np: SS UU Stage 10 - Airplanes (Latias Retest)

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Hi all, I was thinking about the best ways to counter the new threats in the tier in Latias + Hydreigon as well as sand + Excadrill, and my mind happened upon hail. It turns out even without Arctozolt, hail is REALLY good right now! Here's the team I've been using, shot me up to close to 1500 on the ladder very quickly on my alt with almost no thought needed:

:ss/Abomasnow: :ss/Arctovish: :ss/Sandslash-Alola: :ss/Froslass: :ss/Kommo-o: :ss/Azumarill:

https://pokepast.es/32c15a9edf81a22d

Abomasnow is the mandatory hail setter but also matches up very well vs the common lead Krookodile. Arctovish and Alolan Sandslash are there to abuse hail. I opted for a Focus Sash on Alolan Sandslash so that it doesn't flop against Conkeldurr and Keldeo. Earthquake was also chosen on Alolan Sandslash to give a neutral hit on Keldeo while still KOing Nihilego. Frosslass is the alternate lead and gets up spikes while potentially removing a threat or slowing one down, and Excadrill cannot spin its spikes away! Clangorous Soul Kommo-o provides a bulky special sweeper that smashes just about anything outside of the special walls. Thanks to Overcoat, it also gives the team a free Amoonguss switch-in, and allows Kommo-o to be unaffected by hail itself. Originally, Azumarill was a Choice Band Haxorus, but the team was too weak against Conkeldurr and Primarina there, so I opted for Belly Drum Azumarill to give the team a resist to Mach Punch and a neutrality to Primarina's Moonblast + resist to Water STAB. Azu also loves being able to set up Belly Drum more safely behind Aurora Veil.


Overall, from my very early impressions, hail looks to be quite viable right now, and I encourage others to try it :)
 
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Adaam

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It's been a couple days only, but Hydreigon and Latias are insane. I agree with everything pokemonisfun said about Latias. Every check we have now existed when we banned it, minus Mandibuzz and Aegislash which are 2HKOd (or damn nearly) by Thunderbolt and Mystical Fire. It is no exaggeration to say that unless you're runnig Chansey, you're going to be weak to Latias. In addition, our tier is even slower than it was when we previously had her (no Zera), so offensive checks are still few and far in between. I'd like to personally see a test for Latias soon.

Hydreigon is in a similar boat, but we at least have Prim/Azu and a more manageable speed tier. However Latias is so restrictive that the Pokemon that get the jump on Drei are pretty much unviable now (see Keldeo, Boots Zarude, Nihilego, LO Shao, Focus Blast Thundy-T). I think Drei might be a solid addition to the tier if Latias goes, but the combination of the two has made building nightmarish.
 

scorbunnys

Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
So I wanted to talk about the winners and losers of the shifts but StarFalcon wants to do it so won't stop them :D, so I'd do a general post about some stuff which I've been trying + my opinions in the shifts.
:Sylveon::Ss/sylveon::Sylveon:
Sylveon @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Mystical Fire / Heal Bell
While I’ve already talked about this mon, I think that with the meta shifts it just has gotten better than before, but first I’ll mention it’s niches over Primarina (it’s biggest competition), then how it has gotten benefited and then a little replay.
So it’s niche over Primarina comes in form to be able to pair with many cool partners such as Swampert, Rotom-Wash, Seismitoad and Slowking while also providing Wish support to them (the latter doesn’t need Wishpass too much though, even though it appreciates it in TWave + Future Sight sets) and Heal Bell support in one slot. It also can check more effectively stuff such as Thundy-T and Azelf more effectively than Primarina, which is certainly appreciated.
Now, how has it gotten better? Despite it doesn't appreciate Buzzwole rising to OU at all it has gotten new victims such as Hydreigon, Latias Thunderbolt (good niche over Primarina imo) and it has gotten new partners such as Swampert and Slowking, not to mention that Aegislash dropping in usage is kind of good for it (though it might do a comeback).
Anyways, here's a replay of this lowkey good mon:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1428212440

:conkeldurr::Ss/conkeldurr::conkeldurr:
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch
It feels really good rn, as Mach Punch can pick up threats such as Excadrill, Zarude, Hydreigon and Mienshao while also being lowkey unwallable with Facade just hitting through most stuff and Knock Off being able to wear down it's ''resists''.
Now, as for it's niche over Mienshao, well, it's power + Mach Punch allows it to carve a niche over it, as Mienshao doesn't have the absurd amount of power which Conkeldurr has due to Guts + Flame Orb + Facade. It also can be a ''status absorber'' if you need one, which is super good as it can switch into stuff such as Rotom-Wash.
Though it has some drawbacks, but it's main one is the need of pivoting support, as while this mon is sort of bulky, it still can't switch-in into the offensive threats of the metagame and it can get easily forced out by Latias and Tapu Bulu. Still a good mon and deserves more appreciation right now.

Anyways, I'll probably touch 4 mons which I believe they can fit on the metagame.
:ss/thundurus:
So I've never felt that this mon is broken, either I do right now. While it's certainly known that Knock Off + U-turn is obnoxious, I think balances can certainly adapt to it better with Swampert and Excadrill here while also having some niche picks such as Rhyperior, Sylveon, Umbreon, Diancie (KM gang) and Tapu Bulu which can be ''decent checks'' to it. It also has some ways to be revenge killed by Lycanroc-Dusk, Mamoswine and Zygarde-10% (put it into Accelerock/Ice Shard/Extreme Speed range isn't that hard). However, I feel like it's pretty soon to unban something right now, but this is probably by far the closer one to be unbanned IMO.

:ss/terrakion:
Terrakion doesn't look too terrible to deal with rn with cores such as Slowking + Skarmory and it has an annoying 4MSS (it wants SD, CC, Stone Edge, Megahorn and EQ) which makes it easier to deal with if your team is prepared to it. Band sets have the ''choice locked'' problem, as you can just try to scout with Slowking, Amoonguss and/or Tangrowth and then switch out to an answer. Ik this take is probably kinda crazy and all but doesn't feel that broken at all.

:ss/arctozolt:
I feel like a second chance can be given to it, as with AloTails gone, it has to rely in kinda shitty hail abusers such as Aurorus and Abomasnow (Hail is neat rn but doesn't look that busted) while it also has gotten some counterplay in Excadrill and Swampert. Though I can certainly understand why it can be unbalanced here, I believe that a second chance can be given due to it's new counterplay and the AloTails raise.

