threat like Geoxern in the first place. I dislike how limited this makes me feel in building with offense, and Dynamax is incredibly restrictive in the builder when it comes to defensively dealing with threats too in my opinion.

I just want to say as well, I really am loving Regieleki at the moment. Once the two ground types in the tier go down, its super tough to actually deal with for offense, and has utility in Volt/Thunder Cage for against bulkier teams as well. Its comparably strong to life orb Rayquaza in damage output, while outspeeding everything it sees, and gives spin as team support option. Technically it also gets screens but I'd prefer Grimsnarl for that role.

252 SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 276-325 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 285-335 (70.5 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It hates Zygarde, obviously, but from the suspect ladder Groudon tends to be worn down very quickly if it isnt outright offensive. I kinda want to try pairing it + a goth that can trap Zygarde, but that would have - defensive utility as a starting point of a team.
 

ThelordofbadRNG

Banned deucer.
1604362224395.png

Yo, I usually don't make these kinds of posts and moreso just get reqs and then randomly base my vote off a coinflip but a few quick thoughts from my laddering session which I also woulda gone 30-0 for but didn't because of luck.

From every game I've played and spectated I'm definitely leaning toward ban because a common thing I've noticed in all these games that decides who won is who used up their dynamax first. Usually through a combination of max move effects, stat changes and the like I came to realize that this increases odds for whom we can say are "worse" in the matchup and its honestly very punishing when you did everything in your power for a win only for game mechanics to be used in intended (?) ways. Another thing I want to note out is the extreme amount of 50/50s this causes. For instance in a Xerneas vs Ditto mirror if the Xerneas player preserved their dyna they can safely use it up and maneuver around Ditto and this leads to a scenario where the Ditto user also has to use up their dyna to have a fair shot at KOing a potent threat which they'd otherwise not have enough power to muscle through. And it doesn't help that the mechanic cancels out choice item boosts and the like. That's all I have for now but my vote comes down to the coinflip anyway. :psysly:
 
You know, I've been playing a lot on Ladder, trying to get reqs for this suspect test. I came in this with a very spiteful mindset. I told myself about how terribly balanced this mechanic would be, even months before Swsh was released. Seeing what essentially is Z-moves but on steroids really turned me off. You could blow past all your checks, make your stats ridiculously high, doubling your HP stat, can set weather, and the restrictions had made me think this mechanic would be way too strong for any tier.

Spending pretty much the entire day laddering, getting more experience with the mechanic, I now have an evolved perspective on the matter. I was previously a huge advocator for the removal of Dynamax everywhere. I would like to say that my opinion is much more positive about Dynamax.




Nah just kidding. I loath this god awful mechanic even more having to Ladder with it enabled.
Among all things I have experienced in my life, having to ladder with Dynamax enabled is definitely up there among having a catheter up my urithra after painful surgery for my hips.

Jesus Christ. Please off the love of all gods among all religions, disable Dynamax for the Ladder while Suspsect test happens.
Hell, disable it forever.
Why do we even have this suspect? We all very well know this unholy hell spawn of a mechanic is going to be banned.
You know it.
I know it.
People who like the mechanic know it.
The people who will vote No Ban know it.
The fetuses which do not have any form of intelligence yet knows it.
It absolutely does not at all deserve to be the false identity a manageable mechanic by having a suspect test.

Quick ban it, so that literally everyone can get on with their lives, and stop giving a shit about some 12 year old Verlisify fan pissing and shitting themselves about how we banned a core mechanic. As if people wouldn't advocate to change many aspects of competitive Pokemon. Dynamax just so happens to be one of those.


To add why I think this, we need to look deeper as to what makes a good competitive scene, and what people look for in playing games competitively.
You know what it is?
Reliability, the many skills offered in the game, and creativity.
Now Pokemon is already of the riske side of this already, given that a lot of the game has RNG elements (which I would totally 100% support a complete overhaul of mechanics and rebalancing every thing about battling just to remove RNG).
Despite this, Pokemon generally falls under these principles nicely.
That is until Dynamax throws a wrench into that idea. All those ideas are thrown out the window because of this abomination of a mechanic.

