np: SS UU Stage 10 - Airplanes (Latias Retest)

Status
Not open for further replies.

pokemonisfun

Free chess/UU tutoring for UU players Neigh. Perf.
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
:latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias::latias:

Regarding how strong Latias is, I've talked about one set I think is broken in this post where I refer to other posts that people made already. In short, Latias constrains building and can get past too many of its checks and counters too easily. I'm cherrypicking one of my ladder wins here with Latias but even so, it shows how Latias can get past its checks: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1436237800-lojicnmd1ankule28d4luebby5bczznpw. Again, this is a best case scenario for Latias but that it is achieveable against nominally good Latias checks like Aegislash, disturbs me.

So moving on from Latias itself, the question is what action to take. We were given these four options:

1) Latias: Quickban
2) Latias: Quickban into immediate retest (makes it unusable in SCL/Majors while still giving it a suspect test)
3) Latias: Suspect test
4) Latias: Do not ban

I ended up choosing option 2) as the first choice and option 3) as the second choice.

All of this is removed from the substance of Latias in the tier, I think the argument has already been made that Latias is suspect worthy because it's broken and overly constrains the builder. I don't believe it's possible to make a good bulky offense/balance that isn't weak to a top threat which disturbs me but understand if people think that's okay or even inaccurate.

I really wanted to vote for 3) and kind of just say that the council doesn't really deserve two bites at this apple; why are they allowed to vote twice?

Well the obvious response to that question is, now we have more knowledge, two weeks of Latias in our tier.

And I couldn't think of any good comeback to that response, it's just how our system works, if we make quick bans and unbans, we have to acknowledge sometimes we will regret our decisions because we didn't have enough experience. Other benefits of the quick ban is that I believe its what SCL and majors players will want, it will make those tournaments better, and if 3) wins, I want to send a sign to UU players that the experienced players think Latias is broken.

In my mind, the only logical way to vote 3) as a first option is that you don't think Latias is broken but you want to give the public a chance. Or that you do think Latias is broken, but want to mess with SCL and majors players.

However, I did vote 3) as a second option, not because of the reasons above, but because I believe we need to involve the public in this, there's really no reason not to as the time for pure council votes is over - we should only do standalone council votes after tier shifts or when something blatant and unexpected develops (like Arctozolt teams developing very much out of the blue).

Thus, my voting option is to quick ban Latias but only if we get a suspect test afterwards. Otherwise, I rather just do a regular suspect test.
 

Lily

dreaming of sleighs
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
UU Leader
So as promised, it's been two weeks (and a couple extra days); we're gonna revisit the Latias decision.

For those who don't want to explore further reasoning: Latias is being quickbanned and immediately retested from UUBL, meaning it will be suspect tested & available on ladder, but not in tournaments such as SCL or UU Majors Playoffs. Not sure if this needs to be implemented anywhere, but I'll ping Kris just in case, sorry!



In-depth reasoning:
Latias proved to be powerful as expected if not more. While it's generally agreed that its game-to-game presence is not entirely overwhelming, Latias has a profound effect in the teambuilder and many have been left scrambling for checks, a lot of which aren't even consistently strong answers thanks to Latias's immense versatility. We've seen usage of Pokemon like Sylveon, Diancie and Stakataka; these would arguably be unviable if not for Latias's presence, displaying the limitations it places on teambuilding. For a large majority of the council & a significant portion of the general playerbase, this impact was enough to want to get rid of Latias after getting the opportunity to use it for a couple of weeks.

Latias is certainly imperfect; it can't always run all the moves it wants, and its defensive utility is marred by the fact that it can't switch into all that many offensive Pokemon reliably, only really answers Nasty Plot Thundurus-T. It gets opportunities to switch in on some defensive options like Skarmory and Rotom-W, but they can punish it too; Toxic from both is a death knell, and the latter can even Volt Switch out and force Latias to take chip damage for little gain.

Ultimately this was contentious; there are plenty of strong points in favour of and against Latias's ban, and the council near-unanimously agreed that this should be a community decision. As such, rather than quickbanning it outright, we want to put this to a vote. So starting from now, Latias is being suspect tested!

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430


Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU10L (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU10L ily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Sunday, October 31st at 7:00 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!
 
I ended thinking Latias is a bit too much for UU.
Latias gives a good ability to check many offensive and defensive threats in one slot. Most offensive threats lose 1v1 against her. Defensive ones dislike trick or boosted moves.
She can lures spec or scarf with soul dew and expert belt.
Its speed is godtier and she's not too weak to priority. Sucker punch is rarely used in UU only Ice shard from Mamoswine is common.
In utility Latias provided defog and healing wish.
Psyshock gives a tool to break Chansey.
You can't scout Latias without takes serious hits. Most of the rimes you need 2 dedicated checks because Latias has a great longevity with roost.
She weakens too easily oppenant team and she's not a glass canon at all.
 

KM

slayification
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
i have weird feelings about this suspect test, but to start i want to make it clear -- lati is /one/ of the things making UU not great right now and I'll be voting ban

the reason it feels weird is because, as someone simultaneously playing the meta with Lati (suspect ladder, casual laddering) and someone playing tons of test games with people in the no-Lati meta for SCL and Majors, it simultaneously feels like Lati is broken in the meta with it and that the meta isn't really fixed or healthy in the meta without it. This doesn't change my opinion that Lati is overly constraining in the teambuilder, a bit too powerful, and not healthy for the meta, but I think it's important for me to make it clear that I don't think the meta will be in a good place after this ban either, and that more action is required in my eyes to fix the tier. Here are some mons I'd strongly support taking action on / looking at after the Latias suspect and (hopefully) ban, in rough order.

:ss/slowking: Slowking

Slowking, in my eyes, is an actively unhealthy and damaging part of the current UU metagame. its impact is twofold -- it enables a lot of broken strategies like FS +fighting spam, conk bonk 3000, simply just pivoting on everything, and it also invalidates so many otherwise relevant and healthy threats to the metagame. a huge example of this is CM+sub keldeo -- a previously cool slightly off-meta pick that gets 100% invalidated by slowking even with perfect prediction because it can simply hard switch in, future sight, click scald or slack off, and then teleport out to one of any number of mons (scarf zarude, psyshock zelf, tornadus, zyg...) that offensively pressure keldeo risk-free as Future Sight breaks the sub. to be clear, the point I'm making here isn't "slowking is unhealthy because it makes subcm keld bad", it's that slowking's access to FS + regen + teleport+slack nullifies a lot of the normal inherent weaknesses with bulky passive mons and makes so many lines that are entirely risk free. slowking heavily contributes to the current meta where the only offensive pokemon worth running are the ones with enough inherent power to make progress against slowking and friends -- and the power to singlehandedly turn matchups into risk free teleportfests + breaker is both actively unfun and inarguably one of the best playstyles in the tier right now.

