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★ np: SS UU Stage 5: Change is Gonna Come (Diggersby & Venusaur BANNED)
- Thread starter kumiko
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I’m a little bit hesitant to re-open the Drought discussion so soon, considering how strong the response was against banning Drought at the time when we hadn’t explored all possible options to deal with it. Not saying it’s 100% off the table, but we should make sure we’re following all appropriate steps first.
We’ll be voting on Venusaur shortly, and if it is banned and we still think Sun teams are proving to be a problem, we can always put Charizard on next week’s voting slate. That could give us a good bellwether to determine if we should open the Drought discussion back up.
We’ll be voting on Venusaur shortly, and if it is banned and we still think Sun teams are proving to be a problem, we can always put Charizard on next week’s voting slate. That could give us a good bellwether to determine if we should open the Drought discussion back up.
I personally believe that banning Drought would be the least harmful option, as it would allow the mons usually ran on Sun teams to still be used outside of it (Most notably, Charizard and Venusaur) without banning them, and it also mean that manual Sun, while not as reliable as Drought, could still be used. (Besides, Ninetales and Torkoal could be perfectly viable in NU/PU, so it's not like they would fall into obscurity)
Like many others have stated already, I believe that Drought is the issue, not the setters or abusers. Sun has kinda been this sleeping giant that flew under the radar for the majority of this month due to all the new drops we got from OU at the beginning of the month. However, sun started to gain traction in OU and began to similarly become more popular in UU. This trend became more common as venusaur was unbanned. Like Liburr stated earlier in the thread, there are so many abusers of sun other than venusaur and charizard, like darmanitan, shiftry, hatterene, heliolisk, and incineroar while other common mons like jirachi, blissey, and mienshao fit in the archetype. In terms of banning the setters, both ninetales and torkoal can reliability set sun and banning one would not affect the playstyle too much. Nothing stops anyone from using ninetales if torkoal is banned and i doubt people would mind less role compression by running rocks on blissey or something like that if it means to continue using this playstyle.
In terms of banning venusuar+charizard, I disagree and find that when banning something, it takes more than 1 abuser to show that the playstyle is broken rather than the abusers. If venusuar were to be banned, shiftry would take it's place and still be very fearsome. This would curb sun a bit but not enough to solve the problem. If charizard were to also be banned, this wouldn't really solve the problem as there are too many threats under sun and i feel that by banning charizard, we are taking a very important pokemon away from RU when instead we could ban drought which keeps both charizard and venusaur in check. Manual sun would allow sun to still be a viable playstyle, but not too overbearing.
All in all, banning drought is the best option as so many pokemon are very dangerous under the sun archetype, making it hard to single out abusers or setters. The ban of drought would allow threats like venusaur and charizard to still be used under manual sun and not be too much.
In terms of banning venusuar+charizard, I disagree and find that when banning something, it takes more than 1 abuser to show that the playstyle is broken rather than the abusers. If venusuar were to be banned, shiftry would take it's place and still be very fearsome. This would curb sun a bit but not enough to solve the problem. If charizard were to also be banned, this wouldn't really solve the problem as there are too many threats under sun and i feel that by banning charizard, we are taking a very important pokemon away from RU when instead we could ban drought which keeps both charizard and venusaur in check. Manual sun would allow sun to still be a viable playstyle, but not too overbearing.
All in all, banning drought is the best option as so many pokemon are very dangerous under the sun archetype, making it hard to single out abusers or setters. The ban of drought would allow threats like venusaur and charizard to still be used under manual sun and not be too much.
