Hello
wadeeeeeeeee and welcome to the Ubers subforum! I am sure I speak for many of us when I say that seeing new perspectives in suspect threads is very much appreciated. Regrettably, your most recent post is so incoherent that it leaves me questioning whether or not you have in fact played a game of Ubers in your life. Your thesis, that
Zacian-C should be banned due to no safe switch-ins or reliable defensive options.
hits the nail on the head. Just about everything else you say, however, betrays astonishingly little knowledge of Ubers. This may partially be the fault of the Ubers community for not having enough learning resources or not having many threads documenting the metagame until relatively recently — Ubers may seem like an inaccessible tier at first glance, but I'd invite you (and a few others itt) to take a look at our
Viability Rankings and
Sample Teams and watch some high-level SS Ubers replays
here before engaging further. This should save you from making another post that might bewilder some others who are still getting their bearings in the tier. I will try to clear up any potential confusion your post has caused by addressing your points and advancing some pro-ban arguments that are more grounded in the reality of the tier.
Type Advantages.
Most pokemon in ubers (i.e the dragons type) are demolished by play rough. So that rules out Zygarde,Kyurem-White,Kyurem Black,Rayquaza (heavy emphasis on this one), Dracovish, both Giratina forms, Palkia, and Zekrom. The only pokemon that don't take super effective damage from Play Rough are Reshiram,Dialga,Naganadel,and Eternatus. In my last reply I said that Reshiram was a counter.... I am so sorry but NO. For some reason I didn't run calcs for play rough and I realized it gets 2HKO-d.
If you read the
Viability Rankings I linked above you'll see that only twelve (thirteen if you count both Giratinas as separate Pokemon, although I wouldn't) out of sixty-nine viable Pokemon are Dragon types; this is 17 (or 18)% of what has a metagame niche, less than one-fifth of the tier. Of these Pokemon,
usage patterns vary wildly. Yet note that at every level only two, Zygarde and Eternatus, surpass even 13% usage. If you look at the
Sample Teams, only one of them, Icemaster's, has more than one Dragon-type. Though it's true that Dragon is the most represented type in the Viability Rankings, it's unfair to say that most Pokemon in Ubers are Dragon-type. Only three in Eternatus, Zygarde, and Palkia are splashable enough to commonly fit on a variety of archetypes. Unfortunately a number of Dragons you mention (Kyurem-B, Kyurem-W, Reshiram, Rayquaza, and the Giratinas, for instance) just aren't ubiquitous or good enough that Zacian-C beating them is a great reason to ban it.
Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, nobody is proposing any of these Dragons as answers to Zacian-C. You claim that
...Eternatus... [is] not a good answer. +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 246-289 (50.8 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Eternatus also can't touch Zacian-C Offensively. It's a tanky boi so it's not running special attack investment (or at least investment that can make a difference),
yet I can assure you nobody with a grasp on the tier is running Eternatus as a Zacian answer. Even if they were, you wouldn't see 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus — Physically Defensive Eternatus has fallen out of favor since Crown Tundra, yet even if it were common it would be running far less bulk and far more Speed. 40 HP/252 Def/216 Spe Timid was the standard in Isle of Armor, and I often run this much Speed on Eternatus nowadays myself. Eternatus has an unprecedentedly high base Speed stat for a primarily defensive Pokemon, and running nearly max Speed on it is viable if not encouraged because it helps it check Marshadow. It's the same story for the far more common Specially Defensive Eternatus, which often opts to outpace Palkia at minimum. Investing less in a defensive stat to get more use out of Eternatus's high base Speed is standard — you sacrifice some bulk to better pivot and revenge kill things, which makes Eternatus a bit less good versus things it doesn't check like Zacian-C but gives it much higher utility overall.
That said, you do sometimes see people leaving Eternatus in on Zacian-C. Why? This is less because they consider Eternatus a Zacian-C answer and more because Zacian-C is terrifying to switch into. Sometimes sacrificing a chunk of your glue Pokemon's health to get some decent chip on Zacian-C (0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 158-188 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO) is in fact the optimal play, especially considering how the Eternatus might predict the Zacian-C user clicking Assurance or Close Combat. This is far from ideal, but it's the sort of situation Zacian-C regularly forces. Zacian-C is so rough to handle that you'll often see people sacrificing stuff to it just to damage it a bit — look at turns 20 and 21
here, where
BaconEatinAssassin leaves his Ground immune and presumptive Defogger Yveltal in on Zacian-C
twice because JT Yao clicking Assurance on a Necrozma-Dusk-Mane switch-in puts him at a significant disadvantage. This sort of play is
insane in any healthy metagame, yet often optimal in the Zacian-infested hellscape of SS Ubers. The last word on keeping Eternatus in on Zacian-C is that a Life Orb Eternatus actually wins the 1v1 with a bit of prior chip on 0 HP/0 SpD Zacian-C and is likely to outpace bulkier Zacian-Cs — see 252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 247-291 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO versus +1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 343-405 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. The Eternatus often dies in return, but it's often a fair trade to take out your opponent's scariest offensive Pokemon in a tier full of scary offensive Pokemon.