There is 0 reliable strategy against Dynamax, the many skills of Pokemon that attract many players are absent when this is available, and it leads to an uncreative and tiresome meta.
100% of the games I have been playing on ladder currently felt like neither party had any cognitive functioning while playing, and it felt completely random with who ever had the right lead winning most of the time. Every single time Dynamax was used, it's used in exclusively 3 ways, either breaking past a wall, to get out of Encore or Choice item, or to survive a hit from another Dynamax user.
Every
Single
Time
Just full autopilot.
Is this what people really want to play? What essentially is cavemen bashing 2 big sticks on each other?
Despite how complex the actual mechanic itself is, those complexities only serve to dumb down the game as much as possible.

I also want to take an exert from this this video.
Yes, it is a Team Fortress 2 video, but the it still very much applies to this discussion, which is about keeping new players dumber. In the video, it's about the Random Crits mechanic in TF2 (Fitting huh), where the mechanic hinders the progress of new player's skill. It's illustrated in a GSC battle, as to demonstrate the interaction that would happen in seconds, where the respective players have to use their knowledge of several weapons, mechanics, damage, tactics, and more. In the end, the Demoman loses, but learns a valuable lesson by losing. This in turn helps develop their skill level. Uncle Dane then goes through the scenario again, but instead adds a random crit, which teaches the Demoman nothing about the game besides shooting erratically will just solve everything.

Dynamax creates a similar problem.
Pokemon competitively is beyond just crits and rps typings. There is a lot to learn on your own by playing the game. I remember just spamming my STABs with my in game teams, as long as it was super effective, and I had no idea the benefit of switching was until I started learning from my mistakes. Learning things like how to deal with set up sweepers, that walls can be dealt with by means other than attacking them, when you should or shouldn't advance, and more elements about Pokemon are all thrown away when Dynamax is involved.

You know that Encore can be used to get an advantage over sweepers or attackers?
Well too bad. Your opponent can just Dynamax and completely ignore this valuable information because it bypasses it.
You know that a common way to beat strong temporary effects like rain and trick room can be stalled out with protect, or by simply tanking those hits?
Well too bad. Dynamax is a strong temporary effect that creates other strong temporary effects while bypassing protect and hitting you hard with 3 moves.
You made a mistake by letting your opponent set up too many boosts? Or maybe you are locked into an Icicle Crash while an offensive Pokemon with a type resist is about to punish your mistake?
Don't worry. Just double your HP on the fly while also releasing your lock so you can use your coverage moves just in case.
You have memorized the front and back of the speed tiers, knowing which Pokemon will be moving first, and you keep a damage calculator at all times to ensure your Pokemon is safe to do this action?
Cool. But your opponent's Rayquaza started spamming Max Airstream (or literally anything with flying moves) with a whooping 140 BP for 3 straight turns, so it now outspeeds everything immediate besides Ditto, while having safely KOd at least a few of your Pokemon because of that double HP.

All the knowledge you have acquired through your history of Pokemon battling all becomes null for more than 3 turns as Dynamax simply just says "No" to it, and you learn nothing from it.
It's a worthless mechanic that does not deserve recognition of anything better.
 
Not much to say about Dynamax, I don't get why it was unbanned.
I'm not adding a lot, Dynamax creates awkward situations where even a decisive lead can be turned into a sweep, only because the boost given by dynamax are just too much, double HP and plenty of boosts possible. There's no deal, even Z-moves and Mega-evolutions cannot be compared to it, as they where restricted to one Pokémon and/or once in a turn, though they were pretty predictable.
Ban it.
 
The dynamax ban hysteria is ridiculous. Trying to guess what your opponent will happen even if there's no dynamax. Isn't that what people refer as "skill"?

If you can't predict dynamax, you're bad at this game. It's extremely obvious for me when people will dynamax. I got my reqs by coasting by with Abomasnow and Solgaleo. If that isn't a sign of a healthy Ubers metagame, then I don't know what is.
 
