np SS UU Stage 2 - Here Comes The Sun (Gyarados & Primarina BANNED)

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Wow, a lot of drops and notable rises in Hippowdon and Torkoal (which would have been a better sun-setter partner than Ninetales for Venusaur), gonna just drop some thoughts on how some of these will effect the meta.


Sun is a menace in this tier now, originally only being abused by Shiftry (or Vileplume) but now has Venusaur. Shiftry has more reliable move-set outside of Sun but Venusaur is just a monster in it, with Weather Ball as 100-power Fire-type move. I could see Venusaur being really unhealthy as the only notable weather setter in the tier right now is Gigalith, but Venusaur puts huge pressure on that, so it will require a lot of pivoting. We'll have to see how powerful sun is now, but I have a feeling Venusaur is going to be unhealthy for the tier, in some regard.


Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpA / 92 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt

Not a drop or rise but AV Goodra seems like the best check for Venusaur under sun, being able to take a +2 Sludge Bomb and OHKO 93% of the time with Fire Blast under Sun. The ev spread takes into account Sludge Bomb's 30% chance to poison which can secure possible 2HKOs on max HP Modest Goodra. Overall a good blanket check to even stuff like Noivern, Alolan Raichu, Celebi, Blastoise etc.

168 SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur in Sun: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 140-165 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after poison damage


Blastoise seems good but with things like Milotic, Mantine and Vaporeon in the their, I'm not too sure... It seems really good against most other stuff in the tier, but it doesn't flat out sweep with the Pokemon I mentioned being common, it will definitely need some support in order to sweep. I could see defensive Rapid Spin having a good spot in the tier as well with Scald/Body Press/Toxic/Rapid Spin as common spin blockers don't like taking a Scald burn such as Doublade.


Raichu FINALLY has a Electric Terrain setter outside of Tapu Koko in OU last gen, where Raichu was simply too weak to compete reliably. Pincurchin offers Spikes and Toxic Spikes for chip damage on checks to Raichu, as well as Memento if the time comes for a sweep. Raichu under Electric Terrain is the fastest Pokemon in the tier (out speeding even scarf Noivern) and even outside of Electric Terrain, it's speed tier is fantastic, only being outsped by Inteleon, Noivern, Alolan Persian and Scarfers. Nasty Plot/TBolt/Psychic/Focus Blast hits everything in the tier for at least neutral damage expect for Celebi. I think Raichu will be pretty solid in this tier.


Same old Alolan Ninetales, it sets up broken screens and let's powerhouses such as Necrozma and Linoone to break or sweep teams. Although with other weathers being allowed in the tier now, that might change. Most likely outcome though is Ninetales will run Hail in it's moveset to mindlessly outplay other weather setters as they switch in, just like in OU.


This thing has a niche as a Suicide Lead with Steel Beam, much like Excadrill does in OU. Outside of that, I don't know why you would run this.


This Pokemon got Swords Dance this generation which is a HUGE boon. It's great speed tier of base 105 and solid 100 base attack stat with a reliable boosting and good coverage of Wild Charge and High Horsepower/Drill Run make it a great Fire-type sweeper. Heavy-Duty Boots can also increase it's longevity without having to run Morning Sun. I could also see this paired on sun teams with Venusaur or on Aurora Veil teams.


It's niche to it's Galarian cousin is that it isn't weak to Steel-types, which has some merit with Doublade, Lucario and Cobalion the tier. Other than that, it's outclassed.


I think this is the best Pokemon we got from tier shift, it's just so reliable now especially with Pursuit being removed from the game. It beats Pokemon like Milotic, Rhyperior, Weezing-Galarian and even Umbreon with the right set. It does have to worry about Knock Off and First Impression (now that is has been more distributed), but I think Celebi is one of, if not THE best mon in the tier.


Veil BellyDrum, that's what this Pokemon does. Although the 50% berry nerfs are quite a big hit to this thing.


Solid Rocker especially due to it's being able to beat other all other Rockers now that Hippo rose as this thing dropped. SD could also be really strong but without Z-Moves it's not as notable as it once was. Solid Pokemon all around.


Virizion seems actually pretty good, now that it got Megahorn it can beat Celebi. It obviously is walled by Doublade or Weezing and is outsped by likes of Noivern but I could see SD or CM Virizion (with Air Slash now as well) being solid in the tier.


I feel like despite it having a higher attack stat and a way to break Doublade, Decidueye is not as good as Virizion. It loses to Umbreon unlike Virizion, it's slower so it has to run Sucker Punch, isn't as bulky as Virizion... The only niche I see with this Pokemon is that it can trap with Spirit Shackle. I guess it's also a Defogger that also Spin Blocks, but the only notable spinners are Avalugg and Blastoise which have ways of punishing it via Ice-type moves or burning with Scald with Blastoise. Maybe a Nasty Plot set? With Giga/Hurrican/Shadow Ball? We'll see.


I'm not sure about Incineroar. On one hand it looks amazing with the Heavy-Duty Boots, pivoting around with Parting Shot and checking Doublade, but with the handful of Fighting-types in the tier... ehhh... I want to see how this turns out, I hope it's UU material this gen.


Probably the best out of the three Alola starters, now it has access to Calm Mind. Choice Specs also just as dangerous last gen but also a notable set I noticed while it was used in OU was Whirlpool + Perish Song (sort of like Azumarill) which can useful in removing Pokemon like Umbreon, Milotic, Vaporeon which have no way of threatening it. I believe the set is Whirlpool/Perish Song/Protect/Rest? That way they can avoid Toxic, though I could Sub + Scald replacing Protect and Rest.


Necrozma keeps getting moves added to it's movepool, now having access to Dragon Dance. Offensive Rocker, SD + 3 Attacks, DD + 3 attacks, SD Rock Polish, CM... It's just so versatile. Also with Alolan Ninetales in the tier, it can be run on Veil where it truly shines as a sweeper. I have high hopes for Necrozma this gen.

This tier is getting shaken up, one way or another, I suspect some things might be quick banned (looking at you Venusaur) and tested later, but we'll see. I'm really excited for UU this gen, because while a lot of people are fear mongering Stall coming back, I think we're far from it at this point lol.
 
Primarina will be busted. Choice specs has no switch ins, Empoleon, Volcanion and Blissey being gone, and we don't even have soft checks like Amoonguss and Tentacruel. You're literally playing a guessing game, and it's exactly that, a guess, whether you'll try to switch into a water or fairy resist, or something like Roserade and hope they don't click Psychic. Primarina is slow but has an amazing typing, passable physical bulk and great special bulk. Ninetales A will also be busted not because of the Pokemon's prowess but because of aurora veil, it will allow the large amount of extremely powerful wallbreakers/sweepers to set up. Venusaur has very few checks/counters, the ones that fulfill this role aren't very viable such as Silvally poison. Weezing G being the best defensive poison type in the tier will make it hard to use other poison types to check venusaur. Aside from them, all the other drops are handleable.
 