:ss/latios:
So eh, ngl I'm not too sold on this, but Amane Misa made a pretty good reasoning of why a second chance for it could be given and not gonna lie I'm inclined to agree, as we've got Mandibuzz and Slowking which are nice answers to it. Not to mention that the reasoning which has been given for Latias could be used for her brother too:
Latias is very powerful and we all know this; it was banned for a reason, right? Well, here's the thing - it was banned a very long time ago in a very different metagame, and back then we didn't have much by way of defensive presences that could handle it; Pokemon like Primarina and Celesteela were kept down by the ever-looming presence of Zeraora, Aegislash was still banned, and we didn't have the new additions of Excadrill, Hydreigon, and Mandibuzz to help in the fight against it. The most common method of dealing with Latias was using Slowking to switch into it and then Teleporting into an offensive check like Zeraora or Choice Scarf Krookodile. Nowadays we've got more; Primarina, Aegislash, Celesteela, Jirachi, Galarian Moltres and Zarude are all stable parts of the metagame, and revenge killers like Krookodile, Choice Scarf Mienshao, Lycanroc-D, Azelf, Zygarde-10%, and Mamoswine are doing better than they used to. We also got the aforementioned three newcomers in Excadrill, Hydreigon, and Mandibuzz which can check it offensively or defensively, and Slowking is an ever-helpful pivot that can hopefully ensure Latias is kept at bay.
I think that we are also underestimating the bulk difference, as Latias can setup slightly easier than Latios, here's some calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 125-148 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 113-134 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 152-182 (50.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 134-158 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 187-221 (62.1 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 205-244 (68.1 - 81%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And I think I forgot some benchmarks but you get it anyways. I don't think that Latios should be unbanned right now, but I feel like it could get retested at some point personally.

And now my opinion in the shifts....
:excadrill::ss/excadrill::excadrill:
Mole is very good rn, as it's such of a versatile mon thanks to it's good typing which allows it to check Latias (only a soft-check though), Hatterene (tf mfire is broken), Sylveon, Nihilego and Glowbro while also having utility such as Spin, Rocks and it can also hit through Rotoms, which is very cool for a Ground-type rn. It also can be ran in Sand and/or with Magneton support w SD sets, as it can still hit through most unprepared teams and Magneton + Sand support could be very nice in order to allow it to both, being harder to revenge kill and removing the rotoms. Overall a super good mon.

:skarmory::ss/skarmory::skarmory:
Skarmory is Skarmory, it's just a really good defensive glue able to check Excadrill, DD Mence, Tapu Bulu, Krookodile, Zarude and can stomach a Latias hit and it just Whirlwinds back. It can also offer Spikes utility and Sturdy is just very annoying overall. Also, Custap Skarm might have some utility as Luirromen said. Hell, u can even run ID BP on it and just be a wincon. This thing is really, really good rn.

:slowking::ss/slowking::slowking:
Why does people underestimate it? Like yeah I understand Zarude and Hydreigon are common but this shit is super threatening still imo. While I don't expect to see Future Sight as the obnoxious and annoying set that it was, Thunder Wave is still an strong option in order to disuade Latias and Hydreigon to switch into it. It's also a good Keldeo, Latias, Primarina and Excadrill check in one slot and it can be paired very well with the second glue (Skarm). Hell, it can even run non Slack Off + Wish support prob!

:Swampert::ss/swampert::swampert:
Rocks? Check. Flip Turn? Check. Volt absorber? Check. Nihi check? Yeeea. Like this mon just compresses so many roles in one slot which is so insane! I personally find it as a good fit in Volt Turns but it could fit on Drei + Sylv balances. Might CB and LO Rocks see some usage too? Like, it has Flip Turn and some nice coverage in Ice Punch while also having a powerful EQ, so they may be worth testing.

:Latias::ss/Latias::Latias:
Don't get me wrong, I feel like this mon is top tier and its really good, but I feel that we shouldn't ban it again, as we still have some backup for it such as Chansey, Metagross, Jirachi, Excadrill, Sylveon, Umhreon, Primarina and even some niche picks such as CurseLax, which while is definitely dangerous to prep, I still feel like it has enough backup and LO sets can be played around. Anyways, with that being said, this mon is really good! Like the OU supreme dictator ausma said, CM 3 attacks may be the best LO set, as it needs all 3 slots to beat it's checks. Specs is also very dangerous as again, ausma said because u can just click buttons and start killing stuff. I can also expect utility sets and Scarf sets to be nice, there's lots of room to exploration for this mon and its a sick addition to the tier!

:Mandibuzz::ss/mandibuzz::mandibuzz:
While I believe it's still a cool addition (though it might end up not running Defog sets, rather it could use something like Toxic/Foul Play or Knock Off/Roost/U-turn), it's still hella exploitable with Knock Off being on like the 99% of the teams right now and it hates to get it's boots knocked off. It also is very prone to get chipped w status. With that being said, I still feel that it's a very cool pivot able to check Latias and Drei.

:Hydreigon::ss/Hydreigon::Hydreigon:
Scary threat here, as this mon is just hella powerful and its able to break through many structures without a solid fairy able to stomach hits from it. I do find NP 3a lefties to be the most threatening sets due to its ability to fit everything it wants + not getting wear downed easily but I recommend u to look at the Katy's post, as she brought many interesting Drei sets. Its speed may hold it back from being broken but it's still very damn threatening rn.

And that's all! Hope u liked this post and have a nice day!
 
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So I want to bring up something that I noticed might make some progress in the tier and takes advantage of a few new drops. Specifically, Azumarill.



Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Rest

How often has this happened to you: You bring in your Azumarill, thinking you'll chunk out something, and then you get switched in on by a fat wall? Well, nobody remembers this set exists and with Skarmory, they just click a brainless switch-in it can't kill. Cue the Trap. Really, you lure so much of the tier's counterplay I'd honestly enjoy seeing this set pop up more just to annoy everyone.
 
I've been having absolutely amazing success in this new meta, hitting top 50 on ladder which is unprecedented by my own fairly low standards. Mamoswine is incredible and expert belt dazzling gleam Azelf claims the lives of so many Hydreigons. It's almost like I can't lose....until that is I run into the one player running this fucking thing.

