Good point, perhaps a drought+heat rock ban could work? I personally support banning Drought altogether, but I think it's crazy that Ninetales, a pokemon that isnt even UU, people are trying to b a n.
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★ np: SS UU Stage 3: As the World Falls Down (Venusaur banned, see post 110)
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Heat Rock is an interesting discussion point because if banning it were to nerf Sun heavily enough, it seems like the ban that would remove the least from the tier. However it’s pretty much impossible to say that Heat Rock is the broken element when there’s no evidence that manual sun setters using Heat Rock are also issues for the tier, unlike PU for example which is how they justified banning Heat Rock as well as Drought. iLiekMudkipz_ I’m not sure if you meant banning both Heat Rock and pokemon with Drought, or complex banning Pokemon with Drought from holding Heat Rock. The former seems like overkill and hopefully I’ve just explained why banning Heat Rock isn’t really on the table, while for the latter we aim to avoid complex bans wherever we can and this especially seems an unnecessary one compared to just suggesting we ban Heat Rock as all it does is preserve Heat Rock for manual sun setters.
I don’t really have a lot outside of that to add on sun that hasn’t been said already, I think it’s obvious to anyone who plays this tier that it needs to be nerfed but the PR thread will likely determine how that happens. Other than sun I’m pretty convinced now that Haxorus is also a problem within this tier, being capable of huge work in pretty much any game it’s involved in thanks to our lack of consistent defensive answers as well as viable options to revenge kill it when boosted. Being the premier threat of the screens teams that have featured fairly regularly over the last couple of weeks in UUPL is the cherry on the cake, with screens making a mockery of answers like Escavalier and usually guaranteeing it a couple of kills at least.
I can see why there’s hate for Necrozma too, even more than Hax for some, but for me Haxorus is the bigger issue just because of how much work it can do even unboosted thanks to it’s greater initial power and speed tier whereas I just don’t feel the same threat from Necrozma until it’s boosted. It for sure sets up easier and while it’s much easier to outspeed and hit at +1, it can be significantly harder to find the damage you need to stop it before it sweeps you so it’s place as a top threat is definitely justified, it’s just a little below Hax for me rn. I’ve also not seen much other than DD out of it’s setup arsenal do consistent work yet, if it’s other options begin to emerge as more credible then that would be hella scary and could put it on top.
I don’t really have a lot outside of that to add on sun that hasn’t been said already, I think it’s obvious to anyone who plays this tier that it needs to be nerfed but the PR thread will likely determine how that happens. Other than sun I’m pretty convinced now that Haxorus is also a problem within this tier, being capable of huge work in pretty much any game it’s involved in thanks to our lack of consistent defensive answers as well as viable options to revenge kill it when boosted. Being the premier threat of the screens teams that have featured fairly regularly over the last couple of weeks in UUPL is the cherry on the cake, with screens making a mockery of answers like Escavalier and usually guaranteeing it a couple of kills at least.
I can see why there’s hate for Necrozma too, even more than Hax for some, but for me Haxorus is the bigger issue just because of how much work it can do even unboosted thanks to it’s greater initial power and speed tier whereas I just don’t feel the same threat from Necrozma until it’s boosted. It for sure sets up easier and while it’s much easier to outspeed and hit at +1, it can be significantly harder to find the damage you need to stop it before it sweeps you so it’s place as a top threat is definitely justified, it’s just a little below Hax for me rn. I’ve also not seen much other than DD out of it’s setup arsenal do consistent work yet, if it’s other options begin to emerge as more credible then that would be hella scary and could put it on top.
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As an update, with the Drought policy discussion still not at a resolution, the council has decided that as a stopgap measure, we will vote on Venusaur this weekend. While the council still feels that a mere Venusaur ban may prove insufficient to fully address all of the issues with Sun in UU, we believe that it will present a significant nerf to Sun teams by removing their most effective sweeper and should at least alleviate the issue. We still plan to pursue a Drought ban in some form, but have decided that this ban will have the least potential negative impact and will allow us to move forward for the time being without sidestepping the policy issues that banning an ability presents.
There are some other things that remain on the radar in addition to the Venusaur vote, including:
While the council largely believes that on its own Darmanitan is not an overwhelming presence in UU, it is still a significant threat, especially when combined with Sun. Without Sun, Darmanitan is reliant on a Choice Band to have serious breaking power, and while that power is considerable, its weakness to rocks combined with the recoil damage it quickly accumulates gives most teams reasonable counterplay to the CB set, even if it is one of our scarier breakers. However, add Sun into the mix and suddenly it has the wallbreaking power of CB combined with the Speed of Scarf or the longevity of Heavy Duty Boots. Whether we pursue a Darmanitan suspect next will most likely hinge on how viable Sun is following the Venusaur vote.
If Sun were not the issue it currently is, Haxorus would likely be the first thing on our radar for a suspect. Its Choice Band set makes it one of the scariest wallbreakers in the tier, while Dragon Dance sets have been seeing a revival in the wake of the Mamoswine ban. Sylveon's addition has alleviated the issues somewhat, but even a max/max Sylveon takes 89% minimum from a +1 LO Poison Jab, and while it is a decent check to CB sets, the fact that it takes over 40% from CB Earthquake means it is often forced to immediately recover and yield momentum to the Haxorus player's team.
Necrozma was something of a hidden threat for some time. Immediately after it dropped, DD sets were common, but they faded quickly. However, Necrozma has seen something of a resurgence, playing off of its deep movepool and great bulk and mixed attacking stats to turn into one of the most difficult threats to counter. Sets such as offensive DD, bulky DD Moonlight and Automotize with Weakness Policy have completely different checks and counters, and guessing wrong can give Necrozma the opening it needs to sweep a team.
This one is a bit less sure, and certainly not as much of a priority as the other three, but still worth discussing. When Sylveon first dropped, many on the council felt that it would end up outclassing Gardevoir as a Specs breaker. And certainly Specs Sylveon has proven to be quite a threat, one that should not be underestimated. However, it has not diminished the raw power of Gardevoir, which hits almost as hard as Sylveon but is backed by both increased Speed and a much deeper movepool, including STAB Psyshock for special walls or Poison-types, a stronger Mystical Fire for Steel-types and fantastic utility options in Healing Wish (which was significantly buffed this generation) and Trick. Whether all of this adds up to being something worth testing is still up in the air, but it's something to keep an eye on after the other issues are addressed.
We're all discussing the best way to deal with these, as running a suspect test during UULT presents some major difficulties. We may delay these tests until after UULT as a result, though it's still an ongoing discussion. However, you should expect a vote on Venusaur by tomorrow evening.
