np SS UU Stage 2 - Here Comes The Sun (Gyarados & Primarina BANNED)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Moutemoute

Moot-Moot
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
  1. Taunt Umbreon does not beat Milotic without the speed investment since at the end of the Taunt, Milotic is able to Recover before your Umbreon goes for Taunt. In a 1v1 scenario, the extra speed is always appreciated.
  2. Yeah I run quite a lot of speed to be able to Wish / Heal Bell before a fast Taunt Umbreon.
  3. I'm just sharing some teams I've been using and since I played them with this kind of spread, I don't see why the heck I should change them before the sharing since I played the team like that.
I feel like you're whining for nothing tbh and I don't see the real goal of your post.
 

Lilburr

dark star core
is a Pre-Contributor
The purpose of fast taunt Umbreon is for much more than beating opposing Milotic even if you are not running a set that actually 1v1s Milotic consistently.

Fast taunt Umbreon can improve a team's matchup vs opposing fat massively just by existing. Yes, Toxic cripples these balances a bit, but it's very likely that Umbreon teams will already have Toxic spreaders and it's much more beneficial for the Umbreon to have the option to Taunt opposing Aromatherapy Weezings, Heal Bell Vaporeons/Umbreons and also prevents it from getting Toxiced by these mons + Milotic so you can save yourself the slot on Heal Bell anyway. You also obviously prevent recovery from these mons which Toxic Umbreon can't do, even if it can annoy them with status.
It also means you can't be taunted by opposing fast taunt Umbreon which otherwise completely shuts you down/forces you to switch. Not really a good look for something that's supposed to win the 1v1.

:ss/chandelure:
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Umbreon: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Notably a guaranteed 3HKO with Protect recovery)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

:ss/duraludon:
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Umbreon: 298-352 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Choice Specs Duraludon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 271-321 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- not a KO

:ss/espeon:
252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Umbreon: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 158-186 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

:ss/heliolisk:
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Umbreon: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

:ss/inteleon:
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Umbreon: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

:ss/polteageist:
+2 252+ SpA Polteageist Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Umbreon: 121-143 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Polteageist Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 110-130 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

:ss/roserade:
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Umbreon: 122-146 (30.9 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 110-133 (27.9 - 33.7%) -- 93.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery​

So with the notable exception of Chandelure, Umbreon continues to wall all of the things it walled regardless of whether or not it had full investment. Yes, the rolls are a bit tighter, but it's far from unworkable - especially considering Umbreon will have support on the types of fat balance teams it's found on.

Regardless of anything else, this is a metagame discussion thread first and foremost. Perhaps we should keep the discussion on the topic of the actual metagame, not nitpicking someone's spreads on a personal team they opted to share. Especially not without knowing why the spread works on the team it's found on.

Now that that's over, I'd like to quickly address a few thoughts on the metagame. These will just be quick one-liners because it's 2am and I don't rlly wanna get into them.

:ss/weavile:
Weavile is broken. Every last set. Choice band, life orb, boots, all busted. Knock Off was always going to make this thing too much to handle but nowadays it just 6-0s so many teams with no truly reliable counterplay outside of more niche options such as Steelix and Avalugg.

:ss/durant:
I don't think I really need to cover why the ant is busted. I've seen this thing run Hone Claws, AoA, Band, Scarf, like 7 different moves are viable on it, it's crazy. It can revenge everything in the tier because it doesn't care whether you resist First Impression or not, it's gonna sting HARD. It's frail as hell on the special side but most of our special attackers can't actually reliably revenge it if they aren't scarfed because they're slower than it, other than stuff like Inteleon and Noivern. I don't know if I'd classify it as broken yet but it's reeeeeeally up there.

:ss/diggersby:
The bunny has to go. I don't think the choiced sets are even the problem; the SD set is just frankly ridiculous. It 6-0s fat teams on its own because EVERYTHING gets OHKOd at +2 minus Avalugg and like idk Quagsire? Combine this with the fact that it has amazing utility in Quick Attack and can run two very viable Choiced sets in Scarf and Band that take advantage of the fact that it got Knock Off back to beat down the only mons in the tier that actually resisted its stabs and you have something that's just super crazy and unhealthy imo.

:ss/haxorus:
I don't actually think Hax is that bad anymore. Maybe I've just adapted, maybe I'm clouded, but I don't find it nearly as constraining as the other three I've mentioned. When they go it may become an issue, but imo teams have enough counterplay rn for it to be less of an issue. Still an incredibly scary breaker with very limited switch-ins, but a bit more balanced.