(this picture is too big but fuckit have you seen what the official size of this haunted seaweed is? big image justified imo)

Anchor Shot + Poltergeist + Synthesis + idk rapid spin, doesn't matter. I don't know if my team is just uniquely bad at handling it or what, but I can't even pivot around this motherfucker because of Anchor Shot's trapping ability, and it's so physically bulky that your knock offs aren't doing shit when it uses synthesis after your first knock. I'm sure there's some minor modifications I could make to my team to not just lose my entire defensive core to it....but it's fucking Dhelmise, it's not even ranked on the viability charts! It probably should be, but nobody uses it apart from this one guy so they just claim a free win versus me.

Can more people start using it so I feel more justified in building specific anti-Dhelmise tactics into my team? Thanks!
 

kino

formerly laevin
is a Tiering Contributor
Quick thoughts on the meta

:latias: :hydreigon: I agree with the overall "together they are extremely painful in the builder" thought. The fact that one can potentially abuse the checks of the other make it painful and you have to stack dragon checks much harder than when kommo-o (already and still a pain) was the main one with dd mence. I also think the shifts are super kind to HO playstyles, and those two are quite nightmarish in these. The ridiculous amount of options Lati has in HO builds make it super scary to switch into and I often end up sacking the least useful mon for crippling it. I've been cheesed by Latias an good amount of times already and I'm not looking forward to it happening more often when the meta's stabilized.
Hydreigon is much more predictable (while having a great amount of options) for now and I've had decent success with aggressively pivoting on it. I'm sure it can develop steadier options when the meta settles. It doesnt feel broken for now and I'm looking forward to see how it evolves in the meta. If we're to suspect/ban one of those to relieve a huge amount of pressure when building, id rather see it happening for Latias.

:swampert: who? This has been doing nothing everytime I saw it. The bulk is a bit lacking, you're suffering from a huge 4mss and every time i faced it it ended up getting its leftovers knocked and chipped until it was in range of literally anything. Maybe in a more stable meta it can carve itself a niche as a stealth rocker for BO volt-turn ish playstyle but rn what it did when facing it was negligeable at best, what it did when I played it was dying to Grass Knot cause I didnt have a better check to Nihi/Thundy than spd this. It feels bad, and would want 252+ in both def stats and an actual ability to avoid dying to half of the tier in the long run.

:slowking: is slowking, maybe it's a little bit less obnoxious than in previous meta cause we don't have Zeraora or Terrakion to abuse Sight/Tport as well as they did but Slowking teleporting its way out against a bunch of threats (lati, the one keld left, primarina, teela) is still super annoying. I think the metagame's overall a bit less kind to it right now, but I'm sure that in no time it'll comfortably be a must pick in a lot of teams. Its presence back here makes retesting/freeing a bunch of uubl really questionable, mostly thinking of Terrak and Thundy that I saw mentionned here or there.

:skarmory: :hatterene:
yeah I pair the two. Skarmory feels good in some teams but the things it checks are kinda specific and it suffers from a rather big 4mss. I'd like to run BB/Toxic/Iron Head/Whirlwind on my last slot so I dont get abused by some whack shit. Hatterene has been doing good for me in that regard, abusing almost every Skarmory set and preventing it from clicking 2 or 3 of its moves. It's also able to 1v1 a bunch of stuff in the tier and while having a fairy that doesnt resist Dpulse not great in Drei meta, Magic Bounce feels valuable, albeit fishy. The two are rather good teammates, forming a solid hazards control core, with Skarmory being able to take on some stuff Hatter fears (Exca, Diggers, can absorb koff, non mixed Jira, av growth)

:excadrill:
while spd has been feeling shaky and extremely matchup fishy, every offensive set even outside of sand is looking great to me. I've been using Lefties Mold Breaker SD Spin stabs the most (toxic > SD sounds very usable too) and it condenses a lot of things while being extremely threatening if given the chance, which isn't too hard to get when you can force out so many mons in the tier. Some stuff is able to sit on it, mostly Skarmory/Teela but the checks seem abusable, looking forward to see how it turns out.

:kommo-o:
It just gained heavy competitors in terms of dragon types but I still love the mon. Ive been trying Roar+Future Sight slowking and it works pretty damn well, you get a lot of shots at sight > tport or hard clang > roar seeing how Kommo-o covers some of king's weaknesses and vice versa. Mixed Clangorous is still fire and super scary to face. SD might be the slight loser of this shift seeing how its speed tier got a lot worse but it doesnt sound unusable either

:gyarados:
im finally catching up on how big a threat that is. It's super scary to face and if you get the set wrong, you can just get wiped in no time. Sub lefties look kinda busted in a meta not too kind for rotom forms, and 3atk still force the same painful gambles as ever, if rocks arent up at least.

This sums up thoughts on quite a few mons above but I think HO has an amazing potential right now, with far too many threats and various team comps for one's builder to handle. If we could somehow make it less overwhelming when building, I feel like it'd be for the best.

is all for me
 
Okay, I know this mon unranked on the VR but, I am starting to think the drops are allowing this mon to shine. I wish I could bring in sum replays but, the whole asking for permission stuff to share the replay is tricky (I am unlucky).


Whimsicott sprites gallery | Pokémon Database

Whimsicott @ Expert Belt
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 184 HP / 76 SpA / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Encore
- U-turn
- Giga Drain

In my opinion, this mon has carved a niche as a really cool semi-defensive pivot that can score quick KOs on HO teams, deter bulky offensive teams going for shenanigans, and annoy balance teams.

Offensively - Depending on the set (the set up above is my favorite set) it can score OHKOs on a wide set variety of mons. Boots would be the weakest set, but it can score OHKOs on Hydregion, Swampert, Kommo-O, Seismitoad, Crawduant, Quagsire, Rhyperior, and Krookodile. E-Belt allows 2HKOs on Latias, Azumarill, Zarude, Salamence, and Bulky Rotom-W. E-Belt can OHKO Zygarde-10% and Noivern. Choice Specs (With Energy Ball over Giga Drain) can score OHKOs on all those mons as well as HO Excadrill, Primarina and bulky Rotom-W. Specs also scores close OHKOs on Mandibuzz and Slowking.
U-Turn is great way to keep up momentum on popular bulky steel types. Also, the speed is invaluable, out pacing the popular 100-115 speed tier.