There are some other things that remain on the radar in addition to the Venusaur vote, including:
While the council largely believes that on its own Darmanitan is not an overwhelming presence in UU, it is still a significant threat, especially when combined with Sun. Without Sun, Darmanitan is reliant on a Choice Band to have serious breaking power, and while that power is considerable, its weakness to rocks combined with the recoil damage it quickly accumulates gives most teams reasonable counterplay to the CB set, even if it is one of our scarier breakers. However, add Sun into the mix and suddenly it has the wallbreaking power of CB combined with the Speed of Scarf or the longevity of Heavy Duty Boots. Whether we pursue a Darmanitan suspect next will most likely hinge on how viable Sun is following the Venusaur vote. If Sun were not the issue it currently is, Haxorus would likely be the first thing on our radar for a suspect. Its Choice Band set makes it one of the scariest wallbreakers in the tier, while Dragon Dance sets have been seeing a revival in the wake of the Mamoswine ban. Sylveon's addition has alleviated the issues somewhat, but even a max/max Sylveon takes 89% minimum from a +1 LO Poison Jab, and while it is a decent check to CB sets, the fact that it takes over 40% from CB Earthquake means it is often forced to immediately recover and yield momentum to the Haxorus player's team. Necrozma was something of a hidden threat for some time. Immediately after it dropped, DD sets were common, but they faded quickly. However, Necrozma has seen something of a resurgence, playing off of its deep movepool and great bulk and mixed attacking stats to turn into one of the most difficult threats to counter. Sets such as offensive DD, bulky DD Moonlight and Automotize with Weakness Policy have completely different checks and counters, and guessing wrong can give Necrozma the opening it needs to sweep a team. This one is a bit less sure, and certainly not as much of a priority as the other three, but still worth discussing. When Sylveon first dropped, many on the council felt that it would end up outclassing Gardevoir as a Specs breaker. And certainly Specs Sylveon has proven to be quite a threat, one that should not be underestimated. However, it has not diminished the raw power of Gardevoir, which hits almost as hard as Sylveon but is backed by both increased Speed and a much deeper movepool, including STAB Psyshock for special walls or Poison-types, a stronger Mystical Fire for Steel-types and fantastic utility options in Healing Wish (which was significantly buffed this generation) and Trick. Whether all of this adds up to being something worth testing is still up in the air, but it's something to keep an eye on after the other issues are addressed.We're all discussing the best way to deal with these, as running a suspect test during UULT presents some major difficulties. We may delay these tests until after UULT as a result, though it's still an ongoing discussion. However, you should expect a vote on Venusaur by tomorrow evening.
The council made their decision but personally I believe Darmanitan>Venusaur under sun. Darmanitan hits much harder without needing any boosts, and the band has 0 counters whereas the scarf outspeed everything and hits very hard. Venusaur has checks and counters even at +2, I've already listed many of them despite as strange and non-viable some of them get they do exist as a choice if you're frustrated with Venusaur, but with Darmanitan you simply pick which Pokemon to sack under sun. Gigalith even walls Solar-Beam Venusaur forcing it to carry giga drain, which causes Venusaur to struggle more against pokemon like Chandelure, Polteageist, and Umbreon, as well as giving it a harder time breaking through specially defensive tanks in general. While I still dislike Venusaur I don't believe it's anywhere near the level of Darmanitan under sun. The main reason why in the last gen Darmanitan under sun wasn't as scary was due to Alomomola and Slowbro who could work as decent switchins.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
PLEASE think about this deeply @ all council members. Do we really need a stop gap? I know it feels urgent now with multiple tournaments going on but does one week of a ladder tour and a UUPL mean that much for a tier in the long run that we need to make a bad decision? Yes I'm calling this a bad decision simply because you already called it a stop gap. You're acknowledging this isn't ideal: we should either respect PR's authority and wait for a resolution or believe that you know what's best for the tier and go ahead and hold action on Drought. There's no reason to hold a vote on something NOW if you said you're already planning to hold a very similar suspect in the future to address the same problem. Just be patient, it's not the end of gen7uu when we ran out of time to "complete tiering" (hold a Scizor test).
UU has been in a very interesting place this month ever since Darm and Torkoal dropped, and I won't lie, this whole discussion on the problem of Sun in UU has been incredibly polarized. I've noticed a lot of people cite abusers as the issue, and others saying that setters are the issue. It's indisputable that there is a problem with sun itself, though, and I don't think anybody is here to debate that.
It's hard to pinpoint the exact issue, because Sun in its own right wasn't broken until Darm dropped, but the abusers don't work to nearly the same effectiveness without it. Something I learned is that metagame trends are usually what define what we consider broken in a tier. The metagame is ripe for Venusaur/Darm's picking, with many top threats being utterly dismantled by their STABs and offensive options as a whole, but the thing is that this wasn't exactly a problem until Darm and Torkoal actually dropped. It's extremely easy to slap on a Torkoal, Venusaur, Darmanitan, maybe Ninetales, and two filler Pokemon, because the sheer strength that comes from having that base core is really all you need. It's extremely powerful, and despite how cookie cutter it is, whether you can predict it or not, it's going to be a massacre regardless. I believe the best way to describe this issue is that sun has way too many effective, overwhelming options, be them nuclear or utilitarian.
So, to parse the problem, I believe the best way to look at it is to consider what exactly creates the strength of these options. The obvious answer right out the gate is Sun, but the thing is that the weather on its own is not a problem, as proven by metagame trends prior to Darmanitan's drop. The playstyle by its base is not an issue, and outright banning it, I feel, is a step that's a bit too far. Instead, I want to look at the combination of options themselves in Sun.
Venusaur + Chlorophyll Abusers
Venusaur, out of all of them, is by far the best Chlorophyll abuser. Incredible dual STABs, Growth as a boosting move, and new, extremely powerful tools in Weather Ball + Earth Power give Venusaur arguably the best, most effective coverage in the entirety of the tier (and maybe even the generation). I feel Venusaur has a similar issue to Gyarados where you have to rely on mindgames in order to survive its onslaught before Sun expires, which, given how its coverage is insanely strong, is a very problematic "check" of sorts, as prediction being the best way you beat something is never a good sign of a healthy Pokemon. For the most part, I actually completely understand the decision to suspect Venusaur first as opposed to suspecting Sun itself or Darm.
However, I rarely see people discuss the effectiveness of Chlorophyll abusers in general, and in here lies the problem of hunting down Venusaur specifically. Things like Vileplume and Shiftry, while less effective in a vaccuum, still yield incredibly powerful offensive options that, in some cases, can be even more effective than Venusaur. Vileplume has access to Moonblast--which is a great option against Noivern--as well as the same dual STABs as Venusaur, and Shiftry has access to Dark STAB and is a great check against Doublade, which can usually Shadow Sneak a weakened Venusaur. While these two examples aren't as immediately dangerous as Venusaur, I want to highlight the exact reason why this would still be a problem.
Darmanitan.
Darmanitan
I don't need to show you the absolutely asinine calcs that this behemoth rocks for you to know that Darmanitan is an absolute powerhouse in Sun. However, what I don't see people often talking about are its other moveslots. While Flare Blitz in Sun with Sheer Force and base 140 Attack is not even remotely a switch-in, the fact that this thing has Trick, U-Turn, Earthquake, and Rock Slide as options as well is an absolutely horrifying prospect. It has a similar issue to Venusaur and co. regarding its switch-ins, however, I believe that even in Sun, its options can be punished, especially with the newly dropped Rotom-Wash and the rise of defensive behemoths such as Rhyperior.
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The reason I bring these two in accounting for is because of something that I seldom see talked about: their incredible synergy. There's a reason the cookie cutter sun core has become so powerful in the tier, and it's because it's legitimately an amazing offensive core. The options these two components of sun have to support each other is absolutely mind breaking, and I believe this is the problem of sun.
Darmanitan pries apart any potential Chlorophyll check, and vice versa with Darmanitan. These two together lack switchins and cover one another's back in the process, which is why they work so incredibly well together even if you can expect to see it. Suspecting Venusaur is definitely a good step, but, that doesn't change the amazing synergy Chlorophyll abusers and Darm have in the tier. Once Venusaur is banned, new Chlorophyll users will rise to take its place, which, in combination with Darmanitan, would yield the same exact problem, even with Venusaur being gone.