Last edited:
At the start of Gen 8, I was in favor of having Dynamax because it was a generation-defining mechanic (permanent weather, mega evolving and z-moves for previous instances) available for use. I believe that these examples from prior gens make the game more fun and create healthy mental, in-game interactions between the players. Dynamaxing is a completely different breed of danger, though. Its introduction brings another chaotic element of randomness and unpredictability to an already volatile game. In my opinion, it creates a near-infinite amount of scenarios where the game is taken out of the hands of the players, as they must now account for any of the pokemon on the opposing team potentially swinging the momentum of the game by dynamaxing. Often, the only way to respond to dynamax sweepers and their respective moves, speed-boosting ones or otherwise, is by reactively dynamaxing your own pokemon to prevent a snowball effect. Because this snowball effect can take place in just three turns, and can literally happen with six pokemon on the opposing team, any and all long-term planning that happens during the course of a game can potentially be flung out the window. We strive to make a metagame that is as competitively balanced and fun as possible, and I don't believe that dynamax has a place in that. For these and other reasons pointed out by other council members, I am in favor of banning Dynamax.
 
I think what causes me to be for a complete Dynamax ban are two factors surrounding it: overcentralization and uncompetitiveness. While it can be argued that both of these on their own is fine in the Ubers tier (e.g Zacian-C is overcentralizing but not uncompetitive, Moody is uncompetitive but not overcentralizing), the combination of these two makes Dynamax an objectively broken mechanic in a singles tier.

But why exactly is Dynamax both overcentralizing and uncompetitive? Well, Dynamax is inherently overcentralizing because it is the ultimate win condition. If a player uses Dynamax correctly (which isn't hard due to the very unbalanced risk-reward factor in using it), all means end up being used for the purpose of Dynamax. For example, why are you setting hazards such as Webs or Rocks? So any random Sashes/Scarfs are neutered so your Dmaxer can sweep. Why is one using mons such as Ditto or Scarf/Sash Marshadow? So you can combat Dynamax effectively. Ultimately, unless your team is stall, your entire gameplan becomes built around both abusing Dynamax and preventing the opponent from abusing Dynamax effectively, and this becomes unhealthy for really any singles tier (just look at something like AG). However, to add onto this, Dynamax is uncompetitive because of the previously mentioned risk-reward factor that is skewed heavily in favor of the abuser. It takes one turn, or sometimes even none, to pull the match directly out of the opponent's hand when using Dynamax. The only solution to this would be constant offensive pressure on the mon you think will Dynamax, but the fact is that the user can simply save their Dynamax until they force the opponent into an unfavorable position, and multiple mons on a team being able to Dynamax makes it much harder for the opponent to accurately predict which mon will Dmax.

This is why I see Dynamax as unhealthy: it is both an uncompetitive and overcentralizing mechanic that isn't fit for Ubers, even with a complex ban like Dynamx Clause, because teams will end up adapting with strong below-Uber level Dmaxer. Ban it.
 
This type of logic just leads to a long string of things getting banned, instead of the actual problem being Dynamax.
If we banned Calyrex-S because it can tank a few hits under Dynamax, then why won’t the next broken Dynamax abuser wreck the meta?
We have some pretty strong contenders like Necrozma-DM, Calyrex-I, Xerneas, Yveltal, Rayquaza, Ho-oh, Zygarde-C, Naganadel, Kyurem-B, Kyogre, Groudon, and Zekrom.
That’s just the list of Ubers alone.

And this isn’t theoretical either. We know trying to ban “only” the broken things under Dynamax didn’t work in DOU. They banned all sorts of things that originally were fine, until realizing that they should have banned Dynamax.

Also what does it really say that Calyrex-Scan survive a Scarf Water Spout only with Dynamax? It’s not like surviving a Water Spout while Dynamax is exclusive to Calyrex-S. Hell, Rayquaza can already survive a Max Water Spout without Dynamax.
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza: 162-192 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
Here is also Dynamax of decent bulk Pokemon.
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Yveltal in Rain: 456-537 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Rain: 466-549 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Xerneas in Rain: 229-270 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 12 HP / 48 SpD Dynamax Zygarde in Rain: 444-523 (61.6 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 12 HP / 48 SpD Dynamax Zygarde: 476-564 (66.1 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yeah, tons of ubers already are incredibly tanky while Dynamax, and Rayquaza can even Dynamax to survive a Water Spout (although that is a resist and Air Lock, but if we took into account Typing, Calyrex-S is still easily beat by Yveltal even while Dynamax).