Moving on, in your now-deleted original post, you try and fail to frame Reshiram as a Zacian-C check. You wisely back off on this here, although I think you still miss the point.
Sooo I gave Reshiram a lot of praise in my last reply but that was full of shit. +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Now let's say that Reshiram is miraculously running full HP and Defense. +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reshiram: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO. See? Not that big of a difference. While yes it's true that 252+ SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 595-704 (183 - 216.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO that's it. That's the only move that Reshiram has that threatens Zacian-C. Even Earth power has a 6% chance to OHKO. That's too close to 0 to be reliable.
It's ironic to note that Choice Scarf Reshiram is actually a phenomenal Zacian-C revenge killer, OHKOing even 252 HP / 0 SpD variants with Blue Flare. The only other Pokemon that reliably revenge kill Zacian-C are Choice Specs Calyrex-S and the Choice Scarf variants of Landorus-T, Darmanitan-G, and Kyogre. This is not a significant pool of Pokemon — surely if Zacian-C is so hard to defensively check, you'd see one of its strong revenge killers on every team. Yet in two full weeks and 17 games of Most Wanted, even despite seeing fully unviable Pokemon like
Charizard,
Garchomp, and
Corviknight, we still have yet to encounter a Reshiram out in the wild. The fact is, Reshiram isn't relevant. It doesn't matter whether or not it checks or doesn't check Zacian-C, because it doesn't even crack 3% usage
at any level of ladder play and has
only three recorded uses in any Crown Tundra tournament games,
including those for the Ubers Championship. Max Defense Reshiram calcs hold no importance to either side of this discussion.
Now we shift our attention to Dialga. First things first, like Eternatus,Reshiram, and every other dragon, due to Zacian-C's typing it has one of it's stabs negated (being dragon). That's already a big hit to a Zacian-C check. Also it's weak to fighting so CC will obliterate it.... if it isn't invested in HP/Defense.
With Full Hp (No defense): +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Dialga: 456-538 (112.8 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With Full Defense (No HP): +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Full Investment in both: +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 306-360 (75.7 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Guaranteed 2HKO at max defensive Utility. Looking rough. So that's Dialga's defensive observations. Now let's talk about how Dialga threatens Zacian-C.
Earth Power:252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 278-328 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO.
Fire Blast: 252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 338-400 (104 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
OverHeat: Obvi OHKO
Flash Cannon (if you don't carry Earth Power/Fire Blast/Overheat): 252+ SpA Life Orb Dialga Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 185-218 (56.9 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's.... actually pretty good ngl. BUT, since Zacian-C has absurd speed this is never going to happen. Also Fire Blast has horrid accuracy so banking on it killing Zacian-C is kind of risky. Also if you're running an smogon Offensive Dialga set. You have 104 HP investment and no defense investment. Which means that +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 410-484 (111.7 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO . Unless you run full Sp atk and Full HP you aren't killing Zacian-C with Dialga. Good Option though because not many people use Offensive Dialga so your opponent may be caught off guard.
The same goes for your bizarre hypothetical Dialga spreads. I can confidently tell you nobody is running 252 HP / 0 Def Mild Dialga, just as nobody is running 0 HP / 252 Def Bold or 252 HP / 252 Def Bold or Life Orb Dialga. I can understand your confusion to an extent — there hasn't been any Crown Tundra Ubers C&C work yet, meaning most all the sets in the damage calculator don't exist or don't make sense. That explains where you got the 104 HP Life Orb Dialga from, although I'm still totally baffled at the three other spreads. The only Zacian-C calc that actually matters versus Dialga is +1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 452-532 (111.8 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Even then, it's unclear to me that Dialga itself matters much to the discussion. It gets a bit over double the usage of Reshiram at every level of ladder play — a whopping ~6-7% in every metric except 1760 stats, where it tanks to 3.6%. Yet it has had no uses in Most Wanted yet, saw only 7.7% usage in Kickoff, and hasn't appeared in even 1 of 36 Championship games. Dialga is a bit more relevant than Reshiram, but whether Zacian-C beats it is also only of tangential importance because Dialga's still only uncommon at best.
