np SS UU Stage 1 - Here Comes The Sun (Dracozolt banned)

TDK

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UU Beta is now here! During this phase, UU is going to be rapidly changing and very volatile. The Council will be conducing internal votes with many probable quickbans to get a stable tier going. Everything that gets quickbanned during this phase will be looked into again at a later time, but right now, the primary objective is to form a stable and playable metagame.

Aegislash moved from New to OU
Bisharp moved from New to OU
Cinderace moved from New to OU
Clefable moved from New to OU
Conkeldurr moved from New to OU
Corsola-Galar moved from LC Uber to OU
Corviknight moved from New to OU
Darmanitan-Galar moved from New to OU
Ditto moved from New to OU
Dracovish moved from New to OU
Dracozolt moved from New to OU
Dragapult moved from New to OU
Dugtrio moved from New to OU
Excadrill moved from New to OU
Ferrothorn moved from New to OU
Grimmsnarl moved from New to OU
Gyarados moved from New to OU
Hatterene moved from New to OU
Hydreigon moved from New to OU
Kommo-o moved from New to OU
Mandibuzz moved from New to OU
Mew moved from New to OU
Mimikyu moved from New to OU
Pelipper moved from New to OU
Rotom-Heat moved from New to OU
Rotom-Wash moved from New to OU
Seismitoad moved from New to OU
Sylveon moved from New to OU
Togekiss moved from New to OU
Toxapex moved from New to OU
Toxtricity moved from New to OU
Tyranitar moved from New to OU


 

Twilight

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As I've played this tier more and more I've begun to agree with a lot of people about how bad the state of it is right now. The amount of braindead offenses going around gets pretty unfun to play against every other game or even multiple times in a row. I don't think this is because ladder is just copying a trend but simply that this tier is just littered with far too many overbearing threats. I'm glad we are in Beta so that we can weed some of them out, so I wanted to make this post to bring forward some of the issues in my eyes. Pretty much everything I want to highlight is what I believe to be dumb or at least very unhealthy for the tier.


My main issue with Hawlucha is that it's just too consistent at beating teams once its best check being Doublade is gone. The only other Pokemon that has come remotely close to taking it on well has been Galarian Weezing as it survives a +2 Brave Bird and then you have something like Hippowdon that can eat and Whirlwind it out. It's not like it has no way to get past these Pokemon either as Throat Chop lets it deal with Doublade, Substitute can be annoying for Weezing, and Taunt shuts Hippo down. Obviously we have the Unaware Pokemon but again Pyukumuku pretty much needs to run Counter to not get fucked by Taunt Lucha. All of our tier's Choice Scarf users get outpaced by Unburden Lucha and it doesn't even have to run max Speed to do this. I know this Pokemon has only been out for 3 days but if you aren't running Doublade or Quagsire dealing with it is rough, especially with how strong Indeedee + Lucha is.


I'm not going to go out of my way to talk about Goon again because it has already been expressed enough by the community on how dumb this Pokemon is lol. It has zero real defensive counterplay and the few walls capable of taking a hit like Avalugg, Rhyperior, Hippowdon etc. can all lose through Knock Off taking their items away and the utility of Obstruct, Taunt, or Switcheroo.


Again, another Pokemon I won't elaborate on for similar reasons to Goon as it was discussed enough in the last metagame thread. I do think Gengar is pretty ridiculous for the tier but I actually don't think it is the first Pokemon I'd want out of the tier in all fairness. I'd consider Hawlucha and Obstagoon to be a lot worse to deal with. From experience, it seems Choice Scarf and Specs Gengar, have become a lot better/popular but the fact that Nasty Plot sets can rip through all of its defensive checks like Umbreon and SpD Drapion really puts it over the top for me.


Crawdaunt got a lot stronger with Kommo-o leaving so it's now an extremely good and consistent wallbreaker. Nothing in the tier is capable of walling it unless you are using like full Phys Def Whimsicott. Avalugg becomes the next best switchin but if it takes a Knock Off it loses its boots, meaning it then gets 2HKO'd by CB Crabhammer after SR. Our Water Absorb Pokemon in Vaporeon and Mantine can deter it from clicking Crabhammer but neither of them take a Knock Off well at all. I've found that you can play around Crawdaunt pretty well offensively because of its bad Speed and thus trade blows essentially, but when it comes to using defensive teams its been a huge boon to deal with. I don't know if this Mon is deserving of a Quick Ban but I think it is something that should be on the council's mind during/exiting Beta (Idk if we do suspects in Beta or just quickbans).


Diggersby @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack

Diggersby @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack
- U-turn / Spikes

As far as I know, the only responses to Diggersby are Bronzong and Avalugg as everything else either gets OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by CB Body Slam or Earthquake. Pokemon like Phys Def Weezing, Milotic etc. can't switch into it without dropping next turn so the best way to play around it is through offensively revenge killing it and not letting it in against slower/passive Pokemon. Which, let's be real is no easy feat with it having a pretty decent Speed tier and STAB Huge Power boosted Quick Attack. I've mainly seen CB sets on ladder but it shouldn't be ignored that it can also pull off an SD set extremely well, making it even harder for offensive responses to deal with it as they can't take a Quick Attack anymore. Diggersby is just a hilariously strong breaker and I do hope the council discusses and takes a look at it.


Personally I think these Pokemon could deserve a look at, at some point anyway. Though if they did I think it should be through a Suspect test. I don't think these two are on the same level as the above Pokemon but they are both really strong rn. It's pretty funny how Haxorus's best check is Avalugg (This Pokemon deadass walls everything) because our bulky Fairy-types drop to it after one Dragon Dance. With the loss of Z-Moves Haxorus now goes back to using items like Life Orb or Lum Berry, the former letting it rip through its defensive checks.
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alcremie: 322-380 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 296-351 (88.6 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

We lost a lot of defensive Steel-types this gen also, with Doublade being the bulkiest/best one to check it unless you are using Steelix. This pretty much makes Ice Shard and faster Choice Scarfers the best ways to beat it. There are still plenty of ways to offensively restrict if from setting up, such as entry hazards + chip damage but I just want to bring it to people's attention, as I have found it to be a pretty formidable Pokemon right now.

Mamoswine is probably a pretty controversial one but I have found it to be pretty difficult to deal with and in quite a lot of games overbearing when using it. Unlike the aforementioned Pokemon, I at least believe Mamoswine has more counterplay to work around it, like with some of our Defensive Water-types but it's worth noting that full Phys Def Milotic can't switch into EQ without being 2HKO'd after rocks and Mantine running boots makes it more reliant on Roost to keep switching into Mamoswine's Icicle Crash. I still don't retract my previous statement in it being easier to play around but I think it is a Pokemon worth bringing up for discussion and one I'd be keen to hear more thoughts and opinions about. Also, a lot of people are still using Focus Sash Mamoswine, please stop .__.

That's all I want to talk about for now. I would like to see some discussion on some of these Pokemon or others, as we are now in the stage where stuff can be looked at. I also hope that if the council is planning to Quick Ban a/multiple Pokemon, that they take the opportunity to at least encourage discussion here on said Pokemon first or at the very most their reasonings as to why X was banned. Thanks for reading this long post if you did.
 
I actually agree with the majority of what Twilight said above; however, I also feel like adding a bit to some of his points, mostly in the defense of certain pokemon. Because every argument needs both sides heard. Note this isn't me saying 'these pokemon are alright'. It's more me saying how I've dealt with them, or issues I've seen using them myself.

Also I think Hawlucha is bad enough that I'm not even going to play Devil's Advocate and even try and defend it. Hawlucha needs to go.


Obstagoon I'm not actually clear-cut on yet. Firstly; it suffers from 4MMS a bit. Facade takers a turn to turn on; Knock Off only really does something when the enemy has a removable item, and if you're running Obstruct that only leaves a single moveslot. Obstagoon can also be rather difficult to switch in safely. With a x4 weakness to Fighting pretty much any Fighting coverage move on a lure can OHKO it. 90 Base Attack also isn't winning any awards, and Obstagoon is therefor heavily reliant on Guts.

There's also the fact that Obstagoon is really vulnerable to residual damage. Between the damage it is taking from Burn, any other source of residual damage, and any damage it is taking from pokemon either tanky enough to take a hit, hazards, or faster pokemon, Obstagoon usually doesn't last that long.

For example:

252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 130-154 (36.3 - 43%)
252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 187-222 (52.2 - 62%) [98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery]

Keeping in mind this is not the tankiest Hippowdon [252/252+] and this is an Obstagoon which is +Atk and not +Spd. Obstagoon dosen't even do 50% with Knock Off; and the following Facade won't KO without a crit. Hippowdon can just use Slack Off while Sandstorm and Burn whittle down Obstagoon.

Of course; if Obstagoon is running Taunt; then Hippowdon cannot Slack Off on it. However...

252 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Obstagoon: 145-172 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and burn damage

Taunt Obstagoon is also not getting off freely; especially as it takes at least 3 turns; usually 4; for it to actually KO Hippowdon. Obstagoon actually usually loses to Hippowdon.


There's also quite a few pokemon able to just revenge kill it. Pretty much any common bug-type in the tier [Most notably Ribombee] can do so.