You can save your opinions on Calyrex-S if it actually does get suspected. If Dynamax is banned, I kind of doubt it, as it’s missing a lot of what made Mega Rayquaza so broken.
I just gave an example of the power of the ghost, in order to show that one of the strongest wallbreakers Ubers has to offer cannot do the job against the ghost.

I just wanted to point out that there is a much bigger problem in our hands rather than Dynamax. I also wanted to stress that as long as Caly is around, we cannot have a proper discussion about dynamax. This is because you are practically forced to run a spdef Yveltal, which is a shame, and eventually you can play around it, not mentioning that the opponent will get a free Xerneas switch, which by the way, can geomancy and then dynamax itself.
This is why most teams are using a ditto, because not even priority can kill it if you let it Dynamax and set terrain.

Now imagine a world without dynamax. It can be used defensively, you know. Or you can use it to survive hits, like zygarde against a water spout ogre. Without dyna, nothing not named Yveltal will be able to survive a boosted barrage. In sum, you will create a more centralized meta without dynamax, one in which the ghost will reign supreme.

That’s why I’m up for a no ban vote unless something is done about Caly.
 
The dynamax ban hysteria is ridiculous. Trying to guess what your opponent will do happen even if there's no dynamax. Isn't that what people refer as "skill"?

If you can't predict dynamax, you're bad at this game. It's extremely obvious for me when people will dynamax. I got my reqs by coasting by with Abomasnow and Solgaleo. If that isn't a sign of a healthy Ubers metagame, then I don't know what is.
It's not even the real problem (though it doesn't help). The real thing is : double HP and absurde boosts. Even predict correctly, because of the boost, the risk/reward is extremely low. Even used badly, it can turn an unwinnable game into a win just because it's impossible to check efficiently. That's why everyone is saying that it must be ban.
(Plus I did this suspect with BU Palkia, it doesn't mean the meta is healthy.)
 
I just gave an example of the power of the ghost, in order to show that one of the strongest wallbreakers Ubers has to offer cannot do the job against the ghost.

I just wanted to point out that there is a much bigger problem in our hands rather than Dynamax. I also wanted to stress that as long as Caly is around, we cannot have a proper discussion about dynamax. This is because you are practically forced to run a spdef Yveltal, which is a shame, and eventually you can play around it, not mentioning that the opponent will get a free Xerneas switch, which by the way, can geomancy and then dynamax itself.
This is why most teams are using a ditto, because not even priority can kill it if you let it Dynamax and set terrain.

Now imagine a world without dynamax. It can be used defensively, you know. Or you can use it to survive hits, like zygarde against a water spout ogre. Without dyna, nothing not named Yveltal will be able to survive a boosted barrage. In sum, you will create a more centralized meta without dynamax, one in which the ghost will reign supreme.

That’s why I’m up for a no ban vote unless something is done about Caly.
You are definitely not forced to use defensive Yveltal just for Caly.

252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 155-183 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 174-205 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO

As we see, Calyrex can't 2hko offensive Yveltal without specs. All versions of Yveltal except Scarf/Band use either Oblivion Wing or Roost. Yveltal will always force Calyrex out. Banded and Scarfed Yveltal always carry Sucker Punch anyway.

With Dynamax banned, Calyrex can no longer cheese Yveltal with Max Starfall.
 
It makes sense to talk Dynamax first, as every mon can do it at any time. Calyrex is just one mon, and even if it is very strong, it can never affect the metagame as a whole as much as Dynamax does. I think. At the beginning of SWSH, Dynamax was suspected before anything else was even up for discussion, so we're just following suit.
 
You are definitely not forced to use defensive Yveltal just for Caly.

252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 155-183 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 174-205 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO

As we see, Calyrex can't 2hko offensive Yveltal without specs. All versions of Yveltal except Scarf/Band use either Oblivion Wing or Roost. Yveltal will always force Calyrex out. Banded and Scarfed Yveltal always carry Sucker Punch anyway.