Moutemoute

Moot-Moot
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Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Encore
- Freeze-Dry
- Blizzard / Moonblast / Hail / Hypnosis
It's not new, Ninetales-Alola with Aurora Veil has always been an iffy combo to deal with in Underused and it hasn't changed. Just like Ninetales-A + Xurkitree + [insert setup sweeper.s] was unhealthy for the tier, Ninetales-A + Gyarados + [insert setup sweeper.s] is unhealthy right now. Ninetales-A is in my opinion the biggest issue we have at the moment, I played a few dozen of games to see how it was in the metagame and it's pretty brainless. 109 BS Speed + Aurora Veil is a real bless which allows Ninetales-Alola to set its Veil pretty easily. Ninetales-A can also bother quite a lot the opponent thanks to Encore / Hypnosis. Another big issue is that we loss 2 weather inducers : Hippowdon and Torkoal which means it's even easier for Ninetales-A to set the Veil for its teammates. Talking about teammates, those shifts has provided a ton of abusers under Aurora Veil : Gyarados, Necrozma, Toxtricity, Linoone, Celebi, Incineroar, Cobalion.. but also the old Lucario or Haxorus. All this Pokemon can easily become super threatening under Aurora Veil but also nearly impossible to revenge kill. So yeah, as usual, Aurora Veil Offense is the new black and I firmly believe Ninetales-Alola is our biggest issue right now and should leave as soon as possible.


Gyarados @ Lum Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots / Power Herb / Life Orb / Wacan Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce / Power Whip / Taunt
- Earthquake / Power Whip / Taunt
Gyarados is probably the second most troublesome Pokemon we got in these shifts, its speed tier is really nice since it allows it to outspeed base 80 speed Pokemon like Gardevoir. After a single Dragon Dance, Gyarados is able to spin out of control thanks to Moxie. This Pokemon is really hard to play around because of its moveset which can change a lot which allows it to pick its own checks. Avalugg is probably the best answer to hit even if it can lose vs DD + Taunt Gyarados. Gyarados can also run almost any item such as Lum Berry, Heavy-Duty Boots or Power Herb. I also faced and played DD + Wacan Berry Gyarados under Aurora Veil and I have to say that this set is really dumb because Gyarados is able to DD a second time when the opponent makes an agressive switch on something like Scarf Rotom-Mow which is able otherwise to pressure Gyarados after a Dragon Dance (Thunderbolt from max SpA Rotom-Mow does 38-45% to Wacan Berry Gyarados under Aurora Veil.. it's so dumb). Like Ninetales-Alola, Gyarados is a major issue for the tier and should be banned.


All this Pokemon are dangerous but I trully think they're not as unhealthy as the other two mentionned above and that's why I firmly believe we should wait before taking action against them. Linoone is not as threatening without Aurora Veil support and super berries have been nerfed while Celebi doesn't like at all new First Impression users etc.. I think we should ban the other two and then wait and see how the metagame evolves and adapts to these threats. But yeah screw both Ninetales-A and Gyarados !
 
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Thank god the other pokemon bans went thru before home. This is wild and everyone else put it way better than I ever could.

Im torn if gyarados abuses or dislikes bulky waters. It has good coverage with power whip and eq along with the potential to snowball with moxie and dd, but also hates burns and haze... Guess i have to figure it out
 

Sage

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Hey all, just here to give a little council update on where some of the discussion has been (and some assorted rambling from me.)

Right now, Alolatales is absolutely our top priority with how much it is warping the meta. Aurora Veil gives a backbone to allowing you to stack setup sweepers and powerful breakers with little to no consequences, and Alolatales is the orchestrator of all these broken teams. The move Aurora Veil is not being considered for a ban, as Vanilluxe and Abomasnow both have significant flaws compared to Alolatales, and there is precedent for this last gen with Sandslash-A + Aurorus teams seeing niche play at times, but those teams were deemed not broken and eventually faded away. The massive drop off of Speed from 109 to 79/60 is a huge fall in the consistency of getting your Veil up even once, and a low health Alolatales is much more likely to get a second chance to set. Access to Hypnosis allows it to sleep supposed checks like Gigalith and proceed to use Hail and just get the screens ball rolling again, and its other support options like Encore can cause major annoyance as well. With veils up stuff like Gyarados gets free Dragon Dances, Necrozma is legitimately impossible to OHKO with Veil + Prism Armor and it doesn't matter how well you play, it will always find a turn to get setup.

The view of Alolatales from the council at this point im pretty sure is unanimous and you should expect action on it shortly, now for my personal feelings I want to give things like Gyarados a chance without the support of Alolatales, but it may be deemed too powerful regardless. The set I've used so far on non Veil has been a DD 3 Attacks set with Intimidate and Heavy Duty Boots to help it check Fighting-types better. Power Whip is a huge gain in coverage for it allowing it to quickly get past bulky Waters, but it hasn't seemed like an unstoppable snowball in my ~10 games playing with the team. Gyarados can force techs on scarfers to hit it like Thunder Punch Flygon, and Rock Slide Golisopod can check non Bounce variants, but these moves also provide midground vs Noivern or a 100% acc move for other fliers so the moveslot isn't completely useless. My opinion may change on Gyara but right now I think it should at least get a few more days in a different meta.

Toxtricity is a good addition to the tier in my opinion. It plays relatively similarly to Dracozolt, forcing predictions between two powerful moves in Overdrive and Boomburst, but the Rock-types in Gigalith and Rhyperior were already seeing staple level usage and both naturally check it well, guaranteed at least one, and often getting multiple switches per game. Toxtricitys stabs are much easier to punish in my opinion, it can't throw on a Choice Scarf and instantly destroy with Bolt Beak like Dracozolt did, pokemon like Flygon, Chandelure, and Doublade can be used to punish a locked Toxtricity and force it to double switch to preserve momentum, limiting it to hit and runs. I haven't experimented with Shift Gear but I doubt it is as reliable as Choice sets would be.

Primarina hasn't been supremely difficult to deal with as its slow speed has mostly limited it to trade forcing once again, which it is still extremely good at to be fair. There really isn't much defensive counterplay but in this offensive meta it can't quite shine yet. Definitely one to keep an eye out on, perhaps Perish Song sets can make some waves, and I fully expect Calm Mind to pick up in the future.

Incineroar is a really interesting utility option that has a neat spread of defensive utility in checking Chandelure combined with Intimidate + Parting Shot / U-turn and Wisp, Heavy Duty Boots have given it a fresh start and I think it could potentially hold as a quality defensive pick.

Cobalion gives us another Steel-type and a rocker faster than dirt praise the lord, lack of Z-moves hurt it offensively but Stone Edge is a really good pick on it right now to smack Noivern and Chandelure, so Swords Dance sets can still put in work. Glad to have it back, nice addition that i'm guessing will cement into staple status once again like it did last gen. Volt Switch sets also are a really good pivot to get stuff like Rina / Toxtricity in on tanks like Doublade and Milotic.

Celebi is the main Pokemon I really haven't seen enough of to have an opinion of yet, Venusaur isn't going to be amazing with Hail / Sand all over the place and pokemon like Gardevoir acting as fantastic built in Sun checks, could potentially pick up more traction with bans like the rest of the meta. Virizion, Blastoise, Decidueye, and the rest of what we got all seem pretty worthless but hey maybe someone's made them work, I wouldn't count it out entirely.