Now; all of these downsides are not to say that Obstagoon isn't too much for UU. However, I do think that Obstagoon is nowhere near the priority of, say, Hawlucha [Which I am of the opinion is completely busted and won't even try to play devil's advocate for]. Suspect Test worthy? Absolutely. I'm not so sure it's quickban worthy however.

--


I absolutely think Gengar is likely too much for UU, however, I do feel like I should point out that due to how incredibly frail it is, Gengar is quite easy to lure out and slam on the switch.

Obviously; this takes prediction, but the number of Gengars who try to switch in on a Jellicent they expect to Strength Sap/Will-O-Wisp only to get slammed by a Shadow Ball and OHKO'ed is quite amusing.

I've also had success forceing it out with Drapion, who resists both of Gengar's STAB moves and threatens back a OHKO. With Gengar having trouble getting in in the first place. Gengar also can't run Ground-type coverage for Drapion.

However, when the best argument for something to be staying in UU is 'It's soft so if you predict it you can hammer it' it's not really a very good or convincing argument. If that argument was solid Pheramosa wouldn't be banned in Gen7. I've mostly lost to Gengar as a lategame cleaner, when it's checks are too worn down.

---


These two kind of fall into the same boat of disgustingly powerful priority users. Both suffer from immunities to their primary hard-hitting wall-smashing attacks however. They also suffer from being slow and relatively frail. Crawdaunt is also usually Banded, although Diggersby is not; it can be hardwalled by certain pokemon [Driftblim for example is completely immune to both STABs].

I've not had too much issue with Crawdaunt personally, and of the two I'd say Diggersby is more of an issue than Crawdaunt, if only because Crawdaunt is easier to punish due to usually being banded.

I've seen a lot more Crawdaunt that Diggersby; and it's reliance on Choice; fragility and vulnerability to Hazards usually leads to it only really being able to come in after something faints, and even then, only a few times.

The key difference between the two IMO really is the fact that Crawdaunt is easier to punish than Diggersby. Diggerby's strength comes from Huge Power and it usually isn't Choicelocked. It's also faster and bulkier than Crawdaunt. Crawdaunt can come in, wreck something and then usually be forced out of punished. Diggersby can... switch moves. It's not locked into Quick Attack and can switch to it's harder hitting moves against walls or pokemon who don't threaten a OHKO. Crawdaunt is usually stuck into Aqua Jet/Crabhammer and cannot swap.

---

I'll be completely honest, I've not seen enough Haxorus post-Dynamax to really judge it fairly.

---

Mamoswine just simply always catches me by surprise. I always think it'll do less damage than it does; or that it'll take more damage than it does. I constantly under-estimate it. At the same time... I don't really see it too much either [despite it's high usage stats... I just keep missing Mamoswine users I guess?] My bad playing around Mamoswine makes it a little difficult for me to say if Mamoswine is good or Too Good.

---

I would like to see some discussion on some of these Pokemon or others, as we are now in the stage where stuff can be looked at. I also hope that if the council is planning to Quick Ban a/multiple Pokemon, that they take the opportunity to at least encourage discussion here on said Pokemon first or at the very most their reasonings as to why X was banned. Thanks for reading this long post if you did.
I too would quite like at least a discussion thread in a similar vein to that of Galarian Darmanitan in OU preceding any quickban. Not a full suspect thread but at least one where people can discuss for about a week. Give people a chance to find something, identify the problem set and so on. Even if I don't quite agree with the end result of the G-Darm thread [I personally think the precedent set by Gen 5's treatment of Drizzle and Politoad should have meant a Gorilla Tactics ban to preserve Zen Mode Darm was the right move; not a G-Darm ban. Also Power Construct in Gen7.]; I think the thread itself was right.

---

IMO:

Quickban Worthy: Hawlucha; Gengar
Suspect Worthy: Obstagoon
Sorta 50/50 on: Diggersby

Need to see what happens after the above three are dealt with to really make up my mind; but leaning 'They're just very good': Crawdaunt; Mamoswine

Not enough experience to make an honest statement on: Haxorus
 
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Indigo Plateau

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I’ve been playing way too much of this tier to distract myself from work and I haven’t made a post yet so I figured it was time. I had a couple boring hours at work this morning so I made a fresh alt and laddered for a bit using a Hawlucha team I came up with yesterday.

7083BA4C-F64C-48F4-B82E-2140624863B6.jpeg
(Click me!)

On paper I already knew Hawlucha was gonna be absurd, but being part of the rotating council I wanted to be 100% certain. The idea of this team was pretty simple: suicide double spikes Pincurchin to set up terrain for Hawlucha + Sash Mamo for rocks. Initially I had Obstagoon > Crawdaunt, but my homie Donphantastic ended up making almost the exact same team at the exact same time as me with Crawdaunt & I thought it fit better here so I went with it (his version had Screens Espeon though).

C7837934-A4A8-47FA-A075-058671AA778F.jpeg


Not an insane record and I probably could’ve gone undefeated was I not at work, but this should show how effective the team is. Doublade is an incredible mon too, acting as a late game wincon after Hawlucha wears down physdef walls; honestly, it probably won me just as many games as Hawlucha did. Not that I want to encourage more Hawlucha usage than is already seen on ladder but feel free to use this if you want to form your own opinion on it.

After my ~45 games on ladder with Hawlucha, I definitely think it’s unhealthy for the tier. Supporting it is pretty easy and you can choose between Electric or Psychic Seed and even Herb + CC which makes counterplay not consistent enough to handle it. The meta also becomes extremely offensive because of it, leaving fatter teams at a noticeable disadvantage.

Don’t really have much time right now to comment or write on anything else but just know the council has been actively discussing the current meta, and we appreciate reading your thoughts on it :psyglad:
 
Sorry for textposting:

Piggybacking off Indigo Plateau here but I too spend my off time at work playing mons, and yesterday I made a fresh alt. I managed to go 23-3 at work while not being too focused on my games, which to me speaks volumes to how mindless playing it can be. I'm not going to post the team I used because its quite literally the same team posted above (kinda crazy how we made the same team at the exact same time LOOOL).

In practice, Hawlucha has a very easy time setting up a swords dance thanks to the +1 def/spdef boost granted by its respective terrain. This allows it to tank most unboosted stab hits at a relatively comfortable amount of HP and proceed to start firing off powerful attacks.

There are also a few mons that actually can tank a +2 lucha hit and either KO it back or phaze it out but it has ways of hitting those mons anyway.
Doublade and Reuniclus both can tank its boosted moves, but reuniclus takes over 60 from +2 throat chop, meaning it has to dedicate itself to checking lucha if it wants to do its job there, and Doublade not having access to any reliable recovery makes it easy to wear down.
Physdef weezing is 2hkod by +2 acro and does not ohko with Strange steam, meaning it needs to land wisp to beat it (Which then loses to taunt lucha causing a really fun 50/50 of Wisp vs steam and taunt vs acro)
Hippowdon can also tank a +2 hit but its only real measure of dealing with lucha would be Whirlwind, which is also stopped by taunt lucha, the same can be said for milotic and haze)

Lucha is also incredibly hard to revenge kill due to its natural high speed being doubled by unburden, and its resistance to common priority moves (e.g. First Impression/Sucker Punch) as well as its electric seed giving it enough defense to shrug off aqua jet from crawdaunt and ice shard from mamo/weavile.

TL;DR: Hawlucha is a pokemon that can easily set up on most teams, once its set up it is near impossible to wall and revenge kill. Therefore, we should get rid of it as soon as humanly possible.

Thanks for reading my wall of text =D
 

Hogg

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UU & Tour Head
Hey, good timing...

For our first vote of UU Beta, the UU Council will be voting on Hawlucha. While its offensive stats may seem underwhelming at first glance, the combination of Swords Dance with high base power moves such as Brave Bird and Close Combat make it incredibly hard to check defensively. And with Unburden and a myriad of ways to activate it, either via terrain seeds and Pincurchin/Indeedee or through Close Combat + White Herb, it outspeeds everything in the game even taking Choice Scarf into account. While it has a handful of checks (fully defensive Hippowdon, Quagsire, Mamoswine, Doublade and Pyukumuku), none of these bar Quagsire are reliable. Hippowdon and Pyukumuku, for example, both lose to Taunt, while Doublade struggles versus Throat Chop sets with even a little bit of chip. Mamoswine's Ice Shard requires chip to KO even zero bulk Hawlucha, and bulky or Electric Seed variants tank it comfortably.

The council will discuss Hawlucha and vote this weekend. Votes must be submitted by Sunday, January 5 at 8 PM EST (GMT -5). Please provide any thoughts you have on Hawlucha in the meantime, so that we can get an idea of where the community stands on this Pokemon.

In addition to Hawlucha, the council has been discussing some other potential tests, with plans to do a full voting slate after Hawlucha is addressed. In particular, Gengar, Crawdaunt and Obstagoon are on the radar for a potential vote, so please feel free to provide thoughts on those as well.
 

Moutemoute

Moot-Moot
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Like Indigo Plateau, I laddered on a fresh alt to see how efficient some top threats can be. I've been using two differents HO ; one with Sticky Web and another one inspired by IP's one with some Sash Spam.

