np: SS UU Stage 3: As the World Falls Down (Venusaur banned, see post 110)

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Finchinator

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Have not been playing UU much, but I decided to get reqs here. I think it's pretty clear that Mamoswine should be banned.

Used a team with the Life Orb variant and it was able to make progress each game, even if facing one of the few checks or a tech to slow its progress (i.e: Balloon/Shuca Cobalion), while being absolutely devastating sometimes. Mamoswine may not be particularly durable, but it is not overly challenging to get in safely, especially thanks to Ice Shard threatening a large portion of the faster metagame. The combination of Earthquake and Icicle Crash allows for it to break through just about everything, too. Fully defensive Milotic can potentially eat two Earthquakes from full without hazards up, but a Knock Off on the switch-in or some hazards being set can lead to this not being a serviceable answer either (especially if you run Adamant, which I personally did not). Golis can also stomach a few hits, but a crippling ability coupled with a lack of recovery makes it a very short term countermeasure. Weezing also can do the trick, but I find it fairly easy to wear out as well. Outside of these three and a few other uncommon things like Vaporeon, there is not much defensive counterplay to Mamoswine. This is a problem for a Pokemon as common and convenient to use as Mamoswine. As for the other side of the spectrum, Ice Shard allows for it to prevent revenge killing from a lot of faster Pokemon like Noivern, Flygon, chipped Celebi, Haxorus, Roserade, and Rotom-C. It is true that there have been more Inteleon sightings recently and Cobalion/Lucario can reliably revenge kill it, but that simply is not enough to keep Mamoswine fully in check. I feel like the overall lack of counterplay to Mamoswine in the metagame is alarming and it should definitely be banned.
 

Sage

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Got my reqs using the same team as my buddy Freeroamer (grats on council!) so I'm not going to reiterate what's already been said. Voting ban for the reasons clarified by him, finch, et. all. Optimal team structure right now is supporting your own Mamoswine and preventing your opponents from doing the same (my team ran Balloon Cobalion + Golisopod and nothing that it could come in for free on.) It's somewhat similar to the alpha where everything was about using your Kommo-o and Gengar better than your opponent could (although not quite that bad.)

As for the meta overall I think it has the potential to go into a really nice place, I don't hate it even with the progress pig wreaking havoc on every archetype of team, with it banned defensive options will slowly start to reemerge as Golisopod usage goes down and Milotic / Mantine / Vapo can rise. UUPL teams were all kind of boring last week but I also find that to be similar to the SPL effect where building was definitely at its least inspired during the beginning of the tournament, and that should increase in variety and creativity as the weeks carry on. Random assorted thoughts because I didn't really have a plan with this post, Toxtricity is super good against a lot of the Incin + Vern + Coba cores running around and should be getting more usage, there are a couple underrated offensive picks right now like Ribombee / Haxorus. I suppose the latter is definitely viewed as a threat but usage isn't really reflecting that and I would encourage more people to try it as opposed to slapping Noivern on everything as reliable as it is.
 

Sabella

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Just finished laddering myself and got the reqs in one night. Although not my best record its deff a bit tiring to do all at once. The team i used was strictly screens h/o which played pretty well vs mamoswine and most of top pokemon in the meta currently. I found mantine to be pretty good coverage wise against a variety of teams and threats in uu. Unfortunately with garde being so popular it was easily revenged by trace at times which a bit of chip. I have to echo what sage and finch have been saying. My team personally didnt struggle with mamo because of its offensive nature but the majority of bulky teams cannot handle it. Mamos coverage is pretty great hitting weezing reuni and priority ice shard hitting things like roserade and noiv. Oblivious mamo is also insanely good because incin cannnot pivot into mamo and force intimidate drops. The only reliable answers i have found is umbreon somewhat because most mamos are not running superpower but that doesnt stop flinches from happening and umbreon is easy to whittle. Currently i will vote ban but i can see a return/retest in the future when the tier gets new mons in june.
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warzoid

wreck into a poll like a Raichu volt
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For those wondering why Mamoswine is being suspected now when it was allowed for the past two generations, here's a list of some of the Mamoswine checks from previous UU formats that aren't in the current format:

:alomomola: Alomomola: Amazing physical bulk combined with Regenerator makes the Mamoswine matchup much easier for stall teams.
:slowbro: Slowbro: Another Regenerator water type that works well in many balance cores.
:rotom-heat: Rotom-Heat: Outspeeds Mamoswine and resists both of its STABs.
:cresselia: Cresselia: Levitate, great bulk, and recovery makes Cress a solid Mamo counter.
:suicune: Suicune: Crocune avoids the 2HKO from Earthquake and Vincune outspeeds Mamo.
:gyarados: Gyarados: Outspeeds Mamo and only takes around half from Icicle Crash thanks to Intimidate.
:scizor: Scizor: Doesn't switch into Earthquake comfortably, but resists ice and threatens Mamoswine with Bullet Punch.
 

imjustgray

Tournament Banned
Finished laddering.
Haven't really touched the meta before doing these reqs but I can say that mamo is pretty damn unhealthy for it.
I think it's safe to say that every pokemon should have at least a few good switch ins and counters in its tier or below.
why did gamefreak make a fatass pokemon so fast..

POTENTIAL Switch-Ins AND counters for mamo:
  • Defensive Araquanid (no one runs max def): 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Araquanid: 237-281 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - subpar counter
  • Avalugg - best counter (but can still get knocked and fucked by rocks)
  • Bronzong (not too common): 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 198-234 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - really bad counter
  • Golisopod: 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Stone Edge vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 234-276 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - one predict fucks it (and knock would pop off boots, making goli trash) - subpar counter
  • Defensive Milotic: 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - bad counter
  • Defensive Umbreon: 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 134-160 (34 - 40.6%) -- 44.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (i get that it 3hkos but flinches exist man) - good but unreliable counter
  • Defensive Vaporeon: 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 230-270 (49.5 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - bad counter
  • Defensive Levitate Weezings: 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 126-149 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (flinches still exist but willo does too so I'll give it a pass) - decent check
  • Quagsire (hella uncommon): 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - subpar counter
  • Defensive Escavalier (No one runs max def): 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Escavalier: 164-192 (47.6 - 55.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - subpar counter
  • Defensive Mantine: 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 281-333 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO OR 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 179-212 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO and flinches - bad counter
  • Defensive Gastrodon (hella uncommon): 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 214-253 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - bad counter

ban if you love uu
 
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Amane Misa

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When the discussion about a Mamoswine suspect test started in the council chat the idea sounded silly to me but as the metagame developed and Mamoswine's usage rose I changed my mind.

As for now I'm voting ban for the following reasons:
  • Mamoswine has way less switch-ins than in last generations, where we had Alomomola, Rotom-H, Suicune and etc.
  • Having less switch-ins isn't a sole reason to ban a Pokemon. We already have Pokemon that are arguably harder to switch into like Gardevoir, Haxorus and Toxtricity, but unlike them, Mamoswine can punish its switch-ins very reliably. Knock Off makes Golisopod, Araquanid, and Avalugg chipped more easily and Icicle Crash has the potential to flinch Galarian Weezing down which is also pretty unhealthy on its own.
  • Unlike the aforementioned threats, revenge killing Mamoswine is a whole different story because Ice Shard hits a lot of the faster metagame for either super effective or neutral damage. Furthermore, last generation we had the ubiquitous Scizor which guaranteed checked Mamoswine most of the time and this generation we have no Pokemon that comes close Scizor's revenge killing capabilities.
Here are the teams I used if anyone is interested:

Low- to mid-ladder:

Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off

Qwilfish @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Explosion
- Taunt

Polteageist @ White Herb
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Stored Power
- Shell Smash
- Giga Drain

Haxorus @ Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw

Toxtricity @ Throat Spray
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overdrive
- Boomburst
- Shift Gear
- Taunt

Cobalion @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish

Mid-high ladder:

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- Recover
- Nasty Plot

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Knock Off

Cobalion @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch

Weezing-Galar @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Overheat
- Defog
- Pain Split

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Toxic
- Parting Shot

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- U-turn
- Outrage
 

vivalospride

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Not sure if I'm gonna find the motivation to ladder for reqs but whether I do or not I wanted to give my opinion on the pig in this thread.

The big pig is an absolute monster with very little defensive counterplay in the tier, without question, this is something that can't really be debated unless you're just absurdly lenient with what you consider "defensive counterplay". Last gen there were several stints of time throughout the meta where people bitched about mamo as an offensive threat and about the lack of defensive counterplay, it never got very far and was not even remotely comparable to this, obviously. I mention this not to compare the two metas like "mamo wasnt actually broken last gen so it must not be this gen either", bc that would be absurd to ignore the differences in the metagames.