I'm probably in the minority but I think this is the right decision. It's too soon to say that drought is broken when one of it's best abusers just got released. The discussion for drought being banned wasn't even that talked about when venasaur was still in UUBL as much as it is now
I think what happened was that unbanning Venusaur made Sun a popular playstyle again, that now it works much better with the new threats added Post-DLC (For example, Magic Bounce Hatterene makes Specs Zard viable, without the need to run HDB)
It's mostly due to the fact that no one really tried out Choice Specs Charizard before Venusaur was unbanned mostly because nobody really thought about it. The Venusaur unban just brought to light the fact that it wasn't the only powerful abuser under Sun. Charizard must be considered as a full-fledged wallbreaker under Sun. A few days ago, before the results on the votes, I was already testing Sun teams and Charizard was really showing itself as a first-class threat even without Venusaur. It's not because Charizard slipped right under the radar for a couple of months that it's not broken and shouldn't be considered as an issue and as Just_Aaron said, it now has some insanely great teammates like Hatterene or Teleport Blissey.
Y'know i think you're right in saying that people just now realized the potential of charizard.I'd be lying if I said I realized the potential of choice specs solar powered charizard before venasaur got unbanned.However I still personally believe banning venasuar at least right now would be the best course of decision. If sun still proves to be a problem then I wouldn't disagree with anything the UU council does after that wether that would be banning charizard or just banning drought entirely.But I trust whatever is done in the end(Also i just realized blissey has seen a rise in popularity in OU so if it were to risse to OU sun would loose a crucial member but even then sun may still be too much)
But the thing is Venusaur isn't that broken without Sun, and manual sun is honestly worse than sun in its current state. The fact that you have an ability than can auto-set Sun for 8 turns (with Heat Rock) is really unhealthy for the metagame as that is why Venu and Charizard as of now are genuinely impossible to counter, and that leads to why Sun as an archetype is being brought up as potentially broken.
So in the end that would mean either venasuar(and possibly charizard) or drought would have to be banned. I can see what you mean since both can't co-exist without being broken,even if i do think charizard can't carry the sun archetype if venasuar were to get banned I can't deny how much better it is with drought which is why people want drought banned in the first place
So I've come up with some stuff to help stop sun teams and here's a cool set.
Gigalith @ Weakness Policy
Careful Nature
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Sandstorm
- Stone Edge/ Rock Blast
- Sand Tomb/Stealth Rock
- Protect
If your opponent has a Torkoal or Ninetales open with a pivot and react accordingly.
If they go to Charizard, switch Gigalith straight in. Apart from Focus Blast nothing it can do is threatening in a Sandstorm and you OHKO back. Focus Blast can 2HKO though if it has Specs, but you can punish that with something like Shell Smash Poltergeist or Sub Chandelure that will get free switch in.
If they go back to their weather setter Ninetales is cleanly OHKOd (which does set Sun back up, but you can either manually set Sandstorm back if you're feeling brave, or pivot out to something and come back in). Torkoal takes about half HP from SE, but bad Rock Blast luck will miss the 2HKO even with Sandstorm chip.
If Torkoal stays in hit Sandstorm in his face, you can then try and trap him with Sand Tomb, or go for the (guaranteed after Sandstorm chip) 2HKO. You outspeed it, so Solar Beam is actually just trapping himself.
If they lead with Ninetales and stay in they can't 2HKO you.
The risky one is of course Venusaur and that's where Weakness Policy comes in.
+1 Giga Drain does about 70%, but then you OHKO back with +2 Stone Edge. Rock Blast will OHKO after Life Orb and Sandstorm with 3 hits, so pick your poison between that and SE accuracy, though SE is better for Torkoal. If he doesn't use Growth and instead Giga Drains straight away it can be a 2HKO, but once Sun is down you could switch to something fast to kill him. Don't switch to Talonflame though because Weather Ball will kill you!
He's useful against Darmanitan as well, tanking Flare Blitz (35% from Scarf) and OHKOing back, though it will probably just UTurn.
Shiftry can be handled easily, just switch in and Stone Edge.
So yeah this works!
Another fun lead is Rain Dance Mantine.
Mantine @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Modest Nature
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Surf
- Hurricane
- Whirlpool
- Rain Dance
Lead and Whirlpool into Rain Dance their sun setter. If they don't have some wacky pivoting item they're trapped and die to Surf, then you outspeed and murder swathes of their team. If they do switch you're still a Swift Swimming Mantine and can play around them switching back in.
