Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 7 - Heroes [Zacian-Hero Banned]

[Tony]

​

The Ubers Council has decided to suspect Zacian-Hero!

Reasoning

Following Zacian-Crowned's ban in January, Zacian-Hero has seemlessly stepped into the vacancy left by its big brother and it hasn't looked back since. Like Zacian-Crowned, Zacian-Hero has Intrepid Sword as its ability, which means it too comes out of its Poke Ball with +1 Attack ready to go. While Zacian-Hero isn't as well rounded of a Pokemon as its sword wielding counterpart, it is every bit as powerful and more. It may not appear that way at first, as Zacian-Hero only has a base 130 Attack stat, as opposed to Zacian-Crowned's ridiculous base 170, but unlike Zacian-Crowned, Zacian-Hero can actually hold an item. To give you an idea of the significance of that, here are a few damage calcs to help paint a better picture:

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 197-232 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 160-189 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 390-460 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 318-376 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 207-244 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 186-220 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Essentially nothing available to us is safe from Zacian-Hero's onslaught if it uses a boosting item like Choice Band. Because of this, Zacian-Hero contantly forces 50/50s and can straight up end the game if you get it wrong even once. On top of that, Zacian-Hero is an incredibly potent user of Swords Dance. Without having to hold a Choice Band, it can handily bypass counters like Necrozma-Dusk-Mane through a Babiri Berry, for example, as well as taking advantage of Pokemon like Ho-Oh or Eternatus trying to pivot in on a resisted move from the Choice Band set. To make matters worse, Zacian-Hero has an astounding base 138 Speed stat, making it difficult to check it offensively as well. This incredible offensive pressure has lead to Zacian-Hero putting a huge strain on both team building and playing in SS Ubers. Since not even the best physically defensive Pokemon are enough to withstand Zacian-Hero, we now often see teams that stack a combination of shaky answers like Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Ho-Oh and Tangrowth together on a single team.

It isn't all sunshine and rainbows for Zacian-Hero, though. Where Zacian-Crowned was part Steel-type and content absorbing Knock Off, Zacian-Hero is a pure Fairy-type highly reliant on its item, regardless of its set. It can't switch into any of the top tier SS Ubers Pokemon reliably and is very prone to entry hazards, too. On top of that, Zacian-Hero has to battle through Rocky Helmet, if not multiple helmets, to make progress, resulting in it being worn down rapidly in many of its games. Even so, Zacian-Hero's stronghold on the metagame has motivated the Ubers Council to suspect test it. We're looking forward to your posts on the matter, as well as your participation in the voting process. Please read through all the information and rules outlined below before getting started.

Suspect Test Information

• The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice. For reference, there's a minimum games required table posted below.
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be UBZH. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account UBZH Tony.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitation when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular Ubers ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• We will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a moderator. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until June 13th, 10 PM GMT, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

Minimum Games Required Table

GXE	Minimum Games Required
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, more so than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

Suspect Test Rules

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Zacian-Hero vs other potential suspects like Calyrex-Shadow;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the Ubers Council and the Ubers Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the Ubers Council, an Ubers Tier Leader (Icemaster or myself), or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

The test will run until Sunday June 13th, 10 PM GMT -4. In order to ban Zacian-Hero, a 66.6% supermajority will be required. If you meet the requirements then post a screenshot in the voting requirements thread - but please take note of the criteria outlined there when you do in order to be eligible!

Current Ubers Council

Fc
Icemaster
Manaphy
Minority
Skysolo
steelskitty
Terracotta
TonyFlygon
TrueNora

 

[Garrett]

JT Yao rage comp when

The simplest reasoning for Zacian-H's ban is not knowing what actually switches in until it's too late. Banded Zacian-H can be "handled" via Regenerator pivots + NDM bar crazy luck, yet SD Zacian-H with Babiri Berry forces all of said pivots to switch into NDM, which no longer beats Zacian thanks to the item. I don't enjoy the 50/50 of guessing what Zacian's set is (the only certainty is that it's probably SD on Hyper Offense), because, as facilitated by anyone that knows when and how to use it, initially guessing wrong means the immediate loss of at least one mon.

NDM, like Quagsire at one point, is relegated to healing when Zac-H attacks with the proper move.

Tangrowth cannot take 2 Banded Play Roughs:

• +1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 223-264 (55.1 - 65.3%)
• (If it switches out, we only need an average roll of 60.25% after factoring in Rocks/1 Spike and one Regenerator switch)

The classical Ho-oh spread for Zacian-C is a joke. You just risk it dying to Wild Charge if you guess wrong. I'm fine with brokens which have a demonstrable path to being checked in the builder, but "guessmons" like this one belong in AG.

Bring on banded Yveltal squads.

 

[ironwater]

This suspect is not a surprise, Zacian-H has proven to be maybe even harder to deal with than Zacian-Crowned. The banded set is almost impossible to wall and you need to rely on good predictions and to have several answers to it as Necrozma Dusk Mane is not enough anymore. Even Pokemon like Toxapex and Tangrowth need to be at full health to check it and can thus be overwhelmed easily.

The main issue with Zacian-H in my opinion is that not only does it reduce the team options because you need to play some of its few checks but unlike Pokemon like Calyrex Shadow you cannot even use one Pokemon to deal with it and you have to rely on a core of checks that can still be overwhelmed (won't go over the calcs as most of them already are in the announcement post but you basically need specific regecores with Rocky Helmet to be somehow safe agaisnt him). I remember seeing a tournament game where Zacian-H did incredible holes against a team with Toxapex, Ho-Oh, Quagsire, and Shedinja. I think this Pokemon is completely unhealthy for the tier and thus deserved to be banned.

Even without its sword this Pokemon will cut your team to pieces.

 

[GeniusFromHoenn]

I'm voting Ban on Zacian-hero. It's 1 problem is its ability to be different sets. Physically defensive necrozma-dm gets 2hkoed by adamant banded close combat.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 197-232 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
In order to check Zacian you need to keep two/three mons to stop that OP dog.
Tang + Necrozma dm
necrozma-DM + Ho-oh
Or all 3 ndm, tang and ho-oh together. It is clear that Zacian makes the uber metagame unhealthy. Personally I love using Zacian-hero for its versatility and late game winning potential, but I know that it's unhealthy for the meta and should be gone from ubers.