Defensively - This mon is annoying to so many others as a pivot. It can switch in on spore then encore on Amoonguss, and it can switch in on Celesteela leeching then encore. Fairy typing alone is great for Draco Meteors and keeping Hydreigon from spamming its STABs. Latias' Mystical Fire is a 2HKO on bulky spreads like mine (unless Latias is running specs). Zygarde-10% has a tough time breaking Whimsi and the Scott outspeeds for major damage or an OHKO. It's also good at tanking Knock Offs if it's needed (my set is specially made so it 2HKOs it's targets no matter what).

The typing + encore + U-Turn + Speed Tier is honestly what makes this mon so great to utilize as an Anti-Meta pick. I hope more people use it because it's a fun mon to play with on ladder.

Here's other sets I had fun with:
https://pokepast.es/519a3ed35f7ab409
 

Hogg

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I figured Latias was due a chance back in UU given that we got Slowking back (basically the most consistent Lati pivot when it was here previously), plus added on the new arrival of Mandibuzz and the existence of Aegislash, who wasn’t around previously. I also thought that there was a chance that with Hydra dropping down too, the meta would quickly adjust to having a strong Special Attacking dragon around. I wasn’t convinced it would be balanced, but figured it was worth giving it a shot for a couple of weeks to see how things go.

Well, it hasn’t been two weeks, but I’m already regretting that decision. I’ve actually found Latias more difficult to reliably deal with than any of the other drops. Sure, Hydra has more breaking power, and Excadrill can be a menace if it flinches past your ground resist, but Latias has just been a nightmare to deal with. 110 Speed is just insanely good in this meta, especially given that the only decent Scarfer that can even dream of coming in on Lati is Jirachi (who still doesn’t exactly love taking a Mystical Fire or a Life Orb/Specs-boosted Draco). Slowking still pivots in fairly reliably if you’re running a Specially Defensive set, but the really scary Latis have been dropping CM and Defog to consistently run 3 or 4 attacks, giving them room for Thunderbolt. And speaking of, Mandi needs 196+ SDef to avoid the 2HKO from LO Thunderbolt (meaning you’re not going to be able to use Mandi for things like Excadrill that you otherwise would want that slot to check), and even fully SDef sets can easily lose if they get knocked.

Basically we’re talking about something that has the breaking potential and speed of Lycandusk, but without the paper defenses and with way more opportunities to come in throughout the game. I’m still holding out hope that the meta will adjust (more Chansey/SDef Slowking, more ways to punish a -2 Lati, teams with a more offensive tempo packing more than just a single form of speed control), but I’m already fairly convinced that she needs a retest/follow-up vote.
 

Lily

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UU Leader
This feels weird to me given how much I wanted to ban Latias way back when, but I really don't see it as problematic whatsoever right now. Maybe this is a minority opinion and it's pretty clear that we're going to have to do -something- about it pretty soon and I will be aiming for a suspect test rather than a quickban, but if push comes to shove then that happens.

Here are a bunch of Latias checks I've been using since people seem to be struggling to find them. Not all of them are perfect mons but I've found them to fit just fine on plenty of the teams I've built.

:ss/slowking:
Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Scald
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
- Teleport

The obvious one, Slowking hampers Latias quite significantly. Only 2HKOed by the rare Thunder which misses anyway and forces pretty predictable lines of play, can freely switch in all day long and abuse Latias in a significant number of ways. I think people seem to be running physdef Slowking which just doesn't make any sense, it's not a good check to anything anyway, just make it spdef and wall everything that ever dares to throw a Thunderbolt your way.

:ss/mandibuzz:
Mandibuzz (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Defog / Foul Play
- Roost

Again much like the above, never 2HKOed by any relevant move and puts Latias in its place pretty easily with Knock Off. Bonus points for being able to chunk it with U-turn pretty well. Mandibuzz is somewhat of a knock magnet depending on how you build but I've found it fairly easy to pair it with something like Amoonguss which can easily absorb all the knocks for it, at the cost of being slightly Drill weak but Drill is countered by literally half the mons in the tier anyway...

:ss/chansey:
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Teleport

It's a Chansey I'm not going into detail here

:ss/zarude:
Zarude-Dada @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Whip
- Darkest Lariat
- U-turn
- Jungle Healing

Scarf Zarude is pretty good again, forces a lot of catch-22s with Latias and appreciates the general lack of fat grasses relative to the past. Pairs exceptionally well with Slowking when it comes to answering the airplane.

:ss/slowbro-galar:
Slowbro-Galar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 16 SpA / 240 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Side Arm
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower

Pivots into Draco without taking too much, any other move bounces except the rare Psyshock - seems most people agree at this point that Thunderbolt is significantly better. You can regen it off fairly well and not have to worry about other moves at all really. Physical SSA does ~40% which racks up really fast with Life Orb + Poison.

:ss/diancie:
Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Body Press

Unfortunately very walled by Aegislash but hey that's how it be, Diancie can compress a fair bit. Really good rocker that keeps them up vs literally everything except Defog Skarm which isn't even a reliable answer because +2 Body Press absolutely pops it if it has the nerve to Roost, Excadrill takes ~80% from Body Press even unboosted and stuff like Mandi/Mence/Rotom-H is obviously covered, Rotom-W takes a fair chunk from Moonblast, etc. I guess you're walled by Tentacruel to some extent but like lol.

:ss/sylveon:
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Mystical Fire
- Wish
- Protect

Cool mon, very solid Latias counter and also really good into Hydreigon and Kommo-o. Mystical Fire lets it chunk stuff like Aegislash and Excadrill but you can make it Heal Bell if you really want to. It's just a Sylveon I don't rlly need to go into detail, it's a good Dragon check and isn't terrible into Mienshao/Conk/Krook/whoever else despite the meh defense investment.

