np SS UU Stage 1 - Here Comes The Sun (Diggersby, Durant, & Weavile banned)

vivalospride

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Hikari's post p much sums up how I feel about this metagame for the most part. Even from the getgo when we had kommo and sylv it was clear that this meta was just a whole bunch of humongous threats and very little defensive counterplay to literally any of it in terms of like, WALLS/blanket checks. Hippo + Sylv was p much as close as you could get to blanket checking a portion of the tier but even then you were bound to get overwhelmed by hazards, knock off, or just some braindead HO with a bunch of hard hitters. We can't rework the tier and add more regen mons other than that piece of shit grass thing, we can't innovate random mons out of our ass to much of an extent now that the dex is cut in half. We have limited options to work with, so this is just something that a lot of us are probably going to have to get used to, as hikari said.

The main thing I wanted to talk about tho is Gengar. Gengar is w/o question extremely good, but the meta would imo benefit far greater from looking at daunt/goon/whatever before looking at gar. Main reason for this is how it'll effect building, there's several viable offensive ghosts and I think whether Gengar is in the tier or not, we're gonna be running spdef darks so we don't get swept by the teapot especially. I don't think Gengar leaving would make the meta much better and would literally just get rid of a threat and leave the impact on the tier at that. Obviously the other offensive ghosts like chandy and teapot aren't as fast and Gengar and that's a huge deal, but if you can get an opportunity to get +2 with Gengar then you can definitely get an opportunity to shell smash with the teapot, and at that point the speed tiers obviously don't matter as much. This tier has a fuckin insane amount of priority btw, like seriously.
Barraskewda - Aqua Jet
Cloyster - Ice Shard
Crawdaunt - Aqua Jet
Diggersby - Quick Attack (yes ik this wouldnt hit geng, stfu)
Doublade - Shadow Sneak
Durant - First Impression
Flygon - First Impression
Golisopod - First Impression
Haxorus - First Impression
Lucario - Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, Vacuum Wave
Mamoswine - Ice Shard
Sirfetch'd - First Impression
Weavile - Ice Shard


Not to mention the plethora of faster mons/viable scarfers... revenging geng isn't that big of an issue and there's definitely decent options in regards to defensively answering it along with the other ghosts, such as: Drapion, Umbreon, Gastrodon (loses to teapot), dodging Focus Blast, etc. I'm not tryna make a case for "geng isnt that good" bc it's obviously very good, very very good. S worthy for sure but I don't see it leaving impacting the meta as positively as daunt/goon leaving would. Honestly switching into Knock Off + other STAB is something I don't even think about while building cause it's just not possible and you have to just deal with it. Both goon and daunt are p easy to revenge as well, especially since their speed tiers are a fair bit lower than Geng's, but letting Geng in is not nearly as big of an issue as letting daunt/goon in for a no drawback Knock Off. +2 LO calcs from geng are p fuckin terrifying but getting there isn't v easy and the majority of things with even remotely decent bulk can live raw lo sludge waves and trade with geng.

I'm just rambling as usual but my point is that I support goon/daunt being on the chopping block before geng imo tbh ngl atm fax.

A few other random thoughts about the meta: boots are broken as fuck.. who tf needs removal??, LO aoa barraskewda is a p neat late game cleaner/general wincon vs offense, y'all are overhyping webs they're honestly not that good, boots are p cool on offensive mons too like weavile to get in better cleaning positions late game, copperajah is underrated, I fucking wish we had more rockers that fit on HO other than Mamoswine or like weak policy rhyp on screens/veil, NP rotom forms are cool as fuck.

PS: This isn't clear in this post bc it's kinda not what I'm talking about but daunt > obstagoon for sure, I think.
 
Hello.

The Pokemon Direct was today. Not gonna lie I'm not very excited for most of the mons that are returning. As we know, the council has been working very hard in beta to make the tier stable and actually playable. This season's pass will likely screw everything over, or worse, make the tier worse. (well, more than it already is at least) For example, we may get some mons that make the broken trio of Obstagoon, Crawdaunt, and Gengar manageable. I urge us to look at this with more than the tunnel vision I've seen that this will "shake up the tier" or "make it more fun" like some of the arguments I've seen while talking to other people.

Let's also not forget that its been confirmed Home drops in February. Knock Off being widespread again will be pretty dumb to deal with without Megas or Z-Moves to remove the power boost. Toxic returning with Heal Bell potentially being purged doesn't sound very appealing either.

Also, its just come to my attention that we have two DLCs: one in June, one in fall. This means that essentially, we'll be screwed over two separate times and there's really nothing we can do about it. Sure you could just quickban all the broken mons, but that won't really progress the tier or its growth as a whole. Assuming we get 20 or so mons from OU that seem broken, suspecting at least a few of them might as well be inevitable. Normally this wouldn't be an issue but let's not forget that not only will we be trying to learn essentially three different metas in the span of a few months, but also this may create a Breloom/Buzzwole type situation, where one mon isn't banned or is freed due to another (potentially broken) mon overshadowing it.
 
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Hello.

The Pokemon Direct was today. Not gonna lie I'm not very excited for most of the mons that are returning. As we know, the council has been working very hard in beta to make the tier stable and actually playable. This season's pass will likely screw everything over, or worse, make the tier worse. (well, more than it already is at least) For example, we may get some mons that make the broken trio of Obstagoon, Crawdaunt, and Gengar manageable. I urge us to look at this with more than the tunnel vision I've seen that this will "shake up the tier" or "make it more fun" like some of the arguments I've seen while talking to other people.

Let's also not forget that its been confirmed Home drops in February. Knock Off being widespread again will be pretty dumb to deal with without Megas or Z-Moves to remove the power boost. Toxic returning with Heal Bell potentially being purged doesn't sound very appealing either.

Also, its just come to my attention that we have two DLCs: one in June, one in fall. This means that essentially, we'll be screwed over two separate times and there's really nothing we can do about it. Sure you could just quickban all the broken mons, but that won't really progress the tier or its growth as a whole. Assuming we get 20 or so mons from OU that seem broken, suspecting at least a few of them might as well be inevitable. Normally this wouldn't be an issue but let's not forget that not only will we be trying to learn essentially three different metas in the span of a few months, but also this may create a Breloom/Buzzwole type situation, where one mon isn't banned or is freed due to another (potentially broken) mon overshadowing it.
We basically have to treat all 3; Home, DLC 1, and DLC 2, like we would a 3rd version release. But it will be wild, as these are bigger shakeups, and instead of a year we only get a few months between each.
On top of the stuff that comes in with the DLC, OU will probably be dumping a whole bunch of their current mons down here when stuff like Landorus and Garchomp start running around up there again.
 
We basically have to treat all 3; Home, DLC 1, and DLC 2, like we would a 3rd version release. But it will be wild, as these are bigger shakeups, and instead of a year we only get a few months between each.
On top of the stuff that comes in with the DLC, OU will probably be dumping a whole bunch of their current mons down here when stuff like Landorus and Garchomp start running around up there again.
I am going to be sad because crobat + metagross will make sirfetchd harder to use with my webs team.
 

Pak

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(Disclaimer: thisbemyalt's drunk ass may have said some tom foolery on the alt while I was playing)

Welcome back wolfpack. I've played more generation 8 underused and wanted to share some (more concrete than last time) thoughts. So this time around, with the tier having developed further and possessing a somewhat deeper understanding of the tier myself, I made a point to abuse a broken while it was still here and doing as much as I could to keep the others somewhat in check.