Gigalith @ Weakness Policy
Careful Nature
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
- Sandstorm
- Stone Edge/ Rock Blast
- Sand Tomb/Stealth Rock
- Protect
If your opponent has a Torkoal or Ninetales open with a pivot and react accordingly.
If they go to Charizard, switch Gigalith straight in. Apart from Focus Blast nothing it can do is threatening in a Sandstorm and you OHKO back. Focus Blast can 2HKO though if it has Specs, but you can punish that with something like Shell Smash Poltergeist or Sub Chandelure that will get free switch in.
If they go back to their weather setter Ninetales is cleanly OHKOd (which does set Sun back up, but you can either manually set Sandstorm back if you're feeling brave, or pivot out to something and come back in). Torkoal takes about half HP from SE, but bad Rock Blast luck will miss the 2HKO even with Sandstorm chip.
If Torkoal stays in hit Sandstorm in his face, you can then try and trap him with Sand Tomb, or go for the (guaranteed after Sandstorm chip) 2HKO. You outspeed it, so Solar Beam is actually just trapping himself.
If they lead with Ninetales and stay in they can't 2HKO you.
The risky one is of course Venusaur and that's where Weakness Policy comes in.
+1 Giga Drain does about 70%, but then you OHKO back with +2 Stone Edge. Rock Blast will OHKO after Life Orb and Sandstorm with 3 hits, so pick your poison between that and SE accuracy, though SE is better for Torkoal. If he doesn't use Growth and instead Giga Drains straight away it can be a 2HKO, but once Sun is down you could switch to something fast to kill him. Don't switch to Talonflame though because Weather Ball will kill you!
He's useful against Darmanitan as well, tanking Flare Blitz (35% from Scarf) and OHKOing back, though it will probably just UTurn.
Shiftry can be handled easily, just switch in and Stone Edge.
So yeah this works!
Another fun lead is Rain Dance Mantine.
Mantine @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Modest Nature
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Surf
- Hurricane
- Whirlpool
- Rain Dance
Lead and Whirlpool into Rain Dance their sun setter. If they don't have some wacky pivoting item they're trapped and die to Surf, then you outspeed and murder swathes of their team. If they do switch you're still a Swift Swimming Mantine and can play around them switching back in.
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The thing is: without Zard and Venusaur, is Sun viable?
I mean, if we ban those two would Sun still be used? Because in the other hand if Drought gets banned at least manual Sun would be worth the shot because of how dangerous the aforementioned mons are under the Sun
I mean, if we ban those two would Sun still be used? Because in the other hand if Drought gets banned at least manual Sun would be worth the shot because of how dangerous the aforementioned mons are under the Sun
I believe not.If venasaur AND charizard both got banned then I don't think sun would be very viable. You just took the sun's fastest abuser and sun's greatest wallbreaker. At the very least sun would definitely not be in the talks of being broken anymore
Yeah sun would definitely take a hit to it's viability. Sun would still be a viable playstyle, as it could be usable with pokemon like darmanitan, shiftry, heliolisk, hatterene, and incineroar, just not as powerful. Could sun STILL be a problem even after venu and zard were banned? Probably not, but in my opinion I kinda feel uncomfortable banning more than 1 pokemon that abuses a playstyle too well. If it makes more than 1 pokemon broken, than the playstyle should be looked at. It's like drizzle, where there are too many abusers that it would be better to just ban the ability instead of a bunch of mons. The same applies here, though to a lesser degree. If more than 1 pokemon become too much from the archetype, which is happening right now, then I think the archetype (drought) is the one that should be looked at and banned
I think banning individual pokemon that abuse a specific archetype is the worst thing and should never be done unless all else fails. Venusaur and Charizard can exist in UU just fine with zero problems without Drought. So if banning Drought means we are keeping two pokemon in the meta, then I think it's better to ban Drought than to load up on more UUBLs. In fact they would even make the UU meta more interesting with people using manual sun teams that aren't as broken as drought. The more variety of options available (that are not totally broken), the more interesting things will be.