Getting tired but to add on without explanations/sets: :excadrill: :jirachi: :aegislash: :celesteela: :hatterene: :gastrodon: :umbreon: have all been good against it defensively, and offensively you've got stuff like :krookodile: :mienshao: :lycanroc-dusk: :moltres-galar: :mamoswine: :azumarill: :primarina: :noivern: :tapu bulu: :hydreigon:. Glastrier too if you're real enough for it, use that mon please it's good

Idk. I don't really see it or anything else as broken, I'm enjoying this meta and don't think anything needs to be addressed, just feels like some more adaptation & optimisation needs to be done - and that's okay! We're only a week in, that's what happens in new metas! Please give things more of a chance and don't swing the ban hammer too early.
 

pokemonisfun

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:latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias:

There were two explicit posts calling for action to be done on Latias - Adaam's and Hogg's - but neither of them laid out explicitly what the set in question was they referred to.

In my view, there is only one set that pushes Latias over the edge to clearly suspect worthy, which Amane Misa made me aware of:

bitchy sissy (Latias) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Draco Meteor
- Mystical Fire
- Roost

The coverage here is nearly impeccable - you hit almost everything for a neutral Draco Meteor or super effective coverage move; two Fairies are an exception, Hatterene and Sylveon; the former still dislikes switching into coverage. You no longer have to choose between hitting Excadrill or Primarina which makes you so much more threatening vs most teams given these are two of the most common threats. The things you normally like Psychic/Psyshock for still generally lose to you - Nihilego, Roserade, Conkeldurr, Keldeo, Mienshao - and none of them are going to be particularly brave and try to stay in usually; especially as other Latias sets are still viable.

Combined with other sets - for example, CM STABs Roost straight up beats Diancie and Sylveon - I am not convinced at all the counterplay we have to Latias is sufficient.


I did not think Latias was clearly suspect worthy until I used this set (I previously used the same moves but with Expert Belt).

I think it's very important to post this set for the public view because it's not intuitive to drop off a Psychic STAB - everyone knows STAB moves are usually the first move you pick - but the coverage in this case more than makes up for it.

I submit the following replays I played in ladder games that I believe show how Latias is suspect worthy:

  • https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1431346638-tt1i9qxikwbu3pz4h6z12hnbi11lknupw - The opponent's Latias counter play is offensive Celesteela and Ice Punch Swampert which in my view is below average Latias counterplay to begin with. But Latias' speed tier here plays a key role as well. Unlike Hydreigon, Latias cannot be checked by Focus Blast Thundurus nor Outrage Salamence because her speed tier sits ahead of the two and has the ability to OHKO both of them with Draco Meteor. Her stellar special bulk stops a Celesteela sweep that would otherwise have won and also allows her to recover later in the game on Thundurus, to completely mop up the remains of the opponent. I believe this game shows all of her traits - bulk, power, and speed - that combine to make a suspect worthy threat. Nevertheless, I understand the opponent here had a Latias weak team to begin with. Not so with the next game.

  • https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1431354174-be3syfvovcy5m9bsmoheyk3oadu1oxipw - This time, the opponent is well equipped to deal with Latias - specially defensive Thunder Wave Slowking + Specially defensive Excadrill + what appears to be Scarf Hydreigon are all present. One Thunderbolt critical hit on Slowking makes it unable to stay in on Latias and all hell breaks lose with Latias then being able to get around it's remaining counter easily. One of the notable points here is that sets like specially defensive Slowking are in my view at least somewhat suboptimal in the metagame - you can see that very nearly cost the Slowking's life when it tried to stay in on Excadrill, a Pokemon it often should try to stay in on.


  • https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1431378370-xni8wri8up9jeugrdb005h0kkbhhlh6pw - In this game, my Latias shows it's defensive prowess and speed by being the only thing stopping the opponent from getting a Toxtricity sweep - even when Latias doesn't get openings; it's always going to be helpful - this extremely low opportunity cost/high splashability contributes to Latias' unhealthiness. It's also clear that although the opponent loses here, their Latias is the MVP being able to score KOs and give Toxtricity a dying chance with Healing Wish.
Latias is a menace right now. It's ability to get past the majority of it's counterplay is unnerving in normal circumstances but combined with Latias' speed and bulk; it's more than just good every game, it's clearly suspect worthy to me.
 
Last edited:
hi,

The only part of dropping latias that would seem regrettable to me would be the fact that it’s being done in the middle of scl and majors and jazz. Otherwise, this type of retest method reminds me of how UU used to operate under the koko system, which I personally am pretty fond of specifically for any tier that operates directly under ou or in conjunction with ou. I’m not sure if hogg had kokoloko’s old system in mind when he presented the idea, but again I think it’s a nice change of pace to try and break free from whatever ss uu had molded into, which from my understanding hasn’t been ideal even though I haven’t played this meta much, only been watching and listening to disc.

I think maybe this could’ve been presented during the month of November where there seems to be a lull before masters starts up, but I could easily be missing something here since I don’t pay attention much. On a brighter note, I think given the intensity of the mons that just dropped, I see there being more opportunities to maybe have one or two more of these 2 week testing periods depending on how these mons turn out in the meta. Unfortunately you sacrifice community power, but you gain a cycle of freshness thrown into a tier, which is a fair tradeoff imo. I wouldn’t go as far as to say it should be a longterm method of tiering, but if you can nail the time and place for it’s use, it does wonders. I think we were just ever so slightly off, but close enough to where I think it shouldn’t be completely regrettable. UU actually seems hella fun rn even if latias were to be ultimately ass waxed back into BL.

This one got the TL juices flowing again so I felt like I could maybe not post something completely useless here.

-ass waxer
 

lordjajabuba

Banned deucer.
repost from another thread:

I recently lost with my Trickroom team in a UU tournament mostly thanks to an opposing Amoonguss with Regenerator and Rocky Helmet. When I made my team I used Claydol instead of Slowbro (which I normaly use in OU battles). When comparing Slowbro in OU and Amoonguss UU I just can not see that big of a difference (both bulky and access to Regenerator). Besides I would even argue Amoonguss has a better typing plus Spore where as Slowbro can be stalled by toxic. So what are the chances that one of these scenarios will occur?
 
repost from another thread:

I recently lost with my Trickroom team in a UU tournament mostly thanks to an opposing Amoonguss with Regenerator and Rocky Helmet. When I made my team I used Claydol instead of Slowbro (which I normaly use in OU battles). When comparing Slowbro in OU and Amoonguss UU I just can not see that big of a difference (both bulky and access to Regenerator). Besides I would even argue Amoonguss has a better typing plus Spore where as Slowbro can be stalled by toxic. So what are the chances that one of these scenarios will occur?
Amoonguss and Slowbro in theory share similar defensive attributes: Bulky pivots that can check the majority of fighting types while also supporting their teams through either Status (Spore, Thunder Wave, or Toxic) or Future Sight (In Slowbro's case). While both also have access to Regenerator, that is essentially where the similarities stop.