======= HUGE GAP =========

:ss/hydreigon: Hydreigon

This one is largely in reaction to latias hypothetically getting banned. over the course of test games this week, hydra has proven to be a threat to most teams I build -- especially those without explicit answers like rest talk prim or chansey (both of whom can lose to certain sets themselves). this one would definitely need more time to determine first of all, but its versatility and power makes theorized issues with 4mss feel less like "what do i want to give up" and more like "what good set do i want to run".

:ss/kommo-o: :ss/thundurus-therian:

these two are both things that probably should have gotten looked at had shifts not occurred -- but they still remain huge threats. they're not as obviously broken as others, but they both feel constraining in the builder and oftentimes I find myself simply accepting the fact that I lose to a certain set of thundurus coverage or specific mixed clanger set. would love to talk about these two at a later date once the meta settles more


to be clear, this isn't a call for a quickban on all these mons -- my personal opinion would probably somewhere along the lines of "ban lati, ban slowking, suspect hydra, wait a bit and then suspect the other two" -- but i just want to make it clear that there are several problematic influences on this tier right now and that latias is just one of them.
 
I've been playing UU for a month or so and made it to 1500+ recently, and I wanted to share my thoughts about the current state of the meta.

Latias is really strong, no doubt: can cripple walls with trick, has good defensive utility and great offensive tools. Should we then ban latias? No! In fact, I believe we need more Latias-like pokemon in UU. The metagame is way too stally. There are too many hyper-strong defensive options that synergize well with each other. Most games end up lasting over 60 turns, and Pokemon like Latias make it way more manageable.

Latias screenshots, images and pictures - Giant Bomb


Special attention to Slowking. Slowking provides too much for very little risk. It's almost impossible to punish it, as long as he takes less than 1/3 with your attack (and given Slowking massive bulk is the most common scenario), it grants the Slowking user a free switch with no punish whatsoever. It encourages a slow-paced, unfun, unskilled, and reactive play that makes games unreasonably slow. Plus, Slowking has the amazing Future Sight. To sum up: Slowking offers too much for very little and makes every game it appears less fun.

shiny pokemon johtoweek gif | WiffleGif


I would even say the problem isn't Slowking itself, but regenerator as a whole when combined with tp. Chansey+Tangrowth is a common core based on the same principle, which is really hard to break. Honorable mention to a Amoonguss. Maybe we need a complex ban, similar to one of the first iterations of Baton Pass ban (limit the amount of Regenerator users per team) or a complex ban, banning running tp and regenerator in the same set.

Right now, I believe we need a Slowking/Regenerator ban way more than we need a Latias ban. UU has Mandibuzz, Celesteela, Skarmory, Swampert, Amoonguss,Tangrowth, Chansey, Aegislash... And that's why Conkeldurr has skyrocketed in usage. We need more strong attackers. I honestly think it's time to retest Terrakion, Hawlucha, Dracozolt etc.

Terrakion - Pokemon Black and White Wiki Guide - IGN
 
i have weird feelings about this suspect test, but to start i want to make it clear -- lati is /one/ of the things making UU not great right now and I'll be voting ban

the reason it feels weird is because, as someone simultaneously playing the meta with Lati (suspect ladder, casual laddering) and someone playing tons of test games with people in the no-Lati meta for SCL and Majors, it simultaneously feels like Lati is broken in the meta with it and that the meta isn't really fixed or healthy in the meta without it. This doesn't change my opinion that Lati is overly constraining in the teambuilder, a bit too powerful, and not healthy for the meta, but I think it's important for me to make it clear that I don't think the meta will be in a good place after this ban either, and that more action is required in my eyes to fix the tier. Here are some mons I'd strongly support taking action on / looking at after the Latias suspect and (hopefully) ban, in rough order.

:ss/slowking: Slowking

Slowking, in my eyes, is an actively unhealthy and damaging part of the current UU metagame. its impact is twofold -- it enables a lot of broken strategies like FS +fighting spam, conk bonk 3000, simply just pivoting on everything, and it also invalidates so many otherwise relevant and healthy threats to the metagame. a huge example of this is CM+sub keldeo -- a previously cool slightly off-meta pick that gets 100% invalidated by slowking even with perfect prediction because it can simply hard switch in, future sight, click scald or slack off, and then teleport out to one of any number of mons (scarf zarude, psyshock zelf, tornadus, zyg...) that offensively pressure keldeo risk-free as Future Sight breaks the sub. to be clear, the point I'm making here isn't "slowking is unhealthy because it makes subcm keld bad", it's that slowking's access to FS + regen + teleport+slack nullifies a lot of the normal inherent weaknesses with bulky passive mons and makes so many lines that are entirely risk free. slowking heavily contributes to the current meta where the only offensive pokemon worth running are the ones with enough inherent power to make progress against slowking and friends -- and the power to singlehandedly turn matchups into risk free teleportfests + breaker is both actively unfun and inarguably one of the best playstyles in the tier right now.

======= HUGE GAP =========

:ss/hydreigon: Hydreigon

This one is largely in reaction to latias hypothetically getting banned. over the course of test games this week, hydra has proven to be a threat to most teams I build -- especially those without explicit answers like rest talk prim or chansey (both of whom can lose to certain sets themselves). this one would definitely need more time to determine first of all, but its versatility and power makes theorized issues with 4mss feel less like "what do i want to give up" and more like "what good set do i want to run".

:ss/kommo-o: :ss/thundurus-therian:

these two are both things that probably should have gotten looked at had shifts not occurred -- but they still remain huge threats. they're not as obviously broken as others, but they both feel constraining in the builder and oftentimes I find myself simply accepting the fact that I lose to a certain set of thundurus coverage or specific mixed clanger set. would love to talk about these two at a later date once the meta settles more


to be clear, this isn't a call for a quickban on all these mons -- my personal opinion would probably somewhere along the lines of "ban lati, ban slowking, suspect hydra, wait a bit and then suspect the other two" -- but i just want to make it clear that there are several problematic influences on this tier right now and that latias is just one of them.
Slowking is so unhealthy. It's kind of unreal for me why are testing Latias and not Slowking/Regenerator+tp. I Agree Kommo o is really strong too and sometimes overlooked, but disagree on Thundurus. Thundy seems easy to check
 

Twilight

is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
I don't plan to talk too much about Latias but my general sentiment on the subject is that it is more detrimental than beneficial for the tier. Its checks are limited and the Speed tier forces the need for Choice Scarf users capable of revenge killing or forcing it out because the overall Speed tier of UU is fairly low. I've only really been impressed with its 3 Attacks set but it alone has essentially one reliable counter in Chansey. Its other sets have notable downsides e.g. Specs and Scarf being choice-locked or CM having 4MSS, though it does make some of its checks vary. CM Roost is able to set up against bulky Primarina for example. I intend to vote ban myself.