Right now the meta has to slow down to accurately assess whats going on, Primarina / Toxtricity strike me as the biggest benefactors of this while Necrozma should probably be kept a close eye on as well. Expect more council members to make updates and apologies for not posting as frequently as many of them in the past month or two, I'll be doing my best to be more involved.
 

Twilight

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Just dropping my thoughts on some of the drops and share some sets I have enjoyed using. With regard to what the council has been talking about, I've already discussed this pretty extensively with Sage, so I basically agree with her sentiment around Aurora Veil and Gyarados. I personally think Veil has a decent amount of counterplay to prevent it from going up with weather, using faster Pokemon, and Infiltrator Noivern destroying most of these teams also. However, I think it's probably best for the tier if it was banned simply because I don't think it adds anything good to the tier, so as a result, I don't deem it to be very healthy.

I also think Gyarados deserves some time in a post veil meta to see if it's truly broken or not. Most of the issues I have found around Gyarados has been the fact that Veil just gives it too many opportunities. Usually, I find I put more effort into trying to play around screens than the Pokemon itself. I've played with and against Gyarados on teams outside of veil and I haven't found it to be as bad to deal with as I expected. I do think there is a good chance it will still be too much for the tier solely because it got Power Whip this generation but I really do agree with the sentiment of keeping it in the tier post a potential Veil ban. Anyways time for some cool mons/sets:


Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 84 SpD / 68 Spe
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz / whatever Fire coverage you want
- Knock Off
- Parting Shot
- Will-O-Wisp

I love Incineroar right now and I think it has so much potential in the tier. I've primarily been using this bulky pivot set, which lets you outspeed Golisopod to burn it/pivot, the SpD helps with rolls vs Chandy, and it has enough Def to avoid the 2HKO from Doublade CC after Intimidate. Incineroar provides so much utility with Parting Shot, Knock Off, and Will-O-Wisp to punish most of its usual pivots. Being a Dark-type that isn't weak to Fairy is also great because it can at least tank a hit from Specs Gardevoir. It's typing in general is super helpful for checking Chandelure, Polteageist, Doublade, Ninetales, and to an extent Roserade and Venusaur.



Cobalion @ Shuca Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Volt Switch
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Stealth Rock

Cobalion @ Shuca Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

Cobalion @ Shuca Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Focus Blast
- Calm Mind

Personally I think Swords Dance Cobalion is really difficult to pull off right now with Pokemon like Jellicent, Mantine, Chandelure, Toxtricity, Golisopod, Araq, and Gyarados being so popular. It makes it really difficult for it to pull off a sweep or break unless you are able to run Stone Edge in the last slot otherwise using SD + Rocks is a waste imo. Volt lets it grab momentum off all of these and prevents Gyarados using it as potential set up bait without taking over half. CM Coba is pretty cool because +1 Volt actually destroys most of its checks listed above and it's unphased by the potential Scald burns that are aimed at it. Overall a great addition to have back in the tier.



Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Giga Drain
- Earth Power / Protect / Shadow Ball

Likewise to what Sage said, I haven't seen much of this but it's pretty threatening with Nasty Plot and once the meta settles and slows down I'm sure Rocks sets will emerge. NP does have an issue with choosing between what walls or revenge kills it because you either go Earth Power for stuff like Drapion, Doublade, and Incineroar, use Shadow Ball for Doub and Bronzong or run Protect in the last slot to fck over Sirftech'd, Goli, and Haxorus that aim to rk it. In a tier where bulky Waters and Giga + Rhyp are so good it will def find a place as a top threat despite losing HP Fire. I guess it also got Aura Sphere for Umbreon but calcs at +2 are kinda depressing vs that lol.



Gyarados @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 128 Spe
Impish Nature
- Waterfall
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I know everyone is talking about DD Gyara but this is a cool set I've been using which honestly isn't half bad. It makes it a good check to the tiers Fighting-types with even eating up Facade from Machamp. Toxic pretty much punishes everything bar Rose and Venu that take Waterfall. Waterfall still does a good amount of damage even with having no attack investment in this tier. You also sit on the bulky Water-types and just stall them till they die to Toxic and check opposing DD Gyara decently well. Things like this are what makes me hope Gyara can stay in the tier to see how it can potentially play out outside of Veil



Dugtrio-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch

Okay, so this Pokemon honestly isn't half bad when you pair it with Gigalith thanks to Sand Force. We have limited offensive Ground-types and this one pairs well with Giga as a result. I'd say being 1 point faster than Alolan Ninetales, being able to beat Weezing which most Ground-types lose to, and being immune to two of Toxtrcity's STAB options gives it a decent niche in the tier. Nothing crazy but something worth trying.



Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overdrive
- Sludge Wave
- Boomburst
- Volt Switch / Toxic

Toxtricity is a really great breaker that provides so much utility with its typing. Specs Boomburst hits incredibly hard with it being able to round its coverage well with Overdrive and Sludge Wave to hit most of the tier. It's typing is amazing for not caring about Galarian Weezing, it absorbs Toxic Spikes, resists both STABs from Pokemon like Cobalion, Rotom-C, Hurricane + U-turn Vern, and Virizion. All of this is so huge for an offensive Pokemon in this tier. I don't think it is that overbearing right now when stuff like Rhyperior, Gigalith, and Bronzong are so good and it being pretty slow gives offensive teams out against it. I don't think Shift Gear is that good tbh compared to the immediate power of Specs but I guess it will have some viability. Definitely a great breaker we just got.

I've seen a lot of people talking about banning a bunch of these Mons but nothing strikes me as over the top bar Veil being unhealthy. I haven't been to impressed with much else bar Venu, which I don't have too much experience with. I'd say Blastoise has been the biggest disappointment out of all the drops, Shell Smash Stoise is just so bad in the tier. Noivern got infinitely better with how much more stuff it checks/beats though the Prima additions sucks for it. Overall, I don't think the tier is as bad as people have been making it out to be but I think it will be more enjoyable with Veil gone. Once Veil is gone other stuff can be looked into if their issues, I believe this to be the best course of action to throw my two cents in. Thanks for reading :D
 
Cobalion is fun because it can cover for you if your team has multiple Dark weaknesses. Your opponent won't want to use Knock Off because of the possibility that Cobalion might switch in and get the Attack boost and it just really fucks with people. I've been using it alongside Mr. Rime and Chandelure on a Webs team (it sounds bad and it probably is tbh) to more success than I should reasonably be getting. This combo is torn up by opposing Chandelure, so bring a counter if you want to succeed. Fighting-types that carry Knock Off are also a problem because Cobalion doesn't really want to come in on them and neither does Chandelure. Mr. Rime is bad but he can use Thunder Wave to ruin things that want to spinblock him, which is incredibly annoying because Umbreon (most common Heal Bell user) doesn't really like Cobalion at all and would rather it didn't exist.

please unban me from uu discord im cool dude#3118 and i dont even remember why i was banned in the first place
 

TDK

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Hello all!

Hogg, myself, and the rest of the UU Council came to a decision expedite a vote to immediately tackle the changes made to the tier from the March drops, as such we made no post announcing said vote prior to now. However, the UU Council came to a unanimous decision to BAN ALOLAN NINETALES.