Finally I'm just gonna list a bunch of mons that I think are really good and should be used more but aren't currently that popular for whatever reason. Not giving reasons, I've just had good personal experiences with them and encourage you all to give them a shot.
:roserade: :tsareena: :gigalith: :ribombee: (specs) :machamp: :ninetales: :vileplume: :toxicroak: :barbaracle:

Sorry for the essay lmao hf reading it
 
All right, so I’m banned from UU discord (forgot why), but I’m freely allowed to post here, so here goes. One of RU’s only viable spinners and a very potent setup mon in his own right is a very usable niche pick in UU, but dear GOD he is so hard to fit on a team.

Mr. Rime has an incredible movepool filled to the brim with perfect coverage and amazing utility moves, allowing him to be customized a great deal to fit the team he’s on. He has the tools and coverage to beat many of the best Pokémon in the metagame, but struggles against many such as Doublade, so bring a hard counter if you do decide to use Rime. Base 70 speed isn’t great, but it’s enough to beat many common bulky mons and can creep uninvested Milotic without much effort. It also has Slack Off to recover damage if you’re up against something passive and feel safe using the move.

That being said, do NOT slap him on your team and expect instant results. Rime is kind of a bitch to build with, because he’s some of the worst 4 moveslot syndrome of any Pokémon... in all the games in the series. He can run sets to sort of beat his counters (Grass Knot absolutely shreds Rhyperior, which is otherwise a huge obstacle), but it’s impossible to check everything in one set. Rapid Spin is perhaps the biggest selling point, and with all the ghosts running around to spinblock Rime, Thunder Wave is a hilarious option to catch them on the switch (thank you, random person on CAP discord, I forgot who suggested this but it works wonders) and cripple them. This will probably lure out their Heal Bell user; customize your team to exploit this. And that’s the end of the easy part, now onto the very difficult choice of what attacking/other utility moves to use.

Mr. Rime has the coverage to hit almost the entire tier super effectively (to be specific, it cannot hit Arcanine, Centiskorch, Drapion, Durant, Frosmoth, or Ribombee super effectively but can deal neutral damage), but it cannot cover everything at once. Psyshock/Psychic and Freeze Dry are your best STAB options but they don’t really cover all its counters. Dazzling Gleam is an option but has very redundant coverage, don’t use it. Grass Knot hits for 100 or 120 BP on many of the tier’s biggest walls, but there are probably some situations where Energy Ball is more reliable. Focus Blast hits Steel types, which Rime really hates dealing with in general. Shadow Ball is a decent option because the metagame is practically haunted (you should probably get a teammate that can counter Ghosts, though!). Finally, Thunderbolt gives you bolt-beam coverage but it doesn’t really hit anything that isn’t covered by a better option.

Now, the utility/status moves, and the main appeal of Rime in my opinion. Rapid Spin removes hazards and boosts your speed, a lacking area otherwise. I already mentioned Thunder Wave for Ghost switch-ins, but it also gives you a free turn to boost up on the inevitable switch. Nasty Plot doubles your power and is probably the best boosting move you have. Calm Mind is also usable if you really need the extra special bulk. Encore is nice to set up in front of something if you lock it into a status move and aren’t afraid of what might come in on you. Hypnosis is waaay too inaccurate, but Rime doesn’t get Agility (which it really wants), so a blunder policy gimmick is possible but not a good option. Slack Off and Substitute annoy more passive Pokémon to no end so they can’t pull their antics as easily. But Taunt does the same job almost as well.

Overall, Mr. Rime is 100% usable in UU, but needs a lot of team support to function. The necessary support will vary a lot depending on Rime’s set, just try to beat whatever it is unable to cover. Scarf Chandelure threatens opposing ghosts and can use Energy Ball against Rhyperior, but then a third of your team is weak to Stealth Rock and Knock Off. A strong wallbreaker to pair it up with is desirable, but Rime loves to set up in the face of passive shit so maybe not. The best teammate is probably a bulky Pokémon that shares none of Rime’s weaknesses and is able to best what Charlie Chaplin Pokémon cannot. G-Weezing only shares its non-problematic steel weakness; Umbreon shares the weakness to the slightly more annoying Bug.

Actually, Rime doesn’t seem very good now that I’m looking at this passage again, but I spent too long writing it to not post this so oh well.
 

brewfasa

Formerly fatty
is a Tiering Contributor
agreed on the possibly busted Durant wave, dunno if you wanna compare hustle mons but I felt even during last meta CB Durant was harder to deal with than Zolt. You got a way better speed tier, STABs without immunities, an amazing priority. You don’t even need to predict, essentially any move you’re clicking is gonna be hitting something hard and it has all the coverage it needs to break through the things that can possibly switch in.

don’t really feel the need to go over bunny / Weavile, p sure these mons are clearly busted.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributor
Moderator
Just wanted to drop some of my thoughts on the current meta since I think there's a decent amount of mons to talk about. I know that it's early but I do think a few things are emerging as potentially unhealthy and are worth bringing up. Hope y'all enjoy!