Gen 7 had Scizor as the mon with the most usage w/o any even remote competition, meaning a large portion of teams had a reliable means of revenging the pig just bc they featured the best mon in the tier. Oven was absurdly splashable and a lot of people relied on it as role compression in a tier stacked with threats, it pretty much vetoed any non-Knock/Stone Edge mamo set being on a team. Not to mention the fact that Slowbro and Alomomola are about as good as it'll get when it comes to taking neutral eqs from the pig, regen is broken. On top of all this, things like Cobalion and other faster ice shard resists existed in the tier.

Gen 8 pretty much has none of this, we have Golisopod and kinda Bronzong, which is something, and pretty much nothing else reliably switches into the pig. Cobalion and Inteleon are two examples of "faster ice shard resists", but the list is not that much longer, the things that can take neutral eqs is an even shorter list, consisting of pretty much just Umbreon, Vaporeon, and a burned Milotic... but even a little chip makes them accomplishing this rather difficult.

This next part is not necessarily arguing for "mamo isn't broken", moreso that mons such as mamo tend to be overblown due to lack of defensive counterplay. The fact of the matter is that pokemon such as mamo are often rather easy to pressure offensively > defensively due to typing/speed tier/frail stats/etc. w1 of UUPL I was playing Odd Della Robbia for tests and he had a mamo and my team honestly had no mamo pivot of any sort, iirc he won the game but mamo died w/o getting any kills nor any real opportunities to break bc it just didn't come in on anything and therefore didn't have any opportunity to put me in a position where I was like "oh wtf do i do, something dies". As long as you have one or two things that can revenge it and you can pivot around it somewhat decently, I think you're generally fine enough vs mamo. Gen 7 rak was similar a similar case, especially during that period of time where people realized cb hits really really hard. I remember when @a sparrow started using fdry mamo on every team and the rest of the community followed, which led to everyone having a stroke that mamoswine was 1v6ing stall. My point is I think "broken" is not the right word to describe mamo, and while the defensive counterplay is lacking, I don't think it's enough to justify something as "broken", there's a reason the meta leans so heavily towards offense > fatter shit, bc we don't have much defensive counterplay for honestly anything (garde, haxorus, reuni, celebi depending on coverage, etc.), mamo is just the most jarring of the threats.

Too much for the current metagame? Yeah maybe. Sometimes even just fitting something that can reliably revenge mamo is annoying as fuck, the meta is too constricted to about 8-10 mons in a constant rotation, we're seeing uupl mirror mus because it's so difficult to stray from the standard noiv bos, whether this will change or not with mamo gone, idrk, but mamo is definitely something that's heavily contributing to just how depressing and boring building for this meta is. I'm definitely leaning slightly towards ban, and that's mostly because of how claustrophobic the meta feels and how easily a late game mamo can clean in most matchups (espec vs zong/incin/goli type shit... which is most of the meta) if not played around well.

#BringStallBackForPif2020
 

Euphonos

Press E♯ to pay respects.
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I have actually partaken in this Mamoswine suspect, but through my team's unsuccessful ladder run, I don't think I can make it to vote. Anyway, before I do make my opinion about Mamoswine, allow me to showcase my team for this endeavor.


While not as successful as it looks, the team's concept for an offensive team is intact with the presence of Indeedee with Psychic Surge paired with Polteageist -- while not exactly as common as an offensive core, a few people have exploited it to the fullest. This bulky offense team is meant to punish switch-ins through damaging hazards (Stealth Rock from Mamoswine and Spikes from Qwilfish) before proceeding a sweep mainly from Polteageist (with Cobalion as a back-up) while Psychic Terrain is up to avoid priority moves from preventing Polteageist to complete its task.

The main reason why Mamoswine has gotten better in the tier as Pokemon Home got released is because Knock Off became more widely available, thus turning Bronzong from one of Mamoswine's premier counters to one of Mamoswine's greatest targets. While Knock Off may seem one of the greatest moves in the competitive realm of Pokemon up to this day, Mamoswine is actually one of the Pokemon to be blessed with such a move to render select Pokemon like Bronzong obsolete -- not to mention Araquanid, Golisopod, and Avalugg being prone to hazards once Mamoswine has done its job of knocking off their most cherished item (Heavy-Duty Boots). This is why from my team's standpoint, I run Knock Off on Mamoswine instead of another form of reliable STAB in Icicle Crash because its effect is too good to pass up and Icicle Crash has a potential to miss which would be extremely costly later in the match.