It may come as no surprise to many that Aurora Veil is a big problem for UU yet again. Within the tier at the moment, there are a vast multitude of offensive threats, both old and newly gained from the latest drops, all of which's potency is exponentially furthered thanks to Alolan Ninetales. As you all should know, Alolan Ninetales' ability immediately summons Hail, thus allowing Aurora Veil to be used instantly with no partners or prior setup necessary. This has skewed the metagame in an egregious way. Every team at the moment falls under one of two categories; teams with Aurora Veil Ninetales and teams built to beat Aurora Veil teams.

While counterplay exists, its scope is incredibly narrow and is inefficient. The immediate reaction to stopping Aurora Veil will surely be either set up your own weather or to OHKO Alolan Ninetales before it can set up Aurora Veil. However, these are far from surefire and easily exploitable. Say you pick to use a team with Gigalith or (Kanto) Ninetales to combat Aurora Veil teams, and you switch into these weather setters when Alolan Ninetales hits the playing field. Now they click Hail. What now? Resetting weather is far from a guaranteed means of stopping Aurora Veil, and should your form of counterplay rely on this, you'll be left exposed should it fail. The other method of OHKOing Alolan Ninetales before it can set Veil is way easier to speak of in theory than in practice. The pool of Pokemon that are naturally faster and capable of OHKOing Alolan Ninetales consists of three Pokemon; Salazzle, CB Cinccinno, and CB Barraskewda. Choice Scarf Pokemon that have the potential to surprise Alolan Ninetales are also fine options. However, all of these bar Salazzle have the same issue; they're choice locked and allow free setup, even if your opponent fails to recognize that they should switch Alolan Ninetales out and set up Aurora Veil later. Against offensive teams, a free turn may be all it takes for the game to end. On top of the fact that they could easily switch out, preserve Alolan Ninetales as well as get the free opportunity to setup while you're choiced locked drives home just how limited the counterplay is.

Bar the aforementioned methods of counterplay, which are quite inefficient, exist two more; Infiltrator Pokemon and sweep before they do. Noivern and Chandelure, while both are incredible Pokemon in the tier, are not at their best against offensive teams, as they can be easily picked off or used as setup fodder, even without the boosted defenses Aurora Veil provides. These two Pokemon can be great tools against Aurora Veil, they alone are not means to call it a day. Aiming to sweep before they sweep is a foolish strategy on paper, but can work in some instances. To call it sufficient, though, is not appropriate.

Overall, Aurora Veil from Alolan Ninetales absolutely warps the metagame. While Alolan Ninetales only acts in support of the many potent offensive threats our tier has to offer, we deemed it to be the appropriate target rather than picking and choosing between each and every offensive threat that Aurora Veil boosts. On the matter of Alolan Ninetales vs. Aurora Veil as a whole, Vanilluxe has already existed within the metagame, and was not deemed to be problematic at the time. Should this change, and Vanilluxe led Aurora Veil teams become problematic, we will look into the matter again in the future. But as it stands, Alolan Ninetales is now BANNED from SS UU. If The Immortal or Marty could handle this when they have the time, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

vivalospride

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Laddered for a while tonight and I was really bracing for the shittiest time of my life but honestly it didn't feel too bad. I abstained on the alotales vote simply bc I hadn't played post-drops yet. It is 3am and as usual I find myself unable to sleep and spontaneously opened my laptop to make this post.

I was using Gyara during my ladder sesh and I faced a gyara almost every game it felt like, I'm having a hard time saying it's broken, if I'm being honest. I think it is way way way easier to defensively answer than things like Haxorus and it's speed tier + 4x weakness to electric makes it easier to play around offensively as well. Not to say it isn't very strong, because it is, it is an extremely potent cleaner/sweeper with Moxie + DD, it cleaned a few times late game for sure vs ill-prepared teams. With bulky waters having Toxic again, Rotom-C coming back, I think Gyara is something we can keep at bay? Not to mention options like tpunch on Scarf Flygon reliably revenge it at +1, which is neat, random elec coverage wooooo. This mon is on the border if anything

Prima I didn't face too much and when I did i think my opps didnt wield it very proficiently, so my opinion on this is mostly just based on how it looks on paper/my own thoughts. Prima last gen was extremely powerful as it is, and we had Blissey, Empoleon, Amoonguss, MANY MORE RAW MOONBLAST RESISTS, and so on. It's hard to imagine this thing isn't overwhelming as fuck in this gen, especially with it's typing both offensively and defensively being so coveted in this tier. We have very few fairy types and waters have been incredible since the start of this tier, I don't wanna definitively say this is worth looking at over everything else bc I don't have too much experience with it yet but if I had to form an opinion rfn that's what it would be.

Coba is fine, glad I can use a rocker on offense that isn't mamoswine for once in my life. It's atk stat is still ass cheese and it's speed tier is very helpful I think. Healthy mon!

I'm in love with Incineroar, I think it's typing is quite good for this tier as it can somewhat check the new drop in Celebi as well as the dominant ghost types that have been around from the getgo in Doublade, Chandelure, and the teapot. I experimented with it on like, webs, with SD, and it didn't seem bad. But some bulkier set with knock and parting shot is awesome, great glue, very excited for it to be in this tier.

I'm having a hard time forming an opinion on Celebi bc on paper it sounds kinda busted but z moves don't exist anymore so maybe it's okay? Idk I will get more experience with it, spdef darks have been mandatory from the beginning of this gen but EP hits Drapion and Incineroar so it's kinda difficult, not to mention the fact that this tier has zero steel types. Escav might surge in usage tbh.

Didn't have much of an issue answering Toxtricity, it's definitely powerful but it's speed tier is pretty lackluster and it’s STABS have immunities! Also gives another viable flying resist to this tier that is solod by Noivern so I hope we keep it.

This whole post was nothing but a ploy, a scheme if you will, we're actually banning every single one of the above mons in an attempt to make stall reign over UU. Have fun while offense lasts kiddos, fuckin idiots, soon we council members will be topping the ladder with nothing but STALL, while you guys are forced to complain about it in this very np thread... only to have nobody listen to you >:D

Every night each council member gathers in a circle in an undisclosed location to pray to their lord and savior pokeisfun

We're bringing stall back in his name

I hope to see you hobgoblins taking part in uupl whether it be as a player or spectator, this is one of the best times of the year for this shitty community

reminder that anything is possible when your man smells like old spice and not a lady, I’m on a horse.
 
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Been playing a few games today now that Alolan Ninetales is gone (thank god, Aurora Veil was brainless with Ninetales), and honestly everything seems pretty dang healthy in tier. So I thought I drop some thoughts on certain mons, how they turned out from I originally thought:



Funny enough I forgot to talk about Gyarados when it dropped with the rest but my assumption on how it would perform seems correct, it's really good but it definitely needs support. Like viva said, defensive counter-play is there via stuff like Umbreon, Milotic (if they lack Whip, which some do for some reason?), Weezing can take a hit and Will-O non-Lum Berry variants etc. Even offensive stuff like Mow-tom can take a hit and revenge kill it. Speaking of Mow-tom, it's a scarfer that beats +1 Gyara and like viva also said Scarf Flygon with TPunch is getting ran a bit.

