Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 7 - Heroes [Zacian-Hero Banned]

Status
Not open for further replies.

TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
is a Pre-Contributor
Beating Zacian-Hero is possible.
All you need are
1.toxic spikes or toxic itself
2. choice specs gengar or other specially offensive poison type.
3. steel types like bisharp.
The problem is that Gengar and Bisharp are unviable in Ubers. The only really relevant Poison type (that runs Poison moves) is Eternatus, which is usually forced into specially defensive spreads for Kyogre. There are Steel-types, but with the right prediction every single one is at worst 2HKOed by the correct coverage move from Choice Band sets, even full physically defensive Necrozma-DM.
 
Bisharp and gengar both get 2ohkoed if not ohkoed by Play Rough and both are ohkoed by Close Combat or Crunch, so I’m not even sure what they offer to the table

By experience, you beat Zacian with cores such as tangrowth+ Fairy resist if it’s banded.

Sd sets are hard to counter so people just try to revenge kill

Unless you run cores like Toxapex/Tangrowth/Ho oh with a scarfer or Calyrex, chances are you always lose something to Zacian.

Dusk mane is a good check but people stated the Berry so in the end of the day it will get a kill either way
 

Lasen

it must be the answer
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Moderator
Maybe this is just my inner shrang manifesting itself, but I do not feel like Zacian deserves a ban. The counter-play is right there staring you down with an insane usage rate in Necrozma-DM and a secondary check if you're feisty enough. Moreover, there is, in fact, what the kids these days call "offensive counterplay" as Zacian often relies on an Adamant nature to get the most out of it's Choice Band set, leaving it susceptible to various fast Pokemon in the metagame such as Eternatus or Marshadow who can both revenge it with their strong STAB if it's taken chip; in Marshadow's case, it can even pick it off with Shadow Sneak. Zacian also has absolutely no longevity, taking Rocky Helmet damage at the very least twice to get a single KO and having to rely on Wild Charge to significantly damage the likes of Ho-Oh or Toxapex. During my laddering session for these reqs as well as the various tournament showings of it I've seen, it's definitely a powerhouse that demands respect in and out of the builder. Is it similar to its Crowned form in how it instantly wins match-ups? Hardly. As such, with no doubt in my mind I'll be voting NO BAN.
 
I was initially pro ban, but the more I played, the more I found Zacian's shortcomings, which are very glaring. Zacian's lack of useful resistances in Ubers is very apparent. Fairy mostly resists only Dark types (Yveltal) and Fighting types (Marshadow), so Zacian doesn't provide anything useful defensively (Zacian can't switch into any of them as Yveltal spams Knock off, means no Choice Band; Marshadow is faster with Jolly and can spectral thief +1 boost). Zacian is also vulnerable to all status and hazards and need team support to heal/defog. Unlike Zacian-C who can still tank various hits due to steel typing, Zacian's support movepool is basically suicide (Wild Charge, CC), which makes it pretty easy to pick out after a kill. Having an average defensive typing, being forced to run adamant nature, vulnerable to every hazard/status, prediction reliant and suicidal support movepool means Zacian is much easier to play around in practice than theory. As soon as Zacian steps into battle, it's put on a timer. Make no mistake, Zacian is nowhere close to as restrictive as Zacian Crowned, or even Calyrex-S which can actually run various sets.
 
Last edited:
Beating Zacian-Hero is possible.
All you need are
1.toxic spikes or toxic itself
2. choice specs gengar or other specially offensive poison type.
3. steel types like bisharp.
It learns close combat, so the last method is far from guaranteed... also, Gengar gets outsped so good luck with that.
 
Zacian Hero is like Darmanitan (regular not galarian),

With a choice band they are both nigh unwallable, but then lack speed to deal with offensive threats that could ohko them, the problem is there aren't pokemon that can do that to zacian.

That is why I vote BAN.
 
In my opinion removing Zacian-Hero will not solve problem of unhealthy meta. Moreover it will only strenghten the dominance of other overpowered mons in Ubers like Calyrex-Shadow which with its As One (Grimm Neigh) ability will become an unbeatable monster meaning Calyrex-s will become a sole winner of this matter.
Aside of that Zacian-Hero still faces a lot of dangers from steel types like swords dance + iron head bisharp or scarf magnezone. Also poison types like specs+sludge wave gengar deal with zacian-h effectively
Are you kidding me? Magnezone ain't outrunning Zacian even with scarf, which means this happens:

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 570-672 (202.8 - 239.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To quote the Guilty Gear announcer: DESTROYED! Same thing happens with Bisharp:

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 1284-1512 (473.8 - 557.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
OVERKILL
Also, Play Rough is a guaranteed OHKO, and Wild Charge is a roll to OHKO, and if Stealth Rock is up, there's a very good chance that Bisharp just drops.
Gengar is not only slower, it's so fragile that it just dies:

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 274-323 (104.9 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Two words: HOLY SHIT. Considering that this is a resisted hit, that's only fitting.

Beating Zacian-Hero is possible.
All you need are
1.toxic spikes or toxic itself
2. choice specs gengar or other specially offensive poison type.
3. steel types like bisharp.
See above. Also, by the time it does to Toxic, it'd have blown a Texas-sized hole in your team.

Banded Zacian-Hero can be easily neutralized by scarfed knock off users. Also if pro-banners didnt notice this mon dont have any viable recovery besides rest meaning that even though it recovers itself to full health for the next 2 turns it is completely grounded.
That means you have to sack something to knock its band off, and then what? You're still facing down a mon with blistering speed and +1 attack, except now it can switch moves. This image comes to mind:

Somehow, I don't think you thought your cunning plan all the way through.
 