Ideally, we want as little bans as possible and for the metagame to have as many options as we can give it. So, I have two potential ideas if Sun proves to be too strong even without Venusaur.
1: We suspect Chlorophyll + Drought
This is taking some inspiration from Gen 5's Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, but I believe given my observations, if we wanted to stop the reign of Venusaur specifically, I think the approach would be to suspect this particular combo. Though, given Venusaur's upcoming suspect, this very well could be the only thing we need to do. We can't entirely ensure that this combo is the problem or if it's just Venusaur itself, so I think the council's voting on a Venusaur suspect is a good move to minimize potential bans.
2: We suspect Darmanitan
This one I'm less as sure about, because Darmanitan faces many more immediate issues unlike Venusaur/Chlorophyll. This mainly comes in the form of recoil damage, a hazard weakness, and a priority weakness. It can wear down very easily even with its groundbreaking power, and pretty much necessitates a choice item to retain consistent effectiveness as a breaker. I've seen the stray HDB, but this set is picked apart easily by Pokemon that are faster than it--which aren't far and none--due to the loss of speed. Without Darm, Chlorophyll retains its gargantuan strength but is somewhat gimped by the breaking power that Darm provides for Sun that allows for abusers to easily clean in the lategame. We can refer to pre-April drop trends for the validity of this idea.
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Personally, though, I think the idea of suspecting Venusaur is a great first step to figuring out sun for now. Darmanitan is not as consistent as the Chlorophyll abusers despite its strength and breaking power, and it has a lot more immediate answers as opposed to stalling out sun so you don't get obliterated by Chlorophyll abusers. If sun proves to be too strong even without Venusaur, I personally think Chlorophyll + Drought might be the next good step given how Darmanitan on its own hasn't exactly proven as much of a problem.
It's hard to pinpoint the exact issue, because Sun in its own right wasn't broken until Darm dropped, but the abusers don't work to nearly the same effectiveness without it. Something I learned is that metagame trends are usually what define what we consider broken in a tier. The metagame is ripe for Venusaur/Darm's picking, with many top threats being utterly dismantled by their STABs and offensive options as a whole, but the thing is that this wasn't exactly a problem until Darm and Torkoal actually dropped. It's extremely easy to slap on a Torkoal, Venusaur, Darmanitan, maybe Ninetales, and two filler Pokemon, because the sheer strength that comes from having that base core is really all you need. It's extremely powerful, and despite how cookie cutter it is, whether you can predict it or not, it's going to be a massacre regardless. I believe the best way to describe this issue is that sun has way too many effective, overwhelming options, be them nuclear or utilitarian.
So, to parse the problem, I believe the best way to look at it is to consider what exactly creates the strength of these options. The obvious answer right out the gate is Sun, but the thing is that the weather on its own is not a problem, as proven by metagame trends prior to Darmanitan's drop. The playstyle by its base is not an issue, and outright banning it, I feel, is a step that's a bit too far. Instead, I want to look at the combination of options themselves in Sun.
Venusaur + Chlorophyll Abusers
Venusaur, out of all of them, is by far the best Chlorophyll abuser. Incredible dual STABs, Growth as a boosting move, and new, extremely powerful tools in Weather Ball + Earth Power give Venusaur arguably the best, most effective coverage in the entirety of the tier (and maybe even the generation). I feel Venusaur has a similar issue to Gyarados where you have to rely on mindgames in order to survive its onslaught before Sun expires, which, given how its coverage is insanely strong, is a very problematic "check" of sorts, as prediction being the best way you beat something is never a good sign of a healthy Pokemon. For the most part, I actually completely understand the decision to suspect Venusaur first as opposed to suspecting Sun itself or Darm.
However, I rarely see people discuss the effectiveness of Chlorophyll abusers in general, and in here lies the problem of hunting down Venusaur specifically. Things like Vileplume and Shiftry, while less effective in a vaccuum, still yield incredibly powerful offensive options that, in some cases, can be even more effective than Venusaur. Vileplume has access to Moonblast--which is a great option against Noivern--as well as the same dual STABs as Venusaur, and Shiftry has access to Dark STAB and is a great check against Doublade, which can usually Shadow Sneak a weakened Venusaur. While these two examples aren't as immediately dangerous as Venusaur, I want to highlight the exact reason why this would still be a problem.
Darmanitan.
Darmanitan
I don't need to show you the absolutely asinine calcs that this behemoth rocks for you to know that Darmanitan is an absolute powerhouse in Sun. However, what I don't see people often talking about are its other moveslots. While Flare Blitz in Sun with Sheer Force and base 140 Attack is not even remotely a switch-in, the fact that this thing has Trick, U-Turn, Earthquake, and Rock Slide as options as well is an absolutely horrifying prospect. It has a similar issue to Venusaur and co. regarding its switch-ins, however, I believe that even in Sun, its options can be punished, especially with the newly dropped Rotom-Wash and the rise of defensive behemoths such as Rhyperior.
--
The reason I bring these two in accounting for is because of something that I seldom see talked about: their incredible synergy. There's a reason the cookie cutter sun core has become so powerful in the tier, and it's because it's legitimately an amazing offensive core. The options these two components of sun have to support each other is absolutely mind breaking, and I believe this is the problem of sun.
Darmanitan pries apart any potential Chlorophyll check, and vice versa with Darmanitan. These two together lack switchins and cover one another's back in the process, which is why they work so incredibly well together even if you can expect to see it. Suspecting Venusaur is definitely a good step, but, that doesn't change the amazing synergy Chlorophyll abusers and Darm have in the tier. Once Venusaur is banned, new Chlorophyll users will rise to take its place, which, in combination with Darmanitan, would yield the same exact problem, even with Venusaur being gone.
Ideally, we want as little bans as possible and for the metagame to have as many options as we can give it. So, I have two potential ideas if Sun proves to be too strong even without Venusaur.
1: We suspect Chlorophyll + Drought
This is taking some inspiration from Gen 5's Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, but I believe given my observations, if we wanted to stop the reign of Venusaur specifically, I think the approach would be to suspect this particular combo. Though, given Venusaur's upcoming suspect, this very well could be the only thing we need to do. We can't entirely ensure that this combo is the problem or if it's just Venusaur itself, so I think the council's voting on a Venusaur suspect is a good move to minimize potential bans.
2: We suspect Darmanitan
This one I'm less as sure about, because Darmanitan faces many more immediate issues unlike Venusaur/Chlorophyll. This mainly comes in the form of recoil damage, a hazard weakness, and a priority weakness. It can wear down very easily even with its groundbreaking power, and pretty much necessitates a choice item to retain consistent effectiveness as a breaker. I've seen the stray HDB, but this set is picked apart easily by Pokemon that are faster than it--which aren't far and none--due to the loss of speed. Without Darm, Chlorophyll retains its gargantuan strength but is somewhat gimped by the breaking power that Darm provides for Sun that allows for abusers to easily clean in the lategame. We can refer to pre-April drop trends for the validity of this idea.