 

[FireBlastingNinetales]

Zacian-Hero doesn't seem dominating in Ubers at all. Due to its need to use a choice item, it can be easily played around since it is relatively weak without its Band.

In NatDex AG, for instance, Dusk Mane can check Zacian-Crowned provided it has no Swords Dance up. Though Close Combat is indeed more powerful if banded Zacian-H is used, it can be easily played around with resists like Shadow Calyrex. If it switches in, the Zacian player will have to drain momentum by switching out and potentially facilitate the opponent's Calyrex sweep.

Another issue is Zacian-H's speed. Unlike Zacian-C, Zacian-H has a maximum speed of 375 if using an Adamant nature. This makes Jolly Marshadow able to outspeed and use Spectral Thief on it especially if it has a Swords Dance up. Other than Marshadow though, Ditto can also be used to revenge kill Zacian-H like it can Zacian-C.

Therefore, I believe that Zacian-H doesn't seem too banworthy as of now.

 

[Meminger21]

I think Zacian-H should be banned for lots of reasons.

First, instead of Calyrex-S that basically only needs a dark type in the team as a counter (I'm not saying he shouldn't be suspected tho), Zacian needs a core of at least 2 mons to try to counter him and you still need to predict the moves and sets. Not only that, pokemons that overall are pretty terrible in the Ubers metagame like Tangrowth, Amoonguss and Toxapex are used only because of one pokemon. Tangrowth for example can't be considered a good check of Groudon because of its horrible Spdef nor a check of NDM because he has Morning Sun and the offensive set can setup in tang, if the opponent doesn't have Zekrom or Zacian tang will be pretty useless in the match.

Second, the building of the teams are oftenly too focused in trying to not be destroyed by Zacian that it ends up having the same cores of NDM, Ho-oh and/or tang. So whenever you make a team you just put defensive NDM and another mon to counter Zacian and imo it damages the building process (I understand that this tier is Ubers and some mons are essential in basically every team and broken mons like Xerneas, Arceus-Normal, Desoxys-A and many others have already existed)

Third, some pokemons like NDM just can't be offensive which could be its better set, or Ho-oh can't run LO or CB in the majority of the teams, thus making pokemons that could have an amazing potential as sweepers not as viable because no other mon can check Zacian.

I really liked Zacian in this gen and it's amazing to just use SD against a stall and kill 2 or 3 mons, but i think the metagame and the building are too unhealthy and the dog should go away.

 

[Eledyr]

I'm voting ban on this one. How can a pokemon without any check and bulky enough to survive an Astral Barrage can be allowed in this tier.

 

[TailGlowVM]

I believe Zacian-H should be banned, but my main reason might be slightly different to other people. The forced Necrozma-DM/Yveltal/Eternatus core on most teams is extremely restricting to teambuilding, leaves teams wide open to dangerous wallbreakers like Groudon, Marshadow, Zekrom, and Landorus-I, and still isn't completely reliable against the Pokemon you put them on your team for. While near-mandatory Pokemon isn't new to a centralizing metagame like Ubers, you didn't see Primal Groudon on every SM Ubers team purely because it checks Xerneas and Primal Kyogre. Obviously banning only one of the three main threats will still leave two mandatory Pokemon on each team, but maybe it will be more bearable (and there will definitely be a lot more flexibility in teambuilding.) I did support banning Calyrex-S on the last survey, but getting rid of either of them should hopefully solve my main problem.

 

[Trade]

Zacian-Hero doesn't seem dominating in Ubers at all. Due to its need to use a choice item, it can be easily played around since it is relatively weak without its Band.

In NatDex AG, for instance, Dusk Mane can check Zacian-Crowned provided it has no Swords Dance up. Though Close Combat is indeed more powerful if banded Zacian-H is used, it can be easily played around with resists like Shadow Calyrex. If it switches in, the Zacian player will have to drain momentum by switching out and potentially facilitate the opponent's Calyrex sweep.

Another issue is Zacian-H's speed. Unlike Zacian-C, Zacian-H has a maximum speed of 375 if using an Adamant nature. This makes Jolly Marshadow able to outspeed and use Spectral Thief on it especially if it has a Swords Dance up. Other than Marshadow though, Ditto can also be used to revenge kill Zacian-H like it can Zacian-C.

Therefore, I believe that Zacian-H doesn't seem too banworthy as of now.

Forgive me if I come off as mean, but these are fairly misinformed arguments. Firstly, let's keep this in the realm of Ubers because a Calyrex-Shadow sweep in NatDex AG is a whole lot more threatening as it can set up and just pass to a teammate, which puts more reward for getting Calyrex-Shadow into a CC in NatDex AG as opposed to Ubers. "Draining momentum" is a problem with all choice Pokémon. The question is whether or not said Choiced Pokémon's benefits outweigh the possible (and honestly pretty rare) momentum loss in the current Ubers meta; in the case of Zacian-Hero, it clearly is. Even assuming you got 2 or 3 bad reads on switch-ins, one read on a CC to Dusk followed by switching out and coming back in to just Play Rough on everything and getting the following 2HKO on the 50% Dusk is devastating. In fact, I need to bring a combination of Ho-Oh/Tangrowth/Dusk Mane Necrozma every game just to play an Ubers match (one of which gets OHKOd by a coverage move, mind you).

Another point about your argument shows some out of touchness with the current metagame. Adamant/Jolly Marshadow with Poltergeist as opposed to Jolly with Spectral Thief is a million times more common. For the Ditto comment, Ditto's whole point is to revenge other Pokémon. In a vacuum, I can say that Ditto could also revenge kill Zacian-Crowned, and yet this is not even close to an argument for keeping it in the meta. Merely foregoing the actual damage a Pokémon does to the metagame and listing out possible blanket checks (when the point of this is not just sweeping teams, but also breaking cores) misses the point of the suspect.