Last edited:

Garrett

Chase dreams worth a lifetime's pursuit
is a Pre-Contributor
Banded Zacian-Hero can be easily neutralized by scarfed knock off users. Also if pro-banners didnt notice this mon dont have any viable recovery besides rest meaning that even though it recovers itself to full health for the next 2 turns it is completely grounded.
There is nothing standard that is both fast enough to knock it off first and not die in one hit from Zacian-H. No one is hard switching Banded Zacian-H into a Knock Off unless they're inebriated. Things that stay in to knock it off are slower, like Tangrowth, Toxapex, and maybe NDM. Not to mention, Zacian-H without an item is definitely weaker but by no means dead weight on a team.

Then, a lot of great breakers lack great recovery options, so this isn't a great basis for pro- or anti-ban. It's not always easy to fit a healing move on offensive mons.
 
Banded Zacian-Hero can be easily neutralized by scarfed knock off users. Also if pro-banners didnt notice this mon dont have any viable recovery besides rest meaning that even though it recovers itself to full health for the next 2 turns it is completely grounded.
It's not meant to be a wall, it's meant to create scary amounts of pressure once it switches in, that's like saying Ditto is bad because it can't put its base stats to use (they're all 48 by the way(it was bad, up until it got the Imposter ability) or Shuckle is bad because it can't hit anything with its 10 atk and sp.atk
 
Maybe this is just my inner shrang manifesting itself, but I do not feel like Zacian deserves a ban. The counter-play is right there staring you down with an insane usage rate in Necrozma-DM and a secondary check if you're feisty enough. Moreover, there is, in fact, what the kids these days call "offensive counterplay" as Zacian often relies on an Adamant nature to get the most out of it's Choice Band set, leaving it susceptible to various fast Pokemon in the metagame such as Eternatus or Marshadow who can both revenge it with their strong STAB if it's taken chip; in Marshadow's case, it can even pick it off with Shadow Sneak. Zacian also has absolutely no longevity, taking Rocky Helmet damage at the very least twice to get a single KO and having to rely on Wild Charge to significantly damage the likes of Ho-Oh or Toxapex. During my laddering session for these reqs as well as the various tournament showings of it I've seen, it's definitely a powerhouse that demands respect in and out of the builder. Is it similar to its Crowned form in how it instantly wins match-ups? Hardly. As such, with no doubt in my mind I'll be voting NO BAN.
"secondary check if you're feisty enough." its not if ur feisty, its a must. something alongside ndm is crucial cause if ur coming in on band cc/crunch, ur on the back foot right from the get go and zac will pick ur team apart. offensive counterplay is a fair point, but you made it sound like there is a lot of option when its just the two mons you mentioned in your post marsh and etern + caly. With marsh you are also sacrificing the damage adamant would've given you which is in itself a bit of a trade off but ig thats not too big of a deal seeing it still 2kos a lot of threats. With etern ur required to run close to max speed, and at that point, etern which is a huge staple in the meta, wont be able to check ogre and ur team is even more restricted in the builder. its not as simple as "just make your pokemons faster"

Zac can get chipped very fast and wild charge does drain away a fair amount of health if it comes in on hooh or toxa, but the thing is after rocks toxa is dead, and with a very minimal chip on hooh (or simple toxic on it) too and now zac can freely spam crunch/cc and kill ur ndm. in an ideal scenario it would die to rocky helmet damage after 2 crunches but now you lose two mons to one.

there are a few replays in last week of upl where people purely relied on rocky helmet ndm to check zac and it completely backfired letting zac sweep their entire team after ndm comes in once on a cc and is forced to switch out. in another game as well having a secondary check was completely disregarded and the player shouldve been punished if not for some hard misplays from the zac user. or other one where ndm did not even come in once on zac fearing cc/crunch and things were just sacked to it.

its something that can be prepped for, but the effort it requires not to lose to it is just extremely dumb.
 

Manaphy

STILL lookin for Japanese QT 3.14 GF
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Regarding Zacian, I think there’s been a fair amount of pushback against the ban idea because some people don’t really see it as broken in practice.
I'd like to start right off the bat with this: Zacian has viable counterplay. However, I don't think this means we shouldn't ban it.

In truth, Zacian is really only 100% manageable with Necrozma-Dusk Mane and a Regenerator core - the main ones that stick out to me are Tangrowth and Toxapex. With Ho-Oh, it's a lot better than just having NDM, but you are really cutting it close when any rogue Wild Charge can one shot you. Tang and Pex are a lot more reliable in this matter - being able to take pretty much anything Zacian can throw at it, even when boosted. You'd need specific circumstances like rocks up to beat Pex or tspikes up to beat Tang. In theory you could go freeballing and run just an Amoonguss to beat Zacian and call it a day, but you are really cutting it close should Zacian sets adapt to the meta and start running Psy Fangs. But okay, sure, this is certainly viable counterplay - be it extremely specific counterplay. You could say that means it isn't broken, but it certainly is pushing the boundries at the very least.

Now, we also have to establish that not all players loves running Tang or Pex - and you also have to consider the other mons that are pretty much forced onto every non-HO team. Basically, you are looking at 4 mons which have to be run on almost every team - Yveltal, Etern, Nec, and a regenerator mon. So, alright, fine, there are some small variations, such as Blissey over Etern, but this also usually comes at a significant teambuilding cost, such as forcing a Poison-type or dual defog on your team, lest you lose to Toxic Spikes. But these 4 basic slots are pretty much it - and this is severely limiting to teambuilding. If you want to be sure that you won't lose to HO, then you'll likely want a scarf or priority revenge killer. Want to not lose to balance or stall? Alright, well now we need a cleric mon, too. There are so few options to be able to build from this core of 4 mons that it hurts to think about.