While Mamoswine can keep some of the future suspects in check, the game-changing effects of Knock Off makes this Pokemon way too good for the tier and, if circumstance permit me, vote ban for Mamoswine. Right now, I'll just press E♯ to pay respects for its upcoming deserved exit.
 
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#Stallisback

I achevied laddering. The team I used was a full stall with Avalugg to check Mamoswine. UU players are too confident and unprepared to break defensive teams. My thoughts about Mamoswine are:

Big Pig is too much in UU not because Ice/Ground is near to be the best coverage in the game, a ridiculus stat in attack or a priority like Ice Shard. Knock Off is a lot in Mamoswine's suscpect and previous bans. Obstagoon, Crawdaunt and Weavile are gone because no Pokémon can switchs on a reliable strong STABed Knock Off in SSUU. Mamoswine is in the same bascket without dark-typing bonus. All Mamoswine's "checks" or "counters" (?) are too weakened by Knock Off to be safe answers in mid- and late game.​
  1. Without boots, SR deals too much damages against Avalugg, Golisoped or Araquanid
  2. Without leftovers, Weezing and Umbreon are breaked by few prior damages or an icicle crash's flinch.
  3. Knock Off pushs Bronzong in the void
Today, council and the community don't want suspect Knock Off. In theses conditions I have to vote ban
 
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Juuno

world.execute(me);
is a Pre-Contributor
Usage stats for April are now up! Here are the changes that impact us:

Darmanitan moved from OU to UU
Rotom-Wash moved from OU to UU
Sylveon moved from OU to UU
Torkoal moved from OU to UU

:darmanitan: I was really hoping this thing didn't drop because it sounds like it'll have a rather unhealthy presence but OU had other plans. I could see this mon definitely being an issue for all the teams running something like Golisopod or Inteleon as their Water of choice. Rhyperior is also 2HKOed by Earthquake with some chip - alternatively, you can U-Turn it, or Trick it your Choice item. Freeroamer brought up Heavy-Duty Boots Darmanitan + Thunder Wave Cobalion, which I can see being problematic since one of Choice Band's biggest checks will likely be Noivern, which Thunder Wave neutralizes. On paper this seems like it just forces one of a Water-type and/or Rhyperior / Gigalith on a lot of teams. We'll see how it turns out.

:rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash will definitely be an interesting addition, though Mamoswine will hopefully be gone soon it will probably be able to serve as a good check. It also returns our trend of Electrics that fuck over literally all of our Ground-Types. A core I can see working is a VoltTurn core of Rotom-Wash + Noivern or Incineroar. While Noivern basically brings in Rotom-Wash against all of our Ground- and Rock-types, and Rotom-Wash brings in Noivern against Grass-Types, Incineroar can deal more damage with the combination of Knock Off + Toxic + U-Turn, not to mention being brought in via Volt Switch.

:sylveon: Sylveon will be a blessed addition for sure, checking Haxorus, Noivern, and several other offensive threats. More clerics are always welcome and it pairs excellently with Bronzong and Doublade. Speaking of Noivern, the Fairy + Dragon + Water + Steel cores that infested last generation will likely make a resurgence. Sylveon + Noivern / Haxorus / Flygon + Milotic + Bronzong sounds like quite the hassle to beat. Again, we are desperately lacking in actually decent Haxorus switch ins, and Sylveon at least makes it think about running Poison Jab.

:torkoal: I don't really have much to say here. I guess it's a better sun setter than Ninetales? Maybe? This probably won't have much of an effect on the tier, I don't see sun teams rising in popularity either. If this seems short and rushed, it's because it is, there's just not really much to say here.

also Obstagoon is UUBL now yeah that's cool.
 
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Usage stats for April are now up! Here are the changes that impact us:

Darmanitan moved from OU to UU
Rotom-Wash moved from OU to UU
Sylveon moved from OU to UU
Torkoal moved from OU to UU

:darmanitan: I was really hoping this thing didn't drop because it sounds like it'll have a rather unhealthy presence but OU had other plans. I could see this mon definitely being an issue for all the teams running something like Golisopod or Inteleon as their Water of choice. Rhyperior is also 2HKOed by Earthquake with some chip - alternatively, you can U-Turn it, or Trick it your Choice item. Freeroamer brought up Heavy-Duty Boots Darmanitan + Thunder Wave Cobalion, which I can see being problematic since one of Choice Band's biggest checks will likely be Noivern, which Thunder Wave neutralizes. On paper this seems like it just forces one of a Water-type and/or Rhyperior / Gigalith on a lot of teams. We'll see how it turns out.

:rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash will definitely be an interesting addition, though Mamoswine will hopefully be gone soon it will probably be able to serve as a good check. It also returns our trend of Electrics that fuck over literally all of our Ground-Types. A core I can see working is a VoltTurn core of Rotom-Wash + Noivern or Incineroar. While Noivern basically brings in Rotom-Wash against all of our Ground- and Rock-types, and Rotom-Wash brings in Noivern against Grass-Types, Incineroar can deal more damage with the combination of Knock Off + Toxic + U-Turn, not to mention being brought in via Volt Switch.

:sylveon: Sylveon will be a blessed addition for sure, checking Haxorus, Noivern, and several other offensive threats. More clerics are always welcome and it pairs excellently with Bronzong and Doublade. Speaking of Noivern, the Fairy + Dragon + Water + Steel cores that infested last generation will likely make a resurgence. Sylveon + Noivern / Haxorus / Flygon + Milotic + Bronzong sounds like quite the hassle to beat. Again, we are desperately lacking in actually decent Haxorus switch ins, and Sylveon at least makes it think about running Poison Jab.

:torkoal: I don't really have much to say here. I guess it's a better sun setter than Ninetales? Maybe? This probably won't have much of an effect on the tier, I don't see sun teams rising in popularity either. If this seems short and rushed, it's because it is, there's just not really much to say here.

also Obstagoon is UUBL now yeah that's cool.
The Weather Ball man
 
We have entered what shall be known as the Wash-Era. Regardless of what the future holds, I'm putting Rotom-Wash and Gastrodon on every team possible. The removal of hidden powers, the defog being given to Rotoms, watch as Gastrodon rises from RU (hopefully not, it's a great Pokemon to use in RU), and Rotom Wash rises to the top of the viability ranking. Also sun might get silly due to Venusaur+Darmanitan. It will be interesting to see how the tier develops.
 
I've been doing research into countering some of the harder to counter pokemon in this tier. Toxtricitee is the easiest among those, Steel/Ground, Steel/Electric, Ground/Ghost, Steel/Dragon, Rock/Ground, Rock/Dragon, Rock/Ghost Rock/Electric, Ghost/Electric and Ghost/Dragon all counter this pokemon(The hidden power removal is such as blessing for defensive counterplay. For examples, which we will draw from any tier we have access to, we have Steelix and Stunfisk G, and while Stunfisk G is a lot more solid in one aspect due to its much higher special bulk than steelix its terrain dependent ability can be a problem which makes it more inconsistent. Togedemaru has been mentioned already, its poor bulk means it'll only last slightly longer than Steelix however. Duralodon, speaking of poor bulk has terrible special bulk, only max specially defensive assault vest counts as a true counter (Don't know how good that set is). Runerigus is perhaps the best counter, needing no specially defensive investment to deal with Toxtricitee while its typing is useful against other threats, such as Cobalion. As for rock/electric that typing currently isn't in the game, we'd have to have Golem Alola return. Same goes for Rock/Poison, Rock/Dragon and Rock Ghost. We have rotom as our ghost eletric type, but it has very poor bulk and you miss out on using other Rotoms which is most of the time unacceptable. We do have a usable dragon/ghost type, believe it or not, in Drakloak, its speed is high but its offenses are poor. It's an NFE pokemon meaning you should use eviolite to give it the defenses it needs. As you can see, we have plenty of counters wonky or not for Toxtricitee.

Haxorus lol no. What did you think? Sylveon can't do a thing agaisnt CB or SD poison jab. In fact max/max defense Sylveon dies to CB earthquake on the switch.
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah no.