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Personally, though, I think the idea of suspecting Venusaur is a great first step to figuring out sun for now. Darmanitan is not as consistent as the Chlorophyll abusers despite its strength and breaking power, and it has a lot more immediate answers as opposed to stalling out sun so you don't get obliterated by Chlorophyll abusers. If sun proves to be too strong even without Venusaur, I personally think Chlorophyll + Drought might be the next good step given how Darmanitan on its own hasn't exactly proven as much of a problem.
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Here are my ideas for the Drought Suspect up here. A multitude of bans can be put in place here, but here are my thoughts on what I would do.
1: Ban Drought
2: Ban Venusaur
3: Ban Darmanitan
4: Ban Chlorophyll
5: Ban Heat Rock
5.5: Ban Torkoal and Ninetales
6: Do Nothing
I would go with banning Chlorophyll and Darmanitan. Here's why.
Venusaur is only broken with Chlorophyll. It would be perfectly fine with its other ability, Overgrow. I believe that Chlorophyll is what pushed Venusaur over the edge, and if we ban the problematic ability, Venusaur would be perfectly fine. Darmanitan, on the other hand, is broken due to its sheer wallbreaking power in sun. If Drought were banned, Darmanitan would have to rely on choice band to do damage, which sucks for Darmanitan.
I dont want to ban drought just yet because I believe Chlorophyll Venusaur and Darmanitan are the most broken abusers. If new sun threats pop up, I may go back on my word, but for now, I believe drought should NOT be banned.
As stated above, venusaur is perfectly fine without chlorophyll.
Banning Heat Rock would help, but I think that would be less effective in making sun bearable in UU.
Banning the setters isn't right because, first off, Ninetales is an RU TIER POKEMON, and we are talking about banning it. Torkoal and Ninetales are only problematic because they have Drought.
I dont think action shouldn't be taken. otherwise the meta will crumble.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk
1: Ban Drought
2: Ban Venusaur
3: Ban Darmanitan
4: Ban Chlorophyll
5: Ban Heat Rock
5.5: Ban Torkoal and Ninetales
6: Do Nothing
I would go with banning Chlorophyll and Darmanitan. Here's why.
Venusaur is only broken with Chlorophyll. It would be perfectly fine with its other ability, Overgrow. I believe that Chlorophyll is what pushed Venusaur over the edge, and if we ban the problematic ability, Venusaur would be perfectly fine. Darmanitan, on the other hand, is broken due to its sheer wallbreaking power in sun. If Drought were banned, Darmanitan would have to rely on choice band to do damage, which sucks for Darmanitan.
I dont want to ban drought just yet because I believe Chlorophyll Venusaur and Darmanitan are the most broken abusers. If new sun threats pop up, I may go back on my word, but for now, I believe drought should NOT be banned.
As stated above, venusaur is perfectly fine without chlorophyll.
Banning Heat Rock would help, but I think that would be less effective in making sun bearable in UU.
Banning the setters isn't right because, first off, Ninetales is an RU TIER POKEMON, and we are talking about banning it. Torkoal and Ninetales are only problematic because they have Drought.
I dont think action shouldn't be taken. otherwise the meta will crumble.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk
Chlorophyll isn’t what is problematic though. Chlorophyll pushing Venusaur over the edge doesn’t make Chlorophyll the problem, it makes Venusaur. It’s Venusaur as a package. Chlorophyll doesn’t push Shiftry or Whimsicott over the edge. So the ability fundamentally isn’t the problem.
A couple of announcements.
First of all, we recently had two long-time council members step down: after literally years of support and insight, Pak and Sage have both decided to retire from the UU council. Both users have helped to shape UU over the last 2-3 generations and we really appreciate their contributions to the gen. To replace them, we have rotated in TonyFlygon and CBU. Tony was a prior council member in ORAS and SM UU and has recently been very active in SS UU, while CBU has been a major influencer in the tier for years and a constant presence in UU tournaments. Welcome to both.
Second, regarding Venusaur, after much discussion the council moved forward with the vote on Venusaur, and in an 11-2 vote has decided to ban Venusaur from UU. The council still unanimously believes moving forward with the policy discussion and ideally banning Drought is the correct route, but felt that this was the best non-Drought ban option while that discussion is ongoing. If a Drought ban does result from the policy discussion, this ban will be reversed.
To quote from the tiering framework that was distributed to tier leaders prior to Gen 8's release (and which was quoted in the Drought PR discussion):
First of all, we recently had two long-time council members step down: after literally years of support and insight, Pak and Sage have both decided to retire from the UU council. Both users have helped to shape UU over the last 2-3 generations and we really appreciate their contributions to the gen. To replace them, we have rotated in TonyFlygon and CBU. Tony was a prior council member in ORAS and SM UU and has recently been very active in SS UU, while CBU has been a major influencer in the tier for years and a constant presence in UU tournaments. Welcome to both.
Second, regarding Venusaur, after much discussion the council moved forward with the vote on Venusaur, and in an 11-2 vote has decided to ban Venusaur from UU. The council still unanimously believes moving forward with the policy discussion and ideally banning Drought is the correct route, but felt that this was the best non-Drought ban option while that discussion is ongoing. If a Drought ban does result from the policy discussion, this ban will be reversed.
To quote from the tiering framework that was distributed to tier leaders prior to Gen 8's release (and which was quoted in the Drought PR discussion):
Venusaur was determined to be the single biggest Sun threat due to its combination of above average bulk, decent defensive typing, ease of boosting and the power of effectively having triple STAB with Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb/Weather Ball. While concerns still exist that Sun will remain an unhealthy presence even without Venusaur, this was the most direct way to move forward with the Sun issue without bypassing our policy requirements. If you would like to continue the discussion regarding banning Drought, please direct it to the current policy discussion on Drought. In the meantime, Marty The Immortal, please remove Venusaur from the UU ladder.
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Firstly, I'd like to congratulate and welcome TonyFlygon and CBU to the council! You guys will do great! :>
Anyway, onto the ban itself.
I was not expecting a quick ban, to say the least, but I think that this ban for the meantime is a great first step to figuring out the problem with Sun in UU.
Regarding a bit more about what I feel regarding this all, I do genuinely feel like Drought itself may the problem after playing some more. We know that the setters are not broken by any stretch of the word, neither are the abusers by their base; I addressed this some in my post above. However, making it so we get rid of the auto-set of Sun not only opens abusing Pokemon back up in terms of fairness, but also makes it so the playstyle itself isn't stricken away, making it require more finesse and not as easy as a double. For now, we can definitely expect for people to try and fill the void of Venusaur with other abusers, namely Vileplume and Shiftry that come to mind; only time will tell if this is indicative of a different problem.
Good job as usual guys, and I'm curious to see how the metagame evolves in the coming few weeks!
Anyway, onto the ban itself.
I was not expecting a quick ban, to say the least, but I think that this ban for the meantime is a great first step to figuring out the problem with Sun in UU.
Regarding a bit more about what I feel regarding this all, I do genuinely feel like Drought itself may the problem after playing some more. We know that the setters are not broken by any stretch of the word, neither are the abusers by their base; I addressed this some in my post above. However, making it so we get rid of the auto-set of Sun not only opens abusing Pokemon back up in terms of fairness, but also makes it so the playstyle itself isn't stricken away, making it require more finesse and not as easy as a double. For now, we can definitely expect for people to try and fill the void of Venusaur with other abusers, namely Vileplume and Shiftry that come to mind; only time will tell if this is indicative of a different problem.
Good job as usual guys, and I'm curious to see how the metagame evolves in the coming few weeks!