The sets I've been seeing are Sub+DD (EQ/Waterfall), DD+3 Attacks (either Lum, Lefties or Boots), Scarf and Defensive but generally all those mons I Iisted check all of these sets. So yeah, has great potential end game but isn't the "breaker" like Haxorus.

(Also I think Crunch is superior to Bounce, Bounce is easier to work around than Crunch imo. Crunch still hits stuff like Celebi but now you hit Bronzong and Doublade for super-effective damage. EQ is also a option if you want to hit Doublade harder as well as Cobalion.)



Back on the topic of Mow-tom, I honestly think it's the tier's best scarfer due to it being able to role compress when the time is needed. It's speed tier also notable, being faster than Scarf Gardevoir, so that's cool. I've seen Scarf + Defog (usually with Trick), Scarf + Nasty Plot (once again with Trick) which can cripple stuff like Umbreon and as well as other non-scarf sets (Nasty Plot + Toxic/T-Wave, Bulky Pivot with Defog, Choice Specs etc.) It's just really good at everything it seems. Definitely glad this guy dropped 'cause he adds a lot to the tier.


Pretty much what I expected, good offensive rocker. Seen SD + Stealth Rocks, Volt Switch or the best version I believe, Stealth Rock + Taunt. Taunt helps it from being setup fodder to Doublade and Gyarados etc. whilst pressuring defensive mons like Milotic, Vaporeon, Umbreon, Weezing etc. It also is capable of beating most other rockers probably bar Rhyperior due it's insane physical bulk. Threatens Mamoswine lead with Iron Head flinch on Focus Sash variants or just CC on LO. Probably our best offensive rocker in tier.



Virizion is pretty meh, but not bad. Has a hard time breaking teams with stuff like Weezing + Celebi due it's 4SMS (it wants to run Megahorn and Zen Headbutt). It's walled by stuff like Doublade as well, and it doesn't help that Noivern completely blows it away. This mon definitely is dropping to RU at some point but it still has a nice niche of breaking both Umbreon and Milotic.


Primarina forces pretty heavy mind games on your opponent, do I switch-in to check Hydro or Moonblast? I've seen Sub+CM, Choice Specs and even Defensive RestTalk with Scald + Toxic/Moonblast. Really strong Pokemon and probably the hardest to check defensive out of everything in the tier.



Toxtricity is one of those boom or bust Pokemon I feel. Some games it's really good, while others it feels useless. It's problem is that all the moves it wants to throw out have immunities, so it's like Primarina in a sense but unlike Primarina only 1-move has a potential immunity (via Vaporeon or Gastrodon). Though it offers pivoting unlike Primarina, and if you make a mistake by going into you're Ground-type on Boomburst then you're in for a world of hurt. The best sets are Scarf and Specs, while Shift Gear + Throat Spray seems ass, you proc Throat Spray but the same things that tank Specs just force you out.



Not as good as I expected it to be, but still a very good mon non-the-less. Nasty Plot can just straight beat certain teams, Stealth Rock + T-Wave also is a good offensive rocker and even Defensive support does really good. I wonder how SD variants, Defensive CM and Scarf would do, hopefully we'll seem them as more testing is done.


Blastoise is just bad, it's gonna drop to RU or stay UU as one of those mons that suck but lower ladder loves them (looking at you Morpeko). It just can't break bulky waters, especially now that Mantine has picked up traction. Maybe if Hidden Power was ever added back into the game via the DLC it would be good? But I wouldn't get my hopes up.



Sun with Venusaur seems actually manageable in tier, but that's maybe due to not being able to role compress with Torkoal? Still a very strong mon, it reminds me a lot of Gen 4 UU with stuff like Weezing, Milo, Umbreon and Venusaur being really good. Good times. If Torkoal drops in the future (so long as this doesn't rise back up to OU), I would like to see how it performs with better support outside of Ninetales.



Super cool addition, Parting Shot or U-turn Pivots with Boots seems like the most common set and it's understandable why. It checks a lot of stuff like Doublade, Celebi, Chandelure etc. SD with Webs also seems pretty solid choice of a set. Choice Band can bring a lot of hurt, plus has the ability to pivot with U-turn. This thing was a monster when Alolan Ninetales was around with the Bulk Up/Taunt/Flame Charge/Power Trip set with Weakness Policy, so I think with Dual Screens or even Aurora Veil with Vanilluxe, this set can go to town still.



This is by far my favourite drop. It was a behemoth on Veil and still is with Dual Screen support, using DD Weakness Policy (Photon Geyser/EQ/X-Scissor as it's offensive moves). I've been using Female Indeedee with Healing Wish + Screens support and this thing goes to town when Psychic Terrain is up. Females Indeedee not only offers Healing Wish and Screens but terrain prevents it being revenge killed by priority mid-sweep or just breaking walls, which is why it's a better than Espeon imo. Necrozma can still do a load of other stuff as well, such as: Offensive Stealth Rocker, CM Stored Power, SD Wall-breaker, Bulky Screens setter etc. You name, Necrozma could probably do. The sets I been using for Indeedee and Necrozma are below, I recommended putting them on a Balance Offense team as I find Hyper Offense is harder to run with Indeedee than Espeon.

Necrozma @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- X-Scissor

Indeedee-F @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Healing Wish
 
This thing was a monster when Alolan Ninetales was around with the Bulk Up/Taunt/Flame Charge/Power Trip set with Weakness Policy, so I think with Dual Screens or even Aurora Veil with Vanilluxe, this set can go to town still.
I created an alt during the Veil Meta, running A-Ninetales and the same Incinerorar set but with Drain Punch>Taunt, that shit was a fucking monster, it was even able to take advantage of opposing Sun Teams and use some Mons like Ninetales Kanto, Gweez and Chandelure as Set Up folders. It was funny to run that.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1073362208-dqkq3vxrkzqykprnv7wwgla04miv3ctpw
Saddly on this one Incinerorar didn't get an entire sweep but made big pressure for a while, I used it just for fun but it was a monster xd.
 
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Estarossa

i'm not nice
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
After first being put completely off by these shifts, I actually got around to playing quite a bit yesterday and today and have found this meta to not be quite as bad as I was first expecting. It's definitely taken some adjustment, and I feel that Gyarados is generally just really unhealthy and needs to go due to a severe lack of defensive counterplay, with a lot of it like Thunderbolt Weezing being able to be flinched through, although I've been using Bulky Gyarados of my own to counter it a fair amount lately, but other than this a lot of the drops like Celebi / Inceroar / Blastoise / Cobalion have been really positive.

Not really seen a huge amount of Primarina yet so don't really wanna comment either way on it, but it definitely seems very nasty on paper with very few checks, and the ability to just run Perish Trap to braek through those few defensive ones that do try and switch in etc. Venusaur is nice while it sticks around, but the chances are very massive we're only keeping Venusaur until next shifts so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wanted to post a few thoughts on a couple of other mons with some sets I've been using that I've been personally enjoying, and talk about a few mons I've found myself relying on pretty heavily on post shifts honestly for checking some of the new stuff we got.