[Crawdaunt is broken] Alright so I week or so ago, I distinctly remember yeezy/hogg/maybe some others really gassing up Crawdaunt as a threat p much on the same wave length as the more notable offenders in Gengar and Obstagoon, and I was all like psh no way. Anyway though, it made me want to try it out myself to see if that really held up in practice. Having really only used a couple other teams to this point, they had decent enough Crawdaunt matchups to limit its opportunities, so I went in kind of skeptical based on those experiences without thinking too much about it. Jesus christ god lord, this thing is an absolute monster, and might very well be the most broken mon in the tier atm. Crawdaunt + decently aggressive play + the lack of p much any hard defensive answer is a stupidly dangerous combo. This isn't SM or even ORAS, where we had enough half decent offensive and (kind of) defensive counterplay to dance around it long enough to get by. Daunt just picks kills left and right. I didn't save many replays but here's two Crawdaunts, in fact, killing things left and right. In theory, we both have some pivoting options to limit opportunities, but like I said, all it takes is a little aggressive play or some well-positioning teammates for Crawdaunt to be straight up ridiculous.

Anyway onto the team, I had another version with Sirfetch'd over Crawdaunt but this one had Crawdaunt so.. Yeah this is the team I used for the majority of these games and it went as you may have expected, Crawdaunt single handedly carried me to a shit load of wins. This team structure is pretty basic overall, double blanket checking Obstagoon via Rhyperior + Weezing and using my usual brain dead Taunt Noivern + TSpikes combo. Despite having a couple Defog options on hand, I ultimately said fuck it and went removal-less, which was more than fine at the end of the day. Boots are cool for my 1 rock weak and Noivern + a little support is pretty fire in any case vs webs. TSpikes were kinda annoying, and my original draft of this team was actually non-Levitate Weezing to partially help with that but eh, Daunt doesn't have too much longevity anyway and this team could generally do damage fast enough, or just win a hypothetical hazard war with my own + spin block. Scarf Rotom-C was really cool, especially for improving my mu vs stuff like Gengar to an extent and Inteleon which would be scary otherwise, but its Speed was more of a luxury than a necessity in combo with dual strong priority + Noivern. Since Z moves and megas are gone, my fat matchup with this team was pretty fire in most cases since like I implied, Rotom-C could just trick the Umbreon or w/e off the bat and Daunt with the Tspike + Taunt core was usually enough by itself.

Another thing that came to my attention while using this, is that Gengar, despite my team having no actual check to it, wasn't a huge issue in practice. This was pretty much by virtue of priority, general Speed, and limiting its opportunities with stuff like Shadow Ball Weezing. Btw that set's really cool, shoutouts to whoever I saw using that. On the other hand though, Obstagoon and opposing Crawdaunt were sooo much more oppressive in game, despite me having some halfway non shitty counterplay like I said above. In Obstagoon's case, it's mostly because of its really solid Speed, natural bulk, and ofc its ridiculously good coverage. I did have Weezing + Rhyperior, which is about as solid as it gets on BO, but it was always at least mildly something I had to dance around, more so than Gengar generally. Blah blah Crawdaunt kills everything across from it.

As expected, this post was non-coherent things thrown at a wall, but here's more incoherent thoughts like last time:
  • Galarian Weezing is god and it has like 17 viable moves + other general customizations. I saw some more traditional stuff like Toxic or my own Shadow Ball set I stole, plus some crazier stuff like nascar Weezing to creep Crawdaunt or even a Specs set to take advantage of its weirdly good coverage. tldr this things goat and one of the main defensive glues holding this whack tier together atm.​
  • I still think fat is bad generally, but again, my main teams were specifically well-equipped against it so maybe I'm a little biased.​
  • As you might have guessed from my post to this point, the ban order imo should be Crawdaunt then Obstagoon then Gengar. Don't get me wrong from what I said above, Gengar is still kinda ridiculous, but more playable due to being frail and semi tech-able.​
  • Are we going to get to a point where running rocks isn't 1000% manditory? It might sound stupid but everything and its mother that's weak to rocks is running boots. Say you have a super crazy optimal 6 mons that coincidentally can't fit rocks, would said builder still be castrated later in 2020? Who knows.​
  • Our steels are bad except Doublade is god too​
  • Duraladon seems pretty bad from my attempts with it (mainly bc its a steel that doesn't resist fairy) but is ironically an awful mu for the team above so it was a roller coaster of feelings every time it came out​
  • Yawn Eeveelutions still seem worse than other options the vast majority of the time​
  • Sash Mamo still at it​
  • If any mon deserves to have Tox back, it's Bronzong, poor soul​
  • HURRICANE STILL SUCKS​
 
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Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
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UU & Tour Head
Long post incoming, just wanted to chime in and give everyone my thoughts on the meta.

I’ll start with the big three. I’ll address them in order of brokenness as I see it.

:crawdaunt:

I’ve been talking up Crawdaunt ever since Kommo-o left. Slap on a Choice Band and there just aren’t switch-ins to this thing. Even things like max def Avalugg can get 2HKO’d by Crabhammer after either a little bit of chip or rocks down (because if Avalugg is your Daunt check, it ain’t keeping those fancy boots on for long). Sure, it’s slow, it’s easy to revenge, yadda yadda yadda. It doesn’t matter. When it comes in, something is taking a ton of damage, and then it switches out and does it again a few turns later. There is plenty of good VoltTurn support to get it in safely (not to mention Teleport Xatu, which not only gets Daunt in safely but can use TWave, screens or Tailwind to bypass its one weakness).

We have other strong breakers, but none are as outright threatening as Daunt. If you asked me what tiering decision I'd make this instant, it would probably be to ban this thing.

:gengar:

For a long time I thought Gengar could be managed in this tier. I mean it’s fast as hell and NP is terrifying, but there are a lot of things that force Gengar out and it doesn’t get a ton of setup opportunities without taking damage. With Doublade being a top 3 ‘mon, Umbreon being a staple on fatter teams and people moving toward Scarfers that reliably revenge Gar, I thought mostly the meta was fine with it.

Then I started using Specs with Sludge Bomb over Sludge Wave, and changed my mind. NP is still really good, and it’s also still one of the best scarfers in the tier, but I think it’s Specs that pushes it over the edge. Sludge Bomb’s 30% poison chance is absolutely key here. Once they eat a poison, things like Milotic and Umbreon are no longer safe switchins to SpexGar, to the point where I’ve even started stopped clicking Trick because Sludge Bomb alone was enough to pressure them. I also find the additional power just really good for Gar in general, since there are still a number of things that force it out, making it much more reliable as a hit and run attacker.

Accounting for Specs, Scarf and NP is an absolute nightmare for offensive and defensive teams alike, especially when you often can’t tell on preview which set it’s packing. While I was leaning toward no ban originally, I’ve come around on this one.

:obstagoon:

The goon. For whatever reason, despite the fact that this thing has zero decent answers when you take all its support moves into account (Taunt in particular is my favorite, but Obstruct has been growing on me, Bulk Up continues to surprise teams and Switcheroo is still hilarious), this still doesn’t quite feel like it’s worth banning yet. I mean it’s definitely borderline broken; it doesn’t have the sheer lethal power of Daunt, but it makes up for it by being much faster. But it’s much less likely to just click a button and watch something drop like Daunt is, and therefore easier to play around. And despite its respectable Speed and the fun it can have with moves like Obstruct, it’s not actually that hard to force out offensively. It also still struggles to reliably break through things like Hippo and Rhyperior. While Taunt improves the Hippo matchup inordinately it still requires prediction, as a Hippo EQing on the Taunt will win the 1v1.