This has been so frustrating to the playerbase to the point that people are now running egregiously unoptimal builds in an attempt to be original and actually try to have some fun in the tier. The number one example of this I've seen so far this UPL is Necrozma-DM as the only switch-in to Zacian. Guys, I don't know where you thought running one mon that almost always gets 2HKO'd would be in any way a reliable method of dealing with Zacian, but it's not. Also, I find points about offensive counterplay to Zacian to be grasping at straws, at the absolute best. Timid Eternatus is literally so weak, and it will likely be your best Knock absorber considering nothing in the tier can really take knocks like etern can, making it even weaker. Marshadow is also extremely weak if it goes Jolly, missing key 2HKO targets on switch-ins such as Eternatus. If Marsh does stay Adamant, then it has to use Shadow Sneak - which does 44% max to an uninvested Zacian. This is all not even considering that Jolly Zacian is totally viable to run on Babiri Berry sets. Even Calyrex-S will not OHKO Zacian unless it's specs, which is still a roll. Thus, if you want any reliable method of dealing with Zacian at all, you are forced into a.) running the same 4 mons on every team or B.) going full HO. There really is not any inbetween, which is why, as I've said before, Bulky Offense is basically an impossible archetype at the moment.

While there is viable counterplay to Zacian, we should not forget that Zacian is the number one offensive threat in the tier right now. I think a flaw in the logic of the No Ban supporters is that they look at the mon in a vacuum - Zacian can also rely on its team for support too. Sure, if you just load up icemaster’s old sample team and expect Zacian to break everything in the meta right now by itself, you are going to be out of luck. But Zacian itself pairs excellently with both entry hazards and other offensive threats. The classic double fairy core of Zaci + Xerneas will still absolutely murk the majority of teams (and it has in UPL) since NDM easily gets overloaded and additional Xerneas checks are dwindling when Regenerator Mons are forced on every team and there’s no more room for checks to other offensive mons. Babiri Berry Zacian makes an excellent cleaner and breaker, and pairs excellently with Healing Wish Blissey, as most teams can’t handle a Zacian which has broken through NDM and gotten back to full health. This is not to mention the surprise factor of the SD set which can take advantage of predicted switches for a CB set. Even just having rocks up (not the most difficult thing in the world, especially when one of the best defoggers, Yveltal, doesn’t like Zacian) will allow CB Zacian to wreck havoc and break through some of the lesser-used regenerator mons such as Amoonguss and Toxapex. By the way, quickly going back to the argument of offensive checks: Zacian is one of the fastest mons in the tier, so it can massively push it’s advantage, much more than other breaker mons. In comparison, mons like Don or Zekrom, while having massive breaking potential, need to set-up more than Zacian does to break, otherwise random things like Yveltal and Etern can come in, outspeed and get enough damage in to limit their presence.

As a last note, the idea that Zac will prevent Stall from taking over wholesale is just baffling to me. Imagine how offensive your team can be now, when you don’t automatically need a passive NDM and Tang/Ho-Oh! This is also not even considering how Zacian's power as an offense mon automatically makes you want to use it over something else. Getting rid of a fast sweeper like Zac allows a lot of the slower, but still very strong breakers to rise up. Another thing that is baffling to me on this topic is that the same people who would argue about stall taking over would, at the same time, argue that Zacian is very manageable to deal with. If Zacian isn't an extremely strong offensive force, then wouldn't it not matter if its around or not for stall? Anyway, I don’t want to speculate past this because, as fardin excellently pointed out, there’s no point in speculating in a hypothetical metagame. It’s more important to deal with the current state of the meta, because we already know it’s very limited for creativity and teambuilding.

The mon is simply not fun and is massively limiting for the tier. Due to this I think it should be banned. You could certainly try to pull the "well, this is Ubers so...." argument, but let's not pretend Ubers has to stay on the old ideology, especially when we've already banned Arceus, Mega Ray, Zacian-C, Shadow Tag, etcetera.... a mon of comparable power-level in any other tier would for sure be banned. It's important to be ideologically consistent - saying Zacian should not be banned because it's not quiiitteeee as broken as Zacian-C is not something that would be done in a "real" tiered meta like OU, nor would it be done in the wild west of Uber's past. If you are going to have those principles, at least stick by them like the ultra boomers do. Though, at this point, I just see that as "everyone else can't enjoy a fun balanced meta because I like broken things."
 
If only thing you have to offer is constantly attacking someone just because he/she have other opinion than you then maybe internet is not place for you.
I'm stating facts. Not one of the mons you stated can handle Zacian can actually do it in practice. The opinion card would hold water were it not for the fact that most, if not everything you've stated is objectively wrong. You say that Shadow Calyrex is the only mon that benefits from Zacian being banned (speaking of, I'm of the mind that it might need to go, but that's a discussion for another time). How do you know that?? The answer: You don't. You're just making an assumption, and hypotheticals don't have a place in this thread (by the way, Zacian is a good partner for Shadow Calyrex, so that point is wrong anyhow). Also, I'm gonna emphasize that this is a 6-on-6 game. Zacian can get support from its team as well. Thought that you had Zacian down for the count, but your opponent used Healing Wish Blissey to heal it back up to full? Sucks to be you! Dusk Mane Necrozma is about the only thing that can possibly be called a check, and it's a very shaky one, as if it comes in on Close Combat or Crunch, it HAS to recover lest it get KOed (with said recovery being weakened if Kyogre comes in or if it has recently came in), OR it's gonna drop next turn unless it switches out. Either of those is not a good position to be in. Also, I'm gonna reiterate the point I made in Zacian-Crowned's suspect test - the thing hits even harder than Deoxys-Attack due to boosting its already high attack when it comes in, especially since Zacian can hold an item to take its already high attack power to astronomical levels. Observe:

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 159-187 (40.3 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
One of these does less than Recover heals. The other has a rather high chance of KOing it next turn, especially if rocks are up.