:ss/celebi:

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 136 HP / 176 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Healing Wish
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

EV explanation: 196 Speed to outspeed Jolly Mamo (and enough spA to ohko it after LO dmg guaranteed), rest in bulk. Can up the speed to outspeed roserade and get fast u-turn, but I've been typically running this with escavalier anyway, and slow u-turn on lucario can be nice if it figures out you don't have psychic).

People have been talking about Celebi a decent amount already, but what I've been really enjoying on it is a Rocks + Healing Wish Mesprit Celebi set, which is really nice addition for very offensive teams with the role compression it can provide, a nice water-type check, pivoting etc and the supre valuable healing wish support all in one slot. This just goes amazingly with stuff like Machamp and Gyarados especially, letting you wallbreak with them early game more freely, and is so nice for offensive weezing too.


:ss/venusaur:

Venusaur @ Black Sludge
Ability: Overgrow / Chlorophyll
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 124 SpD / 136 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed
- Sludge Bomb

EV Explanation: outspeeds pangoro/centiskortch, rest in spdef to make prim matchup as nice as possible. Overgrow nice for buffed giga's if u get low, but chloro isn't unhelpful ig.

Specially defensive Venusaur is a really nice addition to our tier honestly, helping to provide a more bulky Grass/Poison than Roserade to check stuff like Offensive Weezing, and Primarina, while actually being able to switch into stuff like Rhyperior, trading some of the power and speed to be able to fit on really fat teams super nicely. Bulky grounded Poison's are especially nice for all the toxic spikes roserade/weezing use too, and honestly not super easy to fit onto fat balance without this thing. Leech seed is honestly a nice option, though ive seen people using earth power instead, that really helps to make up for Gigalith's commonness and the lack of PP on synthesis, and punishes switch ins like escavalier and bronzong honestly better than any coverage would, and the passive healing can be nice for teammates like Weezing too if u manage to like pull in an umbreon or something.

:ss/blastoise:

Blastoise @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Toxic
- Scald
- Ice Beam

EV explanation: outspeed barbaracle (and sirfetch'd) init

Bit of a crazy set, but I wanted to try and do something with Blastoise other than trying Shell Smash, which can honestly just be answered by running Haze waters so is pretty eh, was feeling the DPP UU vibes so tried specs out. It's honestly a fairly powerful wallbreaker, even 2hkoing umbreon with rocks up, and can be pretty nice late game if Water resists / immunities are dead, or early game when people aren't really expecting you to just be specs. When low hp, torrent scald is also fairly powerful once again which is nice.

So like while this thing can't at all break bulky waters, Its definitely got the room to run Toxic on its moveset, since it only really needs dual water stabs + ice beam for venu/noivern. We also just got some great new anti water mons in Venusaur, Virizion, Celebi, and Mowtom, so there's lots more room to pressure them than there was before. Been running this with said Healing Wish Celebi above, which allows it to try and break early game and still fire off super powerful spouts late game if it looks likely, since they are incredibly hard to eat without spdef water resists.

Compared to like Inteleon it obviously doesn't bring the same power outside of its STAB and speed, but it does provide some half decent defensive utility thanks to its bulk, and that unpredictability. Wouldn't exactly recommend this as anything amazing, but really fun to play with and honestly not that bad.

------------------

:ss/escavalier:

Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 112 Def / 44 SpD / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Knock Off / Drill Run
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

EV explanation: 112 Defence guarantees u live 2 EQs from CB haxorus, 84 speed to outspeed reuniclus because LO focus blast really hurts otherwise, 16+ attack for the jump point and guaranteeing ohko on umbreon after rocks while minimising foul play damage.

Escavalier has definitely benefitted from these shifts, and been finding myself using it more than ever due to it now being an excellent check to Celebi on top of Roserade/Psychics. Cobalion rising has been pretty annoying for this honestly though, so I have been finding myself dropping Knock Off for Drill Run when necessary, and usually will already have paired it with another knock user like Machamp in these situations, as otherwise it completely walls you. (This also lets you kill Lucario which can be nice i guess).

:ss/weezing-galar:

Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Strange Steam
- Thunderbolt
- yea filler shove whatever you want here

I mean everyone who knows me knows how much I love offensive Weezing, but I've been finding it extra useful post shifts, with Thunderbolt as its 3rd attacking move now, for its ability to deal with Gyarados, and eat hits from it as long as it has a decent amount of HP and isnt flinched. Thunderbolt is also just a general nice option that was hard to justify previously but really helps punish Bulky waters, especially Mantine. Its also a nice check to defensive Primarina, although I haven't been wasting too much EVs on speed for offensive primarina due to its ability to just keep creeping you and having no guarantees u actually outspeed it outside of seeing weather damage. Incineroar dropping is also really nice by providing a great switch in to like Doublade/Escavalier that you might have previously been reluctant to drop Fire Blast because of.
 
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Adaam

Light Machoke
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis the 8th Grand Slam Winner
Admittedly I haven't played a statistically significant amount of games (as a stats major, a sample size >= 30 is sufficient). That being said, there are 2 big sore thumbs that I will likely not be changing my opinion on.

Primarina is beyond broken. I thought I was safe when Dexit was announced. I thought I was safe when it was OU as a Hydreigon check. But like an ill-conceived child you refuse to care for, Prim finds a way to fuck me over in life and ruin my favorite tier. Except in this generation, we have no Blissey, Empoleon, Amoonguss, Volcanion, or Tentacruel. Instead, we have a frail rose and...Snorlax? Yeah Specs clicks Moonblast and claims kill every game. It's slow as shit yes, but it has godlike typing and special bulk that lets it hard switch in infinitely more times than something faster like Mamoswine or Haxorus.

Gyarados I was curious to see without Veil, but it's still pretty bonkers. I thought I was cute running Protect Celebi until it Crunched me as I plotted up and lost. Then I ran a Rotom-Mow and died to Ice Fang. It picks and chooses its counters and finds many setup opportunities to clean with the addition of timbs. I don't think forcing a scarf Electric-type or Thunderpunch Flygon on every team constitutes a healthy Pokemon, so I'd like it gone too.

Speaking of Celebi, this is the toughest one for me to assess of all the drops. The inverse power creep is so, so nice for it. Base 100 is fast in this metagame, and we lack Steel-types to keep it at bay bar Bronzong/Escav. No Pursuit as well is huge as fuck since this thing comes in, deals some solid damage or kills something, switches out freely and repeats. Stuff like Incin and Drapion pray it doesn't have Earth Power, but it cannot run it without being revenged by First Impression spam w/o Protect. We do however have decent revenge killers with Noivern, Flygon, Scarf Braviary, and Inteleon, as well as soft checks like Centiskorch, Doublade, and Mamoswine. This probably needs more time to settle before deeming it too much but I won't be surprised if it ends up being unmanageable.

Toxtricity I think is fine. It lacks "true" counters like Primarina but has no bulk ans awful typing. All of it's attacks have immunities and are nowhere near as spammable as Moonblast. It has semi-reliable defensive counterplay in Rhyperior, Gigalith, Umbreon, Bronzong, and even cool stuff like AV Golurk. Trace Garde can also pull off some cheeky stuff with Trace resisting sound moves. It's still a very powerful threat but not as crazy as Prim or Gyarados.