Basically I think that Goon might be broken, but it’s the kind of thing I’d prefer to wait on. I’d like to see how it continues to do with Daunt and Gar gone (assuming we ban those), and if it remains super borderline, I wouldn’t even mind waiting until post-beta to give it a public test instead of giving it the boot in beta.

As for some other interesting things…

:passimian:

Not a ton to say about it but Passim has become one of my favorite scarfers in this meta. Strong, surprisingly good physical bulk, access to Knock is wonderful and Defiant is especially great for screwing with things like Obstruct Goon or webs.

:sirfetch’d:

One of my favorite breakers. Pak already touched on this in his post but I think its biggest problem is really just that Crawdaunt outclasses basically every other slowish physical breaker. If Daunt goes, this will probably become my go-to choice. Scrappy CC from 405 Attack is just amazing and is great at pressuring any team that lacks Geezing or fully pdef Hippo.

:reuniclus:

Absolutely filthy, especially alongside the aforementioned SpexGar to force poison on Umbreon.

:xatu:

Somehow even filthier than Reuniclus. Teleport is an absurd move. Teleport + Magic Bounce is an even more absurd combo, letting you come in for free on basically every passive ‘mon and safely bring in your breaker. Teleport + Magic Bounce + Screens or Tailwind is just excessive.

:doublade:

Still the best ‘mon outside of the broken Goon/Daunt/Gar gang.

:duraludon:

Still not a huge fan, but I’ve been messing around with an LO Draco/Steel Beam/Thunder/Rocks set on a Spikes offense that’s pretty fun. Suiciding with Steel Beam is a nice way to mess with spinners/foggers.

:haxorus:

CB and DD sets are both super dangerous and deserve more attention.

:rhyperior: :hippowdon: :mamoswine:

I hate it but these are pretty much the only reliable rockers at the moment. Rhyp is probably the best of the bunch overall. You can run a couple of other more niche options (Duraludon, Runerigus and Bronzong are probably the most reliable of the niche options), but those are pretty much the big three. Bronzong would be pretty good if it got Toxic (it loves Pursuit being gone) but without it, anything with even a little bit of bulk just comes in for free. If I could change one thing about the meta, it would be our limited selection of viable rockers.

:noivern:

Best defogger and just a great ‘mon in general. Boots + Roost + that Speed tier and decent defensive typing gives it lots of opportunities to come in and do its thing despite the fact that it’s forced out by two of the most common rockers in the tier. It’s also good beyond just the Defog set. LO is a serious pain for a lot of teams to deal with, and Pak’s Taunt Noivern definitely thumped me a couple of times on the ladder.

:milotic: :vaporeon: :mantine:

Would it still be UU without bulky waters? I feel like there’s a Vaporeon renaissance happening or something because lately I’ve been seeing it everywhere. All three of these really love Toxic’s heavily reduced distribution. I still mostly prefer Milotic or Mantine, but all three are definitely good right now.
 

TSR

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I suppose it's about time for me to write my obligatory thesis on this tier as well; though rather than rambling on about all the borked mons which everyone else has covered to a fair extent I'll take some time to thumb through some cool stuff no one seems to be talking about. Yea Crawdaunt Gengar are absolutely stupid right now and can both cleave anything in half with the right prediction for Craw / setup fodder for Gar. I might be throwing an odd opinion out here but I find Obstagoon to be a (not-so) distant third when discussing the trifecta of brokens. Might be some messy thoughts incoming as I wanna get on to the rest of my post quickly. Anyway, an easy parallel to draw is the effectiveness of Flame Orb Heracross in the past gen. Right now I'd probably be more in favor of a ban if I were given a choice seeing as the tier is super unstable and not having to deal with super powerful wallbreakers when building and playing always sounds nice, as we could possibly reintroduce it to the tier at a later point, especially as the old mons get put back in the game, potentially giving it a more contestable niche in the tier. Same goes for Gengar and Daunt of course, but for now they seem more blatantly crazy (and less easy to adapt to) than the goon currently. Obstagoon when comparing it to the other Guts breakers we've seen is pretty weak in comparison as well, with a big gap away from Heracross and Conk's insane attack stats. The drop in power outside of STAB on Facade and Knock Off has been fairly noticeable to me in practice, especially with its CC that it has to use to really dent stuff like Rhyperior and Steelix dropping its decent defenses and making it more vulnerable to a big hit. It also has the classic problem shared with Heracross of being worn down quickly (the thing that set Conk far above these two was the same basic breaking tools alongside an unfairly strong STAB move that helped it recover and a useful priority move as well to kind of get around the 'hit it til it dies' way of playing around it) and thus relying on somewhat exploitable mons such our current SwSh lineup of non Regen wish passers who all lost Toxic and other utility so they can't get around their passive nature as easily. The most noteworthy anti-defense mons have always been those than can both bust holes while also managing to keep themselves healthy to get on the field and put in work multiple times, which is just something Obstagoon simply lacks at the time of me writing this. I will admit that the unintentional buffing off Knock Off via no z moves or megas is a big plus for it though as it basically always manages to do something with a single attack. Not to mention as its noticeably higher bulk and speed than most breaker mons in general; meaning it tends to get itself on the field with more openings than Heracross, despite its attacks not stinging as much with every blow. Tl;dr - I find Obstagoon as the obvious third most scary thing to go up vs in the current meta we have, but it's "lack" of power is slightly more noticeable since I find it rarely OHKOing things left and right like the other two brokens. Sure it probably needs to go for now if we wanna have a more stable meta, but I'd rather look at it last out of the three just to see if we can possibly adapt to it a little better without having to panic to try to deal with all 3 of them.

So much for making that quick lol
Onto the cool underrated stuff. I'm gonna put it in a compendium type thing so the incoming walls of text are a bit easier on the eyes. Yes these are in order that they appear scrolling through the teambuilder; I don't exactly have outstanding teams as examples of every single mon listed here so hopefully you can take something away on your own and use them a bit since I can't do everything. Apologies for not having a sexy ladder peak like Pak, I've had a single decent laddering session on the alt 'setting off wind' before learning of the giant new mon patches, and combined with me managing to embarass myself in LTPL these past few weeks, motivation to grind out games has been on the decline.

I'll also take a few words to touch on some stuff that was already brought up: hogg's right, Reuniclus is nasty and can really thrive in the general lower power level, especially if its main demons (the brokens) get the boot. Stop using cm + acid armor + stored power it's garbage mu fishing trash and it'll get more use out of actually trying to pressure milotic and umbreon. I'll "second" (I told him the gospel) pak's word with galarian Weezing; it's a veritable swiss army knife packing a bunch of strong, high base power offensive coverage as well as a ton of great utility moves whose distributions were specifically nerfed this gen. Definitely one of the best defensive mons in the tier for now.
Since Barraskewda is first up on this list, I might as well talk about a playstyle I've been toying around with: rain offense. Honestly it originated as an attempt to viably use one of my favorite new mons in Drednaw, I realized we had a couple of neat tools to supplement it. While it is admittedly niche thanks to the lack of Drizzle users we have until/if we get Politoed, we have an array of decent Swift Swim users that can be absolutely brutal vs the usual offensive stuff that we've been seeing a lot of, while also being not awful to ladder with seeing as the usually mediocre attempts at stall teams are few and far between so far. I might also add that it sucks vs the more established sun teams as they have automatic Drought setters (two even).
A couple samples of rain setters to start:


Xatu @ Damp Rock
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Thunder Wave / filler
- Roost
- Teleport

Xatu fits super well as a setter since it basically takes care of hazard control while letting you stack offensive stuff to better abuse the weather. Teleport is also incredible now, as it lets you pivot out safely and bring in your big hitters. Not much more to say other than an attack might be nice if you dont wanna go with twave, but I've found it nice to screw things like polteageist and noivern if you ever in an endgame where you cant just throw out rain.