I thought Diggersby was already a bit suspect in the pre-home meta but now it's a pretty nasty presence imo. Its main flaws 100% lie in its poor defensive utility and low Speed on non-Scarf sets, though it isn't that hard to provide it free turns given the great synergy it can create on VoltTurn builds. Regaining Knock Off allows it to even better take advantage of the switches it can force, preventing would-be checks like Avalugg and Hippo from being able to consistently pivot into it while just being a super free option in general. It isn't very hard-pressed to dismantle teams throughout the course of most matches thanks to its amazing coverage, and scouting its set can often prove devastating due to how rewarding all of scarf, SD, and band can all be. Between Diggersby's new access to Knock Off, the versatility between its sets, and the adequate means of providing it opportunities to just click buttons in this meta, I think it provides an overwhelming presence that is extremely difficult to reliably accommodate in nearly any building scenario. I think this is the most broken mon in the meta and would personally ban it before anything else.

For me Weavile was at first a bit tricky but it's another Pokemon that I think is too low-risk high-reward and is overall an overbearing presence. Gamefreak somehow managed to make Knock Off even more free this gen with the removal of Z-Moves and mega stones, which ends up heavily rewarding Weavile given its access to a strong, fast, STAB Knock. Akin to Diggy it can pretty easily cripple bulky switch-ins like Avalugg and Arcanine due to their reliance on items to consistently perform their defensive roles, as well as the fact that most of Weavile's checks are also called on to check various other staples in the tier, which obviously becomes complicated upon item removal and allows them to be more easily overwhelmed in late-game scenarios. While Weavile can't take games by the horn as easily as Diggersby can, it can set up conditions for most structures to be easily overwhelmed by the rest of its team with generally low risk while still manhandling a lot of the meta with its STAB combo alone. Knock Off is near impossible to punish in this meta given that Silvally forms are generally still niche (and Steel can be teched with Low Kick), and it benefits Weavile while complementing its other tools far too heavily for me to think it should stick around.

Hone Claws allowed Durant to patch up its main issue in accuracy while boosting its already scary power. Its Speed and sheer offensive presence are pretty threatening in their own right and generate a fair amount of setup opportunities while its defensive checks are mostly dependent on the coverage it opts for. Choice Band is also still a very threatening set that in a lot of situations depends on a Hustle miss to adequately work around without either crippling or straight up losing some key Pokemon. On paper it doesn't seem as overbearing as the previously mentioned mons because stuff like Noivern and Inteleon can overwhelm it and Hippo is an okay defensive response, but revenge killing it almost always requires a sack. I also think it exerts too massive a presence since a lot of a match against Durant just becomes bending over backwards to avoid providing it the conditions it needs to clean up. The means necessary to turn Durant into a devastating cleaner don't feel super strenuous and the bulk of its viable defensive counterplay is situational due to its expansive coverage. I think it's too much and we'd benefit from banning it just given the density of super powerful breakers in the tier.

To me it seems there's a common trend in the above three Pokemon Right now these are the only three Pokemon I'd say are banworthy, though I wanted to touch on one last Pokemon I've seen a few people discussing since home drops gave it more to work with...
I don't think Mamo is a super unhealthy force but I have seen some people bring it into question after it got Knock Off back. I think that Knock Off definitely elevates its worth given that it can now smack Bronzong while burdening checks like Golis and Umbreon. There is a fair argument that an already huge offensive presence in Mamoswine now has another tool to restrict counterplay with, but I think there's enough keeping it in a box to prevent it from being overbearing just yet. Despite the utility knock provides, it can honestly feel like a struggle fitting it given how important a fit rocks are in most cases. Mamoswine is fitted on a fair amount of offensive builds as is for its rocks access, and giving that up for Knock Off can put you in some rather tricky building situations given the general shortage of good options for rockers on offense. I just don't think it has the space to abuse Knock Off without giving up more important utility. Between Mantine seeing more usage, Weezing maintaining its prominence, and other Pokemon in Avalugg, Umbreon, and Golis still doing well, I think there is also enough defensive counterplay to the point that it's still a manageable presence even if some of the aforementioned answers don't love losing their items. As the meta develops I think it may be one to look out for, though we've got bigger fish to fry currently and I think it's constrained enough that while still amazing, it isn't too much for UU.

Well that's my two cents. Hope I made some sense despite my tendency to turn these things into essays most times :P Overall I think home honestly gave us a good amount of change, so I'm excited to see how the metagame further develops in the coming weeks. Thanks for reading!
 