For my own thoughts, let's not forget that we're not suspecting Zacian as a single Pokémon in a vacuum. Zacian opens up way too many paths for a variety of partners (whether or not it's on the team as prepping for it is just the current meta). TailGlowVM says it best in their post above, but what is essentially happening is too much role compression for current defensive Pokémon. Xerneas, Marshadow, Zekrom all either overwhelm or take advantage of the holes that Zacian leaves behind both in play and during the teambuilding period, and those mons are just a few examples. Other Pokémon in the meta also do this and can have similar effects, but the combined limited ability for Zacian's checks to KO after a switch-in, to not get 2HKOd/OHKOd by a coverage move and to recover reliably after a bad play (Dusk-Mane having to choose to switch out after getting hit by a CC or predicting the Zacian player to retreat themselves, knowing this) is something the other current threats lack. Just to give an example, a decent Yveltal set can cleanly avoid the 2HKO from Calyrex-Shadow, another centralising Pokémon, which allows it to just Roost off the damage. This is why people can run with just an Yveltal for Caly, while Zacian needs 2 different checks on a team to make up for a bad play.

Then there's also the fact that Band is not it's only set as Babiri berry, Substitute, etc have all been popping off (all of them as viable as the last). All of these constitutes a good enough reason to BAN Zacian.

 

[People_Who_Annoy_You]

In an effort to not be verbose:
Zacian-H is very fast, the second fastest [viable] uber by speed stat
Zacian-H essentially has a 220 base attack due to its ability, with choice band and an adamant nature that attack stat goes to ~900
Banded Zacian's attack stat and movepool make it capable of 1hko'ing or 2hko'ing every mon in ubers
The only way to deal with banded Zacian reliably is to dedicate 2+ team slots as checks (usually defensive ndm and at least one regenerator pivot)

Meanwhile SD Zacian is a whole 'nother can of worms. These sets are not locked by choice band and can sweep your team if you are not wary.

Is it possible to beat Zacian? Absolutely, otherwise this suspect test would have came much sooner. As it is though, Zacian stifles team building immensely and is one of the root causes of Gen 8 Ubers being so stale. Its removal would shake things up (in a good way) and break the gen out of the rut it has been in for the past four months

 

[shadowpea]

Ban for sure (not like I'll be getting reqs or trying or anything). Zacian-Hero might be a bit easier to deal with ZacC in battle, but its even harder to account for in the builder. Band is nigh-impossible to switch into and SD Babiri means that you get toasted if you only have NDM as an answer. This means you have to pack multiple answers for this thing, which is obviously a huge strain on teambuilding. You basically have to pack NDM+Tang+Ho-Oh or sonething like that just to deal with this, and you still need Bacon Birb (or Ttar or whatever) to take on Horse as well as Etern or something to not instantly die to Kyogre. Ok, its not 100% like this, but teambuilding in Ubers is so painful right now and Zacian-H is the main culprit, commanding multiple checks on every balanced/BO team.

Also, stupid power, moveset flexibility, one hit = gg, etc., but the teambuilding strain is my main complaint for this guy and I want it to go ASAP.

 

[FireBlastingNinetales]

Forgive me if I come off as mean, but these are fairly misinformed arguments. Firstly, let's keep this in the realm of Ubers because a Calyrex-Shadow sweep in NatDex AG is a whole lot more threatening as it can set up and just pass to a teammate, which puts more reward for getting Calyrex-Shadow into a CC in NatDex AG as opposed to Ubers. "Draining momentum" is a problem with all choice Pokémon. The question is whether or not said Choiced Pokémon's benefits outweigh the possible (and honestly pretty rare) momentum loss in the current Ubers meta; in the case of Zacian-Hero, it clearly is. Even assuming you got 2 or 3 bad reads on switch-ins, one read on a CC to Dusk followed by switching out and coming back in to just Play Rough on everything and getting the following 2HKO on the 50% Dusk is devastating. In fact, I need to bring a combination of Ho-Oh/Tangrowth/Dusk Mane Necrozma every game just to play an Ubers match (one of which gets OHKOd by a coverage move, mind you).

Another point about your argument shows some out of touchness with the current metagame. Adamant/Jolly Marshadow with Poltergeist as opposed to Jolly with Spectral Thief is a million times more common. For the Ditto comment, Ditto's whole point is to revenge other Pokémon. In a vacuum, I can say that Ditto could also revenge kill Zacian-Crowned, and yet this is not even close to an argument for keeping it in the meta. Merely foregoing the actual damage a Pokémon does to the metagame and listing out possible blanket checks (when the point of this is not just sweeping teams, but also breaking cores) misses the point of the suspect.

For my own thoughts, let's not forget that we're not suspecting Zacian as a single Pokémon in a vacuum. Zacian opens up way too many paths for a variety of partners (whether or not it's on the team as prepping for it is just the current meta). TailGlowVM says it best in their post above, but what is essentially happening is too much role compression for current defensive Pokémon. Xerneas, Marshadow, Zekrom all either overwhelm or take advantage of the holes that Zacian leaves behind both in play and during the teambuilding period, and those mons are just a few examples. Other Pokémon in the meta also do this and can have similar effects, but the combined limited ability for Zacian's checks to KO after a switch-in, to not get 2HKOd/OHKOd by a coverage move and to recover reliably after a bad play (Dusk-Mane having to choose to switch out after getting hit by a CC or predicting the Zacian player to retreat themselves, knowing this) is something the other current threats lack. Just to give an example, a decent Yveltal set can cleanly avoid the 2HKO from Calyrex-Shadow, another centralising Pokémon, which allows it to just Roost off the damage. This is why people can run with just an Yveltal for Caly, while Zacian needs 2 different checks on a team to make up for a bad play.

Then there's also the fact that Band is not it's only set as Babiri berry, Substitute, etc have all been popping off (all of them as viable as the last). All of these constitutes a good enough reason to BAN Zacian.

Actually, now that I think about it, most Marshadow variants are able to deal with Zacian-H if only they replace Poltergeist with Spectral Thief. Spectral Thief can be used for a surprise attack on most Zacian, especially if said Marshadow is sashed. For instance, Swords Dance Zacian can be reverse sweeped by Marshadow after its +3 Attack is snatched by Marshadow. Even Substitute variants are not safe since Spectral Thief passes through Sub as well.

Besides, Zacian gets chipped incredibly quickly. Even if Zacian manages to bust through Necrozma, it gets massively chipped (36% after 2 Rocky Helmets), leaving it vulnerable to powerful attacks such as Astral Barrage from Calyrex-Shadow. Therefore, though Zacian is a powerful Pokemon in the Ubers metagame, I do not see it as dominating at all.

Calculations

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 190-225 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Chip from Rocky Helmet and Rocks can help bring this to an OHKO.

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 285-336 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO. Jolly Band can also be run, outspeeding Adamant Zacian.