Sableye @ Eject Button
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off / Foul Play / Night Shade
- Encore
- Rain Dance
- Recover

Another good tm setter, I prefer using it to set the first rain of the game with the button switching it out and bringing a rain abuser safely, Encore to stop dangerous setup mons if need be yada yada.
Others:

Those are the most viable from my experience, though some other options include: Bronzong or Obstagoon's flex moveslot, things like Sash Spikes Glalie/Qwilfish/Accelgor leads, Whimsicott, as well as Rain Dance 3 atk Mantine or Ludicolo.

now for some abusers:

Barraskewda @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab / Ice Fang
- Aqua Jet

Should be self explanatory. Super strong and fast mon with great flexible coverage, even without any rain. Maybe consider Protect > jet because Durant's First Impression is broken (more on that later).

Mantine @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Hurricane
- Air Slash

Ludicolo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam

same as above, Ludicolo has some pretty great coverage too so consider LO > specs as well as possibly teching Rain Dance to fit another setter, as well as Protect for broken Durant. Mantine can run Ice beam but I like Air Slash as it can manage to do some serious damage to sun teams with Specs (mostly the sun sweepers / setters) instead of missing like Hurricane will.

Drednaw @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Liquidation
- Superpower

another generic physical rain abuser, brings rocks to the table if you want it to as well. pretty much 100% outclasses seaking offensively. Qwilfish with a similar set / spikes can also be neat.

lastly, some non swift swim rain abusers and glue mons I'll list off quickly:

Rotom forms,Noivern, Heliolisk, Toxicroak, Crawdaunt, Inteleon, and Araquanid should all be fairly self explanitory. Special mention to Cramorant even though its overall garbage, because both of its STABs benefit greatly from rain and that Gulp Missile ability can be suuuuuuuuuuuuuuper annoying even if no one wants to admit it. Steelix and Ferroseed are some nice steels that can go along with rain, since they like the weakening of fire moves, though the lack of hidden powers makes this less relevant since the fire moves you see now are stronger that 60 base power. Ferro in particular might seem silly, but it can abuse two of the most annoying things to these teams, Milotic and Mantine, for multiple layers of hazards. Rhyperior is also nice to have a decent check for opposing Noivern. Durant is also good at murdering dangerous setup sweepers and never hurts a teams offensive synergy.


Centiskorch @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Fire Lash
- Leech Life
- Power Whip

Like how I mentioned above in my Obstagoon rambling, things that come in and out and punish defensive stuff while managing to stick around are the kinda mons that tend to be the best picks vs those teams. So with that, enter Coil Centiskorch. While its not super broken or anything, its pretty damn bulky and it cant be neutralized with rocks thanks to the boots so its not completely awful outside of stall / fat balance matchups. Boosting the power of its Leech Lifes in turn restores more HP while its strong Fire Lashes punish your opponent pretty hard for trying to passively dance around it with Mantine / Hippo and the crew. In the stall mu you can muscle past the unaware Pyuku or Quag pretty easily too and keep yourself healthy with meaty Leech Life recovery. Sucks for it with all the Noivern running around, but I see it cementing itself a decent niche of cleaving defensive cores in the future.


Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- First Impression
- Crunch / Rock Slide / X-Scissor / Thunder Fang
- Superpower

More people should be talking about this thing. In a tier of crazy offensive mons and random setup sweepers snapping entire teams in half with the right matchup, durant steps up to the plate. I can't stress how good it is to pack this mon and always feel like you have an out vs stuff like Polteageist, DD Haxorus or Flygon rolling up on you. Yea missing because of Hustle sucks but its other coverage is boosted making an insane offensive threat in itself. Coupled with 109 base speed it's gonna be able to cause some damage at the very least. Its STABs combined with Superpower for coverage is amazing, and it can further boost its coverage by running Rock Slide for Noiverns that think they're slick, Thunder Fang to oblliterate Mantines, as well as outdamage Milotic and Jellicent's recover stalling attempts. Crunch is the move for best steel type Doublade, and X-Scissor is a decent option if you want a bug STAB to click if you stay in multiple turns. I highly recommend anyone reading this throwing this on as offensive glue on just about any team, pair it with Spikes and watch it trample 90% of the shit slower than it. Hot take but it's actually a top 5 mon in the meta (when it hits).


Noivern @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- U-turn

Boots Noivern is nice and all but the extra power from specs is also super good at pushing its matchup vs offense through the roof. One of the few mons that I've actually managed to use extensively thus far and one of its best traits is that it always gets multiple easy kills vs any of the cheesy hyper offense styles without fail. Ignoring Webs, Spikes, and Screens all in one mon is incredible and with the right prediction it'll use its speed and boosted power to rob said HO team of a couple mons just by being on your team. U-turning off of its bulkiest checks like Rhyperior, Milotic, and Vaporeon is also nice.


Alcremie (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Mystical Fire
- Recover

Alcremie (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sweet Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 236 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Mystical Fire / Fling
- Aromatherapy
- Recover

Good-ish stand in for Florges and Sylveon while they're away. Hogg at some point posted about Alcremie before, but I'd like to stress that its one of the few mons out there that can take an onslaught of Hurricanes from Noivern while not getting fucked up by Taunt thanks to how godly Aroma Veil is. I've found Mystical Fire to be more consistent as a 4th move on this thing since it can dent Steels like Doublade, Copperajah, or Steelix that would fuck up sets with Aromatherapy or Acid Armor. Can also dumpster stuff like Reuniclus in the 1v1 with it. Not to say Aromatherapy is bad, I just find it better to commit the set to utility if you're gonna use it. I was attempting to build a stall team during the Kommo-o meta with the Sdef Alcremie at the bottom here and found it to be a decent way of tanking special clanger since it usually wouldn't get a 2nd chance to set up again if you could stop it. As always, Trick users like Indeedee and Rotom-Mow are super annoying since we have no way to block a debilitating Scarf getting tacked onto an important wall. Inspired by Pearl's masterful wielding of ORAS PU stall, I chose this as a mon that could potentiall fufill its role while also being able to absorb scarfs and get rid of them when they could. Mystical Fire is better overall of course, but Fling is a decent option if you can fit it. Wouldnt recommend stall at all right now as Crawdaunt will require you to predict around it perfectly every turn or die, but I think this will be a decent pick for balance teams until we get more fairies.


Sigilyph @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Psycho Shift
- Cosmic Power
- Roost

LO sets are neat too but I tried adding this to said stall team from earlier as a wincon of sorts. This set saw some fishery usage in the later stages of NU last gen and with the lower Knock Off distribution and complete lack of Pursuit, I figured it could maybe get some mileage out of this set. Had to find a way to spread Toxic with it losing the move itself, but luckily I'm an ORAS RU connoisseur and remembered it got Psycho Shift. Had a game on ladder of me sweeping with it completely and reflecting back on it I probably shoulda saved the replay a la demonstration but it can get frustrating to take out if you're not prepared for it, or at worst spread a couple poisons around to limit the capabilities of scary offensive mons. We should get around to trying tinted lens as well.

And with that, I've run out of mons to really focus on. So far the meta's been a mess but pretty fun to play and discover new stuff in. Sure you gotta overprep for the brokens and hope you can outplay them, but its pretty fresh and always nice to finally step away from SM which I had problems with but that's a story for a different day. I'll end off the same way the posts above me do and list off some stuff that either bothers me or I think could be cool but havent tried enough to be sure.