Rank-Poloremplo.png




click on the sprites for the export

Both this teams have been effective on the ladder but the second one is definitively better than the first one.
  • For the first one, it's pretty straightforward (like almost all HO), there is Ribombee and Mamoswine which are my Entry Hazards setters. I opted for Quiver Dance + Psychic on Ribombee because it allows it to put some pressure on Weezing-Galar and to prevent it to Defog the Sticky Web. It's also pretty nice to weaken it for Mamoswine / Doublade. Speaking of Doublade this Pokemon is just the best blanket check to the current metagame and its bulk and typing just provide so much to a team. I opted for Gyro Ball since it's the best way to punish Hawlucha after Unburden. Sacred Sword is useful to punish Avalugg but it's also a great way to OHKO that damn Goon. SD Haxorus is just a beast which can tears apart defensive core thanks to its sheer force. I've been using Obstagoon + Crawdaunt because both of them paired well imo. Crawdaunt can pressure really hard Avalugg / Weezing-Galar / Hippowdon which allows Goon to be even more dangerous.
  • For the second team, once again there is Sash Mamoswine which is a great Lead imo. Espeon is used to prevent Entry Hazards on my side of the field which is considering half of my Pokemon have the Focus Sash. I have shamefully stolen the set from Indigo Plateau.. Once again Doublade acts as a nice blanket check to the current metagame while Crawdaunt is there to punch some holes in the opponent's team which allows then either Hawlucha or Polteageist to finish the game. I opted for CC + White Herb Hawlucha because it's the set which requires the least support imo.

Anyway let me give you my opinion on a threat which have been mentionned by Hogg..


Twilight made a great post explaining why Hawlucha is an unhealthy tool in Underused and I'd like to complete its post. In my opinion the worst thing about Hawlucha is how it's really tough to revenge kill. Once Unburden activated, Hawlucha is able to outspeed everything in the tier which limits the ways to RK it. The first thing which comes in mind is obviously Ice Shard which is a super effective priority on Hawlucha.. however it's not enough since the least bulky set of Hawlucha will never be OHKOed by Ice Shard at full health..

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 242-283 (81.4 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 236-278 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


And we're talking about the least bulky Hawlucha because thanks to Unburden, Hawlucha can afford to be invested in HP (especially for Electric Seed and Psychic Seed variants). On the other hand, Hawlucha also doesn't have a lot of defensive answers as Hogg showed. Hawlucha can choose its 4th slot and that's a big thing since it only really needs SD / CC / BB. I've been using a lot Taunt and I found it really nice to shut down some defensive threats. Throat Chop is also super nice to punish Doublade and since it's not hard to wear down Doublade, it's pretty easy to put it in range of a +2 Throat Chop. Overall I think that Hawlucha is just a too good "low risk high reward" Pokemon which impacts in a bad way the current tier. The fact that it can overpowered with such ease defensive staples thanks to its powerful STAB + SD while being so hard to revenge kill make it way too hard to play around.
 

Amane Misa

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As someone who laddered a lot through alts while on public transportation, I'd say that I have a good understanding of the current metagame.



I won't talk too much about Hawlucha objectively because I don't have much to add, but I will share my subjective experiences with it.

I have been using bulky Hawlucha with Electric Seed or Psychic Seed because it doesn't need much investment in Speed if its Unburden activates as soon as it enters the field.

Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 204 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Taunt / Throat chop

52 Speed allows it to outspeed base 80-Speed Pokemon like Mamoswine and Gardevoir prior to having Unburden boost. Objectively speaking, a spread of 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe with an Adamant nature is probably better on slower teams because it allows Hawlucha to outspeed and revenge kill Obstagoon, but I found the extra bulk extremely useful while trying to set up.

Needless to say, Hawlucha won a lot of games without troubles. Hawlucha is also a great partner to the biggest threats in the metagame like Doublade, Gengar, and Obstagoon, which further increases its potential in the metagame.

I do not expect Hawlucha to stay so I will share the team I have been mainly using in the current ladder.


Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 204 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Taunt

Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Close Combat

Pincurchin @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Discharge
- Memento

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak

Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Trick
- Focus Blast

Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Shard

This is my favorite Hawlucha team so far because the offensive synergy between the Pokemon in this team is just insanely good and double Taunt + double spinblockers is a pretty cool combination with Stealth Rock + Spikes + Toxic Spikes. My main issue with this team is the lack of Water-resists but it's possible to outplay with Pincurchin and with Obstagoon.

Here are two Hawlucha sweeps:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1040825005-xgclxuzwv7yfngeu9jov9didutxlxpfpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1040173217-28fgczoadvl4071itye0v8cw7gkvelfpw


Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Obstruct / Switcheroo / Taunt
- Close Combat

After Hawlucha (hopefully) gets banned, this will be, in my subjective opinion, the closest thing to banworthy in the metagame.

Obstagoon singlehandedly destroys nearly every potential defensive counterplay between its insanely powerful and spammable STAB Facade, Knock Off to cripple defensive Pokemon that rely on their items like Avalugg, Obstruct to scout faster Choice-items users, to safely activate its Flame Orb and to mess with Doublade and Avalugg and Ghost-types like Gengar and Jellicent, or Switcheroo to not only mess up defensive Pokemon that rely on their items but also potentially get Leftovers that neutralize its burn damage, or Taunt to make sure Hippowdon and Avalugg are never healing up, and lastly, Close Combat, another very powerful and spammable coverage to hit Steel- and Rock-types.

Add that to a really good natural bulk of 93 HP, 101 Def, and 81 SpD that is further enhanced by a typing that makes it so Obstagoon isn't weak to the most common typings in Water, Ground, and etc. and you pretty much get a monster.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1039067212-k5q2ddy15c82zq03gs3gwvqrznomyzxpw - Obstagoon switches in somewhat comfortably early-game on a Gardevoir and proceeds to almost KO Galarian Weezing and to cripple Avalugg with Switcheroo. I kept it alive for the late game, in which it also Knocked Off Rhyperior's item and OHKOed Gardevoir.

While against heavy offenses it doesn't seem like Obstagoon has that big of a stage to shine, but that's not true. It usually gets around two kills against this kind of offensive teams because its bulk is really good so its usually granted with several opportunities to switch-in and revenge killing it with neutral hits is very hard. Furthermore, as we based earlier, nothing can actually switch into Obstagoon comfortably.

Here are a few calculations that prove my point of how hard it is actually to revenge kill Obstagoon without a super effective hit:
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Obstagoon: 186-219 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Obstagoon: 175-207 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 130-154 (39.7 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Morpeko Aura Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 144-171 (44 - 52.2%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO

All in all, because of these arguments, Obstagoon is too much for the tier in its current state in my opinion, even if it may not be as transparently broken as Hawlucha.
 
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Adaam

Light Machoke
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis the 8th Grand Slam Winner
Greetings, I have achieved 79% GXE with a 24-3 record. This makes the following analysis infallible:

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https://pokepast.es/14c114d96c7bcaa4

I don't know what the Pod speed EVs do, I copied a SM RU spread.

Balance/bulky teams are awful right now. It's not hard to see why. So I tried to make an offensive hazard stack team without using any of the brokens and found decent success. Pod is a fire Mamo answer that lays Spikes and acts as a pivot with its ability. Weavile checks the brokens. Bronzong lays rocks and has nice defensive typing despite never dealing any damage. Flygon is fast U-turner and checks broken Gengar. Chandelure is a nifty wallbreaker that abuses the prevalent Weezer and is my only Arcanine check. Heliolisk is low-key broken as it smashes Milotic and does two million damage to all Ground-types. Sadly Gengar outspeeds it.

Anyway, Gengar and Hawlucha are beyond broken and I will be voting to quickban them (assuming Gengar gets a vote). I don't know what Gamefreak was thinking in giving it Nasty Plot + removing Pursuit + nuking all its counters but here we are. There's next to no reason to not use it because of how fast and unwallable it is. You can't predict a certain STAB and switch to a Normal/Steel type on Shadow Ball/Sludge Wave because it'll just kill you the next turn instead. Plus it has so many good sets, in Nasty Plot, Specs, Scarf, Sub, and fuck I've even seen Endure + Salac Berry that killed my Scarf Flygon.

Re: Hawlucha. Here's what I PMed Hogg in my vote: It’s coverage is unwallable as even Doublade takes almost half from +2 throat chop, and defense boosts through seeds easily stop the very limited counterplay in Ice Shard or Doublade. It’s impossible to stop it from achieving unburden boosts too, especially since you never know if its Sky Attack or white herb until it reveals it (assuming no seed).

Obstagoon is not too far behind these two. Perfect coverage that smashes everything bar Mawile and great utility options make it a menace to deal with (I thought I was hot shit using Golispod to check it until it Obstructed me and I died). I don't think it is as bad as the previous two due to inferior Speed and no way to boost it, but it makes up for it with pretty awesome bulk for a breaker. Right now I'd wanna vote on keeping it to see if it is still so oppressive without Lucha or Gengar, but that probably won't change much especially since these two check it.

Crawdaunt is #4 on my hit list, but I do not think it is quickban worthy. It's just too damn slow and can't switch in on anything except weak ass Bronzong lol. I don't think it is necessarily bad to let a breaker like Daunt in, even if there are no hard counters to it. Forcing more cautious play with your walls is not a bad thing, but right now when we have 3456876543 of them I can see why people want it gone as well.