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CBU
Banned deucer.
Hello everyone. As the newest addition to the UU council team I would like to take this opportunity to both thank the already existing members for trusting me with this role and also explain my personal vote on Venusaur. Note that while I will be exclusively stating my opinion on the matter, many approached the matter similarly. This vote was a rather weird one, because the way I see it we had to decide between two wrongs. Venusaur as a stand alone pokemon is barely viable in UU, if not RU worth. However, non-manual sun teams completely transform Venusaur making it sometimes impossible to stop at +2 or even neutral under the sun, seeing as pretty much nothing switches reliably into grass+poison+fire+L.O. boost. However, all of the above only matter if drought is allowed in the tier, since in any other circumstance Venusaur just becomes a worse Roserade. Having said all of that, my original instinct was to vote no ban, because the way I see it what pushed Venusaur to broken/unhealthy status is Drought and not its stats/movepool/versatility/etc. But given the fact that as of right now a Drought vote/ban is not possible we were faced with options:
Option 1: Ban Venusaur. This would result in sending Venusaur to the no man's land known as UUBL and basically making unusable to any tier lower than OU. As a result, sun gets deprived of its biggest threat and we hope that this will make it more obscure and not as spammable if not broken.
Option 2: Do Not Ban Venusaur. Keep the pokemon in the tier it is ok at best(outside sun) but allow Venusaur sun teams to continue and terrorize the ladder.
If you ask me, both options are not optimal. However, the 1st one at least partially solves the problem at hand. And hence, with the hope that in the future a Drought ban and consequently a Venusaur retest would be possible, I voted ban. Thanks for your time.
Option 1: Ban Venusaur. This would result in sending Venusaur to the no man's land known as UUBL and basically making unusable to any tier lower than OU. As a result, sun gets deprived of its biggest threat and we hope that this will make it more obscure and not as spammable if not broken.
Option 2: Do Not Ban Venusaur. Keep the pokemon in the tier it is ok at best(outside sun) but allow Venusaur sun teams to continue and terrorize the ladder.
If you ask me, both options are not optimal. However, the 1st one at least partially solves the problem at hand. And hence, with the hope that in the future a Drought ban and consequently a Venusaur retest would be possible, I voted ban. Thanks for your time.
Thank you Hogg and TDK for having me back on the council and thanks for the welcome Ausma. Nice meme as well! 
Since I was one of the voters on Venusaur I want to elaborate a little on what I voted and what lead to my decision. I voted to ban Venusaur, though I did so reluctantly. I don't think Venusaur is the sole reason Drought based teams are problematic in the current metagame (contrary to Shiftry in RU), even though it's admittedly the biggest reason. I believe banning Drought outright is the best solution, but pending the outcome of the Drought in lower tiers Policy Review thread we can't pull such a trigger quite yet. Fair enough.
In the meantime I don't hate this ban as a step into the right direction. Should banning Drought become an option that's available to us in the future, then we can revisit the Venusaur ban similarly to the Houndoom-Mega ban from last generation. As for what to expect from the post-Venusaur metagame, it'll be interesting to see how the other Chlorophyll options will handle filling the Venusaur shaped hole in our team builders. All of them except Vileplume struggle with First Impression, while Vileplume doesn't have the luxury of Weather Ball that Venusaur so mercilessly abused. Speaking of First Impression, Haxorus is probably the next blip on the proverbial radar as far as problematic presences go. Time will tell if that's actually the case, of course.
Since I was one of the voters on Venusaur I want to elaborate a little on what I voted and what lead to my decision. I voted to ban Venusaur, though I did so reluctantly. I don't think Venusaur is the sole reason Drought based teams are problematic in the current metagame (contrary to Shiftry in RU), even though it's admittedly the biggest reason. I believe banning Drought outright is the best solution, but pending the outcome of the Drought in lower tiers Policy Review thread we can't pull such a trigger quite yet. Fair enough.
In the meantime I don't hate this ban as a step into the right direction. Should banning Drought become an option that's available to us in the future, then we can revisit the Venusaur ban similarly to the Houndoom-Mega ban from last generation. As for what to expect from the post-Venusaur metagame, it'll be interesting to see how the other Chlorophyll options will handle filling the Venusaur shaped hole in our team builders. All of them except Vileplume struggle with First Impression, while Vileplume doesn't have the luxury of Weather Ball that Venusaur so mercilessly abused. Speaking of First Impression, Haxorus is probably the next blip on the proverbial radar as far as problematic presences go. Time will tell if that's actually the case, of course.
Solid decision by the council. Hopefully this will be enough of a nerf to sun teams that further action won't be necessary. Sun teams will need to adjust to the loss of Venusaur, with the most obvious replacement being Shiftry.
Shiftry lacks the bulk and Toxic immunity that allowed Venusaur to easily set up Growth in the face of many defensive pokemon, but offensively it is a threatening Chlorophyll sweeper, with options for physical, mixed, and special sets.
Knock Off is a strong spammable STAB move. Solar Blade hits like a truck, but Leaf Blade can be also used so that Shiftry can function better outside of sun. Focus Blast hits Incineroar and Cobalion, although at +2 it is a roll to OHKO bulky Incineroar. Sucker Punch can be used instead to surprise Trace Gardevoir trying to revenge kill Shiftry in sun, as well as faster mons that attempt to check it outside of sun. Protect is another option to stop First Impression users from ending Shiftry's sweep.
Solar Beam has a chance of OHKOing physically defensive Sylveon at +2, but Giga Drain recovers off Life Orb recoil and works outside of sun. Dark Pulse hits grass resists such as Noivern and Arcanine. Heat Wave destroys Escavalier and Whimsicott, while Focus Blast smacks Incineroar. As with the physical set, Protect can be used to stop First Impression.
Shiftry learns both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot in addition to Growth, but using Growth keeps the opponent guessing which Shiftry set you're running. Calcs for the Incineroar and Sylveon rolls are provided below.
Shiftry lacks the bulk and Toxic immunity that allowed Venusaur to easily set up Growth in the face of many defensive pokemon, but offensively it is a threatening Chlorophyll sweeper, with options for physical, mixed, and special sets.
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty / Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Solar Blade / Leaf Blade
- Focus Blast / Sucker Punch / Protect
- Growth
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty / Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Solar Blade / Leaf Blade
- Focus Blast / Sucker Punch / Protect
- Growth
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam / Giga Drain
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave / Focus Blast / Protect
- Growth
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam / Giga Drain
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave / Focus Blast / Protect
- Growth
Shiftry learns both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot in addition to Growth, but using Growth keeps the opponent guessing which Shiftry set you're running. Calcs for the Incineroar and Sylveon rolls are provided below.
+2 4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 68+ SpD Incineroar: 380-447 (96.6 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 344-407 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 344-407 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Well, now that Venusaur was banned, I think there should be an upcoming Suspect Test
Let's start with this
Proban Arguments:
- It creates a lot of tension in team building, because it forces you to carry things like Snorlax, Full Special Defense Calm Mind Sylveon, Togedemaru and AV Copperajah and Darmanitan is a check by the way (of course, if Sylveon does not wear Hyper Beam or is Wish + Toxic or Yawn), but he's definitely a centralizer and the fat teams don't have options to stop him well.