Every time I mention a Pokemon I believe to be broken or unhealthy for the tier, significantly later other players come to that very realization and are like, "huh this thing might be a bit broken". Seriously though, this tier has been pretty wonky for some time now. Perhaps it's because of the Sword/Shield dlc, but those don't come out till summer and fall respectively, so I don't think there should be any hesitation when it comes to balancing the tier we have now. When a plethora of walls and some new threats drop we can resuspect what was previously banned, but I think right now there are a couple of Pokemon that should go. For all those complaining about too much bans, there are at maximum three or four Pokemon that should have suspects, if they're truly not broken then they won't be banned, but for the tier to progress I believe it would be best to be proactive in balancing UU.
 

Pak

hydeout
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
In a shocking turn of events, I've laddered a lot lately and came to some more conclusions about the state of the tier. Like I said in my RMT roughly 5000 times, Durant is such good insurance versus most of the tier's top threats like Weavile, Haxorus, Diggersby, etc. through its natural bulk, typing, and access to First Impression. That trait has made it ridiculously hard for me in the last month or so to not just spam the living shit out of it and throw it on whatever team. Once home came out, my RMT obviously became worse and of course it was public, so I ended up revamping it to play into some of the new trends and it worked better than I ever could've hoped. Simply put, Durant is just jesus christ and if supported well, it absolutely steamrolls the ladder.
1582226938739.png

1582226979056.png

1582227087596.png
For the record, I'm not putting this here to stroke my own ego or anything along those lines. People's main critique against Durant is the inconsistency brought about by its accuracy, but if that win/loss shows anything, it's that Durant's benefits stupidly outweigh the miss chances that fuck us all over from time to time. It's pretty apparent looking at that group of 6 mons just how much offensive load Durant is meant to carry. Nothing else makes meaningful progress on its own versus the vast majority of teams you'll see. I would legitimately lead Durant almost every single game, threaten First Impression against something faster, dent whatever was in front to push past them later, or predict accordingly. As for the last point, the ball is almost entirely in the Durant user's court when it comes to aggressive maneuvers. Complain all you want about accuracy, but no one should be leaving in their Weezing or whatever, hoping they dodge because lol xd Hustle is bad. Durant has basically 3 "switch-ins," being Hippowdon, Milotic, and Mantine. The thing is though, that none of them are remotely comfortable switching in. Generally, they'll be forced to use their respective recovery moves immediately if they are to check Durant during the next sequence (which it has an abundance of between teammates' U-turns and Speed/typing/physical bulk). That's where this man comes in.
1582227478376.png

So maybe you'll notice; Milotic and Hippowdon are theoretical Gigalith counters, or at least they were pre-Pokemon Home. I could legit hard switch into the sand rock on the recovery move of any of those Durant checks and continue the momentum. Throwing a Toxic on Milotic or Hippowdon essentially neutered them as long-term Durant checks and obviously Mantine gets its shit pushed in, while also not appreciating the sand chip since they're all boots. Point here is, supporting Durant has never been easier.

Random tangent: something that's frustrated me at times is that the Hustle misses are even further looked down upon because people will use Durant as their primary check to the threats I mentioned above. CB First Impression is more of an insurance layer versus these threats than anything. If you rely on a one-time 80% chance to beat them, or let it get to that point in the first place, it isn't Hustle's fault. It is the support system placed around Durant. Place as little pressure on the ant in dealing with these threats as you can, and the the consistency in dealing with them will follow. With all this said, I did gas it up for that very reason earlier, and it is definitely a great tool to have. The flexibility it provides in-game is awesome, but it shouldn't be a crutch to be leaned on unless absolutely necessary.

Last thing, I honestly think why Durant largely went under the radar as a broken Pokemon was of course, Hustle. This sounds obvious, but since everyone was so reluctant to use it and it didn't have some outrageous new toy bolstering it like Dracozolt did, it's overall presence wasn't as powerful as it theoretically should be. I don't have the usage stats in front of me or anything, but I've seen way more talk about Weavile, Diggersby, Haxorus, etc. and I think that's due in large part to those mons not having such a glaring flaw. People see nothing wrong with throwing them on teams, leading to obviously increased usage and eventually to a more overwhelming presence in the mind of a given player. This isn't me trying to downplay the others, but if Durant saw the same usage and community gassing, this tier would be 100x worse because of its sheer dominance it can offer. Durant ban rant over (I didn't even mention Hone Claws).

I won't touch too much on the other threats at hand, but I would definitely vote ban on Diggersby and Weavile as well. The discussion on those two, if I'm remembering correctly, has been more thorough to this point. Simply put, SD Diggersby is stupidly brain dead. Click SD, hope your opponent doesn't have one of the handful of faster normal resists in the tier, profit. Weavile: Knock Off is stupid and made its immediate offensive presence way more significant. Before, a boots Weavile would switch in, make no progress versus a Weezing, and switch. Knock Off setting itself up for some tom foolery later is too powerful, other sets too.