Amoonguss has a pretty good reputation of being the tier's most solid Mienshao answer, can dissuade pokemon from coming in on it via Spore, and can provide opportunities with said Spore. It's Grass/Poison typing enables it to either be Neutral or Immune a lot of handy and common moves, such as U-turn, Knock Off, Toxic, Toxic Spikes, or Volt Switch.

On the other hand, Slowbro doesn't quite have these similar attributes. It's dual Water/Psychic typing leave it abused by all of these, bar Toxic Spikes if equipped with Heavy-Duty Boots, and considering how prone it is to Knock Off from the fighting types it would check, that isn't permanently an immunity. While not being in the tier, Slowking also shares a lot of these attributes, which leave it better off trying to handle threats such as Latias with it's massive SpDef. Even with it's reasonably good defense stat, Slowbro's weaknesses to common utility and pivot moves leave it worse off as a defensive pivot in theory if it were UU in comparison to Amoonguss.

The question would probably better for OU considering that's Slowbro's tiering currently, but I hope this helped.
 
It certainly helped me! So why the hell is Amoongus UU clogging up a Plume spot?

Seriously, I always wondered what's going on up there.
 

Ruft

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It certainly helped me! So why the hell is Amoongus UU clogging up a Plume spot?

Seriously, I always wondered what's going on up there.
If I'm reading this right, you're wondering why Amoonguss is UU over Vileplume?

The answer lies mainly in Amoonguss's ability, Regenerator, which is one of the best abilities you can ask for on a defensive pivot like itself. Regenerator allows it to restore health by switching, which means it doesn't have to waste turns to use - and dedicate a moveslot to and rely on the PP of - a recovery move (Strength Sap or Synthesis in Vileplume's case). Additionally, Amoonguss's superior bulk and access to Spore and Foul Play should not be overlooked either.

I hope that answers your question, though you should probably ask questions like this in the SQSA thread next time around.
 
Sorry for the short post, I just would like to point out that Sneasel improves significantly post-October shifts, with one of its primary answers in Buzzwole having left for OU. In addition, Sneasel has gained a host of new victims, outlined in the table below:
Pokémon​
Calculation​
Notes​
:Excadrill:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 360-426 (99.7 - 118%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
~~~
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 385-454 (106.6 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 480-567 (132.9 - 157%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
Swords Dance Sneasel must be able to get to +2 Atk before OHKOing Excadrill with either Knock Off or Triple Axel.​
:Hydreigon:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 522-618 (160.6 - 190.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 288-340 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