KM mentioned this Pokemon in his post but after Latias goes I feel more discussion needs to take place on Thundurus-T. I laddered solely with HO for my reqs using Thundurus-T and it's ridiculous. Most of my success with that team was because this Pokemon just claims in basically any matchup lacking Latias to pivot in. If Latias gets booted then the NP set opens it up even further. Thundurus-T counterplay involves trading health with your walls/sacking to revenge after, trying to put it on a timer, or hoping it misses Focus Blast. Without the Nasty Plot boost, there isn't much safely able to pivot into it besides AV Tangrowth, Nihilego, and Chansey. Once it gets that chance to Nasty Plot it proceeds to break through everything. If Chansey comes in as you plot then the most you do is Toxic or TP. Regardless it results in either 2HKOing it or chunking it for 50% for free. The faster Pokemon capable of limiting it are honestly scarce right now. Keldeo is a lot worse and Zarude takes a bit of a hit with how splashable it is. The council should keep a very close eye on it once this current suspect is over imo.

In regard to Slowking, I can't say I share the sentiment that it is a problematic element within the tier. I personally believe it is slightly overrated, but this doesn't mean it isn't one of the premier defensive pivots within the tier. I can't say I'd ever ban it but if the majority speaks out about wanting to suspect it then I wouldn't particularly oppose it.
 

Estarossa

grater demon
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
:ss/thundurus-therian:

I very much agree with the sentiment that Thundurus-T is honestly a problem right now, but will likely continue to be an even bigger problem in a post-Latias metagame unless it somehow miraculously increases the splashability of mons like Zarude and NIhilego. For a while in this metagame i've honestly been saying Thundurus-T is like absurdly difficult to deal with and kinda broken into any non Latias matchup, forcing you to either go out of your way to fit Pokemon like NIhilego that have taken a general hit lately, fit scarfers that can revenge kill it, most of which just flat out can't switch in even on predicted resisted moves because of Knock Off, or some specific faster mons that can revenge it but are still not switching in in any world, while Thundy generates crazy amounts of opportunities for itself lately. Latias really does feel like your only real safe option to switch in atm, and even that really dislikes taking knocks/u-turns if it turns out to not be NP. The set differences here end up making it even more annoying in reality.

-----

To keep more on topic to Latias, I personally dont actually find it necessarily as hard to deal with as a lot of People claim. While obviously people will assume this is due to me loving fatter teams atm, where you have amazing answers like Umb and Chansey that fit super easily, I have been using a lot of more offensive teams too, and don't find i'm really being forced to necessarily actually go out of my way to fit multiple resistances and checks with options like Hatterene, Jirachi, Aegislash etc being incredible Pokemon right now, and Slowking obviously being one of the most splashable Pokemon in the tier in general between it checking half the tier and having that disgusting regen teleport combo, and I don't really see a Latias ban particularly effecting my usage of Slowking.

While Latias has the potential to blow through a lot of its standard checks with solid prediction, its still very much an unrealistic scenario with a lot of prediction heavy turns, and Latias gets more limited opportunities to freely come in without having to Recover after than it'd like. Teams still have solid options to use that don't just get destroyed by the right coverage move being clicked too, 3 potential nice options here includde Hatt/AV Gbro/Tport Chansey. Hatterene is a great mon rn that pairs amazingly with stuff like Drill to cover the Skarm issue, and happens to a really nice option vs Latias between Nuzzle ruining it and draining kiss typically healing off any damage it can actually do to u, AV glowbro is a cool option that not only checks Lati well and still breaks through spa drops / cms because of SSA, and has use vs other stuff too like Kommo-o, Primarina, taking out a weakened NP thundy etc, and Teleport Chansey is a nice option in general to cover for inherent weaknesses a team might pick up to all sorts of special attacks besides Lati, eg. hydra/prim/nidok.

Nothing ive said here detracts from the fact Latias is one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier, and a very splashable option, but I do believe it to be more easily to handle in the builder than people claim, and think in practice it often ends up being easier to deal with than it looks on paper once you start stacking shit like Slowking + Excadrill + Scarf Jirachi and make all of its moves harder to click and punishable for the wrong one, even if you aren't using some of the hard-stop answers that more BO'y teams can run.

While I think its one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier, and think it definitely has an effect on teambuilding as any top Pokemon - eg. Slowking, also would, (which I don't really buy the unhealthy arguement for atm), I do find that a lot of my teams naturaly end up stacking answers without necessarily going out of the way to, though maybe this is just an aspect of me as a builder giving me a bias.

I also think it has some really healthy benefits to the tier, especially as a splashable speed control option hitting that 350 tier without needng to use one of our rather limited range of scarfers that are either not the easiest to fit (shao), or would rather run better sets (hydra). I like Scarf Jirachi but its honestly the only one I do actually like atm. This really opens up options, especially for balances and beyond, and something like a Latias + priority is hoenstly often sufficient if teams aren't that slow and don't end up with some glaring weaknesses, while Latias + some form of DD-control, eg. Umb/Mandi is almost certainly sufficient on fatter teams.

If i find the time to get reqs, I fully intend to vote DNB. Not so sure I will find the time to do a like 5-6+ hour commitment like that when i'm writing my thesis atm however.
 
Good day/noon/evening/night UU aka UnderUsed Community, I would like to give my two cents on the meta as a whole, the Lati test ongoing atm that I write this and what I would like to see on the future to try to get this tier to a way better place. (Starting this kind of posts always felt weird)

:hydreigon: THE CURRENT STATE :skarmory:
To summarize a bit, the UU tier rn feels like a big mess. It really isn't in a horribly broken or unplayable state like at the start of Crown Tundra, but building can be hellish as you can't really comfortably cover for everything at least in a reasonable way, not only when covering offensive threats like the fighters + dragonspam and old faces like Thundurus and Primarina, but also the incredibly centralizing nature of slowing and skarm spikes which can invalidate a ton of shit, a suspect test early in the meta was definitively necessary as things are overtly uncomfortable especially in the building department.

However I would say nothing feels traditionally broken, Lati and Hydra are manageable on their own but when together you get led to builds that get abused by mainly Conk, The big clown in itself is unwallable as ever and loving all of them pivoting and fat builds, and classifying defensive threats as broken always gets a little awkward IMO. Which gets me to the next point.

:latias: LATIAS TEST :latias:
As I said something has gotta go and I do think that the council made a correct decision by targeting Lati first. If going by the most traditionally broken Conk should've been tested first but A. Latias was a council drop that was promised action upon. and B. We already know due to our previous meta that Conk can be a fine presence in SS UU with the right environment, which we do not have for Latias.