TL;DR Get this broke shit outta here so the meta can actually grow.
 

FatFighter2

zacian waifu :flushed:
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
The only person who ''suck'' here is YOU. Facts are that:
1. Youve attacked me without any reason just because ive stated my opinion.
2. Youve been insulting me
How even Ubers meta will become healthy if we ban Zacian-hero?
Whats even point in giving example of Zacian Crowned if suspect test regards zacian hero? If you give example give an actual one regarding suspected mon
1. If Zacian is banned, people don’t need to run a regenerator pivot (Ho-Oh, Tangrowth, Amoongus) alongside the obligatory NDM, opening up more avenues for team building

2. Comparing Zac-H to Zac-C is a fair point, as Zac-C was previously suspected and banned, and one can argue Zac-H is just as constricting in the team builder.

3. Don’t tell other people to stop insulting you while also telling them they suck:psycry:


I would give my 2 cents regarding Zacian-H, but I think Manaphy’s post above covers everything I would want to say.
 
Alright I'm voting to ban Zacian-H. I think Zacian-H would be might be manageable if it was item locked like Zacian-Crowned but no it can hold a Choice Band to power up it's moves or Life Orb if running a Swords Dance set. To give U an idea of how important that is, Take a look at these calcs:
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 390-460 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 318-376 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 160-189 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 197-232 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 207-244 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 186-220 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


You see what's going on? Zacian-H can actually be even more menacing than Zacian-C due to it holding a band (which Zacian-C would never do because it knows to be respectful and hold it's sword).
As Tail glow said earlier, Forcing the YEN core (Yveltal,Eternatus,Necrozma-Dusk Mane) restricts teambuilding alot and is easy for Zacian-H teamates to pick up such as Zekrom, Calyrex-Shadow(once Yveltal is down),Groudon, Marsahdow, and Landorus-I. And that's just the Choice Band set. Choice Scarf loses some power but gives Zacian the extra speed to out speed pokemon such as Specs Calyrex-Shadow(even with Adamant nature), Xerneas after a Geomancy, Scarf Kyogre, Double Dance Groudon, and Zekrom after 2 Dragon Dances if running Jolly nature. And last but certainly not least, The Swords Dance set which will take down at least 2 mons if set up. Life Orb is the standard but Babiri berry can make Zacian even tougher to dance around. Normally, Necrozma Dusk mane would do massive damage to Zacian with Sunsteel Strike while it set up. Then Necrozma Dusk mane would take the +3 Life Orb Close Combat and then KO Zacian-Hero back with Sunsteel Strike. Of course Necrozma Dusk Mane would be heavily chipped but if it can come in and use Morning Sun then that's not an issue.
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 259-305 (65 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
But with Babiri Berry that changes:
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Babiri Berry Zacian: 142-168 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO.
So in Conclusion, Is Zacian-H unbeatable? Heck no. Should it be banned? YES!
 
The only person who ''suck'' here is YOU. Facts are that:
1. Youve attacked me without any reason just because ive stated my opinion.
2. Youve been insulting me
How even Ubers meta will become healthy if we ban Zacian-hero?
Whats even point in giving example of Zacian Crowned if suspect test regards zacian hero? If you give example give an actual one regarding suspected mon
Do you still believe that Bisharp, Magnezone and Gengar are good answers to Zacian despite the fact that all three of them are outsped and OHKOed (also, Toxic Spikes aren't necessarily going to be effective because three mons that don't care about them are all but forced, with two of those able to clear them away, and one of those makes them disappear just by taking the field)??? Anyways, I brought up Zacian-Crowned just to illustrate a point because Zacian-Crowned was suspected and banned for being really constricting in the teambuilder, and I believe that Zacian-Hero is no less constricting in teambuilding than it was (also, the OP included calcs that show that Zacian-Hero is even more destructive than Zacian-Crowned). In practice, it works like this:
-Zacian KOs something
-You bring in your supposed revenge killer
-The opponent switches out OR your supposed revenge killer drops like a Shedinja that came in on Stealth Rock because Zacian is rather fast (to put things into perspective, assuming Adamant Zacian, only like 3 viable mons [Zeraora, Dragapult, Regieleki] are able to outspeed it without the need for a scarf), depending on what Zacian locked itself into (assuming band; do you really think that people are stupid enough to stay in on the most obviously telegraphed Sludge Wave ever if you bring in Specs Sludge Wave Gengar while they're locked into Close Combat???)
As to how the metagame will be better if Zacian-Hero gets banned, that's easy. Regenerator mons stop being practically mandatory, and Shadow Calyrex loses its best partner (it might still need to go, but this is neither the time nor the place for that discussion).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