- It is too unpredictable, this goes for the Calm Mind sets, because these have too much freedom in their item, they can carry some plate, Leftovers, Babiri Berry, Throat Spray or Expert Belt, which serve to either make it more bulky or make it more offensive and it also has a lot of variety of EV Spreads and even variety of moves.
Anti Ban Argument:
- I only have one argument for this, it has low speed and physical defense, so it is very vulnerable to many fast physical sweepers like Cobalion or Darmanitan, but there really isn't much else.
Is broken? Yes, it is broken, I really think that the proban arguments have much more weight than the anti ban argument, I think I can see it even more broken than Primarina for a simple reason, it is more versatile and certainly should not stay, although in the DLC it could Consider a retest and even then it could be very dependent on things like Metagross or Blissey being taken away (it's a silly guess) you should go for now.
Edit: I don't know why people make the "hahaha" reaction meaningless
Let's start with this
Proban Arguments:
- It creates a lot of tension in team building, because it forces you to carry things like Snorlax, Full Special Defense Calm Mind Sylveon, Togedemaru and AV Copperajah and Darmanitan is a check by the way (of course, if Sylveon does not wear Hyper Beam or is Wish + Toxic or Yawn), but he's definitely a centralizer and the fat teams don't have options to stop him well.
- It is too unpredictable, this goes for the Calm Mind sets, because these have too much freedom in their item, they can carry some plate, Leftovers, Babiri Berry, Throat Spray or Expert Belt, which serve to either make it more bulky or make it more offensive and it also has a lot of variety of EV Spreads and even variety of moves.
Anti Ban Argument:
- I only have one argument for this, it has low speed and physical defense, so it is very vulnerable to many fast physical sweepers like Cobalion or Darmanitan, but there really isn't much else.
Is broken? Yes, it is broken, I really think that the proban arguments have much more weight than the anti ban argument, I think I can see it even more broken than Primarina for a simple reason, it is more versatile and certainly should not stay, although in the DLC it could Consider a retest and even then it could be very dependent on things like Metagross or Blissey being taken away (it's a silly guess) you should go for now.
Edit: I don't know why people make the "hahaha" reaction meaningless
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This just ain't it pal. Sylveon's good, INCREDIBLY good, but nowhere near overwhelming because of the fact that most teams are well prepared for its Wish-passing shenanigans due to Fairy resists laden around the metagame everywhere, and the fact that offensive sets (Specs)have to compete with Gardevoir, with tricks such as HWish which is absolutely huge in a tight spot, the move Trick to more heavily cripple would switches such as Zong, a higher speed, STAB on its psyshock...You also mention Hyper Beam(not viable)and Toxic and Yawn, which Sylveon has a hard time fitting on teams due to mandating moves like Protect, Heal Bell, and sometimes Mystical Fire on defensive sets to dent steels, but the metagame is more than ready to take on fairy types. Chandelure, Roserade, Toxtricity, Bronzong, technically Gigalith w/Heavy Slam, and even mons like Doub, and Darm. these pokemon are more than ready to take on Sylveon. All in all, Sylveon may be a top tier, even better than Noivern, but it isn't twisting the metagame or anything
scorbunnys
Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Maybe, but it's hard to switch in, although yeah, maybe it's not as centralizing as I said, although Sylveon is indeed the best UnderUsed at the moment.
PD: You should mention his Specs set and his Calm Mind set.
Mygrein
Banned deucer.
yes hello i would to say that it is almost disrespectful that neither Ramolost or Solonor have been in the council as rotation when they are so consistent in ladder play and tier knowledge, i would explain further but i dont want to. But i Do. Free them in council wtf literally deserved
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I think the VENUSAUR BAN is stupid, the tools are here to make complex bans, like banning combination of drought with venusaur, or any other option. Banning Venusaur barely accomplishes anything, people will still carry sun and destroy the ground with Darmanitan and whatever shitty chlorophyll they use, its like you just put duct tape on it until you decide what to do. Sun can carry Chandelure + Darm + 3 mons and still put insane pressure just from team preview, there is no progress made, venu sucks without sun. Ez logic guys, if venu is made good by sun why isnt sun banned? yes i too went to grade school, but i flunked every grade
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I think the VENUSAUR BAN is stupid, the tools are here to make complex bans, like banning combination of drought with venusaur, or any other option. Banning Venusaur barely accomplishes anything, people will still carry sun and destroy the ground with Darmanitan and whatever shitty chlorophyll they use, its like you just put duct tape on it until you decide what to do. Sun can carry Chandelure + Darm + 3 mons and still put insane pressure just from team preview, there is no progress made, venu sucks without sun. Ez logic guys, if venu is made good by sun why isnt sun banned? yes i too went to grade school, but i flunked every grade
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Given the way this thread and the policy discussion developed I believe the Venusaur ban was the correct move at the moment. It was becoming very clear that the policy discussion thread was hitting an impasse. It was pretty evident Drought was unhealthy across multiple tiers, but it had yet to be shown that UU exhausted their options trying to neutralize Sun by way of individual bans. Combine that with the fact Sun was centralized around a small number of abusers, and a Drought ban was not going to occur without this decision.
Before this ban Sun teams never ventured from the path that is Venusaur. The only real constant you could rely on from sun team was Drought user + Venusaur. There were a lot of commonalities among sun teams such as Scarf Gardevoir or the much discussed Darmanitan, but teams managed to produce without them. Venusaur was the only Pokemon Sun teams seemingly couldn't live without. Its combination of bulk, power, and movepool gave no reason for other options such as Shiftry or Leafeon to be considered. That said now is the time for the UU community to determine whether or not Drought as a whole is unhealthy for the metagame, or if Venusaur is what pushed Sun over the edge.
Now that Venusaur is gone there are a host of characters that need to be looked at. Primarily discussed is
, it needs to be observed if Darmanitan in the sun is an overwhelming enough force in the sun to compensate for the loss of Venusaur. The sheer breaking power of Darmanitan in the sun is unmatched, but without a truly reliable Chlorophyll user it is yet to be seen if Sun can even survive. It was widely discussed that
and
themselves are not that great, so without a solid Chlorophyll abuser their individual opportunity cost might not be worth Darmanitan in the sun as opposed to Darmanitan thrown on another more standard offensive team.
The more intriguing prospect in my eyes will be who manages to replace Venusaur as the Chlorophyll abuser of choice. I have seen 3 names brought up pretty regularly, those being:
. Whether or not one, or multiple, of these mons manages to fill the void left by Venusaur the argument will grow stronger for banning Drought as a whole. Since removing one Chorophyll user from the tier is one thing, banning several is another.
I'll start with Vileplume, and I'll just say I do not see this mon rising up to anywhere near the power of Venusaur. It shares a typing, has access to Growth, Giga Drain, and Sludge Bomb, but it lacks Weather ball and Earth Power having to settle for Moonblast coverage. This means bulky steels like Escavalier, Doublade, and Bronzong wall Vileplume. Vileplume also has an awful speed tier (50), being outpaced by Scarfed Darmanitan and Flygon with the sun up. Overall I don't see a real reason to run this thing. Maybe some Strength Sap shenanigans, but idk seems like a good way to waste some sun turns in the long run.