  • everyone should use Galarian Weezing
  • everyone should use Durant
  • Chandelure is probably neat again
  • Copperajah is good. I've found the secret to using it despite its poor defenses is to use the scroller to move its HP EVs to 252, then go from there. It's got a move to slap just about any check to it but I still gotta play around with Sheer Force LO sometime.
  • regular Rotom walls Diggersby change my mind
  • Scarf Gardevoir is nice even with Indeedee around, HW is not to be overlooked and reverse sweeping the future dominant manual rain teams via Trace is amazing
  • Ferroseed + Jellicent is unironically viable just to constantly remind me of my least favorite part of SM PU. For real, most hazard removers suck vs Seed and/or Jellicent, they can abuse the shit out of stuff like Avalugg / Milotic / Hippo / Rhyperior and then you can watch your Noivern or Obstagoon clean up the mess they leave.
  • Rillaboom probably is hot, decent speed tier and is super strong with choice items, gets SD + a speed dropping move, Knock Off, U-turn, Drain Punch, Taunt, Leech Seed. I also smashed a UU-ish team in randbats with Sub Bulk up js
  • Specs is probably the best Duraludon, the minute you try to use it for anything remotely defensive it will disappoint you
  • CB Flapple might be almost cool since a lot of Steel types suck and it hits like a truck
  • Pak I'm sorry for giving tbma Frosmoth Sun when i was drinking
  • I've seen goony teams with First Impression Trapinch to trap shit like Weavile and Drapion. While I'm sure its terrible, I'm also 90% sure someone will manage to ruin Arena Trap in this tier and we'll have to unironically stop Trapinch or Diglett from wreaking havoc in the future.
  • Obstruct Obstagoon + Tspikes might be a necessity for every player to have in their teambuilder
 

TDK

is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
UU Leader
Hey all,

The UU Council is going to be voting on Crawdaunt, Gengar, and Obstagoon.

:Crawdaunt:
With the departure of Kommo-O, nothing in the tier has the typing or the bulk to switch into the lobster anymore. 5 fully evolved Pokemon are capable of resisting both of its STABs; Shiinotic, Whimsicott, Shiftry, Toxicroak (thanks to Dry Skin), and Crawdaunt itself. The bulkiest of these Pokemon is... Crawdaunt itself, which still takes 41.2-48.4% from Adamant CB Crabhammer. Point is: Crawdaunt has no switchins. Its incredible power, thanks to Adaptability, alongside its great offensive typing, and access to priority, all allow Crawdaunt to feast on this metagame. With virtually no means of switching into this Pokemon, the counterplay is limited to sacrifice a Pokemon and bring in something faster, or rely on Innards Out Pyukumuku to trade. Crawdaunt also has the ability to forgo the immediate boost from Choice Band, running Life Orb to switch moves for a slight cut in power, as well as the ability to run a 4th move to help Crawdaunt further; Swords Dance, Close Combat, or even Dragon Dance can let Crawdaunt go in even more than before. Most importantly about Crawdaunt is that its most frequently clicked STAB is Knock Off. In this metagame, Knock Off is practically the best possible attack; there are very few viable Dark resists, and none of them appreciate losing their items. Overall, even with Crawdaunts incredible power, its slow and not very bulky. It is very easily revenge killed by the vast multitude of threats. Crawdaunt, while on paper it seems unbeatable, really is mostly a hit-and-run Pokemon in this metagame, where it immediately switches out after attacking.

:Gengar:
Gengar, in this metagame, is incredibly fast and powerful. With Pursuit no longer existing, Gengar fears nothing, as it is capable of beating any type of team, no matter what is thrown at it. Even teams with Umbreon can lose to Gengar, as Gengar can potentially run Specs + Sludge Bomb, thus fish for a poison and utterly cripple Umbreon as well as Trick its Specs away, limiting Umbreon greatly. The popularity of Drapion as of late speaks volumes to how much of a commodity Ghost resists are in this metagame, as things like Umbreon are simply too passive is prone to Toxic Spikes and Obstagoon is simply not a good answer to Gengar, or any Ghost-type for that matter. Gengar also now has access to Nasty Plot, which is an absolutely killer set, only the aforementioned Umbreon and Drapion are able to combat it after a boost, otherwise relying on Choice Scarf Pokemon. Gengar, despite being one of the centralizing forces in this metagame, has its faults. The Pokemon I've mentioned before are common for a reason; because they beat Gengar. Gengar is not something that can't be switched into, it is not something that has no counters, and it is not something that is too fast to revenge kill.

:Obstagoon:
Obstagoon is a threat. Only 0.026% usage off of being OU in the last month of usage stats, Obstagoon is practically the face of UU as it currently stands. While its potent sets are limited to only running Flame Orb, Obstagoon has an absurdly useful movepool and the ability to cripple or bypass the vast majority of would-be counters. Taunt, Switcheroo, Bulk Up, Obstruct, Close Combat, and Parting Shot all are viable options to run alongside Facade + Knock Off. Obstagoon has an insane amount of versatility for a Pokemon that virtually always runs the same set, just with different filler moves tacked on. Obstagoon, while not as immediately potent as Crawdaunt, is virtually unwallable. Thanks to its speed tier, bulk, typing, and ability, Obstagoon can take on the majority of the tier and deal massive damage with its STABs. Having access to Knock Off off of incredible power in this metagame is killer; removing Leftovers or other utility items can open holes for Obstagoon or another Pokemon to win later. People have even found use of running Choice Scarf, as it has access to Defiant to punish Defogs, as well as Switcheroo and Parting Shot, to making it even more effective. However, with all this in mind, Obstagoon is not unbeatable. It's not fast enough to be impossible to revenge kill, an absurd amount of Pokemon can use Body Press with their high defenses to take it on, and Obstagoon isn't that strong for a Pokemon firing off Guts boosted Facades. While it certainly is extremely strong, it's no Ursaring; the majority of this Pokemons viability comes from its ability coupled with the other tools it has.


The Council will be discussing and voting on these Pokemon today and tomorrow. We will be using the same Rotating Council as last time. Votes must be submitted by tomorrow (Jan 12th) night at 11:59 pm GMT-5. In the meantime, please provide any opinions or thoughts you may have on the Pokemon up for vote or about the metagame as a whole.
 
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i don't really have much to say that hasn't already been covered re: the 3 suspects. i think all of them should get the boot for reasons already made in previous posts. most people seem to be in consensus that crawdaunt is broken, though gengar / goon have some reasonable arguments for not getting qb'd. with the recent announcement of dlc i think that getting the tier in a stable state asap is top priority so qb now with the possibility of a retest later on seems like the best option to me :blobshrug:

some cool stuff i've been using:

:hippowdon: :drednaw:
was building with hippo and wanted something to pressure noivern outside of ice beam waters when i came across the turtle. with sand up its able to switch in on every noivern set (except specs ig) and start breaking stuff. i've gone back and forth between cb and lefties sd but i think both are effective options atm. while its speed tier isn't super amazing or anything its enough to get the jump on bulky shit so it gets the job done. getting psuedo stab on crunch because of strong jaw is nice as the tier doesn't have many bulky dark resists which makes it a solid midground on the band set. dont really want to post a wall of calcs but clicking the right move w/ cb 2hko's most physdef fatmons (you need rocks up to kill geezing). doublade drops to crunch, bulky waters to edge, you get the idea. slightly outclassed by crawdaunt rn but checking noivern is a good niche given it's the most common defogger.