As for Gardevoir, we do have counters however janky they may be. Heatproof Bronzong walls non shadow ball variants, just depends on whether or not you're willing or not give up on Levitate. Specially defensive Assault Vest Regenerator Reuniclus walls all sets, just matters how viable this set is, I don't know, could be slept on. Max special defense eviolite Dusklops walls Gardevoir, but really hates chip damage especially against specs Shadow ball variants, and has poor recovery if you don't use resttalk. Max special defense eviolite Type;Null walls all variants except specs focus blast which will 2hko it. Specially defensive Collossal is decent except it gets blown apart by focus blast. Max/Max specially defensive Necrozma is a shaky counter, assault vest variants are more solid and work similar to Reuniclus except it's faster and lack regenerator. Max/Max Musharna is decent but struggles against specs shadow ball. Finally, a very interesting counter which is probably one of the more viable ones is specially defensive Celebi with enough speed to outrun timid Gardevoir. Running calm mind or light screen can mkae countering Gardevoir easier. Keep in mind that trick from Gardevoir cripples everything on this list barring Reuniclus, who has regenerator and a four attacks set letting it continue to wreak havoc and check Gardevoir.

Many of the Pokemon on these lists aren't very viable but I just wanted to provide every option possible for people to build with. Perhaps an eviolite Dusklops may fit well on nonexistent stall teams, or a rotom could serve as an offensive check to both Toxtricitee and Cobalion.
 
Haxorus lol no. What did you think? Sylveon can't do a thing agaisnt CB or SD poison jab. In fact max/max defense Sylveon dies to CB earthquake on the switch.
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah no.
i believe Juuno said sylveon checking haxorus and not countering.
so that calc doesn't make sense when sylveon usually isn't trying to hard switch into haxorus anyways
 
i believe Juuno said sylveon checking haxorus and not countering.
so that calc doesn't make sense when sylveon usually isn't trying to hard switch into haxorus anyways
If by checking you mean stopping a Haxorus from sweeping, Flygon and other 100+ speed scarf pokemon can revenge kill it and stop haxorus. Or priority from Golisopod. If you're not going to switch into Sylveon, who will you switch into? Perhaps it is to deter Haxorus from clicking outrage, although Cobalion, Doublade and Escavalier can perform a similar purpose. Levitate shenanigans with Bronzong, the rotoms or weezing won't work for obvious reasons, meaning you'd have to switch into a grass, flying, or bug type if you want to predict an earthquake, but poison jab hurts most of them pretty badly. This guessing as a means of counterplay only works with band, as DD can boost on the switch, and SD gives you 0 chance of doing anything unless you once again are an oracle and guess the Haxorus' set. Sylveon not outspeeding Haxorus means you may as well use Ribombee, Rapidash-G or Whimsiscott, although they will be outsped by DD. My confusion over this I'm trying to explain is, what is the purpose of Sylveon then against Haxorus? I find it silly how none of the UU sets on the teambuilder run poison jab or iron tail. The only way to "defensively" take on Haxorus is have everything on your team either outspeed it or be able to take a hit from it, and Sylveon could have a use on teams as such, teams which I don't notice people making, most people have at least one pokemon Haxorus has an opportunity to set-up on. When you say "hard-switch", you simply means switch in, right? Since regardless of what you do switching in is switching in. It always will be a guess regardless of how you do it unless they're already choice locked. Haxorus is definitely possible to check offensively and there are many ways to do so. I don't know yet if Haxorus is broken, since it has that offensive counterplay, but it really hurts the plausibility of defensive teams. Although we had Haxorus in previous gens we did have Forretress in gen 6 and Scizor in gen 7 as ways to defensively block Haxorus. As well as shuca berry Klefki. Granbull wasn't a UU pokemon but if you ever became desperate for a fairy that could actually counter Haxorus (except CB iron tail but you could run berries for that) Granbull got the job done. In all the previous gens we had Haxorus we had more defensive counterplay, this is the least amount of defensive counterplay we've ever had against Haxorus.
 
Ok so with the drops happening, and the end of the suspect test happening there's one thing I feel is really important to point out.

:ss/rotom-wash:

Rotom-Wash. A new drop we just got which seems like the best mamo counter we have now. Because of this, should mamo be able to stay? In my personal opinion, that answer is no for many reasons. First of all, all of the reasons why Mamoswine was considered too much still applies here. Very few defensive switchins, needing to be checked by offensive threads most of the time, ice shard killing most faster mons in the meta. Now we have Rotom-Wash, supposedly a good check as it resists its ice stab, is immune to earthquake, and can outspeed and kill or cripple it very easily. This sounds like a great choice, and makes mamo a lot less worth banning. Still, wrong. Mamo still has access to knock off, that can heavily cripple any rotom-wash as it may be switching in because leftovers [unless its running rest] is its only form of recovery. Along with that Mamoswine has the option of running freeze dry, which makes previous water types that would resist ice into a super effective move.
0 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 140-166 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah Rotom-Wash is a switchin here if it runs this.