~~~
252 Atk Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 348-414 (107 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
:Latias:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 420-494 (139.5 - 164.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 522-618 (173.4 - 205.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~~~
252 Atk Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 348-414 (115.6 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
:Mandibuzz:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Mandibuzz: 384-456 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- approx. 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 114-136 (45.4 - 54.1%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO
~~~
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Mandibuzz: 504-600 (119.1 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
Swords Dance Sneasel must be able to get to +2 Atk before OHKOing Mandibuzz with or Triple Axel.​
:Slowking:
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 458-542 (116.2 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~~~
+2 252 Atk Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking: 612-722 (155.3 - 183.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
Interestingly, Swords Dance Sneasel is unable to OHKO Slowking with Knock Off unless it is at +2 Atk.​
i'm not surprised that sd sneasel needs to swords dance before getting kills since it loses power and base 95 attack isn't that special. also i really want scizor back in uu but that might not happen. however since exca dropped, there's a high chance that we get ttar or hippo in uu unless somebody does something. it would be fun to use but horrible to play against. let's do it anyways tho, #let'sletthemdrop
 

pokemonisfun

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1634085598199.png


I feel sure based on council chat that something is going to happen regarding a tiering decision.

I feel we must post about Conkeldurr here because it's garnered little discussion over the past month - a search term of "Conk" in the UU subforums brought up only a few mentions of it and nobody has been calling for a suspect test in the forums:

1634084049127.png



Nevertheless, two SCL games this past weekend have changed my mind about the status of the metagame and I firmly believe Conkeldurr is broken now and deserves a suspect test. I would push for a council ban if Conkeldurr was a drop from October ladder usage stats, but since it's not, I believe we should only do council votes in clearly extraordinary circumstances (like Arctozolt, which is when the metagame developed out of the blue).

The two SCL games I refer to are the following, with some light analysis saying why Conkeldurr is broken:
1) Adaam vs umbry : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-585266

Adaam is the Conkeldurr user here and Conkeldurr already has a seemingly overwhelming match up on preview, as Facade is nearly impossible to switch into and Conkeldurr has several openings on Slowking, Tangrowth and Excadrill. The moment Conkeldurr comes in on a nice double switch on turn 10 - important as it provides evidence pivoting isn't even needed to break with Conkeldurr - it wreaks havoc and Umbry almost instantly is put in an awful position. Conkeldurr's above average physical bulk for a breaker comes into play vs Mienshao, allowing Adaam to stay in vs Mienshao (luckily for him, his opponent didn't predict the crit) and finish off Mandibuzz.

An unlucky Flame Body burn on Mienshao for Umbry makes her bad position basically completely loss, as a burned Mienshao gave Conekeldurr another opening. But to be clear: even before the Flame Body, Conkeldurr was already a broken presence and gave Adaam a huge advantage by killing Mandibuzz. Conkeldurr had support from Moltres' U-Turn and Bulu's Grassy Surge but it frankly didn't need any of that - just once smart turn by Adaam, enabled by Bulu's surprise Megahorn, let Adaam get a decisive advantage with Conkeldurr.

In short, Conkeldurr is too strong here (broken) and shouldn't be giving anyone such an advantage with so little effort.


2) 100%GXE vs Bushtush : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-585334

Conkeldurr was even worse in this game, supported by arguably the best pivot we have, Slowking. To be clear, when I say pivot, I mean a Pokemon that can use a move that forces the user to switch out to get in a teammate safely.

The fact that Conkeldurr fearlessly switches into a bulky Psychic on turn 2 to threten to OHKO it is already a little disturbing, but that it did it with Future Sight up against Conkeldurr's team is really something else. Honestly, it speaks to how defensive cores and pivots like Chansey and Slowking may be broken right now.

The game is simply Bushtush trying, largely unsuccessfully, to dance around the Conkeldurr. On turn 6, despite having two nominally good Fighting responses (Slowking and Moltres), Bushtush is forced to give up a Pokemon to a completely average level but still excellent yielding prediction by 100%GXE. It really doesn't take a genius to click Facade there as Sneasel was unlikely to stay in to say the least, but what was Bushtush supposed to do? Switch in Excadrill as a normal resist?

Slowking pivot support proves incredibly powerful for Conkeldurr once again on turn 21 once again and Conkeldurr simply claims one vs Sneasel, Bushtush is too loathe to give up Sneasel as it's his main win condition as Kommo-o later proves it cannot break Chansey. This is another huge moment for Conkeldurr and with good play, 100%GXE should basically never lose from there. But even though it's a huge moment for Conkeldurr, it's hardly masterful play from 100%GXE - clicking Teleport into a ridiculously powerful Close Combat was free and winning.

I'm not criticizing him, I'm criticizing Conkeldurr for warping the metagame such that it not only rewards such mindless play, but it makes it an optimal strategy because it's so strong and broken.


In short, these games have made me rethink the metagame and I think the most pressing issue is Conkeldurr right now in terms of the metagame. In terms of good tiering practices, I still believe we must take action on Latias as it was a council unban and we should have more power to control council decisions than usage drops.

I may post more about my own philosophy/mental framework of how I see tiering decisions (council decisions vs public decisions vs usage drops; close vs not close votes, etc.) but for now, I'd like to focus on Conkeldurr.
 
I'm not entirely sure if Conk is broken as of now but I certainly oppose a possible ban on it until more time has passed and/or more pressing issues are dealt with if the community thinks they are more problematic (Latias and slowking are the main two). Now Conk is a very dangerous wallbreaker that has no switch-ins, but we have had conk for a long time and it hasn't been, well, great. Its low speed means often it will have to take a hit before dealing damage in return, and with lots of faster threats that can hit it hard I haven't had too much problems dealing with it really on more offensive teams. The SCL games certainly show Conk's devastating power, but this really feels like the Roserade situation we had back a month ago.

Conk in general wasn't on the mind of a lot of players, being that there were stronger fighters and the presence of Buzzwole in the past meta. Like Rose, what I saw was an underprepared for threat putting in work in 2 games on a high level, making its presence known and to be accounted for in the future. It took advantage of the fatter teams going around and went crazy. I don't really feel comfortable banning Conk after only two, albeit well done games. I just don't believe the sample size is enough to make me 100% confident Conk needs a ban and believe a near future decision on it isn't the best thing. Also, as I alluded to above, Latias is another potentially broken Pokemon that could leave before Conk, opening up teambuilding a lot with threats like Salamence, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, and more getting better from its possible departure.

So now to make this post not entirely just principle ideology of wanting to wait a bit to ban a mon after literally two fucking games where it goes ham, down below is a list of potential checks to Conkeldurr. It has no switch-ins, but the same way other slow wallbreakers like Azumarill and Crawdaunt are dealt with its best to keep up the offensive pressure.


I'm probably missing a few Pokemon but I just went with anything I would put B+ and higher on the VR even after shifts. This list is probably going to get torn apart by somebody but idc, all of these Pokemon are strong enough to deal heavy damage to Conk to either KO it or weaken it for other faster threats like Bulu, rotoms, aegi, shao, etc to finish it off. Conk gets worn down quite easily if it doesn't get the chance to click drain punch, so fat grasses can help chip it down with rocky helmet.

tl;dr- I oppose a ban on Conkeldurr FOR NOW as I believe its finally begun to be accounted for in teambuilding and would give it more time before getting the boot. Its an uncounterable beast, but other threats like SD Diggers and Azu also have little counters and have been fine in the experience of many others. If a few weeks go by and it is still fucking shit up then go for it, but for now I'd hold off on it. If we really, really want to examine it then pull what NU did for Snorlax and ban it but immediately retest it so it doesn't fuck up tours if that's what the larger playerbase wants.
 