JT Yao

Banned deucer.
The only person who ''suck'' here is YOU. Facts are that:
1. Youve attacked me without any reason just because ive stated my opinion.
2. Youve been insulting me
How even Ubers meta will become healthy if we ban Zacian-hero?
Whats even point in giving example of Zacian Crowned if suspect test regards zacian hero? If you give example give an actual one regarding suspected mon
News flash: You're the one who's been hurling insults at ME since this started. Also, accusing people of insulting you, then turning around and insulting them does naught but make you look like a hypocrite, especially when your accusation is untrue. And again, playing the opinion card isn't gonna protect you when you're stating stuff that is objectively wrong (and fyi, I'm far from the only one here who thinks most of what you've posted in this thread is, to be blunt, bullshit). Or do you still believe that Bisharp, Magnezone and Gengar are good answers to Zacian despite the fact that all three of them are outsped and OHKOed (also, Toxic Spikes aren't necessarily going to be effective because three mons that don't care about them are all but forced, with two of those able to clear them away, and one of those makes them disappear just by taking the field)??? Anyways, I brought up Zacian-Crowned just to illustrate a point because Zacian-Crowned was suspected and banned for being really constricting in the teambuilder, and I believe that Zacian-Hero is no less constricting in teambuilding than it was (also, the OP included calcs that show that Zacian-Hero is even more destructive than Zacian-Crowned). In practice, it works like this:
-Zacian KOs something
-You bring in your supposed revenge killer
-The opponent switches out OR your supposed revenge killer drops like a Shedinja that came in on Stealth Rock because Zacian is rather fast (to put things into perspective, assuming Adamant Zacian, only like 3 viable mons [Zeraora, Dragapult, Regieleki] are able to outspeed it without the need for a scarf), depending on what Zacian locked itself into (assuming band; do you really think that people are stupid enough to stay in on the most obviously telegraphed Sludge Wave ever if you bring in Specs Sludge Wave Gengar while they're locked into Close Combat???)
As to how the metagame will be better if Zacian-Hero gets banned, that's easy. Regenerator mons stop being practically mandatory, and Shadow Calyrex loses its best partner (it might still need to go, but this is neither the time nor the place for that discussion).
These types of posts are generally unhelpful. As this is one of the two remaining suspect tests for Ubers, many users who have never played Ubers quickly read up to obtain quality information about the suspect test, before making an informed decision. Posts in favor of a ban written by Fardin and Manaphy, or posts in favor of no ban written by Edgar, Fc and myself are the style you should try to adhere to. There is a certain level of scholasticism that exists without resorting to unnecessary name calling and pointless jabs. I’d highly recommend refraining from posting unnecessary vitriol. Comment only when you’ve achieved the suspect test requirements, because the sheer amount of misinformation being spread throughout this thread really derails its overall purpose. And one last thing, going forward, try to not to copy and paste the calcs mentioned in the OP. Everyone knows them, and it’s not good support for an argument anymore.
 
Zacian is definitely not a Mega Ray and risk/reward interactions within this current metagame doesn't seem to be anything unprecedented to my untrained eye. I would like to pick the brains of the experienced SS players on some of the building quirks, though.

I'm mostly going to be interested in how balances build here. Manaphy kind of answered me partially in his post but I do wonder if the mindset when building a balance is more about finding the available strategies that branch from dusk + regen cores (others?) as opposed to simply integrating zacian counterplay into your core strategy.

quick laundry list of balance cores, please check my work:
dusk + ho oh (+ groudon)
dusk + tangrowth (+ etern)
amoongus
toxapex + dusk/tangrowth

Stuff that sticks out to me here is that besides Ho-Oh builds, you are kinda stuck using an exploitable (shit)mon and don't have too much room to focus on your balance's offensive synergies. From what I believe I've understood, you are taking the above and filling in the other 4 blanks with usually something along the lines of Eternatus/Other (Kyogre check), Yveltal/Dark-type (Caly check), revenge killer (can compress with Yveltal on Ho-Oh builds), and then your filler for the last.

Okay, cute, sure. What qualifies as a shitmon is dependent on the metagame and how much counterplay you need for a threat is very contextual and stylistic. I imagine my balance outline isn't too far off (I hope) but there will be plenty of *s depending on who you ask. Assuming this as a given;

What is the typical line of play vs double fairy offenses? I imagine just scouting the Zacian set doesn't work quite as well when the Zacian's goal is to just force chip on the Dusk as opposed to actually killing something. Is this where those Babiri Zacians are coming from?

How are you handling SD fire move Groudon? It doesn't seem like you are starting with the sort of structure that can keep it honest with "it's offense, lol" so I'm assuming this is where the Zyg/Lunala/Tino filler are seeing their justification. These are more fatmons (mostly), though, so where are you putting together your offensive gameplan on these balances?

Mr.DD Zygarde also seems pretty happy to be fighting these sort of teams if they are not the Tangrowth variants. Are there ways to compress the SD Gdon check with the Zygarde one or do you just have to accept that one of these mus your balance will have to rely on finesse to overcome?

I imagine there's a lot of different takes on those sorts of things. I sure hope UPL doesn't prevent y'all from indulging me with your SS building tricks. Obviously, I'd appreciate seeing a full 6 or some pokepastes but I understand if that's just not very possible right now.
 
Last edited:

Aberforth

is a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Ubers Leader
I still wish we had done it the other way around. I know its highly likely that we'll suspect Caly afterwards, but ignoring the majority of the playerbase feels like a bit of a whack decision to me. I also want to see Zacian in a meta where Caly-S doesnt have the pervasive effect on teambuilding that it does, and in the event that we ban Zac now and later ban Caly, I'd like to see us test Zac back down to see if that would change things.

In saying that, Mana's post completely changed my vote. I was going to vote No Ban because I genuinely do think that in a meta without Calyrex, Zacian could be a non-broken element that I would like to judge before voting to get rid of it. However that's very much making perfect the enemy of good. Progress for the tier is more important than the order of which broken gets tested I guess.