Nothing else jumps out to me as banworthy. Some comments from what I've seen: Milotic is a monster. I have to actively prep for this on offense to avoid it sitting on my whole team since Toxic isn't a move anymore. Heliolisk, as a result, is so splashable with its speed tier, Ice Beam neutrality, and Grass Knot to smash Mamos and Rhyperiors and Hippos. Weezing kinda sucks and I don't like it. We have no Fairy-types but also no Dragon-types to abuse that. Except Haxorus. Haxorus is pretty nice on offense. Sirfetchd is a goober but damn is it hard to switch in to. If you use Sash Mamoswine, kindly stop. Same with Sticky Web.

TL;DR Nuke Gengar + Hawlucha. Probably nuke Obstagoon as well.
 

TDK

is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
UU Leader
Hello all, the votes are in, and...



To (probably) no one's surprise, Hawlucha was unanimously voted to be banned. Tagging The Immortal to make this change when possible, thanks!

As Hogg touched on before, Hawlucha was an absolute menace. Between its ability and movepool options, it's the most potent setup sweeper UU has seen in a while. Due to its multitude of sets thanks to things like running items such as Electric Seed, Psychic Seed, White Herb, or Power Herb, as well as filler moves such as Taunt, Throat Chop, and Drain Punch , it is able to circumvent would be methods to handle it. Thanks to its naturally high speed, Hawlucah has the luxury of padding its bulk to better take on priority moves such as Mamoswine Ice Shard, this in tandem with the boost from Electric Seed allows Hawlucha to comfortably take on all forms of priority without picking up multiple kills along the way. As Hogg touched on before, Hawlucha can beat Doublade by running Electric Seed + Throat Chop, most traditional bulky forms of counterplay, such as Hippowdon and Pyukumuku, with Taunt. Drain Punch also allows Hawlucha to recover some damage its taken to further increase its longevity, which can be big against teams that rely on sacrificing a Pokemon or two to force Hawlucha to click CC and drop its Defense, allowing priority to knock it out. All in all, Hawlucha was a menace, and one that does not belong in the metagame as it stands.

With that out of the way, it is pretty evident that the next targets are both Obstagoon and Gengar, with Crawdaunt also being a consideration to a lesser extent. We will not immediately have a vote on them, but you can expect one in the near future. In the meantime, please provide your input on what should happen next, and shoot us any concerns you may have!

 
I'm not a hugely skilled player, nor do I have an impressive record to share, so take my opinions with that in mind. With that said, I do watch a lot of ladder games, and have played a fair bit of Gen8.

Obstagoon needs to get the boot from this tier. Between the boost to Knock Off this generation, access to a wide variety of utility moves (Taunt and Obstruct being the two most notable), a surprisingly decent speed tier and extremely solid natural bulk, the goon has no counters in the tier, and hardly even any checks. Hippowdon is the most reliable answer, but even that tends to fold if it comes in at anything less than 100% - and even then the Obstagoon player has favorable options / can win with a correct prediction.

In short, as people better at this game than I have already said, a breaker with no defensive answers and enough bulk that offensive answers struggle to prevent it claiming a second KO isn't healthy.

Gengar, on the other hand, I'd like to see remain, or at least remain for now while the tier attempts to adapt to it. Certainly it is an offensive powerhouse - but the difference is in its frailty. It has the tools to decide which threats it will beat, but not the tools to defeat all of them at the same time. It's fast, but not the fastest thing, remaining vulnerable to priority, scarfers (and faster scarfers, even when it holds a scarf), and strong special walls.

If it remains, it'll certainly be a defining mon for the tier. But so far, while I've seen it win (more than) its fair share of games, Gengar has answers enough on a variety of team structures and playstyles that I'd like to at least give it more time to settle in, rather than an immediate suspect after Obstagoon goes.
 
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Hello yes, it is I, Donny P. And I would like to share a few thoughts on the meta after playing a lot today.

Barraskewda: I spent most of today testing this thing and was underwhelmed. CB hits hard when you dont run into a water resist but those aren't exactly rare on bulkier teams, scarf is great vs offense as even adamant is faster than the teapot and scarfgar but is dead weight vs fat builds (offensive teams have outs too as noivern lives every attack not named ice fang which is a really weak move) life orb felt okay as well but I almost always found myself wishing it were a crawdaunt. Didn't try rain bc I'm morally opposed to using that cheese so cant speak for it there but I still dont see it damaging milo/vapo/mantine etc

Crawdaunt: Now this is a real water type breaker. STAB Adaptability knock is no joke and jet makes it have a decent to good offense MU as well. SD orb is my favorite set but CB is probably great too. Absolutely nothing comes in on this beast and it's only held back by its God awful spdef. That being said it's easy enough to get inside and it can usually claim one when it does, good effing mon

Obstagoon: My vote for best mon of the meta, not too much to say that hasn't already been touched on except for that scarf is also a pretty nice set on hazard stack as defiant + knock / dedge is a good role to fill and parting shot allows you to get in another breaker like gengar who would normally have a hard time getting in

Gengar: If it didn't die to a light breeze I'd be calling it broken as hell. Ghost/poison/ fighting or fairy coverage is dummy strong and it has enough support options to beat any check it wants, however I do not think that's enough for me to say its ban worthy as the metagame is currently offensive enough to revenge it while also having enough things that can take a hit from unboosted gar

Roserade: WHY IS THIS THING SO RARE RN??? I've been using sash and life orb with sleep powder/ spike or tspike/ sludge bomb/ leafstorm and it's great at disrupting a ton of mons, and gets enough free turns thanks to all the bulky waters and grounds everyone loves using. Synthesis will prob become a good move slot when we stabilize the meta and balance becomes playable, scarf is probably also a fine set with dazzling gleam over the hazard but havent tested it yet, but in a tier where noivern avalugg and tsar are the only good removal spikes roserade is tough to stop

Rhyperior milo weezing umbreon cores are good when you dont play against the broken breakers but those teams get shredded by goon/daunt/far so tread with caution. If we're going to get rid of all of these I expect reuniclus to become the next big thing as not having to worry about pursuit is a godsend and it can be paired with alcremie for double slow sweeper goodness.

All in all I've really enjoyed SSUU so far and I'm excited to see where it goes next.
 
hello friends, enemies, acquaintances, and well-wishers

tonight, i have achieved the profound and powerful mark of a jedi/ladder/uu master: 82 gxe and rank 7 on the UnderUsed ladder.

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On a serious note, one thing i saw that certain people disliked about previous uu councils was a lack of transparency, so i'm going to put forth some quick thoughts on the current metagame. My thoughts don't reflect the council at large, as my opinions may differ from several members. (cuz they're all lames haha) (especially sage)

Obstagoon is broken. There is a dearth of true defensive counterplay and obstagoon's strong defenses also make revenge killing inordinately difficult outside of a select few scarfers. Were a council vote to occur, I would vote ban with little hesitation.

Crawdaunt is broken. I achieved that rank spamming teleport xatu+cb daunt. incredibly broken combo. allotted me a 100% win vs essentially every team with a hippowdon, bronzong, or a similar passive rocks setter. Were a council vote to occur, i would vote ban with no hesitation.

Gengar is a mixed bag and not overtly broken in my opinion. I used it on both my teams, with both being NP+sash+stabs variants. I found it incredibly hard, if not impossible, to break umbreon builds, and it was revenged by most to all of the prominent scarfers. Bringing it in is also slightly difficult. I never found it to be too overbearing versus both my offense and my balance builds. I would likely vote Do Not Ban, but I am amenable to hearing pro-ban arguments, as I do believe that gar is without a doubt a top 3 mon in the metagame. I also haven't yet made use of specs gar, so that could be skewing my opinion negatively. If i'm completely off-base here, please feel free to critique what I've said.

Rhyperior is an A+ mon in the current metagame. Checks gar, checks goon, sets rocks, bulky in both offensive and defensive regards while not being passive. I've been using SD as the fourth move, which allows it to shred a large majority of the balances you'll see on the ladder. Phenomenal on both balance, BO, and offense in general.

Xatu is awesome on offense/BO and an amazing partner with crawdaunt. You essentially invalidate hippowdon and award yourself free momentum with teleport and its negative priority, which can be immensely beneficial for playstyles like offense that are predicated on momentum and aggression.

Noivern and Weezing-Galar are the tier's best means of hazard removal. They do both have glaring flaws: noivern's reliance on a 70 acc move and weakness to arguably the tier's most common setters in rhyperior and mamoswine, and Weezing serving as a free switch-in for gengar.

Vaporeon is awesome and incredibly hard to kill for most non-offense builds. Incredibly solid mon, one that would benefit even more from a crawdaunt ban.

Mamoswine is probably A+/fourth in terms of viability within the metagame. Great stabs, phenomal rocker as it beats next to all removal, and an incredibly threatening standalone mon. It does have a decent amount of defensive counterplay, but mamo can generally chip/muscle through weezing/golisopod/araquanid with chip. The only dedicated hard counter is bronzong, which I've found to be generally suboptimal as a rocker in the current meta.

Golisopod is awesome with heavy duty boots. Serves as a strong means of counterplay to a bevy of offensive mons, and its access to spikes made it a phenomenal addition on the offense build I was using. Sage also likes it and she rocks.