Love Incineroar btw.
 
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Indigo Plateau

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Haven’t gotten a chance to play much after the first couple of days post-drops, but I still spectate ladder games a lot in the background while I work. I’ve also played a few friendlies & since I haven’t posted in a while, figured now would be a good time. I’m only gonna touch on the things that I have strong opinions about.


Pre-drops, these were two mons that I wanted to see voted on. Mamo has no safe switch-ins thanks to Knock Off. If you think that Araquanid/Avalugg/GWeezing can handle it then sorry but you’re wrong. All of these depends pretty heavily on their item, and after being Knocked, they can really only come in once, maybe twice, without getting destroyed by EQ. Icicle Crash is nice but not 100% necessary which means that Heavy Slam is an option to beat Weez. Ice Shard also makes it so that most faster mons can’t even revenge kill if not being mostly healthy.

Gardevoir is also a pain in the ass to handle thanks to our Steel-types sucking. Specs Moonblast has never been so free LOL. Zong is pretty good and there’s some naturally specially bulky mons that can eat some hits, but having to force one of these on your teams isn’t fun. Although maybe not “broken”, I truly think that this thing constraints building to a point that is unhealthy. It’s going to be claiming kills pretty much every game.


Somewhere in the US, a young lady named Adaam wakes up every morning hoping for Prim to be banned. Unlike SM, I think her dreams will finally come true. Prim is basically a slower but bulkier version of Garde, and unlike Garde, it actually has no switch-ins. Better defensive typing also means that it’s not as easy to revenge kill it. This shouldn’t be new to anyone that’s been playing UU for a while now. If this had better checks I think it’d actually be really good for the tier, but Specs is way too limiting in the builder as it stands. Please leave.


I’ve heard people say that Gyara isn’t as bad as they initially thought it would be after Veil’s ban, and I couldn’t disagree more. “Scarf Electric-types are so common” and “GWeezing / Avalugg can easily check it” are terrible arguments in my book. Adaam already mentioned this but having to need a scarf Rotom-C or Helio or random Electric coverage on every team solely to revenge this is pretty dumb. No one is realistically going to use Avalugg on a non-stallish build (yes, I’ve tried it) and physically defensive mons like Weez are very easy to wear down via Knock, hazards, flinch chance, etc. Not to mention that this mon gets: Waterfall, Power Whip, Bounce, Earthquake, and Ice Fang to choose from for coverage. And Substitute. And Taunt. And Choice sets. While the last options may not be as “good” or common yet, that doesn’t mean that they can’t be useful. Cons that this brings to the tier >>> Pros.

I don’t think Toxtricity is too bad to handle, I personally haven’t used Celebi enough and think that after a couple more possible bans it’ll be easier to gauge, Incineroar being a good pivot and checking Chandy is great, Venusaur sun can be really lethal, Necrozma is cool, and Morpeko is still a lot of fun to use. Thanks for reading :toast:
 
I didn't realize Gamefreak would do something so silly as giving Gyarados Power Whip. Without Power Whip Gyarados is still plenty powerful but it's feasible that it could stay. With power whip it becomes impossible to counter. Power whip hits all bulky waters. Those with a secondary typing that resists grass such as Qwilfish fall to earthquake. Or even those with a very unique typing such as Duralodon still fall to earthquake. Sub-DD muscles through many defensive pokemon that would otherwise stand a chance at stopping a sweep, such as toxic Bronzong. Bounce eliminates grass types. The only way you'll counter Gyarados is by sheer luck having just the pokemon to cover one of its many sets. The best counter to Gyarados probably is Gyarados itself. This Pokemon leaving the tier is pure benefit as it feels overcentralizing in a way like Scizor was except it has an offensive presence that puts Gen 7 Scizor to shame. Gyarados needs to go, and hopefully Primarina will as well. Primarina has 0 defensive counterplay and isn't hard to switch in. It might be slow but it literally has to click one button and something on your team WILL die. With those two gone the tier may have a semblance of caring about defensive team builds.
 

Moutemoute

Moot-Moot
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
So I played a good amount of games on both my main and my alt Poloremplo so I figured out it's time to talk in depth about the drops we got.


Unlike other players, I didn't found Celebi to be overwhelming while I was playing. I don't know if it's because I always had something do deal with it or if players I faced didn't know how to use it properly but it never managed to be too much of a threat. Celebi is for sure a great Pokémon in the tier but it has an insanely bad 4 MSS when it comes to its Nasty Plot set. Celebi has 3 free slots (the 4th one being Nasty Plot) but it needs so much moves.. Psychic ang Giga-Drain are 2 greats STAB but it doesn't give a great coverage to Celebi. Shadow Ball is almost mandatory in order to beat Bronzong while Earth Power is needed to beat Doublade but mosly Incineroar (which is a dope Pokémon). On the other hand, Celebi does need Protect because First Impression is everywhere in this tier and it nukes Celebi into the oblivion. Celebi struggles to beat everything it would want and I think it has natural good checks on most of teams. Obviously Celebi has a great match-up vs common threats such as Toxtricity, Primarina or common staples such as Milotic, Vaporeon, Gigalith, Rhyperior or Weezing-Galar and that's why I think some people find it a bit too great.


Just like in SM, Cobalion stands out as a great staple in the tier thanks to its typing which allows it to threaten commons cores like Umbreon + Weezing-Galar while still being able to bring a lot of utility to a team thanks to Stealth Rock / Taunt. Cobalion is going to be a great Pokémon in the tier without being too good. It still doesn't beat Doublade and can be keep in check by bulky Water-types or Noivern, Gyarados, Chandelure or Centiskorch if it lacks Stone Edge. I love that Pokemon because it's a blanket check to so much Pokemon thanks to its typing and bulk, it will always be useful regardless of the opponent's team.


Alright so this one is a bit iffy for me. A weeks ago, I wanted to ban this shit at 100% but now that Ninetales-Alola is gone, I'm not sure if Gyarados is broken/unhealthy for the tier or not. Obviously it's a mesmerizing threat which is able to bypass its checks thanks to its movepool. Like Adaam and Indigo Plateau, I've faced some dumb shit Gyarados with Ice Fang which fuck up Rotom-Mow on the switch-in. This may be the biggest issue with Gyarados, the fact that it can run just so much moves but unlike Celebi I think it's much more harder to deal with it. Basically Gyarados will always run Dragon Dance + Waterfall but the two fillers are a real issue to figure out.. between Bounce, Earthquake, Power Whip, Ice Fang, Crunch, Taunt, Rest + Chesto Berry.. just BRUUUUUUH. Gyarados can also run a shit ton of item like Leftovers, Heavy-Duty Boots, Lum Berry, Power Herb etc.. However, even if Gyarados is a top threat I'm not sure yet it's ban worthy. It struggles to beat some staples depending of its sets and things like Umbreon (even without EVs in defense) can check it pretty well as long as Waterfall doesn't flinch.