We do have a higher ceiling than other tiers, pretending we dont would be pointless, but Zacian probably does go past that ceiling a little bit. Something doesnt need to be MRay level broken to be banned, and the metagame health is probably the most important factor in these suspects. Zac going frees up 2 slots on any non-ho team for creativity while not really ‘releasing’ anything like Zac-c did for Zac-h that will be nearly as restrictive to build around.

However after this and Calyrex I genuinely dont think that anything approaches the same ceiling, and in the event that both get banned I trust that we can look at releasing the dog from its captivity before trying to ban the next most broken thing.

Ubers purity is a litmus test that we really dont need nowadays. This is a hobby we play for fun, nothing more or less, so lets not pretend we need to keep to some noble philosophy of 2009 Ubers to retain the identity of the tier we love.

Hopefully these mad ramblings of a dude procrastinating work on his phone make sense to people. Tldr: ban the dog cause we can have more fun once it goes, but lets bring it back once Caly goes to see if its really the problem.
 
I still wish we had done it the other way around. I know its highly likely that we'll suspect Caly afterwards, but ignoring the majority of the playerbase feels like a bit of a whack decision to me. I also want to see Zacian in a meta where Caly-S doesnt have the pervasive effect on teambuilding that it does, and in the event that we ban Zac now and later ban Caly, I'd like to see us test Zac back down to see if that would change things.

In saying that, Mana's post completely changed my vote. I was going to vote No Ban because I genuinely do think that in a meta without Calyrex, Zacian could be a non-broken element that I would like to judge before voting to get rid of it. However that's very much making perfect the enemy of good. Progress for the tier is more important than the order of which broken gets tested I guess.

We do have a higher ceiling than other tiers, pretending we dont would be pointless, but Zacian probably does go past that ceiling a little bit. Something doesnt need to be MRay level broken to be banned, and the metagame health is probably the most important factor in these suspects. Zac going frees up 2 slots on any non-ho team for creativity while not really ‘releasing’ anything like Zac-c did for Zac-h that will be nearly as restrictive to build around.

However after this and Calyrex I genuinely dont think that anything approaches the same ceiling, and in the event that both get banned I trust that we can look at releasing the dog from its captivity before trying to ban the next most broken thing.

Ubers purity is a litmus test that we really dont need nowadays. This is a hobby we play for fun, nothing more or less, so lets not pretend we need to keep to some noble philosophy of 2009 Ubers to retain the identity of the tier we love.

Hopefully these mad ramblings of a dude procrastinating work on his phone make sense to people. Tldr: ban the dog cause we can have more fun once it goes, but lets bring it back once Caly goes to see if its really the problem.
on this topic assuming we get arceus and the remakes arent just lets go all over again (i'll punch you masuda) I do think once the meta settles we could try testing both back in, ideally not immediately with the metagame change since between Arceus-poison for zacian-hero and arceus dark/normal for Caly-GG, it might make it so they don't make you want to punch a hole in your monitor as much. I will say though that Zacian-crowned should never be freed under any circumstance.

Also I will say i also agree with mana's post and honestly just cemented me on the ban decision. Zacian-Hero definitely crosses the line and so does Caly-GG, nobody else even comes remotely close to being as dumb as they are.
 
Regarding Zacian, I think there’s been a fair amount of pushback against the ban idea because some people don’t really see it as broken in practice.
I'd like to start right off the bat with this: Zacian has viable counterplay. However, I don't think this means we shouldn't ban it.

In truth, Zacian is really only 100% manageable with Necrozma-Dusk Mane and a Regenerator core - the main ones that stick out to me are Tangrowth and Toxapex. With Ho-Oh, it's a lot better than just having NDM, but you are really cutting it close when any rogue Wild Charge can one shot you. Tang and Pex are a lot more reliable in this matter - being able to take pretty much anything Zacian can throw at it, even when boosted. You'd need specific circumstances like rocks up to beat Pex or tspikes up to beat Tang. In theory you could go freeballing and run just an Amoonguss to beat Zacian and call it a day, but you are really cutting it close should Zacian sets adapt to the meta and start running Psy Fangs. But okay, sure, this is certainly viable counterplay - be it extremely specific counterplay. You could say that means it isn't broken, but it certainly is pushing the boundries at the very least.

Now, we also have to establish that not all players loves running Tang or Pex - and you also have to consider the other mons that are pretty much forced onto every non-HO team. Basically, you are looking at 4 mons which have to be run on almost every team - Yveltal, Etern, Nec, and a regenerator mon. So, alright, fine, there are some small variations, such as Blissey over Etern, but this also usually comes at a significant teambuilding cost, such as forcing a Poison-type or dual defog on your team, lest you lose to Toxic Spikes. But these 4 basic slots are pretty much it - and this is severely limiting to teambuilding. If you want to be sure that you won't lose to HO, then you'll likely want a scarf or priority revenge killer. Want to not lose to balance or stall? Alright, well now we need a cleric mon, too. There are so few options to be able to build from this core of 4 mons that it hurts to think about.
I wanted to address this a bit, specifically the "we have to run 4 mons on every team".

Zacian is not the thing making you run all 4 mons. Sure, it could be argued Zacian plays a major part in forcing you to run NDM and (to an extent) Tang, but it's not the one forcing you to run Yvetal or Etern; Kyogre and Shadow rider are. Moreover, Zacian isn't the mon encouraging NDM use; Xerneas arguably pushishes non-HO teams even more for dropping NDM as it straight up sweeps if you don't (And I know defensive Ho-oh exists, but Xerneas has access to ingrain to beat it if it really wants to)

So we could free up teambuilding by banning Kyogre, Shadow Rider, Xerneas, and Zacian, and arguably Zygrade-Complete as well (without fairy mons this is a lot more difficult to check); the metagame wouldn't be pressured as much by these offensive threats. However, at this point, are we really playing Ubers? If this is what voters want then it's fine, but it's important to remember what we lose when we ban these threats.