The argument here is where do you draw the line?
I would say for sure; if the choice is banning 1 pokemon to preserve an entire ability/playstyle; the answer is to ban the pokemon, as that is clearly the broken area. It's the old 'Speed Boost Blaziken' issue. Speed Boost didn't get banned; Yanmega and Ninjask were not broken, only Blaziken was. If Drought minus Venusaur [or Charizard] is fine, then Drought should remain.
But is a whole team archetype worth banning 2 pokemon? 3? Banning an Ability+Ability combo and several pokemon like Drizzle in Gen 5 OU [Which was still the dominant, and often rather autopilot; playstyle]?
Where is this cutoff where you say the playstyle-enableing ability itself is the problem and not the specific abuser?
I mean, I'd 100% say ban 1 pokemon over an entire playstyle-enableing ability. I'd probobly support 2 pokemon, if it was clear that those two pokemon were so above the cut it made sense. I'd really start heitsateing at 3 pokemon however.
You also need t keep in mind banning an ability makes any other users of said ability unusable in lower tiers. Banning Venusaur dosen't ban Ivysur in RU/NU/PU. Banning Drought removes it from any other pokemon. An ability ban does far more damage overall.
hello I am to looking for some COunters to venasaurs please, tired of fiting sun teams on the pokemonshowdonw ladder but cannot seems to find a reliable countr to use on my teams which my styles is very offensive!! appreicated any and all helps please,,, i do not wants to be reject from UUPLS team asia and rest of worlds becaus i cannot figure solution out...
Umbreon is good, tanks everything even at +2 and Foul Plays back for a big chunk.
I posted a Weakness Policy Gigalith earlier that works well. something like Assault Vest Tyranitar can also work. There aren't a lot of offensive answers tbh. Something like Scarf Barraskewda or Lycanroc can revenge kill with Psychic Fangs?
Otherwise, stall out the sun and revenge kill it.
I posted a Weakness Policy Gigalith earlier that works well. something like Assault Vest Tyranitar can also work. There aren't a lot of offensive answers tbh. Something like Scarf Barraskewda or Lycanroc can revenge kill with Psychic Fangs?
Otherwise, stall out the sun and revenge kill it.
Goodra is also a decent check:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 164-192 (42.8 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
In return goodra can KO it back after venusaur's life orb recoil:
252+ SpA Goodra Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur in Sun: 286-338 (95 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Goodra is also a great check to charizard if you're having trouble with that:
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Sun: 114-135 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 19.6% chance to 3HKO
You can also put more special defense if you want
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 164-192 (42.8 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
In return goodra can KO it back after venusaur's life orb recoil:
252+ SpA Goodra Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur in Sun: 286-338 (95 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Goodra is also a great check to charizard if you're having trouble with that:
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Sun: 114-135 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 19.6% chance to 3HKO
You can also put more special defense if you want
I think it was briefly mentioned earlier, but Dragalge tends to be a great counter to Venusaur, as bar Earth Power (which Venu can struggle to fit), Alge straight up does not care about anything Venu usually does. Meanwhile, Alge has a guaranteed OHKO with Modest Draco, while Sludge Bomb has a 25% chance to OHKO and Wave has a 50% chance. Granted, you should still check to see if it has EP, but if it reveals any status move you're probably safe since Venu isn't giving up STABs + Weather Ball, since it needs WB for Skarm and Zong. Even with EP, you'll be fine as long as come into another attack.
Bar a crit, the 3 staple attacks can only provide the damage necessary for a max-roll EP KO if WB also scores a max roll and if Alge lacks Black Sludge. If Alge has Black Sludge, this combo has a 0% chance to KO without a crit. Keep in mind these calcs were using the old Alge set from USUM RU, which sank some EVs into Speed.