Sirfetch'd, a mon I've seen a lot of buzz surrounding, is largely underwhelming in practice. I'd rank it around A- in the current meta, as it has strong means of defensive counterplay and its frailty and poor defensive typing awards it few free switches. It's currently outclassed by crawdaunt to a profound degree.

Indeedee is solid and generally unexplored in the current metagame. There is a lack of dedicated steels, which makes scarf deedee able to largely abuse a strong proportion of offensive/BO builds. With goon and daunt possibly leaving, I imagine psychic spam to grow even more viable. CM and specs sets are also unexplored, though perhaps for good reason.

Haxorus also seems unexplored, as adaam rinsed me with DD haxorus on ladder, but I saw next to none of it outside of his build. With mold breaker+EQ for weezing-g and its speed tier being faster than a lot of scarfers, haxorus could be a solid pick.

I could write a lot more but i don't want to. May you all have blessed days.
 

Moutemoute

Moot-Moot
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Hello guys, it's Moot-Moot, still here to talk about my thoughts on the current metagame. Like yeezyknows, I know that during SMUU, some people complained that there wasn't enough transparency from the UU council and their thoughts on X or Y threats. My aim is to try my best to provide my thoughts on the metagame as much as possible and as often as possible..Let's dive now into the concrete..


My thoughts on Obstagoon didn't change a lot since this post. I still strongly believe that this Pokemon is way too dangerous for the tier due to the lack of viable answers to it. In my opinion Obstagoon restrains way too much the teambuilding and it forces players to run moves like Body Press on a lot of defensive Pokemon in order to be able to lure Obstagoon or a least be able to punish it really hard. I also strongly disagree with Raikaria's post which said that Obstagoon suffers from a 4MSS which isn't true. Outside of Facade and Knock Off which are mandatory, Obstagoon can really opt for whatever it wants and it will always be great. Taunt allows it to prevent some of its checks like Hippowdon or Avalugg to recover while Parting Shot is a great way to pivot while being able to bring on the field a teammate with much more safety. Close Combat is a great way to punish Steel-types and things like Rhyperior or Avalugg while Switcheroo can be super annoying since it allows Obstagoon to bother a defensive threats while still being able to get some useful items such as Leftovers (which allows it to offset residual damages from the burn). Last but not least.. how can we talk about Obstagoon without talking about its signature move : Obstruct.. This move is probably the most unhealthy tool Obstagoon has since it allows it to force some of the worst 50/50 in the whole tier. On the paper, Obstagoon has some solid checks such as First Impression Golisopod or Sirfetch'd, Sacred Sword / Close Combat Doublade but because of Obstruct, it totally changes the game since you have to predict if your opponent gonna use Obstruct / has Obstruct or not..

Example :
  • I have a healthy Doublade which is able to handle a Guts boosted Knock Off.
  • I need to think about the possibility that Obstagoon may have Obstruct.
  • That leads me to a dangerous 50/50 there I can lost my Doublade or need to switch-out if I'm doing a Sacred Sword / Close Combat on Obstagoon's Obstruct. But I can also think that the opponent will Obstruct and then use SD. Unfortunately if the opponent decides to use Knock Off instead of Obstruct then I'm gonna lost my Doublade too.

Replays :
  • Replay 1 : On turns 4 and 17, Obstruct Obstagoon was able to shine by forcing Doublade to switch-out and by being able to not be revenge killed by Sirfetch'd First Impression.
  • Replay 2 : On turn 8, once again Obstruct Obstagoon shines and was able to force out Doublade. This replays also highlight another issue with Obstagoon.. the fact that it's actually really bulky for a such offensive and "fast" threat.

This is a point I didn't talk about yet but here we are.. unlike threats such as Gengar or Crawdaunt, Obstagoon is super bulky ! 93/101/81 is not something to take lightly at all.. Thanks to its bulk, Obstagoon is able to handle a lot of hits from faster threats. Even if it gets chip because of the burn, it still able to take some hits from Pokemon like Noivern, Flygon and even some super effective hits from defensive Pokemon such as Weezing-Galar's Strange Steam. Unless you're using a super effective move on Obstagoon, it's actually kinda hard to OHKO it.. I believe Obstagoon puts way too much pressure on the whole tier and that it's super hard to play around its STABs and filler even defensive answers such as max def Hippowdon or Avalugg need to be careful. Hippowdon just need a bit of chip damages to be in range of 2 Guts boosted Facade and Avalugg can't really afford to take a Knock Off since without its Heavy-Duty Boots, it will struggles to handle hits from Obstagoon because of its Stealth Rock weakness.


Crawdaunt is a pretty straightforward Pokemon : it just punches holes in opponent's team. This Pokemon doesn't have any switch-in and the only Pokemon which resist both its STABs are Whimsicott and Shiinotic which aren't good in the current metagame which is really really offensive. I played a lot this Pokemon and I found it amazing. If it's able to come on the field safely, then it's pretty sure that it's going to do a KO or dent hellah hard a Pokemon. I second what yeezyknows said about Xatu + Crawdaunt core, I played with it and it's just amazing, Teleport + Choice Band Crawdaunt is overall insane because it allows Crawdaunt to be brought on the field safely which is just what it looking it. I believe this Pokemon doesn't bring something healthy in the tier and that it should leave as soon as possible. Even it's bad speed isn't the biggest issue since Choice Band Adaptability Aqua Jet is able to take out of guard frail offensive Pokemon or weakened threats.


You know the saying "never two without three" and there it is, the third broken Pokemon of the Holy Trinity : Gengar. While I think that Gengar is the more manageable threats between the three, I can't deny the impact of this Pokemon in the tier. The loss of Pursuit is so huge for Gengar and it can just go back and forth on the field while hitting like a truck thanks to its amazing typing Ghost / Poison. It's also important to raise the fact that the only Pokemon which are able to handle some hits from Gengar get shreded by Trick. Indeed, Pokemon like Umbreon, SpD Mantine or Gastrodon doesn't appreciate at all being choice locked. The council talked a lot about this Pokemon and we raise the fact that Trick + Nasty Plot is a 100% viable tech which allows Gengar to always be able to exert pressure on the opponent's team even after it uses Trick. The speed of this Pokemon is also quite amazing since it allows it to outspeed every Shell Smash users at +2 and generally almost any Pokemon at +1. Gengar also has a great movepool with options such as Focus Blast to obliterates Dark-types such as Obstagoon or Umbreon or Thunderbolt which is able to nuke bulky Water-types such as Vaporeon, Mantine or Milotic. Yes this Pokemon is frail but it's also a pure powerhouse and one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Like its counterparts Obstagoon and Crawdaunt, I believe that it should leave the tier as soon as possible.
Now that I talked about the Pokemon which should be banned, I'd like to briefly talk about some great I used and enjoyed a lot. I'll try to be as brief as possible to not both you any longer.. !


Barraskewda is a super nice Pokemon and I love it. Its great speed tier and attack allows it to be pretty nasty vs offensive teams but the fact that it struggles to break through bulky Water-types means it's kinda a dead weight vs more defensive builds. I've been using a lot Barraskewda as a Choice Scarf user and ngl it acts as a really nice revenge killer and a great finisher. Thanks to Choice Scarf, Barraskewda can also afford to run an Adamant nature while still being able to outspeed Shell Smash users at +2 and Choice Scarf Gengar. It's also able to pressure Screens Offense thanks to its fast Psychic Fangs which is nice.. I found Choice Band Barraskewda nice too but I have to admit that I prefer its Choice Scarf set. This Pokemon is overall a great addition to the tier, it's good but definitively not overwhelming.


Choice Band Sirfetch'd is one of the best breaker in the tier and Scrappy Close Combat is such a great move to spam.. Even if its speed isn't great, its access to First Impression allows it to somewhat overcome this issue. Since it really only needs 3 moves (Close Combat / Knock Off / First Impression), it can afford to be flexible on the last slot. Steel Wing dents Weezing-Galar while Defog can be useful vs some offensive teams. Overall a nice Pokemon which probably will enjoy the future bans.


yeezyknows talked about this guy and I pretty much agree with everything he said. Golisopod is one of these Pokemon which has been blessed by the Heavy-Duty Boots. It's a great Spiker and a great answer to some threats such as Mamoswine or Lucario. Even with its bad speed, this Pokemon can annoy offensive teams thanks to First Impression (and to a lesser extent Aqua Jet or Sucker Punch). Liquidation is a pretty spammable move and even if it struggles to beat bulky Water-types just like Barraskewda, it's still a really nice Pokemon in the current metagame.

Feel free to give your thoughts guys on the current metagame and/or threats. We'll be happy to hear you !
 
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Greetings. Slow week at work so I've had some spare time to ladder on alts/theorycraft. One mon who I think is solid now and is about to get a lot better is Gourgeist-Super

Spr_7s_711Su.png
Gourgeist-Large @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Bomb
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp

I'll start by saying that I have a pretty limited sample size when using Gourgeist. However, it seems to fit nicely into the meta given the prevalance of bulky, passive walls a-la Milotic, Hippo or Vaporeon. Additionally, Gourgeist-Large can run speed investment to outrun max speed Crawdaunt, forcing Crawdaunt to Ajet instead of knock you off. Colbur gives really nice flexibility in the meta atm, but is likely going to be outclassed by lefties once Crawdaunt/the goon presumably leave the tier.