Another random tangent: Knock Off is everything Tsareena could've ever wanted this gen. I was just running Power Whip/U-turn/Spin/Knock, and it was flames. Previously, it was annoyed to hell and back by three of the tier's most common mons in Noivern, Weezing, and Doublade. Noivern gets its boots Knocked Off and now suddenly it can be pressured in gen 8 underused (shocking I know). Weezing is the same shit as what I said for Weavile on a much smaller scale, but cutting off passive recovery for a potential spin clean later is pretty fire. Finally, Doublade takes more then 8 from one of Tsareena's attacks now, which also removes Eviolite. Overall, it makes spin blocking with Doublade wayyyyyy less reliable long-term and of course losing its Eviolite hurts its own potential to significantly impact a game. Also Tsareena checks SD Diggersby since they're all Adamant bop. Last thing: you'll notice my "win-condition" on that team is literally spinning with Tsareena, not sure if that says more about Durant killing everything or about Tsareena being a pseudo-set-up-sweeper at times.
 

Wanka

a suh
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Since there's probably going to be voting soon, I'll pop in.

I have found myself laddering quite a bit with a lot of different teams in an attempt to find some mix of creativity along with viability in order to have more fun with the tier. As Pak displayed his "gijion" alts above, I have also partaken in this string of "gijion" alts on the ladder.

Screenshot (2).png


My initial push was Pre Home and I had been using Paks team above Post home, but I wanted to explore other breakers and ways of winning other than durant + 5 things that support durant, which don't get me wrong is broken but I wanted to try some new things since that method of winning was broken pre home as well. I started looking at machamp and pangoro as more or less off hand breakers that nobody really has any switchins too and it kinda worked out. Pangoro was a little bit worse for me in my experience even though I only tried SD. Machamp seemed better as a wall breaker to me than CB goro since I liked the ability to switch moves, hit geezing hard, and still hit like a truck in general with guts. Pangoro struggles aside, I was looking at CBU's RMT and ended up reworking it and making my own spin off that I had a good time with on the ladder, which was responsible for my second push.



I pretty much just took out goro and noivern and replaced them with machamp and offensive geezing respectively. I made weavile low kick because gigalith had kinda been on the rise once people realized how good it was. I just made doub claw and garde healing wish as well since I didn't really like the idea of tricking my scarf away when I pretty much need it at all times to check the brokens. Figured I'd get occasional use in hwishing machamp, which did a couple times. I liked the idea of offensive geez on a faster paced team like this and it does a good job at pressuring HO/BO & Balance if you can position it well. It also serves as a legitimate switchin to sirfetch'd which definitely helped me take on that mon easier. Duraludon was the only mon and set that I didn't touch at all and it does it's job nicely. Machamp wasn't amazing for me, but it turned out to be an exceedingly viable breaker in the meta and I do think I prefer it over sirftech'd for sure. Pretty much same reasons I prefer it to goro as well tbh, nothing in the tier realistically can switch into machamp whereas the other two have to run band to wall break/be more reliant on prediction due to being locked in. You can run like slam and AoA sets with like edge and no prio too if you want to KO geezing and shit like goli/skorch as well. the set I have on the team I used is more or less better on that team but ye tldr, machamp is a fucking beast. In general though, It was relatively easy to break down teams while still having solutions for my opponents bound to be broken wall breakers as well. s/o to CBU for making the initial team so I could find it and tweak kek.

To conclude, I think I have a good idea of how the votes are going to go and I think things will get better in the future given the choke hold shit like durant, diggers, weav have on the tier. What's cool is I think even past them, there are still a lot of great wall breakers at the tiers disposal and with a hopeful breath of fresh air away from at least some of the broken ones, things will be different. Won't give too much input on the mons themselves though since its mad dead yuh.
 

Moutemoute

Moot-Moot
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
I haven't spoken yet of Durant so I think it's time to talk about this troublesome Pokemon. In my last post, I didn't talk about it because I almost never used it but when Pak talked about it on the council chat I decided to giveit a try. Even if I hate so much Hustle because I feel like it misses way too much in my opinion I can't deny the fact that Durant is probably the most dangerous Pokemon in the current metagame thanks to its speed tier and sheer force which allows it to punish almost anything if you click the right move. As opposed to Dracozolt which didn't have that much coverage, Durant is able to overcome the whole tier thanks to its movepool. Both of its STABs are dangerous and allow it to pressure common cores such as Umbreon + Weezing-Galar while its filler make it almost impossible to switch-into. Doublade doesn't appreciate Crunch while Superpower is overall a really good filler. Even bulky Water-types are not safe because Choice Band First Impression is ridiculously powerful and they must avoid Hone Claws + Thunder Fang. Choice Band is the most threatening set of Durant since it allows it to pressure so much Pokemon thanks to its priority First Impression but you always need to keep in mind that Hone Claws is now a thing on Durant thanks to Pokemon HOME. If you didn't scout the opponent's Durant you may end up in a situation where Durant is able to set-up on a switch.