252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian: 207-244 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. After 2 rounds of Rocky Helmet, Astral Barrage is able to blow through Zacian even without a boosting item such as Life Orb.

 

[Trade]

Actually, now that I think about it, most Marshadow variants are able to deal with Zacian-H if only they replace Poltergeist with Spectral Thief. Spectral Thief can be used for a surprise attack on most Zacian, especially if said Marshadow is sashed. For instance, Swords Dance Zacian can be reverse sweeped by Marshadow after its +3 Attack is snatched by Marshadow. Even Substitute variants are not safe since Spectral Thief passes through Sub as well.

Besides, Zacian gets chipped incredibly quickly. Even if Zacian manages to bust through Necrozma, it gets massively chipped (36% after 2 Rocky Helmets), leaving it vulnerable to powerful attacks such as Astral Barrage from Calyrex-Shadow. Therefore, though Zacian is a powerful Pokemon in the Ubers metagame, I do not see it as dominating at all.

Calculations

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 190-225 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Chip from Rocky Helmet and Rocks can help bring this to an OHKO.

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 285-336 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO. Jolly Band can also be run, outspeeding Adamant Zacian.

252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian: 207-244 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. After 2 rounds of Rocky Helmet, Astral Barrage is able to blow through Zacian even without a boosting item such as Life Orb.

Again, inconsequential. A good player will always scout versus something like a Marshadow. And if you're keeping your Zacian in on a Calyrex-Shadow at 70%, you shouldn't be playing this tier; this is also assuming that the Necrozma is Rocky Helmet. If you want to make an argument for Zacian staying in, don't keep it in a vacuum. You're not soloing a team using Zacian. You have partners and saying X beats Y, therefore Y is not broken is a bad argument.

And why should I weaken my Marshadow's ability to beat a larger number of mons by replacing Spectral with Poltergeist and running Jolly (in the hopes that Zacian is Adamant, which it really isn't a number of times)? You lose out on beating Ho-Oh, Eternatus and other Fat Ubers mons to check a single mon, which is actually an argument for its ban, so thank you for that.

 

[Gareeb]

Besides, Zacian gets chipped incredibly quickly. Even if Zacian manages to bust through Necrozma, it gets massively chipped (36% after 2 Rocky Helmets), leaving it vulnerable to powerful attacks such as Astral Barrage from Calyrex-Shadow. Therefore, though Zacian is a powerful Pokemon in the Ubers metagame, I do not see it as dominating at all.

I am with you bro

 

[GeniusFromHoenn]

Actually, now that I think about it, most Marshadow variants are able to deal with Zacian-H if only they replace Poltergeist with Spectral Thief. Spectral Thief can be used for a surprise attack on most Zacian, especially if said Marshadow is sashed. For instance, Swords Dance Zacian can be reverse sweeped by Marshadow after its +3 Attack is snatched by Marshadow. Even Substitute variants are not safe since Spectral Thief passes through Sub as well.

Besides, Zacian gets chipped incredibly quickly. Even if Zacian manages to bust through Necrozma, it gets massively chipped (36% after 2 Rocky Helmets), leaving it vulnerable to powerful attacks such as Astral Barrage from Calyrex-Shadow. Therefore, though Zacian is a powerful Pokemon in the Ubers metagame, I do not see it as dominating at all.

Calculations

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 190-225 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Chip from Rocky Helmet and Rocks can help bring this to an OHKO.

+1 252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 285-336 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO. Jolly Band can also be run, outspeeding Adamant Zacian.

252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian: 207-244 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. After 2 rounds of Rocky Helmet, Astral Barrage is able to blow through Zacian even without a boosting item such as Life Orb.

Sorry in advance if it's looks rude but we're just having a discussion about the meta.
1) Not all Zacian are Adamant natured. I personally use jolly Zac sometimes to outspeed mild Eternatus.
2) Are you sure about sash Marsh as a counter? Stealth rocks are Everywhere. Spikes are also used. And even if you get 0.1 damage by nuzzle or any move that does damage you're gone. Also spectral thief doesn't OHKO at even +1 so if you're faster and attack first, Zacian still kos if your sash is broken.
+1 252+ Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian: 210-247 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's adamant marsh. You can imagine even lower roll on jolly marsh. And plus you cannot switch in risking play rough. If you come in after one of your mons is down and you still have sash intact, I would, so would many people who don't want to risk sash, simply Switch out! And Zacian comes out sometime later, you sack another mon, send marsh again, I switch out again! This is almost like saying marshadow is calyrex shadow check. Similar would happen if you depend on marsh to beat calyrex.
Again, sorry if you felt it was rude but we're just having a normal discussion.

 

[Edgar]

I was honestly surprised when I heard Zacian-Hero was being suspect-tested. I expected Calyrex-S to be the next one on the line since I believe it is a more appearent problem in practice. I think a lot of the matches are defined by who gets rid of Yveltal first (or which is the last Eternatus standing) which is a consequence of how menacing Calyrex-S is (with just 2 sets, mind you) but, that cat's out of the bag. Personally, I disagree with a Zacian ban, even if it's "restrictive" in teambuilding (funny how that's an argument for banning things now when Ubers has had a certain degree of that since gen 4/5), I can imagine the metagame would be far worse without its presence.

I've had my fair share of battles in SS and I can safely say the state of the metagame not only is better off with Zacian than without it but, that mon's presence is actually more beneficial. Although HO and offensively based teams have a harder issue checking Zacian, I'd argue that without it, Stall and defensively inclined teams would be way harder to break down and overall would lead to a less enjoyable metagame. Not because Stall is unbeatable but, because the fact that there won't be a reasonable counterweight or solid way to push back. There's a reason Zacian thrives as the best breaker in the current meta and I think it's because it does it with very little effort, I believe that is necessary to keep the balance.

I think post-Zacian ban metagame should be accounted for when pondering your verdict. We might think we don't like it right now but consider the consequences of it being gone and what would it mean for SS Ubers.

Just my 2 cents.

TL;DR

Do Not Ban

 

[JT Yao]

I was honestly surprised when I heard Zacian-Hero was being suspect-tested. I expected Calyrex-S to be the next one on the line since I believe it is a more appearent problem in practice. I think a lot of the matches are defined by who gets rid of Yveltal first (or which is the last Eternatus standing) which is a consequence of how menacing Calyrex-S is (with just 2 sets, mind you) but, that cat's out of the bag. Personally, I disagree with a Zacian ban, even if it's "restrictive" in teambuilding (funny how that's an argument for banning things now when Ubers has had a certain degree of that since gen 4/5), I can imagine the metagame would be far worse without its presence.