This has been so frustrating to the playerbase to the point that people are now running egregiously unoptimal builds in an attempt to be original and actually try to have some fun in the tier. The number one example of this I've seen so far this UPL is Necrozma-DM as the only switch-in to Zacian. Guys, I don't know where you thought running one mon that almost always gets 2HKO'd would be in any way a reliable method of dealing with Zacian, but it's not. Also, I find points about offensive counterplay to Zacian to be grasping at straws, at the absolute best. Timid Eternatus is literally so weak, and it will likely be your best Knock absorber considering nothing in the tier can really take knocks like etern can, making it even weaker. Marshadow is also extremely weak if it goes Jolly, missing key 2HKO targets on switch-ins such as Eternatus. If Marsh does stay Adamant, then it has to use Shadow Sneak - which does 44% max to an uninvested Zacian. This is all not even considering that Jolly Zacian is totally viable to run on Babiri Berry sets. Even Calyrex-S will not OHKO Zacian unless it's specs, which is still a roll. Thus, if you want any reliable method of dealing with Zacian at all, you are forced into a.) running the same 4 mons on every team or B.) going full HO. There really is not any inbetween, which is why, as I've said before, Bulky Offense is basically an impossible archetype at the moment.

While there is viable counterplay to Zacian, we should not forget that Zacian is the number one offensive threat in the tier right now. I think a flaw in the logic of the No Ban supporters is that they look at the mon in a vacuum - Zacian can also rely on its team for support too. Sure, if you just load up icemaster’s old sample team and expect Zacian to break everything in the meta right now by itself, you are going to be out of luck. But Zacian itself pairs excellently with both entry hazards and other offensive threats. The classic double fairy core of Zaci + Xerneas will still absolutely murk the majority of teams (and it has in UPL) since NDM easily gets overloaded and additional Xerneas checks are dwindling when Regenerator Mons are forced on every team and there’s no more room for checks to other offensive mons. Babiri Berry Zacian makes an excellent cleaner and breaker, and pairs excellently with Healing Wish Blissey, as most teams can’t handle a Zacian which has broken through NDM and gotten back to full health. This is not to mention the surprise factor of the SD set which can take advantage of predicted switches for a CB set. Even just having rocks up (not the most difficult thing in the world, especially when one of the best defoggers, Yveltal, doesn’t like Zacian) will allow CB Zacian to wreck havoc and break through some of the lesser-used regenerator mons such as Amoonguss and Toxapex. By the way, quickly going back to the argument of offensive checks: Zacian is one of the fastest mons in the tier, so it can massively push it’s advantage, much more than other breaker mons. In comparison, mons like Don or Zekrom, while having massive breaking potential, need to set-up more than Zacian does to break, otherwise random things like Yveltal and Etern can come in, outspeed and get enough damage in to limit their presence.

As a last note, the idea that Zac will prevent Stall from taking over wholesale is just baffling to me. Imagine how offensive your team can be now, when you don’t automatically need a passive NDM and Tang/Ho-Oh! This is also not even considering how Zacian's power as an offense mon automatically makes you want to use it over something else. Getting rid of a fast sweeper like Zac allows a lot of the slower, but still very strong breakers to rise up. Another thing that is baffling to me on this topic is that the same people who would argue about stall taking over would, at the same time, argue that Zacian is very manageable to deal with. If Zacian isn't an extremely strong offensive force, then wouldn't it not matter if its around or not for stall? Anyway, I don’t want to speculate past this because, as fardin excellently pointed out, there’s no point in speculating in a hypothetical metagame. It’s more important to deal with the current state of the meta, because we already know it’s very limited for creativity and teambuilding.
"Fifteen hundred years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was flat. And fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow." -- Men in Black

The quote claims that the meta is stale and that people are not innovating (or just running bad teams) because of current metagame restrictions. I find such statements hard to believe; people are still innovating in the ubers metagame. A new set for Etern was recently developed (https://pokepast.es/679af30b1c50098e), and FC recently made a very creative team that got featured as team of the week (https://pokepast.es/01234d2a0d6bbadd). I find it hard to believe that people will not continue to innovate, and make successful teams, in the current metagame.

The mon is simply not fun and is massively limiting for the tier. Due to this I think it should be banned. You could certainly try to pull the "well, this is Ubers so...." argument, but let's not pretend Ubers has to stay on the old ideology, especially when we've already banned Arceus, Mega Ray, Zacian-C, Shadow Tag, etcetera.... a mon of comparable power-level in any other tier would for sure be banned. It's important to be ideologically consistent - saying Zacian should not be banned because it's not quiiitteeee as broken as Zacian-C is not something that would be done in a "real" tiered meta like OU, nor would it be done in the wild west of Uber's past. If you are going to have those principles, at least stick by them like the ultra boomers do. Though, at this point, I just see that as "everyone else can't enjoy a fun balanced meta because I like broken things."
This seems oddly dismissive of a reason why a lot of people play Ubers; it's far more complicated and important than "I like broken things". I'll paste what Ubers Council member Minority said since he/she said it far more eloquently than me, at https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...an-crowned-banned.3675589/page-2#post-8711639:

"
When I started to get into competitive play, the reason I played Ubers is because its identity as a tier represents the pinacle of competitive singles Pokemon: a format that clauses out uncompetitive elements while minimizing aberration of the game we came here to play. Ubers began as merely a banlist for cover legends whose abilities were so potent that they invalidated the vast majority of Pokemon that were meant to be played with, but over time the tier gained enough of its own elements that it emerged as the new status quo. I'm reminded of a post dice made several years ago about how Ubers has long displaced the original spirit of OU, and now even AG has taken up the original mantle of Ubers. I'm also reminded of something jack m posted a very long time ago that remains as true as ever, which is that a state of "Ubers UU" will inevitably transition into a state identical to OU. It's unfortunate that such a novel concept is so frequently overlooked, but the short version is that if you tier for balance, you're following the same tiering policy as OU, and therefore the end state can only be identical to OU. Ubers' identity, by definition, is broken Pokemon. Ubers can only stay Ubers as long as it tiers against game elements that alter the competitive edge of play, not game elements that are simply broken or too good.

That is not to say that a ban of Zacian-C in of itself is a full realization of such a change in policy, nor has it even been concluded that the Zacian-C ban sentiment is motivated by brokeness rather than uncompetitiveness (although unfortunately it likely is for many of those who will be voting). But one very important question to consider is: at what point in banning Pokemon does Ubers actually cease to be Ubers. This cannot be overstated: there is collateral associated with banning Zacian-C. It could be considered perverse to ban a cover legend for being broken in a tier that was born from broken cover legends. It would also be disheartening if Ubers gave up its current position as the most inclusive competitive tier merely to become an aberration of OU. This consideration has made me recontextualize why I joined Ubers, and if I would do so again if the big new exciting Pokemon like Zacian, Calyrex, or even Yveltal weren't legal.
"
 
Alright I'm voting to ban Zacian-H. I think Zacian-H would be might be manageable if it was item locked like Zacian-Crowned but no it can hold a Choice Band to power up it's moves or Life Orb if running a Swords Dance set. To give U an idea of how important that is, Take a look at these calcs:
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 390-460 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 318-376 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 160-189 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 197-232 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 207-244 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 186-220 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


You see what's going on? Zacian-H can actually be even more menacing than Zacian-C due to it holding a band (which Zacian-C would never do because it knows to be respectful and hold it's sword).
As Tail glow said earlier, Forcing the YEN core (Yveltal,Eternatus,Necrozma-Dusk Mane) restricts teambuilding alot and is easy for Zacian-H teamates to pick up such as Zekrom, Calyrex-Shadow(once Yveltal is down),Groudon, Marsahdow, and Landorus-I. And that's just the Choice Band set. Choice Scarf loses some power but gives Zacian the extra speed to out speed pokemon such as Specs Calyrex-Shadow(even with Adamant nature), Xerneas after a Geomancy, Scarf Kyogre, Double Dance Groudon, and Zekrom after 2 Dragon Dances if running Jolly nature. And last but certainly not least, The Swords Dance set which will take down at least 2 mons if set up. Life Orb is the standard but Babiri berry can make Zacian even tougher to dance around. Normally, Necrozma Dusk mane would do massive damage to Zacian with Sunsteel Strike while it set up. Then Necrozma Dusk mane would take the +3 Life Orb Close Combat and then KO Zacian-Hero back with Sunsteel Strike. Of course Necrozma Dusk Mane would be heavily chipped but if it can come in and use Morning Sun then that's not an issue.
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 259-305 (65 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
But with Babiri Berry that changes:
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Babiri Berry Zacian: 142-168 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO.
So in Conclusion, Is Zacian-H unbeatable? Heck no. Should it be banned? YES!
We have all seen these calcs, power isn't everything (Dracovish and Galarian Darmanitan do more damage than Zacian-H, btw). Zero defensive utility and being choice locked makes Zacian-H much more manageable than in practice than theory, I hope you have taken all those into account as well.
 
We have all seen these calcs, power isn't everything (Dracovish and Galarian Darmanitan do more damage than Zacian-H, btw). Zero defensive utility and being choice locked makes Zacian-H much more manageable than in practice than theory, I hope you have taken all those into account as well.
I know power isn't everthing but an important point i forgot to mention was that you never know the set until it either does more damage than it should normally on a pokemon like Necrozma Dusk Mane(Choice Band), outspeeds a pokemon it wouldn't normally such as Specs Calyrex-Shadow(Choice Scarf), sets up and then does alot of damage to a wall (Swords Dance Life Orb), or easily tanking Necrozma Dusk Mane allowing it to get 2 Swords Dances(Swords Dance Babiri Berry).
 

SparksBlade

fade to black
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Community Leader
Deleted a bunch of unnecessarily rude posts as well as unrelated posts, and might've edited rude stuff out of a couple posts too. As is custom, I'm not here to share my thoughts on the suspect, but to tell you to keep your own thoughts focused on this current suspect.

- "are you stupid?? did you even read what you wrote or have you just never actually played"
- "why suspect zacian when calyrex go brrr??"
- "zacian won't be broken after calyrex gets banned"
Not. Good.

- giving proper response to even subjectively bad posts, backed with facts and logic (which happen to not care about emotions)
- "I believe Zacian to not be broken in the current meta for [reasons], but might be worth looking in the future"
Good.

Understandably people are on the fence about this suspect, and some are even upset that Zacian is getting tested first, but the purpose of this test is to test Zacian in the current meta and nothing else. If you believe Zacian to not be worth banning and instead want a Calyrex-Shadow ban, then just focus on the first part for now. Wishful thinking about "after calyrex banned..." contributes nothing to the discussion at hand and to the suspect.

Thank you for taking part in the suspect, and have a nice weekend!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top