That's really the heart of the problem I have with your post. There are ample reasons to ban Zacian-C, but almost everything you've given us exists on the fringe of the metagame, if it exists at all, or is otherwise ill-informed. Furthermore, I feel there's very little content here. When you take out the damage calculations, all I get from your post is "Zacian-C beats a bunch of Dragon-types that do or don't have a type weakness to it" and a footnote saying "Calyrex-Shadow good," which....yeah? I promise you nobody outside of perhaps the low Ubers ladder was trying to beat the 170 Attack Steel/Fairy Pokemon with a bunch of Dragon-types in the first place, and although Calyrex-Shadow is really strong it's not really relevant to this discussion the way you've framed it. Yes, your conclusion that Zacian-C is impossible to defensively handle on a consistent basis is correct, but it seems to me you get there the wrong way.
A better way to do this mental calculus is to consider the checks to Zacian-C people actually use and the ways they fall short. We have three Zacian-C checks: Physically Defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Rocky Helmet Pokemon + Scarf Dugtrio, and Quagsire. Pairing Zacian-C with a Gothitelle alone throws all these options out the window, because none of them can afford to run Shed Shell and be consistent versus either hazards or Zacian-C itself. Even if they do run items optimal for Zacian-C, it
still has sets that tool them all. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane falls to Assurance Zacian-C unless it has Heavy Duty Boots, and if it opts for Heavy Duty Boots over Rocky Helmet it doesn't deter Swords Dance or Crunch Zacian-C from clicking attacks well enough. Quagsire has to sit there and spam Recover until Zacian-C misses a Play Rough — if it scores a critical hit instead, you're done, not to mention that Zacian-C can use 16 Play Rough PP and 8 Close Combat PP to stall out Quagsire's 16 Recover PP in the long game. This lets Zacian-C destroy Quagsire by itself with no coverage dedicated to the task. If Quagsire ever saw high usage again, too, Zacian-C could just Solar Blade it for the clean OHKO in Sun. You can run Rocky Helmet Quagsire to deter Zacian from just sitting there and fishing, but this requires the greatest hazard control in the universe and sometimes loses even still. Meanwhile, Rocky Helmet + Dugtrio loses if the Rocky Helmet gets Knocked Off, or if the Zacian-C invests heavily in bulk, or if you can't keep both the Rocky Helmet holder and Dugtrio alive before you trap Zacian, or if the Zacian-C has Substitute or Agility. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane also loses badly to Substitute, given that the standard line of play in Necrozma-Dusk-Mane versus Zacian-C is clicking Thunder Wave turn one. One of the most compelling reasons to ban Zacian-C is that it can fuck over all three of its checks either on its own or with minimal team support.
Or we could look at this from a different angle and examine the viability of its defensive checks. I'm pretty confident you won't see any of them in a Zacian-C-free metagame. Quagsire should disappear because the only thing it checks outside of Zacian-C is Zygarde, which it already does a poor job of due to its intense vulnerability to Full Paralysis and Toxic. Dugtrio should vanish too — the only common thing it traps besides Zacian-C is the occasional support Eternatus, except that Gothitelle does this much more consistently while having far more utility versus other Pokemon. Physically Defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane at least does better than these two at first glance, but if you look at every offensive threat higher than B- rank in the
Viability Rankings, you'll notice that it switches in and beats none of them except Zacian-C. Even then "beating" that really means Paralyzing it 90% of the time and taking off 50-70% of its health with Earthquake. Unlike the other two, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane should still exist in a post-Zacian-C metagame, but it'll favor Special Defense over Physical so as to actually handle Geomancy Xerneas, Life Orb Eternatus, and Palkia, among others. The fact that none of this stuff should exist without Zacian-C roaming around tells us that teams use these things expressly because of it — Zacian-C massively restricts building, given that you have to run one of three options dedicated almost solely to handling it, not to mention how those options can often lose.
In one sense, wadeeeeeeeee, we're actually saying the same thing — ban Zacian-C because you need to run bizarre, less-than-optimal strategies expressly to check it that still often lose. I just think we disagree on all the specifics.