I've had my fair share of battles in SS and I can safely say the state of the metagame not only is better off with Zacian than without it but, that mon's presence is actually more beneficial. Although HO and offensively based teams have a harder issue checking Zacian, I'd argue that without it, Stall and defensively inclined teams would be way harder to break down and overall would lead to a less enjoyable metagame. Not because Stall is unbeatable but, because the fact that there won't be a reasonable counterweight or solid way to push back. There's a reason Zacian thrives as the best breaker in the current meta and I think it's because it does it with very little effort, I believe that is necessary to keep the balance.

I think post-Zacian ban metagame should be accounted for when pondering your verdict. We might think we don't like it right now but consider the consequences of it being gone and what would it mean for SS Ubers.

Just my 2 cents.

TL;DR

Do Not Ban

Now that I've gotten requirements for the Zacian-H suspect, I'd like to reiterate some of the points Edgar made above and explain my reasoning for why I will be voting Do Not Ban.

First and foremost, Zacian-H is one of the only two offensive threats in the tier that require you to run two checks to it, in the form of NDM + a Regenerator pivot. While this may seem very restricting, it is important to realize that many team compositions greatly benefit from the use of a Regenerator pivot. Standard YEN cores are already greatly pressured by offensive threats like Groudon and Zekrom, meaning adding a Regenerator pivot like Tangrowth or Ho-Oh, the latter of which would enable a team to successfully run Scarf Yveltal, greatly improve these matchups.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Zacian-H is a very solid breaker, but it's not as oppressive as it is made out to be. In fact, I go as far as saying that Zacian-H is more like a "paper-threat" comparable to that of Specs Kyogre in BW and Geomancy Xerneas in XY and ORAS. That is, if your team is losing to Zacian-H, it was not built optimally. Sorry for sounding blunt, but a well-built team should almost never lose to Zacian-H on the spot. Now the argument that Zacian-H pressures NDM + Regenerator pivots enough for another offensive threat like Groudon or Zekrom to sweep is a bit more sound. However, that argument can be applied for basically any combination of offensive threats like said Groudon and Zekrom. In SS, the reason why fat balances and stall are unsuccessful at the moment is because there are way too many offensive threats to consider. Eliminating the tier's single best breaker means that these types of teams would become more difficult to deal with over time.

Banded Zacian-H is the single most prediction reliant mon in the tier. If you get a prediction correct, you might be able to place your team in a favorable, but not necessarily winnable, position. More often than not, your prediction will boil down to a 50-50. For example, take the UPL IX Week 1 Game between BasedWhat? and Garay oak: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-561783

In this game, one would think from team preview that since Garay Oak does not have a NDM or a Regenerator pivot other than Band Ho-Oh (which simply cannot switch into Zacian-H for obvious reasons), he loses to Zacian-H. Indeed, based on the reasoning I've read so far, you would expect BasedWhat? to simply decimate Garay's team with Band Zacian-H, as every time it comes in, it either breaks something or claims a kill. Wrong! If you look closely at that replay, Zacian-H got chipped from Rocky Helmet + residual Toxic damage. Fast forward to the pivotal turns 89 and 90. BasedWhat? had switched his Zacian-H on Garay's Band Ho-Oh. It came down to a 50-50, where if he clicked Close Combat over Wild Charge on Garay's predicted switch to Chansey, he would have most likely been in a favorable position. Unfortunately, BasedWhat? clicked Wild Charge, got the 50-50 wrong, didn't even OHKO Chansey (very sad), and his Zacian-H took enough recoil that it put it at 18% and out of commission for the rest of the game. As an aside, you might call Garay's team suboptimal from the lack of NDM, but interestingly, his structure is by far the most optimal Band Ho-Oh structure you can make at the moment. That said, to get any real mileage out of Zacian-H, you actually have to predict correctly. And at the end of the day, a 50-50 is just a coin toss. Guess right and you're in a favorable position. Guess wrong and your Zacian-H won't be doing much in any given game.

For the more dangerous Swords Dance Zacian-H, different levels of viable counterplay exist. From experience, Swords Dance Zacian-H can at best trade with an opposing NDM, assuming Zacian-H is holding a Babiri Berry. If it somehow manages to survive the exchange, Zacian-H will be so low on health that it can easily be revenge killed. Now again, one might bring up the argument that if NDM is defeated, then this allows something like Geomancy Xerneas to sweep. A well constructed team should simply not carry a single check in the form of NDM for both Xerneas and Zacian, especially when the former can break right through it. Swords Dance Zacian-H is the single greatest threat to stall teams in the current SS meta. Many stalls run multiple Regenerator pivots, Rocky Helmet, and even Ditto, to deter SD Zacian-H from setting up and sweeping. That said, it's a threat that is more than manageable enough, as it can be either revenge killed or chipped down over time, like any other major offensive threat.

When laddering for suspect test requirements, every person will have a different experience. But more often than not, you will lose to another, more oppressive threat, rather than Zacian-H. For newer players, I highly recommend basing your vote off the reasoning found within this thread as well as determining how many games did you lose because of Zacian-H while laddering. Please make an informed decision when voting, as it is one of the two most pivotal mons in the tier. I sincerely hope that Zacian-H is not banned at this point in time, as it is necessary to maintaining some of the stability found within a volatile meta like SS. I can't say the same for the more broken Ghost Horse, but that's for another day...

Edit: One thing to also keep in mind is that in the event that Zacian-H is removed from the tier, team compositions will more or less remain the same. Think about that going forward, especially if that's one of the reasons why you want Zacian-H banned.

 

[GeniusFromHoenn]

Now that I've gotten requirements for the Zacian-H suspect, I'd like to reiterate some of the points Edgar made above and explain my reasoning for why I will be voting Do Not Ban.