With Dynamax banned, Calyrex can no longer cheese Yveltal with Max Starfall.
True, but offensive Yveltal can come in just a few times, whereas defensive variants can stay longer in the match. Not to mention that offensive variants don’t use HDB; therefore, are susceptible to chip damage from hazards. And your calcs don’t take into account that variables.
But still, from my perspective, I don’t see dynamax as overcentralizing as caly. Generally speaking, the one who uses dynamax first loses. And the use of the mechanic is blatantly obvious in many cases. It’s almost always after a boost. And the dynamax abusers therefore reduces to three relevant mons: zygarde, xern and NDM. So the alleged unpredictability of the mechanic is not as such in practice.
That’s why Yveltal must carry knock off as mandatory: to strip power herb on the switch, and therefore, special variants are weaker imo.
 
I've deleted a lot of offtopic discussion posts here and want to clarify two things:

1 - The reasoning behind no longer doing the Dynamax Clause or any sort of complex ban on the mechanic has been covered extensively, even in the very OP of this thread. There is no excuse to be oblivious as to why Dynamax itself is being suspect tested here over doing a complex solution.

2 - The Calyrex-S discussion is borderline offtopic. We believe Dynamax is the major obstacle to metagame development and wanted to evaluate that outcome before deciding anything about Shadow. If Dynamax is banned its a very different metagame to assess its power in, so there is little point to doing Shadow first and Dynamax after if we believe Dynamax is the bigger overall problem.

Keep posts strictly on topic to the Dynamax suspect test in the future.
 
Dynamax should not be banned in my opinion.

Uber is the one of the only tiers that it is allowed in and if you remove it, uber loses its character.

I don't believe it is overcentralizing either. That dishonour goes to Ditto.

Dynamax only lasts 3 turns and although there aren't any Tapus in ubers, there are still viable weather changers in the tier to compensate. As for the argument of steamrolling with boosts, I never see Sp Atk boosts because no one uses Max Ooze and Max Knuckle isn't great because fighting types struggle in Ubers. At best you get pokemon that can set up a terrain and get maybe a defence boost or 2. Also with the terrain nerfs it's not as big a deal.
 
It would be great if more people could share high-level replays, gives everyone a better idea to judge the current meta - as there are no notable tours except the Kickoff one. From what I've seen so far, this meta is absolutely horrid but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
 

Stallion

Tree Young
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
I started laddering fresh for Stage 4 and got recs, except I didn't because I used my main instead of an account with the correct acronym. (84.1% GXE in 34 games played).

However, looking at the general sentiments in this thread, my vote (which would be to ban Dynamax) won't be needed it seems. It's a stupid mechanic and makes Pokemon like Calyrex-Shadow unstoppable if the opposing team doesn't have an Yveltal (which at the moment has Primal Groudon Gen 7 levels of usage).
 
I'm going to be voting Ban; there's not much that hasn't already been said but I'll try to give my take anyway.

On the surface, the ability to turn counters into checks and checks into Not A Check Anymore Unless It Also Dynamaxes was clearly designed to turn matches into a game of chicken where whoever Dynamaxes first loses. This on its own already contradicts the matchup-based nature of Pokemon as a game and reduces the influence of teambuilding and preparation, but in a tier full of easily deployable offensive win conditions like Geoxern or Shadow Rider it's a tad hairier than that. The sheer number of Pokemon that only need a single turn of setup (or in some cases zero turns) before they can Dynamax and become uncounterable (and uncheckable barring a reactive Dynamax) means that either player only needs a single free turn with any of the potent abusers (and there are a LOT of them in this metagame) before being handed the game-defining momentum advantage if not just outright winning right there. The closest thing to counterplay is attempted prevention - to play around the potential for Dynamax both players have to make sure that whatever they have or put on the field never enables free entry to any of the other player's potential Dynamax abusers. This obviously does not work in practice due to how many abusers there are in the tier.

It's a win condition that requires little-to-no setup, the first player to get it going wins, and its extremely versatile nature means there isn't any counterplay as much as there is damage control. When correctly executed, Dynamax is unstoppable and removes a large amount of the forethought and decision-making required by both players by deciding the outcome of the match almost immediately. I'd rather be playing a game of Pokemon than a game of Who Can Press Geomancy First so, again, I'll be voting ban.
 