Going forward, Gourgeist is still going to have a nice imo. It walls Diggersby nicely (4hko by CB EQ), setting up a free sub and seeding incoming switches. Once Daunt/Goon leave, Gourgeist will also be able to run more defensive investment, allowing to to better wall Diggersby and other offensive threats. Finally, Gourgeist has great utility as a spinblocker, making it a viable option on BO/hazardstack teams needing a versatile utility mon.

The set probably isn't perfect, which is why I wanted to start a discussion around Gourgeist. What do you all think of the plant? Is it going to get better moving forward? How will the usage of fat walls such as Milotic and Hippo be impacted by future tier changes?
 
Greetings. Slow week at work so I've had some spare time to ladder on alts/theorycraft. One mon who I think is solid now and is about to get a lot better is Gourgeist-Super

View attachment 217325
Gourgeist-Large @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Bomb
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp

I'll start by saying that I have a pretty limited sample size when using Gourgeist. However, it seems to fit nicely into the meta given the prevalance of bulky, passive walls a-la Milotic, Hippo or Vaporeon. Additionally, Gourgeist-Large can run speed investment to outrun max speed Crawdaunt, forcing Crawdaunt to Ajet instead of knock you off. Colbur gives really nice flexibility in the meta atm, but is likely going to be outclassed by lefties once Crawdaunt/the goon presumably leave the tier.

Going forward, Gourgeist is still going to have a nice imo. It walls Diggersby nicely (4hko by CB EQ), setting up a free sub and seeding incoming switches. Once Daunt/Goon leave, Gourgeist will also be able to run more defensive investment, allowing to to better wall Diggersby and other offensive threats. Finally, Gourgeist has great utility as a spinblocker, making it a viable option on BO/hazardstack teams needing a versatile utility mon.

The set probably isn't perfect, which is why I wanted to start a discussion around Gourgeist. What do you all think of the plant? Is it going to get better moving forward? How will the usage of fat walls such as Milotic and Hippo be impacted by future tier changes?
I've also felt drawn to Gourgeist recently because we currently lack a variety of good bulky options, but I haven't used it yet. So, I'll start off with the qualifier that on paper, I don't like Gourgeist for the roles you describe, besides as a (choiced, because Ice Punch is usable) Diggersby switch. I would agree that bulky grass types are good right now and are scheduled to get better with wacky Hawlucha and hopefully Obstagoon leaving (no non-ghost grass type can take a Facade, Flame Orb can't be Sleep Powdered, etc.). The prevalence of Milotic and Hippowdon helps this immensely. My primary issue is that I don't see Gourgeist checking that many offensive threats on its own. Weavile is still here and very good, Geist would like to take Mamo's EQ but still fears any Ice STAB, Araquanid can't be burned, and almost all SpA mons are faster. Golisopod and Flygon seem like good matchups though. Physical threats need to watch for burns but it's not exactly a surprise option coming from this mon.

Gourgeist has a niche pressuring select spinners, mostly Tsareena and Claydol (Eldegoss?). I think there are other ghosts who do this better, though. Or at least ones that can also wallbreak like Chandelure or do literally anything like Gengar. And with Gengar specifically running around, I would be wary of using too many slower ghosts.

I think this set represents some good ideas. Leech Seed feels pretty good against bulky cores and I think this makes a good case for Roserade or even Whimsicott, which can lay seeds and then U-turn their switch-in. Rotom-C also feasts on Milo+Hippo, or even sets up Nasty Plot. I think Roserade in particular has a bright future here, and Rotom-C is really good already. On Gourgeist, one issue with taking on bulky waters especially would be reduced movepools often making things run Ice Beam, as well as Scald burns.

I like your idea of using size large instead of the traditionally bulky super to lure, outspeed and beat Crawdaunt. You'd need +Atk 252 to guarantee the OHKO with Seed Bomb without rocks though, or 212 EVs with rocks, further detracting from bulk. Against Life Orb, I can see this being an okay answer.

I also think this idea is also a symptom of Daunt's presence in and pressure on the meta currently, similar to Lucha's: lures can feel like the only ways to beat these mons while playing defensively. Offense doesn't lack answers to Daunt because of its low speed and defenses that have been talked about before, but resorting to Gourgeist (who, imo, isn't the best option overall) to switch into Daunt doesn't say good things about Crawdaunt's presence here. In more blunt terms I'm saying that doing stuff like niche Gourgeist for Daunt isn't healthy. It resembles an Ice Fang Hippo set I was using specifically to lure Lucha. This forced me to put SR onto another mon, making the whole strategy super costly in terms of team composition and moveslots (granted that Ice Fang isn't all-around bad on Hippo imo. Hits Noivern and Claydol for decent damage, but not having rocks on hippo had consequences). No disrespect to Geopolitics at all. Me being a player who prefers bulky archetypes, I just think Daunt is wack.
 
I respect BlueWinds 's post a lot! I think more people like us (the mediocre ones; no offence) should give their thoughts on the meta and the mons that are currently in discussion.
So to follow his example, myself is going to give some wacky thoughts on the stuff I wanna talk about:

:crawdaunt: Well well well...im really sad to see that my boy will most likely go to OU. Crawdaunt is super fun to play but also super annoying to play against. I dont want to just copy paste because there are like 50 posts above that explain really well why its broken. Leave.


:Obstagoon: Im not sure if I never played a good Player who used this mon right but I never had any big trouble getting rid of it. I normaly use Hippo or Lugg to counter it and they never failed. But these are just the normal 1400 Elo - Players I guess. But i agree that on paper Obstagoon needs to go. But again, the posts above should give a better opinion on that.


:Rhyperior: This mon I LIKE. It does the job i want it to do in almost every game. It surprisingly lives many physical attacks you wouldnt expect. Sadly it dies when there is a puddle.


:Araquanid: Im enjoying this mon as a kinda special sponge and Mamo answer with Rest/Sleep Talk/Liquidation/Leech Life. With Water Bubble this mon is like a Crawdaunt besides it doesnt have Knock Off. Also beats many fatter builds that relie on Toxic chip and stuff like that.


:Umbreon: Probably my favorite special wall. Im in love with yawn protect because im an asshole. Wish-passing is also pretty good on things like Rhyperior or Weezing-Galar. Ist just a fat annoying mon.


:rotom-mow: Volt-Turning(-Teleporting??) into hard hitters is pretty good in this meta imo. I prefere this over Heliolisk because it gives you a bit more bulk. The lower speed doesnt really matter to much because you want to be slower so this is actual a plus for R-Mow.



In my final words I wanna thank all the people that help this meta to develop. I finally have the chance to follow a meta through ist Alpha and Beta. Im curios what the futur will bring in this tier.
Thanks for reading, have a great day.
 

Twilight

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I just wanted to share some thoughts on a couple of Mons I have been liking as of late.


First of all though, with regard to the Obstagoon and Gengar topic, I pretty much agree with most of the above posts. Though I do want to talk about Gengar, as some people have pointed out that its bulk sometimes lets it struggle in the current meta. While I do agree with this notion, one shouldn't forget that its Speed tier makes up for this a fair amount. Having base 110 Speed does let it set up a Nasty Plot on a lot of offensive threats, especially if you cannot risk sacking your Pokemon. I've had this happen on several occasions where I can't risk sacking my Diggersby for instance, even when they full well know I'm locked into EQ, leaving me compelled to switch. I also think Choice Specs sets are the best anyways with taking advantage of its immediate power and in turn, feel pretty stupid when it becomes almost mandatory to run Umbreon and SpD Hippowdon, Gastrodon, or Drapion to check it. The bulky waters do a decent job of checking it as well, but when you factor in that they must spam their recovery options it doesn't make them that reliable, as they can't even find an ideal opportunity to click Scald for that clean 35% chip without dying :bloblul:. As Moutemoute said, you can also literally screw all of these Pokemon over with Trick anyways and the right coverage option in the third slot. If the community wants Gengar to stay longer then I am not completely opposed to this however...

I would like to see the council vote on Obstagoon by the end of this week, as I firmly believe we will only get a much better understanding of the meta once one of these top threats goes, and Goon is the most problematic one out of all of them for the reasons expressed more than enough times above.


We have very few offensive Electric-types this gen that isn't Rotom-C and I've enjoyed these two a lot recently. Many of the Galvantula I have seen on ladder have simply been Focus Sash Webs suicide lead; however, I genuinely believe that this Pokemon shouldn't be used as a dedicated webs user, similar to how Araquanid is being used right now. I much prefer LO sets with 3 Atks + Webs where I normally opt for STABs + Volt Switch. I've used this on quite a few teams and found it is much better to use as a wallbreaker/revenge killer, especially with its more than average Speed tier. Heliolisk plays a similar role but boasts a better Speed and SpA stat at the cost of less utility with Webs. However, it can literally sit in front of every bulky Water-type being spammed right now bar Milotic, which can do a decent chunk with Ice Beam + LO recoil damage. In most cases, you will resort to Heliolisk more for these reasons but I think there is more than enough to differentiate the two of them from each other and the other Elec-types.