First and foremost, Zacian-H is one of the only two offensive threats in the tier that require you to run two checks to it, in the form of NDM + a Regenerator pivot. While this may seem very restricting, it is important to realize that many team compositions greatly benefit from the use of a Regenerator pivot. Standard YEN cores are already greatly pressured by offensive threats like Groudon and Zekrom, meaning adding a Regenerator pivot like Tangrowth or Ho-Oh, the latter of which would enable a team to successfully run Scarf Yveltal, greatly improve these matchups.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Zacian-H is a very solid breaker, but it's not as oppressive as it is made out to be. In fact, I go as far as saying that Zacian-H is more like a "paper-threat" comparable to that of Specs Kyogre in BW and Geomancy Xerneas in XY and ORAS. That is, if your team is losing to Zacian-H, it was not built optimally. Sorry for sounding blunt, but a well-built team should almost never lose to Zacian-H on the spot. Now the argument that Zacian-H pressures NDM + Regenerator pivots enough for another offensive threat like Groudon or Zekrom to sweep is a bit more sound. However, that argument can be applied for basically any combination of offensive threats like said Groudon and Zekrom. In SS, the reason why fat balances and stall are unsuccessful at the moment is because there are way too many offensive threats to consider. Eliminating the tier's single best breaker means that these types of teams would become more difficult to deal with over time.

Banded Zacian-H is the single most prediction reliant mon in the tier. If you get a prediction correct, you might be able to place your team in a favorable, but not necessarily winnable, position. More often than not, your prediction will boil down to a 50-50. For example, take the UPL IX Week 1 Game between BasedWhat? and Garay oak: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-561783

In this game, one would think from team preview that since Garay Oak does not have a NDM or a Regenerator pivot other than Band Ho-Oh (which simply cannot switch into Zacian-H for obvious reasons), he loses to Zacian-H. Indeed, based on the reasoning I've read so far, you would expect BasedWhat? to simply decimate Garay's team with Band Zacian-H, as every time it comes in, it either breaks something or claims a kill. Wrong! If you look closely at that replay, Zacian-H got chipped from Rocky Helmet + residual Toxic damage. Fast forward to the pivotal turns 89 and 90. BasedWhat? had switched his Zacian-H on Garay's Band Ho-Oh. It came down to a 50-50, where if he clicked Close Combat over Wild Charge on Garay's predicted switch to Chansey, he would have most likely been in a favorable position. Unfortunately, BasedWhat? clicked Wild Charge, got the 50-50 wrong, didn't even OHKO Chansey (very sad), and his Zacian-H took enough recoil that it put it at 18% and out of commission for the rest of the game. As an aside, you might call Garay's team suboptimal from the lack of NDM, but interestingly, his structure is by far the most optimal Band Ho-Oh structure you can make at the moment. That said, to get any real mileage out of Zacian-H, you actually have to predict correctly. And at the end of the day, a 50-50 is just a coin toss. Guess right and you're in a favorable position. Guess wrong and your Zacian-H won't be doing much in any given game.

For the more dangerous Swords Dance Zacian-H, different levels of viable counterplay exist. From experience, Swords Dance Zacian-H can at best trade with an opposing NDM, assuming Zacian-H is holding a Babiri Berry. If it somehow manages to survive the exchange, Zacian-H will be so low on health that it can easily be revenge killed. Now again, one might bring up the argument that if NDM is defeated, then this allows something like Geomancy Xerneas to sweep. A well constructed team should simply not carry a single check in the form of NDM for both Xerneas and Zacian, especially when the former can break right through it. Swords Dance Zacian-H is the single greatest threat to stall teams in the current SS meta. Many stalls run multiple Regenerator pivots, Rocky Helmet, and even Ditto, to deter SD Zacian-H from setting up and sweeping. That said, it's a threat that is more than manageable enough, as it can be either revenge killed or chipped down over time, like any other major offensive threat.

When laddering for suspect test requirements, every person will have a different experience. But more often than not, you will lose to another, more oppressive threat, rather than Zacian-H. For newer players, I highly recommend basing your vote off the reasoning found within this thread as well as determining how many games did you lose because of Zacian-H while laddering. Please make an informed decision when voting, as this is one of the two most pivotal mons in the tier. I sincerely hope that Zacian-H is not banned at this point in time, as it it necessary to maintaining some of the stability found within a volatile meta like SS. I can't say the same for the more broken Ghost Horse, but that's for another day...

Edit: One thing to also keep in mind is that in the event that Zacian-H is removed from the tier, team compositions will more or less remain the same. Think about that going forward, especially if that's one of the reasons why you want Zacian-H banned.

First of all, I'd like to say, what you say Zacian is the best threat to stall and fat balances is correct and I agree with you. You also said let's imagine if Zacian goes it'll be difficult to beat balances and stall. I disagree with this point specifically. Once Zacian goes, many ubers which just lie in options most of the time, will be used a lot more.
The unova dragons: Zekrom and Kyurem-black can be used. Zekrom can straight up beat down ho-oh, can use sub/weather bal in sun to beat tang and take on Necrozma-dm after little chip. Similar story for kyu-b: fusion bolt ho-oh, icicle spear for tang and take on Necrozma-dm after little chip (all after one or more dragon dances ofc)
These both are OHKOed by Zac if no +1 speed. But these are just side heroes.
The main Pokemon which benefits from going away of Zacian is Urifshu-S.
I bet you'll be like really? There's geomancy xern, special yveltal, absurd draining kiss calyrex why is it even good?
But please let's measure its power. I'm not at all saying Urifshu-S will become best uber or something but it will be usable. It's choice band set will be an amazing wallbreaker.
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 254-300 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Xerneas isn't a switch in either, as you can see above.
So we can kinda conclude that the uber meta will still have good wall breakers and set up sweepers which although aren't as powerful as Zacian, but can get the job done in a healthier metagame.

 

[JT Yao]

First of all, I'd like to say, what you say Zacian is the best threat to stall and fat balances is correct and I agree with you. You also said let's imagine if Zacian goes it'll be difficult to beat balances and stall. I disagree with this point specifically. Once Zacian goes, many ubers which just lie in options most of the time, will be used a lot more.
The unova dragons: Zekrom and Kyurem-black can be used. Zekrom can straight up beat down ho-oh, can use sub/weather bal in sun to beat tang and take on Necrozma-dm after little chip. Similar story for kyu-b: fusion bolt ho-oh, icicle spear for tang and take on Necrozma-dm after little chip (all after one or more dragon dances ofc)
These both are OHKOed by Zac if no +1 speed. But these are just side heroes.
The main Pokemon which benefits from going away of Zacian is Urifshu-S.
I bet you'll be like really? There's geomancy xern, special yveltal, absurd draining kiss calyrex why is it even good?
But please let's measure its power. I'm not at all saying Urifshu-S will become best uber or something but it will be usable. It's choice band set will be an amazing wallbreaker.
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 254-300 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Xerneas isn't a switch in either, as you can see above.
So we can kinda conclude that the uber meta will still have good wall breakers and set up sweepers which although aren't as powerful as Zacian, but can get the job done in a healthier metagame.