Leafeon is a bit more of an interesting case. With access to reliable setup in Swords Dance, and a solid speed tier (95) Leafeon is looking immediately more solid than Vileplume. At a glance its biggest drawback appears to be a lack of coverage. Aside from Knock Off it appears running a combination of Leaf Blade and Solar Blade might be Leafeon's best option. I should point out X-scissor could be run to help out vs Incineroar, but between Intimidate and the immediate damage threatened from Flare Blitz in the sun it's not going to be a huge benefit and you're probably better off Knocking boots and chipping it that way. However, there are other options if double grass or X-Scissor don't float your boat. The first being Protect that would help Leafeon avoid being knocked out by First Impression users. Another cheeky option I've looked at in the builder is actually Weather Ball. with a neutral nature and Life Orb it has a 25% chance to OHKO max SpDef Escavalier after rocks, but that is another mon that you're most likely better off Knocking and hoping to just chip away at. Overall though Leafeon has some solid potential.
Shiftry is probably the most talked about mon, and for good reason. Access to Swords Dance and Nasty Plot leads to some unknown in what you're up against. On top of that it has access to strong grass stab options in Leaf Blade/Giga Drain, Dark Stab in Dark Pulse and the always useful Knock Off, and great coverage options. Heatwave probably stands out the most as a way to bypass mons like Escavalier that could be troublesome otherwise. At this point Incineroar seems like something that could be problematic, but Shiftry also has access to Focus Blast which helps amend that. While it doesn't have the insane perfect coverage of Venusaur, it definitely has options to make it beat what its team needs it to beat. Overall like Leafeon I see Shiftry as a strong mon, and will be interested to see what the most used set ends up being.
At this point I've addressed what I will most be looking at with the Venusaur ban when it comes to whether or not Sun has been adequately dealt with. I honestly feel like a Venusaur ban wont be enough, but at this point the time the only thing that will actually cause a Drought ban to occur will be evidence that mons like Leafeon, Shiftry, and Darmanitan continue to provide an unhealthy presence to the tier, and one or two Pokemon bans will not fix the issue. For the moment I believe the best course of action when it comes to sun, and other potentially broken elements of the metagame like Haxorus, is probably just to let the meta settle after the Venusaur ban and see what threats rise to problematic levels with a bit of time. Since some people are already getting a little thirsty calling for bans 1 day after a different ban.
Before this ban Sun teams never ventured from the path that is Venusaur. The only real constant you could rely on from sun team was Drought user + Venusaur. There were a lot of commonalities among sun teams such as Scarf Gardevoir or the much discussed Darmanitan, but teams managed to produce without them. Venusaur was the only Pokemon Sun teams seemingly couldn't live without. Its combination of bulk, power, and movepool gave no reason for other options such as Shiftry or Leafeon to be considered. That said now is the time for the UU community to determine whether or not Drought as a whole is unhealthy for the metagame, or if Venusaur is what pushed Sun over the edge.
Now that Venusaur is gone there are a host of characters that need to be looked at. Primarily discussed is
The more intriguing prospect in my eyes will be who manages to replace Venusaur as the Chlorophyll abuser of choice. I have seen 3 names brought up pretty regularly, those being:
At this point I've addressed what I will most be looking at with the Venusaur ban when it comes to whether or not Sun has been adequately dealt with. I honestly feel like a Venusaur ban wont be enough, but at this point the time the only thing that will actually cause a Drought ban to occur will be evidence that mons like Leafeon, Shiftry, and Darmanitan continue to provide an unhealthy presence to the tier, and one or two Pokemon bans will not fix the issue. For the moment I believe the best course of action when it comes to sun, and other potentially broken elements of the metagame like Haxorus, is probably just to let the meta settle after the Venusaur ban and see what threats rise to problematic levels with a bit of time. Since some people are already getting a little thirsty calling for bans 1 day after a different ban.
With the elephant (or frog, I guess) in the room now addressed, I feel like taking a look at two more potentially broken elements within the tier. These are just personal opinions of course, so take them with a grain of salt if you wanna.
Haxorus
Haxorus is the big one. Dexit was a pretty big win for this dragon, with most of the reliable fairies that could actually dream of taking it on no longer existing and the lack of options to revenge kill it that we had last gen (Scizor, scarf Hydra/Krook (yes i know krook was slower but it had intimidate shush), Mamo etc.) making it pretty hard to deal with no matter what kind of team it's on. I don't think band hax is really an issue anymore but DD has become an absolute monster without Ice Shard to revenge it. The fact that its last slot is entirely customisable to bypass what would otherwise be decent answers (Protect helps against Golisopod, Poison Jab fends off Sylveon) makes counterplay super constricted and reliable, guaranteed counterplay is literally just scarf Flygon or scarf Inteleon. Its solid bulk, especially under screens, and amazing speed tier (as far as this meta is concerned) makes it way too difficult to actually deal with, and if we're suspecting anything next, it should probably be Haxorus.
Necrozma
Necrozma is interesting. It was a bit of a sleeper threat for a while, but now that people have fully realised what it's capable of, it's becoming quite difficult to find reliable responses. The rise of Pangoro has made it a bit more manageable lately, but any team without a Dark-type is pretty much guaranteed to lose to it because reliably OHKOing it is nearly impossible without a banded Knock Off, and the pool of mons that can actually take a +1 Photon Geyser is really limited. This is just the DD set too, it's seen a lot of experimentation with CM, defensive rocks, offensive rocks, autotomize and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting about. I don't think it's necessarily super unhealthy rn but it's worth keeping an eye on it.
One other thing I wanted to mention is that, as I'm sure we all know, tier shifts are coming up. I haven't been playing OU much at all, but from what I've heard, there are a few Pokemon we have decent odds of getting:
If these four actually drop (or even just Grimmsnarl, which is the main one I'm looking forward to) we have quite a bit to think about. Screens will obviously appreciate another, better setter in Grimmsnarl, but it also provides a decent check to both Haxorus and Necrozma. Of course, having one Pokemon in the tier that beats them doesn't suddenly mean "okay these mons aren't broken anymore", but it's still worth noting that it may be hasty to pull any triggers going forward. Looking forward to the potential meta shifts! C:
Haxorus
Haxorus is the big one. Dexit was a pretty big win for this dragon, with most of the reliable fairies that could actually dream of taking it on no longer existing and the lack of options to revenge kill it that we had last gen (Scizor, scarf Hydra/Krook (yes i know krook was slower but it had intimidate shush), Mamo etc.) making it pretty hard to deal with no matter what kind of team it's on. I don't think band hax is really an issue anymore but DD has become an absolute monster without Ice Shard to revenge it. The fact that its last slot is entirely customisable to bypass what would otherwise be decent answers (Protect helps against Golisopod, Poison Jab fends off Sylveon) makes counterplay super constricted and reliable, guaranteed counterplay is literally just scarf Flygon or scarf Inteleon. Its solid bulk, especially under screens, and amazing speed tier (as far as this meta is concerned) makes it way too difficult to actually deal with, and if we're suspecting anything next, it should probably be Haxorus.
Necrozma
Necrozma is interesting. It was a bit of a sleeper threat for a while, but now that people have fully realised what it's capable of, it's becoming quite difficult to find reliable responses. The rise of Pangoro has made it a bit more manageable lately, but any team without a Dark-type is pretty much guaranteed to lose to it because reliably OHKOing it is nearly impossible without a banded Knock Off, and the pool of mons that can actually take a +1 Photon Geyser is really limited. This is just the DD set too, it's seen a lot of experimentation with CM, defensive rocks, offensive rocks, autotomize and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting about. I don't think it's necessarily super unhealthy rn but it's worth keeping an eye on it.