Pangoro @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Darkest Lariat
- Drain Punch
- Bullet Punch

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Wave
- Vacuum Wave
- Dark Pulse

I've been experimenting with Pangoro as of late and I defo think it is good enough to have a niche in the tier. While it does have to compete with Sirfetch'd in some ways with being slightly weaker it has a few differences that I believe give it a sizeable difference/worth using over it. Pangoro for one doesn't give a fck about Acid Armor Reuniclus as Darkest Lariet ignores all stat boosts, so with some of my attempted balance builds being weak to Reuni, I sometimes resort to this. Pangoro also has a slightly more reliable form of priority in Bullet Punch to deal with stuff like Whimsicott as First Impression can be played around pretty easily as proven. Also with Obstagoon and Crawdaunt potentially being on the chopping block, we are going to have fewer and fewer Dark-types to deal with stuff like Reuni especially when pretty much all of our Steel-types lose to it anyways. Toxicroak is another Fighting-type I have been enjoying a fair amount simply because of all the bulky Water-type spam, Crawdaunt spam, and it taking advantage of most Poison-types like Drapion etc. I've used both SD and NP sets but I've actually preferred NP sets in the current meta because you really value Vacuum Wave for stuff like Goon + I also opt for Dark pulse to take on Doublade. I don't think either are top tier or anything like that, but I think they are worth trying out.


Vaporeon imo is one of the best bulky Water-types and walls in the tier. Milotic still outclasses it as a bulky Water personally, but it provides so much utility to a team. The number of things Vaporeon is able to just sit on is pretty funny through the combo of Wish, Protect, and Yawn. It also being one of those Pokemon that just sit on Barraskewda. Vaporeon is also surprisingly pretty strong, something I tend to overlook with it having base 110 SpA. Its main issue comes from not being able to punish stuff like Crawdaunt and Araquanid enough, which is personally why I have preferred Yawn over Haze, the latter being something I've seen a few people on ladder opt for. I do hope Vaporeon usage goes up a fair amount as it was disappointingly low before.


Barraskewda doesn't seem too problematic for the tier from experience. It's best matchup is definitely against opposing offense teams otherwise I've found it just struggles a fair amount being a dedicated wallbreaker. Maybe this is primarily how I build the BO I use on ladder with most if not all having a bulky Water-type but with how good they are right now, it really hinders Barra. Noivern spam also doesn't benefit this Pokemon a whole lot with it being OHKO'd by Hurricane and resisting the more spammable moves in Liquidation and Close Combat. I much prefer CB sets but LO is also pretty decent too simply for the ability to change up its moves. In most games against defensive builds, it has basically been a coinflip on how good this Pokemon performs, so it defo feels like it is fine and manageable enough as of right now. I do acknowledge HO teams can struggle with its Speed tier, but I'd be interested to see how they adapt to it.


To echo what Donphantastic has said, Roserade is really good right now with how much utility it provides. Rotom-C is one of the most spammed Electric-types right now and with it beating all of the Ground-types in the tier, Roserade's ability to pivot into it and not care is very beneficial for a lot of teams. Roserade is also one of the few Pokemon with both Spikes and Toxic Spikes to support its team. Being a Pokemon that can beat the bulky Ground- and Water-types makes it extremely good in my books, not to mention its Poison typing letting it absorb opposing Toxic Spikes. I've mainly used Synthesis in the last slot to let it beat stuff like Milotic better, but I agree Sleep Powder is also a good option. I've also been using Weather Ball with Ninetales, which I've found to be a cool tech to deal with Steel-types like Doublade etc. I like Vileplume for a similar reason with the utility of its typing, but this is a much better pivot into some of the Fighting-types in the tier with having Strength Sap. You have quite a few options in the last slot like Sleep Powder, Growth, and Toxic all having decent viability. I do want to state however that these two do struggle a lot with letting Gengar in for free, which is pretty problematic for them.

That's all, I've been liking the discussions so far. I'm glad the council is being more open and transparent about everything that is going on and going out of their way to post as well.
 

Hikari

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Been playing the tier a bit on the ladder and with the goons. The power creep feels weird and honestly I don't think that aspect is going to change even with a bunch of bans, so I'll have to get used to it. Even if the current main 3 get banned, there's still a shitload of strong threats, there's no Blissey / Regen shenanigans to blanket check large chunks of the meta without investing too many resources and reliable hazard control is extremely limited. Defensive Pokemon will always exist, but as things are right now proactive tanks (Rhyperior, Hippowdon, Bronzong) seem to be a lot better than passive Pokemon that do nothing but sit there and absorb damage.

If I had to pick which Pokemon two quick ban right now, I would pick Obstagoon and Crawdaunt. There's a lot of Pokemon with comparable power to those two like Haxorus, Mamoswine and Diggersby, but what for me makes them significantly more oppressive than the competition is access to STAB Knock Off. They both play very differently, but they share power, excellent coverage and the ability to cripple everything, with virtually no opportunity cost; this is what pushes them at the top of my list. Playing around Knock Off is so punishing and it hurts any outplay potential, as it allows them to ruin threats even if they predict wrong.

Avalugg could be used to beat both, but it eats one Knock Off and it's weak to rocks. Hippowdon can check Obstagoon to some extent, but hit it once with Knock Off and it gets overwhelmed by Facade. Anything that relies on Leftovers for longevity, like Weezing, Rhyperior, and bulky Bewear, fear switch into a predicted Knock Off. Any offensive Pokemon that does not die to Knock Off, wether it is because they resist it or because they are bulky will be extremely cripple and lose most of its potential

Those two Pokemon being gone would give me a lot of freedom, both in teambuilding and in terms of prediccting / outplaying my opps.

I know a lot of people want Gengar gone but for me it's significantly more manageable than Obstagoon and Crawdaunt. It's incredibly frail and it lacks the raw numbers of something like Crawdaunt, making it much easier to trade against and much riskier for it to attempt to setup. And as fancy as +2 LO calcs look, getting to that point is hard and not being immediately revenge killed / forced out right after is harder, as there's always something faster, priority or a Pokemon fat enough to eat any +2 hit. For me the scariest Gengar is the one that doesn't bother setting up and even then, it's decently manageable. Oh yeah and Focus Blast is fucking trash.
 
Hi UU comunity, today I wanna share my opinion of how is going the metagame rn, I prepared a top 10 mons that I consider are the best mons of the actual metagame, I have to add, Im doing this post taking in count opinions from this post and others, also as my experience as a player (not actually the best player, but I fell that I know most of the metagame) and maybe someone could have different oppinions, so u are free to coment your own opinions. Whithout any more introduction, lets start.
#10 Drapion
drapion.png


Excelent typing on Poison/Dark, being weak just to Ground Types, this 4° Gen scorpion has a place on the UU metagame as a Toxic Spikes setter, being able to check Gengar/Poltageist and be one of the few mons with acces to Knock Off, this pokemon has been seen on defensive or balanced builds.
Drapion @ Black Sludge
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 76 SpD / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Toxic Spikes
- Poison Jab
This is probably the most standar set that is running, Knock Off doesn't need to be explained, Taunt helps to deal with some hazard setters like Spikes Frosslass or Sticky Web Araquanid, set up sweepers like Alcremie and Reuniclus, or Defog users like G-Weezing, T-Spikes is one of Drapion's reasons to be useful, and Poison Jab to hit harder than Knock Off after item being removed or try to poison Flying/Levitate mons, there are other options like Poison Fang that has a 50% chance to badly poison or Protect to scout choice item Mons but I would suggest to run the standar one.
#9 Rotom-Mow
Rotom_Mow.png


Nice offensive typing on Electric/Grass hitting neutral or super effective big part of the metagame, for me the best choice scarf user after Gengar. Being able to check 2 of the most common Stealth Rocks setters, Rhypherior and Hippowdown, and check bulky Water mons like Milotic, Vaporeon and Mantine, and punnish defensive mons by using Trick.
Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Leaf Storm
- Volt Switch
- Trick
I used this Mon a lot of times during Alpha and Beta ladder and gave me good results, it can be paired easy on balanced builds, also one of the few viable volt switch users on rhe metagame. There are not many other options but u can also decline on a Nasty Plot set or even a set that I have seen on other posts of Chesto Berry with NP + Rest. Good results with this Rotom form.
#8 Hippowdown
hippowdon.png


Ok, maybe some of u wanna kill me right now, and I understand, since I started playing UU on USUM I really liked this Mon beacause how good it was, I don't mean that actually isn't good, stills being a good mon, but not being able to run Toxic anymore make him not capable to punish Defog users anymore, reducing his movepool to Stealth Rocks, EQ, Slack Off and Whirliwind.

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rocks
- Whirlwind
- Earthquake
- Slack Off

This is a max Def set, but also a SpDef set is useful too to deal with stuff like Gengar, I usually preffer run max Def in order to Switch in against Obstagoon, also I used in some cases Body Press to deal with Goon, or Stone Edge to punish Defog Noivern and OHKO Centiskorch. As I said, still being a good defensive mon and probably one of the best Ground Types of all time, but not be able to run Toxic (I hope in the future it will) makes it less useful
#7 Noivern
noivern.png

Heavy-Duty-Boots was probably the best thing that SS introduced after Dynamax mechanic (just kidding, fuck Dynamax) and Noivern is one of the best users of this item combined with acces to Defog and a decent typing, also able to check annoying Araquanid.