While Lati does have its fair share of counterplay not only can it get past it with correct predictions thanks to its flavorful coverage and different sets (like CM destroying standard sylveon/rina and non status slowking) but also due to the fact that a lot of standard counterplay is forced into predictable patterns of play and being highly abusable in general, I also think Latias is overtly centralizing by being the premier option of speed control and breaking power while also killing many viable mons in the process. Which IMO can't be said of the other possibly banworthy threats I mentioned before.

In maybe another time I think Latias could be in the tier and be a healthy presence but the strain of many threats in the tier rn is just too much, If you couldn't guess or just didn't read the previous paragraph I'll be voting BAN, but after this the meta won't be solved as previous posts have alluded to and I also have my takes on that.

:conkeldurr: THE FUTURE OF LATI TEST :slowking:
Whether Latias gets banned or not we should keep a close eye on Slowking, the incredibly big presence of this pivot aka the teleport machine aka the CEO of momentum not only centralizes offensive threats around itself but it also accentuates the power of some already powerful mons in Thundy and Conkeldurr. If you ask me this guy over here is the main reason why these previously mid-tier breakers are becoming problems in the eyes of the people, Future Sight + Tport isn't taking every team by storm because Slowking itself is the best (and really only reliable way other than specific fat mons like Umbreon) to handle it which is iffy in on itself. This might only get worse since lati is one of the main reasons to use a status move on the king. Other than that Conk is very worth to look into if the airplane doesn't get banned but I really don't believe Thundy is, as I believe that its just a symptom of the two broken psychics basically killing Nihi and Keldeo which were incredibly reliable at keeping it bay and also the focus that the tier has on Skarm + Slowking teams.

Thanks for reading the paragraphs of rambling and hope we can reach a state where the majority is happy!
 

pokemonisfun

Free chess/UU tutoring for UU players Neigh. Perf.
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I also think it has some really healthy benefits to the tier, especially as a splashable speed control option hitting that 350 tier without needng to use one of our rather limited range of scarfers that are either not the easiest to fit (shao), or would rather run better sets (hydra). I like Scarf Jirachi but its honestly the only one I do actually like atm. This really opens up options, especially for balances and beyond, and something like a Latias + priority is hoenstly often sufficient if teams aren't that slow and don't end up with some glaring weaknesses, while Latias + some form of DD-control, eg. Umb/Mandi is almost certainly sufficient on fatter teams.
I don't plan to talk too much about Latias but my general sentiment on the subject is that it is more detrimental than beneficial for the tier.
I'm slightly nitpicking here and responding to only a minor point both Esta and Twilight made - go ahead and read their entire post for further context - but I wanted to highlight that their reasoning here, if taken at face value, goes against Smogon tiering philosophy, which says we should try to ban threats only if they are broken (too strong), uncompetitive (too haxy) or unhealthy (least well defined but generally undesirable for the metagame).

To Esta's point of Latias helping out balance, we shouldn't be crutching or seeking at all to benefit playstyles in my view. If balance dies out (and I am not implying it is or is not), then so be it, it just stopped being a good way to play much like how Rain stall stopped being viable after generation 6 began or how stall is weaker in gen5uu. I would say the same thing to GoragarX - we should not crutch balance nor should we, as they suggest, try to nerf bulky balance/stall unless it's overpowered. We strive to only ban individual Pokemon and we only do so when they are too strong or too haxy (or unhealthy as a last resort).

Anyways, you can have whatever reasoning you have in your mind as you vote and nobody can stop you, but I just wanted to remind voters that we
don't make tiering decisions based on what an individual Pokemon brings to a metagame; we make the decision mostly on whether it's too strong or not for the tier.

A reasoning that much more aligns with Smogon tiering philosophy is what KM said, that even if the metagame doesn't markedly improve with a Latias ban (or no ban if that's your opinion), he will still vote that way because Latias has achieved a broken level of power:

i have weird feelings about this suspect test, but to start i want to make it clear -- lati is /one/ of the things making UU not great right now and I'll be voting ban

the reason it feels weird is because, as someone simultaneously playing the meta with Lati (suspect ladder, casual laddering) and someone playing tons of test games with people in the no-Lati meta for SCL and Majors, it simultaneously feels like Lati is broken in the meta with it and that the meta isn't really fixed or healthy in the meta without it. This doesn't change my opinion that Lati is overly constraining in the teambuilder, a bit too powerful, and not healthy for the meta, but I think it's important for me to make it clear that I don't think the meta will be in a good place after this ban either, and that more action is required in my eyes to fix the tier. Here are some mons I'd strongly support taking action on / looking at after the Latias suspect and (hopefully) ban, in rough order.
 
I thought lati is not broken in UU. It is true that lati has so many options and it is hard to check all options by one pokemon‛s one set. But when I play in ladder‚ I found some bad points in lati.

First, all lati can be killed by physical move. It cant survive Exca‛s max Atk rapid spin + eq if lati runs LO. Ofc 2x moves cant stop even defensive lati. And lati has no ways to raise its Def(except kee berry).

Second, some mons can check lati by changing EVs. For example‚ Krookodile can survive LO DM by sharing 128 EVs to SpD. You can bear 1.5(2 DM in a row) if you have AV. Of course some people will think it is not good idea‚ but I want to say dealing with existing options is not all and there are so many checks if you want to check which are not unviable(Im using AV krooko and its so well).

Third, lati is weak to status. Lati‛s strength is its fast speed. Para is so painful for lati and toxic is also good (it can say to other mons which dont have immunity).

Changing metagame is a good thing and I don't want to ban lati because it is not broken.
 
Last edited:
From what I gathered reading most of these, people seem to acknowledge that Latias is not banworthy with respect to the first two prongs of Smogon's tiering policy, which are "is it broken?" and "is it uncompetitive?" To me, it's clearly neither of these. There is nothing uncompetitive about Latias, and there plenty of offensive and defensive checks, albeit not perfect ones, that can manage it. Specially Defensive Jirachi, Chansey, Slowking, Celesteela, Hatterene, Sylveon, even Diancie, are just a few. And those are just standard sets without people getting more creative like udongirl 's AV Krook. Offensive checks include Zydog, Azelf w/ Gleam, scarfers like Zarude/Diggersby/Jirachi, etc.

:Jirachi: :Zygarde-10%: :Zarude: :Chansey: :Slowking: :Celesteela: :Hatterene: :Sylveon: :Diancie: :Azelf: :Stakataka:

So, there are plenty of options to check it. That just leaves the last prong of the tiering policy, which is "is it unhealthy?" I don't think anybody really knows what it means, and it seems to me we stretch it too often to get rid of things we don't want to deal with, even if they aren't centralizing the metagame. I don't think Latias centralizes the metagame, and there are actually other mons that centralize it in a more obscene matter like Slowking does. Slowking actually enables a lot of "unhealthy" play, and while I don't think it's so out of hand to ban it, I can see the metagame changing dramatically with it gone in a way more people may enjoy, while Latias being gone is not going to have as big an impact as people may think.