Overall, Rotom-Wash is one switch-in to the ever prevalent ice pig, and if we end up keeping it because of this one switch in, this one switch in will be on every single team. Keeping Mamo just because of Rotom-Wash will leave the meta in a much worse place than otherwise. I felt the need to come in and say this as the suspect test is a really important ban here. Typically, you want a tier to be diverse in its team types, the metagame you play is a lot of whats worth being part of a tier. Rotom-Wash being the reason to keep Mamo will get rid of the diversity we want. Every team will end up being the same, and it's because you need the same things, to check the same pokemon, to end up with the same team in most games. I may not have reqs [nor am i going to get them anymore cuz of april drops.] I think Its going to still be too unhealthy, because one switch-in to a single pokemon isnt enough. If Mamoswine is kept, the tiers diversity is going to go down the drain. For the love of UU please ban the ice pig. It needs to go.
 
while i think later down the line mamoswine will probably be tested back into the tier, in the current state of uu metagame; mamoswine is pretty much unstoppable and should be banned for the time being. As stated by others, there are very few checks to mamoswine in the uu tier at the moment.
This includes golisopod, weezing-g, araquanid, and few more. all of the checks people have listed to mamoswine are shaky and inconsistent. araquanid and golisopod fall to stone edge from mamo if it opts to use that coverage. The newly dropped rotom-wash is 3hkoed by icicle crash after rocks if its running 0 physical bulk and max hp. The other mamoswine checks all cannot switch in safely so often you would have to sack a pokemon to revenge kill it. what I am trying to say is that because mamoswine is a centralizing threat to the majority of uu and restricts teambuilding forcing people to fit mamoswine checks on their or otherwise they are at significant disadvantage that it should be banned for the time being and maybe retested in the future.
 

Twilight

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Darmanitan @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- U-turn

Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Rock Slide / Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- U-turn

Darmanitan @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Bulk Up

Superpower is an option on these sets but I haven't found it hits anything EQ + Blitz doesn't aside from hitting Umbreon without wearing itself down with Blitz recoil. It can also hit Gigalith harder but locking into Superpower isn't too great.

Darmanitan is a really interesting Pokemon because it is so consistent at dropping something with Flare Blitz but not to the point that I think it is outright broken. I do think the whole Darmanitan under Sun thing is extremely excessive with it being reliable enough to do its job without it. Darmanitan hasn't been the easiest thing to just slap onto a team because in most cases I find it wants to compete with Incineroar for the slot. Both being Fire-types that can pivot. While Incineroar isn't a breaker unless using SD, but dropping it in a tier where we have very few Ghost resists that can compress so much utility isn't easy to do. So when you are trying so hard to force Sun + Darm I have found it creates far more issues than clicking Blitz in Sun benefits a team.

Overall, I don't think Darmanitan adds much to the tier besides it being another strong wallbreaker with the ability to run multiple items. In most cases, my opponents and I have basically only click Flare Blitz or U-turn, the latter being a big advantage it has over most of our breakers. It's still too early for me to tell how much impact Darmanitan will have but the ability to 2HKO most of the tier including resists is kinda annoying, but the upside is it usually ends up removing itself in the process with Blitz recoil + hazards.


Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Defog / Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Discharge
- Hex / Hydro Pump / Dark Pulse
- Substitute

I think Rotom-W is probably the best thing to happen to the tier so far. Maybe it is just me but building has felt so much easier and diverse with some of the role compression it can fulfill. It's another Electric-type that can beat all of our Ground-types but thanks to its typing it can actually pivot into most Water-types without much fear unlike Rotom-C. This on top of it providing that Ground immunity and potentially Defog support is so huge. I've also been experimenting with NP + Sub sets with a good amount of success allowing it to avoid status from foes. I've tried Choice Specs and while it can cripple most of its checks, a lot of them are specially offensive Grass-types that don't fear its coverage or Wisp. I think the tier has more than enough things to combat Washtom, it just means bulky Water-types get a little worse and Grass-types have a lot more value. I think Gastrodon is also a Pokemon worth exploring more with it walling Rotom and being a soft check to foes like Cobalion and Incineroar etc.


Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Mystical Fire / Heal Bell

Sylveon is a great addition to have back and enables a lot of builds looking for that bulky Fairy-type that can support its team and check Noivern. It pretty much does what it did during UU Alpha and has the additional bulk to take on Haxorus better compared to Aroma. Mystical Fire has been quite common on a lot of sets to not give up momentum vs every Steel-type. I think Sylveon has a fair amount worth exploring but not much else to say on this Pokemon.


Torkoal @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Lava Plume
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Explosion

Lastly, I don't think Torkoal is that significant for the tier. It does enable full Sun teams with it being a more reliable Heat Rock setter than Ninetales and it also being able to provide SR or Spin support. However, I still think full Sun is in a pretty awkward spot where I'd rather just run semi Sun with Ninetales + Venu. Overall, the Pokemon is a cool addition to have back as it will enable more exploration with Sun but as it stands I don't think it is anything too huge other than being good role compression for these teams.

With regards to Mamoswine I have come around to the conclusion that it needs to go, even with Rotom-W dropping. Mamoswine still constrains building too much even with one additional Mon to the point it is clear builds will continue to be extremely formulaic until it leaves the tier. Even in matches where my opponent and myself agree to not use Mamoswine I've seen a significant improvement in my builds being freed up a lot more. So with that, I'll def be voting ban on Sunday/Monday.
 
We have entered what shall be known as the Wash-Era. Regardless of what the future holds, I'm putting Rotom-Wash and Gastrodon on every team possible. The removal of hidden powers, the defog being given to Rotoms, watch as Gastrodon rises from RU (hopefully not, it's a great Pokemon to use in RU), and Rotom Wash rises to the top of the viability ranking. Also sun might get silly due to Venusaur+Darmanitan. It will be interesting to see how the tier develops.
I would tread carefully before using two Pokemon of the same type-group on your team. This has proven time and time again in Competitive Pokemon history to be a bad strategy in the history of Smogon tournaments and competition. A noob trap, for want of a better term... It is simply not worth the risk at all, pertaining to the potential rewards such a fallacy could bring. I appreciate your enthusiasm and creativity though.
 

Wigglytuff

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Jumping in late but I finally got reqs, shoutouts Lilburr for the team

I'm really really torn on this suspect. On the one hand, the team I was using had 2 and a half checks/hard checks to Mamoswine and still had trouble dealing with it. On the other, I hate this balance vs balance gameplay and the progress pig does a great job of speeding it up.

The new additions to the tier haven't done much in the way of counterplay (Pain Split Rotom-Wash actually might be a nice countermeasure but obviously that's only one and doesn't constitute counterplay) so I'll probably end up voting ban.
 
I would tread carefully before using two Pokemon of the same type-group on your team. This has proven time and time again in Competitive Pokemon history to be a bad strategy in the history of Smogon tournaments and competition. A noob trap, for want of a better term... It is simply not worth the risk at all, pertaining to the potential rewards such a fallacy could bring. I appreciate your enthusiasm and creativity though.
That may hold true with certain types but it’s not the case with water types when one has the water ground typing since that eliminates electric types as a threat to your team. This has been a staple of balance teams for a long time in UU, Empoleon+Swampert for example, as swampert can deal with electric types, fire types and physical wall breakers, while Empoleon was amazing against Special attackers such as Primarina. Tentacruel+Swampert also was another combination but not as common. It goes offensively as well, you can have a defensive Pokemon such as Swampert or Gastrodon and an offensive water type such as Crawdaunt or Primarina. There were even countless offensive cores dedicated to “Water Spam” or “Fighting spam” etc to overwhelm the opponents’ counters.The main key for this being successful when having two waters was having enough other Pokemon in your team to handle the grass types, and we had plenty of options to choose from such as Latias, Scizor, Amoonguss, Hydreigon, Rotom-Heat and many more. I can sense the condescension and arrogance bleeding through your post, you jump over all the extra details in order to try and score a quick point. It’s not like I put Milotic and Vaporeo together, it actually occurs fairly often that two Pokémon share a type on a team, the important details are how the secondary typing(s) synergize. For example, Gliscor+Swampert was used over and over again in gen 7 UU before Gliscor rose. There could be two fairies on the same team as well, such as Sylveon and Primarina. I can pull up example after example but basically your point isn’t correct, it’s only true in certain circumstances but not every one. You jumped at the chance to be smug. Now, no hard feelings, but I simply point out what I see.
 
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