I'm not going to beat around the bush, Primarina is fucked up. It's basically a Gardevoir 2.0 with even better offensive and defensive typing which is able to nuke absolutely anything in the tier. Even max spd bulky Water-types are fucked by Specs Moonblast if they get chipped just a little bit. Primarina also has the coverage to beat its checks like Venusaur or Roserade thanks to Psychic / Ice Beam. The only Pokemon which is able to take 2/3 hits from Specs Primarina is max spd Ferroseed.. fuck that. And the worst is that Choice Specs Primarina isn't the only viable set of Primarina because Sub+CM, defensive Rest-Talk and even Rest-Talk CM are viable sets. tl;dr : fuck Primarina.


Like Primarina, Toxtricity is an insanely powerful special wallbreaker. Its checks are really limited (basically Rhyperior & Steelix.. SpD Umbreon to a really lesser extent) and Toxtricity forces some nasty 50/50. Although its offensive coverage isn't the best for sure, its sheer power offset that for sure. Boomburst has a great neutral coverage which allow Toxtricity to abuse of it pretty freely. While I don't think that Toxtricity is as much threatening as Primarina, I still believe it may be an issue for slower teams.


This three are overall a great addition to the tier. Incineroar is a great pivot thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots + Parting Shot and a great checks to physical threat thanks to Intimidate. It's overall a really nice Pokémon. The same applies to Venusaur which is another nice Pokemon. It shares a lot of things with Roserade but trades sheer force for a much better bulk. It also has a better coverage than Roserade thanks to Earth Power and utility moves such as Knock Off. Last but not least Necrozma is another useful Stealth Rock setter / sweeper. While I think it may struggles as a special breaker because it faces some competition from Gardevoir, Necrozma has some real benefits such as a much better bulk and a great defensive ability. Even though it really struggles to beat some staples such as Umbreon (because of its lack of Fighting coverage) it still a great Pokémon with either Stealth Rock, Dragon Dance or Swords Dance. Not a lot to say about it, I didn't use it that much.
 
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Lilburr

windless night
is a Pre-Contributor
So I think we all know at this point; regardless of whether or not you believe they're broken, we've certainly gotten some highly threatening Pokemon in this tier shift.

:ss/celebi: :ss/primarina: :ss/toxtricity: :ss/rotom-mow: :ss/venusaur:

I have been building countless teams trying to find a way to beat all of these monsters without making myself excessively weak to established staples like Mamoswine and Chandelure, and I haven't had much luck. That is, until I started thinking outside the box.
I was thinking about how Toxtricity's moveset, while ridiculously powerful, is resisted in its entirety by a few Pokemon.

:ss/steelix:
Steelix immediately jumped to mind as a viable option, but once I saw that it could only switch into Boomburst one time reliably I pretty much gave up on that idea. It's an okay check for some defensive teams and has a lot of other merit as a Stealth Rock setter but I just wasn't a fan overall.

:ss/stunfisk-galar:
I had a little more luck with this thing as a dedicated Toxtricity answer that could also handle a couple of other threats like Noivern, but honestly it just wasn't that good. It was notable for its access to Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave, but the fact that it didn't have a Steel-type STAB move (seriously, please give it Iron Head OR JUST MAKE SNAP TRAP STEEL) to beat the Fairies it was supposed to check made it pretty bad. Still a decent enough niche option for teams.

At this point, I was starting to feel desperate. It felt like there was no way to beat any of these things reliably. But the stars aligned, and in the shadows I remembered one of my favourite Pokemon of all time, and decided to give it a little test.

Rat Time

:ss/togedemaru:
Togedemaru's niche as a Toxtricity answer was what made me interested in the first place. Being immune to Overdrive and Volt Switch due to Lightning Rod, immune to Sludge Bomb and Toxic due to Steel typing AND resisting Boomburst was all very attractive, in addition to reliable recovery in Wish. I thought I'd have to compensate a lot because it'd only check Toxtricity, but boy was I wrong. This little rat does so much more.

:toxtricity: :heliolisk: :gardevoir: :espeon: :duraludon: :celebi: :venusaur: :morpeko: :reuniclus: :primarina: :weezing-galar:

I've found myself switching into all of these Pokemon and more with Togedemaru and using them as free momentum or healing. Sure, some of them can carry coverage to threaten you, but it's easily scouted for and it often doesn't kill you anyway. It then allows you to either start smacking the aforementioned Pokemon with your moves or get a slow pivot out of them into another teammate that can appropriately threaten them.

It's genuinely a really solid option rn. I used the Choice Scarf set in alpha, and it was okay, but I didn't really pay much mind to the idea of a defensive one. Now that I have, I can confidently say it works.

:togedemaru:
Eggstatic (Togedemaru) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Spiky Shield
- Iron Head
- U-turn

This is what I've been running. The speed EVs allow you to outspeed Adamant Sirfetch'd/Jolly Machamp. Not really a huge deal, but you can annoy them with Spiky Shield and maybe even revenge kill them if they're low enough.

I really recommend people try this thing you if you're struggling with the new drops. It does need some extra backbone; Prim can just Hydro you if you don't have a resist in the back, and Celebi/Venusaur can Earth Power (though you should avoid switching into sets carrying those moves anyway if possible) etc. but that's the case for any defensive mon in the tier. I'll share the team I used to try it out. I made it pretty quickly and I'm sure it could be better, but so far it's been working perfectly fine for me.

click me for the paste!
 
The only way you'll counter Gyarados is by sheer luck having just the pokemon to cover one of its many sets. The best counter to Gyarados probably is Gyarados itself.
Gyrados counters gyrados? Doesn’t it just like, die to bounce?
Anyway something I feel that is being overlooked here is ways to revenge kill gyrados after it has set up, like, Heliolisk, outspeeding +2 adamant, scarf rotom-C, outspeeds +1 jolly, as well as switching into any nuetral attack, and other miscellaneous scarfers I don’t remember, like tpunch Flygon, something someone else had mentioned.

Having said that, I totally agree with Indigo when he says "I’ve heard people say that Gyara isn’t as bad as they initially thought it would be after Veil’s ban, and I couldn’t disagree more. “Scarf Electric-types are so common” and “GWeezing / Avalugg can easily check it” are terrible arguments in my book. Adaam already mentioned this but having to need a scarf Rotom-C or Helio or random Electric coverage on every team solely to revenge this is pretty dumb. No one is realistically going to use Avalugg on a non-stallish build (yes, I’ve tried it) and physically defensive mons like Weez are very easy to wear down via Knock, hazards, flinch chance, etc. Not to mention that this mon gets: Waterfall, Power Whip, Bounce, Earthquake, and Ice Fang to choose from for coverage. And Substitute. And Taunt. And Choice sets. While the last options may not be as “good” or common yet, that doesn’t mean that they can’t be useful. Cons that this brings to the tier >>> Pros. "

I'm not rlly playing devil's advocate, just trying to look at both sides
 

Moutemoute

Moot-Moot
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Anyway something I feel that is being overlooked here is ways to revenge kill gyrados after it has set up, like, Heliolisk, outspeeding +2 adamant, scarf rotom-C, outspeeds +1 jolly, as well as switching into any nuetral attack, and other miscellaneous scarfers I don’t remember, like tpunch Flygon, something someone else had mentioned.
Just want to highlight that Gyarados should not run Adamant, never. One of its big advantage is that it can outspeed Scarf 80 BS Speed after a DD so running Adamant seems super dumb.
 
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