Noivern @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- Roost
- Defog

This is the most standar set, but Noivern has a big movepool to shine, Hurricane hits for neutral damage good part of the metagame, Flamatrower hits Steel Types in general, Defog for support and Roost to keep healthy, there are other options like U-turn to gain momentum, Superfang to always deal 50% of opponent HP, Taunt to prevent Hazards like Sticky Web Araquanid. A better defogger than G-Weezing in my opinion.
#6 Rhypherior
rhyperior.png

Be x4 weak to Water and Grass can look like horrible typing, however Rhypherior is probably the best Flying resist rn. Also Ground Types are good in general, being able to check Obstagoon, Gengar, Noivern, Drapion..... it checks a lot of pokemon, but his main problem is a poor SpDef stat, and no reliable recovery, being weak to chip damage and more dificult to use as a Switch In if it recieves a Knock Off on the Leftovers.

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 184 SpD / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Ice Punch

I have to add here, idk if this mon has standar sets rn, but Im gonna put this set that Twilight shared on his posts, so credits to him. In general this mon has nice bulk and works well with a SR setter role, being one of the main keys on BO and Balanced teams.
#5 Mamoswine
mamoswine.png

It was difficult for me to chosse if Mamoswine deserved a hight position, but I have my reasons to put him on #5 place. A really good mon, I like the direct pressure that puts on the oponent, Ice and Ground are good ofensive types, Earthquake + Icicle Crash hits everything in the meta, also works nice as a SR setter with Sash on HO builds, it can punnish Defog Noivern.

Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Shard
This is a Sash set, works well on offense builds, but also a Life Orb set can work, dealing more damage, also u can decline for a All-out-attack set, having acces to Stone Edge and Superpower (also Knock Off in the future). The problem that this mon has is the difficult to deal with bulky water mons and how low defenses it has,being kind of easy to revenge kill. Not anymore to say, this mon is amazing.
#4 Doublade
doublade.png

It was difficult for me to chosse if this position was deserved for Doublade or Mamoswine, I declined for Doublade for the following reasons:
• Can work as a defensive and offensive Mon at the same time
• Able to deal good damage with the combination Fighting-Steel-Ghost coverage
•Be a good way to revenge kill Gengar
•Tank 1 Guts Obstagoon Knock Off and return to OHKO with Close Combat/ Sacred Sword
• A good Spin Block for defensive teams.
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak

This is the standar SD set, tbh it doesn't have any other viable set xd, but that is enought, there are some other few move options, like Sacred Sword for more PP than Close Combat and don't get the defense drop, Gyro Ball with a Brave nature, or rarely Shadow Claw for a better Ghost Stab. It has something in common with Mamoswine, that it has a bad time dealing with bulky waters and how fragile it is on the special side even with the eviolite boost, also has some problems dealing with Bulk Ground types, especially with Hippowdown, but by far, is one of the top mons on the current metagame.
#3 Gengar
gengar.png

With the bronze medal, here comes Gengar, since UU Alpha this mon got controversial for how poweful it was, considered for a lot of players overpowered for the tier, however, althought is a big threat, it has checks.

Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Trick
- Focus Blast

The most I have played, Scarf Gengar was the most common set that I have seen, however you can decline for more wallbreaker options like Specs Gengar for direct pressure or Nasty Plot that was Gengar's biggest buff of the generation, it has good defensive checks like Umbreon, Vaporeon, Rhypherior, SpDef Hippowdown and Milotic, however Gengar can punnish all of them by using Trick to locke them on a move and reduce their defensive utilites.
As I said, a big threat but I would not consider Gengar as a completely broken threat, maybe in the future it will get a Suspect Test, but I consider that it will stay on the meta a big time.
#2 Crawdaunt
crawdaunt.png

With the silver medal, this Dark/Water Crab comes to punnish any defensive build, Crawdaunt was a big threat on USUM UU, but it had checks on Chesnaught, Primarina and the omnipresent M-Altaria, however they doesn't exist rn on SS, no defensive Switch in, just Whismicott has a typing that resist both Crawdaunt's stabs.

Crawdaunt @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Crunch

Boi, this thing is a fucking monster, Choice Band is the most preffered set for direct pressure, basically nothing can safely Switch in and u are on a 50/50 most of the time, Knock Off is a good move to spam, here are some calcs to some of the best defensive mons atm.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 324-382 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 158-186 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed Rocks.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 220 Def Milotic: 312-368 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Althought those offensive keys, it can be revenge killed, low defenses and bad speed, make it easy to Revenge Kill.
A Sword Dance set is also viable, to nuke even more, however CB is preffered for direct pressure because it can be difficult to find turn to set up.
This thing should be considered in a suspect test in the future, I see it unhealthy for the metagame and maybe is gonna be one of the first suspect tests.
#1 Obstagoon
862MS.png

Surprise, surprise, with the gold medal we have the omnipresent and controversial Obstagoon, there isn't a safe Switch In to a Normal-Dark- Fighting coverage, in my opinión, Max Def Hippo is the best Switch In, however, it gets 3HKO from Guts Boosted Facade and Goon can run Taunt to prevent Hippo to Slack Off, Body Press Avalugg sounds nice, however if it recieves a Knock Off, it lose Heavy Duty Boots and gets fragile to entry Hazards for that -25% from Stealth Rocks.

Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Jolly Nature
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Obstruct

This is the most standar set, Obstruct makes Obstagoon be sure to get the Guts boost from Flame Orb and also get more easy KO if the rival decides to attack with the -2 on Defense, examples are First Impression Sirfetch, Close Combat Doublade, Body Press Avalugg and Foul Play Umbreon, here are some calcs with Max Defense Avalugg.
Before Obstruct -2 Def.
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
After Obstruct -2 Def.
252 Atk Guts Obstagoon Close Combat vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 282-332 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just needs a little bit of chip damage to OHKO, and can Knock Off the boots to get on the late game that hazard chip damage.
I really like this Mon, sadly is being broken for the tier, It will eventually get banned early or late, I hope in the future with National Dex it will be able to be used on the Metagame again.

Vaporeon/Umbreon are good defensive pivots in my opninion, nice options on balanced or defensive builds, both being able to check Gengar, maybe in the future they will get Heal Bell and Toxic again to work better on defensive roles.

Araquanid
This Pokemon like Hippowdown lost Toxic, making less viable but stills being an annoying Sticky Web setter, also being able to tank hits on the special side, and deal a big damage with Water Bubble + Liquidation.

Lucario
Both Sword Dance or Nasty Plot sets are viable, I started seen some Nasty Plot sets with Vaccum Wave to hit Obstagoon, this Pokemon after a boost can become dificult to stop.

Sirfetch'D
Choice Band + Scrappy makes Sirfech'd a viable option on offensive or balanced builds, I found this Mon so many times on ladder, First Imprision is good to Revenge Kill and deal with Obstagoon.

Avalugg
Avalugg was blessed with the introduction of Heavy-Duty-Boots now being a viable Hazard remover with Rapid Spin, also acces to Recover, decent 95 HP stat and an amazing 184 Def stat makes this Pokemon a good option for defensive teams.
Thanks for reading this post, It was a torture do all of this on my motherfucking ass cellphone, I hope metagame will evolve for well on the future and also the comunity. :psyglad:
 

Sage

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There's a pretty clear unhealthiness to the meta when we have the all the power of the top threats in the big three + other strong pokemon like Mamoswine, Diggersby etc. Just going to post a little bit about some of the discourse in the council that hasn't made it to the thread yet.

I'm of a bit of a different mindset than most of the council as Obstagoon is probably a distant third in my priorities (while still thinking all three of the Obstagoon Crawdaunt Gengar trifecta are at minimum suspect worthy.) I think a Pokemon like Obstagoon that forces you to play your walls more carefully isn't necessarily the worst thing for the meta, it doesn't feel quite as low risk to use to me as Crawdaunt which doesn't even have to think about clicking buttons because of how powerful its Knock Off is, and Gengar which is significantly faster. There's an assorted amount of counterplay to Obstagoon, some obviously more shaky than others in Hippowdon, Avalugg, Rhyperior, and Bewear, as well as the fact where it is chipping itself to break more often than not taking hazards, burn, and potentially sand. It's speed tier compared to Gengar has quite a few offensive powerhouses in the 95-110 range that can either revenge a weakened Obstagoon or OHKO it (Haxorus, Heliolisk, Durant, Sigilpyh, Ninetales.) The worst part about it is definitely the variance between Taunt / Obstruct / Switcheroo in the support moveslot, but I would argue that Obstagoon is also a good presence in limiting the power of fat / stall while not being quite as mindnumbing as Crawdaunt. Still a suspect worthy threat, but I would likely vote DNB in a quickban.

Crawdaunt is so low risk it's laughable, with Aqua Jet to keep it afloat in the offense matchup as cleaner / win-con level threat and still being able to get turns of off slower pokemon like Rhyperior or Bronzong. Gengar gets to come in a million times a game without Pursuit, has cool Choice sets with Trick that can screw checks like Umbreon or Drapion, and has a very high speed tier making the revenge killlers pretty limited (taking Doublade / Mamo / Goli priority from full + rocks.)

I think VoltTurn + Xatu is a very dangerous archetype rn, webs are ok but more manageable than ladder would make you think, balance is pretty worthless but semi/hard stall have a small place still. Gonna try and play more as I haven't been grinding a ton of games.
PS: I'm taking credit for the Goli wave, fantastic mon keep using it:psyglad:
 

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