:Latias:

With Latias gone, I don't think the meta will change as much, because I don't see it as a centralizing force. It'll just be "one less" thing to worry about in the builder, but we should be careful about that mentality as it's very easy to get carried away and start banning things that may not be so bad in an effort to tailor the meta specifically to how we want it. To me, that's not how this should work. Maybe it is how it should work to others though, but I think if something can co-exist with everything else without getting insanely out of hand, then we should learn to accept that it's here and just plan our builds accordingly. Sometimes we all just want to build the perfect team that can check everything and solve the meta, but that isn't always going to be possible, and that's what keeps the unpredictability of mons high and interesting. I'll be voting Do Not Ban.
 
I thought lati is not broken in UU. It is true that lati has so many options and it is hard to check all options by one pokemon‛s one set. But when I play in ladder‚ I found some bad points in lati.

First, all lati can be killed by physical move. It cant survive Exca‛s max Atk rapid spin + eq if lati runs LO. Ofc 2x moves cant stop even defensive lati. And lati has no ways to raise its Def(except kee berry).

Second, some mons can check lati by changing EVs. For example‚ Krookodile can survive LO DM by sharing 128 EVs to SpD. You can bear 1.5(2 DM in a row) if you have AV. Of course some people will think it is not good idea‚ but I want to say dealing with existing options is not all and there are so many checks if you want to check which are not unviable(Im using AV krooko and its so well).

Third, lati is weak to status. Lati‛s strength is its fast speed. Para is so painful for lati and toxic is also good (it can say to other mons which dont have immunity).

Changing metagame is a good thing and I don't want to ban lati because it is not broken.
Yeah but bulk was never a huge point to Lati. In addition, AV krook is not an answer because it is one, a bad set, and two, if Latin switches out after the first draco meteor, you have no recovery and therefore no more switch in.
 
Yeah but bulk was never a huge point to Lati. In addition, AV krook is not an answer because it is one, a bad set, and two, if Latin switches out after the first draco meteor, you have no recovery and therefore no more switch in.
I know. I dont check by krook in all time‚ of course. Its just soft check so I use another check at the same time.
And you can use scarf over AV. You can take Dmeteor and revenge kill.
Finally, bulk is not most important but not small‚ at least. Lati's bulk is not bad and many chance to switch.
 
I believe latias is broken, it has a speed tier above most of the tiers pokemon and results in pokemon have to use scarf whihc are unreliable as they lose a crap ton of defensive utility such as krookodile, zarude, and jirachi as they lack recovery, and as a result cannot switch in. Many defensive Pokémon who can answer latias such as umbreon, sp. def mandibuzz, wish rachi, chansey, and slowking are bonked by its teammates such as conkeldurr, kommo-o, mienshao, and in general hate knock off which really makes it tough for them to continue to counter/check latias. Latias also has a bunch of set diversity in CM 3 attacks, Bolt beam CM, specs, scarf, and double dance are all sets I have seen on the ladder which makes it really tough to counter it with 1 Pokémon and u need to have multiple like if chansey is ur primary switch in and it gets tricked... well its free setup for most other mons, and its a momentum loss every time it wants to come in as you either lose hp trying to check latias or give something a free switch in like conkeldurr, or if slowking is and it gets CM'ed and its basically saying smth has to get sacked to it. Little things can revenge kill latias as without pursuit from krookodile they can just switch out and wreak havoc another time as it takes full advantage of slowking, skarmory, rotom-w, and non lariet bulu. Personally its pretty unhealthy as I have to shove many checks on my team just to stand a shot at not being 6-0ed by its main set and its other usable sets
 

ausma

what it be what it do
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris an Artistis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
OU Forum Leader
Hello everyone, probably didn't expect to see me back so soon

Latias is fairly hot right now and I frankly hate suspect ladders/suspecting in general so I haven't really bothered to get reqs, but I've been playing a solid amount and Latias, I feel, is a very divisive Pokemon. It has some incredibly powerful sets and it's egregious to pivot around for sure, and it maintains that defensive utility that makes Latias such a powerful Pokemon to slap on your standard offense. Let me elaborate on my thoughts and observations:

Latias Suspect
:latias:


I want to preface things by saying I do think in a vacuum Latias is healthy. Its defensive typing in tandem with Levitate and its speed tier is incredibly versatile and provides a lot of very splashable counterplay for things like Nidoking, Thundurus-T, Nihilego, and Keldeo while letting the builder in question build and play proactively. Its Choice Scarf set to me is a super flexible set that provides Healing Wish, Defog, and/or Trick depending on the needs of the team, and a valuable revenge killer that's able to slap Kommo-o and opposing non-Scarf Latias. While it is by far its least polarizing set, I would argue it's among one of its healthiest sets. Its other utility-based variants which can include things like Defog (especially cool because it as a Defogger can beat nearly every setter in the tier) or the occasional Thunder Wave also are quite nifty, though also lack that polarity.

However, it's without question that the reason Latias is so powerful and being suspected in the first place is for its offensive prowess. Between its obscene coverage to slam literally any switch-in it wants to apply pressure to at a given time, boosting, a phenomenal speed tier, and STAB Draco Meteor in a tier with sparse Draco Meteor answers (especially those that aren't weak to its coverage), it is by far one of the best plug-and-play, accessible offensive Pokemon in the tier. There are numerous sets in question that people have gotten value out of, though I definitely am in the camp of Life Orb + 3 Attacks being the most powerful. Draco Meteor + Thunderbolt in their own right cover an asinine amount of the tier, and with the added option of Mystical Fire to give it an actual way to pressure Steel-types all without needing to get an accurate prediction, positioning around it consistently without sacking a Pokemon is a monumental order unless you manage to predict correctly with offensive checks and/or pivoting moves. As a good example, Slowking, which is a Pokemon that's seen a lot of use in checking Latias, gets wiped pretty consistently by Thunderbolt on the switch-in into Draco Meteor, which can midground a potential double and force major chip damage against a Steel-type or special wall. In the absolute worst case where Draco Meteor itself won't get immediate value on a Fairy-type switch-in (which is risky as is due to Togekiss/Primarina's Thunderbolt weakness), Slowking's Regenerator has already been outdamaged by the initial Thunderbolt, making it a less reliable switch-in later. Obviously, we know all of this; I don't need to really double down much on the fact that it's a pretty hard Pokemon to deal with.