Example 1 : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1066050113
In this replay both yeezyknows and I are managing to pressure really hard each other thanks to Durant. While my Choice Band Durant is able to pressure right of the bat its team, yeezy manages to set-up its Durant on a switch and get 2 K.O forcing me to use my own Durant in order to revenge kill it. Because of the pressure applied by Durant, yeezy was forced to make agressive doubles which unfortunately didn't paid off.

Example 2 : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1066042350
In this other replay, Durant was able to pressure the opponent's team almost every time it comes on the field. With a bit of chip damages (or a bit of luck), Mantine wasn't able to handle Durant which forces my opponent to sack some of its mon in the process. Choice Band First Impression also allows Durant to OHKO its Scarf Flygon.

Example 3 : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1065798195
Once Bronzong has been weakened by Bewear, Durant can freely spam its Iron Head on the opponent's team and finish off its weakened Golisopod thanks to First Impression.

tl;dr : I think Durant is way too hard to deal with and the fact that you always have to keep in mind that Durant can be either Choice Band or Hone Claws is a real pain in the ass because they don't share exactly the same check. While bulky Water-types can handle to a certain extent Choice Band Durant, they can't deal at all with Hone Claws + Thunder Fang variants and the same applies in the other way where Hone Claws Durant can't revenge kill some threats like Weavile or Scarf users while Choice Band Durant can easily overcome this flaw thanks to First Impression. It's also super easy to support Durant since it only really needs some momentum and teammates which can handle things like Fire-types or Noivern.




click on teams for exports

By the way I also believe both Diggersby and Weavile are broken af. Knock Off on Weavile is a freaking bless which allows it to punish whatever comes on it. Its speed tier allows it to revenge kill almost anything since the only faster threat without a boost or item is Barraskewda which is kinda ass atm due of all the bulky Water-types. Being able to outspeed things like Noivern, Espeon, Heliolisk or Inteleon is insane tbh. Like Durant, Weavile is not a one-dimensional Pokémon since it can run either AoA Choice Band / Life Orb or SD + Boots/LO/Sash. This Pokémon is hellah nasty for the tier and I believe it must leave the Underused asap. The same applies to Diggersby which also has Knock Off which allows it to punish even harder its check like Bronzong or Avalugg. All its sets are great : SD + EQ / Q-A + either Knock Off or Normal STAB, Choice Scarf or Choice Band.. and like Durant and Weavile you always have to scout this Pokémon because their sets don't share the same checks..

tl;dr : BAN³
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris an Administrator
UU & Tour Head
The UU Council will be voting on Diggersby, Durant and Weavile. All three have proved to be top-tier threats in the current meta, and discussion here, among the council and in the UU room and discord indicates that these three deserve a closer look.

:diggersby: Diggersby :diggersby:

Diggersby was always a major threat even pre-Home, with an excellent Scarf set that retains much of its wallbreaking ability while bypassing its low Speed and a powerful SD set that really began to gain traction in the latter days of the pre-Home meta. However, it wasn't until Home released that we saw its full potential thanks to the release of Knock Off. With Knock Off it no longer struggles with 4mss, as Normal + Ground + Dark hits the entire tier for good damage. There simply are not defensive counters to Diggersby barring defensive Avalugg in the current meta (and even Avalugg finds itself 2HKO'd by CB sets once it gets knocked). Its low Speed and below-average defenses give it some offensive counterplay, but with a Choice Scarf or strong priority in a boosted Quick Attack, it can easily power through offensive teams as well.

:durant: Durant :durant:

Unlike the other two, Durant saw no major improvements in the post-Home meta. While it does now have access to Hone Claws, giving it a powerful new option, the real menace is Durant's Choice Band set. Packing an excellent Speed tier and the strongest priority in the entire game (to put things into perspective, CB First Impression deals almost as much damage as +2 ESpeed from Adamant Arceus), backed by powerful attacks capable of breaking through even the sturdiest of walls, defensive counterplay to CB Durant is often limited to physically defensive Hippo (which must stay perfectly healthy, as CB Iron Head does 40% minimum to max/max Hippo), hoping to predict around its attacks or crossing your fingers and hoping for a miss. Many people have expressed that they feel Durant represents a particularly unhealthy presence in the tier, with games hinging entirely on whether or not Hustle hits.