While the combination of the aforementioned threats can potentially threaten many fat balances and stall teams, none of them can break or overwhelm these kinds of teams as well as Zacian-H can. Keeping it in the tier simply allows for more reasonable counterplay, rather than stacking offensive threats on top of one another, which ultimately leaves your team weaker to more things that it would like to be. I think you're missing the main point of what my post was trying to convey. Zacian-H does not significantly decrease the usage of any of the mons you mentioned on your post. In fact, many teams in the current metagame are built around some of those mons, and though they need more support to function well, it still can be done. If you'd like examples of teams that work just fine with the aforementioned mons in your post, I highly encourage you to check out some Ubers Winter Seasonal Replays, as well as UPL IX replays. I'll give a small example of an excellent Kyurem-B team that was used by FatFighter2 against Lacus Clyne in Round 12 of the most recent Ubers Winter Seasonal: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-555741

These mons can still be used just fine with the right team support, and removing Zacian-H does not make these offensive threats any more or less viable than they already are. That said, I'd like to encourage everyone reading this to please make an informed decision when voting, as it is one of the two most pivotal mons in the tier. I sincerely hope that Zacian-H is not banned at this point in time, as it is necessary to maintaining some of the stability found within a volatile meta like SS.

 

[Fc]

I don't think Zacian is currently banworthy in the metagame, and will be voting do not ban on it. The posts above have covered a lot of good reasonings behind it, but despite CB's lack of "counters" I don't think it's something unbeatable and can definitely be taken on both in game and in the builder. It's hard not to compare it to Zacian-C which I did vote ban on, because even though you could technically beat it in the builder with niche stuff like Corv + duggy, normal checks just kinda didn't exist since everything got deleted and it had an insane defensive typing, speed, and natural attack. Zacian-H on the other hand is slower so it essentially never runs bulk, is weaker naturally so it requires either a CB or boosts for power, and doesn't have as good a defensive typing.

But drawing away from the comparisons, the issues I have with Zacian are how I see bans should be made, if a pokemon has viable, reliable, and at least somewhat varied counterplay it shouldn't be banned. By varied I usually mean more than just a single mon that beats it, since if there's at least more than 1 option things can always be changed up. I explained why I think Caly-S isn't banworthy under these conditions either here, and I think similar principles apply. The difference is that CB Zacian doesn't have a true counter which is why I think it's the more threatening pick especially with SD being just as good if not better of a set, but it still has plenty of ways to be dealt with. Tangrowth, Amoonguss, and Toxapex have all been used quite a bit, both because Regenerator is broken and also as a natural response to Zacian with helmet chip. Other cores with Pokemon like Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Skarmory have also been used, showing that there's variety in dealing with it. Examples from tour players include myself, reje, staxi, and garay oak using these Pokemon without a Necrozma-DM, and with it checking Zacian is just so much more reliable, and ndm would probably still see insane usage without Zacian due to how good of a mon it is. The other issue comes from reliability of the counterplay, but I still think the defensive counterplay especially with how easy it is to stack resists to Zacian's coverage is reliable enough. A core of something like Tangrowth + NDM both with helmet is just almost never getting broken by Zacian barring an insane amount of hax, with even SD babiri sets not dealing enough damage and losing to status from tang, not to mention Amoonguss beating it. It also goes without saying that all of these mons are more than viable even without Zacian, especially Ho-Oh, NDM, and Toxapex.

All that above is also ignoring the offensive counterplay to the mon, which I think is an often forgotten but super important part of how a mon is. If it has ways to break its checks but can't be revenge killed then it's likely too much, but Zacian doesn't have the longevity to stick around. Hazards wear it down easily, Calyrex-S the second best mon in the tier can revenge kill it, Scarf Yvel and Xerneas can threaten it, and a lot of things just don't get OHKO'd by Zacian like Groudon, Eternatus, and Lando-T even when locked into its strongest move, and many more live it when Zacian isn't CB locked into its best move or is SD and not boosted, with things like Eternatus even living boosted prough. Other offensive checks like Sneak Marsh when chipped, Ditto, and Sludge Bomb fast Eternatus all exist and are fairly common, so I think offensively you can beat Zacian reliably also. It feels a bit more like a paper Pokemon than as good in game, which I think a lot of things feel like such as Caly-S and Zygarde which in theory can break like every check but don't perform as well in game, but even though I think Zacian is still arguably the biggest offensive threat in the tier, it isn't banworthy and removing it would not really be necessary. I believe that when voting it should be taken into account that this is still Ubers and the power level is naturally so much higher and the bans are kept to a minimum, and Zacian just doesn't push through the criteria I like to go by with its checks both defensively and offensively to warrant a ban.

 

[Ur local kangaroo]

Time to talk about the dog that doesn't need the sword because he's a hero

(This time, I'm going to try to get reqs)
From a power standpoint, this mon's power doesn't even need any introduction, it does a lot of damage and puts most offensive mons that are slower at a huge disadvantage point, and even if a mon survives an attack or it out speeds Zacian, it still isn't guaranteed to OHKO Zacian, because Zacian has a surprising amount of bulk, even an Astral Barrage from Calyrex-S isn't going to OHKO Zacian, and to top that off, Zacian has an amazing movepool that covers just about everything.