Though, I'm not quite sure how contentious this is, but I find Draco Meteor's Special Attack drop to be a much larger problem for it offensively than it's been generally made out to be, and is easily the key reason I do not find its offensive sets overbearing. It's an obscenely powerful offensive Pokemon, however with Draco Meteor essentially forcing it out once it's been used, it generally can be a loss of momentum if Draco Meteor does not pick off a Pokemon or deal any meaningful damage. Draco Meteor being a one-chance move to get right by nature, regardless of a Choice-lock or lackthereof, can lead to a sticky situation where the Latias user loses momentum, and the opponent gets the opportunity to make progress or build their own offensive advantage. Considering how Steel-types in general are so powerful in the tier as is, I don't consider this to be a gigantic issue, especially if it's forcibly chipping itself in the process with a Life Orb. Especially considering how it needs Mystical Fire to have a shot at pressuring Steel-types, and will need to forego one of its moveslots for recovery, Steel-types such as Jirachi, Aegislash, and Celesteela and other strong, general-purpose Special checks like Slowking (on the switch) and Chansey can be good at using Draco Meteor as opportunities to seize a positional advantage over the Latias user, which is exactly how Draco Meteor's drawback is meant to punish you. If you want Psychic-type STAB as your main go-to over Draco Meteor, you lose out on that immediate breaking power that makes it such an annoying Pokemon to switch into with most offensive checks available, and risk a stronger positional disadvantage to other Pokemon like Hydreigon, Galarian Slowbro, Reuniclus, and Mandibuzz. TL;DR while it offensively is in theory impossible to defensively check, Draco Meteor's drawback makes it so it isn't inherently infallible, and lets the Latias opponent then seize a positional advantage to safely and reliably make progress.

It's without question there's something(?) that's the problem here since there's so much strength in offensive structures that can wholly invalidate bulkier builds that in-turn benefits Latias; but as strong and consistent as Latias is, I do not see it as one of them. This kind of pressure inherently limits Latias's counterplay and makes it easier for the Latias user to choose and execute its moves.

Other Suspects

:kommo-o:

To me, Kommo-o is the most broken Pokemon in the tier and the one I am most in favor of seeing go. While its defensive profile certainly adds quite a bit to the tier, Kommo-o's offensive presence in the tier is absolutely absurd, and I would argue to a degree its impact in the builder and in execution tangibly benefits Latias.

With access to amazing coverage provided by access to Clanging Scales, Flamethrower, Close Combat, and Poison Jab, on top of Clangorous Soul making it so it can omniboost with ease (sometimes twice with terrain support), it's not really surprising that a majority of anti-Dragon-type oriented counterplay is so centered around consistently checking its mixed movepool. Special walls incapable of soaking Close Combat (primarily Chansey) or are incapable of punishing it (Mandibuzz) simply do not work against Kommo-o, and in my eyes I feel as though this is why there's so much emphasis on Slowking among other things, which we've established is not really a consistent Life Orb Latias answer due to Thunderbolt. The main thing holding Kommo-o back is 4MSS; losing out on either Poison Jab or Flamethrower can spell doom against Primarina/Togekiss and Skarmory/Celesteela respectively. While these respective Pokemon can block it from sweeping, actually scouting that once it gets in is essentially a coin-flip unless you are extremely aggressive against the possibility of Clangorous Soul even being on the opposing Kommo-o, which in some cases can lead to a disadvantageous position if you're up against Swords Dance or Dragon Dance. All of this, in a vacuum, applies obscene levels of pressure against Latias checks regardless of the set, which can make Latias's job a lot easier on offensive structures and lead to much more commanding Latias endgames.

In my opinion, I think Kommo-o stands out the most as the biggest problem in the tier, and I also feel its presence offensively benefits Latias due to the way it influences the presence of (or lackthereof) what would otherwise be shared checks by either applying heavy overload or limiting their utility as a whole.

:thundurus-therian:

This one is another pretty popular pick as far as potential suspects go. Due to Latias's omnipresence in the tier and some 4MSS issues which can hold it up in fairly important matchups (such as against Excadrill or Kommo-o), I am not quite sure if I am on board quite yet with it being busted, but it is a nearly uncontested Pokemon otherwise that operates very similarly to Thundurus-Incarnate as a powerful offensive pivot, but without as premium of a speed tier. Decreased use in Nihilego has benefitted it quite a bit, and in the grand scheme of things its Speed tier is still quite good, eclipsing Hydreigon among other things. It's really good and a top tier offensive pivot without a doubt, but I think I would like to see how it would fare in a metagame where there has been direct change before calling for a suspect; that, and I also haven't really run into it that much to where I'm not as comfortable making any absolute conclusions on it.

this is about it from me, best of luck to those wrapping up their suspects tonight and i look forward to seeing what happens, whether latias is banned or not :>
 
Last edited:

scorbunnys

Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
So I've found Latias to be balanced, here's the why:
:ss/latias:
So yeah, we all know it's a very good offensive mon thanks to it's solid SpA and Speed stat with also good coverage, but here's three reasons of why I don't believe it's broken:
1) SpA drops: So honestly this is it's biggest problem, Draco Meteor SpA drops makes it easy to abuse for cores such as Slowking + Jirachi, as -2 Mystical Fire / Thunderbolt doesn't really hit hard at all. That also leads to the problem number 2....
2) LO recoil and Roost reliance: Honestly, LO recoil + Draco Meteor SpA drops balances Latias by itself, but LO recoil is very detrimental as it has to click Roost more often that it really would like to, which is very abusable as the meta is very offensive and so stuff such as Krookodile Scarf or Zygarde-10% can switch into it for free if clicks Roost. Hazards and Status are also very annoying to it, as LO Recoil + Hazards chip + Status just weakens it at the long term.
3) Little defensive utility: So this is just icing the cake really, but this issue really makes Latias hard to get in as it's typing really only checks Nasty Plot Thundurus-Therian as Lily said, because most offensive mons can pressure it in a way or other (Kommo-O Scale Shot, Azelf Dazzling Gleam, Thundurus-Therian Pivot with Knock Off and Dark Pulse Hydreigon). Hell, it's even hard to get into defensive threats such as Heavy Slam Celesteela, Teleport Chansey or Thunder Wave Togekiss.
Honestly ausma did a way better post that I could ever do, but this mon is just kinda underwhelming in some fat MUs (ie: Sylveon + Jirachi or Celesteela + Slowking) and Steel-Types being so common really discourages it from clicking Draco Meteor, which can be very abusable as Latias pmuch has to predict and lots of fat cores has a way to deter it. Offense is also very good against it, as Latias hardly switches into an HO mon.

As for Calm Mind sets, I've never found them overwhelming or anything, as Latias CM has a 4MSS because it wants Mystical Fire, Draco Meteor, Substitute, Roost, Ice Beam and even Stored Power and having to pick three of them sucks as it always will have a flaw. Grassy Seed Latias is good btw use it more as it fixes many of the Latias issues (gains PhsyDef so can tank Knock Off and U-turns with more ease), but it's definitely not busted right now.