:vanilluxe:
a couple other people have mentioned this mon but its usage is still criminally low for how effective of a breaker it is. our steels outside of zong and steelvally (which can struggle long term with hail chip + hazards) don't switch into blizzard well and freeze dry lets it bypass teams using a bulky water as the ice resist. on top of that access to taunt and veil lets it support its teammates really well (sidenote: i think full veil teams arent that great rn but its too good of a move to pass up, especially when blizzard + freeze dry is really all the coverage it needs). abuses the noivern + rhyp + water cores that are common rn really well, good mon

:drapion:
i've found myself throwing scarf drap on a lot of teams lately. the defensive utility it offers + tspikes + knock + speed control all in one slot is fantastic role compression and really opens options up for the rest of the team, esp if you want to build something offensively oriented. should gengar go it probably gets somewhat worse but ghosts are still really good regardless so who knows.

other misc stuff:
  • webs are kinda sucky rn with how well geezing / noivern fog on a lot of the tier, though they are annoying to prep for with any other form of ho
  • echoing other ppl's thoughts on roserade passimian and jelli, good mons. jelli gets even better should goon leave too :o
  • barraskewda calcs vs anything that isnt a bulky water are scary but cb has to click the right move vs teams w/ waters every time and lo chips itself into priority / scarfer range. high risk / high reward mon, could prove to be overbearing in the future but rn it seems manageable.
  • vaporeon doesn't die
  • pod is dope
  • metronome araquanid is kinda nice agency agency
game on gamers
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris an Administrator
UU & Tour Head
The UU Council has concluded its vote on the most recent slate, as referenced in TDK's recent post.

CRAWDAUNT :crawdaunt:

WIth a vote of 11 ban to 1 do not ban and 1 abstention, Crawdaunt has been BANNED FROM UU.

GENGAR :gengar:

With a vote of 10 ban to 3 do not ban, Gengar has been BANNED FROM UU.

OBSTAGOON :obstagoon:

With a vote of 7 ban to 6 do not ban, Obstagoon has been BANNED FROM UU.



As for why these Pokemon were banned, please see TDK's post linked above for a good outline. In addition, we have asked all council members who did not post their thoughts on these 'mons in this thread to include a brief reasoning regarding their votes. I'm including the results here.



Crawdaunt is too low risk and high reward than any breaker should be, with its absurdly powerful stabs having no safe defensive counterplay whatsoever besides niche one time switchins like Whimsicott. Its Aqua Jet is strong enough to sweep through weakened offensive teams, and its ludicrously easily time breaking more balanced and defensive teams means it needs to go. Despite its slow speed of 55, common staples like Rhyperior, Weezing, and Umbreon give it ample opportunities to come in, and the threat of Aqua Jet can force switches. With the niche SD Splash Plate set also being able to capitalize on CB's lack of answers, this Pokemon needs to go.

Gengar is another Pokemon I find that way too clicky, with Choice Specs being the main offender. Sludge Bomb's crucial poison chance allows it to muscle through supposed checks like Umbreon and Milotic, or if you aren't wanting to fish (it gets many chances to) there is the option of Trick to severely cripple them right away. Again like Crawdaunt, Nasty Plot can surprise opponents that are playing around a presumed Choice set. I also see the priority argument tossed around a lot with Gengar, but I don't quite get it. It lives many of them from full with Rocks including Doublade's, along with quad resisting First Impression which is one of the more common moves found in the tier. In the absence of Pursuit it just gets too many opportunities to come in and wreck a game.

Obstagoon I am willing to give a more extended test on, while it has a decent speed tier and the highest natural bulk of the breakers, it doesn't have the same instant power to wreck a game like Crawdaunt and to a lesser extent Gengar can. You have to find a turn to activate the Flame Orb if not running Obstruct, must be careful switching into Knock Off, and it is almost never at full health which makes revenge killing it honestly not the hardest thing of the world. Crawdaunt's priority and Gengar's higher speed make them more of an issue in this regard. I find there are enough mons that can comfortably trade with it to not feel entirely helpless vs. it in the builder, and a breaker like Obstagoon can be viewed as a good limiter on the power of defensive teams. It certainly can be suspect tested but I don't think it as quite at the level of a quickban threat.




Thanks to all who voted. Marty The Immortal, please remove Crawdaunt, Gengar and Obstagoon from the UU ladder.
 
With the ban of the top 3 most broken mons, expect the tier to change a bit from what we've seen. I expect webs to not be as prevalent on ladder and fat balance to become actually usable, and no Crawdaunt means that its a lot harder for a single pokemon to break through Gweezing/Fat water/ Rhyperior cores that were already super common. I'm excited to see where this new meta will take us!

Some initial thoughts on just a few mons that stood out as benefactors of the changes:

:Reuniclus: This thing is going to be the next big thing mark my words. It lost three of the best offensive answers to it, which really frees up all of its sets, but most notably the acid armor + cm set which no longer has to worry about being crawdaunt food. All of this adds up to reu becoming a real pain for most teams to deal with and I expect its usage to shoot up.

:Escavalier: Crawdaunt and Obstagoon were far and away the best users of Knock off in the tier and so I think this guy will come in to fill a role of knocker while also checking the incoming reuniclus invasion. It also Matches up well vs hippo balances thanks to an sd or cb boost allowing it to 2shot both hippo and the fat water that will be on those archetypes
+2 56+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 246-291 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 213-252 (50.7 - 60%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 277-327 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 56+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 322-379 (81.7 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:Sigilyph: Just as reuniclus will benefit from the departure of strong knockers, so will sig. Sig sets itself apart from reu thanks to its higher base speed which allows it to take on a cleaning role more efficiently for offense teams, as well as its access to fire coverage which provides it a more reliable way of chipping steels like copperaj and escavalier.

Edit: It has recently come to my attention that knock off is not available on pangoro until pokemon home, so I deleted its mention. I still think it has limited switch ins tho
 
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1578895852245.png
It's tea time everybody! Tea time! Any tea-ers?
Nah but really I feel that these boys being gone is gonna open this thing up to sweep quite a bit easier. But other than that fat is going to rule and we'll probably be seeing a pretty big rise in Diggersby to try to stop that. I'm cool with it.
 
TL:DR: Goon ban is great, Daunt ban was a mistake, Gengar ban wasn't necessary.

Goon was too powerful because it hit almost as hard as Daunt, while posessing an infinitely better speed tier and much better bulk, meaning it was much harder to RK effectively while also being hard to stop defensively (it could nab 2hkos or 3hkos on a lot of stuff while not being ohkod in return). It was almost impossible to KO it with an uninvested move that wasn't body press. Banning it was a great decision.

The only advantage Daunt has over Goon when it comes to dismantling fat teams is hitting Hippo SE, since Hippo is something people like using to blanket check half the physical attackers and some special ones in the meta. Which should be taken as indication that Hippo is broken - it blanket checks too many things because of its overinflated stats (compared to the rest of the tier) and slack off. Crawdaunt doesn't perform as well vs offense as Goon does - its only utility is spamming AJet, whereas Goon is fat enough to live pretty much any non SE hit and KO in return vs frail offensive mons. On the topic of AJet, getting swept by band AJet when playing offense is a teambuilding mistake as usually that's the only move Daunt gets to click vs you anyway, so just include something that takes advantage of it being locked into AJet. If we're talking lategame scenarios where mons are weakened enough that AJet can sweep that's a game that's practically over anyway and the cleanup could likely be done by something else just as well. I think having mons like Daunt that pressure fat teams is healthy as it prevents the ladder from degenerating into 200 turn balance/stall fests - which is why i think banning it was a mistake - but that might just be me.

I can understand the Gar ban, but since fat teams usually run Umb + Hippo (or Rhyperior) that's 2 obstacles that it has to overcome before doing anything substantial. And these 2 aren't balance/semistall staples because of Gengar's omnipresence but because they are better at the role they perform than pretty much anything else in the tier. OTOH Gengar does have a very nice speed tier for terrorising offensive builds I can't deny that. Is that reason enough for a ban? I'd lean towards no but I can see why others would say yes.
 