From a centralization standpoint, Zacian forces a large amount of centralization, because it forces a lot of sacrifices just to play around it, but it's not perfect, because Choice Banded sets can get locked on a move that isn't very effective, and allow mons like Necrozma-Dusk-Mane to force it out or have a Ditto come in and revenge kill it; but being forced to run something like a Ditto doesn't prove that it isn't broken, but on the bright side, it's actually kind of fun to use it on your team

Considering everything I said, I'm going to vote

My vote

BAN

 

[Fardin]

i wanna address some things said in this thread

just cause some sub-optimal cores and teams managed to find a unique way to handle zac, it does not mean its not a mon that restricts people a lot in the builder. people mention how tang + ndm is probably one of the best viable cores to check zac since tang can usually pull its weight by itself as far as checking big threats in the metas go, but as we have seen, the meta always adapts to them. with fire move dons becoming the norm just to counter that core, and spdef invested DD zygs which also just beats every tang set that exists, it's simply not as good as it used to be.

i've been building a fuck ton these past couple weeks, and one thing ive noticed is that the fact that zac requires ndm + tang/max def rocky helmet don/ or other sub optimal mon means you are forced down a very limited path as far as the rest of your options go. no matter what people are trying to say to themselves, the fact that that extra sub optimal mon is forced on ur teams means the rest of the team building process is EXTREMELY limited. with Yve being near mando, Etern for ogre/yve, and a revenge killer, you have pretty much one slot to be creative with. you cant even go with the basic BO structure because the mons that are actually able to make a dent in most bulky teams get bopped by band zac. it simply becomes a sack for sack game without a dedicated second mon along with ndm. thats probably why I rarely ever seen any BO or more offensive balances without the 4 mon def core.

as far as mixing in semi-offensive mons to handle zac, it could be a fair point. A core of ndm + ho-oh and a 394 speed sludge bomb etern could realistically handle zac with a couple 50/50s, but now with etern not running its most optimal set, you are forced to have a mon like blissey on ur team for specs ogre and etc. your options are simply too limited. (and even with ndm + hooh + etern, zac can still break thru fairly easily)

also seen fc showing a replay of a stall that purely relies on toxa to wall band set, but a simple rocks is all it takes to almost guarantee its kill on a right read and start creating holes.
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 260-306 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

i just find it very hard to be creative when im forced to run ndm + something else thats not as good at role compression. i assume zac-c couldve been checked by quag on just about every team but that's not wat the people wanted ubers to be, not sure why we comprising for zac-h when it has a very similar effect in the builder, if not worse for requiring literally 2 mons to wall.

also seen too many people just assuming the meta would be worse off if zac is gone and that nothing would change and stall would be broke and etc and etc. i'm really not that familiar with how core tiers handle these stuff, but as far as i know, you never want to keep a pokemon just because you think its absence would make the meta worse later on. you are pretty much compromising for something that you think is less bad based on complete assumptions. nobody knows for sure how the meta would turn out, that's why you don't wanna take these stuff into consideration.

 

[LBN]

Personally, i'm torn right now. I know before in all places i've said Zacian-Hero is dumb as shit, (and it is) but alot of me wants to wish Calyrex-Shadow was up here right now, and i feel like Zacian only is as broken as it is because it bounces off Calyrex-Shadow in the same vein. This is probably gonna be a bunch of rambling because really none of my thoughts are concrete right now.

Zacian really feels like it's a pokemon that capitalizes on the metagame Caly-G itself creates. The big thing Calyrex does that warps this metagame is the speed tiers. There are so many examples of mons being able to get away with non +speed on sets because Caly-G either removed from the metagame on its own, or benefits from the removal of the pokemon. Mewtwo died death on Calyrex-Shadows hands, and without that Eternatus is practically the fastest pokemon in this tier. But Because Eternatus rarely runs max speed since it's busy wanting bulk of things like Yveltal or Kyogre, Alot of things, Zacian Included, can get away with adamant because there's nothing to outspeed with jolly anyway. Marshadow runs adamant too but i dont think it running adamant would change with no Arceus in the game and until then shouldnt change either. There isn't anything in the 350-383 tier the gremlin can outrun thats a valuable target there if Zacian begins running jolly. I know that losing the best revenge killer in the FRANCHISE would suck because enjoy having more fun with Groudon, Zekrom and Xerneas, and blah blah blah. I will have fun, i'll have fun putting LUNALA on a shit ton of my squads because that mon is raw as SHIT

Tangrowth in my eyes will still be just as good even if its getting lured by Groudon and Zekrom, because if they are being forced to run that lure then Zekrom ain't running roost or magnet rise, and Don ain't running rock polish or stone edge and that makes it either Insert faster mon here or Ho-oh's Banquet.

All the above points on Zacian are both true from both perspectives, which besides that AG post because lol that post had no concise fact. I just haven't had to go out my way to go crazy on the ppl voting for making a dumb choice off dumb reasons like the stag test. This time, i really don't think there is a clear cut answer this time. Do i think the tier would be better with Zacian gone, yea probably. Do i think it's the core issue, not really no. That with all the above points considered in like it's relative lack of longevity, worse defensive profile, while still having no great switchins and SD Zacian just being able to rip thru it's main pivots w babiri, despite things like that make me question if im going to no brain monkey ban vote once more. I probably will vote ban anyway, but i'm definitely on the fence more on this than i thought i would be.

 

[MoniumXD]

In my opinion removing Zacian-Hero will not solve problem of unhealthy meta. Moreover it will only strenghten the dominance of other overpowered mons in Ubers like Calyrex-Shadow which with its As One (Grimm Neigh) ability will become an unbeatable monster meaning Calyrex-s will become a sole winner of this matter.
Aside of that Zacian-Hero still faces a lot of dangers from steel types like swords dance + iron head bisharp or scarf magnezone. Also poison types like specs+sludge wave gengar deal with zacian-h effectively

 

[MoniumXD]

In an effort to not be verbose:
Zacian-H is very fast, the second fastest [viable] uber by speed stat
Zacian-H essentially has a 220 base attack due to its ability, with choice band and an adamant nature that attack stat goes to ~900
Banded Zacian's attack stat and movepool make it capable of 1hko'ing or 2hko'ing every mon in ubers
The only way to deal with banded Zacian reliably is to dedicate 2+ team slots as checks (usually defensive ndm and at least one regenerator pivot)

Meanwhile SD Zacian is a whole 'nother can of worms. These sets are not locked by choice band and can sweep your team if you are not wary.

Is it possible to beat Zacian? Absolutely, otherwise this suspect test would have came much sooner. As it is though, Zacian stifles team building immensely and is one of the root causes of Gen 8 Ubers being so stale. Its removal would shake things up (in a good way) and break the gen out of the rut it has been in for the past four months

Beating Zacian-Hero is possible.
All you need are
1.toxic spikes or toxic itself
2. choice specs gengar or other specially offensive poison type.
3. steel types like bisharp.