Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 5 - Hound Dog (Zacian-Crowned Banned)

[Deleted User 464209]

What is the point of Ubers as a tier if you are banning stuff? How would it be differentiated from OU or Anything Goes?

Exert some muscle and make OU change its name to UUbers. Otherwise, Ubers is not going to be usage-based, and any bans would just be arbitrary on top of what is already a ban list.

 

[Tomahawk]

What is the point of Ubers as a tier if you are banning stuff? How would it be differentiated from OU or Anything Goes?

That is in fact exactly how Ubers is differentiated from Anything Goes.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

That is in fact exactly how Ubers is differentiated from Anything Goes.

Right, but then what's the difference from OU? A smaller banlist? Why don't we have "TrueBers" with no banlist?

Anyway...zacian-c clicks buttons, but isn't that what you play Ubers for?

 

[Fc]

Right, but then what's the difference from OU? A smaller banlist? Why don't we have "TrueBers" with no banlist?

Anyway...zacian-c clicks buttons, but isn't that what you play Ubers for?

That's... what anything goes is, that's where the differentiation made in that response comes from.

Anything goes has replaced the position Ubers had of metagame with the least bans, and it will always stay like that. There's a reason we have ohko moves banned in every gen, evasion moves banned in every gen, species clause in every gen, sleep trap clause, mega ray banned in gen 6 and 7, arceus banned in gen 4, baton pass banned in gen 7 and 8, and dynamax banned in gen 8. I'm probably forgetting something, but we have always had bans in the form of clauses, because we've always strived for the most fun and playable meta with the least amount of bans. Ubers has now banned on the basis of something being broken before like I mentioned more in depth in my previous post, but sure you can play ubers to just click buttons with strong Pokemon, and if you feel this strongly ladder for reqs and vote no ban on Zacian-C, but the majority of players consider it too much for the tier and it is now up there with mega rayquaza as an example of what can happen when power creep catches up to us this hard.

Ubers will always have bans in some form, but ideally they are kept to a minimum, if Zacian-C goes maybe in the next games it's more manageable and can be freed again, but we'll still always have clauses and likely suspects in every gen to come if this is anything to go off of for how things are going to get stronger. I think the name ubers carries too much weight right now, where a lot of people think it's impossible to ban anything because of what ubers is, but we still have yet to figure out what ubers wants to be as the gens progress, but I think it's already been shown that bans can happen and will be inevitable at some point. OU is a meta centered around banning the incredibly strong Pokemon to ubers and forming their own metagame around the arguably more balanced Pokemon. Ubers is simply a tiered banlist, but we are still tiered, because we also want to have the most playable, enjoyable, and balanced metagame with these banned legends given to us, so I think banning the most powerful of the gen which has very few things that can even remotely compare to it makes sense, with similar mons mostly being mega ray which has been long banned and gen 1 mewtwo but that's gen 1 with its own quirks. Gen 8 has a lot of power backing it and Zacian-C is still too strong currently, so it was felt that a test was needed. Anything goes is always there as a metagame with 0 bans and whatever you want to use that's legal in the game, but Ubers is 1 step below that now and we can use that to make our own meta better.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

Fc what does "too strong" in the context of Ubers even mean though? All these pokemon are already all deemed "too strong" by OU; ditto to all the clauses that are present everywhere but AG.

It seems like there's just sentimental attachment to the power-level of old Ubers tiers and not the principle. How is banning a number of "top threats" any different from me deciding to form a coalition mini-ubers tier that bans everything I think is stronger than zamazenta? (Not that I want to).

Regardless, I agree it's all in the name of fun, so I don't mean to stir the pot too much!

 

[faint]

Fc what does "too strong" in the context of Ubers even mean though? All these pokemon are already all deemed "too strong" by OU; ditto to all the clauses that are present everywhere but AG.

It seems like there's just sentimental attachment to the power-level of old Ubers tiers and not the principle. How is banning a number of "top threats" any different from me deciding to form a coalition mini-ubers tier that bans everything I think is stronger than zamazenta? (Not that I want to).

Regardless, I agree it's all in the name of fun, so I don't mean to stir the pot too much!

All Ubers are too strong for OU on paper (see: Zamazenta-C lol). That does not mean two Ubers are equally as good as one another. Mons like Zacian-C and Calyrex-S force you to use specific mons not because they are "strong," but because without them you'll lose. Given that Ubers is no longer a ban list and is a tier, it makes sense that people would want to remove the mons that require you to build with 4 mons in mind, knowing that the other two slots are basically guaranteed to be Yvel and Necro-DM.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Finally made reqs today, I'll be voting ban. While Ubers has always had Pokemon that can cause absolute chaos if they can come in safely, many of them are held back by bad defensive typing (Calrex-Ice), low Speed (Kyogre) or low bulk (Calyrex-Shadow). Zacian-C has none of these problems - it's one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier, it has great bulk and Steel / Fairy is one of the best defensive typings out there. Those factors mean it has no shortage of Pokemon it can come in on safely like defensive Yveltal, Xerneas and Eternatus in Rain and start smashing things up. Counters? Quagsire does wall it, but as others have said it's basically useless outside this and funnily enough most players don't like playing 5 vs 6. Groudon? Yeah you'd better be running max defense, otherwise...

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 223-264 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And even if you are running max physical defense, it needs to be in pristine shape, and you'd better hope it's not running an Adamant nature

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Physically defensive Necrozma-DM? Much like Quagsire it's not much particularly outside of dealing with Zacian-C, as it lets other dangerous sweepers like Dragon Dance Zygarde, Rock Polish Groudon and, if it doesn't run Earthquake, Dragon Dance Zekrom come in for free and set up. Even then, it only reliably beats the all out attacker set - if Zacian Swords Dances on the switch, Necrozma gets 2HKOed by a +2 Close Combat, and isn't even guaranteed to OHKO a full health Zacian with Earthquake at -1 Def. Oh, and if Stealth Rock is up AoA sets with Assurance can still beat non Heavy-Duty Boots Necrozma with good roles:

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Assurance (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 219-258 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 146-172 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 243-286 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 211-250 (64.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 282-334 (86.7 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Defensive Ho-Oh might seem like an answer, but Jolly can 2HKO with Behemoth Blade into Wild Charge with some good roles (Adamant is guaranteed to 2HKO). Oh and without sun uninvested Sacred Fire doesn't OHKO, so you'd better hope for a burn.

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 120-142 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 290-342 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 240-284 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So to sum up, it has only 1 counter that sucks at everything else, 2 good checks that need to in pristine health to reliably handle it and...nothing else. Unless you have one of a very small pool of Pokemon to check it, it will claim a KO every time it comes in. This has made the meta extremely repetitive and honestly not fun to play IMO, it's even worse than in ORAS and USUM when almost every team had Primal Groudon.

As a side note, this is the team that I used to get reqs. Don't sleep on CroGre, it's a great late game bulky sweeper.

Importable

 

[Icemaster]

Zacian-Crowned has now been banned from Ubers. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussions in this thread.
You may use this thread in order to discuss thoughts on the post ban metagame.