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Last thing Crawdaunt, Gengar and Obstagoon saw from us:




I'd like to share some thoughts now that those three are gone.

Psychic-Types really benefit from all of the bans but most important from the Dark-Types. Like Donphantastic mentioned Reuniclus is going to be a pain in the...butt. But there are other cool Psychic-Types besides Reuniclus. and Sigilyph
For example Indeedee-Male has potential to be a great scarfer and revenge-killer. Also I had some pretty fun games with :Orbeetle: <--klick me
Orbeetle is a pretty nice pokemon. I guess some saw aims video about it; I linked it for those who want to watch it later. I used an similar set with Calm Mind + Bug Buzz instead of Iron Defense + Body Press and it paid off really well. The only things it struggles with are Steel-Types in general but with spikes up nothing really wants to take +2 140BP Stored Power. I admit that this one is more of a niche or meme but I had good success.


Hippowdon definitely benefits from Obstagoon being banned. It now can run more SpDef to be a better sponge overall.
Fat teams in general really love Crawdaunt and Obstagoon leave the tier because even if they switch into a Knock Off, its not coming from an Adaptability-Choice Band-boosted 120 base attack. I hope with these gone Claydol gets it rising lol.
I hope tho that we keep some offensive presence to not fall into the Gen7-Stall-Meta again.

I'm again curious what the meta will develop into.
Thanks for reading, have a great day.
 
These bans this gen are gonna let UU be littered with stall team, just like last gen. Every new gen, strong breakers get released, kids crying: "omg Pkm X oneshot my crappy built team so broken" and things get banned. I could understand why Gengar is banned with the absence of Pursuit and to a lesser extend Goon banned since it 2HKO everything in the tier, but have no clue why Craw was banned (with a majority?). Even after web, Crawdawnt is still slower than Ribombee, First Impression is ridiculously common in the tier, it gets OHKO by every neutral special move in the game, and almost impossible to find opportunities to get in. The only reason why the Craw was good was by demolishing stall from spamming Knock Off. With these bans, hope everyone have a good time being 6-0 by cm aa Reuniclus and sash psychic terrain Poltergeist.
 
Hello yes Donny P again with some more thoughts on individual mons after a couple dozen games:

:reuniclus: : I may have overhyped the dual dance set in my previous post. Its inability to do damage until after a boost is notable, and landing the tox on certain mons like umbreon/haze milo is not always guaranteed, esp considering you really need the badly poisoned status to actually beat them.
On the other hand, CM+2 attacks is a lot more consistent and an effective wincon in it's own right. In my experience, being able to actually do damage to darks on switch in is invaluable, especially considering that apart from umbreon they dont really have great spdef.
On that note offensive sets are looking deadly the more I think about it and I plan on testing them soon.

:salazzle: : this thing is the devil incarnate omg. Corrosion is an obnoxious ability thanks to the smaller pool of cleric mons. It's one of the mons that is likely to actually land a tox on umbreon/milo thanks to its status as a high powered fire type. Boots+NP tox and the classic subtect tox both did well in testing.
Here's the team I was using it:
https://pokepast.es/42f51023f6e50eae

:pangoro: : I deleted mentioning it in my previous post since it lost knock, but I decided to use CB anyway to help Combat reuniclus/Doublade spam and I was not disappointed. It has a niche over sirfetchd as a scrappy cc spammer due to darkest lariat being stab so it ignores AA reuni. Use this more kids!

:Doublade: : Still the best mon in UU no questions asked. Checks everything and sweeps offense, what more could you want?

:Noivern: : I used to exclusively use offensive defog boots but have come to appreciate max hp variants with taunt as well. Doing so allows you to not run hurricane as well as check fetchd in a pinch.

That's all I have for now but I look forward to reading y'alls thoughts on the current meta and what yall think will rise as the biggest threats.
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor

Centiskorch @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Fire Lash

Coming from OU, this set can eat up certain threats while doing much better as a true cleaner. Weezing, Avalugg, Frosmoth, Duraludon, Polteageist and more can't really do much to it while it sets up. Fire Lash is awesome neutral coverage that helps with stallbreaking unless you run up against that one asshole with Flash Fire Arcanine or something lol.
 

Amane Misa

ідіот
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Moderator


https://pokepast.es/f1d5dde79db66a89

I made this team and laddered with it. I am posting this because I got #3 and then got haxed and then got tilted to the bottom of the ladder which will probably make me not ladder for a few days. I am also posting this team because I think it showcases a few of the best Pokemon right now in the metagame pretty well.


Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Recover
- Shadow Ball / Trick Room

(TR + Recover was stolen from Donphantastic and I am the mastermind behind 3 attacks + Recover)

I like it more than the defensive-CM sets because it heavily pressures teams without the need for setting up and because it can come in and sit on literally every bulky Water-type. In fact, I believe that offensive Reuniclus sets are better as whole than defensive sets but both offensive and defensive sets are really good so it's hard to go wrong with Reuniclus.
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 212-251 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Drapion: 229-270 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



I saw a lot of guys from the council chat talking about it and I was very skeptic but I started to really like Galarian Weezing after I was introduced to the offensive set.

Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 192 HP / 252 SpA / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Sludge Bomb
- Defog / Toxic Spikes
- Fire Blast

Its coverage is really good and it catches a lot of players off-guard with a super-effective hit. Furthermore, it allows Galarian Weezing to mess a lot with slower teams via Sludge Bomb poisons.

General thoughts about the other 3 standard Pokemon:

- The best Pokemon in the metagame. Absurd physical bulk and decent special bulk, amazing typing, SD, and priority. You don't need more to create the perfect Pokemon that also isn't broken with these.

- I get why people like Noivern but I think it's overhyped as a whole. It's obviously good but its bulk is pretty underwhelming for a pivot and it has the 4MSS; you want it to get the much coverage you can out of Noivern but you also really wanna fit utility options like Taunt, Roost, U-turn, and Defog.

- Great bulk, typing, and ability make Rhyperior the best Stealth Rock setter in my opinion. It usually gives Galarian Weezing a free Defog but Reuniclus is able to generate a free turn to attack on Galarian Weezing so Rhyperior's disabilities against Galarian Weezing can work in your favor if you play correctly.


Cloyster @ Choice Band
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Self-Destruct
- Ice Shard

Big man Cloyster is nowhere near standard, especially not with a Choice Band, but you're gonna have to trust me on this. Its damage output is actually pretty ridiculous; for example, it usually 2HKOes mixed defensive Milotic with Rock Blast from full HP. It also generates a surprising amount of turns against bulky Ground-types like, for example, Rhyperior and Hippowdon. I found Shell Smash pretty hard to make work since it has a lot of troubles sweeping with Doublade everywhere and because of its bad special bulk combined with its below-average typing.

Potential competitions it might face are from Arctovish but Cloyster's damage output is bigger than non-Choice Band Arctovish and Barraskewda is simply not that good :3.

Here are some random thoughts on random Pokemon I wanna share:

- Good Psychic-resists aren't common and I am surprised to not see Choice Specs Espeon on the ladder. It is incredibly hard to switch-into and it is stronger and way faster than Gardevoir.

- Choice Specs Inteleon will not break past Vaporeon or Milotic, but once they're removed it will easily break your opponent's team, especially if you bring it down to Torrent.
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Torrent Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Torrent Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 162-191 (41.1 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

- I faced Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, and Calm Mind + Heavy-Duty Boots and all of the sets were really annoying to deal with. Not only did I have to guess which set it was, but it has great coverage and very high SpA so it almost always killed at least one Pokemon.
 