One other thing I wanted to mention is that, as I'm sure we all know, tier shifts are coming up. I haven't been playing OU much at all, but from what I've heard, there are a few Pokemon we have decent odds of getting:
If these four actually drop (or even just Grimmsnarl, which is the main one I'm looking forward to) we have quite a bit to think about. Screens will obviously appreciate another, better setter in Grimmsnarl, but it also provides a decent check to both Haxorus and Necrozma. Of course, having one Pokemon in the tier that beats them doesn't suddenly mean "okay these mons aren't broken anymore", but it's still worth noting that it may be hasty to pull any triggers going forward. Looking forward to the potential meta shifts! C:
Currently, Mimikyu and Grimmsnarl got real good usages in OU so i don't think they are gonna fall in UU for now. It's not the main problem at the moment.
The ban of Venusaur is questionable, but yes it was too broken for now, but Darmanitan is still a big threat in the tier and i don't really see why he isn't ban too. I'm agree with the fact that Sylveon will be stronger now with the ban of Venusaur.
The ban of Venusaur is questionable, but yes it was too broken for now, but Darmanitan is still a big threat in the tier and i don't really see why he isn't ban too. I'm agree with the fact that Sylveon will be stronger now with the ban of Venusaur.
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Hey so I know UU is going to get a bunch of new mons possibly in a few days but I wanted to echo the sentiment by and large that haxorus absolutely should be suspected. To me there are two primary issues with haxorus that by and large differentiates it from other mons - lack of defensive counterplay which a lot of hard breakers in the tier do have admittedly but the bigger one is lack of offensive revenge killing in my eyes.
For lack of defensive counterplay mold breaker eq nullifies nearly all mons that resist its dragon stab. Dragon + Ground coverage is so good in this meta mainly because the one good flying type in the tier is noivern and UU relies very heavily on levitate users as its ground resists rn. The fact that haxorus only needs to run one coverage move to 2hko the entire tier is ludicrously good for an offensive mon because it frees up its other two moveslots to customise its sets quite extensively which brings me to my biggest point in that for an offensive mon with one stab type it is free to choose what coverage it wants to run in order to get past its few defensive checks or be a lot harder to revenge kill. Hax can choose between 6 offensive moves it wants to run: dclaw, outrage, eq, cc, poison jab and first impression. I disagree with the sentiment that band isn't a threat since given its coverage it is so hard to switch into especially given its speed tier and functions perfectly well on a lot of BO teams. Band eq also gives it immediate power that most of its checks can't really switch into it like sylveon or escavalier. If haxorus is running ddance then it can choose for its last move what it wants to be: protect, poison jab, first impression. Different moves serve different purposes on teams but the opponent who is playing haxorus especially when facing screens has to guess which of the filler moves haxorus is running in order to check it. Sylveon for instance cant reliably check poison jab while pod can't chunk it with impression if protect. The point is you end up having to run multiple countermeasures to a mon that already has so few which significantly warps playing and prepping for it. One of the counter-arguments cited earlier was that haxorus' frailty didn't allow it to set up ddances reliably but the recent advent of screens has changed that dynamic completely with lum berry also to avoid status and more often than not on screens haxorus will get one dance off. If it doesn't sweep on its own it punches enough holes for the rest of its teammates to clean through which makes screens a stupidly abusable playstyle right now.
The bigger point however i wanted to mention is how bad the capabilities of revenge killing it is. Out of the mainstream scarfers in the tier, the one that outspeeds and reliably KOs it is flygon. A lot of potential scarfers in the tier like garde/chandelure/rotom etc have their viability completely killed by the fact that they can't rkill hax and that's made teams a lot more reliant on running teams with vern as the sole speed control. Priority with mamoswine gone is quite restricted to first impression users in the tier but they can't reliably rkill hax if it runs protect or if screens are up. Teams have then resorted to running multiple defensive checks to it as a way to deal with hax rather than try and offensively checking it which is so hard in the current tier and what differentiates hax from a lot of other breakers in the tier.
All in all even if grimmsnarl serves as a soft check, hax to me has warped the tier quite negatively around it and deserves to be suspected. It only got so much better once mamoswine left the tier, much like sun had
For lack of defensive counterplay mold breaker eq nullifies nearly all mons that resist its dragon stab. Dragon + Ground coverage is so good in this meta mainly because the one good flying type in the tier is noivern and UU relies very heavily on levitate users as its ground resists rn. The fact that haxorus only needs to run one coverage move to 2hko the entire tier is ludicrously good for an offensive mon because it frees up its other two moveslots to customise its sets quite extensively which brings me to my biggest point in that for an offensive mon with one stab type it is free to choose what coverage it wants to run in order to get past its few defensive checks or be a lot harder to revenge kill. Hax can choose between 6 offensive moves it wants to run: dclaw, outrage, eq, cc, poison jab and first impression. I disagree with the sentiment that band isn't a threat since given its coverage it is so hard to switch into especially given its speed tier and functions perfectly well on a lot of BO teams. Band eq also gives it immediate power that most of its checks can't really switch into it like sylveon or escavalier. If haxorus is running ddance then it can choose for its last move what it wants to be: protect, poison jab, first impression. Different moves serve different purposes on teams but the opponent who is playing haxorus especially when facing screens has to guess which of the filler moves haxorus is running in order to check it. Sylveon for instance cant reliably check poison jab while pod can't chunk it with impression if protect. The point is you end up having to run multiple countermeasures to a mon that already has so few which significantly warps playing and prepping for it. One of the counter-arguments cited earlier was that haxorus' frailty didn't allow it to set up ddances reliably but the recent advent of screens has changed that dynamic completely with lum berry also to avoid status and more often than not on screens haxorus will get one dance off. If it doesn't sweep on its own it punches enough holes for the rest of its teammates to clean through which makes screens a stupidly abusable playstyle right now.
The bigger point however i wanted to mention is how bad the capabilities of revenge killing it is. Out of the mainstream scarfers in the tier, the one that outspeeds and reliably KOs it is flygon. A lot of potential scarfers in the tier like garde/chandelure/rotom etc have their viability completely killed by the fact that they can't rkill hax and that's made teams a lot more reliant on running teams with vern as the sole speed control. Priority with mamoswine gone is quite restricted to first impression users in the tier but they can't reliably rkill hax if it runs protect or if screens are up. Teams have then resorted to running multiple defensive checks to it as a way to deal with hax rather than try and offensively checking it which is so hard in the current tier and what differentiates hax from a lot of other breakers in the tier.
All in all even if grimmsnarl serves as a soft check, hax to me has warped the tier quite negatively around it and deserves to be suspected. It only got so much better once mamoswine left the tier, much like sun had
Usage stats for May are out! Here are the changes that affect us:
Ditto moved from OU to UU
Dugtrio moved from OU to UU
...Yeah. No joke. We literally got 2 mons, one of which will be completely useless. Hooray. Guess we’ll elude getting nuked by rain another day.
Ditto moved from OU to UU
Dugtrio moved from OU to UU
...Yeah. No joke. We literally got 2 mons, one of which will be completely useless. Hooray. Guess we’ll elude getting nuked by rain another day.
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we saved tyranitar from becoming UU
I'm sorry to say that but Tyranitar actually didn't need any kind of help to stay OU. It definitily stayed in this tier because it deserves it and not because it could have been spammed by a certain community :[
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- Status