So overall, this mon is very strong but I don't believe it's broken by any means, but I'll look forward to see what happens, as this is a very interesting discussion overall and have a nice day! I'll leave some teams and will highlight how they can deal with Latias in game and in builder:
1635734683032.png
This team has many ways to deter Latias from spamming it's coverage, as it has stuff such as Excadrill SpD + Mandibuzz in order to deter Latias from running this team with Thunderbolt + Draco Meteor. Also, Slowking + Primarina can pivot on it and pressure it. Not to mention the defensive core (Excadrill + Slowking) doesn't really let Latias click Draco Meteor at all. The team doesn't have many flaws vs Kommo-O and Thundurus-Therian either. Oh yeah and ngl my CM Latias BoltBeam is not bad at all as I have Toxic Exca + Knock Off Latias + Draco Mence.

1635735063795.png
The anti-Latias core is very obvious here, Excadrill + Umbreon + Articuno can deter Latias from clicking it's moves and spamming Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt/Mystical Fire, as Umbreon can really stomach most of it's hits, but it can get kind of overwhelmed by Draco Meteor, that's when Excadrill comes in clutch as it can take Draco Meteors with relative ease and it's backed up by Wishpass Umbreon. Articuno on other hand can just Roost on it to death, but CM Latias can pressure Articuno. CM Latias MU is def not bad here as Toxic Umbreon pressures it and Excadrill can also pressure it.

1635735632020.png
So nothing lets it come for free as even Tentacruel can just click Knock Off and Skarmory Whirlwind. So my hard check here is Sylveon, as it just takes everything from LO 3 attacks. CM sets can be kinda annoying to deal for Sylveon so it's backed up by Scarf Krookodile which can pressure it if CM's and Jirachi can pmuch annoy it with U-turn and then get Krook in. SubCM is dealt by Sylveon even tho it's very uncommon and again, Latias doesn't come into anything.
Edit: S/o Furret4ssb for tell me that I didn't put paste on the last team, thank u for make me aware and I've put the paste now.
 