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This is my first time ever creating a Smogon post so I'm not too confident in what I have to say however there is one mon that I've been using that has been doing great things for me and that mon is Vikavolt

I'm just outside of top 100 on the ladder so I think I have some idea of what I'm talking about
Ladder.PNG

vikavolt.png

Vikavolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 204 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 40 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Rest
- Bug Buzz
- Sleep Talk
RestTalk gives Vikavolt a way of healing while also being able to combat Yawn Eeveelutions Max Sp.Attack Modest makes this thing a real offensive threat being able to combat fully SpDef Umbreon and other waters like Milotic and Araquanid. The 40 speed is to allow it to out-speed 0 speed Hippowdon, 60 speed Rhyperior, and Araquanid. Heavy-Duty-Boots lets me avoid taking huge chip that could put me in range of 2hkos from Milotic's scald for example
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 184 SpD Rhyperior: 216-255 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 204 HP / 8 Def Vikavolt: 61-73 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Vikavolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Milotic: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 402-474 (94.8 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 229-271 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Non-stone edge variants of Hippowdon cannot touch Vikavolt as well so it'd either be forced to switch out or whirlwind/roar and while the Obstagoon ban does allow it to run more SpDef, it still needs to invest in 160 SpDef to technically get out of the 2hko
252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Hippowdon: 187-222 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I can pull up more calcs but I think the point is established. Bug/ Electric is a very threatening offensive typing versus this meta. Once this thing gets Roost again, I think it'll be more effective at what it does for me. It'll also be able to have a 4th move slot for things like Sticky Web, Volt Switch, or even keeping Sleep Talk if Yawn becomes too prevalent.
 
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Moutemoute

Moot-Moot
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Hey... the tier is definitively better and much more balanced after the bans, I enjoy the current metagame and I do believe we did a good job so far.


I've been using quite a lot Drapion and this Pokemon is really nice as an offensive pivot thanks to its typing which allows it to check Polteageist, Reuniclus, Espeon and Indeedee + Gardevoir to a lesser extent. T-Spikes are just amazing in this metagame and I believe it's pretty hard to build a team without a Poison-type or a Pokemon which is able to remove those Entry Hazards without being annoyed by them (RIP non Heavy-Duty Boots spinner). Drapion is overall a great staple atm.


Not gonna lie I was pretty worried about this dude after the last bans since Goon/Gengar/Crawdaunt were 3 good checks to Reuniclus.. but overall I think Reuniclus is fine. It's a really good Pokemon but I firmly believe that people found things to deal with it such as Taunt Drapion or Bulky Water-type with Haze (Mantine / Milotic / Vaporeon). Like Amane Misa, I believe that offensive Reuniclus is way better than defensive ones in the current metagame. I've been using a lot Recover + 3 attacks and it's a really nice tool overall which is able to sponge some hits while being able to punish super hard a lot of offensive threats but also defensive ones with a bit of support (:wink: T-Spikes :wink:)..



Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

This is the set I've been using recently. 60 EVs en speed allow Reuniclus to outspeed 16 speed Doublade which is always nice if you want to lend a Shadow Ball on it. I'm still not sure of the need of Focus Blast.. Maybe Future Sigh ? Or Thunder to nuke Mantine ? Well I don't know yet..


I'm a huge fan of Vaporeon right now. Water Absorb + Wish is more than a niche and I actually prefer it to Umbreon atm. Vaporeon can also use something else instead of Yawn like Haze or Ice Beam which is imo its best filler in order to punish Noivern, Rotom-Mow, Flygon etc.. Great staple for balanced teams and a really nice check to threats such as Inteleon or Barraskewda.


God damn I hate this mon. It's so hard to switch on Diggersby and it doesn't have a lot of things which can handle its hits (phys def Bronzong is probably its best answer). CB hits like a damn truck, Scarf can be really annoying and SD punish you if you want to switch vs it. Definitively a Pokemon which should beware.


I think Heliolisk is really nice atm. Volt-Switch + Water-type immunity + the fact that it can punish Ground-type is really cool and useful. I've been using Boots + Glare and while I don't think it's its best set, it was nice to spraid paralysis everywhere and then pivot.
 
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Twilight

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I'm loving UU in its current state. After playing a decent amount of ladder games I have run into more BO and Balance teams, while the offensive playstyles like Webs and Screens have fallen off a lot more in usage. These types of HO have felt rather inconsistent from experience after Obstagoon, Crawdaunt, and Gengar got banned. I don't think these 3 were the only reason these types of teams were so viable but I've seen very few of them on ladder and feel it has probably been rather unexplored since. BO and Balance teams have definitely taken up the role as the more common and consistent teams to run on ladder right now, especially with how good Weezing, Hippo, Umbreon, etc. are. I just wanted to highlight some cool things right now.


Sigilyph @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave
- Energy Ball
- Roost

There has been a lot of discussion on Reuniclus, which is to be expected, but I think Sigilyph is really nice rn. Being one of the faster Psychic-types in the tier that is unaffected by Stealth Rock and Toxic/Spikes is really nice for it. Sigi has an absurd amount of coverage options to choose from and outpacing every Fighting-type in the tier gives it a large adv over the others. Unlike Indeedee it isn't forced to pretty much carry a Choice Specs to be relevant, which gives it room for unpredictability. Personally, I prefer running 3 Atks + Roost but CM sets are viable and others have spoken on some cool Toxic/Flame Orb gimmicks.


Machamp @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Darkest Lariet
- Facade
- Heavy Slam

This a Fighting-type I have been exploring as of late and I believe it has a decent amount of viability. It isn't that easy to pivot into Machamp with its fairly spammable combination of CC and Facade, which leaves only Doublade as a relatively safe pivot. However, Machamp is one of the few Fighting-types to still have access to Knock Off this gen so Doublade doesn't want to come in at the risk of losing its much-needed Eviolite. It's strong enough to 2HKO Max Def Hippowdon after rocks and with Heavy Slam it can OHKO offensive Galarian Weezing and a high chance to OHKO defensive Weezing after rocks. Machamp still struggles in some aspects to compete with the 6 other Fighting-types in the tier but I think it is definitely worth trying out.

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 274-324 (82 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery


Roserade @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder / Synthesis
- Toxic Spikes / Spikes

Roserade is amazing right now with how easily it breaks through and abuses common cores like Weezing + Rhyperior + bulky Water. It's a grounded Poison, which is valued on both BO and Balance teams with it also being able to set Spikes and T-Spikes. Not many Pokemon switch into its STAB combination because Doublade isn't a reliable pivot when it takes 50% from LO Leaf Storm. SpD Drapion is the most consistent pivot aside from less common Pokemon like Bronzong, but all of these can be punished with Sleep Powder.


Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 196 HP / 140 Def / 152 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam / Facade
- Darkest Lariat / Earthquake / Sleep Talk
- Rest

Snorlax is fairly underrated rn with how few I've seen on ladder. Snorlax benefits a lot from Daunt and Goon going and in turn checks these Psychic-types that are being spammed so much. Curse + Darkest Lariet lets it deal with them fairly easily aside from the case of some offensive Reuniclus sets. It is also one of the best responses to Chandelure that is running around a lot right now. The biggest things that hurt Snorlax are how common Trick users are right now, Fighting-type spam, and Berries getting nerfed hard this gen. However, if you play smart around these Trick users and support it well it will put in a lot of work.


I still think this Pokemon is stupid..

I pretty much agree with most of the above posts on other good Pokemon in the metagame.
 

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