If I'm reading this right, you're wondering why Amoonguss is UU over Vileplume?

The answer lies mainly in Amoonguss's ability, Regenerator, which is one of the best abilities you can ask for on a defensive pivot like itself. Regenerator allows it to restore health by switching, which means it doesn't have to waste turns to use - and dedicate a moveslot to and rely on the PP of - a recovery move (Strength Sap or Synthesis in Vileplume's case). Additionally, Amoonguss's superior bulk and access to Spore and Foul Play should not be overlooked either.

I hope that answers your question, though you should probably ask questions like this in the SQSA thread next time around.
No no no, I'm sorry, I meant why is Amoongus slumming it up with us in UU instead of being a rock star in OU.

(the Vileplume comment was more of a tongue in check allusion towards my own bitterness on my favorite mon being literally outclassed at his one job lol)
 
No no no, I'm sorry, I meant why is Amoongus slumming it up with us in UU instead of being a rock star in OU.
to make a long story short Amoongus does not meet the OU cutoff to be OU and two isn't very good in the current OU environment we have right now. If stuff is good in OU, it will eventually rise to OU through usage, which Amoongus doesn't meet the criteria for.
 

Estarossa

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No no no, I'm sorry, I meant why is Amoongus slumming it up with us in UU instead of being a rock star in OU.

(the Vileplume comment was more of a tongue in check allusion towards my own bitterness on my favorite mon being literally outclassed at his one job lol)
If vileplume really is your favourite Pokemon it would be prudent of me to point out that he isn’t actually wholly outclassed by Amoonguss in UU.

vileplume has some important niches over amoonguss that give it a place on very bulky teams. It compresses amoongs useful typing but in exchange for regenerator it offers some key movepool additions that provide a definite amount of value - aromatherapy lets it act as a cleric, opening up moveslotslike Toxic umbreon and rocks/confide chansey, moonblast lets it check kommo o instead of being set up fodder and check certain hydreigons and a stronger special attack means it can take on amoonguss and absorb its spores and be harder to switch into for pokemon like latias. Finally effect spore lets it permanently punish Pokemon like mienshao that can be impossible to reliably punish for fatter teams once it has knocked rocky helmets off Pokemon like amoong.

I hope this helps explain vileplumes niche to you, it’s worth exploring on semi stall teams and fat balances!
 

Twilight

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I think taking action on Conkeldurr is hasty off of the first week (I think) in SCL with new drops. From those replays, GXE was the person that prepared hard for Conkeldurr with having a Neutralizing Gas GWeezing and a Colbur Slowking. I assume Umbry's Slowking was FS, but I can't say for sure. Naturally, it makes sense that if you are going to run a Slowking without Psychic then you're risking giving free turns to any strong Fighter wallbreaker that gets a free switch to threaten you. GXE could have achieved the same thing with a LO Mienshao or even Heracross (something I have been testing on ladder) on turn 2. Bushtush did get an unlucky crit against him that made it easier for Conkeldurr but given his Mandibuzz and Slowking are walled by it + Sneasel and Excadrill let it in via a free switch (Double TP in this case), I'd argue this team would lose to it regardless. This is just a not accounting for the Pokemon enough more than Conkeldurr is broken imo, though one could argue Teleport is another factor that enabled this to go so smoothly.

In Adaam's game, he played well to get Conkeldurr into positions to wallbreak. He applied appropriate pressure with Moltres spamming U-turn on a team that essentially has Slowking and Latias as the Flying resist. He made good doubles to take advantage of the Mandibuzz. If he had a Mienshao in this game I'd say there is a good chance it would have been just as obnoxious when the Fighting resists are both weak to U-turn and Knock Off. I'm personally not convinced that these Fighting-types have fully been accounted for yet, which is fine given the metagame is brand new.

Due to the surge of strong Fighters with the loss of Buzzwole I have been opting for more physically defensive Slowking with Colbur. Conkeldurr is the primary reason for this but this set also helps combat Mienshao, Excadrill, and Mamoswine better. We saw several times Conkeldurr taking advantage of Mandibuzz but we have yet to see people adapt and try to run Brave Bird on it with minor Phys Def (perfectly viable spread). Skarmory could also consider running Brave Bird right now. I feel like there is a lot more that could still be explored before we jump the gun on Conkeldurr. My post probably undermines Conk a fair amount but I do agree it's an insane breaker right now especially with how these new drops warp building to feel slower and bulkier to account for all of them. I'd rather wait at least another week or two before looking at this Pokemon.

I do believe something needs to be suspected soon because building is far too restricting. I'd much rather see Latias suspect tested personally because it + Hydra in the builder is ridiculous. Checks to Hydra lose to Latias and vice versa for a vast majority of them. The main exception being like Chansey. Imo one of them needs to gtfo and it should probably be the one brought down via a council vote.
 
Hi all, I was thinking about the best ways to counter the new threats in the tier in Latias + Hydreigon as well as sand + Excadrill, and my mind happened upon hail. It turns out even without Arctozolt, hail is REALLY good right now! Here's the team I've been using, shot me up to close to 1500 on the ladder very quickly on my alt with almost no thought needed:

:ss/Abomasnow: :ss/Arctovish: :ss/Sandslash-Alola: :ss/Froslass: :ss/Kommo-o: :ss/Azumarill:

https://pokepast.es/32c15a9edf81a22d

Abomasnow is the mandatory hail setter but also matches up very well vs the common lead Krookodile. Arctovish and Alolan Sandslash are there to abuse hail. I opted for a Focus Sash on Alolan Sandslash so that it doesn't flop against Conkeldurr and Keldeo. Eartrhquake was also chosen on Alolan Sandslash to give a neutral hit on Keldeo while still KOing Nihilego. Frosslass is the alternate lead and gets up spikes while potentially removing a threat or slowing one down, and Excadrill cannot spin its spikes away! Clangorous Soul Kommo-o provides a bulky special sweeper that smashes just about anything outside of the special walls. Thanks to Overcoat, it also gives the team a free Amoonguss switch-in, and allows Kommo-o to be unaffected by hail itself. Originally, Azumarill was a Choice Band Haxorus, but the team was too weak against Conkeldurr and Primarina there, so I opted for Belly Drum Azumarill to give the team a resist to Mach Punch and a neutrality to Primarina's Moonblast + resist to Water STAB. Azu also loves being able to set up Belly Drum more safely behind Aurora Veil.


Overall, from my very early impressions, hail looks to be quite viable right now, and I encourage others to try it :)
Hey, so I've been using this team and it works really well rn! Even some pretty bad mispredictions I made didn't make me lose the games I played. The only thing I changed was that I replaced Frosslass for Utility Mandibuzz, since the team was very vulnerable to stealth rock.
 

Notily

dirt rich
i dont think latias is actually broken in practice, but i think the strain it places on building makes it unhealthy. it has so many options that accounting for all (or almost all) sets is really difficult imo, especially when you take into account how easy it is to support through spikes / phazing / knock. i'm mainly referring to the LO 3atks set pif mentioned but i think cm sets paired with proper support can be brutal to check long term.

some other stuff i've enjoyed using:

:stakataka:
Stakataka @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
stakataka is probably one of the more reliable lati switchins given it really only fears surf on specs sets. in general its just a fat fuck who gets em up and does a decent job at pressuring the tiers removal as long as you have something to deny skarm spikes.

:mamoswine:
Mamoswine @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
someone else mentioned mamo and i agree that its pretty solid rn. ice shard is really valuable priority in a lati tier and bulkier teams seeing more usage means mamo gets more opportunities to break stuff + rotom forms declining is really good for it. ive been liking cb more than lo lately because the recoil damage is a pain when compounded w/ hazards and helmet chip. also lets you pick off stuff w/ shard from higher ranges and makes fishing for flinches on skarm on option given you have a 1/5 chance of 2hkoing it w/ rocks up

:thundurus-therian:
Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Knock Off
gets lots of chances to volt vs fatter teams and does a great job of pressuring teams with exca as the ground. also punishes lati w/ knock and removes items from chansey / the grasses which is valuable for a lot of mons rn. bonus points for pressuring conk well and not being vulnerable to mach
 
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