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 195-231 (60.5 - 71.7%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge in Sun: 81-96 (25.1 - 29.8%)
71.7+29.8= 101.5%
With BS, needs to do 106.25%, which it cannot achieve without a crit. Actually giving Alge SpD investment further dilutes this chance.
Bar a crit, the 3 staple attacks can only provide the damage necessary for a max-roll EP KO if WB also scores a max roll and if Alge lacks Black Sludge. If Alge has Black Sludge, this combo has a 0% chance to KO without a crit. Keep in mind these calcs were using the old Alge set from USUM RU, which sank some EVs into Speed.
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 195-231 (60.5 - 71.7%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge in Sun: 81-96 (25.1 - 29.8%)
71.7+29.8= 101.5%
With BS, needs to do 106.25%, which it cannot achieve without a crit. Actually giving Alge SpD investment further dilutes this chance.
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I think is worth to mention that Torkoal and Ninetal would definitely rise to UU, so what happens in the lower tiers with Drought doesn't really matters (Besides, I think PU and NU already banned Drought...)
For me, there is no specific line to be drawn. You just have to look at the whole situation and see what the main issue is. If only one or two pokemon are very OP with the ability (Venusaur and Charizard), but 3-4 others are still very very good with it, then you probably need to ban the ability that is enabling the playstyle to move forward.
But, there's another issue with banning things like Venusaur + Charizard instead of Drought. An argument can be made that, by NOT banning Drought and instead banning Venusaur and Charizard, you are actually KILLING sun teams because nobody will really think it's worth to run a sun team without either of those two. While there other things like Shiftry/Heliolisk that can do good damage, it just isn't that much of a threat compared to having Venusaur + Charizard. But if you keep Venusaur + Charizard, you can still have sun teams using Sunny Day + Heat Rock on a support pokemon, and still keep things interesting. I think a lot of people will still try to use sun teams with Sunny Day as long as they can use Venusaur and Charizard with it, and it would be a lot more manageable and less centralizing.
So, by trying to save sun teams and banning a pokemon instead of Drought, you may actually be hurting the entire sun team archetype by removing the pokemon that make it viable. That is what I think should be considered moreso than "how many does it take" etc. The most important thing to me is to promote a variety of options, as long as they are all reasonable and not broken.
https://pokepast.es/c1a559ee083beec9
A Diggersby team I've been using. I think Diggersby fits nicely on Volt Turn teams, both Choice Band and Choice Scarf, but if you run Band that gives you room to get another Scarfer (Magneton or Rotom form usualy) so you have a lot of speed control because you can run Quick Attack on CB Diggersby too.
The main reason why I hope our council bans Diggersby is because it forces so many 50/50s it makes a lot of games feel like guesswork. A secondary reason is because it has essentially no solid defensive counter play, even Tangela and Skarmory can be quickly killed by sets already discussed or at least greatly weakened if they try to counter Diggersby once so they can no longer check him.
A Diggersby team I've been using. I think Diggersby fits nicely on Volt Turn teams, both Choice Band and Choice Scarf, but if you run Band that gives you room to get another Scarfer (Magneton or Rotom form usualy) so you have a lot of speed control because you can run Quick Attack on CB Diggersby too.
The main reason why I hope our council bans Diggersby is because it forces so many 50/50s it makes a lot of games feel like guesswork. A secondary reason is because it has essentially no solid defensive counter play, even Tangela and Skarmory can be quickly killed by sets already discussed or at least greatly weakened if they try to counter Diggersby once so they can no longer check him.
Actually, there is a line, but it's really hard to pinpoint. Banning Drought to preserve Venusaur and Charizard was done for abilities like Moody and Shadow Tag and even moves like Baton Pass.
It's not as simple as "two Pokémon becomes banworthy with Drought, so Drought is the problem". Why don't we just ban Hustle to preserve Durant and Dracozolt when those two are proven to be bamworthy only with Hustle? This logic also carries on to moves and items.
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