:weavile: Weavile :weavile:

While Weavile is still lacking one of its most notorious tools in Pursuit, Home gave it back its other key option: Knock Off. With so few Knock absorbers in the tier, Weavile is proving to be a fantastic revenge killer and one of the best late-game threats around. It has several sets it can run, but perhaps the most reliable is Boots SD, which is fantastic at turning games around thanks to its blazing fast Speed and amazing attack and dual-STAB. While it is not a breaker in the same way Diggersby and Durant are, it is still an extremely formidable threat, and deserves a closer look.

Council will have the weekend to vote on these three Pokemon. In the meantime, please include your thoughts on the trio, and on the metagame in general!
 

vivalospride

chris wanka is my pre workout
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Will be plopping my opinion on these 3 pieces of shit in this post as I feel obliged to. First I'd like to notify everyone that we're all braindead for ever using Rhyperior and not slapping Gigalith on literally every team that's ever existed from the getgo, that thing is amazing.

Anyways, this tier is still a bunch of dumb shit we can't and will probably never be able to switch into, it's funny bc I feel like all these threats are borderline nonfactors while building bc defensive counterplay simply doesn't exist if you're being picky about it for maybe all 3 of these mons. They're broken in the way Mamoswine was "broken" according to some hooligans in sm uu but with a better speed tier AND setup. Weavile applies to this a lot less than the other two in my opinion but I'll get to that later.

What I mean by the mamoswine thing is that we give up on actually switching into these monstrocities and we just hope we can offensively pressure them, I don't know of anything that effectively and consistently switches into Durant STABs + coverage at +1 (whether it be CB or hc) as well as Diggersby STAB combo at +2 or even +0 sometimes. We rely on being able to keep these threats off the field with offensive pressure, being able to rkill them bc of their speed tier, lack of bulk, or weakness to a prio move, and being able to punish them for locking into a certain move (if choiced) with setup or some shit.

I will be voting ban on both diggersbytho and kevin durant. Diggs leaving I really don't think will impact the tier all that much bc we have another ground scarfer that is probably just as reliable in terms of speed control/as a pivot bc of it's superior speed tier in Flygon, definitely not a cleaner/fuckin breaker like diggersby is tho. Like I said we can't switch into this thing for shit so I don't think it leaving will impact building much at all, it'll just give us one less spiker to work with ig. In a different vein it'll definitely make playing the tier significantly less horsedick feeling, as we won't have 50/50s obnoxiously shoved in our face on a gamely basis to the same extent. But I think this thing is a bit too overwhelming bc of the splashability + versatility + POWER + STAB combo being unique and impossible to switch into + it defensively has two immunities, meaning it can finesse it's way onto the field p often (forcing out +2 doublades/coming in on heliolisk tryna click elec stab/etc). It's bulk is also ntb, meaning it can come in on some shit like gigalith and just have a free turn.

In terms of THE BUG, that thing belongs in one of the Terry Crews Old Spice commercials. It's too powerful, too fast, it's typing is too good, it has fuckin stab first impression. We have no switch ins, it's hard to get this thing off the field sometimes bc of it's speed tier, it's hard to keep it off the field sometimes bc of it's typing (luckily it's frail as fuck specially), hoping the guy misses is often the best counterplay. We let Pak of all people top the ladder like 47 times already, he's used Durant on every fuckin team. When you're facing it, it's too polarizing is the best way to describe it bc missing or misclicking the wrong move is like the only way someone is gonna click a move on Durant and not be rewarded. CB is the best set but HC is quite fuckin ridiculous vs teams with poor speed tiers or overworked/hamfisted defensive cores as well.

Weavile is really good, I've donked quite a few people on the head with it. Any SD set is p much gonna have good mus in the late game, LO is gonna be threatening from the getgo but is gonna be difficult to carry into the late game where it can clean while boots can carry it into the late game with ease but requires more support to get the opportunity to clean bc of the lack of damage. I've personally spammed boots > lo since pre-home and while this thing is definitely good, I don't wanna ban it. I think it's lack of bulk/good defensive typing (obviously) makes it much easier than the other two to just keep off of the field and especially to prevent it from setting up to +2. Even if you do let it get +2, there's a dece number of things that can withstand +2 knock or +2 icicle crash, espec if boots is the item of choice on weav. A pretty often occurrence I've come across is needing to dodge scald burns to get to +2 or +4 to try and win with Weavile, it is quite easy to offensively pressure this mon compared to the other two even if it's speed tier is absolutely insane. A lot of the time the best case scenario in a game is forcing out Noiverns or like Doublades or something but that has it's obvious high risks if you're trying to setup. Steel and Ground are both typings that have general utility defensively across a multitude of gens and metas, and bc of that the other two (compared to weavile) are a lot more difficult to consistently keep off the field, even if they obviously don't embody what it means to have "defensive utility", in fact that's not what it's about at all, it's about getting opportunities to break, which typing plays a large part in. Keeping this thing vs getting rid of it weighs on the state of offense quite a lot as well considering it's something that forces out ghosts and noivern that reliably fits and thrives on offense (which is quite inhumanely rare), and weav's existence also helps keep a lid on balance builds from slowly taking over as we trim the breakers out of this tier. (I will not be voting ban on Weavile).