Last edited:
In traditional fashion, here I am with yet another usage stats post! This time, I'll be comparing the stats of September and October and discussing the new trends in usage created by the tier shifts. As always, I'll leave some questions for anyone willing to answer and hopefully spark some discussion.
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1 | Excadrill | 29.723% |
| 2 | Kommo-o | 20.577% |
| 3 | Aegislash | 20.155% |
| 4 | Latias | 19.078% |
| 5 | Hydreigon | 18.448% |
| 6 | Skarmory | 17.698% |
| 7 | Conkeldurr | 16.614% |
| 8 | Tangrowth | 15.642% |
| 9 | Azumarill | 15.295% |
| 10 | Amoonguss | 14.034% |
| 11 | Jirachi | 13.548% |
| 12 | Primarina | 13.514% |
| 13 | Thundurus-Therian | 13.269% |
| 14 | Chansey | 12.874% |
| 15 | Slowking | 12.771% |
| 16 | Celesteela | 12.284% |
| 17 | Mandibuzz | 11.829% |
| 18 | Mienshao | 11.411% |
| 19 | Krookodile | 10.963% |
| 20 | Mamoswine | 10.479% |
| 21 | Salamence | 10.424% |
| 22 | Zygarde-10% | 10.096% |
| 23 | Azelf | 10.089% |
| 24 | Zarude | 9.629% |
| 25 | Rotom-Wash | 9.244% |
| 26 | Gyarados | 9.082% |
| 27 | Keldeo | 8.935% |
| 28 | Moltres | 8.507% |
| 29 | Swampert | 8.147% |
| 30 | Rotom-Heat | 7.523% |
| 31 | Tapu Bulu | 7.308% |
| 32 | Regieleki | 6.951% |
| 33 | Nihilego | 6.592% |
| 34 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 6.540% |
| 35 | Hatterene | 6.540% |
| 36 | Moltres-Galar | 5.540% |
| 37 | Nidoking | 5.402% |
| 38 | Diggersby | 5.277% |
| 39 | Tentacruel | 4.872% |
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---------
| 1 | Kommo-o | 24.64630% |
| 2 | Jirachi | 20.36324% |
| 3 | Krookodile | 19.91284% |
| 4 | Salamence | 19.34627% |
| 5 | Aegislash | 18.38341% |
| 6 | Celesteela | 18.00304% |
| 7 | Rotom-Wash | 16.63767% |
| 8 | Amoonguss | 15.97976% |
| 9 | Thundurus-Therian | 15.16858% |
| 10 | Buzzwole | 15.09917% |
| 11 | Chansey | 14.28551% |
| 12 | Mamoswine | 13.64055% |
| 13 | Lycanroc-Dusk | 12.67930% |
| 14 | Azelf | 12.36048% |
| 15 | Tangrowth | 12.31746% |
| 16 | Keldeo | 11.81049% |
| 17 | Conkeldurr | 11.14691% |
| 18 | Primarina | 10.18099% |
| 19 | Rotom-Heat | 10.16091% |
| 20 | Nihilego | 10.09584% |
| 21 | Moltres | 9.64615% |
| 22 | Zarude | 9.44728% |
| 23 | Nidoking | 9.34010% |
| 24 | Pelipper | 9.18455% |
| 25 | Regieleki | 8.93157% |
| 26 | Hatterene | 8.36901% |
| 27 | Zygarde-10% | 8.01160% |
| 28 | Azumarill | 7.55196% |
| 29 | Tentacruel | 6.65520% |
| 30 | Diggersby | 6.63376% |
| 31 | Barraskewda | 6.51764% |
| 32 | Slowbro-Galar | 6.33695% |
| 33 | Crawdaunt | 6.31792% |
| 34 | Moltres-Galar | 5.98826% |
| 35 | Ribombee | 5.78172% |
| 36 | Gyarados | 5.57987% |
| 37 | Tapu Bulu | 5.38992% |
| 38 | Umbreon | 4.74776% |
How the drops have done
(30%)- Not a surprise for many, but Excadrill has cemented itself as the most used Pokemon in the tier. Its amazing typing and great utility has allowed excadrill to find itself on tons of teams as a stealth rock setter or hazard control. Its also the best suicide lead and helps enable threats like Kommo-o, thundurus, and goltres to go insane. Its one of the best Pokemon in the tier, albeit a bit overrated for me, but nonetheless still deserving of its #1 usage in the tier.
(19%)- Though gone now, Latias has still got lots of usage this month and would've got even more likely if it wasn't labeled as UUBL in the builder. Latias was a very dangerous offensive threat that had a fair bit of defensive utility. It had a lot of set versatility ranging from CM to choice specs, and was a headache to handle in the builder. It has been sent back to UUBL for now, and who knows if it'll stay there or get yet another shot when the new games come out.
(18%)- The three-headed terror of Underused has also been doing well, being at #5 with 18.5% usage overall. Hydreigon is one of the biggest threats in the tier, sporting amazing breaking power and solid defensive utility consistently. Its ability to run so many viable sets like scarf, specs, 3 attacks roost, taunt, nasty plot, and defog have all contributed to its high usage. A threat that isn't respected enough and surely to grow more post latias, Hydreigon is here to stay.
(17%)- Following right behind Hydreigon we have skarmory. I've run into this like every other game so I'm not surprised at its high usage, and its not hard to see why. An amazing physical wall capable to checking top threats like Gyarados, lycanroc, and excadrill, being a setter of the broken spikes, and paring well with so many walls like slowking, chansey, and tangrowth all have yielded skarmory amazing results here. Skarmory has easily defined its place in the tier and will always have a place at the very top.
(13%)- I'm very surprised slowking isn't higher, only sitting at #15 with nearly 13% usage. Slowking offers a lot, being a great defensive pivot thanks to regenerator and teleport as well as having a bevy of utility moves like future sight and thunder wave contribute to slowking's splashability. New trends like the rise of zarude, goltres, thundurus, hydreigon, and the consistent dominance of aegislash and azumarill hinder slowking a bit, so it'll be interesting to see if it can take over the meta like the last time it was here. Still, a valuable mon that can put work on any team it is on and should def be taken seriously despite his funny headwear.
(12%)- Not too far behind slowking we have mandibuzz at #17. Mandibuzz is one of the best role compressors in the tier, being a wall, pivot, ghost resist, and many more at once. I'm realizing that I'm repeating a lot of my VR post so I'll keep it short- mandibuzz good, well deserved usage.
(8%)- Last but certainly not least there's swampert. I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more usage but that's more of me just seeing a lot of swampert on the ladder rather than its traits. Anyway, swampert is a solid defensive mon in the tier that can check threats like excadrill and the rotoms. Forms good FWG cores with mons like bulu and moltres and is honestly pretty reliable at getting rocks up. Its back to where it belongs and will continue to do the same swampert things like always.
Notable increases in usage
(4.25%-->11%): Mienshao has seen an enormous jump in usage, finally being a part of the metagame. It is one of the best scarfers in the tier, revenging common threats like DD Gyarados. Furthermore, its LO set is the scariest its ever been, having no consistent counters barring amoonguss who can get exploited by plenty of mons in the tier. Its valuable speed tier sets it above thundurus-t and hydreigon, making it a scary offensive pivot. Mienshao's rise is well deserved and hopefully we'll see its solid traits being showcased in the upcoming snake draft.
(7.5%-->15.3%): Azumarill is back to dominance! Its typing has been really useful in checking the dragons that run the tier, and it's a phenomenal wallbreaker with its choice band set. Belly drum sets have also been very common on HO teams. It'll always be held back by its low speed but azumarill's big jump in usage is very deserved.
(11%-->16.6%): Conk is having the time of its life after spending the DLC in mediocrity. A slew of new mach punch targets like excadrill and hydreigon as well as fatter teams being more common to prey on has made conkeldurr a very dangerous threat as of late. Its potential has finally been realized with its jump in usage and it'll likely persist as a top threat despite the ban conk trend being basically over.
Notable drops in usage
(16.6%-->9%): Poor washer has not been enjoying itself lately. Once a premier utility Pokemon, it feels very overshadowed now. Being a water that hard loses to excadrill and the dragons isn't great. Still, its ability to be a solid pivot and pair well with other rising threats like chandelure could help propel washer back at the top. For now though, its back to mediocrity.
(19%-->10%): How the mighty have fallen! Both of these mons have been dominating the usage stats for this entire DLC, only to greatly fall off lately. Krook is still very good but excadrill being, well, excadrill, has eaten into a lot of its splashability. Mence hasn't offered too much over more deadly dragons like kommo-o, latias, and hydreigon due to its sets being pretty mid. special hates slowking and chansey being good, while DD is walled by god skarmory.
(6.3%-->4.2%): One of the drops out of UU, we have galarian slowbro. Glowbro was once considered banworthy during this DLC, though that is a distant memory now. CM sets just cant set up with dangerous breakers like conk, hydreigon, and excadrill running around. AV sets meanwhile arent in a great spot due to the major competition it faces from slowking as a special wall due to its ability to slack off and teleport while not being hazards weak. Glowbro is banned from RU anyway so it'll be rotting in RUBL unless it makes a comeback soon.
(6.3%-->4%): I've been waiting for this drop for a LONG time, but crawdaunt just isn't good. Its negative defensive utility makes it very hard to justify over other slow breakers, mostly azumarill, who have actual utility in addition to comparable power. Idk if it'll be too powerful for RU, but daunt's UU run has been long overdue and its time for him to find a home somewhere else
(3.8%-->2.6%): Rhyperior has fallen from grace, no longer being a dominant pick in UU. It has gone unseen as a ground due to the competition it faces from krook and exca. It doesn't check anything relevant barring the moltres forms and salamence either. It's too vulnerable to common threats like azumarill, zarude, primarina, tangrowth, bulu, skarmory, slowking, and many more. At least I know RU will enjoy their rhino back.
(4.5%-->2.2%): I saw this drop coming from a mile away. Swampert dropping would replace the rocker sets on the ladder because flip turn, while rain being unviable due to pelipper leaving limited offensive sets. Thus, I knew toad was going to have a very short tenure in UU. On the bright side, RU can get it early thanks to it being close to quick drop range next month.
- I don't want to write too much about these but all of these have taken quite a big hit in usage from how they were doing last month. These are self explanatory but they really hate the presence of excadrill and slowking in the metagame as of now. Jirachi still gets decent usage (13% in fact) but the others will def need to pull themselves up to retain their spot in UU.
Prospective shifts
-
we are slated to lose regieleki and get barraskewda in the future. Eleki is unviable garbage so losing it doesn't matter too much, its apparently doing well on a galarian zapdos spikes stack team so good for it. Rain is inconsistent in OU like always and Barra hasn't gotten enough to make the cutoff. It dropping would help breathe life into the barely viable rain we have now and it can act as a standalone pivot. RU would def enjoy having it back though. Remember, these changes may or may not occur, but its always fun to speculate.

Lastly, the usual questions are down below
1. How are you liking the tier right now?
2. Any rises or drops in usage you expected?
3. Conversely, are there any rises or drops you didn't expect to happen?
4. What trends/Pokemon do you think will continue to see higher/lower usage?
5. Any new sets or niche mons you've been enjoying that you want to share?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top