Last edited:
I'm voting ban, and here are my thoughts on Dynamax (in both the good? and bad)

Dynamax itself is a very powerful mechanic as we all know, but it turns mons that aren't checks into half decent answers, a good example of this is Zygarde 50, before Dynamax it takes 78% min from a timid non specs Kyogre's Ice Beam if its fully invested in spdef and HP (See Calc below).

252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 328-388 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 456-540 (108.5 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Offensive Zygarde with max HP)

With Dynamax it takes 46.1% max as a Spdef Zygarde, and if Zygarde clicked Max Quake that turn they subsequently get a spdef boost to live the next hit even better (30.9 Max), which then allows Complete Zygarde to surface and take even less damage from a quad weakness (20.4% to +1 Spdef Zygarde), and at this point its probably clicked Max Quake twice for the third hit which means Kyogre isn't in range of killing it, save a stray crit or freeze that Zygarde cannot thaw from.

252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dynamax Zygarde: 220-260 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dynamax Zygarde-Complete: 328-388 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dynamax Zygarde-Complete: 220-260 (17.2 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO

One of, if not, the top dynamax abusers is Caly-S, base 150 puts it faster than Zacian Crowned and with a single KO outright OHKO's with max Phantasm, and then you could even finish a weakened mon off using Max Mindstorm to stop Caly-S from being revenge killed through common priority users like Yveltal (which are being forced to run sucker punch to counteract Caly normally as well as a few other threats) and Marshadow (which after rocks means sash Marshadow is no longer an effective means to beat it). The next best abuser is Xerneas, since Dusk Mane Necrozma is the prime answer to Zacian they can't really afford to run much spdef bulk which allows Xerneas just the perfect chance to Geomancy and Dynamax and just kill with 2 max lightnings without forcing Dusk Mane Necrozma to also Dynamax, since that is the only way for it to beat it currently since uninvested DM Necro does 43.4% max to max HP Modest Xern without dynamaxing, which ends up burning both sides dynamax (which is typically a good thing since you then can't use the mechanic anymore).

4 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Xerneas: 336-396 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Xerneas: 434-512 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Max Starfall vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 290-342 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 313-369 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Based on Thunder Xern)
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Electric Terrain: 407-479 (51.1 - 60.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (after a first thunder is used)

I'll keep the next two short since one is pretty obvious in how it abuses the mechanic (Ditto) and the other can sweep with just 1 turn of setup (Yveltal)
Ditto is Ditto, it copies the opponent and can lock itself into a move, then when it decides it needs to be able to click other moves which allow it to win, it clicks the dynamax button and can pretty easily revenge sweep if the opponent has lost their answers to their own mon, now the disadvantage of Ditto that can be exploited is that it can only use 5 attacks at a time, so if it copies a mon that can outbulk itself (Say Zygarde C) then ditto can't really abuse dynamax, making bulkier mons a good answer to ditto incoming, but if Ditto is in and its dynamaxed if you lack the answer to your mon then you do lose to it.

Yveltal is a fantastic mon that serves as the main Calyrex-S answer, but it can still function as an offensive sweeper and setting up 1 turn with max airstream typically means you're going to be able to take at least 1 more mon with them (granted that you aren't just using Dynamax mindlessly), using max flare OHKO's Zacian-Crowned and can set up sun for further turns of sun to abuse more max flares, but if you need a speed boost then max airstream gets you that point, and with the options of Dark Pulse and Sucker Punch (from what I've used) you can alternate between physical and special max darkness to catch specially bulky mons off guard.

252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Max Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 330-390 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Max Darkness vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 243-289 (58.4 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Max Darkness vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 230-270 (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Max Darkness vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 374-442 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As I said at the start, I'm voting to ban Dynamax from Ubers, everything in the tier that can abuse it (which is everything bar gen 8 main legends)

EDIT: here's the team I used for the suspect test (if you want to mess around with the team) https://pokepast.es/d59399c61bb02967
Suspect Test Reqs.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top