This is a lot of words but there's a lot to say and honestly I haven't scratched the surface. Reminder that CoolStoryBrobat is still breathing and hasn't died of old age quite yet and we should all be grateful for that. I apologize for wasting the time of the like 2 or 3 of you that read this collection of paragraphs made up of shorthands and run-on sentences in full.
 
Gonna talk about Durant cause I've been spamming him in UU since it came out.

Out of the three main sets, CB, LO 4 Attack and Hone Claws, I've found the best to be LO 4 attack. First Impression is just such a great new addition to Durant's movepool, allowing it to come in and force out most mons that's even faster than it or Heliolisk that speed ties with it. The only things faster than it that don't outright die to first impression from 100% are Noivern, Braviary, Scarfed Chandelure and either Polteageist set at +2. With that said, I don't think the power gained from Band is quite worth it for First Impression compared to LO. LO still nets the OHKO on relevant threats such as Diggersby and Flygon while not requiring you to switch out if they switch in a resist or you overpredict on a sack. The only thing you lose the OHKO on by going LO over Band is Haxorus, who with any chip or hazard damage will die too. For bulky guys, band does have the benefit of stinging quite a bit harder and even netting the OHKO on fully physdef Geezing, but LO has a high chance of netting the 2HKO from First Impression to Superpower on Milotic if that's their physical tank and neither LO or Band can get the 2HKO on Hippo so it'll just slack off up until you miss. As for Hone Claws, the band calcs are relevant but you lose First Impression which I think is huge since you lose the only way to pressure and kill what's faster than you. All Durant sets are really weak to something faster coming in that can revenge it so trying to turn him into a set up sweeper and losing a (albeit one turn) priority move hurts more than it helps, even if it patches up Hustle.


252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 313-370 (100.6 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 305-360 (101.3 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 277-328 (94.5 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 188-222 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 212-251 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 283-338 (84.7 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 321-378 (103.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 168-198 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 282-333 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since I'm expecting Kevin to get banned for doping by the end of the day I'll post the team I've been using most recently with him. I'm not an amazing player but I've done well with it and it's been a ton of fun to use. It was pretty basic, just punch holes with Durant and Gard and try to get enough chip down on everything for Inteleon to clean up.



Gardevoir (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Trace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick

Umbreon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Foul Play
- Yawn

Silvally @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic
- Defog
- U-turn
- Multi-Attack

Weezing-Galar (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Strange Steam
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower

Inteleon (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Surf

Kevin (Durant) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Iron Head
- Crunch
- Superpower
 

TDK

is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
UU Leader
hey all,

Diggersby, Durant, and Weavile have all been BANNED from SS UU.



:Diggersby:
With the release of Pokemon Home, Diggersby regains access to one of the best offensive moves; Knock Off. Diggersby was already a menace to the tier, with multiple great sets, all of which were amplified thanks to Knock Off. Between SD, Scarf, and CB, it is really quite crazy how good and potent Diggersby has been. Its sheer power and movepool make it too much to reasonably handle in this metagame. Diggersby was unanimously banned amongst all members of the council.

:Durant:
Durant has slowly been inching itself up to the top of the metagame; there's no doubt to anyone who actively plays that Durant is absolutely horrifying to face off against. Its stats, typing, ability, and movepool all push it over the edge. Priority First Impression hits incredibly hard, and its other moves make it extremely difficult to beat. While it did get Hone Claws through Home, it really shines by coming in and immediately wreaking havoc. Durant has quite clearly made its case for the star of UU ever since the second round of bans, as it is quite simply too potent of an offensive threat. Durant was an easy ban from all members of the council.

:Weavile:
Probably the biggest winner of the three in terms of what Home did for it, Weavile regained its best STAB move; Knock Off. Firing off STAB Knock Offs with its speed tier, coupled with Icicle Crash, its speed, and its item of choice (Life Orb, Boots, Band), it really does a number to the metagame. It is most certainly not as potent as the aforementioned two banned Pokemon, but the biggest thing is Weavile's speed tier alongside its movepool. Boots SD becomes incredibly troublesome to take on, as not even Stealth Rock can wear it down. Ultimately, Weavile was simply deemed to be overbearing, although not as clear cut as the previous two.

Tagging The Immortal and Marty to make the changes (banning all three of Diggersby, Durant, and Weavile from SS UU) when they have the time.

I'd also like to mention that aim will be stepping down from UU Council for the time being. No other changes to Council were made for this vote. As always, appreciate the contributions that you've given us thus far.

 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top